Cwic Show- Criminal Justice, Opioids, Addiction

Robert Gruler is a criminal defense attorney with a remarkable story. He gives us the low-down on the criminal justice system and the flaws most of us never hear about. Robert candidly talks about losing his brother to the opioid crisis that is affecting almost everyone in the US, addiction, drugs and setting up a non-profit for other grieving families. Robert runs a series that checks on the criminal justice system called, 'Watching the Watchers'- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3Iiaitp6GYn-HGEKBlZwStIoZuLU5AE1 

Find Rob's Links here- http://www.robgruler.com 

 

Podcast Links:

Apple Podcasts/iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cwic-show/id1477083738

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6C1YqK6oFzzADScEg3CrwY

 

 

Cwic Show

 

yeah the opioids I don't have to tell

you we all know it's a huge problem we

see it in the news every single day

people are dropping dead from

them it was something that really

impacted my family pretty dramatically

so I'm the old is that something that

you did you kind of know something was

going on at the time or is it was it

pretty well hidden from you guys or not

for oh yeah we did not know for a long

time that this was something that was

happening in my family you know my

younger brother got caught up in the

whole thing and we kind of had suspected

that he had a problem but it's something

that you know people who get involved in

it they're pretty good at hiding it they

don't you know they don't tell you about

it

they don't come to you and say hey I've

got a problem I need help so what

started him on it

so he broke his wrist I think it was

originally the big problem was

biking so we were both as young boys we

would bike we would get bikes and do

bmxing and he got into an accident and

broke or slightly fractured his wrist as

a young boy then we played you know he

got he was in a cast for that for a

long time

and then you know we played Pop Warner

football and he re-injured it he had a

number of different injuries he what

really really broke it badly was at some

point he had plates put in there plates

and screws he ended up breaking it very

badly he was working at discount tire

and they have those torque wrenches that

he used to just torque down yeah and he

and he torqued it and his wrist just

gave out and he had to go get multiple

surgeries for that okay and then how old

was he when that happened when that

happened he must have been 22 I would I

would imagine but it was an ongoing

thing and so every time he went to the

doctor they would give him pills did he

go to a you know one thing I've seen

that's kind of popped up in the last 20

years are these pain centers yeah did he

was he had something like that or was it

just his primary care physician so

he was seeing a number of different

specialists he saw multiple people he

was

getting prescribed I think something

like 500 pills a month from different

providers pain pills pain pills yeah

the oxycontin was really what

did it and so he yeah he would go to

different doctors around and get

different diagnoses and can you fix this

can you fix this problem okay if you

can't load me up with those pain pills

because he was in constant pain I mean

you can imagine your hand something you

use every day he was you know not a

college type of guy so he was out there

working at discount tire and working at

these different you know doing manual

things and so they would just load him

up and this was kind of before the you

know it's really kind of come to a head

how long ago was that so which part the

when he start when he well when he was a

discount tire so yeah that was that was

probably when he was probably 10 years

ago so yeah so I'd gone up but in

knowing you were coming in here I went

in and researched a little bit on some

of this and they give some kind of

benchmarks with the opioid crisis when

when things really started to happen so

that goes back to the 90s when they

really started to have a number of

deaths on prescription opioids yeah and

then you had about 2010 there was the

the heroin overdoses started to really

kick done also opioids right and then in

2013 so what six years ago the fentanyl

right the manufactured opioids yep

overdoses started to really kick up and

so he'd be right in that range there

where you know as the opioid deaths

increased from overdoses yeah he was

caught up right in that right in that

right in the meat of that so the other

thing that I had read was that the

pharmaceutical companies originally I

said that there's no problem with

addiction on this sure coming through

the first ten years yeah they just kept

fighting against any issue with the FDA

on addiction right with it with the

pain pills and that's obviously not the

case right definitely not the case yeah

he was fully addicted to them

and we went through a lot with him at

different rehab centers and multiple

different treatment programs and 12-step

programs and suboxone too you know which

is basically a weaning off type of drug

did everything and it just it just

didn't take didn't take so after four to

four to five years of that he was living

with me I mean I had to physically throw

him out of my house because he was using

drugs buying drugs selling drugs I'm a

criminal defense lawyer that's no good

not a good mix not a good mix if I am in

you know in a house like that so I had

the night basically to kick him out and

shortly thereafter you know we thought

that he was doing it he was doing well

III thought that this time it was

sticking maybe and then in 2016

got a call from my mom he hung

himself I mean he died you know in in

2016 you know it I had I had a an

undercover narcotics cop on a program

last week and he deals with a lot

of us sure and what he had said was you

know the problem people don't realize

with addiction is that it's not just a

matter of trying to get high but it's a

matter of your body screaming to reach

the same place you originally had been

right so you've gotten to a certain

point and your body screams to get

back there right and it's almost to have

to go through their withdrawals and do

to go through a process of changing that

is incredibly difficult for anybody

right and whether it's you're going

through a 12-step program or you are

trying to go cold turkey or whatever

your method is religion whatever it

might be when your cells in your body or

a hundred percent screaming out for that

yeah it's very very difficult to stay

away from it

100% yeah it's something so after Eric

died I was always a big drinker always

you know the drinking is a part of ASU

life sure just a big reason people go

there and since the party school it's

one of the

party schools you know I was a big

drinker there I started drinking young

started drinking hard and after Eric

died I did not cope with it very well

and my drinking became problematic when

I talk about when I talk to people about

drinking there's sort of three or four

stages you have you have drinking that's

fun then you have some fun with problems

and then you just have problems and my

drinking escalated to that point I

became something it became something

that I was using alcohol to cope with

the loss of my brother and the other

stressors in my life and so I'm part of

that community now I'm a 12-step guy

through and through I think that it has

fundamentally changed changed how I view

addiction and how I view substance abuse

in general so what's changed going

