The Hidden Identity Of Elias Revealed? feat. Bruce Porter

So, who is "Elias?" Is it John the Baptist? Is it just the Greek version of the name Elijah? Is it Noah? Is it all of them? But ultimately, who is the "Elias" who visited the Kirtland Temple in Section 110 of the Doctrine and Covenants and restored the keys of the Gospel of the Dispensation of Abraham? Bruce Porter joins Greg to give his idea on who this elusive character is.

Isn't there a "Spirit of Elias" and a "Spirit of Elijah?"

 Raw Transcript

but the last person in that dispensation of Abraham that would have the authority
of the gospel of the dispensation of Abraham is so who is Elias i've had a lot of people recommend different
prophets different names none of it really sounded right often times I would cross reference these names with section
138 section 110 uh going back and looking at could it be Noah could it be
John the Baptist that they're talking about here in uh in Matthew and and in
Mark is it It's very confusing because then you have the JST which goes in and explain some things but then kind of
comes back and says "No wait a minute the Elias I'm talking about here are actually two maybe two different people." Finally a good friend of mine
and I've never had this discussion with him before we were having this discussion in Egypt and and all of a
sudden this came up and I was like why have we never talked about this before this is the best solution that I have
ever heard is from Bruce Porter remember it's got to be the keys of the gospel of
Abraham and the dispensation from the dispensation of Abraham and it's not
Elijah although we translate that in the Greek over to Elias it's not the prophet Elijah because Elijah shows up at
Kirtland in section 110 but then so does Elias along with Moses of course and
Christ so it gets very very muddy but maybe in this discussion you're finally
going to have some clarity on really who this very well may be it's very surprising but then when you really
think about it it's not surprising now this episode is brought to you by Go and
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go all
right welcome to Quick Show my name is Greg Matson and I am your host in this episode we have brought back again Bruce
Porter bruce you have been gone forever how are you doing i'm doing well Greg it's good to be home and it's good to be
with you again so yeah three months wow that's that's a lot of time out of the country i mean that's I did two of those
months and I I was I was pretty much done so that's impressive um okay so we
want to talk about Elias here this is something that is has intrigued me for so long while we were gone on those two
months you had brought something up to me that I had never thought about we're going to get to that in a minute but
it's there is a it's it's very muddy between the scriptures the writings of
Joseph Smith uh exactly who Elias is we
we know that Elias is an individual we know that he's the one that's going to restore the the gospel of Abraham and or
the dispensation of Abraham and and yet we also know that there is a spirit of Elias that is one who comes before
someone and and prepares the way i've even heard writings uh talk about Jesus being an Elias in some ways and so
there's it's very muddy here and I want to go over that a little bit with you and then we're going to get to uh get
get to what you have to say about your theory on on who Elias is because it's very interesting i want to start in
Matthew 11 in Matthew 11 here this is uh when Jesus is is talking about John the
Baptist being more than a prophet and when I share that here you see here it says that but but what went ye out for
to see a prophet yay I say unto you and more than a prophet talking about John the Baptist this is Christ stop talking
for this is he of whom it is written behold I send my messenger before thy
face so there's the word messenger which shall prepare thy way
before thee this is the way we talk about John the Baptist here right yeah verily I say unto you among them that
are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist notwithstanding he that is least in the
kingdom of heaven is greater than he talking about Jesus's teachings about the the least among you is the greatest
among you and vice versa and then he says this "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven
suffereth violence and the violent take it by force for all the prophets and the law prophesied until John and then here
it comes and if you will receive it this is Elias which was for to come okay so
there's a prophecy then obviously of they're prophesying about it seems like they're prophesying about John you can
