The Truth About Mormon Feminism

Celene Anderson joins Greg to talk about recent, salacious posts made by the Mormon Feminist Group, Exponent II. She draws the large distinction between the 19th century Mormon Women's paper, Exponent, and the current posts and publishing of today's radical feminist organization. Why 19th-century LDS women sounded nothing like today’s activist script. The uncomfortable history modern Mormon feminism doesn’t want to touch. Why the nation didn’t know what to do with Mormon women who could vote.

 Raw Transcript:

So lately, Exponent 2 as an example of new radical Mormon feminism has come out
with some pretty crazy things. And Selene Anderson comes on with us and talks about the original Exponent, the
publication from the Mormon women of the 19th century who had motherhood at the
center of their world, but also wanted to contribute to society. It's a stark,
stark difference that you'll be interested in seeing. How did it all go sideways? What role did polygamy play in
the 19th century? And how about the early Utah suffrage? It's the uncomfortable history that modern Mormon
feminism just doesn't want to touch. This episode is brought to you by Wavemakers podcaster cruise. Coming this
November 14th to 21st. We had a great time last November. Hundreds of Latter-day Saints gathering together.
what is a an a growing developing very quickly online community is able to come
together with these podcasters, these influencers and have a great time for a week. We're going up the California
coast. We've got Hayden Jackson Paul from Stick of Joseph Cardinellis from Ward Radio, Jacob Hansen from Thoughtful
Faith, Andrea Woodmancy, Hannah Stoddard, Jonah Barnes, Kevin Prince, Arana Condi, Sarah Clark, and more. Go
to quickdia.com up to the top to trips and events and scroll down to Wavemakers 26. It's a blast. It's an incredible
experience. We'll see you there. Here we go with Selene.
[music]
[music] All right, welcome to Quick Show. My name is Greg Matson and I am your host. In this episode, we bring back Selene
Anderson to talk about polygamy and and feminism. This is going to be fun. Again, um I want to talk I I want to
look at uh maybe a little bit of an evolutionary arc. I don't know, a developmental arc in what has gone on
since the 20th century with Mormonism and feminism and women to where we are
today. We've got great examples to kind of contrast these things, I think, between
publications that were put out in the 19th century and then publications that we get out today. Can you talk about
that? By the way, welcome back to the show. Thank you so much. No, happy to be here. So, um, I really love, um, I'm a huge
fan of the original woman's exponent from the 19th century, which was a publication by Latter-day Saint women,
faithful Latter-day Saint women that talked about they were defending the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints, their practice and testimonies of polygamy and also women's right to
suffrage and women's white rights generally. And those things actually really went hand in hand very handily
and in a way that was even at the time was fairly unique amongst the Latter-day
Saints. Um there's certain like just in their writings looking at Eliza Arseno
and the ways that they are fully incorporating and understanding like
women holistically uh in a way that's elevating um and also
doesn't forget motherhood um over time right as there are certain things like I
we we evolve in ways that have like costs and benefits right um obviously
the discontinuation of plural marriage um and also kind of a need to really um
you know be accepted and not be treated violently by the greater American people
uh is like a is a high is a high priority rightfully so. Um and I think
that there are a lot of like uh good things. I mean there's there's so much
that gets complicated where in the directions that kind of secular feminism
was starting to go uh that kind of caused a bit of a retrenchment of like let's disavow
um feminism rather than like reclaiming it. And we say we see the same thing in
terms of fundamentalists running off with polygamy, right? And so it's like let's disavow that a little
bit. And I would say the same thing happened with feminism. Um let me ask you this. So so putting it
into into a uh a framework of globally and then even within the United within
within the Latterday Saints. So first of all with the exponent and those involved with the exponent in the 19th century
were they viewed by the broader Latter-day Saints is kind of a little radical? Were they viewed as, oh no, we