through that program how do you how do

you view it differently well I view it

as being much more a problem with our

thinking and how we cope with ourselves

in our lives

stress anxiety I think stress is yeah

stress anxiety those are both you know

key components to it when you go through

the 12 steps one of the things that you

do is identify where you have

resentments what are those things that

are sort of lingering in your life what

are those stones that you're carrying

around in your backpack you want to

identify those really do a solid

accounting and audit of all of those

resentments and then find skillsets to

release those because for me and I think

for my brother and for a lot of people I

think the reason people use substances

and become addicted is because they're

dealing with those thinking problems and

they just haven't addressed them so they

have a lot of guilt they have a lot of

shame about themselves or about their

lives and they use those substances to

kind of throw themselves into a

obliteration rather than go and deal

with it and so by going through the 12

steps and recognizing that you really

don't have any power over that substance

you're going to relinquish that give

that up you're gonna turn sort of your

care and

this idea of your will over to the care

of God and find a power that's greater

than yourself and rely on that God or

what they don't they say God but

it's a you know higher power of your

understanding is how they say it so it

can be all-inclusive but you're

sort of separating yourself from the

process a little bit you're recognizing

okay there's something else that I need

to turn this over to and help and use

that to carry you through it and that's

been something that I had not done you

know when I think a lot of people

are going through the addiction analysis

internally they're thinking this is at

least this is what I was thinking I'm

successful young I I've been able to

control almost everything in my life

why can't I control this why can't I get

this in order then you realize there are

just some things that are outside of

your control and you have to it that's

what the first step is you got to admit

you're powerless over this thing and

then you really dive in and do that that

thorough analysis and I meet with a

men's group and we meet every Tuesday

and we walked a number of different guys

through it and it's pretty amazing

what happens when they go through that

process and they sit down with a group

of other guys who were not asking of

anything asking them of anything or

asking them for anything just circling

up to help them through it and people

start to realize man I have this whole

backpack of these stones that I've been

carrying around mhm

let's dissect them and analyze them and

then empty the backpack lighten your

load how successful is that typically so

I mean if you look at the statistics

yeah the 12-step stuff I mean the

numbers are not good and if you look at

the Nugget the data on it right people

who go through a 12-step program they

don't traditionally at least in today's

era have a good success rate is it from

my understanding and I don't I don't you

know I'm not a status let's does that do

things because people just don't adhere

to it they don't go through yeah I do

think that's exactly actual the

structure is there for a solution yes

for a fix

yes but it's can you can you match that

can you can you align yourself with it

exactly right yeah we do what we do

what's called back to basics at our

group so we go back to the basics

basically the same format

they were doing back in the nineteen you

know early 1900s when they were

originally administering this this help

to people they were running him through

the program they were sticking to it now

I think it's been diluted in a lot of

ways and people just kind of pick the

pieces that they think work or that they

want to do and they'll just figure the

rest of it out and she doesn't work that

way

if you if you don't do it all the

authors of the big book they say

you're gonna go you will go back out and

use again mm-hmm you got to follow the

formula and that's what we really

emphasize so really I mean it you know

if I'm bringing in one side from say the

cop that I spoke with last week where

he's talking about your body going back

and wanting something else which is

interesting because you're

wanting something outside of yourself

yes right also you're looking for

something outside of yourself to help

you right right but that's a physical

addiction there and then you're saying

on the other hand though it's a matter

of it's almost sounds like you're

talking about a skill a thinking skill

yeah that you have to acquire to be able

to view things differently your

situation your conflict your

resentment a little bit differently yeah

I think that's true and I think

there's validity to both of those

concepts I mean I am not a science

denier or anything I mean I I do think

that when you have a pattern of

substance abuse or drinking or heroin

using or whatever it is I think there's

good evidence and good science to back

it up that says that you're rewiring

some of the pathways in your brain your

body is physically becoming addicted to

it and in order to satiate that

craving you have to go out and use so I

think the 12 steps is complementary to

that and even the big book doesn't say

anything about you know you can't go

through you know they're not denying

that that there's a science component to

it and I think what that your other

guest was saying about that about your

body screaming to go get this substance

is true I mean I know it you know I saw

with my brother I saw it with a lot of

the men's the other men that we work

with I see it you know these people are

screaming for it but the goal is

what are you gonna do with that data

okay great your body's screaming for it

you have a physical craving for it

so what are you gonna do about it

currently to my knowledge there's

there's no medical solution for that

they do have things like naltrexone they

have these implant pills that you can

take which are supposed to help with the

craving or eliminate the effect of you

know some opioids and those things and

great all for it but still what are you

supposed to do it comes down to how are

you adjusting your thinking and how do

you fortify yourself so that when you

have these moments in your life that pop

up and you say I need to go solve my

anxiety my depression my girlfriend

broke up with me I'm depressed about it

what do you do how do you turn to

something else rather than go and pick

up a bottle or shoot yourself up with a

needle mm-hmm and that's what the 12

steps does it gives you some framework

to fortify yourself and then rely on

your community find a good community get

plugged in and then the real key to the

whole thing in my opinion is the 12-step

you have to go out and help the next guy

you have to fortify yourself you have to

always take a middle position you have a

guy below you who you're sponsoring

that's somebody that you're helping and

then you have a senior position somebody

who's above you that's your sponsor

that's the person that you are relying

to so your fortified in the middle

that's interesting because in my other

podcast one of the principles that I go

over is I talk about a fluid hierarchy

yeah and how important that is and so

there actually is a hierarchy than in

the 12-step program that is set up where

you're looking up and you're looking

