Yes, Eve was beguiled.
What do the fig leaves represent?
What is the "rib."
Are the curses really curses?
Were Adam and Eve actually able to have kids before the fall?
So many of the cultural issues we face today find their answers in the account of the Garden of Eden. Things we often disregard as obvious, much like we did with the Family Proclamation.
Yes, Eve was beguiled. What do the fig leaves represent? What is the "rib." Are the curses really curses? Were Adam and Eve actually able to have kids before the fall? So many of the cultural issues we face today find their answers in the account of the Garden of Eden. Things we often disregard as obvious, much like we did with the Family Proclamation.
well I'm glad you're here to listen to Bruce Porter talk about the Garden of Eden there are many insights that he
brings to the table some things I had never heard before but that's not a
surprise with someone like Bruce Porter now Bruce is involved with me in go and do travel he does a number number of the
tours that I do we do those together I have recently been named the official
spokesman of go Ando travel and so of course you're going to hear a lot about me talking about that company about
these t and cruises that we do I want to talk about momentum this is momentum East out in the Caribbean and momentum
West in Mexico these will be happening in January and February 2025 this is an
opportunity to go on a cruise with hundreds hundreds of Latter-day Saints
where you mingle with like-minded people you have incredible entertainment and very edifying talks and presentations go
to Quick media.com R scroll up to trips and events and take look at momentum I'd
love to see you there here we [Music]
go right welcome to Quick show my name is Greg Matson and I am your host in this episode we bring back yet again a
good friend Bruce Porter Bruce how are you doing I'm doing well Greg it's exciting to be here again yeah well
we're gonna we're going to talk about something that I I find fascinating i' I've had other discussions with other individuals on this topic but that's the
topic of the Garden of Eden account I think there's you know it's really fascinating that in our culture today
where we are sliding so quickly away from definitions and traditional uh uh
understanding of everything from man and woman to family Etc there's all these bakic very basic taken for granted
truths in Genesis of God created man and woman in His
image there's one you know man should leave his parents and cleave to his wife and all of these very basic things that
all of a sudden are controversial in in in our
culture yeah the answer nibbi once said U the pearl of great price is the book
that answers all the questions and without a doubt it is
if if you if you have faith in Scripture it will answer almost all of the questions that uh are plaguing us today
a lot of the issues that are going out today if you believe in it yeah well it's such a fundamental you know account
everybody knows it even if they're not Christian and and and it's so basic but
it's so taken for granted I think at this point I mean I've always taken that kind of thing for granted but it's it's kind of like the proclamation on the
family it comes out in 1995 and you're kind of like whatever I mean yeah everybody knows this this is nothing new
uh and yet you know now we we see this this massive change and if you just go back to Genesis and look at these very
basic doctrines and and and what happened in that account it it spells
out an order that is pretty simple yeah yeah it does it does it just it's
biologically correct it's politically correct I mean well maybe not politically correct to some people but
it is correct it's religiously and doct correct yeah I uh so so what I want to
do is I want to go this is this has fascinated me in looking at the account
and what it means I think that we lose a lot of context in some places I think we take it too literally in some places we
don't take it literally enough um but there are a lot of truths here and and
and there's a reason why as latterday Saints we have this account in the temple right it's something that after
the creation we account we have a basically an on-ramp as you've talked a lot about this an on-ramp into Covenant
uh with with w w with the creation account and then we move right into an account that's in many ways about us and
that's one of my that's my first question to you do you see the Garden of Eden account the
account of Adam and Eve as more than just a historical account and something
that we should put ourselves into as well kind of like we see in the temple drama
I I think I think we need to I I think it's real you know if um if if if
metaphor and symbol isn't isn't founded on a historical reality then every interpretation is correct and every
interpretation is potentially wrong so it has to be founded on a reality but but the reality is to put our place in
it there's there's a talmudic statement that says everything Adam did Abraham did and everything Abraham did we must
do and so we have to become the man Adam and the and and the woman Eve uh because
the things that they go through uh in in in coming into this lone and Drury world
and how and what they have to do in order to get back to the presence of God uh is is a pattern for every life every
single life that exists um and so there's there's layer upon layer that we
should be looking at but realizing that there's a historical reality behind it
all uh which place us because it's a historical reality reality it places Us
in that in that position of Adam and Eve I'm going to start off here with the creation of Adam and and I'm going I'm
going to build this off of Abraham 5 uh you really like the Abraham account um and just you know answer this
as best you can or don't answer it but it's just there's just a question here about the creation of Adam here's what
it says in verse 7 and the gods formed man from from the dust of the ground and
took his spirit that is man's spirit and put it into him and breathed into his
nostrils the breath of life and Man became a living Soul how literally do
you take that and and and what are your how would you expound on on the creation
of Adam into into a physical body well that statement uh creating him
from the dust of the earth um is in every one of our standard works multiple times it's in the Bible it's Old
Testament in the New Testament it's in our Book of Mormon uh Doctrine covenants it's in our Pearl great price it's in
all of our standard Works where he's created from the dust of the earth now as I look at it and look at section
93 in order to be governed by the natural law um of of the sphere in which you are
placed as 93 talks about in order to be governed by natural law you have to be
created from the elements of that particular sphere of which that natural law is going to is going to have
control you know I think that God could probably create a body that would be capable of dwelling on the sun in that
heat and Glory if he were to use the right elements that could do that I think the elements of Adam's Body are
the elements of the Earth or the sphere upon which he's going to dwell so that those natural laws that are set into
place can govern him which is really coming back down to uh dealing with life
and death sickness and illness and all of the the things that we have to participate in now I have no problem God
taking those elements whatever they are and fashioning a physical body for Adam
now there is an ancient text called the discourse on the abaton which uh is interesting because nible
says it used to be in the scriptures I kind of think it was too president Nelson Has quoted it I think twice in
general conference but nobody looks at it but it is what in in the discourse in
this discourse on the abaton um once the Earth is created we're in the counsil in
heaven um God sends the angel morial down to the Earth to get elements of the Earth the particular elements and he
brings that morial brings those back to that pre-earth counsel this counsil in heaven and there he fashion the body of
Adam out of the elements creates the body of Adam however whatever process