talk about this in in in uh uh Zechariah in Malachi you can talk or Malachi and
and Isaiah at least that that speak of him um but he's being spoken of as Elias
here where is this correct in the sense that you understand it is he Elias or is
he given a title of Elias i think it's title even you know there's a lot of in
scripture there's a lot of um um there's a lot of titles mentioned you know is is
Michael a position or is it a title or can it be both you know when Adam's on the earth does Michael appear to Adam
and there's many texts that say he does so that might be a a position where and we know that Adam is Michael or Michael
is Adam but yet when Adam is here there's many texts that talk about Michael appearing to Adam so is someone
filling that position uh while Adam is here is Gabriel the
Archangel Gabriel around if Noah's on the earth so so can is is it a is it a
position that can be filled but uh but a person at the same time mhm so you might
say the spirit of Michael but yet there is a Michael which is Adam you know the spirit of Gabriel
but you know there's a real Gabriel which is Noah so I think that's what we're looking at here well we might
separate or uh make a difference between Elias the person and the spirit of Elias
the the messenger okay so we're going to qualify this right now for you
then John the Baptist is not the Elias that is going to show up in Kirtland i
don't believe so and I believe and and I and I believe there's there's a connection to what's said in
Kirtland that makes that very apparent that he's a real person okay so now I want to back over to the other Gospel of
Mark here and this is the uh transfiguration this is what it says here in uh in Mark 9 after 6 days Jesus
taketh with him Peter James and John not John the Baptist the the disciple the
apostle and leadth them up into a high mountain apart by themselves and he was transfigured before them and his
raignment became shining exceedingly white as snow so as no fuller on earth
can white them and then and there appeared unto them Elias with
Moses and they were talking with Jesus and Peter answered and said to Jesus
"Master it it is good it is good for us to be here and let us make three
tabernacles one for thee and one for Moses and one for Elias." The common
theme here or assumption here is that what we're talking about is John the Baptist and and it's very easy to see
this except for one little caveat that we're going to get in Joseph Smith translation
but again here just again here you're still saying that this Elias is not John
the Baptist you know in my in my in my opinion it probably isn't but he's one to prepare we even know that um within
um within Jewish tradition there's an Elijah that's supposed to come and prepare the way for the second coming
it's another muddy point and and Elijah uh even though it's a different person
Elijah is is one that must come in order for that preparation for that second
coming to come and even within their Passover they would they the Jewish families will leave the door open an
empty seat at the table for because it's believed that Elijah shall come before the end which
is a type of preparation too which Malachi talks about when he speaks of Elijah yes elijah has to come in order
for this to happen so so there's many interpretations and this could be one of
those that you brought up just a few minutes ago that this Elias is that's on the mount of
transfiguration like in section 110 of the Doctrine of Covenants is may have
reference to Elijah also and it seems when we get here to the Joseph Smith translation here in just a second it
seems like there's a little bit lacking here in in these texts oh I would I
would assume so yeah yeah it's it it muddies things even more as we go through this but it's it just seems like
it's a little bit like like something's missing here on this uh so you've got
Moses Elias and Jesus here that would have the tabernacles created now when we go to uh Matthew 17 I'm going to go over
it again here this is again the uh the transfiguration right going to verse one here and after 6 days Jesus taketh Peter
James and John his brethren bringeth him up into a high a high mountain apart and was transfigured before them his face
did shine and then we get this in three and behold there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him and
then they say well you know this is good for us to be here in verse four if thou wilt let us make here three tabernacles
one for thee and one for Moses and one for Eli so we've already got from from Mark now if we come down a little further here okay then we come down we
come down to 10 it says "And his disciples asked him saying why then say the scribes that Elias must come first?"