down at the same time yeah that's that

right that's really interesting so you

know I had gone in and looked I just

wanted to get some of these statistics

out there for people that you know we

got about 150 people dying from opioid

overdose everyday yeah in the country

from 99 1999 to 2017 there's been an

overdose six times the amount of

overdose deaths per year 85,000 people

will try heroin that for the first time

this year about a million people will

use heroin this year yep two million

people will misuse prescription opioids

for the first time this

and twelve million people will use total

will misuse prescription opioids this

year which is I mean that's pushing four

percent of the country yeah yeah that's

insane I mean that's the number I

mean we've got a pretty little number

right now but that's the unemployment

rate right yeah the number of people

that are misusing right opioids right

it's catastrophic it's catastrophic yeah

yeah and it's not just you know it's not

it doesn't just impact one person if one

person dies or commits suicide

forever I mean it's devastating entire

communities and it doesn't discriminate

you know this is not something that is

unemployed people with no job who have

no fans friends and family this is

getting everybody it's getting people

who are young it's getting people who

are old it's getting you know people who

are well-off because of the

nature of the drug it's just immediately

you know people get addicted to it very

quickly so it affects others obviously

it's affected you yeah how do you deal

with that how do you work with that it's

in part by being of service to other

people so my family and I my mom is one

of the most amazing people that I've

ever met is she after this happened she

was very difficult as any mom would when

they lose their son but she actually

found him you know she found him he hung

himself she walked in found him was

there you know so her life was in

complete disarray for a long time sure

he called me I was there ten minutes

later we sat there together and our

lives changed that day she went through

her grief process and then decided that

she was not going to let another family

go through it go through what we went

through if she could help it so she

founded Eric's house which is an

organization it's at Eric's house org

it's an organization to help people

through this it's something that has

gotten a lot of traction but basically

the premise of that is to help people

who've lost somebody to suicide overdose

or tragic death and when that happens to

somebody what we found was we hadn't we

had no idea what to do we had

resources we had no community to get

plugged into you're an alcoholic you go

to AAA if you're you know a sex person

you go to sex and you know sexoholic

Anonymous or whatever it is there's a

lot of support for it but suicide

overdose anything that's drug

related is really still there's a bad

stigma around it and there's not a lot

of places to get plugged into not a lot

of communities where you can go and find

support there so that's the mission of

Eric's house it's to help people who

have gone through a loss like that and

it's extremely therapeutic to turn

around and help somebody else because

it's the only it's the only positive

thing that you could pull out of a

situation like that mm-hmm I mean

otherwise you just sit in grief but

there's always going to be somebody else

out there who's drowning in the water

because they just suffered something

like that so our mission is to go and

help drag them ashore and say look this

is what we can it's a 12-step model it's

you know it's how do you help so what do

you what is Eric's house what does it do

how does it help people yeah so it's it

is a community of people who are

basically dedicated to that mission when

people we have an actual house it's over

in Paradise Valley it's at right off of

invar Gordon and Doubletree essentially

in that area somebody donated a house

which is incredible it's a

million-dollar property that they just

donated and they said this is going to

be the home base so when this happens to

somebody else when somebody loses

somebody to one of those reasons they

can go get plugged in we have a triage

unit essentially it's kind of what we

call it so immediately after somebody

loses somebody they can get connected

with a host of different providers from

Eric's house we've got a ton of

different modalities different people

with different modalities who will come

to the scene I mean literally show up

there and help you through that process

help you through the first 24 hours 48

hours tell you what to do make sure that

you're okay

and counsel you as you start making

preparations for your loved one but then

after that you know what we're finding

is that most people are sort of in

a robotic state after that happens they

they just kind of put themselves on

autopilot

and get stuff done they set up the

funeral arrangements they you know they

wind up Affairs because normally this

stuff happens extremely unexpectedly but

after that they get hit by train they

the actual reality sits in starts

settling in and they need they need help

through that so we have a men's group

that meets every other week we're

setting up a siblings group setting up a

parent's group because different

relationships grieve differently and the

biggest problem is that people isolate

themselves they just they kind of do

that turtle syndrome or that ostrich

syndrome and bury their heads in the

sand and isolate and it's not a good way

to process your grief you need to go and

share it and like I said once you get to

a point where you're at a stage

where you have the capacity to go help

the next person there's always going to

be somebody that you can go help so it's

to be there be available and build a

community around that and it's you know

it was it was slow to get started

because people didn't understand what we

were doing or what the vision was but

there's no shortage of it like you read

the numbers people are dying left and

right all over this country and Arizona

is big you know there's a lot of people

moving here there's a lot of money here

I notice it's one of the biggest you

know per capita states actually with

this problem yeah so there's no shortage

of need for this type of community and

it's growing we've got you know I mean

donors are now coming out of the

woodwork we're trying to eliminate some

of the stigma about it there's a lot of

stigma about the abuse about

losing somebody about losing somebody to

it yes okay yeah as far as stigma that

you're looked at negatively definitely

because people still think it's a moral

failing mm-hmm you know people think

that if you are using drugs you're

morally bad they don't recognize that

maybe you've got some past trauma that

you're using the substance to cope with

and you just got to deal with that maybe

you were sexually abused maybe you were

beaten by your father who knows what it

is maybe not maybe none of those things

maybe they're not they're not

relating to the addiction type of

approach to say you've got a physical

chemical addiction just like a diabetic

needs insulin this person has some

wrong in their brains they're using the

substance and we have to break that

cycle people don't recognize those

things they just think that guy's just a

drug addict mm-hmm he's just he's just a

derelict he's a dredge of society how

could he do this how could he do this

what a piece of garbage

yep yeah that's a really

