A Shadow Faith Has Risen Within The LDS Church

Associate Professor Brent Yergensen has just written the most comprehensive and clarifying work on the Pride movement within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. His conclusion? A Shadow Faith has risen in the church!

His Paper, Shadow Faith or Organizational Breakoff?
Inflection Points and the Symbolic Convergence of Latter-day
Saint Subculture was recently published by an academic journal.

Here is the paper - https://cdr.creighton.edu/server/api/core/bitstreams/8c5efbfa-87d1-4c0f-b037-3ad6a76cdfa5/content

Brent Yergensen (Ph.D., University of Nebraska-Lincoln) is Department Chair and Associate Professor of Communication at The University of Texas at Tyler. His research focuses on the intersections of religion, science, politics, and history with mass media, especially film. He teaches primarily in media theory and history, rhetorical theory and criticism, research methods, and organizational communication.

 Raw Transcript

I really think this is a very important episode and this paper written by Professor Jurgensson needs to be read,
addressed, and discussed. Now, this episode is brought to you by Go and Do Travel and the Wavemakers podcast for
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There a shadow faith that is growing, developing inside of the restored church with its
own ideas, its own doctrine in some cases, its own rituals, its own
gatherings. It seems to be the case for those that hold up the banner of pride and the
tenants of its movement which are obviously against the doctrines,
principles, and tenants of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. What do you need to do to coexist within the
structure of the church? And as this movement grows, and it is, and gains
more steam, more energy, more excitement for those that participate in it, what
is the inevitable outcome? The way I typically frame this is it is a rivalry
between a hope in change, which ultimately
gets to the temple and same-sex marriage in the temple. Of course, it goes beyond
that, but that's the ultimate idea, the the iconic goal in mind, the energy that
is infused in those that participate in this versus a hope in Christ. There is a
disparity here. Now, I want to say something. I want to qualify this. That doesn't mean that those that are involved with these organizations and
movements and online groups that are supporting a pride agenda
and I do mean agenda not support for the just support for the individuals. It doesn't mean that they don't have a hope
in Christ. You can read some of the organizations we're going to talk about gather and others here where their
websites talk about a faith in Jesus Christ. But ultimately the faith in
Jesus Christ is about repentance and going through that straight and narrow
gate and way. I am the way, the life and the light. Right? Or I can kind of pull
things back a little bit, loosen things and say, well, we can change some of these doctrines. Some of the reasoning
is, well, polygamy changed or blacks and the priesthood. Neither of which are
very good arguments for changing the order of the family. I feel for those that go through these problems that have
these strong identity issues fuamented by our culture and I think there needs
to be a real love and outreach to them. However, mercy cannot rob justice. And
creating this idea that, hey, if you just wait a little bit longer, the church is going to change like they have
on these other issues, I think is incredibly damaging to youth especially,
but to everyone who might struggle with these types of issues or their families that struggle with these issues. You see
this agenda growing within the church. There are some areas where perhaps it's not. I get messaging back that it's not,
but hundreds, maybe thousands now of contacts and emails from those who give
examples of what they've seen in church. We had a bishop here recently in a local ward on the stand wearing a pride flag.
You have things mentioned in your auxiliary meetings, in Relief Society, in priesthood, and in young men and
young women's classes, and even at FSY. I know that a
lot of people are worried think that the the great evil is atheism and ultimately
it does come to that point. But the Book of Mormon is not about fighting against the atheists. It's about fighting
against the dissenters. People that still had a religious belief, still believed in many core principles of the
gospel, but those dissenters all eventually break off from the Nephites.
Is that the ultimate end for this? Are people in those organizations going to face a choice? Because the changes to
the ordinances between men and women being sealed together for eternity is
not going to change. It's not going to change. That has nothing to do with my
opinion. That has nothing to do with biases. That has to do with truth,
eternal truth. That has to do with the order of the family and the doctrine of Christ. you would have to rip the guts
out of the entire gospel if you were to change these things. And sometimes you'll get the argument, well, if you
don't make these changes, almost like a threat. It is a threat. If you don't make these changes, look, these people
are going to leave. And that might be true, and it's happened many, many, many times. But stop and think about how many
people would leave if it did change. If you're just looking at more practical,
nonprphetic, non-doctrinal issues, how there would be a massive exodus from the
church. And where is the church growing the most? It's growing in the poorer,
conservative, familyoriented areas of Africa, the Philippines, still in Latin
America, where none of this indoctrination of a pride movement has
infiltrated their society. Very little. What would it do to the growth of the church? We just had the
numbers come out for the last 12-month period. The most amount of converts,
number of converts in any 12-month period in the history of the church,
what would happen there? So, those types of threats mean nothing. And ultimately, it doesn't even matter. What matters is
the truth. And substituting a hope for change and an energy for liberation of
our sexuality outside of the order of God might work with several Christian
denominations as it has and will continue to have successes, but it's not going to happen here. You don't need to
just wait until these old white men die off until new people come in with new ideas and now it's going to all change.
Are we going to change the doctrine of Christ as well? The core of the doctrine of Christ. That's what they did in the
Book of Mormon. I've talked to several people that think there will be a change, believe strongly there will be a
change in this, and they talk about, you know, concentric circles where you have these core beliefs in the very center
that that won't change. But then these other doctrines
uh on on these outer rings of this concentric circle, well, those are those are pliable. Those
can be changed. The problem is is those things continue to expand and those core doctrines
continue to expand and have more concentric circles within them with that kind of an attitude, that type of a view
of truth. So, is there a shadow faith growing? Yes, I believe there is. And it's organizing, it's building
leadership, and it's codifying these hopes and this energy similar to what happened with the ordained women
movement that are setting people up for a spiritual crisis that I think goes far
beyond much more foundational than even an idea of your sexual orientation, your
identity. I've invited Brent Jurgensson on to talk about this growing development, this shadow faith. He wrote
an 82page paper that's been published on the developments and the growth of these
organizations within the restored church. All right. So, do you think that there is a a
movement, a shadow faith as you call it, within the church that focuses on their
own set of doctrines? And if so, where is this going to lead?
