Bruce Porter and Greg Matsen discuss Discernment in these last days. It is more important than ever to have the Holy Ghost's guidance and grab onto the Iron Rod. The "Mists of Darkness" are thickening and becoming more confusing all the time.
“Plead with the Lord for the gift of discernment. Then live and work to be worthy to receive that gift so that when confusing events arise in the world, you will know exactly what is true and what is not.” - President Nelson
Many members are becoming confused with today's ideologies and theological movements within the church. Some groups have even split from the Restored Church.
in order to just survive spiritually why would that be well I think a lot of that
has to do with the Mists of Darkness that we are seeing today there is a lot of confusion on on new cultural
movements ideas and ideologies and churches uh that are adopting new
things um there's confusion and I I think of those Mists of darkness in that
way that there's a little bit of light but there's a lot of Darkness to it and
sometimes those things pull us away from that iron Rod this interview with my friend Bruce Porter is about discernment
and understanding how do we parse these things out how do we move something from
one side which would be good to the other side which is evil and be able to discern between the two it's getting
harder and harder to do I think you'll really enjoy this all right this episode is brought to you by go do travel you
know that I am the official spokesperson for go do travel and the momentum 25
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go all right welcome to Quick show my name is Greg Matson and I am your host in this episode we bring back my friend
Bruce Porter to talk about the spirit of discernment Bruce how are you doing I'm doing great Greg it's good to be with
you again so I've had this request by several people actually to talk about this topic you know there's so many
things going on there are are are schisms there's new ideas there's new branches of the church that are broken
off even in the last several years and a lot of confusion really uh and so I
think this is an important topic for us to talk about uh let me ask you this first right what how important is it for
us scripturally right to to know to to to be able to
discern right I I I know that for example you know we can go to uh a
couple of the scriptures and and I'm looking here at uh 1 Corinthians 12:10 it says to another the working of
Miracles so it's going over the different spiritual gifts another the spirit of Prophecy another Discerning of
spirits right and then DNC 46 is very similar verse 23 and to others the
Discerning of spirits right and so are there some of us that might have a better gift on of discerning and others
that have more trouble just because those are spiritual gifts that are dished
out I I think there are some that do um
ronai says deny not the gifts of God and I think he that's a reference to the different gifts of the Spirit and he
also says when he talks about the different gifts he talks about that we should pray for some gifts and so we
need if we're going to be listening to alternate voices if I can use that term
then we should be praying for um the discernment of spirits or the Discerning
of spirits um so we we can it's not that we're given one gift and we're only
going to have that gift for the rest of our life we can ask God for multiple gifts and the gifts of gift of
discernment is one that all we ought everyone ought to be asking for and and
can have and I think Joseph was towards the end of his life he was he was
adamantly concerned about the Discerning of true and false spirits and and being
able to see and understand we see this in section 50 of the doctrine covenants as well as later on when he talks about
the three grand Keys um is really a a system of
discernment uh to determine whether a messenger is a true Messenger from God or that he comes truly with power and
that's I mean we learned that even in the temple yeah and I think you know isn't it isn't
part of that you know whether someone's innately got that type of a gift or if they've developed it or they've asked
for it and developed it you can kind of look around you sometimes and kind of
see those that probably have that it seems to me right I can I can go around and I can spot individuals I would say
you know not always right but I can I can discern myself those that might have
that kind of a gift yeah and and that have that you know it's like okay that I I this is someone who is impressive to
me right it's someone who I know is grounded in the scriptures and they've got a background of rooting themselves
in the scriptures and they just think through things
um do you see that also I mean I I do and I think there's I think there's
people out there who do um have that gift and I think you can recognize that and it really comes down as you just
mentioned people who are grounded in the scriptures one thing that the scriptures
teach us over and over again is trust not in the arm of Flesh now that doesn't mean other people that means yourself as
well as other people trust not in the arm of flesh but trust in God and the only way to know what God is trying to
convey or the information that he's trying to convey that you should trust in is to be grounded in the scriptures you have to have a standard because
without a standard there is no standard and and so there are there are people out there who who are grounded in
the scriptures and I think those are the ones that we should uh recognize or at
least be able to recognize that they they have a grounding and they're not trusting in the arm of Flesh or they're
not carried about with every wind of Doctrine or tossed to and fro with with whatever alternate voices may be out
there yeah and you know it's there's I I always you know I know