Now here's the question because are they talking about Elijah and this is just the Greek translation of that because
the Jews believe that Elijah was going to come first yeah in my opinion it is Elijah and and and the reason I think
that is is because of Luke 4:25 and that's in in in Luke chapter 4
it's it's telling you that the Elias is Elijah because it's using the history of
Elijah and making that connection to to Elias
oh yeah okay this is now Okay uh 25 yeah but I tell you of a truth many widows
were in Israel widows were in Israel in the days of Elias when the heavens shut
up three years and six months when great famine was throughout all the land but
that's a direct connection to Elijah yeah so they're to they're using the name Elias it's just the Greek version
of Elijah here this is it's so convoluted it's it is a little muddy
because you've got you've got the the Greek translation here then you have the tradition here as you're saying it's
it's it's it's Elijah that is going to be the one kind of to prepare the way for g for the
Messiah for the Jewish tradition and and that's the in Greek
that's Elias yes right and so you get a lot of a lot of people that are will uh
criticize Joseph Smith saying well he just doesn't understand what's going on he didn't know that Elias was the Greek
version of Elijah as he goes through this and talks about separating the spirit of Elias and the spirit of Elijah
as if they're two different people and and callings or mantles or whatever you want to call it well just just if you
think of Malachi is if you think of Malachi's reference that Elijah must come or else the earth
would be utterly wasted at his coming see it's a it's preparatory to the
coming we Elijah must come and restore what he's going to restore or else the earth would be
utterly wasted at his at Christ's coming so there he's coming he's coming across
also Elijah is with a with a spirit if you will of Elias or as an Elias and I
think that's what that's the way I interpret there can be the Elias and
someone as an Elias yeah yeah so Elijah is an Elias and that's what it's telling
us here in Luke Luke chapter 4 yeah exactly yeah okay but unto none of them
was Elias sent unto Sarupta a city of Siden unto a woman that was a widow it's
obviously Elijah here yeah yeah without question yeah this is the question this is the the example of the Old Testament
okay so then I I want to go to the back to Matthew 17 and clarify this a little
bit because Joseph Smith says something here and you're like "Oh he's going toward John the Baptist here on this mount of transfiguration and then boom
something changes." Yeah and it could be that Jesus was talking about two
different people and the translation or the even the oldest transcripts remove
one of them because we'll see here what Joseph Smith does it's very interesting all
right so if we come in here and and look and he says okay verse this is verse 10 in the JST of Matthew it says "And Jesus
answered and said unto them Elias truly shall first come and restore all things
as the prophets have written." Well number one John the Baptist doesn't restore all things right and the
prophets are talking about those in the Old Testament and I think spec specifically about Malachi yeah exactly
he said he said John the Baptist doesn't have the authority to restore all things right jesus actually things at that time
yeah okay then verse 11 and again I say unto you that Elias has come already
concerning whom it is written so if we think about how this is going with Joseph Smith's translation on this he's
saying look Elias will come and restore all things
in other words there is one Elias that will come and restore all things and let me explain how this term Elias works and
Elias someone else will has come already that's how it seems to me he's like look
you don't understand what Elias is or what Elijah is you don't you're not understanding how this works that's what
it seems like he's saying here because then he fills in quite a bit here and he says concerning whom it is written
"Behold I will send my messenger and he shall prepare the way before me." That's John the
Baptist right that is John the Baptist and they knew him not this is from Isaiah 40 and have done unto him
whatsoever they listed well that's still sounds like John the Baptist you're like
"Oh okay joseph Smith believes at the m on the mount of transfiguration." This was John the Baptist but then he goes in
and he says "Likewise shall also the son of man suffer of them." So John the Baptist died he uh uh
Jesus is going to die and then he goes on and says this in the last two verses but I say unto you who is Elias behold
this is Elias whom I send to prepare the way before me so again this is John the Baptist right then the disciples
understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist this doesn't mean that John the Baptist was on the Mount of
Transfiguration no and then he finishes off and says "And also of
another who should come and restore all things." Like it starts off in the first
verse here uh verse 10 I think it was as it was wr as it is written by the
prophets and see and I and I think and that's it's mo John the Baptist was
a preparatory Elias before Christ comes in the flesh
elijah is a preparatory Elias before Christ comes at the second coming one is
the first coming one is the second coming both with the spirit of Elias yeah you you've got to really read this
closely and this JST is essential I think to the Mount of Transfiguration
to understand this jesus is explaining all of it together here in a
sense he's explaining the spirit of Elias and he is separating two
individuals that are given the term or mantle or calling of Elias yes with with