want to totally support them? Where did the prophets and the brethren sit with all of this at the time? And and then
you go broader and you see that there are feminist movements going on. I mean, if you look over all the way to like Marxism,
Yep. and and Engles who are desperately trying to say, well, let's dissolve the family a little bit here and put loyalty
to the state instead. Um, very different type of of of approach to what the
Latter-day Saint women were doing in Utah. Uh the brother and were like really on board with women's rights uh within the
context of Mormonism and how we were approaching it. Like Joseph F. Smith in a general relief society meeting is
addressing the wage gap and is like women should be paid the same as men for the same labor and women are given
callings to go and be doctors. Um they're encouraged to get educations. um
Elizabeth Kaine when she's going through Utah uh she's like there's no job that seems to be denied women to be able to
achieve and also there's this commemoration and this veneration of motherhood um and how these things are
still are are bound together right it's not like go have a job and don't be a
mother it's like no you can have there is this mechanism of wanting to elevate the status of
women and believing that part of the restoration was this um removal of the curse of Eve. Um the when we were going
through like the state constitution like the church's like official stance was
we're in favor of including women's suffrage in the state constitution and BH Roberts was like well guys like we've
been denied so many times maybe this is a little bit risky and everyone was like shut up [laughter] and they were like
don't say like there was some really forceful from men and women um saying no
no no this is a high priority for all of us. Um, and so yeah, it was
pretty it was pretty much like mainstream and yes, there's like some
nuance there, but it's like it was a high priority and was part of the
restoration. It's how they viewed. I mean, we have a heavenly mother. Women were involved in the temple. Um, women
have the relief society. Uh, they're doing all this really, really great work. And despite what people think
about Brigham Young, Brigham Y. Young had a lot of really positive things to say about women and believe in the
capacities of women um and also like taking abuses done to women very
seriously. Um which is part of why some recent articles are particularly offensive to me that
let's go back. I want to stay back here in the 19th century for a second. So what about among do we know how this
was viewed from the broader United States? The broader United States like did not
know what to do with Mormon women. They were like but polygamy but women like it was just kind of like an oddity. Um so
you have um at like the national women suffrage association conference once there's three women who go out I know um
one is a doctor one is like Zina who was like a religious leader and like speaker
and healer and I to the other two were doctors and all three of them could vote at the time
and they go out and everyone is kind of like ostracizing them and it was like these weird polygamous women like we
don't want them here. And it's like they have more rights than anyone else in the room. Um and it's just kind of an irony
where they just don't take uh these Mormon women seriously, which has
continued throughout all of history in terms of how Latter Day Saint women are viewed. How it's viewed. Yeah. Both inside and
outside of the church. Yes. But so so at the time then, so you have uh women that have more rights than
pretty much anybody else. They're polygamous though. But the narrative is always going to be, you know, from the press at the time is always it's always
about, you know, the two the two barbaric evils, right, which were slavery at the time before this and
and and and polygamy and that's what they've got to get rid of. Uh, what about
was it this is this is a little bit of a lightning rod question, but
was it polygamy that allowed the women to have these
rights naturally and organically as a community to help push for this?
In my opinion, yes. There are people who don't think that that's the case. Um, for example, I was talking to a woman uh
and she was talking about how these two women um owned a like a dairy business
together and she's like, "I really really love that, but I really hate polygamy and I feel like they could have
done that and had their own husbands." And I kind of was like, "Are you sure?"