Yeah, that's the right question. Um I I think there's two
outcomes with this. The first is what already happens when people I guess we could say uh leave the church. They do
it individually. It's individual frustrations. It's whatever it may be.
And uh they leave individually. We've seen I guess we could call it mass gatherings
not necessarily of of of the resignation moments in in pre in previous years.
Mhm. So that is already on tumbling with this movement. Uh but uh it depends on
the leadership that that that and I wasn't able to get into that with the with the study which I hope I can expound upon a little bit more. A leader
needs to emerge. A leader needs to emerge who has the different kind the characteristics of what it takes to say
we are going as a group. Now, if you look at the analysis, you'll see that I think that there are some individuals
who have strains of that. It's not there yet because the main I guess we could
say material under they see it as negotiation within the church is the
church's doctrine. We'll just add enough pressure. We'll have enough people. We'll have we'll have a big enough group
that church leadership will have to simply adjust to us. And we're expecting it and we're praying for it. You saw two
prominent members of the church Ed Gathers event. It was covered by the Salt Lake Tribune saying we're praying
for this. We're expecting it. We've done it before with with the the blacks in the priesthood thing kind of a thing.
But it needs to a leader need I wasn't able to elaborate on this. leader needs to emerge that has the different kind of
characteristics that would suggest that they're they're brazen enough that they
will agitated enough and that they will be ready to say I'm receiving revelation. I am um chosen to do this
and everyone follow me. We've seen over 80 different breakouts from the church and church history. Um and uh most of
them been very very small. Some of them were larger. And so you you there needs
to be a leader that has that personality to do it. Whether or not the current
leadership and influencers can do that. We don't know yet. It depends how
frustrated they get and how much they believe their revelations. Uh and I I
cite that in the study. There's descriptions of receiving revelation of how things need to adjust. And so I I
guess the short answer is I think that it will happen. I do think there's going to be a
breakoff. I I don't know if that's a few years or decades down the road. And the
reason why I think it will is because we're talking about a human impulse. We're talking about one of the the the
senses of of the biology in the mind, human sexuality, that will never be subsumed. So as long as people are are
are wanting liberation and as long as the larger culture is drastically different than what uh the church is
teaching and the church expects and the the moves of the church is making there will continue to be this rhetorical rift
and differentiation uh probably down the road unless other things intervene. So we're looking at
this in a way that okay if there's if there is eventually a split off it's happened as you said 80 times in church history before. We're in an environment
where there's a strong focus on a gathering of Israel, right? It's pulling everybody together. We're building Zion.
It's it's bringing everybody from different, you know, from different cultures, from different countries, from
different races. There's an excitement kind of about that in the church right now. All the growth in Africa and the
Philippines and continued growth in Latin America, you know, everybody loves that. It's great. And there's this sense
of gathering Israel there. Yet on this issue, it's it's almost well, let me put it
this way. Let me kind of between the thought of gathering Israel and and a breakoff somewhere. Yeah. There is a
bridge thought I would say that that is well for LGBTQ members of the church and
for their families and those that support them, their friends. This is a way say example for example lift and
learn. lift is it lift and learn or lift and love and it's love gather that's the same organization I think yeah it's the
same organization as gather and so it's that this kind of an organization allows people of like that are like-minded have
the same issues the same problems and helps them in a sense stay within the
church almost this little bridge that says well yeah they're the way they are
the the the Orthodox church and we're the way we are but here's this bridge
because you Look at the at the language of the websites for example. It's it's let's focus on Christ. Let's focus on
Christ and gather together. Yet underlying all of this there is the way
I distinguish it is is there is still a hope for change over a hope for Christ.
And and it's it speaks to this liberation that you're speaking of. What do you say to someone that says, 'N no,
this is something that helps my child, for example, who is LGBTQ
stay in the church and find a a a uh what a a vernacular, a group, a a a
doctrine that allows them to stay in the church.
Yeah. Um well first initially is is the importance of of
gather or any influencers's message about compassion and the the the
elements that people are going through with this whether it be and uh sexuality or what we what we're commonly defining
as identity. Um, and we all share that. Both of those who I would say are doctrinal loyalists or covenant path
loyalists versus those that kind of are are pushing for a doctrinal change. And
so I would more assertively say, and this is from my analysis, is
uh the long-term outcome isn't that this is encouraging necessarily the covenant
path because if if you listen to the rhetoric, you listen to the discourse of these influencers and and I guess we
could say watch the the gather events, they're establishing a conditional faith
uh in in doctrine and and in church leadership uh especially with what's happening at some point I want to talk I
hope we can talk about the the inflection points particularly the policy changes in August 2024
but there the the only real shared element between I I think we can say these two elements of of these two
different types of members of the church of what's happening maybe covenant doctrinal loyalists and I I maybe we
could say uh activists is on these very basic things he already mentioned that
of of love of of a testimony of Christ, then it gets very very different very
very quickly. All right? And so there's an element of continue to pray, continue to hope that the church leadership is
going to adjust, continue to pray that church leadership is going to awaken to
these types of things and how they need to better minister. Ministering resources are already there. All right? And there's different kinds of
compassion there as well. But then there's this conditional phase of don't fully embrace, don't fully uh um I guess
we could say um engage in maybe the family proclamation and the family
proclamation and the temple endowment is essentially the same thing. If you look at the details of what we're talking,
it's kind of the same thing. Talking about resistance to the temple endowment at the same time. So it's that put that
on the shelf with your faith. Uh we we don't know how how necessary that is.
