Like the rest of Western society, Meagan Kohler highlights how many see the role of women in the Church through a prism of power (Critical Theory). But the numbers supporting these views may be smaller than you think.
On a recent Relief Society broadcast, Sister J. Annette Dennis stated, "The adversary wants us to focus our attention on what we haven't been given and blind us to all that we have been given." She also said, "There is no other religious organization in the world that I know of that has so boldly given power and authority to women." Needless to say, this caused quite a stir among those who, as stated above, see the Church through a prism of power and a feminist worldview.
before we get started on this interview with Megan Kohler on feminism power and the role of women in the church I want
to remind you of the Isaiah institute's virtual conference this Saturday March
30th A Day of Reckoning I've talked a lot about Isaiah I've talked a lot about the Book of Mormon and how it's written
around the focus of Isaiah this virtual conference will help you learn and understand the literary tools to get
context from Isaiah and perhaps see what Nephi saw in Isaiah what do sea and
River mean in the book of Isaiah are there secret combinations mentioned in
the book of Isaiah go to Book of Mormon Isaiah SLC conference Book of Mormon
Isaiah SLC conference and sign up for an education on the book of Isaiah here we
go all right welcome to Cwic show my name is Greg Matsen and I am your host in
this episode we brought on Megan ker frequent contributor to Deseret News and
a Public Square magazine Megan welcome to the show thank you so much for having me you
have written an article recently on in Deseret News called most Latter-Day Saint women are happy with their
religion um are latterday St women content with their religion and with
their position and roles in the church well
um yes so that's the the Crux of my argument um and I think that this the
reason why there's been so much response to this article is because most of the
information that people have about how women feel in the church comes
from online voices um but that's really
a a small part of of you know the church's female demographic and so I'm
hoping to sort of provide another perspective in my article now you're gonna pull from a a survey I'll get to
here in just a bit but the survey was actually pretty overwhelming that for example uh women in the church did not
want anything to do with female ordination wasn't that right well I don't know um if it said that if you're
if you're referencing the be Robert survey yes um it basically only
asked it kind of stated like you know women should be um ordained to the
priesthood or agree or disagree and so that that one and five number um is the
number who indicated any amount of agreement with the idea that women
should be ordained and that um to be clear is men and women that one and five
number is men and women it's men and women but the women it seemed to me if I unless I read it wrong the women seem to
actually be at a higher clip than the men in in not agreeing with female
ordination um so I think that that comes from uh a survey that was done
earlier um and I don't know very much about that survey but and that one wasn't done by members of the church if
I recall correctly um and according to that survey I think that was the Pew the Pew
survey yeah yeah according to that survey there more women were against
female ordination than men were so yeah that kind of goes to the way you open up
your article which is if you try to understand the church through the prism of power it will never make sense to you
and I think that really is the Crux of it you know we talk a lot about critical theory for example on on this podcast
and this world view that we're moving into in society is exactly what you're
discussing here when you're talking about the power dynamics and so if I'm looking through a prism of power then as
you state I'm I'm always looking at well what am I lacking not what do I have or
yes am I making a comparison to men and their roles even if they are not even
roles of power necessarily yes I think that's right I think that that it invites comparison
and and there's the sense in which if somebody else has something then that means that I don't um that's what it
means I think to understand things through uh through the lens of power
dynamics and so um yeah I think that lens just filters out a lot
of things about life and about the church and so I think it's not a very helpful way of trying to understand the
church's structure well I think it's divisive as well when you're just looking at pure power I mean there's another I mean the adversary Works
through through that sense right it's I want power and it's like well what is power you make a great Point um later on
about what the greatest for example of all of us is the greatest of all of us is the least Among Us right the greatest
Among Us is the least Among Us which really means it's the one who in my terminology condescends below all it's
the one who serves those around them I mean Christ is the greatest among us but
he's the least Among Us in terms of he's the servant to all right he took on the
pain for all of us so it's just the exact opposite of saying what is the
power Dynamic that exists in the church yes um you know I think Christianity
more generally is about sort of inverting the normal Power dynamic as as
human beings understand it and um I think that we
see that that has to be our starting place for trying to understand the way that power works in the
church yeah I I agree with that now recently in I'm trying to remember what it was was it the uh General Relief
Society not General Relief Society but there was a Relief Society what was it was a uh there was a release hday
broadcast the broadcast right and sister Dennis
uh was talking about this whole issue of of women's equality empowerment and
happiness Etc and she say she says which something that was also a controversial
statement I don't know how it is but she says there is no other religious organization in the world that I know of
that has so broadly given power and authority to women now as a
man and yes I'm speaking as a man but I think that's true yeah you know I I
don't know any other religious organization where my wife would have
run organizations would have spoken from the pulpit would have um been able to