Because by having their own individual households, you've now doubled their domestic labor. So, I'm not sure that
they would then have the bandwidth to contribute to a career in that way. Um,
and so I just think it's interesting when people will talk about the timeline of like look at all of the things these
19th century Latter Day Saint women were doing and like the timeline of when that kind of stopped or was rolled back just
happens to to kind of be along the same lines as when polygamy was discontinued. Um, and so I just think that that is odd
and worth noting. I will say also to um, Susan B. Ananony's credit and Elizabeth
Catty Stanton, while they were like weirded out by polygamy, both of them were just they were anti-marriage in
general feminists. And so they ended up just coming to the conclusion of like,
well, is polygamy really any like different or worse than monogamy? And so
they kind of just got over it um to a degree, but they also were careful um in
terms of because they knew it was more offensive to uh
um eastern um American women. And so, but I mean Susan Banthony and uh Emiline
Be Wells like were best friends. Not best friends, but like they were really close friends where when she died, Susan
bequeafd like one of her rings to um Emily. Emily. Yeah. And like the women
of Utah gifted Susan Banthony a silk dress and she called it her Utah dress
and like they they were in regular correspondence and were very much like
friendly with one another. So it seems that based on what you're saying that that one of the vast differences between
what we might call let's just call it I I don't know if I have a harder time with feminism being called that
I would call it anti-natalism to be honest. That was my question was it seems like
motherhood is still right at the center of and family is right at the center of
what these LDS women were talking about. Absolutely. Yeah. And that's why I think that a lot of more secular feminist
perspectives, they they get at the point where it's like, okay, well, what really
differentiates women from men and is a cost that women pay is in childirth and
child rearing. And so sometimes the solution is like, well, let's just eradicate that from a woman's life. No
marriage, no motherhood. And I think that that is completely counter to like
what women actually want. It is not usual. It is unusual for a woman to not
want children. I'm not saying that that doesn't happen, but like that is a natural just instinct, you know, whether
you're religious or not. It's just evolutionarily like the the desire to reproduce and to have children is part
of is part of a natural biological longing and it's something that women want. And so any sort of advancement of
women's rights that does not factor in motherhood is completely is not equipped
to handle the demands of what is ultimately going to serve women. Okay. So you've got this going on with
the Latter- Day Saint women, a specific type of women's movement, we'll call it. And and then outside of that, you've
still got this kind of again, I mean, if you go to Europe, you've got Marxon, especially angles, who's who trying to
really change some things in Europe and how a woman is viewed and she needs to be a worker, a laborer, and very career
centered and and uh and state centered, right? And that starts to leak over a little bit with the United States also.
But it's it's today now it seems to me
like that we have a very different feminist movement, Mormon feminist
movement than what we had back in the 19th century with with the publication
of of the exponent. Yes. Right. It's it's very contrasted where they've brought in these again these
European philosoph philosophies that are anti-f family I believe and
pro-state and and completely twisted this into something completely different
but still trying to appeal to it at the same time. Yeah. And I think that it's like it's a
um like it's a hijacking of what I think the ultimate ideal is. I think that you
can say the same thing about looking at the law of consecration and the united order and the ideals with that and like
communism you know where it's like these have different roots um but it becomes
this kind of like it's almost like a satanic inversion right and we see this a lot of different ways I mean we could
say the same thing of um I just feel like a lot of times we let terms get
stolen from us um and there are some that we are fighting back on like right so like Christians evangelicals are like
you're not Christians and it's like yes we are we're just not you you know and so we're allowed to reclaim that um
we're like fundamentalists taking like plural marriage and and defining it and
saying this is our thing now it's like no no no you are doing like an an
inversion what you're doing is corrupt and we are allowed to reclaim that and I
would say the same thing about feminism I think the same thing about um a group as extreme um and anti-urch as like
Desnat. They don't get to take desire from us, right? You know, and so we see this and that's
why I really what I really love about the church um the church of Jesus Christ is we are a restoration. We're about
restoring things to their proper order. When things get out of hand, we we restore it to how it's supposed to be.
And that's what I feel very strongly about the ideals of feminism from how it
was viewed by the early saints. I think it's quite profound. I think that um Eliza Snow has some really interesting
things where she says like what women
like outside of Utah are fighting for freely given. And it's kind of like this
sort of through obedience to the Lord and to the gospel, we're actually elevated and able to um
be be um elevated in our capacities and our privileges and all of these things.
And I think that that's beautiful. And that's why I feel so strongly. That's why creating my own channel, I'm calling
it polyfeminist because I feel very strongly that these terms about talking
about polygamy and talking about feminism has been really um hijacked.
And I believe in restoring those into the way that the church would that are
in harmony with what the gospel of Jesus Christ is about.