interesting social dynamic because it's

not just that right it's not just drugs

it's like anybody who does something

wrong or appears like it's something I

mean you're criminal to force the

defense attorney right so how can you be

helping all these criminals how can you

be dealing with this right this the

lowest end of humanity here right yeah

it's like that's not really the case

right you're working with people who

have a problem or have had a problem or

have made a mistake right typically

right and that just that that feeling of

judgment is so easy to make it like it

seems to me like it's a protective thing

for people Yeah right because if I can

separate myself from that right I can

feel better about my sack right right I

don't have to I don't have to lower

myself to that level but the problem is

is everybody's got issues all right

everybody's got issues and you know it

sounds like in the 12 I've never been

through that before but it sounds like a

12-step program at least helps you

confront the fact that you've got

problems

definitely and everybody's got problems

yeah we've got to deal with it and we've

got to help people out and so that's

great I think that anybody who's going

through that or that is able to help

someone out is it's just a good move we

need more of that we don't have I think

enough people that can get beyond

sometimes that idea of the stigma that I

weigh of the judgment to lend a

helping hand out there it happens in

every community every faith community I

know

everywhere it's just kind of like I need

to protect myself so I need to look down

over there right that's great I think

it's fabulous that you're doing that so

you've got so that's at Eric's house

dot-org

Eric's house door yep it's and we have

an actual physical location here in

Paradise Valley Arizona so I know you a

little bit yeah and work with you a

little bit yeah you're a successful guy

I mean am i you are yeah absolutely

you're driven that's good you seem

to be you know in your a lot of

different facets of your life you're

you're trying to be successful you're

you're productive hard worker yeah but

there's been that issue with drinking

yeah so is that just the one area of

release that you've had or is it you

know because really I mean if anybody

saw you or was talking with you it's

like everything's hunky-dory in Portland

with Rob yeah I mean certainly in

the story of my life yeah alcohol has

been the biggest problem you know I

try not to kind of go through my life

and identify all of the hardships that

I've had oh yeah I just you're not a

victim I try not to play that yeah I

mean I can go through and I have a

laundry list of different things that I

can throw out there you know but it's

just something where I

those are my circumstances that's you

know how I lived and I I think I was

drinking in large part to deal with some

of that I didn't recognize it I never

went through a strong analysis as to why

I was drinking I always justified it by

that hey I work hard I like to play hard

and I'm successful I'm more successful

than all my friends then all my you know

most of my family and so what if I

like to go and you know and blow off

some steam and sure and get drunk so

what who's to judge me for that and you

know then it started becoming a problem

especially after Eric died I really

started realizing I wasn't doing the

introspection that I needed to continue

to grow as a man and as a business owner

and as a son and you know as a brother

and all those things and so I started

looking for answers and it took me a

while to kind of get the wheels

off the runway a little bit and I

finally found a good group and dove into

that like I try to do with anything and

and I found that it's a good you know

it's a good program stuff that I think

programs that have good

suppose it's not you know the 12 steps

aren't just applicable to substance

abuse it's a good way to live your life

sure it's a good way to say to do some

good principals are like that right

they're universal right and they apply

across the board if you if you are if

you injure somebody or harm somebody you

got to go make amends with them that's

step 9 you know you got to go just right

clean up your side of the street make

sure that you're writing your rocks and

okay cool and it took me to you know

through the 12 steps to like put a put

words to that mmm so you know I it's

it's a journey you know I think we've

all had our hardships and I try I try to

you know do the best that I can

what is it that drives you to

success do you think I mean you've got

men looking at it kind of you know

you've got a very successful law firm

yeah you've got Eric's house you've got

is a clean slate

that'll really push and we'll talked

about that in a minute yeah so you've

got these nonprofit things these

initiatives that you've been

pushing you're very physically fit you

know work out consistently only biceps

you know so what is it that you think

that drives you why do you why do you is

that a natural thing that most people

have that they're they've got a natural

drive to them or is this something that

you develop is that a skill that you

develop I don't know how other people

operate for me I sort of have always

felt a burden kind of a burden and I

know there's kind of a negative

connotation to that word but to make the

most of my life and whatever I'm doing I

like I've always liked it to play hard

so like you feel a duty I feel a

duty okay yeah that's probably a better

word a duty that I've been given

certain gifts I've had my own you know

trials and tribulations in my life and a

number of different things but I have

one life I've got a skillset I've been

blessed with a number of different gifts

I'm healthy and I've got an obligation

to go make the most of it I think a lot

of it came so I have a Down syndrome

brother Joey is my middle brother Joey's

Down syndrome and ever since

and I was raised by a single mom my dad

wasn't really in the picture ever so

ever since I was a young young boy I was

the man of the household in a lot of

ways my mom was always going to work and

I had to take care of Joey with

downs and Eric my younger brother so you

always had a responsibility always had

it yeah and we found some you know some

videos and I'm the things that I would

say when I was five you know what's

wrong with that kid you know but there

was always this sense of duty and

and I need to take care of everybody so

I've always had that growing up now I do

spend a lot of time on personal

development and coaching and I go to

seminars and I read all the audiobooks

and I'm always looking at how I can be

more effective and more efficient as an

individual because I know that that my

ability my capacity my potential is way

more than anything that I've done I feel

like I just got a lot of room for growth

and accomplishment and I honestly I feel

like I'm just getting started

just scratching the surface just

scratching the surface yeah well you're

young yeah you got a lot to look forward

to yeah and I'm excited about it and the

more the more success that I have the

more I'm able to be of service to

other people you know if I'm working a

nine-to-five job and I'm employed by

somebody else and I don't have the

ability to be creative or to go help or

do things that I'm passionate about I

feel like I'm drowning I feel like

there's something more to life

and when I have the opportunity to go

and kind of do what you find those

sparks and ignite them mm-hmm it just