It's a conditional faith that's established kind of a thing. So it'll last a while kind of a thing. But
conditional faith is distrusting faith. Distrusting faith leads to disappointment. Disappointment leads to
regret and frustration. Frustration leads to leaving. And when you have enough people that are sharing the same
discourse, particularly sharing the same organization over time, eventually there's going to be a rift. And so
there's really two messages in this uh the poll I guess we could say for for
members in this study is first realize the power of these discourses and the or
the organizing power of these discourses. Second is realize how differentiated uh uh they really are and
you've probably seen in your life. I've seen in my life and these types of things the more you get agitated a small
thing and then you find a new camp that's offering an alternative it's probably not sustaining long time
and that's something to be compassionate and to be kind about people saying gather provide this particular kind of
thing. At the same time, if it's reliant upon a criticism of the proclamation on
the family and I I guess we could say the church's focus and on heterosexual
marriage and the policy clarifications in August 2024, you it's it's it's a small piece at a
time. these small little moments that that are differentiating and leading
away uh from what President Nelson and what other church leaders are pursuing.
So it's it's a very subtle thing. You won't see yourself doing it initially of of being critical. it it it it'll happen
over years and and it what what these uh I guess we could say activists are
really doing is saying have faith in the basic things expect larger changes um
and uh over over time it it it creates a a psychology of frustration and and what
my analysis goes into is as those are shared more and more and more and more particular as people gather physically
which is happening and as people I guess we could they uh gather under I guess
following influencers type of a thing. Mhm. Um it uh it it changes the way that
you see the church. Uh yeah. Yeah. It it's you know the it's it's critical
theory. I mean, it's you you you you step you put a toe into it for a little
while and and before you know it, and I see this especially with youth, especially college age, you know, young
adults, is is you start moving in that that that victim versus oppressor
dynamic. And before you know it, because you're such a part of the church and
it's so much a part of your life, you start looking at the 15 older, mostly white men. Yeah. as the oppressors
and and they're oppressing LGBTQ individuals. They're oppressing women. They're oppressing whatever other
dynamic you want to throw in there to divide between the victims and and the oppressors. And it it's a natural a very
natural conclusion to end up at with the church. And and I I see this and and
once you get to that point, that's usually where you say, "Well, I I may I may be done
with the church, at least for now, right?" And and it's it's a real wedge
to put between you and the church once you get there. Um I was going to ask you then on what about you talked about the
family proclamation. Let's go back to 1995, you know, and and most most Orthodox members of the church are going
to say, "Okay, well, yeah, I remember that." and we talk about how it seemed so um obvious at the time in 1995.
Um this was just a few years actually after
Kimberly Krenshaw comes up with critical race theory and intersectionality which is really interesting because that is a
a a movement a philosophy that is pushed directly against the family
proclamation. But what is this going to be even more of a
lightning rod in the future? I I look at BYU, which I know has changed its hiring practices. They're actually using the
family proclamation in interviews and and and annual interviews and hiring
practices. It it just seems to me like it is a litmus test,
not just for BYU, but for members of the church, as you say, it it parallels the
endowment and our and our temple rituals. Is this going to become more and more of a lightning rod for us? Yes.
And I think that that's one of the main things of why I wanted to write this is
the the the Gather group and and its associated influencers. They say that there's more in common with their
discourse uh with with what they're teaching uh than there is differences.
They at least they imply that. I don't want to put words in their mouth. It's actually the opposite. And and so one of
the things I expound upon in the article is that Don H. Oaks is in line to be the next
president of Catholic Church. And at least President Nelson in previous general conference said he will replace
me. Uh he said he will replace me. And um and so you have that I had the the
quote from my article from from President Oaks here. I have so much so many notes, Greg. There's probably got a
moment where you're going to uh edit it. You're good. But the the difference is so uh contrasted that President Oaks
recently said, "Those who don't understand or are critical of the family proclamation do not understand how
foundational this is uh to the doctrines of the church." So when you when you so
you talk about a lightning rod that this the strike is going to be over and over and over again. And that's why uh the
one of the main reasons I wrote this was the policy clarifications in August
2024. The church said uh not only if someone transitions uh medically but socially
there will not be a temple recommend kind of a thing. go to the bathroom
according to your uh birth. I guess we could say uh your biology presented in
biology. And so the the church is is pulling away from from this I guess we
could say a critical approach. And that sounds like I'm saying the church adopted a critical approach. It didn't. But but there's there's there has been
operates much more a local level this kind of dance with critical theory with with with with all all of these elements
of of justice. And I I I think we could say of empowerment,
but I think over the last two years, we've seen a whoa whoa whoa and particular in a lot of general conference talks and particularly with
those the policy clarifications in August 2024. The church is not going to be influenced an inch by these movements
uh kind of a thing. And so I I I cite a scholar in there who who who describes
the element of of sexuality and and and the sex drive. And I don't want to make the topic about that, but that's
something that's permanent. It's it's like hunger. It's like thirst. It's it's going to always always always be there.
So those that would say those who demand change eventually will either fizz out.
This won't uh be an important thing um or that it'll succeed could not be more
wrong. There's been a line drawn in the sand. Ben Shelotti who I cite a lot in the study years ago said the brethren
have drawn a line in the sand. In August 2024, they drew a line in the sand and
Oaks has been particularly uh influential with this that
I don't know how else to explain it that the church is is the church is responding to these
particular efforts in an assertive way of you still need to talk about and and
embrace compassion, but the covenant path is is not what these influencers
are promoting and uh pursuing. And that will lead to severe disappointment because within the theoretical framework
that I talk about that fantasy themes fantasy themes are people start talking about same thing oh you had that
experience I had that experience and so we share that frustration they end up with a rhetorical vision that is what
they want to do when there's rhetorical vision people form formal organizations and they pursue change right they start
their own company u um I guess we could say in a business type of setting and so
we're looking at a very stormy future uh for members of the church of following
these influencers of of trying I I call it covert these covert shadow elements
of uh of trying to subtly change things versus I think we could we could say
church leadership saying absolutely not there will not be change and so that
those August 2024 policy clarifications were so upsetting They're so frustrating uh to uh I keep
saying gather as if gather represents everybody. They don't they don't represent everyone. My the editor wanted me to have a specific organization to
study. So so gathers there but but versus those voices basically uh coming
to understand uh we will not persuade uh the church. I think right now they still
think they can. I think with enough pressure I think they think they're going to encou convince the church.