Okay. So, let's let's use an example here. We've got a publication that I think claims to be the longest running
female LDS publication. I think it's been running for about 50 years right now. And that's that's not Exponent, but
Exponent 2. Yes. Right. And and so I want to show just a couple things here that they've put out
here recently. That is uh I think this is from them. So this is from one of their most recent
articles. It says, "And hey, it's even okay for God to impregnate a 14-year-old girl because he wanted his son Jesus
born." Right? in in referring to Mary. I mean, you're going all the way to the heart of the purity of the atonement and
the savior and an icon of of female
virtue, quite frankly. And I don't just mean that sexually. I just mean, you know, with Mary, it's like what what is
the point of something like this? And how is this so different from what we saw in the 20th century or in the 19th century?
Yeah. Um, I think that it's just I mean honestly these takes this um that
particular quote it's it's been annoying to me. Uh I will say there's two articles from the Exponent 2 that I
think are particularly egregious. And this one there's one from December that was the Christian God could have been in
the Epstein files referring to Mary. And then the next one is early Mormon
leaders would be in the Epstein Files and proud of it. Um, and we'll get into why this is such an egregious and
unacceptable headline to have. That line is from that one. Um, to take um Mary uh
one of our few uh like biblical like
women and this sort like the behold the handmade of the Lord. this moment of of
like obedience and this elevated like this fulfillment of this prophecy given
to Eve, you know, um it it's this it's this beautiful thing and this idea of of
motherhood and and I I think back to um uh President Holland, Elder Holland's uh
talk he gave where it's like behold thy mother and he talks about how um a mother is the closest approximation to
the savior in terms of um the sacrifice and the love that a mother experiences.
And like what a profoundly like reverent and exalted thing to say about women and
to to take this because you're uncomfortable
with the fact that women reproduce, the fact that women get pregnant and have children and have to bear the biological
cost of that. And it's the inability to accept that reality. And that's so
frustrating to take that versus something like okay in the woman's exponent there's some really beautiful
ways of that they talk about um the gospel stories for example one thing was the story of Mary and Martha there's a
particular article I love um where
I think traditionally when I learn about Mary and Martha in the in like Sunday
school or or relief society it's like hey remember there's all the thing there's all the
busyiness of the world but remember to take the time to learn from the savior like don't neglect your spiritual
learning um are you Mary or Martha sort of like are you are you looking after
and that's so productive and beautiful and also this woman in the woman's exponent talks about like hey she reads
it sociologically where she's like Mary Martha's doing the kitchen stuff she's
serving all of the people she's in the woman's spaces and she's like, "Mary, get out of the the salon where you're
talking with Jesus and the men and come to your place." And Jesus corrects her
and is like, "No, Mary should be part of these conversations, too." And kind of asserts that this is a moment of Jesus
also carrying what Mary had to say or ask or or have a conversation with him.
And that is such a beautiful like expansive way to like read that story
that I think the other ways that I traditionally talk hear about it that
has so much value to me too. And that one I'm like wow that's like really profound to know how much like the Lord
cares about the development and the voice and the mind and the spirit of his
daughters too, you know. And that's the type of article that they would have
which is completely in harmony with the Church of Jesus Christ. You're talking about 19th century exponent 19th century. Yep. That's 19th century.
And it's quite beautiful. And it's these women bearing their testimonies and it's these women um declaring that they're
not victims. Um that they're they're saying I'm making my own choice. like it. I would say the thesis almost of
women of the women's exponent is talking about how they are women with brains and
tongues and capacities and are not victims of their religion.
They're active agents within it that have testimonies and can contribute to
to it and want to build up the kingdom of God or or their husbands. Yeah. Well, like they believe they saw
themselves as like partnered and yolked with their husbands. There there was so much that
the belief of this I feel like every time I read about um you know the things
that men and women were doing at the time it's there's so much unity and yes the things that are sad. I'm not saying
that there aren't sad things. And to be honest, I think that a lot of the sadness in terms of the absences come
more from the men going and being gone for multiple years serving missions than
being with other wives. I do think that that is was a bigger strain on marriages than polygamy. Um but anyway, that's a
that's a little bit of a digression. So, you know, tell me this from a
woman's perspective. when you're looking at something, we're looking at the the the difference here between a Mary and Martha story or or looking at uh Mary,
the mother of Jesus. Yes. As they brought up. And hey, it's even okay if God didn't pray a 14-year-old girl. So,
I mean, this is I this is what I don't understand. This is what that the term patriarchy gets gets you to is the way I
look at it. It gets you all the way to God. God is the ultimate oppressor,
right? And because this is not something like an interpretation from a prophet or a scriptoran or or or anything else. I
mean this is this is this is part of the plan. This is what was planned [snorts] by God.