two different comeings there there's there's Christ's first coming and Christ second coming
yes and there's an Elias in each one involved in each one one is John the
Baptist an ironic authority another is Elijah a mechazdic authority yes yeah
yeah exactly that's that's really interesting okay so we're going to go a little further here down this rabbit
hole and and uh let's get here first i want to go first
to 138 here from Joseph F smith and Joseph
F smith's talking about his vision and then he comes down to talking about who he actually sees gathered together here
uh in the spirit world right says uh he sees he sees the faithful spirits
of the prophets who had testified of him in the flesh of Jesus Christ uh and then he comes down among the great and mighty
ones who were assembled in this vast congregation of the righteous were father Adam the ancient of days that's
another interesting thing because Jesus is also called the ancient of days at times that's a title of some sort it has
a meaning of something and father of all and our glorious mother Eve with many of
her daughters who had lived through the ages and worshiped the true and living God abel is there seth is there one of
the mighty ones who was in the express image of his fa his father Adam uh Noah right this is important
because I've heard this several times people saying that Noah might be Elias
i probably heard this at least a half a dozen times from smart people but
138 doesn't lean toward that right so Noah who gave warning of the bl of the flood Shem the great high priest this is
one reason why some people think that Shem is Melzdc abraham the father of the
faithful Isaac Jacob and Moses the great lawgiver okay okay then we have
Isaiah Ezekiel Daniel and then Elias so
you you have you it is not Noah noah's already listed here so I know that's
kind of one of the rumors that's out there one of the things that people study and and grab on to but Elias is
separate from Noah right who was with Moses on the mount of transfiguration
okay so this is this is another sticky thing because you can say okay well is
this John the Baptist then because he was called an Elias right malachi is there who
testified of the coming of Elijah now this is interesting because it's not
Elijah who's on the who's uh with Elijah right this is already you're you're
speaking of Elias here and then you're talking about Elijah so Joseph Smith is
making a distinction between the calling and person of Elias and the prophet
Elijah right he's got them written separately as two individuals that are there in the
spirit world in this vision right and on the mount of transfiguration too and on the mount of transfiguration as well uh
and then of whom Moroni spake to the prophet Joseph Smith and that's of course from Malachi 4 we know that this
is Elijah here in that reference the prophet Elijah was to plant in the hearts of the children the promises made
to their fathers okay so this is going to go into about sealing in the temples and and work for the dead etc etc so
notice in notice in 46 that he's saying that Elijah is a preparatory the end of
46 he's saying that he's really he's he has to come before the ushering in see
that's a preparatory for Elijah so declaring that he should come before the ushering in of the great and dreadful
day of the Lord so Elijah here again confirming he will act as an Elias exactly now the question is who's the
Elias that comes with Moses in 45 that or that Yeah who's the Elias that comes
in in five and and one thing that you know we we've already talked about here is the issue of if it's John the Baptist
and and if they're talk if the pillars that they're talking about and the only names mentioned Elias and and Elijah
right then and Jesus of course then and there's only three pillars here's the issue if John the
Baptist is on the Mount of Transfiguration and one of the purposes there is to pass keys perhaps in some
way or something's going on there well John the Baptist doesn't have a body
john the Baptist has not been transfigured or or translated we know Elijah was so he's there with a
body and but John the Baptist lost his head so he he can only be there in
spirit if it's him right so that seems to me like an issue yeah yeah it would
have to be it would have to be an issue or or they're both there and Elias or
they're both there sure and then Elijah along with
Moses which which might along with Moses sorry that's the other yeah along with Moses so there might be a uh
um a might be like in Joseph Smith translation why he is talking about the
two different people also because they might have been there in the transfiguration and and Elijah and an
Elias yeah then the question is is how far does the spirit or keys of Elias go
can somebody hold the keys of Elias without being the Elias
right and I think they can because of what we have in section 110 there's keys
passed okay so we're going to get to uh section 110 here
now uh so this is at Kirtland talking about different vision a vision that they Who is it in this
who's having this vision it is it is is it Oliver Cowry in here also it's Joseph and Oliver it's Joseph and Oliver in the
Kirtland Temple yeah and Okay so here in verse 11 okay after well first of all he's coming in here and he's talking
about uh is it Jesus first um yes it is i
believe it is uh Jehovah the voice of Jehovah i am he who liveth i am your advocate with the father okay and I will
manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house and and uh then we get here and
after this vision closed the heavens were again opened unto us and Moses appeared before us it's kind of