that a lot of people go and get they give Sacrament talks right and they and they often times we'll say well the topic is Faith and they bring up the
dictionary they go through the dictionary definition and you know it's like this common thing that's done but I
actually do this I do this but I do it for a different reason right so so I I'm pulling up discernment from uh
dictionary.com here's just the explanation The Faculty of discerning Discerning discrimination acuteness of
judgment and understanding and then synonyms are like insight and judgment
but if you go back into the the atmology of this right the DNA of the of the word it comes from middle French from
the 16th century and it's got discernment which is D in in in French which means to
separate right so so there's this idea of how do I and then you get
other I'm going to go later on over a quote from from Elder bedar it's you're
separating good from bad right how good are you at doing that and
and what are the tools you're using to see the two ways you know which do I go with a good or do do I go with the bad
or do I think I'm going with the good yeah because that's the biggest issue I think you know we we all make decisions
based off what we think is a moral choice yeah there has there has to be
both you have to be able to do two things one is to be able to distinguish what's right and wrong or
good and bad and then you have to make a discern too you have to there's I think there's two things involved there is is
that making a distinction and then Discerning uh because that distinction requires some some type of
education and Discerning might be a personal preference one way or the other but but there has to be you have to be
able to make a distinction between right and wrong good and bad you know up or down you know right or left whatever it
is or however you want to look at it but then then we make a discernment as to as to which way we're going to move and
like you say it's just it's getting down to truth discernment is really getting down to truth and error what are are you
actually realizing what is right and realizing what is wrong you we get this
all the way back in the Garden of Eden yeah you know where where where Satan is actually saying hey you know you're
going to know good from Evil I mean this is It's a tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil right you'll be like the gods
and then they partake of it and and and the gods say hey they have become like
us knowing good from Evil so it is God it is being
Godlike to have that seems like a pretty important
virtue a Godlike virtue that you know to be able to distinguish between good and
evil it's like the first thing we get perhaps about the character of God and
and what we are moving into here in mortality yeah that but that comes you
know that that discernment as well as distinction comes with knowledge you have to have that knowledge see Adam
Adam and Eve according to Moses 5 could not sin until after they got the gospel Nei nor any of their children it only
after they get the gospel does it say from that time forth men became carnal sensual and devilish you know so you
there's there has to be some type of of knowledge in their knowledge of right in order to recognize the wrong perhaps and
that's where the scriptures come in you know that's why we trust not in the arm of Flesh We Trust we trust in God and
lean not unto our own understanding um as it says in the Old Testament and so
um you know one of the first things that Satan got Eve to do is disbelieve God's
word that was the very first thing you know you shall not surely die you know
you'll become as the gods and so she partakes so it's what she she is what he does right off the bat is get her to
distrust the word of God which was the command not to and that that you were going to die if you do do it and and
what the consequences are going to be and so that distrust in the word of God is what leads a lot of people down these
uh these forbidden paths or Al or start becoming an alternate voice compared to
what's in scripture and compared to what the Brethren say yeah I uh let me give you this quote
here now from from Elder Bednar he says uh that the gift of discernment can help us
one detect hidden error and evil in others because that's where these things
mostly come from there is a an individual teaching a specific Doctrine right especially with social media and
the internet uh detect hidden errors and evil in
ourselves right find and bring forth the good that may be concealed in others and
finally number four find and bring forth the good that may be concealed in us so again again he's doing the same thing
he's using the idea of discernment is very specific to Good and
Evil yeah whether it's in ourselves or or in those around us right but the The
Mists of Darkness sort to speak are you know I think that that's the the exact right term that should be used I see why
Lehi sees this because the Mists are not black and what
I mean by that solid right they are are they are you can kind of see a little bit right
there's some clarity but but it's really easy to get lost yeah and the further you move away
from that iron Rod it it it then it does become you know you can't see it any longer and so these ideas and ideologies
and these schisms that are breaking off from you know priesthood uh Authority
are there is some truth little pieces of Truth thrown in there here and there but
then they they seem to get twisted and and values are put in different places and and and so to me what happens is
there is a new morality that is trying to be taught an example of this would be
the breaking up of the traditional family yeah and moving into identitarianism and and the lgbtq issues
and it's it's like there's a new morality that's trying to be taught look you need tolerance Love Is Love and I'm