And so the idea of patriarchy or authority from a male somewhere
including a male god, you know, is is all of a sudden attacked as if Mary here
is a victim. Yep. So is is is it more because there is somehow an oppression some kind of
oppression happening or or is it more because she's pregnant and going to have
a baby and lose her her independence and life? I think it's probably a view honestly it
shows that the writer is just insecure about the fact that like women have
babies. Honestly, I think it goes what I what I think of when I look at the articles from Exponent 2 is I think of
the phrase like when all when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Um, and I think that
the perspective the ideological perspective of that publication is I am
inherently a victim. So, let me find all of the ways that that is true. And
that's the only way that they can possibly conceptualize reality. And the problem the big one of the biggest
problems with that is it flattens everything and it makes it all read like
an article from the onion where it's like I can't take this seriously, right? It's it's the boy who cried wolf,
but it's the boy can't tell the difference between a wolf and like a dog. And it's just like you're just like
actually not able to differentiate between these different things. And what
it does is it minimizes real problems and real abuses and makes it so you're
those are unable to be taken seriously and addressed adequately. And it's just this it's it becomes this like privilege
self-obsession where it's like what about me? I feel bad. And it's like okay
this is it's not about you. The Epstein files is not about you not liking
polygamy. It's not about you not liking that Mary's role was to who is not even
you, not your life calling. [laughter] It's her role to um be Jesus's mother.
Um well, here it is right here. Right. Early Mormon leaders would all be in the Epstein fuzz. Uh for anybody who's gone
through some of these millions of pages, whatever it is at this point, it is absolutely horrendous. It is disgusting.
It is your worst nightmare of conspiracy and problems actually is real. It is
horrific what what is in those pages and that's with it heavily redacted. Uh but
now you know that you're going in, you're you're comparing early Mormon leaders and they're talking
polygamy here, I'm guessing. uh to the Epstein files and the people that are involved with the Epstein files
and and being pedophiles and etc etc. This to me again is going so far down a whole rabbit hole of of victimhood and
honestly hate that that it's not any longer just a matter of you know victim
oppressor. It is actual you're you're you're
way feel about about the men uh that sacrificed so much and were called of
God and the early prophets whatever fine you know you get to choose however you want to feel but if you're trying to be
a member of the church and and root for that I mean obviously this it's so
hyperbolic you know and to root for this I I don't the the the cognitive dissonance on This
is so great. The gap is so great. I don't know how you reach this far unless you're just trying to say, "How
do I outrage myself and others more?" Yeah. How How do I participate and and kick
the hornets's nest of victimhood as best that I can? Yeah. And that's why it's decidedly a
poster ex Mormon publication. It just is. It's and it it's it's kind of annoying that it calls itself exponent
too where it's um trading on the legitimacy of the woman's exponent and
in the same breath undermining everything those women wrote or stood for and calling them victims when they
declared that they weren't repeatedly said I'm not a victim and not a victim.