the body of Adam is created and then it says and God left him life there and he
size over him daily for 40 days and 40 nights and then explains to us all of
the rest of us that are there in this counsil in heaven that what's going to happen to us if he puts the breath of
life into this physical body that he's created from the elements of the earth that's already existing and he goes
through the sin the sickness the illness the pain the suffering uh that's going to happen and then he talks about the
separation the natural man and the uh desires appetites and passions that are going to separate seate us from God and
then Christ steps up and says put the Breath of Life in him I'll redeem man I'll save mankind I'll be the Savior and
then the father turns to Christ and eventually we all those who are there there uh uh we accept that we are
willing with Christ to to take on this life and it and then finally it says and then he put the breath of life into him
into into this body that he's made and Adam jumps up and says to God he says to all of us you've placed me into a state
in which I've never before existed he could feel the difference the physical body made and then then God uh tells all
of us all of those in that pre-earth Council to come and ask Adam how this physical body is and feels so so and
then every one of our texts it doesn't say God created Adam in
the Garden of Eden every one of our texts says that after he was created he was placed in
the Garden of Eden and that goes right along with this discourse on the abutin he created in
the Council of heaven so we could see and understand what that physical body was like talk to Adam about it let him
explain it to us we understood the trials tribulation we had to understand
how bad this physical life could be or else our agency was compromised of course there's that third part that fell
away that refused to accept that but we had to understand how rotten this life could be before or else our agency was
compromised we had to understand perfectly um and then Adam's placed in the Garden of Eden to begin the process
and so um I have no problem with God taking the elements fashioning them in
anyway um now there's people who say well God can't do that you know then they quote Brigham Young saying well God
couldn't make Adam like an adobe and then and then cause him to live you know they use that adobe statement of Brigham
Young well if that if that can't happen I really have a concern about the resurrection I really have a worry about
the resurrection so I think God can do it anywhere in any way that he wants to
uh but I think it's a historical event that God created Adam and from Adam he created
Eve so you say that that uh um the elements of the
earth uh our body is made from the elements of the earth and therefore they're governed by natural law here on
Earth uh gravity pain you know whatever else that we're going to experience here
uh do you think that what would that mean for the resurrection then I mean is that is that
do you think that's important that the elements are created from the Earth from these types of elements are they even
going to be the exact same elements is it is it how would that mean how would that
matter for us as resurrected beings based on a governing principle of physical matter in the future well the
question comes down I think it's talked a little bit about in section 88 of the doctrine covenants where the the Earth becomes Sanctified it will fulfill the
measure of its creation become Sanctified and our bodies have to be of such a nature that we can dwell on a
Sanctified glorious environment we have to have that environment talage made the statement um one time where he said that
he believed that our Spirits be they Celestial or terrestrial or testal will
be the power that initiates our Resurrection because we will have to live within that Environ a telestial
environment or terrestrial or Celestial environment that our spirits will have a have a have a part in that Resurrection
now is Spirit an element Joseph Smith says it is in the doctrine covenants it's refined it's it's more pure it's
more fine is that the element of of Eternity yes uh one thing is we know
with the resurrection is that that it's it's Eternal what we're not going to die
again death will not be an asp well one aspect of entropy which is everything
going from a state of order to a state of disorder it's entropy that causes death you know that it's it's it's just
that fact that second law of Thermodynamics that causes death but one thing that that entropy requires in
order to function is the is the dimension of
time if there is no time or we're living in an environment without the dimension of time then there can be no entropy
Adam and Eve are are Immortal while they're in the Garden of Eden as it says
as it teaches us in second Nephi chapter 2 they're Immortal in the Garden of Eden but uh Abraham chapter 5 says uh
speaking of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden for it was not given unto them their Reckoning of time yet that they
hadn't entered into that dimension of time that's required for that to take
place well if we live in an environment without time we're
Immortal yeah that's uh that's really interesting so no entropy with no time
uh or at least in some other dimension of time I mean the one
of the questions that comes up philosophically about time is is God in time and
space because a lot of believe that he's Beyond Time and beyond space uh certainly that is a belief it
seems to me more than for us as Latter-Day Saints in the rest of Christianity yet for us there seems to
be some element of that right because we believe he's got a physical body uh um he's not in our time and
space though right right I mean he's he's at least in something else if
he's uh would you be saying then that he is also not bound by any type of time or
space well that's I think what the scripture says if he's if God is eternal or if eternity exists then there cannot
be that dimension of time the great thing about the book of Abraham is Abraham tells us that not only is God
real but he tells us that he's locatable there in fact assembly number two in the explanation of fact assembly number two
and then in that faim it says kab and oish they are the two governing planets
and they're equal to a thousand years on Earth to one day on those two planets but it says they are the last pertaining
to the measurement of time and that's before you get to the residence of God that Abraham talks about they're the
last pertaining to the measurement of time so so Abraham is telling us that
God is Not only real but he's locatable and he's existing in a dimension without
time is what the explanation at least the explanation of facts number two is explaining so there's a question there
because this comes up a lot this is a little bit of a tangent but uh so God does not reside on kab based on Abraham
3 yeah if you hide a kab you haven't gone far enough right okay because you know
there's the there's the meme that is put out there the Trope that is well well Mormons are out there and they're
they'll believe they're going to have their own collab planet and and Rule from there and that's where their Throne is and Etc no all all that Abraham tells
us is that cab is a governing planet that governs planets like onto the one
that Abraham stands and it's last pertaining to it's nearest to the to the
celestial residence or Throne of God and it's the last pertaining to the measurement of time yeah and it's
interesting because if we go through Abraham 3 and then you get down to the second half instead of planets it goes into Spirits right and parallels it and
it's basically it seems to me like it's Jehovah Christ that is paralleled to
kab um is that the way you interpret that I think it can be there's there's
and and Abraham explains that they're governing planets you know that the Earth gets its life and Light through
enish go andash which gets its uh light and life through the medium of Kil floes
which gets its light and life through the medium of K van rash which gets its light and life through the medium of cab