interesting because this is another character that is at the mount of transfiguration right mhm and committed
unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth and the leading of the 10 tribes from the land of the
north after this Elias appeared and we're going to know in a second again
there's a distinction here between Elias and Elijah and committed the dispensation of the gospel of
Abraham okay so you can't just say the gospel of Abraham it's the dispensation
which would lead you to believe this is someone that is part of that dispensation otherwise why would be they
be the ones that are assigned to bring these keys back to Joseph exactly right okay saying that in
us and and our seed all generations after us should be blessed and then
verse 13 after this vision had closed another great and glorious vision burst upon us for Elijah the prophet who was
taken to heaven uh without tasting death right he had a
he had a body stood before us and said "Behold the time has fully come." which was spoken by the mouth of Malachi
testifying that he Elijah should be sent before the great and dead uh dreadful
day of the Lord come and then we get the uh paraphrasing at least of of Malachi 4
here uh with the fathers to the hearts turning to the children and the children of the fathers lest the whole earth be
smitten with a curse which is all tied into the temple here okay so the keys of
this dispensation are committed into your hands and by this ye may know that
the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near even at the doors okay
so Bruce for some here we've probably muddied the waters even further you look
through this but it is a conundrum but I think you've got a a very good idea of
how to clarify this so why don't you go over that a little okay my feeling is
those who pass keys are generally the last of the dispensation or the last or
the the final one that holds those keys are the ones that has responsible responsibility to pass them on moses has
the keys of the gathering elijah has the keys of sealing and and this Elias
that's talked about here in section 110 of the Doctrine of Covenants has the keys of the dispensation of the gospel
of Abraham well there's an interest there's an interesting connection if you look at the at the time period of
Abraham or that dispensation of Abraham that dispensation of Abraham the last person in that dispensation really and
it's mentioned in 138 because uh President Smith sees he sees that Elias
and Moses see there's there's a connection between Elias and Moses now
we're seeing a connection here in section 110 of Elias is from the dispensation of Abraham making a
connection to the dispensation of Moses see there's there's still a double connection there but but the last person
in that dispensation of Abraham that would have the authority of the gospel
of the dispensation of Abraham is Joseph now
Joseph there has never and Joseph even says to his brother and he says when
they when they know who he is he says "You meant it for evil but God meant it for good."
Joseph is what he's saying is I was sent as a forerunner into
Egypt to be where I am in order for your temporal
salvation in order to save you is what he's saying is I was sent as a
forerunner i was sent as an Elias and I don't think it's as an an Elias i think
Joseph is the Elias that's talked about here in the Kirtland Temple i think at least that's
my opinion i think that Elias that commits that gives the keys of the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham is
the last of that of the Abrahamic dispensation and that last person who
was and could not have been a better forerunner or a better person to prepare
the way for the salvation of Israel uh couldn't be anybody better than Joseph himself and and those are the
keys I think that we see being passed now a resurrected being being passed to
Joseph in the Kirtland Temple well what's interesting is is you know when when we I think when we really
understand the scriptures and we understand where the Book of Mormon comes from and what the legacy is there of of
that those two tribes of Manasseh and Ephraim going back to Joseph it's then the legacy of Joseph
who I think has a lot to do with the brass plates but it's it's then the legacy of Joseph that is the one that is
preserving the gospel and in a
sense preparing the way even in this
dispensation to be able to gather Israel with the Book of Mormon well just just just think of what the dispensation of
the Gospel of Abraham gives us it's the covenant of Abraham that has to come
forward it's that covenant of Abraham and that's talked about in the very in
the second paragraph of the title page of the Book of Mormon yeah that second parage is talking about those covenants
the blessings of the fathers you know it's talked about and then and it's establishing the covenant of Abraham and
and that's that's what's bringing the keys from the covenant of Abraham into
our dispensation because it's the last person of that dispensation of Abraham
who was a forerunner for the salv temporal salvation now given to Joseph Smith to
be the forerunner for their spiritual salvation before Christ comes which is the same thing we were just
talking about here if you go back to actually Joseph's life exactly and being the forerunner there it was Moses then
later that is the one that's going to give the keys to gather Israel exactly and so you've got you've got really the
the the the primary tool for gathering Israel is the Book of Mormon the legacy of
Joseph which is a forerunner so to speak to gather Israel again which are the keys given by Moses yeah so that they
can know the covenants of the father fathers as it says in that title page so that they know that they are not cast