You know who has said that they are victims? The actual victims of the Epstein like atrocity. um they do know
that they're victims. So to equate these things is absolutely insane. And it's to
strip um women of their own autonomy. And honestly, it is a disgusting attempt
to capitalize on a tragedy. And if you have not if you're not aware of what is in those documents,
um I do believe that we have a responsibility to know what's in those. Uh, it is like you said, Greg, it's it's
horrific. We're talking babies, like babies being and children having
babies and having them and s and like taken wherever or like
these horrific horrific horrific things. and to
equate it and saying like, "Oh, Brigham Young sealed to a 15-year-old, therefore
he raped her." And it's like, "Okay, I don't think there was sex there." Additionally, Brigham Young openly
talked about how that was like was anti- rape and often talked about how like,
hey, if you marry a younger bride, do not engage in sexuality until she is
ready for that, until she reaches a certain age. And there was talk about
like if a woman's feelings are alienated from you, like it's fornication to have
a sexual relationship. And like Brigham Young talked
incessantly like quite often about how much like men were not to harm women,
you know, and it's just to to just say that he would not like like Brigham
Young would kill everyone associated with that scene atrocity. like he just
would like in his own rhetoric he's like I would slit their throats and plunge it like that is what he would be saying
about this um and to just glibly being like oh you don't like the Epstein file
well that's what the early Mormon church was and it's like you don't know what you're talking about like it's coming
from this place of total ignorance total privilege and dismissiveness of the full
scope of what is in those files and I find it disgusting And I find it anti-woman. I'm just like, you are just
trading on the suffering of women to prop yourself up. Um, and I just think
it's completely unacceptable. And they should really call themselves the anti-polygamy standard, too, not the
exponent too. Um, oh, we'll talk about uh this. This was really interesting to
me. Um, which I really, um, Katie Ledllo Rich and Heather Sundal, they wrote this
book about the history of the Exponent 2. And honestly, the ideals of the Exponent 2, um, it started in the 70s.
And, you know, you have these really faithful Latter-day Saint women, Claudia Bushman and Laurel Laurel Thatcher
Orich, who are still like faithful Latter Day Saint, brilliant women. Yeah. Who I know several people over there.
Yeah. who originally like were starting that and and and
that was like kind of the origins of the exponent too and I I do appreciate that about it. Um, and so there was this
podcast they did, choosing community over ideological purity with faith matters. And on the surface level, I
really enjoyed a lot of what um they're talking about in this uh in this in this
podcast where it's it's talking about, you know, being able to um Heather
talked about the ability to like tolerate discomfort, you know, when someone's saying something you're
uncomfortable with versus knowing when it's like harmful to you. And I think that that's good. And this idea of like
being able to listen to difference and this ability to, you know, hold a
community with people that you disagree with to a degree, I I I appreciate that,
you know. However, in the context of of these articles, um, I think that that's
just it's it's PR to place themselves above reproach. Um it's this it's this
effort to be like, "Oh, well, you have to listen to me because it's just just listen to the difference of opinion, you
know." Uh and it's it's creating this like listening to hate in the name of
community and pretending that ideology isn't there. And like I can totally
agree with like yeah c relationships and like seeing what you can build with other people but don't be fooled into
thinking that any community is devoid of ideology and there seem to be this sort of like oh yeah the women with the
exponent too like disagree with each other and maybe that was earlier on but
o overwhelmingly the articles follow this worldview um over and over and over
again Like let me read just like a few other um like things like hot take some
of these are just silly words like hot take I would rather wear diapers than garments. Um to reduce the age of
marriage would benefit elderly LDS men like Don H. Oaks and harm young women. Um President Oak stop telling my
daughters to get married young. Uh men paint your nails and help end misogyny.