which then receives its light and life through God and that's what 88 section 88 I believe it is starts out that way
that he is the light of the sun and the power of the and and the light and the how does it say the light of the sun and
the power of the a by which it is made and the light of the moon and the light of the Stars speaking of Christ that he
is that Medium that gives light and Life to all things on earth kind of what John is saying there in chapter one it's a
governing principle you're using planets first here as governing we see how things are governed here around the Sun
and the Moon around the earth and all these different things but it's it's a governing principle that we then
see placed upon us really I mean because even Abraham is located in that
structure right as one of the great and Noble exactly and Abraham is is famous at
least from a scriptural point of view famous for using um real symbols
for Spiritual ideas that's why he says I'm going to refer you to the representation at the beginning of this
record that's why we have these fact symes yeah they're symbols of of another reality not just a physical reality but
a spiritual reality so this is something that's different here and we're going to pull a
little bit of collab here into this next verse I want to go all the way to the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil here at this point and and if there's
something else you want to bring up Bruce just let me know and intervene any time uh but in verse 13 it says but of
the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil Thou shalt not eat for in the time that
thou eatest thereof Thou shalt surely die now I Abraham saw that it was after
the Lord's time this is really interesting this says nowhere in any other account right right right this
this goes back again and and if people read this closely when you get into Abraham 3 he's looking through the IR
and Thum and then this is a continuation of this but he says now I Abraham saw that it was after the Lord's time which
was after the time of kab for as yet the gods had not appointed unto Adam his
Reckoning what is being said here do you have you thought about this verse 13
I I have um and that the time as we know it did not exist
it's after the Lord's time and and and you can say that in the day thou eatest thereof or in the time that thou eatest
thereof Thou shalt surely die so uh we see in section 29 of the doctrine
covenants somewhere back in around verse 41 or 42 it says for it was not given
unto Adam and his posterity to die as to the temporal death
until they should the Lord should send forth angels to teach them the gospel so
that day in which Adam dies or that posterity that's there could not die there was no death with at least within
Humanity there was no death until they get the gospel and what is that time is
it a thousand years is it you know whatever it might be is it the Lord's
time uh that Thousand Years Cab's one one revolution of cab is uh is as a
thousand years on Earth one day on cab is as a thousand years on Earth so that could be the Lord's time that he's
talking about now that can be I wouldn't have any problem accepting that or looking at that as a simile or metaphor
for a whopping long time which it could a thousand years yeah that's oftentimes used H is just a just means a long long
time yeah and of course that's something else that's in fact similar too right there is figure one two three four soar
hor Shar there in four is is seen as a thousand years isn't that right yes and
that's connected to you got cab and you got ol which is also a governing planet that is equal to the Revolutions of cab
yeah interesting okay all right coming down here then to the help meat and there's so much talk about this but
verse 14 and the God said let us make and help meat for the man for it is not
good that the man should be alone that's one thing therefore we will form and
help meat for him and he puts a deep sleep on Adam takes of his rib closes up
the Flesh in instead thereof and of the rib which the gods had taken from the man formed they a woman and brought her
under the man what is happening here as far as um well first of all I want to
talk about the term help me how do you see that as a as what does that mean because there's a lot of talk in the
last 15 20 years about what that means well in the Hebrew it's it's used
in the Bible in in the Old Testament it's the word is used is that is used in
that is Aero aer's helper kdo is like unto
him um sometimes it's called a help meet or a help mate depending on the
translation well it's the same way that you had made a sock same size same age
same color you know same number of holes whatever you however you want to look at it it means one that's like him now in
the Hebrew 2 it doesn't say rib it means it they take a side of him out they take
side yeah a side of him they take one side of him out and they create a woman and because because it's not good for a
man to be alone in this environment which he's going to be placed in this um
and Abraham talks about as well as uh some of the Jewish texts talk about when a when Adam Adam is part Adam has nine
existences as I look at it in scripture nine different responsibilities and existence one of his as a member of the
creation presidents he's on the committee of inspection he's a member of the creation you know presen he's the
first man you I mean there's a whole bunch of them but one of his responsibilities on that creation
presidency is to name all the animals and he recognizes the many of
these traditions and it shows up there in in Abraham many of these uh statements are that he recognized that
they all had a companion except for him and it was only once he realized that he needed that he needed a companion or
wanted a companion did the Lord come in and say let's let's uh create woman well
he it takes and Adam says and it's interesting what Adam says he says this
this I know this is in Moses he says this I know is bone of my bone and Flesh of My Flesh and she shall be called
woman because she was taken out of man there's a separation of the male and
female parts if you want to call it that but it's not good that Adam should be alone in this environment and so Eve is
created now I look at it a little humorously and that's because Adam is perfect
you know he can't do anything wrong if there's no one there to tell him what he's doing wrong you know he you know he
can't put the toilet paper on backwards he can't fold the towels wrong you know he doesn't have to do dishes he can walk
around naked whatever you want to call it but it's not good that he should be alone and so someone equal to him in
every way uh an AER cono uh helper like unto him is
created uh to assist him and then he's told not to he's not to separate himself
from that you know it's interesting in the Moses account and I I think in the
Genesis account you have this uh uh the you know
the the Lord God said unto mine only begotten in Moses that it was not good that the man should be alone wherefore I
will make and help meat to for him and then all of a sudden after you
bring up this idea of a help meat it doesn't continue with Eve it goes over to the creation of the
animals right and out of the ground the next is and out of the ground eye the Lord God formed every beast of the field
and every foul of the air and commanded that they should come unto Adam to see what what he should call them so it's
it's kind of changed in Moses a little bit where it's it's like it goes over to here to say talk about there needs to be
a help meet it's not good for man to be alone then it goes to the beasts and then it comes back to
Eve I it does I think that's um I think that's the way it should be there's
parts of Genesis Moses and you have to keep in mind the audience
of let's see it section 93 that says truth is the knowledge of things as they were as they are and as they are to come
to understand an eternal truth you have to understand those three different from from those three different positions
things as they were the past things as they are the present things as they will be in the future and each creation