it's fuel its people I can't like I

can't stop you know some people when I

when I take a day off of work I which I

never do I don't feel full I don't

feel whole mm-hmm I can't just go and

maybe this is a problem and actually

everybody tells me this is a problem

usually just go take a week off go to

the beach I would go crazy I would go

out of my mind there's no way that I

could do that

it's just something where I need to be

going and I don't know what that

I don't know what it is but it works for

me and every time that I've had somebody

to try to deviate me from that kind

of natural instinct I have it goes bad

yes you need productivity to be yelled

yeah yeah I think most people do I just

think that people sometimes don't always

make that jump or realize that even you

know that the more productive you are

them and actually the more it seems to

me that the more responsibility actually

that you take on yes the more fulfilling

life you have yes and so it seems like

well it might be it's almost

counterintuitive because you are gonna

have more stress with more

responsibilities yeah there is gonna be

more anxiety but on the flip side of

that to me I think that I think there's

also more fulfillment and there's more

joy eventually and in doing that you

know the hardest thing that I ever did

was go on a mission right you know

worked my tail off every single day very

difficult circumstances but you know I

look back and I could never have got

done what I did in my life without those

couple of years of learning those skills

those habits and going through all those

difficult times and learning how to work

right you know and so I think

responsibility is key and it seems like

in society today that it's the exact

opposite is what is being pushed it's

about you right what you're receiving

not what you're giving right and if we

can lower your stress lower your anxiety

lower your responsibility then your

esteem self-esteem is gonna go up right

and your happiness is going to hell

through the roof right it doesn't work

no it doesn't work no a good a good

friend of mine somebody who's a mentor

to me in a lot of ways says or explain

it to me and I thought was beautiful and

it's kind of it's totally

counterintuitive like you would say but

he says that he wakes up every day and

asks God for the right amount of

desperation he wants a little bit of

desperation in his life kind of not too

much where

wondering if everything's gonna you know

crumble and fade away but you also don't

want to live with no desperation you

want to have a little bit of that I'm

hungry for more I have to go get this

make yourself a little bit uncomfortable

and you know it's funny but I

started listening to that or thinking

about that and start realizing okay if

I'm really stressed and I have a lot of

anxiety I've got so much on my plate and

I've got all these problems just go do

more just go add more to that just go to

stack something else on and then all

that other piddly stuff that you were

worried about it's all relative it's

gonna get it's gonna get dealt with yeah

it'll get fixed you'll figure it out so

just go that other project just go do it

well you know that's an interesting

thing because I think that I think it is

relative in that sense you know in it

and it's a matter of we deal a lot

in in the other podcast with it we're

talking about order and chaos yeah and I

think you have to have some chaos sure

there has to be some chaos there because

if it's all order and it's all status

quo there's no growth right right and if

there's no growth there's what do you

got to fill that void with something

right right it's something's got to be

filled there and it's usually not good

usually not and so I think that you know

whether it's my political positions or

looking at life I I feel like okay I

need about 70 or 80 percent order right

right I don't want twenty no that's not

gonna work real well right but I want

about 7080 percent or maybe even

sometimes ninety sometimes but you need

a little bit of unknown yeah which is

chaos you need a little bit of problems

and confusion which never go away right

so that you can kind of build a skill

set yes and learn to master problems you

know and I think that you know this

probably happens with every generation

you know and Here I am getting older but

I look down at the latter the next

generation I think you're not learning

how to deal with problems no and if you

don't learn to deal with problems it's

not going to make you happy or it's not

going to increase your self-esteem it's

going to make you more dependent

and less happy right you need to create

learn to create the order out of your

chaos yourself right or you're in deep

trouble right it's just like anything

it's just like exercising you're

adding a certain amount of shock or

chaos to your body you're breaking your

muscles down you're lifting weights same

thing with anything in life you want a

little bit of that I'm not sure how I'm

gonna figure this out but I gotta go do

it and I need to figure it out and then

you do and it's just it's reps it's

muscle memory hey that was a big problem

to me I figured it out it's a small

problem now actually it's no problem

because I got through it

so now what's the next thing I got to

throw in there sure and go get after it

so what role does religion play in your

life that's a great question

one I was not particularly prepared to

talk about but I appreciate that

you know religion so I was born and

raised Catholic and it's been a good

ideology for me I don't think that I

have as strong of a relationship with

God as I should it's been something that

my parents have really dived take taken

a big dive into and they're very

involved with the Casa it's a it's a

Franciscan renewal Center over off

Lincoln and their lives have been have

been dramatically changed I know my mom

wants me to be going to church with her

every Sunday and you know for me

my relationship is more is more personal

and I do I do sort of have to force

myself to check back in from time to

time the 12-step program is something

that is good it is a weekly time for me

to go back and say okay yes you know

acknowledge my higher power and

recognize that there are things outside

of myself that I can't do and I need to

rely on something else but it is

something that I it's sort of I would

say in the early stages it's not a real

mature relationship do you think that do

you make any association with

your drive to improve yourself with a

theology it is did those things match so

not directly so I don't I don't

think that I consciously will sit down

and say I need to improve because God

gave me the gifts and what about it is

because it's the right thing to do that

I definitely do okay

yeah I feel like if I'm not working

hard or I'm not doing what I need to be

doing or growing then it's a moral

failing in a way I'm not meeting my

potential and I've got these gifts to

give and share with the world if I don't

do that it's not it's not meeting

the purpose of why I'm here

right like you said you feel you do feel

a duty and I think that I think the duty

is very closely tied to a moral

structure sure right it's like okay

what's your what's that duty you feel

what is it tied to right that

responsibility in that drive to me it's

tied to something that is truth and it's

something that is you know you feel like

you need to do good right or put more

good into the world at least there's a

moral backing to that or in our law