Um decanonize Doctrine of Covenants 132. Um, cages of comfort, a therapist's
reaction to the new temporal garment. The Virgin Mary, how virginity has nothing to do with sex. Like there's a
mixture of this silliness and also just overtly antagonistic to the church. And
I just to say like, oh, there it's not it's not ide ideological. We we accept
all things. I'm like, "Okay, well, let's go to another group that's like, you
know, equally at odds with the church, but in the opposite direction is like Desnet." I'm like, "Why don't I see any
Desnet articles in Exponent 2?" Um, like, if you're going to if you're if you're going to say just listen to all
the voices and let's all be in community, then how come I don't see that? It's not walking the walk in the
publication. Yeah. what it what it really means is don't just listen to orthodoxy, listen to us. That that's really what they're
saying. And it's a way to try to Trojan horse and protect their ideology to be above
reproach and criticism. And I think they should say whatever they want to say and they should be able to handle criticism
on it. I will say with these with the takes that they have and the articles
they're putting out specifically on their blog um it's very hard for them to be taken seriously and there is a lack
of I think journalistic integrity to it and it becomes this idea of like when you're listening to hate for the sake of
community it's like like someone who's like crazy racist getting up and like
saying and it's like no no we need to listen to them because they're valid too
and it's like we aren't We don't need to like ideology exists
is inherent in any group or person and so to it's very disingenuous I think to
try to hide behind the community and listening to dis to in order to make
your ideology above reproach. Um now I will appreciate like something that
Katie Ledllo Rich I thought this was really interesting. She talked about I'm this portrays what I'm even saying. uh
she talks about she's in a book club with women in the neighborhood and it's a mixture of women who are not members
of the church and women who are members of the church and it's like and we have both wine and soda at it and that's nice
and I was like oh that's lovely and then she also adds there are certain books
that we're obviously not going to read and I'm like there it is because you're not going to engage in that um in that
like they're not going to read the work and the glory and they're not going to read Bad Mormon, you know, like they're not it's going there's plenty of common
ground and that community can be a community in that common ground because communities are inherently exclusionary
and are inherently in that sort of you need to conform to a degree of ideology.
I think there's one really annoying [clears throat] um article that they put out. It's like
the monitoring, silencing, abuse of women in the LDS church. And this the
picture they use is a woman with duct tape over her mouth because she's being silenced. And I'm like, I'm sorry. You
being upset because you walked out of word counsel and you felt like the bishop was dismissive to your comments.
We can take that seriously and have a discussion about it. He did not put duct tape over your mouth. Like you were not
forcibly silenced. That's it's hard to take that seriously when you're equating
like these lower levels of oppression with these high level. It's like saying workplace harassment like in terms of
like I got I this man keeps hugging me and I don't like hugs and that's the
same as being raped. And it's like those are degrees and they need to be treated
differently so you're not undermining what true abuses are. Um, and it it's
really it's absurd to me because they undermine their own legitimacy because
it's because they have so many of these that cannot be taken seriously. Anything
they do have that might be serious, it gets lost in this in this nonsense. Um,
and I just get really concerned when like because I really love Faith Matters. I think that they
have a lot of great things. I love Terrell Given. I love the Sanctuary podcast. Their Wayfair magazine has
great art. You know, they there's there's good things that they do. And I appreciate that. Like when they were
first launching, they were very dedicated about like we're not going to go the way of Sunstone in terms of
ideological drift. Um, and when you're not aware of the ideology of
of these entities that you're platforming and therefore lending your legitimacy to, um, that's how that that
drift can happen. And that's important to be aware of. I mean, you even see this in um in polygamy denial. Like I
know that I mean this is what is floating around on the internet. So I'm assuming this is
the case. Um that you know Michelle Stone uh took down her podcast and as I
understand it is under possibil possible excommunication if she continues to
publicly speak in specific ways. That's what her manager said. either I mean that so she alleged but
yeah that's what that's the alleged I don't know and I I mean none of us knows because none of us are her
ecclesiastical leaders um but that's the word on the street if you will um but this idea of like she's being silenced
it's like no you're there's a consequence and you're choosing that you don't want that consequence because
groups have are inherently exclusionary and if you're going to say hey I'm in this
group but I fundamentally disagree with the claims of this group. Like, you can't be in that group. Like, if I
joined like a trans rights activism group and I
said, "You guys, I think that I think that gender like that your biological sex is like biologically embedded. I
don't think you can overcome that." They'd be like, "You need to leave." And I would be like, "You're silencing me
because I'm saying something that is at odds with the fundamental claim of their group." And they would be right to kick
me out of their group. And I wouldn't be silenced or oppressed by that. And that doesn't mean that we can't have across
the aisle conversations, but let's be let's not kid ourselves about the fact
that there is an aisle and it is a conversation across an aisle, not from within. I will say that, you know, another
important point on that is that they those individuals that have been excommunicated for that have not been
excommunicated for believing it. Yeah. Right. They they are excommunicated for spreading it and advocating for it. Yes.