account that we have and we have four creation accounts but if we take Moses and say Moses is the inspired version of
Genesis then we have three we have we have Moses we have Abraham and we have the temple account which has been but
being Abridged uh has been constantly Abridged over time but but we have three
different accounts but the interesting thing is they come in from three different positions three different points of view Moses's account is
looking at it as things as they were he's speaking you have to remember the audience and his point of view the
audience is the the stiff necked children of Israel he's saying God has done this for you he has done this he's
done this he's done this in the past he's did he did this he did that so he's he's speaking to to some hard-headed
people and he's speaking as it as something that happened in the past things as they were now the temple takes
a point of view where you're the man Adam and the woman Eve and you're participating in it in real time you're
looking at you're looking at it as things as they are you have a point of view of things as they are Abraham on
the other hand and this is one reason I think it's more correct Abraham is looking at it as a spirit before before
he's even created before the world's created he's looking at it from the from the point of view of the Gods he's
looking at it as things as they shall be so between those three creation accounts
Moses the temple and Abraham we have we we see a creation account of things as they were as they are and as they are to
come or they are to be with those three creation accounts each each of them different but each of them
correct from their point of view and and the audience you have to remember the audience Abraham is writing for the
benefit of his posterity for those who are going to accept the gospel and and fulfill the Covenant that God has given
unto him the Temple's for a different audience and what Moses gives us is for
another audience so you have to look at those those elements when you start to look at what's going on especially in in
Moses in the temple you have to remember remember the temples a bridged more more so than just about any of them but but
and when it comes down to what's going on we see and people don't look at it this way and I've broken it down
multiple times in multiple ways but there is a trailer now when I say trailer you just
like you have a trailer on a movie you know sure that's what I thought just a synopsis and so those opening lines you
know in the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth and the Sun and the Moon and all of that see that's a trailer of what's yet to come that's a
copon of what's yet to come and what's yet to be talked about and so I think we may be looking at that when God said is
it good that man should be alone no that's not good that's setting the stage for what's coming you know that happens all through
scripture there is a stage that set those first five verses in Nephi is setting the stage for the rest of the
record the first four verses or first four or five verses in Abraham is setting the stage for the rest of the
record and we see that even in the creation accounts we get a trailer at the beginning and then and then you
understand that it's you know that the Earth wasn't created before the sun moon and the stars they had to already be there that you know if you if you
understand that there's a trailer or a caon within each of these contexts so I I think I think in one
you're saying we is it good that man should be no alone no let's create a help meet for him well then the creation
comes down to where it's it's in the context Adam and Eve being or Eve being created is and Adam too is in the
context as we see it there in it' be Genesis 1 or Moses 2 I think it is there
around verse 26 through 29 or something like that where it says and God said let
us create man in our own image and the image of God created he him male and female created he them and it says and
God blessed them and said unto them be fruitful you know multiply and replenish the Earth
and subdue the Earth and have dominion over every living thing but see that in the con if you look at the verses before
and the verses after that's in the context of creating life not creating Commandments but
creating life do you see any significance you brought it up briefly but is there any
additional significance to why it's mentioned that Adam gives names to the animals wh why is that
important in the Egyptian mind if you go back and it's it's it's it's real for
the rest of us nothing exists without a name name becomes extremely important because a name name gives an identity
and there is no identity without a name and so Adam Adam is on the creation in the creation presidency he's on the
committee of inspection that goes down to make sure everything's going right and part of that aspect of that creation
presidency is in the creation is to give names to the animal because that's
that's when they are created is when they have a name they they have no existence even though they may be there there's no existence without a name and
so part of that of Adam's responsibility in that creation presidency and in that
Committee of inspection and being the first man being the first person that has given the power to have dominion
over every living thing Adam has given that responsibility to name all of those
animals which gives life and and I don't want to say you know his final name that we see in
scripture his the final name that he gives is to Eve she shall be called called woman because she was taken out
of man and man the word for man is eh and the word for woman is just is with a
feminine ending yes so yeah okay uh so
I'm moving back over here to Moses so that we can continue the account because Abraham stops at that point essentially
um but it's kind of interesting here because as you look based on what you've just brought up about setting the stage
with a kfon there's in chapter 4 you you get we've been talking about the the
creation we've talked about Adam and Eve and then all of a sudden in chapter 4 it goes to Satan but it brings us back to
the beginning and I'm using air quotes here the beginning which I oftentimes it
seems to me whenever I see that I always think of the council in heaven or at least try to Anchor myself and give me
myself context when I see that but it goes back to Satan as Lucifer in the
premortal world where it gives the story of him rebelling so that we have some context it seems of who this character
is going to be that shows up in the garden does that make sense it does you
you have to do that you see the same thing in the Book of Revelation as John's talking about all the all the terrible things that are going to happen
and all the evil that's going to be in the world all of a sudden he he's going through all of this evil and and then
all of a sudden he drops back in the very beginning and that there was a third part that fell you know as you see
that CH I think it's chapter it's either six or 12 there in Revelation 12 12 yeah
um so you see that but it's what he's trying to do is explain how evil came to
be how evil started you know prophets can't when a prophet sees a vision I
think the dimension of time is is eliminated for instance when Joseph
Smith Goes to the sacred grove that first time H the vision that he had with Moroni before he went there was
multi-dimensional he not only saw every tree he saw every Rock he saw every rela he heard every bird all at the same time
and he was aware of that that's multi-dimensional and when a prophet has a vision and this is the problem with
with John in the Book of Revelation is when when a prophet has a vision he sees this whole this Panorama he he's
experiences this whole thing almost all at once and in its fullness and then he
has to write that in a three-dimensional for a three-dimensional audience and so he's going along so so John in in
Revelations will will'll skip to history and he'll get forward to the future then he comes back and that's what he's doing
there and he in chapter 12 he has to come back and explain how evil comes into the world and that's what's