group yeah you're firm yes criminal

defense attorneys yes why did you choose

criminal defense yeah that's a funny

story actually I went to law school to

become a prosecutor so the opposite of

what we do now to go get the bad guys I

did yeah I was a political science major

and I wanted to get into politics and I

thought okay the best way to do that

let's go be a prosecutor go work for the

county for a while work my way up the

pole run for office that parlays and a

governor or whatever right I'll go that

route so when I was in law school when

you're a first year student there nobody

wants you to go work for them with the

government you're too young you don't

know anything yet they don't have

programs built out for you so I could

not go get an internship or do anything

with a prosecutor's office at least

where I wanted to they wouldn't they

wouldn't take you until you had

basically your third year

then you can go do an externship so I

had no opportunities there when in law

school in criminal law I was always

coming down on the side of the

government we would have these you know

classroom debates and I would say well

the defendant shouldn't have done that

you know he knew better he's guilty we

should take all strikes away and

everything I was totally delusional but

I was sort of adversarial just for the

sake of adversarial you know law school

is pretty liberal everybody there is

very very liberal and so they were all

you know rights and all that stuff and

blah blah blah blah and so I would just

be adversarial for the sake of being

adversarial and take the prosecutors

position on everything I'd be the only

person in the class didn't so anyways I

went and decided I needed

I really wasn't a huge fan of law school

I didn't like to just sit there and read

all day I wanted to go do things so I

got approached from somebody who said

hey this criminal defense law firm is

looking for an intern are you interested

and I thought you know what I'm gonna go

do that I'm gonna see how these scumbag

defense lawyers operate their business

and then I'll be a more effective

prosecutor sorry so you had that stigma

already in place a totally criminal

defense yeah totally I thought they were

shysters and representing people who

were clearly guilty and all that stuff

and even my mom said the same thing

you're gonna go work for a criminal

defense law firm you're gonna represent

those people mm-hmm you know it was just

kind of that thing and I went over there

and very quickly you know realized that

the people who were working with are

very good people they're not bad people

at all they like he alluded to earlier

you know they've had one mistake they

had a little too much to drink one night

they got into an argument with their

significant other turned into a

disorderly conduct charge nobody was

injured nothing bad happened nothing was

broken a neighbor called the police boom

somebody's being arrested taken to

custody or a lot of it was the drug

offenses this was all pre my brother but

you see a lot of people with drug

problems alcohol problems and we would

see some pretty serious cases where the

prosecutor's office was asking for what

I just thought instinctively were

ridiculous penalties we're gonna send

this kid to prison for that

mmm-hmm to go to prison for that are you

nuts and so I started identifying and

relating with the clients and I started

to see how these prosecutors were just

basically executing orders they would

get instruction from the top down and

they were just automatons who were just

executing dude following duties and

executing orders and there was no way

for me to reason with these people to

be an advocate for our clients and say

this is something that is not right so

you saw on the prosecutorial side you

saw kind of a distance seeing an

arm's-length well in other words those

that are those that are being tried or

those that are what's the term I'm

looking for here prosecuted prosecuted

yeah that there there's there a lot a

lack of humanity at that point I mean is

it completely yeah a complete lack of

humanity on two things one on behalf of

the prosecutors so I don't think they

even cared you know from them it was

just a transactional relationship they

were just processing cases through but

also institutionally it was set up the

structure was such that they had no

authority anyways even if they wanted to

give you a deal there would be every now

and then there's a prosecutor with some

heart and they would come back and say

look man I understand this is not right

I feel bad about this but there's

nothing that I can do about it the

policies in place I will lose my job

I am not allowed to deviate or break

away from those policies and so I

started thinking why would I want to be

a part of that system who's doing this

to good people there are other things

that we should be doing to help this

person through it so in other words

let's be let's focus more on

rehabilitating this person rather than

punishing them you've got those two kind

of theories of what the criminal justice

system should be rehabilitative or

punitive and there was no soul punitive

it's all punitive 100% punitive and

there was no way to reason with anybody

and I thought there's apps it didn't

take me long to realize there's no way

that in my in my heart I could ever go

be a prosecutor and do what these people

are doing to people mm-hmm it was a it

was a quick reality you know so it's so

funny because it's really

interesting how

there seems to be an Evan flow of

looking at punitive measures mm-hmm

right so for example you go back to the

Clinton crime bill in the 90s yes and it

was like okay we're putting a hundred

thousand new cops on the on the beat and

we're going to give you three strikes

and you're out and violent crime did

come down right you know so you had more

of a punitive prosecutorial side yeah to

it that lowered violent crime the

problem is is that the other crimes all

went up because the punitive system

had more beef behind it right and so now

it's a matter okay so we've done this

which is great we've lowered our violent

crime side but now we're taking maybe a

lot of people that may need a second

chance or made a mistake

and we're putting them away for who

knows how long right and so it's and now

it seems to be coming back the other way

right now everyone's kind of clamoring

about there's the justice system

is too harsh right it's too hard and I

would imagine we're gonna move toward

that more yeah make some changes and

then we'll get back to the other side

again yeah because then violent crimes

gonna go up yeah yeah I think that's

exactly right there's sort of a pendulum

that swings both ways it goes you know

on the one side you've got this idea

that hey criminals should be punished

and then it swings back the other way

that says well why why are we even

criminalizing that you know in Arizona

drug crimes are felonies even marijuana

crimes are felony charges it sounds good

right if you're in your suburb and you

want a safe place it sounds good right

right to say well let's be really hard

on crime right but it's not that easy

there's a lot of nuance in there right

yeah there's only look I could talk all

day about the injustice is that our

criminal justice system is structured

but it's it doesn't make a lot of sense

in my mind to be putting people in

prison for very minor drug offenses

we've worked on these cases where

there are mandatory sentencing laws

meaning it's mandatory