Well, it seems to me that it's it's it's kind of like, you know, if you're an influencer,
you've kind of already made that assumption and a number of them have already made that assumption and and the
following is based on that to me is a lot of what the energy is, right? Again,
is that hope of change and and so to come back and say, well, we're not ever looking at that. That's never going to
be a thing. Once you start building conferences and a following and everything else, you you've now put,
you know, at at peril that that following and and those organizations and those events uh in place because
there is that certain energy that is that is very obvious in this. I mean, you had I don't remember if it was
Gather or who, but you had an ameritus 70 recently who just came in and said, "Yeah, we're, you know, I I I have a
grandchild that is uh this way or a couple of them, and I'm hoping for a change. I'm, you know, I'm hoping that
this changes." And so, you can see that this is starting to infiltrate very
high levels, you know, of of of the church even. And it's I think people have their opinions
on on this and the and and and the church has chosen which I fully support. I believe that
they're probably right. They know a lot more about this than you or I do. But they've they've chosen not to be brazen
on this. You know, whether it's uh whether it's uh an issue for the members
or uh specifically in the Western world as compared to the rest of the world because the rest of the world isn't
going to have a problem with it. But uh you know they're they're caught between a maybe a rock
and a hard place right now. Yeah, this is I think this is the hardest time. Well uh in I maybe we could say in the
last hundred years for church leaders to navigate something uh Joseph and and and
other presidents of church you know temples being burned down moving from state to state the difficulty there. And
so I think to a degree there was this element of of peace. There's still criticism, but the last
15, 20 years, the the the task of of church leadership has has uh been
railroaded with cultural revolutions that have been so significant and and so powerful that you end up with these uh
physical gatherings. And that's a particular thing I'm glad you mentioned that because you can go to these gather
conferences. They do them regionally, but I think they do their larger annual conference in June. I think it's associated with Pride Month. And you
mentioned that there was an ameritus 70 who was there. I think he was the keynote speaker and saying everything
that he could to uh essentially let let's let's pray for the toppling of of
the family proclamation. Essentially, he didn't say that. I don't want to misquote him, but that was the implication. We can say that that was
the implication. And so when people one gather physically these types of things,
it's essentially church service and based on their priorities and their uh gospel type of thing. And second, when
you get particular power, particularly powerful voices speaking that way,
people start to believe that these things are going to change. They start to believe that the that there's going to be a uh a massive change in the
church. I cite the BYU Hawaii affirmation chapter president because I
read that article uh years ago where the where the the young man said I guess
because this was after the um the honor code clarification
under under Paul V Johnson that same there be no samesex dating. And the
young man said, "I guess I'll just have to wait a bit longer." Wait a little bit longer for the church to change. And
we're thinking, "What is this young man reading?" No, it's a very common phrase.
It's a very common thing to to see out there. Wait a little bit longer. And so then fast forward to August 2024, plus
so many other addresses that uh that that I I go over in in in the in the
study. these inflection points of the church is very very clear. There will not be changes. So those that support I
guess we could say I don't like to throw out the word conservative and liberal. I think things are much more nuanced than
we think. But I can I think we could say that kind of conservative angle on sexuality and identity. And the the for
people that really embrace that, I guess we could say right wing rightwing angle,
the church is doing exactly what they would want with these inflection points, particularly some some of these key uh
addresses. And as I mentioned, I mentioned in the study and at the end of the study, Oaks is in the way. There
couldn't be an apostle with a more assertive voice who clarifies elements
of of what's regarded in the church's morality than Oaks. He addresses it all the time. He gave almost the same speech
the in 2022 that Holland did in 2021. He just worded it differently than Holland
did. That the speech the title of the of his talk at BYU was almost the same as Holland's uh fiery uh speech. And so the
the church isn't going uh to adjust the church, but it's it's an impossible
it's an impossible balance of of still wanting to be included and wanting to be the the compassionate and the
understanding voice. But if you don't do it the way that influencers and the way that I guess we could say um
um advocates uh activists do, uh you can't win kind of a thing. So a group
like Gather and other others that have the same sentiment on this um I mean
this is kind of a movement. It really is a movement I would say within the church. Is do you are we in a a state
right now where that movement would be trying to reform the church from within
or is it already in a place where it's a kind of a rival ecclesiastical
structure? it it doesn't want to be a rival structure. It is it is by its
teachings, but it doesn't want to be. And and this is this is my conclusion. Um I kind I only lightly talked about
this in the study and why I answered earlier that I don't think that there's going to be a an immediate I guess we
could say uh alternative that emerges. The church has a lot of members. The
church has a lot of resources. And so why go start new
when you can simply cause internal change? So they they they see that their their request from church leadership is
small. Change these doctrines, make these alterations, and everything is going to work. They they think that
doctrine is up for negotiation. And and that's what they're doing. And so they they'll do everything they can uh to not
be a rival. And so they're they're very very good in their rhetorical approach
to to talk about basic principles kind of thing. But then they'll talk about how
um if I'm a man, I'm receiving uh revelation out to to date men. Uh kind
of a thing or um you know, I'm I'm I'm receiving revelation of of of what's
going to happen. Or on my podcast, I am celebrating the end of a temple marriage
between a man and a woman so that someone can go rediscover their true uh partner kind of thing. That can't
contrast more than what Russell and Nelson and Dan H. jokes from Jeffrey R. Holland and Aman Corbett and and so many
others are saying as long along with the proclamation and deeply embedded if I can add this Greg what is more deeply
embedded with the doctrine of I guess we could say the plan of salvation than the
temple endowment and we don't talk about the details of the temple endowment but anyone who's been through there and
studied it it's beginning to end kind of a thing of of of of the earth and and
throughout our lives and has everything to do with man and woman has everything to do with that union has everything to
do uh with what what's uh defined in the church as chastity kind of a thing. So
at the very heart of the church's doctrine, these influencers are
juxtaposing their message and their followers to be pinned against that uh
type of a thing. It can't last. It it won't last. You bring up the law of chastity. It just is
so interesting in watching this and and you know because I've kind of got my ear to the ground on all of this and you
have you have this denial of the law of chastity to begin with but then you
almost have a reformation of the law of chastity. Okay, it's saying, well, you know, it's it's moving the goalpost on
this and saying, well, adultery is bad, but outside of that, right, you know,
having having, you know, sex with a man and a man or a woman and a woman or, you know, is that that's okay. I mean, it's
blatant. It's very blatantly changing what we believe is the law of chastity.