happening here in chapter four of Moses we've got to introduce the evil and
where it came from and why it's here and so this is this is what's going on in chapter 4 and then uh uh we see it like
that elsewhere even in in Isaiah a little bit there around chapter 14 Jeremiah 5050 you know then it's
interesting because it seems that like you said I think a lot of the the the the temple account is taken from Moses
there's some that's taken from Abraham but there's there's a lot of it's taken from Moses the book of Moses uh but
there's there's a change here that's really interesting uh there's in the
Moses account Satan does not approach a Abra Adam
first right right there's there's no account here of him coming to it's just
talking about Lucifer in the premortal world he became Satan the father of the devil and the father of all lies uh and
you know and then it says and now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field Satan put it into the heart of the
serpent and then this is interesting for he had drawn away many after him which is interesting is he is he using a
different Spirit there I I don't know but and he sought also to beguile Eve so it goes right into him going directly to
Eve instead of talking to Adam who then can show his bonafides of
obedience first uh that we usually look at it goes he goes right to Eve do you
know why that would be or well I think I think we're coming back again to the issue of how did Evil
come into the world Adam if Adam rejected it and see that's a connection to Paul going back to Paul for the man
was not deceived but the woman was deceived yes so what we have in had in the temple about him coming to Adam
first and Adam said no I'm not going to do it and that's kind of where Paul is
coming in and saying the very same same thing Adam was not deceived he he took he he partook of the fruit knowing full
well and it was an issue of Eternal Marriage it wasn't an issue of children it was an issue of Eternal Marriage and
so the story goes and and what's being introduced is how did Evil come into the world and the first real Temptation that
we see is getting Eve or getting someone not to
believe the word of God you know you shall not surely die if you partake of it even though God said that and Eve eve
even quoted God if we can call that scripture eve even quoted scripture and S Satan says don't believe that
scripture so that really becomes the first temptation but that's how the evil comes into the world and that's why it's
being introduced that way because there is no evil if Adam didn't partake if
Adam refused it we've got to get that evil introduced and how it came here you know it's there there's a uh a
spectrum a uh what's the word I'm looking for um a pendulum that swings a lot in
in our culture and in and in our knowledge of of Eve and and and the the
Garden of Eden you know it's it's we've been at times you know most of Christianity looks at the the fall as
absolutely the worst possible thing that could have ever happened and so there's this idea that Eve was the first evil
one and um that if she just wouldn't have done what she would have done then
we all would have been happy in the Garden of Eden because you know they don't believe that we couldn't have had children or or that that wouldn't have
happened anyway uh back in the Gard of Eden so with us we kind of draw a little bit from the Protestant thought I think
at times and um but now there is this kind of like well
make Eve the hero hero Eve is the total hero and she knew exactly what she
almost to the point of she knew exactly what she was doing and she did it because she wanted these things to
happen later in Moses she talks about we you know it's good that this happened because now we can have children we can
know good and evil Etc but but she was beguiled and and I think we have to keep
that's important to understand right there was a fall because of the
beguiling there this is important to understand all of scripture said says that Eve was
beguiled on this and she is beguiled because she does believe that you shall
not surely die which I believe is just as much spiritual death as as it is physical death but she is beguiled and
so so we've got this pulum that swings back and forth where where she did know wrong and and and from where we were
before more along the proess thing that that she was the worst thing ever right and where where should we stand with
that I think we need to stand with scripture um tradition is often stronger
than scripture and tradition is like you mentioned that we think that Eve is just
the wonderful person and she is there's no question about it there's no question about it if if if there's going to be
perfect genetics it's going to be it's going to be the first two that God creates you know they're going to have the best DNA
the most perfect DNA the per most perfect genetics and you're going to have the mutations coming on after that
time period but they're they're going to be perfect in in every in every single way but but let the scriptures speak for
themselves now we we've created from scripture we've created this two
conflicting Commandments and I think that's wrong I don't see the two conflicting
Commandments in scripture and it it's down it comes down to God says don't partake of this tree but if you don't
partake that tree you can't have kids so we've got two and then there's a command to have kids now now I don't see that
when I look at scripture and look at Abraham as well as others I don't I don't see that there were two conflicting Commandments because it says
God blessed them Abra and Abraham uses a completely different thing where it says
God blessed them and said unto them be fruitful in Abraham it says when they were created God caused them to have
that potential he caused them to be fruitful just like he did the animals before and the Animals afterwards
there's no commandment of of of no real
commandment to have children until Noah in scripture and and and when you look at
it that when you understand that and begin to understand that you can realize that there's there's a there's a big
difference there are not two conflicting Commandments and so if you let Eve speak for herself God asked her how come you
partook of the fruit and she didn't say I wanted to get things rolling I wanted to have kids and Adam wasn't doing it
and so I really pulled things together she doesn't say that um she says if I hadn't have fallen
were it not for my transgression I wouldn't had SE she didn't know anything about it and I
wouldn't have known anything about the joy of our Redemption but we put Eve or we place Eve in this position that she
refuses to take herself saying that she understood the gospel before the
fall Adam and Eve did not according to scripture did not know or understand the
gospel at all before the fall even in the temple it used to say if they
partake of the fruit then a savior will be provided there is no gospel there is no
need for a gospel there's no need for a resurrection there's no need for salvation there is no need for a Jesus
Christ because they walked with God in the cool of the day and it used to say if they partake
of the fruit then a savior will be provided and so Eve is and that's Moses five right that's where these things
start to happen in Moses 5 11 and and 10 and 11 Moses 5 Moses 5 it says in in
those opening verses uh it says Adam knew his wife Eve and she conceived and began to Bear children but he subdues
there's there's blessings going on in in chapter one of Genesis chapter 2 of of
Moses where it says after they were created and God blessed them and said unto them this is Moses it' be Moses 229
or something like that um uh God blessed them and said unto them be fruitful multiply and replenish the Earth or fill
the Earth and then it says and have dominion over every living thing and then subdue the earth now that's the
abrahamic Covenant the abrahamic Covenant is posterity multiply and replenish to
subdue the Earth is inheritance that means make belong to and Joseph Smith said that Dominion given to Adam and Eve
is the priesthood now you remember in those opening verses of Abraham he says the Covenant that I wanted began with Adam