not talking about loving and accepting others I'm talking about creating fam am right an order of a family a man and a
woman and having kids and and and yet so many now are kind of moving down this
path of I believe a Mist where they see some clarity it seems to be a carrot of
this is love and Christlike to to move Beyond this order
and uh but but then again the further away you get from it you see how everything just Falls part well part of
the problem is I mean these these schisms and these different voices out there be it a worldly or be it
politically motivated or be it taught in schools the these are the myths and the
thing is in lehi's dream everyone that walked towards that tree had to go
through the Mists of Darkness but nobody makes it to that tree unless they're holding on to that iron Rod you know The
Mists are there the the outside influences are going to be there the the the reasons and the ease of getting lost
is there as soon as you let go of that iron rod and you're coming right back to establishing a standard we wouldn't have
questions there wouldn't be questions on the on on the lgbtq whatever it is communities and
Lifestyles if the scriptures were the standard and we're starting to throw
in ideas that well it's we really have to love everybody well we do have to love everybody but we don't have to
accept and celebrate it every lifestyle uh we can accept the we can accept the person but we don't have to
accept the actions or the lifestyle that they're trying to propagate on onto onto
mankind but and they are the miss this this I see this thing happening within
the church in the acceptance of of this non-scriptural Doctrine or this
scriptural Miss of missing the Mark or scriptural sin where we're accepting one and to accept one we have to accept them
all and we're not realizing that we're we're surrounding ourselves in these Mists and letting go of that iron rod
and nobody makes it to the tree without that iron Rod yeah and and that I'll tie
that in a little bit here president Nelson uh a couple a year year and a half ago he said
uh he said good inspiration is based on good information right well the best
information we have is in the scriptures right right and so that you know it's and I think that's really important
right it's what information do you have have you gathered have you gathered the right
information and and then and then have you pondered it and can you receive an
answer from that and get because that's going to give you the right discernment and I think the part of that
pondering is going to be questions and you look at always in the in the in in the in the church in the gospel you've
got Joseph Smith I think is probably the perfect example of of all of these questions these always
asking he's not just downloading something you know just like here you go
here's the thumb drive Joseph here you know take the thumb drive and you've now got the restored gospel he has to get it
piece by piece bite by bite so to speak and and it's always based on what he's
asking which is just a phenomenal it's it's a really interesting Dynamic right it's like you
figure it out and ask the questions Nephi has to do the same thing right
it's it's he and the whole restoration is brought about by his question on James
15 uh you know about about uh you know lacking lacking wisdom and then all of a
sudden the first Vision comes about the whole Joseph Smith translation of the Bible is based off of him going through
the Bible and then asking questions and then we we're getting not just the jst
we're getting DNC we're getting probably um you know more along you know Moses
and and the Book of Moses and many other things that are now being pulled down
from God because of these questions that he's put into a position to ask because
of the original information that he has starting off with very little but because of the
original information because of the Bible that he has right he's Revelation doesn't come ad hoc there's an old tal
talmudic statement says there's no stirring above until there's a stirring below you know you don't bless the food
on an empty table do Covenant says you can't run faster than you're able nibbly
once put it this way you have to be just as prepared to receive the answer as you are to ask the question and like you say
um the whole restoration of the church came to Joseph or we receive that
restoration and it takes place because Joseph went to the Lord with questions that's why he's telling him in in
Kirtland you need to keep working on the on the on the B you need to keep working on that translation of the Bible because
the Lord knew it would Inspire or create the Bible and that translation would
create that would become the Catalyst to create the questions that would lead to the Revelation for the organization of
the priesthood it's there's always a catalyst that precedes the Revelation and and and the catalyst is
creates the question and that that again when you go to the Lord you get the Revelation for that and
so but you can't be looking beyond the mark That's the whole key that that it
talks about there in Jacob in in the Book of Mormon if you look Beyond The Mark hard enough and long enough then
the Lord's going to let let you fall into those into those alternate voices and those alternate paths he says I'll
leave you unto your own devices when you start looking beyond the mark and it all comes back to that scriptural standard
if you don't you can't believe in a God you don't believe or you can't even know what God wants you to believe and what
God then what God knows and what God is saying what his Commandments are if you're not reading the scriptures you
know even secondhand when somebody explains to you what God is and what God wants that's
secondhand we have the handbook we have the scriptural handbook and we we can know exactly what God wants and that's
and that's really an aspect of of discernment is you have to have you have to