that a judge sentence you within a

certain range that the judge doesn't

have any authority we've had judges tell

us on the record I disagree with what

this sentence is going to be but I have

no legal authority under the law to give

you anything different you know that's a

really interesting concept because what

you're really doing is you're taking the

ability to judge out of it lately yep

and you're saying okay a judge who has

met the family maybe met the person has

a at least a little bit of an

understanding of knowing this person a

little bit right it doesn't matter who

bad yeah the law says I have no

authority to change this so you're going

to prison

mhm you know I think I think we are

seeing positive movement you know I know

a big part of me is you know concerned

about drug use and people getting caught

in that trap and ruining their lives but

I'm also you know kind of ironically in

a way totally pro legalization of

marijuana because I've seen what it does

when you start sending people to prison

for that charge or at least the

decriminalization of it well it's kind

of like this business does this really

help Society

yeah and does it really rehabilitate

that person to say art because that's

really I mean to me I think about that

situation of course the first thing is

is are you protecting society okay

that's number one but the second thing

is is for the person that is going away

to prison it's pretty you know III think

there needs to be a sense of how are we

helping that person how do we help that

person improve their life or change

their life if they need to right instead

of make it worse yes I mean so if you've

made a small mistake or done something

that you didn't even think was a mistake

yes and then you get put away and then

maybe again you get put away now for a

long time yes you're not improving that

person's life you're not giving them a

chance in that sense no and I've

always wondered about the some of the

terms that are you you know really

rehabilitation correctional facilities

yes correctional facility yeah yeah no

they're not correcting anybody no

they're not and so it's like okay that's

the nice idea all right

a correctional facility for thing you're

using point I've never even thought of

that

that's hilarious incarcerated somebody

has nothing to do with helping to

correct them right right it's like and

what is going on in those places is not

really usually much of something that's

trying to help that person out no and

they can give them a better future no

and they come out and their lives are

mostly over they have a very difficult

time reintegrating into anything they

have a stigma they lose the right to

vote they can't do anything productive

nobody will hire them they've got no

real marketable skill sets and quite

frankly most of them are using drugs

while they're in prison while they're in

custody they will tell you firsthand

it's as easy to get drugs in there

as it is out sure so what are they doing

no no it's a good point so your law firm

is very successful why I think we're

doing things the right way is the short

answer for that

so prior to our in our law group I

worked for two other criminal defense

law firms in Arizona and they were both

awful just from top to bottom so you

learned what not to do we learned

exactly what not to do and I was there

in total about two years before I

realized it's not gonna get any better I

left the first firm to go to a place

that I thought would do it right

would care about their clients would

treat people like people I thought okay

cool this guy's got some morals he's

gonna do things right I go there it's

the same it's the same deal get their

money close the case get him out the

door and I just thought what are we

doing here and so Ryan and I started our

firm on a spare bedroom in my house on a

folding table just decided we're not

we're not doing this anymore we're not

playing that game and one of our are

kind of you know we wrote out a list of

principles that we want to follow and

how we're going to do business and we've

just kind of built that into our culture

that were not this is not like those

other places we are not going to

replicate that and once you start doing

right by people you build that

reputation and then there's almost a

gravity to the firm

and we try to instill that in anybody

who comes on board our team that we're

gonna follow these principles you know

and we're gonna offer this to our

clients and we're you know we're

businesspeople also there's no question

about it right you have to keep the

lights on and you have to build the

systems in place I think one of the

things that separates us a little bit is

our use of technology

we're younger guys we've got a younger

firm the other firms that I was at

they're carrying around paper files and

there's no database

there's no way to cross-reference

interviews between police officers

there's no upkeep on the latest data

that's coming out about these officers

or misconduct or what the policy changes

are there's just no sort of

clearinghouse of data at these firms

which I think is a is insane in 2019 but

you know that's something that we've

also taken full advantage of to use

technology to get good results to keep

the pressure to systematize things where

we can be efficient but also get good

you know get good results but

maintaining a process that our clients

are gonna be happy with and it's worked

out very well we've been very fortunate

I think I think the legal industry I've

worked a little bit in the legal

industry because of my dad who's an

attorney but it seems to me like they

there's kind of a lot of legacy systems

there and a lot of it had to do with

attorneys feeling like I'm a

professional yes and I have to have

this certain demeanor and so it's you

know things like marketing and other

things it just wasn't really kind of

part of the kind of what you would do

yeah right there was a feeling like no

I'm a professional they need to come to

me and you guys really do a great

job in marketing you do your videos yes

on faith your Facebook page how many of

those are you doing so I am now

releasing 60 videos a month so two a day

is the schedule that I'm on and I've got

a number of different series I've got a

watching the Watchers segment so we're

actually cataloguing police misconduct

prosecutorial misconduct judicial

misconduct we're watching the updates

with the judicial system that

politicians what's happening with the

prison's who's getting appointed to the

Supreme Court and all of those issues

I'm staying on top of and just

cataloging those for people but then I

so release just a purely informational

videos and this goes to your point I

think a lot of attorneys who are

operating in the past there's they've

always seen themselves as sort of the

gatekeepers of information you have to

come to me and pay my fee in order to

get access to the information that I

have that's their only card and you know

sounds like you're doing the exact

opposite 100 percent putting it out

there the exact opposite yeah I have a

number of videos that that say you don't

even need to call me this is a good this

is good information just go do this with

your case and it's gonna solve the

problem and I give people my opinions on

judges and different laws and how to

avoid this and what to do and it's been

a tremendous response people are hungry

for that information and there's no

reason in my mind and in this era to put

that behind a pay wall what ends up