Yeah. which is something we focus on in the temple into in into something else.
And and that's always the question I have. Well, do you believe in the law of chastity? And and it's usually yes, but
kind of an answer. It it it's it's tweaking it. And it goes along with a lot of other things that I see that are
basically taking the top end of that. you referenced the plan of salvation, the top end of that of exaltation
and just kind of slicing it off and leaving everything else there.
And and that's what I see with all of this. It's yeah, this is good in some ways. You
want to you want to have good virtues. You want to have good characteristics. It's about following Christ, but
ultimately it's about slicing off that top end of the plan of salvation and and and
putting it to the side. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. And that's why
that's why even though right now I'm making the case that it's an it's it's an organizational shadow kind of a
thing. it's operating among members temple recommend holders uh kind of a thing but things like pins on on Bishop
Rick's uh suit kind of a thing doing a shout out in sacrament meeting comments
in gospel doctrine kind of a thing and so it's it's I think these more I guess
we could say covert efforts are more powerful than the overt ones because it's a belief that we can slowly change
the dial and it's also a belief that church leadership is going to be very persuaded uh by these kinds of kinds of
things. Uh but at the same time as you march and march and march towards that
uh you'll realize that you're not going to get what you want. And that's why I I
use organizational uh theory throughout this. This is what this is why some companies for example will you explain
that a little bit? Yeah. The explain the organizational theory. Yeah.
So I'm I'm using Orus Borman. He was a very very uh influential uh scholar in
my field. He predated the what we would call the critical and the postmodern turn as you mentioned. He was interested
of why people gather uh different ter why people get together why people
become frustrated and why new organizations emerge or new nations emerge. So he he studied the
revolutionary war and it starts with people sharing of stories and so that's what those that element of those fantasy
themes are as you go through the study. Fantasy themes are when people share these stories of having the same type of
experience. And so, oh, your bishop said that to me that upset me. Uh, the same thing
happened to me type of a thing. And so, the fantasy themes are that there's a distressed irreconcilability
uh among these members. That is you're ne they're never going to reconcile the elements and the efforts of gather with
the the core of church doctrine. is not going to be uh put together. And so that's a permanent ri frustration that
that's a permanent lack of I I guess we could say um fake uh kind of a thing. So
then these alternative beliefs and these alternative different kind of discourses emerge. You start to see a new
leadership structure and when and that's what Bor Borman was talking about. When you see new leaders emerge of this group
that's sharing their frustrations, they start to have a new vision and that
new vision creates a brand new organization. And so that's why I'm saying we might they might be headed
there we might be headed to towards I don't want to say to gather gather could maybe be the pre recursory element to
this gather might be dissolved at some point but down the road with the current
trajectory of we could say what the what I I guess we could say secular um
nonlatter-day saint beliefs and and assumptions about what needs to happen in the world as those continue to unroll
the church is going to continually be pinned against these things and though that it's going to be go further and
further and further. Well, when you see that, when you see the world saying this is compassion and this is what's true
and this is what what we're supposed to do here on earth versus uh uh uh Russell
Nelson and and Don H. Jokes over here, it's easy to say, "Let's copy that and
we'll do it over here and uh guess what? We could probably get a lot more people following us." That type of a thing. And
so that's I think that's what we're seeing the beginning of it. And so that's what Borman essentially argued.
He he studied the the American Revolution. The American Revolution came because people started getting ticked
off about little things. Why am I paying these stupid taxes to people that was king across the sea kind of thing. So he studied all these speeches and and and
these conversations that took place. Ultimately you end up with leaders that emerge. All right. The founding fathers
that say we're done. We're not paying taxes. Leave. If not, we're going to fight you. And uh that's what happens
everywhere. That's how new countries emerge. Um that's how new I mentioned new organizations emerge. And that's why
I think sometime down the road. If groups of people decide to continue
this path, there will be an abandonment. And we don't see ourselves doing that initially. We don't see ourselves saying
I would never. Well, we always say I would never until we don't get what we want long enough or until someone says
something or does something that's frustrating enough that say okay, we need to make an alteration. And those
August 2024 policy clarifications were a they operated they functioned as
a as a whiplash uh to to Gather's type of efforts and initiatives. And I don't
want to say that everyone in Gather has the same focus um kind of a thing. There's different kind of voices
emerging, but I think we'd say the leadership of it. Do we see with social media now a a uh I
mean you look at Osler and Shelotti as an example and and are we seeing more of a a populist spiritual insurgency
with this where where you have again that energy of change
right through social media and gathering right um versus a prophetic narrative
that we have already in the church. Oh yeah. And so that that that word populace that comes with so much
negative uh baggage, but I think it does capture what's happening here. Um, if if
you were to to say to give church leadership the uh and its resources and
give those same types of resources and voice to um we we could say these these
influencers and and these YouTubers and have them force everyone in the world to
listen to these two voices. probably the only the only group that
would prefer the maybe the um the I guess we could say the Russell Nelson
voice would be the people in Africa kind of a thing because it's that focus on traditional what we would call morality
that's that's there and so yeah the the populist element of um liberation um no
more oppression um LGBTQ pride and the church can go hand in hand that is
driving and driving and and driving these elements uh kind of a thing. And so it's it's very very attractive.
There's a swagger that comes with it. There's a style that comes with it. Uh we could say that there's a pop culture
uh that comes with it that's that's entering the church type of type of a thing. and uh and and so yeah, you have
the church functioning in and of itself and then you have this shadow organization and it's it's not
necessarily unified but it has it's its individual warriors that are embedded in
wards kind of a thing and uh I think we could say that the whispering that
emerges in these small little ways come to our LGBTQ book of Mormon study come to our LGBTQ
devote emotional that we're going to have uh type of a thing. And that implants and other members of the church
this element of the church doesn't love these people enough. The church isn't doing enough. The church isn't
ultimately willing because of the of the August 2024 policy clarifications. The church is never going to understand
these people. And uh that's when you start the clock of frustration. And
that's when you start the clock of conditional faith which leads to frustration which leads to anger and
ultimately uh leaving. You have a you in the paper you you
reference someone with gather that compares Gather the organization to the early days of the church. Yes. Right.