serve in positions uh with with great responsibility
yes and um I think that you're sort of hitting on something that made this
important for me to write which is that sometimes focusing too much on the different ways
in which men and women serve in the church can sort of keep us from really
looking at and exploring what we have been given and wielding that influence
which is it's really important that we do that as women so let me go back to the survey
here a little bit why do you think I mean because these loud voices are out there um you
know ordain women it went on about 10 12 years ago and a lot of loud voices about
how women need to be ordained to the priesthood and um why do you think that
so many women do not want female ordination so um that's a great question
and I have done some asking around um and I think that there are
multiple reasons um I think well I think that the first and most important for me
is that women who are uh really bound up in service in the church um are very
hesitant to assign sexist reasons to the church's
organization so they they trust the prophet they trust the uh Divinity of
the institutional Church they see it as God's Kingdom on the Earth and so if there are differences then I think that
they are very hesitant to say well you know this must be because of sexist
Traditions you know I think that they're just open to the fact that there must be other explanations so I think that's a
big one I also think um that women believe
in the church that that women are different from men
and so it would make sense that women have different roles um
and they I don't in in my own case um I
see the priesthood as being very formative for men and so I'm really hesitant to want
to give those formative roles to women because I don't think that women need
them as much as men do but I think a really big reason too is honestly that there are huge
administrative burdens associated with um callings in related to priesthood
offices um and I think for some women they feel
that taking on those additional administrative duties would actually hinder their ability to engage more
directly in ministerial type of work so in you know rendering direct service to
people um that's just as I've talked to himen those are some of that's some of the
feedback that I've gotten now you've had you had a couple of comments here about gen z um and and
if this was an intergenerational issue but the survey seems to say it is not an
intergenerational issue and that actually women that are in that generation agree also that women should
not have uh fem Orin ordination is that right did I get that right um I I think
so so I um I don't yeah I'm not exactly sure maybe it's me reading into the
surveys because I did go to the surve and read into them no the so yeah so that's kind of um one of the things that
they found that was sort of surprising because you know I think that's the assumption is that you know the rising
generation is going to revolt and it's going to you know turn the churches work
on its head and um yeah it it it doesn't seem like there are some generational
differences but not what you would expect yeah because generally another
Pew survey sat found that a majority of us adults particularly women under age
30 believe that being a man helps you get ahead in life and that being a woman
holds you back that's obviously a again a power Dynamic it's a victim oppressor
type of a a situation but apparently Latter-day Saint women in that
demographic do not at least apply it to
church in their own R anyway yeah I mean I I uh on on that
particular question I'm I'm not exactly sure because um it's hard for me to know what what
the reasons are for why women because when you're talking about the the Pew survey that that ties in very strongly
with um partisan loyalties so political and I don't know if that
carries over into what women in in the church
feel um so you use a term that I use a lot in
love and I wish more people would use this I think it's the right term you use
the term liberationist and liberationist to me and what I use with that is
I talk a lot about the the dichotomy of Liberty versus Liberation right and so what do you mean
by liberationist oh that's a good question um that gets kind of into some of the
the this is a little bit more philosophical I've mentioned in the article uh the reactionary feminist
movement I don't know how familiar you are with that um
but the part of this reactionary feminism
is you know taking another look at the concept of Rights and the way that we sort of
understand rights at least in our common cultural Parliament is um as radical
autonomy right um and a more classical understanding of Rights is being bound
up in the attainment of Virtues and being associated with duties
really sees rights as not freeing us from one another and um from things like
our our bodies and our relationships it's um freedom to
pursue those things to you know to participate more fully in
our relationships and um in our uh attainment of of good so it it's
direct it it's liberty has a purpose right it's it's not an end in itself
it's directed towards some other good that is considered more ultimate than
Liberty itself yeah so you're using the term here and then you bring
up uh you know feminism basically or at least traditional feminism especially
probably Third Way feminism but it's you've got you know you're liberating yourself women are liberating themselves
from what is perceived again as a power Dynamic from men
but as they do this and I'm getting outside of the church here but as they do this they're
actually just following the exact same standard that men have put in place to begin with in in other words they're
actually saying well we are upset about the dynamic that
men have versus what women have in power but we want to be more like them and so
we're going to become more like men and that seems to be kind of the liberationist approach to it's almost
like Megan like they're saying I'm going to liberate myself from
Womanhood yes yes I think that's ex that's the exact critique that
reactionary feminism makes is that traditional feminism has sort of tried to just like you said free women from
being women and um it hasn't worked because it's not possible because our
embodiment as women is a fact of reality our physical
biological and emotional differences are um they're incontestable they they