happening just so people know people

watch the video and they go hey I like

that guy he knew how to answer that

question and they call us and hire us

anyways yeah so it's a it's a

it's info marketing and it's working

very well that's why we decided to

basically triple our production of

content you've done a lot of like you

said you go to a lot of seminars yeah

kinda true improve your business what

are what are some of the things that

you've learned from doing that what

is apart from marketing and maybe using

social media what are some of the things

that have you think you've been had the

most impact on what you're doing with

your law firm it's a great question and

there's a lot there most of it that I

find is not tactical it's not you should

be doing this video or posting on this

social media platform or using the

software it's those are all good little

tips but the vast majority of content

that has been most instrumental is

mindset its strategic its to think

bigger it's probably the biggest one

that I've that I've ever had it's just

to think bigger basically do what you're

doing and multiply it just add a zero to

the end of everything right and if

you're doing this you can be doing ten

times as much as that and just make that

mindset shift you got to believe that

you're not got to put yourself in a

position where you actually believe that

you you do yeah and the goal is look you

probably are not gonna be able to do

ten times of what you're doing but if

you hit five times of that mmm it's

awesome you've made a dramatic change

shoot for the stars and hit the moon

exactly right yeah those are the big

those are the big takeaways lastly is it

clean slate sobriety clean slate

sobriety org yeah tell me about that

yeah so this is something that is part

of kind of a this is a good cap on

everything this is kind of the

culmination of a lot of different things

going on in my life so I recognize that

there are these weird intersections

going on where I am a criminal defense

lawyer I am somebody who is an alcoholic

right I'm in the 12-step program I lost

a brother to suicide and substance abuse

and overdose and these weird things kind

of just all came together right that's

kind of a weird mix of things and so

this idea came out of being of service

to others so what I do with clean slate

sobriety is I go and I give workshops at

recovery and treatment centers so I

actually go in to these facilities I'm

scheduled for 2:00 tomorrow I've got

back to back it's a two hour workshop

one in the morning one in the evening or

in the afternoon and it's really

comprised of two parts one is I give

everybody at this Center kind of a crash

course on Arizona law Arizona is not

California

we're not Colorado if you get charged

with a drug or an alcohol crime you're

either going to jail or the prison it

depends on you know what your record

looks like but it's very serious so it's

kind of a crash course on that I walk

them through it and say how quickly

something can escalate from a very

simple traffic ticket to a manslaughter

charge with just a couple of minor

tweaks and the facts a couple things

change and your DUI turns into a

manslaughter case and you go to prison

for seven years just with the you know

minor minor tweaks here and there and so

it's kind of a come-to-Jesus moment to

them if you can say look you're in this

Center if you're not taking this

seriously you may not be back here again

you may be in prison you may be going

through the criminal justice system how

do I know that well I practice in that

it's what I do and I've seen it multiple

times and it's not a joke so take

seriously the second part of it is

really where the clean slate part comes

in so what we're doing is we're actually

identifying people there who have either

open cases or closed cases with criminal

criminal convictions and then we're

working them through the process of

clearing their records off so it's in

Arizona we have what's called a motion

to set aside your conviction it's the

closest thing that we have towards an

expungement so they go what we do in

that second hour is given that the tools

that they need and the actual forms

I bring the forms the stamps the

envelopes everything if it's

appropriate we fill out the forms

we get everybody in the group to write

character letters for each other they've

all been in these workshop they've been

working with each other for usually 30

to 60 days so they know each other they

can say with a clear conscience that you

know I've been working with this person

they're taking the recovery seriously

they're doing a good job they're

participating and all that stuff so they

can write character reference letters

for each other and then get those

motions filed so that by the time they

come out of the treatment center at

least the process has been started or

they have the tools they need to finish

it so that they have a clear record when

they get out of there they come out with

a new kind of grasp on life there

they're sober they're in the right mind

for the first time in a long time many

of them and their records are cleared or

being cleared so that they can go apply

for jobs apply for housing and get that

legal stuff just taken care of and so

they you know I think it's been very

well received people relate to me I can

say I know what you're going through

I've gone through it I know those of you

have lost somebody

I've lost somebody and now with my skill

set as a criminal defense lawyer this is

what I'm doing to help to help be of

service to you is my 12-step how can I

go be of service and so we're not you

know we don't charge anybody anything

it's just let's just go do this and it's

been very well received I'm excited to

do it I always get jazzed up like where

were you at typically doing this what

are you doing so I go to the actual

recovery centers so I have this crate

full of all my materials I have this

little dance that I do to explain to

people it's a little terrifying it's a

whole show it's oh it's horrendous they

all look at me and I gotta look it but I

tell you what they all remember it it's

a mnemonic thing that I do and they all

remember

exactly how to do it and I don't think

they'll ever forget it so I go and I

actually bring all my materials set up

shops to our deal and so you know

tomorrow I'm in actually both both the

centers are in Scottsdale

they usually have a pretty big you know

working room where they do their group

sessions so I just take over a two-hour

session for them and say you're

you know whoever you have speaking today

doesn't need to come in I'll kind of

come in and do a legal clinic for all of

your members and usually people are

you know they're very receptive of it

because it's entertaining it's not

I don't stand there and read from a

constitutional law book about you know

whatever it's actually you know

pretty engaging I usually get a lot of

great questions and they're all very

appreciative that that they can begin

turning that page it's been it's

been very good right a lot of fun well

great a lot to talk about

you're a very productive guy and you

definitely go after that duty that

you're yeah you're trying to follow so

well I'm excited for you to this is

great I mean I'm thrilled that you're

jumping yeah yeah well and you've

got your Gruler nation and got a

podcast yeah yeah yeah so we're podcast

bros now yeah that's right it's not a

fun yeah we'll see what happens with

everything yeah anyway Robert appreciate

it

thanks for being here