that's that's where it begins the Covenant yeah and and so when you look
at that priesthood in posterity and inheritance in those opening verses when
they're created that's not realized until chapter 5 verse in those first
opening verses of chapter 5 then Adam could have children then Adam knew his wife and she conceived then Adam had
dominion over every living thing then Adam and his wife Eve did labor with him
to subdue the land so so the reality of those blessings of their creation those potentials of their creation are
realized in those opening verses of chapter 5 and when you begin to look at that so
Adam has children those children are already dividing two by two and they're having children and those children are
dividing two by two and then Adam is offering sacrifice and the
angel comes to him and says why are you doing well this is three generations later they haven't got the gospel yet
the explains the gospel to Adam yeah it's it's when you read chapter 5 it's really clear you know
because we we get this condensed version in a lot of we miss a lot of context in Genesis but it's very clear that there
are several Generations existing from Adam and Eve
when the angel comes to Adam when he's sacrificing and Adam does not know why
he's doing it exactly doesn't it's almost like it has to be explained to him that there is a redeemer this is in
similitude of the only begotten son it's like that's he's being taught the gospel
there at that point and and and then you know without that context we also think that Cain and Abel are the first ones
born to Adam and Eve that is the common knowledge that is out there
instead of understanding that no there's there's all these Generations already
there and that's why things make sense about what happens with Cain and he can't move around and and he and he's
given the mark and all these different things you know because there's already a plethora of individuals of humans
wandering the Earth exactly if if you if you take those opening verses of Abraham
down through chap down through verse eight so you have Adam having posterity
those kids having posterity and those kids having post you got three generations if you include Adam and Eve there three or four generations Adam
gets the gospel and it goes down to verse 8 where the angel says I believe it is in verse 8 where the angel says
UHD do all that thou doest in the name of the son forever more and then in verse n it says the spirit Came Upon Adam between verses 8 and N there's a
lot of teaching going on now that teaching if you go to chapter six of
Moses chapter 6 starting in verse 51 of chapter 6 51 really through 68
there's 18 verses there Enoch starts quoting from the book of Adam and the
detail that begins in verse 51 of chapter 6 ends in about verse
57 or 67 uh 68 of chapter 6 that's the
detail that fits between verses 8 and N of chapter 5 that's where that needs to
go you need to look at that Adam saying the Angel's there and Adam is saying why does a man need to repent what's going
on why should he repent and the Lord goes through the gospel and goes through the Plan of Salvation and then then he says teach these things a commandment I
give unto you to teach these things unto your children and then he says it again a new commandment I give unto you to
teach these things freely unto your children that's those three generations that are already
there and then Adam comes back Adam comes back and then it says then Adam Adam says now in verse 10 of chapter 5
he says man I wouldn't have known anything if I hadn't partaken of the fruit would have known anything about it Eve hearing these things it says hearing
what Adam is saying and talk she says were it not for our transgression we had never had seed and
and know known the joy of our Redemption then it says in the next verse true to the Commandment that he had received in
chapter six he teaches he makes all these things known unto his sons and daughters now that he's got the gospel
he makes all things known unto those sons and daughters and then it says as Joseph Smith said Joseph Smith
said the Satan sets up his kingdom at the very same time the Lord sets up his So Adam teaches the gospel to those three generations then it says and Satan
came among them and saying believe it not and they believed it not and they loved Satan more than God and men from
that time forth once they got the gospel men from that time forth became carnal sensual and
devilish and it says Adam and Eve mourned over their sons and daughters and then Adam knew his wife Eve and she
conceived and bear a son and called his name Ken Cain and said now I've have gotten a Manchild from the Lord wherefore he will not reject the words
of the Lord Cain is the first one born after they get the
gospel after they get the gospel and so Eve is saying now he's going to go to he's going to go to primary he's going
to go to young men's he's going to go to priesthood meting will'll keep him out of Scouts but he's going to go to everything and so Cain is the first one
born after the gospel that's why she says now I have gotten a Manchild wherefore he will not reject he she's
saying I have a patriarch now yeah I've got someone that will carry this on with
priesthood Authority exactly and and continue on the adamic abrahamic
Covenant exactly uh with with a posterity exactly and and it's interesting you've
got when you what you say with chap Moses chapter 6 it says and he called
Upon Our Father this is Enoch being being Adam right in or uh uh oh this is
God and he called Upon Our Father Adam by his own voice saying I am God and then he goes right into I made the world
and Men before they were in the flesh this is the beginning of him teaching Adam the gospel exactly verse 58 yeah
that's that's or verse 51 is where that where Enoch begins quoting from the book of Adam and that fits between verses 8
and N of chapter 5 all of that rest of that chapter yeah that's uh that that's
that's really good to know so between 8 and nine you go to chapter 6 and you fit in 51 to
6768 in there and uh and that's what's taught being taught to Adam during that
time and this is why this is why it says in section 29 I mentioned that it was not given unto Adam and his posterity
that's those three generations to die as to the temporal death until he should send forth angels from the presence of
God to teach the gospel and that's what Adam's doing just like it used to say in the temple remember you know Adam is being true and
faithful to the Commandments he received in the Garden of Eden waiting for Messengers from the presence of God to
give him further light and knowledge it just took three generations you have to be found true and faithful to the light
knowledge you've already received in order in order to prepare yourself to receive further light
knowled yeah okay uh now about the children I think one of the reasons
people would be tripped up on that about that they couldn't have children before it says in second Nephi
2 uh verse 23 this is Lehi speaking it says and they would have had no children
wherefore they would have remained in a state of Innocence having no joy for they knew no misery doing no good for
they knew no sin how how does that play in with what you're saying well if you remember when
Eve was created it ends that chapter by saying and they were both naked and not ashamed okay is what's that saying is
the potential was created within their bodies the potential just like a child today has the potential but they don't
have the sexuality they don't have that sexuality to know and understand that and so
they're both naked and not ashamed they can live and exist in that innocence I
mean even within the temple who is it that tells Eve that or finally tells them that they're naked you know it's Satan that actually
actually makes that statement look you're you're naked and you know then he tells them to go and you know try and
you know which is interesting it's almost like he's injecting that sexuality into their minds yeah it's almost that's almost
what's going on there at least their nakedness you know and and that nakedness can mean multiple things