know what's right what's wrong what God wants what God doesn't want what he
expects what he doesn't expect you have to understand God or you can even make a
a a case for intellectual discernment or spiritual discernment
even now this is interesting to me because you know again I'm going to go back to the dictionary definition here
and one of them is acuteness of judgment and understanding this idea of judgment
and then again uh um a synonym they've got a synonym is is
Judgment for discernment um I I I just wonder you know in in in as
I've talked about a lot on this podcast there is kind of a a a complete push
back a complete there is a push back on judgment today in our culture and even
seeping in through the church where where we're not getting a message as much about uh you know certainly at the
local levels about look there is a judgment and and we are going to be judged judged and and if you go through
the book of Elma in chapters 11 and 12 Aly like and Elma you're you're going to
be judged by your Works you're going to be judged by your thoughts you're going to be judged by your work your words you
know it's there's judgment and and that judgment I think is crucial and important as a Doctrine and as a reality
because that judgment is what determines exaltation or not and and so
it's not just like oh this is horrible I mean it can be and maybe to some degree
it is for all of us to some degree but it's also what what opens the door toward
exaltation right because the judgment is going to is kind let's just call it the
door that you know based on those Works words and and thoughts and you know
repentance certainly over all of this is is what allows us to reach out
exaltation but if there's a reduction in the doctrine of
judgment and the doctrine of I I'm just you know maybe this is a
stretch I don't know but as I look at that I think to myself well somewhere down the river here a little bit from
that is discernment and and and and are we when when we get rid of that idea of Judgment
of ourselves are we also losing discernment boy I I think I think we are
and I think you're on to something there because you know the way I understand scripture and this and again this is
coming back to me is God doesn't say okay you you and you are going to the celestial and you and you are going to
the terrestrial according to Mormon there in chapter nine of his book in The Book of
Mormon he says we will we will have a bright recollection we will see our nakedness and the glory of God and the
Holiness of Jesus Jesus Christ which will cause an unquenchable fire which Elma then says we will then shrink from
the presence of God and would if we could command the mountains and the rocks to fall upon us so it's not it's
not God saying I want you over here it's us saying I don't feel comfortable in
the presence of God so I want to be over there this this is why the Judgment of God is just because he allows us to make
that judgment and the whole thing comes down to that character and a character
that is accepting of alternate Lifestyles a character that wants to
celebrate something that God says we shouldn't be celebrating and something that he says in scripture will keep us
from the presence of God because because that that lack of discernment turns into
a character trait we have to be if we know what the work and glory of God is
we have to decide what it means to have an eye single to his glory you know and that may be that may
be the whole that may be the foundational concept of discernment of
what is God's work and glory and what is my eye single to that work in glory I'm am I Discerning am I making a
distinction and a discernment as to what will be best for his work and
Glory yeah it's also interesting when we look at things like uh you know we talk
about vices as something that removes agency um but certainly it's something
that removes discernment yeah right I mean when you have it I think that there's if if you're obsessed with
something or you're addicted to something um overzealous over even
certain ideas whether it's political or or or whatever it might be right and and
you're it seems to me like that also would reduce your ability to pick between good
and good and evil well it does it without without question it does because we everyone has weaknesses and everyone
panders to those weaknesses and to the ego that's that's that surrounds those
weaknesses and so we we actually become slaves to to our flesh as as Lehi says
there in second Nephi chapter 2 he talks about uh the Flesh and the evil
contained therein and he says and because of that flesh and the evil contained therein our desires appetites
and passions Satan gains control over us then later on he says the same thing in
uh first Nephi 13 where he starts talking about the plain and precious truths he says because of the plain and
precious truths that are taken away now that's that's knowledge that's that's an understanding of Truth taking away the
plain and precious truths he says this is how Satan gains control over man so we have the body and we have the Mind
those are the two ways that Satan gains control the body and the mind and if we if we succumb to the ignorance or to the
flesh either one then we're creating a character that cannot dwell in the presence of
God yeah that's really interesting yeah okay yeah that's a good way to put it so that he if he have if we give up control
of our body and our mind um we're we're in trouble so that
that's that's a good way to put it okay um so I'm going to go back here and this is a something that is repeated often I
see it often times in my comment section and it's become uh a very popular
uh quote from president Nelson and it says here uh in in the coming days it
will not be possible to survive spiritually right not possible to
survive spiritually without the guiding directing comforting and constant