Starting off early on. Right. And and quote he says or or Dalton says we're
going to create a Zion that includes everybody. Okay. This is such a fascinating deal because yeah, you know,
again, it goes back to the idea of inclusion, which is
a nuanced doctrine within the church. Because when we talk about inclusion in the church, if you're looking at the
scriptures and you're looking at doctrinally, what you're saying is the
inclusion is that God, God's love, God's invitation is for everyone.
But that doesn't take away our agency. That
doesn't take away the consequences of our agency. And so this whole idea of inclusion becomes this feel-good
comforter blanket that we put on ourselves to say, well, regardless of
what I do, and this isn't just the LGBTQ stuff here, right? This is everything. It's it's regardless of what I do, I'm
loved and I will be included. in you know Zion in building Zion which
are however of one heart and one mind. So if you have different hearts and
different minds but you all want to be included there's a problem there that is
not Zion right so we we know for example the the way
that Jesus talks about is narrow right the gate is narrow it's straight it's
narrow there is it is not inclusive in that it broadens itself all the way out
for everybody regardless of decisions and the the the exercise of agency for
everyone. So, isn't this a a direct challenge when they use the term
inclusive? Isn't that a direct challenge to doctrine? And even further, yes. And
even further, what you mention uh and it's Claire Dalton. I I I I mean respectful. I hope I'm saying the
person's name correctly. It's it's Claire Dalton uh talking specifically when she's when she teaches youth. I
can't remember if she's a seminary teacher or a se or a a seminary teacher
or or Sunday school uh teacher, but she's been if if I remember right, I
don't want to misrepresent teaching youth to pray about these things, that kind of a thing. And so
that creates this element of you can receive revelation. You can re and we
we're supposed to receive revelation for our lives, right? But you can receive revelation of what this particular thing
is supposed to be and what it's supposed to do. And as part of that effort, as part of that effort, if if if you see,
and I think I discuss it later in the article, there's now GFY, like FSY,
gather for youth, a summer camp that focuses on particular elements of church
doctrine and associated and connected uh to LGBTQ activism. So there you have
preparation for the next generation of of
uh activists type of a thing. And so and I'm glad Greg Greg I'm glad that you
mentioned kind of a thing there's this element of of see receiving different revelations from different sides. All
right. And so it's Ben Schlotti that I I cite in here and he had a a big post
that says I'm I'm up to date. uh which is a kind of kind of a clever play on words and up to date about my life. But
then he describes that he's receiving revelation to date men. And so you have Ben Shelotti performing gay marriages
and receiving revelation uh that he's supposed to date men
uh all the while being a key speaker at at I sometimes lo and congregations. And
so what we're seeing here is a very very key principle of that's in the Book of Mormon. We
often wonder why are these particular things in the Book of Mormon? Why are these war chapters? Why was this
description in here? Uh when I was a kid growing up in the 90s, I remember thinking that, you know, this is great.
Why is there so much attention to this? And there's one particular phrase, I'm going to misquote it here, but you'll
know what I'm talking about. that said there began to be a warm contention in
in the church kind of a thing. This isn't church leadership. This isn't Salt
Lake City. This isn't church headquarters. This is happening within congregations particularly. It's
happening uh between in in social media between church members. There's this ongoing and growing contention
kind of a thing. And so we're entering this state where
Gather or maybe groups like Gather, I don't even know if there's groups like Gather, but at least they're your favorite influencer, your your favorite
YouTuber that you follow, establishing these new personal expectations,
your own personal angst that you that you should put front and center of your testimony. And front and center, my
testimony is, yeah, I believe in these basic things, but I'm frustrated about this and this and this and this kind of a thing. that warm contention starts to
operate in hearts and starts to operate in frustration discourse. So, one thing I hope that I'm not doing is uh maybe
you want to edit this out is uh stirring the pot with activists uh uh because I
share the concern about what the LGBT LGBTQ community faces. It's a it's a
tough life. It's a tough life to to choose the covenant path. Nonetheless,
those that are leading those that are that are leading them and being the voice for that
that is so differentiated and that's not the covenant path that that Russell and Nielsson uh is emphasizing. It's it's
it's almost a perfect opposite. All right, Brent, you you cite organizational theory and and you show
how shadow systems and subcultures often precede full breakaways as you
discussed. What other signs should we we be looking for where we see a line might
c be crossed with these organizations? Um boy um that's a that's actually a
tough question. Other signs other than those uh particular things um I I don't
want to start making something up and so I I I'm I'm a rhetoric by trade and so I
study rhetoric. I study organizations as well but those are connected. uh the follow the rhetoric of what's uh
happening uh uh see what's happening there. It's really I don't I sound
critical. I don't want to be critical of people. It's really really easy to say I I I believe
and uh spend 30 seconds in your YouTube video talking about that you believe.
than spending the next 20 minutes talking about your frustrations. And so
there there's persuasion is so powerful. Persuasion is so powerful. So I guess
one thing to note there is uh is for for your listeners um and and I would say
for those that that choose kind of this covenant path element um be aware of euphemisms.