because sh after after the fact Christ is told to make garments of skin to cover that nakedness
uh a garment and and atonement is the same word in Hebrew so so there's a lot going on there but they even Eve says
that if we hadn't had fallen we' have never had seed and it it's not because they
couldn't uh physically it's because they didn't have the sexuality mentally to do
that that that separation that difference was not was not there at least that's the implication of they
were both naked and not ashamed there was no a there was no there was no embarrassment in in the way that they
were living yeah okay um all right so then we get to the
fall um you know there's there's a hierarchal or or a
sequential thing that happens here when Adam and Eve are in front of the oh one more question before we
get there Satan not only tells them that they're naked but he tells them to go
get the Fig leaves and to wear the apron which is what we do in the
temple why would we use that in the temple if this is something that's coming from Satan I think it's just a s
and it again there's a reality there but I think there's a symbol of man's
futile attempt to cover their own nakedness to cover their own
sins um and those that nakedness can represent sins because the Garment of skins the Garment that's made later on
that garment is the same word for atonement that covers our SK our sins too garment and atonement kapor is the
exact same is basically the same root word there and so that uh I think that
that apron represents the man's feeble attempt to cover up what he's done to
try and and justify himself or cover his nakedness now you can get into the steps
of repentance and and ask trying to Adam and Eve going to hide you know and things like that you got those steps of
repentance there because remorse has to be part of that and that seems to be the first thing that they recognize is their
remorse and that's why they hide the hiding is a is a is a reference to that
remorse that they're having and what's going on it's interesting because it used to be we we would learn in the temple that that Satan had an apron
right but but for him he said this represents my priesthoods yeah his priesthoods and Power Powers that's what
it represented for him so so wouldn't that is there I don't know because often times priesthood I mean when you think
about the abrahamic Covenant you think about priesthood it has so much to do with
posterity right and and and and I don't know the exact reason for why a high priest is wearing the apron the way that
he does but uh there there almost seems like a
correlation there somehow of the aprons priesthood and priesthood and and
posterity perhaps he can't have any priesthood he can't have any posterity with his priesthood right but but man woman man
and woman can yeah and it it may it may be connected to that posterity I mean
there's a there could be a direct connection to that posterity I was doing research in the
um um in the Masonic temple years ago in I believe it was in Philadelphia this time and I was down in the basement
Library basement doing research and I was going through their books on on their is the library of the Masonic
temple yeah okay and and it was down in the basement back then I think most of it still is and and um I was going
through their records and their and the books that they had in there trying to find the symbol but behind even their
their um uh clothing and the apron um the apron was explained even within
their books that it represented the Fig leaves that were sewed together
to cover Adam and Eve's nakedness within their te within their Traditions within their text interesting so there are some
interesting things about the apron the apron shows up all all over the place I mean we see
it almost in the um be the Testament of Levi in The Testament of the 12 Patriarchs chapter six interesting okay
but there's so there's there's this hierarchal or or or sequential response
from Adam and Eve to God when he's saying what are you what's going on here what's happening right and and and we go
back and and and uh uh Adam at first I don't know if we you the way it would
usually be described is that he's deferring his his sin over to Eve right what's going on and he says well the
woman you gave me beguiled me and and and and and I listen to her right and I
partake of the fruit and and he gives it over to Eve and then and then Eve takes that and puts it over to Satan says
right the serpent beguiled me I did partake and and and I did eat and and because the serpent beguiled me so it's
like they're deferring their guilt over to somebody else right is
there anything else going on there with that you know there I think there I think there could be I mean Adam says
the woman thou gavest me and commanded that she should remain with me you know and people say well first he blames God
and then he blames the woman but then he he confesses and says and I did eat you
know he's he's saying I did eat and then he then he questions Eve Eve says the serpent beguiled me she didn't again say
that I wanted to get things rolling or I wanted to have kids or anything uh she says the serpent beguile me then he
turns to The Serpent and he says basically I'm you know as we learn in the temple I'm just doing things that have been done on other worlds I think
the interesting thing is is the way that the by the way so Satan actually defers
also he does this is the pattern just following the pattern yeah yeah the the deferment of responsibility is is just p
is always is passed back to God even Satan says I'm doing that which you've done other world you know I'm doing the same thing that you've done elsewhere
and so he's deferring it even back to God I think one of the interesting things is is first he questions Adam
then he questions Eve then he questions a serpent and then the burdens or the cursing comes to the serpent and then to
Eve and then to Adam it reverses it reverses the the order in which it was
it it began um to make a conclusion there with which is connected is coming back and
directly connected to the abrahamic Covenant because if if you look at priesthood posterity and
inheritance that comes right back to Adam and Eve the the posterity you know
in sorrow shalt thou conceive and bear children sorrow the sorrow the word sorrow it's used in that context both
for Adam and Eve means to work or to labor to toil in pain that there's going to be there's going to be suffering or
pain involved in what you do but he says in sorrow shalt thou bring forth children so that that's connected back
to that Abra to that what we call the abrahamic Covenant of posterity and then
um priesthood is is when it comes back to Adam the subduing the Earth Adam has
to work by the sweat of his brow in order to earn bread in sorrow it says it uses the same word in sorrow the same
word that's used for for Eve in bearing children it uses the same word in creating an an inheritance that's coming
back to that inheritance that Adam has to create he has to subdue the Earth but priesthood is is interesting because
that comes back to the uh um to the rule you know that he shall rule over
Thee Well the word for Rule and and it says and thy desire shall be to thy husband and he shall rule over Thee Well
the word for desires is is shoke H and it means in Hebrew shank leg
or thigh which if you go back into the roots into the Hebrew Roots it means to
hold up support or sustain and then it says and he shall rule over thee and I
think as president um Kimble said that just means that he is uh not to to rule in the way that we
think that we look at yeah exactly it just means that he's uh he's the
presidency of this of this Union leadership leadership yeah somebody there has to be a final word somewhere
and that's what it is it's the patriarch so we see this abrahamic Covenant
shifting and showing up in a in a different way for mortality than it was when it was given to Adam and Eve at the
time of their creation you have you have priesthood posterity and inheritance in you know to
multiply and replenish the Earth so do the Earth and have dominion and Joseph Smith said that Dominion is the