influence of the Holy Ghost so if that's true right then another part it seems to
me of discernment is not just the reasoning which is very important I mean that's where we're going to get answers
also but it's also worthiness right it it's the
worthiness to be able to be guided and directed if you if if you you could have all the knowledge in the world and we've
seen this happen you can have all the knowledge I had had this guy on my mission actually in Mexico which was a
very rare thing but he spoke really he spoke English very very well and he was
extremely well educated as a PhD and uh he had every you know every
gospel book in English in a in in a really large Library similar to what you've got back there behind you and and
uh he had been excommunicated recently and we we would go and visit him every once in a while and he wanted to get back in the church
and but he had all of this knowledge right really you know really well
centered in the gospel but
unworthiness in a way it took away his knowledge right it it's like it took
away the knowledge that he had um and and and for a period of time
for several years he lacked discernment there's the great scripture
in in um section 93 of the doctor covant it says the wicked One Cometh and taketh
away light and Truth through Disobedience so as soon as we as soon as
we become or or are choosing to be disobedient to God then we begin losing
light and Truth one of the one of the terrible things about a lay Ministry of which our church is really based on is
that everyone becomes an expert in religion no matter how active they've been or inactive they've been no matter
how much they've read the scriptures or not read the scriptures La Ministry
makes everyone an expert on their own religion but but when Satan comes as DNC
93 says and taketh away light and Truth through that Disobedience people think they know
people think that they understand uh even though they may not be reading the scriptures and they may not be using the
scriptures as a standard and so that those Mists of Darkness grow thicker and
thicker in in our Disobedience ESP especially when we think we we understand it's I think it's Jacob that
says there in in second Nephi he says he says uh uh wo into the Learned those
that are learned because they think they are wise and then he says but they're not
even though they think they're wise they're not and if you don't if you're not using the scriptures as a standard
all the learning in the world doesn't do any good but the SC it's using the scriptures as a standard that opens the
door for the for the gift of the Holy Ghost or for the Holy Ghost to guide and direct you because you've got the
scriptural road map and the Holy Ghost will guide you through that road map not
outside of that because that is the standard and you have to have that scriptural ro road mapap for the Holy
Ghost to guide you in the right directions so the church is set up in a
really interesting way I mean going along with what you're saying there it it you know it's so different than than
other denominations or maybe any other religion that I can think of it's it's set up where you know you don't
have just a let's call it a pastor or a priest right you you
have and then and then an audience and participants right
um more like observers in some way but in the church Everything Is
democratized Right you've got you've got a priesthood that is given out to every
worthy male down to the age of 11 now right it's not it's not just in just not
just you know one person or a few people in each congregation it it's it's spread out completely and so now all of a
sudden oh I've got Authority so that comes with both
responsibility and with danger right that would come with that and then and then secondarily you have the knowledge
where if you are focusing on on understanding the gospel
uh and and pushing people to you know motivating people to read the
scriptures then then you're also motivating people to ponder and to think
about it and to come up with not just good ideas but bad ideas right so you're you're opening up
if you will it's like it's like you're you've got a forest of the tree of
knowledge of Good and Evil right that we all partake of and it's like okay this is a really
dangerous game this is a dangerous way to go right because it's so open
book and so democratized to those that are not let's call them the elites they're not the Learned they're they're
not maybe even the most spiritual and even in the temple you know kings and queens priests and
priestesses what what everybody you know so so it's spread out to everyone but it's so there's a danger there
right but it's obviously the way the Lord wants it and and it it but on the flip side of
that the other side of the coin it opens it up to people to grow and progress and as you say put on the character of
God you know that's the great thing about the great and terrible thing about agency is you
can use your agency to be right and you can use your agency to be wrong and you have to allow people both you know
opportunities to do both that's that's the that's the great thing about it in
the scriptures there's what I have called or talked about the three three doctrinal M that people kind of focus on
there's actually five if you want to get technical about it but the three doctrinal Ms that show up in scripture
are milk meat and Mysteries and the church has a responsibility to provide a NeverEnding
supply of milk products because it has to teach to that lowest Comm denominator of of the primary child or the
investigator or the new member that that's that's correlations responsibility is to provide a never-
ending supply of milk products if you want the meat then you take that those
you start into the scriptures you use the scriptures for your study the scriptures can be can give you the meat