uh be aware of of invitations to to look at things through a specific lens. And
then where there's I think we could say a bait and switch and that bait and switch is is effectual and is useful for
um uh activists and so be aware of those particular things. There's one part of
the study that I go into that and one of the one of the key gather addresses a
speaker I think they said spend four minutes talking about a biblical narrative then spend I think it was the
next 11 minutes talking about those particular things understand rhetoric
understand rhetoric and it's it's very very uh tricky and very very powerful
and it's easy to to to pick up a sound bite or a brief description and say,
"This is ex exactly um um what I what I want." And then you often don't realize
that something's not what you thought it was until you're in too deep and you've been stirred. Yeah, that's not very
deep. That's not helpful, but it's No, that is helpful. It's helpful. I And we don't want to assume too much, you know,
and it keeps it more real if we don't. Um what
why do you think that these types of movements these critical movements based
on these critical theories are so appealing to the elite right there there
is a certain strata of of what any organization or
any population that seems to lean toward these movements a lot. Why
why do you think that is? Can I ask you a quick question and not I just want clarification not continuing with you. What do you mean by elite by by the
elite getting do you mean just big organ? Um okay I I guess I would say the more privileged. Ah okay. Um and so so
the yeah why are these voices appealing and why are they having the impact and
the strength? Yeah because a lot of these individuals they may have nothing to do they may not have a family member or a close friend that are in the
circles of LGBTQ. Um, and yet they they they move toward
it. It's it's a, you know, it's it's, you know, I call it an untethered empathy that seems to be very appealing
to certain individuals and and and
wi-i without bringing truth with that empathy.
Yeah. And so there's a few things that we have to uh this is a fantastic
question. If I can take a note uh for for just a um a minute here work to to try to
expound this first is is we can never separate ourselves from mass culture uh
popular culture kind of a thing and the pride movement um or or any kind of
critical movement is now dominant. And so uh
a wise philosopher will say if if you want to see what's really happening look what's happening at a mass level and we
don't necessarily fight for hearts we fight for voice we fight for whatever is the mass distribution of beliefs
assumptions perspectives over the last 20 years that
uh flipped on itself and key to that was I think 10 years ago
Obama Obama's sweeping element across all states kind of thing. All right. And so
that that drastically changed everything. But pride is attractive.
Pride is um it's it's rainbowy. It's empowered. It's a way to say that you
love other people. It's a way to say that you are a a good person kind of a thing. And if you don't go march kind of
a thing and and you don't wear a pin or or or or a hat or or whatever it may be,
you're not you're not performing that compassion uh kind of a thing. And so that becomes important. The second thing
we is we have to see the the precursor to that which is uh critical theory. As
as you mentioned a critical theory isn't taught everywhere but it's it's enormous and it's powerful. The key person in the
change that we're seeing right now in uh all of these movements is Michelle Fuko
kind of a thing the the French philosopher and I think you've you've covered him uh many times but uh Fuko
was ex was very very extreme he got a lot of people uh to follow him kind of a thing but ultimately former Fuko was
arguing with uh the French government to allow uh
adult male and boy sexual relations that that wasn't necessarily a problematic
kind of a thing. So, we've had a Fuko effect. There's been other elements that
are connected uh to that as well. But I think we could say empowerment
philosophy has really driven this this integration of popular culture. So,
those are actually two different things. there's a philosophy that has just emerged kind of a thing of of
empowerment which has then driven a new popular culture uh that we have. The
third thing and I think this is the most important thing and what I've already been talking about is biological or
psychological impulse. That is everything. And so we have our five senses or or we we have our particular I
guess we could say things that biologically that we that we need. All right. Uh water um or we need like this
is getting way too this is getting silly. Water, food. Um, and this is why
I mentioned why it won't go away and why it's so powerful. The sex impulse is just as strong as those other things
that I those other two that I just described. And so to be human is to be a
sexual creature. Well, when that sexuality isn't geared towards what the proclamation on the family and uh
the president of the church is pursuing, that's a that's a new issue
for me. I have pop culture and I have philosophy. All right, these these these great things on the back of my mind
pursuing that. And so you you'll see the church continue to be so separated from
from mass rhetoric from from pop culture and and
it won't come back together. Uh the these two elements won't come back together. the church will be
increasingly uh isolated from these particular things. So one thing to note is the more
consumed we are by uh popular culture. I write a lot about pop culture till then
uh the more consumed we are by popular culture and popular culture performance
the more easily we're going to be integrated into these things and think that Russ M. Nelson and Don Hokes's
uh um teachings rhetoric is not for me. And so that's they don't always say that
directly. All right. Uh activists aren't going to go out and say that in in in
that kind of framework, but that's what they're getting asked. So
you conclude the essay by saying that you know we may be looking toward a a
formalized alternative church. Mhm. You're talking about how these things are not going to come back together
that there there is such a firm strong worldview
of these individuals that it is again it is a matter of well the church is going to change if the church stands firm and
I believe it will. It may get to the porch of the temple, but I don't think it's getting in. What what
what does that mean then at that point? I mean, are we are we looking at you think you you do you believe that
there is no possible reintegration of those organizations and that movement? Uh um or is there still just going to be
an internal defiance of the current doctrine that is
going to be I I I don't know how does that exist within the church at some point on once
this becomes so codified fulmented as an alternative view and and a hope in
something that is going to be different that is never going to happen where where do we go
I think that for the immediate future and and and uh years maybe decades ahead
we're going to see um the I I guess we could say the the shadow version
continue to exist and continue to grow. Um activity in the church will decline
among people that uh embrace that uh they they'll come less and less and less and then they'll leave and then they'll
resign which is which is already happening. It really depends on how frustrated they
get. And so what I mean by that it depends on individuals. And so if I can make a comparison, a couple of
comparisons here is uh maybe just one. Um Sam Young the the and and and we
talked about that right right before the show started. Sam Young's
had the personality to do this kind of a thing. He wanted these changes of how
youth are interviewed. Tried tried tried. Didn't get what he wanted. Okay. And so that's what Gather and and and
and other activists are doing right now. Try try try try and and his um patience
was was thin through that. And so you can look in what what Sam Young decided
to do is he moved into having a a bullhorn or a microphone outside of
Temple Square and he started washing. He took all his clothes off other than swimsuits and washed himself clean of of
of church procedures. Then he had all these people. He started washing uh
their feet and he had all of these signatures type of a thing. And so it depends on the emergence of a leader and
a personality that will say I'm going to do this now. I don't know if that
happens in 2026. I don't know if that happens in 2076.
uh but nonetheless it it it takes a very particular uh personality to do that and here's
what's significant why I think it will be a long period of time even though I think there are strains of personalities
that do that already gathers holding GFY type of events and there's a younger
generation being taught right now to um uh to to prepare to to to be I guess uh
uh advocates for for gather and its purpose and as they grow up and as they
become what they become. All right, the new Richard Osers and the new Ben
Shelottis type of a thing. They'll have an element of receiving personal
revelation of its time. It's time for us to break off type of a thing. So,
personality means everything. But for now, the most important and significant thing is to play nice, speak up in
Sunday school, uh do shout outs from the pulpit when you bear your testimony. Uh
it Trojan horses and uh taking over internally in the city is so much more
attractive and uh believed. The other thing that they could that is at their
disposal is perhaps the belief that uh we'll just
wait for a president of the church that isn't has a strong personality of these things. That won't ever happen.