exert um I don't want to say control but they exert influence over our decisions
irrespective of of you know the steps that we take to sort of um to
to separate ourselves from those realities you reference here Lis Perry
who I follow a lot and I've read her books and and then you've got Mary Harrington here that you're quoting from and she says that she's defining
reactionary feminism as feminism that seeks to honor women by accepting as
given the things that make us human our bodies and our relationships as you said
contrasting this with uh those who sometimes portray uniquely female
physical and emotional characteristics as inconvenient impediments to full
Equity this how did we get here to this point I don't understand the reasoning
behind I mean it's this way in every way I mean all the our differences of sexual orientation of of race of gender it's
it's all part of the same thing to me but liberating yourself again from
Womanhood it it just to me it just kind of removes the whole purpose of being
feminine and being a woman in the first place yeah yeah and
um uh Erica boki and U Mary Harrington kind of go into some of the they they
sort of Trace this understanding of of women
through first and second wave feminism and um there are a lot of things that I
think have gone into this but I think the big one is the sexual Revolution and that's I think one of the things that
all of these you know feminists that I'm that I'm referencing here are kind of
United on is uh you know wanting to disentangle um the cause of Womanhood
from the sexual Revolution which is anchored in marriage
really I mean as I see it right it's anchored in marriage it's like you said you bring up here that women bear a
disproportionate amount of the burdens associated with uncommitted sex because you've got the baby you've got the you
know who's providing where is the support um yes Etc so I mean women are
usually The Gatekeepers right with this even in a more promiscuous Society
the logic and the you know the natural
process is that women are going to Bear the larger burden not only
physically and with responsibility but even emotionally I would say yes um in
fact you know all the all the Studies have shown that yes and and so it's like
okay if I'm going to liberate myself from being a woman I'm going to be more like a man who's more promiscuous and has numerous different partners and it
it doesn't biologically when you get down to it biologically it just doesn't
it can't work the same way yeah and I think that that's one of the things that these thinkers are
pointing to is they're you know drawing on examples from like hookup culture and
how I mean it's that that's devastating for both sexes but particularly for women who are much more likely to be to
become emotionally attached um when a relationship gets physical uh and so you
know when we say that traditional feminism seems to be you know serving male interests
that's that's really not even quite correct it's it's that it's serving the worst men's interests you know it's it's
not good for anybody they're they're picking the worst part of men to follow yeah yes yeah makes sense what
are there are there any solutions to this within the church I mean again the the number I think is not that large of
those that look through this prism of power yeah uh you know within the church
I mean I think it's much larger outside of the church but um what they're the loudest voices and
they seem to be they seem to you know leverage a lot of
influence because of social media and because of the internet um what should
we be doing to guard ourselves against this I guess how do you how do we how do we stay away
from a prism of power so you know I think the problem that
we're really talking about is the problem of influencing um
because these uh you know when we're talking about uh
women who feel discontented who feel like the church is a fundamentally
sexist institution um it's it it's really easy to feel like that's how a lot of women
feel because when you create an online community that has none of this the
constraints that our physical ones do suddenly you have every person who feels
discontented all standing in the same room talking to each other so it's it's
kind of that Echo chamber mentality right so you get in there and and you're and everybody's kind of airing these
Grievances and you get the sense that wow everybody feels this way I must be right um so I think the first thing is
to kind of understand like exercise some wisdom about the way that the online
World works and honestly just having an awareness of those lenses through which
we're making sense of what we're looking at um I think that's a really big step
because for me I'm trying really hard to make sure that when I'm looking at
anything but especially the church that I'm like putting on my Gospel of Jesus
Christ lens that I'm looking at it through a lens that I am reinforcing
through my daily devotional practices through Temple attendance through listening to what the prophets say and
then so that's going to fect the way that I interpret things the way I interpret the church and its structure
and so I think if people are just aware of the fact that sometimes you're getting information online you know
influencers have a particular worldview sometimes they don't necessarily realize
it but everything they're feeding you is going to come through that worldview and it's going to start changing the way
that you see things do you sense at all
that a message of of the importance of motherhood
is heading down a slippery slope at all or are we okay
there in other words what I mean by that is I mean he talking about Solutions and and not looking through you know being
aware of these power dynamics but seems to me that another one is is if we lose
the importance of motherhood in our message as a
church right in our culture
um that seems to me that that would create a void for women in the church
and it does seem to me like we're kind of I don't know seems to me like we're missing that a little bit do you mean
like in the church or do you mean like in our wider culture I I mean both right I think it's both I think it's
especially outside of the church obviously more outside of the church but even within the church I think it's I I
don't know I I there's some be affected by our society we can't help but be affected by
culture more broadly yes and there I don't think there is any role more