And that that doctrine and and so and in many cases, I'm sorry, it goes well
beyond that against Brigham Y. Young and the other prophets. And that's just that's undermining the church. It just
undermines the church. I mean, whether you like it or not, it does. And so, it it it is not a matter of just belief
that excommunicates someone. it it is what you're preaching and and really
trying to you know you've got a program basically that you're trying to get out there and and that's where the problem the
problem comes in. But I also notice I don't know it's interesting because I will notice that that a lot of these you
know polygamy denial is one of those places where you have a
there's almost a a a strange uh bedfellows
between the left and the right within the church right because because you have the intellectuals that are okay this is yeah
we kind of like this idea of these things I don't like section 32. I never liked polygamy. It'd be really nice if
this was not from God. And and then you've got people on the right that are
monogamy and you know this is pure law of chastity and I don't want to move beyond those borders and and so you know
there you've got these two sides coming together with this a little bit right now. And it's going to be interesting to
see how that faments because that that is definitely something that is got momentum. Well, it's this extremity and
when you go on either end of the extremity, it loops around to being the same thing ultimately. And that's why
it's I don't know. I feel very strongly about like this restoration and this be able to like
s like to circumscribe everything into the
bounds that the Lord has set, you know, and to be able to
like see all truth and be able to affirm um the gospel of Jesus Christ. I have
found that and and there is a balance here. What what I think is so silly a lot of the a lot of these um
you know more post Mormon uh publications is going into like I am my
own god and what that ends up being is like I'm my ultimate s source of authority therefore everything I think
is true and that I think is just crazy
to think that I am I am capable of un of knowing everything and everyone who
thinks different than me is just blatantly wrong and I don't need any
other external like conversation and that's what I think the church the
gospel of Jesus Christ does so well in terms of having prophet seers and revelators and also advocating for
personal revelation and there's a tension there and there's a beauty there and there's like there is this exaltation there where
it's like has to be there you know that tension for growing and faith and and
understanding. It's like it's kind of like you're you're you're you're riding a bike with training wheels,
right? You got to have the training wheels on there for a while and it's probably throughout all mortality and maybe well beyond that for a while, but
you're you're riding the bike yourself. How fast you go, the direction you go, that's all up to you. But
you're not ready to take the training wheels off and and and and it's a matter of do you submit to truth? Do you submit
to an order of God? Do you submit to sacrifice and and love and obedience and
meekness with covenants and and uh that's again I mean we're talking about pygmy
denial or you talk about you know radical feminism or any of these things that's where those things get thrown out
the window to me is is the whole idea of a meekness to covenant and order and and things like that. It's just like no
we're done with these things. Yep. So [sighs] anyway, well, [snorts] I appreciate you
coming on again and talking about this. I I think it's very fascinating to see the way that feminism
today going into fourthwave feminism today h is I I think honestly it's
affecting the church. I think it affects our because we're part of our culture and and we get this and whether it's
through the media, through it social media, through law, through whatever it is, it's our schools, our education
system, there there is an effect of this that is
um very different from what the women were teaching in the 19th century. Yeah. And that's why I highly recommend
like reading if anyone know like go like look up the woman's exponent and read
into it. It's very very interesting um their perspectives on these things. And I think that that's why there's such a
danger in not like talking about it and engaging with these things because we can reclaim the things that are that are
good and in harmony with the gospel of Jesus Christ and in harmony with our ultimate happiness cuz we are a church
that believes in restoration and a restoration of all things. And I think that that's one of them that I
would love to see um brought back into its proper sphere. Well, we'll put a link to the exponent.
Yes. Uh in the description box. And then where can people find you? Um so I'm on the Poly Feminist. Uh so
you can find me on Instagram now and [music] YouTube and I made an ex account. So
that is where I currently am residing there. So I'm going to be posting more things [music] there. Uh so that's where
you can follow me. All right, Selene, thanks so much. It's always a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you. It was super fun. Byebye.
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