You're never going to have a a president of the church that that isn't that fixated. And so with that being said,
that's that conditional faith. That's that uh angx. That's that same believing
that doctrine is up for grabs that we have all of these members and we have all these pi payers or whatever it may
be. Um we're expecting something uh from you up there and that's why if I can
mention again those August 244 policy clarifications it was uh boy talk
about a a strong response. You talk about the youth that are it's
almost like there is a this shadow faith we talk about right where you you have these gatherings where like a general
conference you have uh the the influencers and and and and how they
communicate with with their followers this group this movement you've got youth events
uh like uh what is it called now? FSY. Yeah. GFY. Um, so you've got the sh The
problem with that is it's not just a matter of
a messaging of support and love for those individuals. To me, it's a message of schism,
right? It it's it's saying, "Oh, okay. If I'm teaching hope in change to this
group of youth, when these discussions come up, a family proclamation in Sunday school and young
men's and priesthood, then then where does that conversation go? Because you've already been told in one sense
and internalized as a youth that this hope and change is where things are going to go. And that
energy, that looking forward, you know, that the the
triad of faith, hope, and charity is is a real thing. It is what it's what
Mormon and Moroni ended up teaching about in the Book of Mormon after everything. Their civilizations are
falling apart. This idea of hope is something that you are set on because
of your faith in Jesus Christ, right? It's it's it's sequential. It's faith in Jesus Christ. Then it's a hope in a
future and a state of being and a hope for those around you. And then it's charity and how you're going to
implement that. And if that hope is directed at this change,
we're going to go after this change, then then it's going to remove the hope
away from the actual doctrines of of the church. So this schism grows
in in what hope really is meaning and where your heart is going. Um I'm not
saying for example that that those that are involved with Gather or other organizations that that they don't have
a hope in Christ. I'm just saying you may be putting a hope and change above everything. Then that's that's what it
is. It's it's uh it's this much that aligns with Russell M. Nelson and it's this much which which aligns with right
with with I guess we could say gathers elements. Yeah. So you've got
essentially I mean in a in a certain sense when you when you have a values hierarchy
that at the highest levels of that those values they are tweaked or turned yeah
on its head. It it's fine if it's at the lower level you know disagreements that's fine. But when you go up to the
highest level of family and the doctrine of Christ and and and you tweak that and you turn
it so that one is dropped down below the other, your world view changes, your
practice changes, your hope changes, your faith changes, it all changes. And you've got these two groups that are
having this change in their values hierarchy at the top levels trying to work together
and in in a in using cor the department of correlations manuals and interpreting
them completely differently. That that seems very difficult to me. Yeah. Yeah.
Um and and that's why I I make the case that that they can never uh ever be
reconciled when you have when you have a discourse from such as Elder Corbett's
uh uh talk against activism and Holland's uh and then you have the the
policy clarifications. It couldn't be more contrasted. And it's
it's really e they're really really good. I mean that's the power of rhetoric. That's the power of persuasion. They're really good at
saying this is this is right this aligns so well aligns so closely. Then you have uh Don H. Oaks in April 2024 saying
anyone who speaks out against the family proclamation does not understand the doctrine of the gospel kind of a thing.
And so what they do is is they they criticize but in this very very subtle way type of a thing. But if I can add
something you mentioned there the the gather. I've never been to gather um and and and so I need to put that out there.
But nonetheless, I watch and see uh their the addresses at least that they put on YouTube kind of a thing. They're
not talks. They're they're they're they have speakers, but they're very much
rallies. They they they seem like rallies kind of a thing. And there's almost like an activist rally to some
degree. And we could talk about group euphoria with that kind of a thing of the of I I think we'd say the goosebumps
and the emotion and the power that you feel at any kind of rally. I mean uh
that's what politicians have always been able to do. I feel so good. I feel so inspired. I feel so empowered by this
kind of a thing. That becomes my faith. That becomes what what's significant.
And I am the manifestation. I'm the expression of love. look at my rainbow
shirt uh kind of a thing. And it sounds like I'm being critical of them. That's the discourse and that's the adoption
kind of a thing. And so my leader is gather my leader is my influence. My
leader is this podcast of of of bringing people in who have I guess we could say
left their spouse, ended their temple marriage. And uh what a beautiful thing
that is. Do you understand how different that is compared to what Russell M.
Nelson is teaching? Yeah. Well, Brian, appreciate your time. This is a fascinating topic. It's something that I
think everybody experiences to one degree or another. Oh, wait. At least most people in the US, for example, are
going through this. It's it's you have these discussions at the dinner table. You have family members that are uh have
have a different sexual orientation. You have so much of this is becoming more and more a part of the church and being
able to walk the edge of the sword on this so that there's a clear understanding that everybody is loved
and should be loved. They're certainly loved by God should be loved by every individual. Um but there are certain
doctrines and whether we like it or not those are truths that we cannot change
and that is where that is where that is the lightning rod
right that is where what we're dealing with this time the paper is in the journal of religion and society uh 2025
with uh I believe that's affiliated with Kraton University is that right yes it is okay with Kraton University. We'll
put the link in the description box so you guys can look at the full thing. Very meaty, lot of references in there
and a great job by by Brent. So Brent, appreciate you coming on. Means the world. Thanks so much, Greg.