priesthood given to Adam and Eve and then when it comes down to the to the fall we see the exact same thing we have
posterity multiply and replenish the Earth in sorrow shalt thou bring forth children to subdue the Earth you're
going to have to do it by the sweat of your brow and and then the priesthood is
because they had the patriarchal priesthood the priesthood comes down so thy desires you're going to hold up
support and sustain your husband and he's going to be the administrator he's going to rule over the you know rules a
wrong word so we see the same three elements that were given at the time the
creation showing up after the fall in what we sometimes call cursings but I
think that's the blessings for for eternity and then Abraham is a restoration of those
blessings back the way they were before the fall if we actually I mean you can find all three of those blessings
posterity Eternal posterity uh Eternal inheritance and eternal
priesthood and those are all in the book of Abraham yes exactly yeah they all are covered in there in in the book of
Abraham so so again you say curses that's the way we look at it but they're blessings as well aren't
they I mean isn't this the blessing of of being in a fallen State because there is a blessing because without the Fallen
State there's no opposition as as Lehi says without a fallen State we're not going to learn and grow and develop and
have empathy and charity for for those around us as we experience sorrow and pain ourselves yeah it's a it's a
freedom you can't have agency without that fall you have to have that follow you have to be able to become one of us knowing good
from Evil now there's a power in knowing good from Evil the power in knowing good from Evil is the power to do good or
evil that's where the agency comes in and so without that there is no agency
there is no moral agency is there anything in the garden of Ed count you really wanted to talk
about oh gosh C got that much time
no I think you've done a good job there's just uh I think I think the important thing is let the scriptures
speak for themselves let Eve speak for herself she says she was deceived she
says she wouldn't have known anything about it she wouldn't have known about children she wouldn't have known about the salvation or the the Redemption she
wouldn't have known anything and Adam says the same thing in verse 10 of chapter 5 and we sometimes get so caught up in
Tradition well 've just wanted things going on uh she wanted to get to have kids she wanted to have kids and she
wanted to get things moving and it all comes back down to that whole concept of the two conflicting Commandments which
do not exist within scripture and and tradition is stronger than Doctrine so I
I understand that tradition will reign re much longer than scripture will well
it's almost like we're afraid sometimes to to blame or or that
that we can have an icon like Eve do something wrong and and the problem with
that is just like as we're told in the temple that that you know you should be you know act as if you are Adam or Eve
we're we're projecting in some way I think ourselves onto them exactly where where we're saying well I don't want the
blame I don't want to think that I'm doing something wrong right and yet that's how we learn you know it's it's
Joseph Smith wasn't perfect Moses certainly wasn't perfect right and and
so and look at Elma and the Elder and younger you know it's like okay I can
learn from these individuals because they went from here to here yeah and and
change and if we remove these ideas of cursings and and
consequences from the scriptural characters and try to make them just
perfect what do we how can they even know what you would feel how would they
even know how to write what they write about the Redemption of Jesus Christ you know the the best word for cursing is is
used in in Isaiah it shows up in Isaiah all the time and it says the burden of
so and so the burden of so and so well it becomes a burden but that burden is always is always a blessing that burden
is a blessing to assist us in growing whatever that burden might be the Lord tells Adam he says you're going to sweat
and you're going to labor all the days of your life but he says don't worry about it don't worry about it because you get to die you know dust Thou Art
and unto dust shalt thou return so he says even though you're going to have to work hard and you're going to have to labor all the days of your life you're
going to get to die you're going to be able to die so don't don't even worry about it Joseph Smith made an interesting statement and it shows up in
our Book of Mormon I think twice um it says for it was not given unto Adam and
Eve to partake of the fruit so that it wasn't given unto them they weren't they didn't have to partake
of the fruit for it was not given unto Adam and Eve to partake of the fruit but it was given unto them to die is Joseph
Smith statement and I think it's it could be Elma it could be Lehi where he
says for it was given unto man to die it was given unto Adam and Eve to die
making the same statement as Joseph Smith so the important thing was that they entered into a mortal world because
there are all those Spirits waiting to come waiting to come to the Earth that needed mortal progenitors they needed
those mortal progenitors the even section uh 40 49 of the Doctrine
covenants verses 15-1 17 um 15 just says you need to get
married and um 16 says that that a a man
and uh should have one wife and the twain become one flesh going back to to
Moses and Genesis and Abraham um in order that they become one flesh in
order that the Earth might answer the ends of its creation the whole purpose
of the cre creation of the earth is so that a man and woman can be sealed that a man I think that's in
verse 16- 49 that a man should have one wife and the twain become one flesh all this that the Earth might answer the
ends of its creation and then it says in the next verse in verse 17 that it might
be filled with the measure of man that was created before the foundation of the world all of those Spirits waiting to
come down so the whole purpose of the creation is for a sealing of a man and
woman so that they can have posterity yeah and you need bodies for
that yep and uh you know I just going to bring this up by you know I think I
don't know how many times it's mentioned I think it's only mentioned in the Book of Mormon maybe it's in the doctrine covenants but there's there's the term
plan of happiness I've never liked that term I I don't like it it feels like you
know again going back to this idea of opposition and and and working from the sweat of your brow and sorrow and all of
these other things look at Abraham's life look at Jesus's life yeah what you know what is
happiness there what does that mean and and I think this idea of a plan of happiness is like well if I obey all of
these Commandments and check all of the boxes there's just going to be this Elation this euphoria that I'm gonna be
in this state you know with things and it's like I I I don't know I I I I I I
again to me it plays into that idea of let's get the consequences yeah you know because because then we can be happy
yeah there's I think Eve puts it right when she says the joy of our Redemption
The Joy yeah and and it says that in the book of Mor and even even Lehi there in Chapter 2 men are that they might have
joy in their Redemption Joy doesn't end no matter how happy or unhappy you don't
you you become it's like to me it's like going to Disneyland I'm having a lot of
fun and a lot of Happiness while I'm on that while I'm on that roller coaster ride but when I'm off from it that
happiness is that that fun is gone but I can still have joy in that Redemption no
matter what I'm doing no matter where I'm at so so when you look at joy in scripture Joy usually is connected to
the to realizing the reality of your Redemption
and your relationship with Christ so baby plan of happiness is not quite the
best way I like that that's great Bruce really appreciate your time again your knowledge and and sharing all these
things with us it's always a joy to hear what you have to say so thanks for
coming on all right thank you Greg take care