important than being a mother in my own eyes I just don't think that there's anything more beautiful more uh
Christlike more uh important than what a mother does and
and our society as a whole is has just put this down so much yeah and and and
lowered the role and the importance of women in place of Liberation ISM so to
speak yeah I you know I agree I I also feel like mothering is the most
important thing that I will do in this life and um I I think that too
um I I wish that we
I guess gave more that we celebrated a little bit more the process of bringing
life into the world I think that that is such a huge hugely important part of
well life but especially from an eternal perspective especially you know in the church where we sort of understand that
we existed before and have to like be brought into this world and so it's just a really awesome power that women have
this power of of clothing Spirits you know in Flesh and Blood that's
uh that's a tremendously powerful thing that women
do yeah um
are are are men given larger more powerful roles in
the priesthood um is why what am I asking here are they
uh are they in positions of power over women that's what I'm asking are they are are men in positions of power over
women in the church and is that
a is that uh um balanced at all from the from from
the side of women um
so I guess I don't normally think of it in terms of do men have positions of power over women I would say that they
occupy positions of responsibility over men and women um
when they when they serve in particular roles um and I I think that that is
again um that that plays I I don't want to say
that I understand everything that the priesthood is doing in the church or men acting you know in priesthood offices I
don't um but I do see that one of the things that it does um is it requires
men to take responsibility for the well-being of others in ways that require them to
practice compassion um and it makes them that their
priesthood ordination makes them uh it kind of creates like a more
formal line of accountability
so I I I mean I I don't know how I guess I don't know
how to respond to like is there something um similar that women have
because I I guess I don't see it as being about power and so I I don't I
don't know how I would you know say yeah not because power over this the church that is the case I just I know that
that's how it's viewed yeah so often you know there's 15 men that run the church
and they have all the power and they make all the decisions so to speak right
um of course they're exhausted all day long because all they do is work and serve
others um but that's the way it's viewed right it's that's the way it's viewed you have something I don't have and um
it's a position of power and and therefore why are you not sharing this
with everyone else well and I I do think that um I I don't want to say that you
know men who serve in you know priesthood offices that that
they don't um have added influence because of that um you know so long as
as they're doing it correctly you know so so long as they're operating in ways
that God um approves of because there is a potential of course to
abuse um one's station because of that I maybe station is not quite the right
word but to take advantage of that stewardship and so
um yeah I don't want to say that there there isn't um something powerful about
what they're doing but uh I guess one thing that I would say is
like if there are people who see I mean technically I think that
theologically I don't see any reason why women couldn't be ordained someday it could happen I'm not really counting on
it but it could happen but if there are women who
believe that what the priesthood is doing is giving men power and authority over other people
then like to me that's like the last person that I would want to put in that
position right because they they understand this as something that they use to control other people or to exert
influence over other people in in inappropriate ways
dominance you know status prominence if if that's your
understanding of what of what it means to to serve in priesthood offices then
you know I just I feel like that's very disqualifying and that's certainly not
the way it's described in scripture right I mean scripture is going to be very specific on this being
longsuffering and and Etc you know it's the doctrine of Christ it's it's condescension and it's its service and
and uh yes you know yes righteous persuasion Etc is is what it's supposed
to be there's always a bad apple here and there there's no question yeah we've
all seen that but some people pushed back on me on that they were like well you know what about all the men that
abuse their power or that that you know are basically you know using it to exert
uh power over other people and it's like well I don't support that you know no no
but I guess I would ask again I mean would it be any different with women I I don't know that there would be it would
be any different with women if that would be if the numbers would be better or not I have no idea no that seems like
a an issue for Humanity yes as a whole so Megan my final question here is are
we going to be able to push off from society as it continues to go down the
path of looking through a prism of power that is going to do nothing but divide
us between men and women are we going to be able to have a message and again I you know I we can't dictate what
Brethren do or what they say or or anything else and I support what they do but as a culture are are are
we in a position to be able to not absorb uh all of this
ideology yeah I'm you know I listening to the Relief Society
broadcast I came away from that feeling so optimistic and so inspired because I
do feel like these women are articulating a positive and power Vision
powerful vision of Womanhood and I think that if we take that seriously you know I I see so many
people dismissing these women you know as treating them like they're shills for the patriarchy or something and they're
not listening they're not listening to what these women are really saying and
the vision that they're putting before us and if they to the extent that we do yes I think we will be able to transcend
all of the toxic cultural influences that would separate us from God and his
power great well I appreciate you coming on I'd like to bring you on another time as well um thanks for being here thanks
for having [Music]
me oh