off yeah that's fascinating and I don't know
why I've never thought of that before i'm not smart and that's just my thinking it doesn't mean that it's right but yeah but because of section 110 we
have Elijah there and we have the dispensation the keys of the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham
given by an by the Elias who has to be part of that
dispensation and the greatest forerunner who becomes a pattern joseph is that
greatest forerunner for their salvation and I think he becomes the pattern and the spirit of Elias after that after
that point yeah that's fascinating i think the more we learn about these things the the
reason I lean into that is not just because it comes from you but because I
the more we learn about the history of the church and and
we learn about the legacy of Joseph it it it becomes larger and larger this
idea about the Josephites and and you know the the northern kingdom and a lot of things that were hidden from us and
that were not given to us in in the Old Testament for example but did were in the in the in the brass plates and this
legacy of Joseph over and over again just comes back and we need to realize I think that that Book of Mormon for
example is is the stick of Joseph it it it is Jo
Joseph joseph plays such an important part because he is the patriarch for all
of the children of Israel which means it passes to the responsibility passes to Ephraim and Manasseh which means Joseph
is responsible for the temporal and spiritual welfare of Israel joseph is
responsible for the gathering of Israel joseph is responsible to make sure that those covenants pass from the
dispensation of Abraham or the covenant of Abraham joseph is respons responsible to make sure that those covenants of
Abraham passed to the rest of the children of Israel and even within Jewish traditions they have two Messiahs
they have Messiah Ben Judah which we know is Jesus Christ and they have Messiah Ben Joseph
yes which is connected to Joseph that was sold into Egypt hence you have the stick of Judah and the stick of Joseph
messiah Benjudah messiah Ben Joseph and Joseph even in the Book of Mormon from
the record of Joseph which is those bl brass plates you're talking of we have the prophecies of Joseph about the
Joseph a descendant of his at the last days that will be a forerunner also to Christ which will have to hold all these
keys yeah another thing that that kind of fits right into this is you know in that
Exodus a lot of the Jews still even today consider that the whatever held
the the bones of Joseph that were carried before them along with the ark
of the covenant was another ark it was like a second ark to them and the other
ark which is the throne of God but it's really full of the the the
the objects of Moses yes it's right where and then you've got the bones of
Joseph right so you've got these two arcs coming out of Egypt it's the national treasures every every nation in
order to exist as a nation must have national treasures there's certain national treasures that are there and we
see the the the national treasures that make Israel a nation are what's carried in that ark you know the mana the rod of
Aaron you know the the tablets the Nephites have national treasures too that give them an identity the plates
the sword of Laban the Leona you know the these are national treasures that prove they existed and prove that God is
leading and that God is directing them that God is protecting them that God is giving them his word
each nation has their n must have national treasures to create a name for themselves and those national treasures
in both instances are connected to Joseph
yeah that's that's fascinating we are we are a product in many ways of that
legacy of Joseph i think very much so in the church and I don't think we think about that enough and and it's uh it's
it's a you know h having the Gentiles or the Ephraimite Gentiles and Manassite
Gentiles well they're not usually called the Gentiles but the Ephraimite Gentiles and the and Manasseh and considering
that gathering and then ultimately ultimately
eventually closing that gap with the Jews right to gather everybody it's it's
it's those two sides you know that's always existed it's always been there when when when the kingdoms were split
it was the kingdom of Judah and the kingdom of really of Ephraim right the north of Ephraim and and Manasseh the
kingdom of Joseph so to speak and that Yeah and in the north you're right and
so it's it's it it's very very interesting very interesting stuff i love that you brought this up to me i'm
glad I I thought I've never heard this from you before i'm so glad that I asked you uh because I read it completely
differently when I go through this now understanding that yeah this just might be Joseph that we're talking about here
yeah there it there has to be a connection to the dispensation of Abraham and that connection is usually
that key keygiving connection is usually the last prophet in that dispensation
yeah that's awesome well more mental and spiritual chewing gum here for everybody that's what it is to go through and and
and and read these things go back to Matthew uh Matthew 11 Mark 9 Matthew 17
Doctrine of Covenants 138 uh Luke 4 and and go to the JST that's really one
that's important there and and read the last portion of the last verse in the
JST Matthew 17 and then of course Kirtland at uh section 110 so Bruce so
much so many interesting things here really appreciate it um and for the audience go out and study this see what
you think study it and comment on it it'd be interesting to to see what people think about this concept but I
appreciate I really do thanks Bruce appreciate it you bet thank you