if you want to go beyond that milk and I hear people all the time say well I don't like going to Sunday school
because I'm not learning anything new well it's the milk product you have the milk products every once in
a while you might get a whiff of a barbecue or something that's going on but but the church's responsibility is
to make sure you have everything you need for that milk product that you have to give you that every Supply the meat
comes from the from your study from your personal study of the scriptural standard now the Mysteries when you've
exhausted the milk and the meat the Mysteries are and it's actually in scripture the that's one thing that
we're told to be seeking for seek for the mysteries of of God the Mysteries come after you've exhausted the other
two when you've exhausted your research in the scripture then God will give you those Mysteries but they're laid on but
there's they're with restriction as it says in Elma unto man it is given to know the mysteries of God nevertheless
they are laid under strict command not to impart to anybody because it has to be line upon
line precept upon precept a person has to be just as prepared as you were to receive it for them to get it from you
and the it's not going to exceed Joseph Smith said when a person receives a revelation a manifestation it's not
going to exceed their responsibility and the responsibility is for themselves and their family first or
they're calling within the church but it's not to it's not to it's not to
govern the church it's not to tell the church it's not to teach the people and this is where people go wrong they think they have these special knowledge so
those three doctrinal M's milk meat and Mysteries and then we have the problem with the other two M's and that's
meetings and manuals and that's where things go off
track but yes but we we it all comes back to that scriptural standard whether
a person knows knows the scriptures or they're they're versed well enough in the scriptures to to have a discussion
about it you know I can't when people talk to me about different things as soon as they say well I think I believe
or I was taught the disc is over it's I I can't argue with what they think I
can't argue with what they've been taught and I can't argue with what their Traditions are but if you're going to
use scriptures I can talk to you all day on different topics and subjects because that's that's the standard that I use to
determine whether something and that's that's the standard of discernment really and I use the I use
the I hope hopefully use the spirit but the scriptures have to become that standard of dis discernment and
distinction uh here's another one from president Nelson it is uh personal
revelation can be honed to become spiritual discernment to discern means to sift to
separate or to distinguish the gift of spiritual discernment is a
superal gift so I what would you say on that how does
personal revelation how do we hone personal revelation into spiritual discernment
what do you think well in my opinion Joseph Smith said the same thing that the your Revelation and the
manifestations are not going to exceed your responsibility now a lot of people are
people who look and it's people who are looking for for Messengers one thing we
we learned from Joseph Smith from the restoration if an angel appears like Moroni did to Joseph Smith when an angel
appears all he does is quote scripture even in the first Vision Christ quoted scripture Moroni just
quoted scripture over and over and over again sometimes he add a little bit more sometimes he explained even when Christ
comes he quotes Isaiah in third Nephi when a manifestation takes place he he
the Angels quote scripture um and so people who are looking looking for
manifestations and who are seeking for manifestations when you have all of the scriptures before you you have what God
wants you to know already now but people who are looking for it and this is where Joseph Smith
started to get worried towards the end of his life he gives us section 50 where it talks about the spirits and evil
spirits and and Discerning of spirits in section 50 and then the three grand keys
he says okay if you're going to if you're going to be visited by Angels then you need to test to make sure that
that messenger comes is a true Messenger from God and that he comes with power and so he even in a talk before he
passed way he says is what you're doing when you reach your hand forth to shake the hand of that angel be it a just man
M made perfect be it Satan or be it a resurrected being is what you're doing is testing them for the signs and tokens
to know whether or not they're a true Messenger from God so Joseph was was was
concerned about these things in the last days and we're seeing that right now but when people are striving for looking for
or demanding from God a manifestation or a or some type of visitation you can bet
that Satan will appear as an angel of Light to that person he will appear as an angel of
Light to lead them astray and take them just like he did Eve get them to doubt
the scriptures and get them to doubt the prophets because that's what he that's the first thing did with Eve well you
shall not surely die even though God told you that you're really not going to die yeah and that whole idea of coming
showing as an angel of Light the same it's the same thing right it's it's that that's why it's a new morality when
you're you're convinced to change something there are very few people there are some but there are very very
few people that are so evil themselves that that they seek Darkness
yeah right there are some that but that there are very few but the vast majority
of us are always going to try and follow something about the light and and so
when we get confused about that's why I say these Mist Of Darkness there is light in there there's still some light
and I think the only way that you know pretty much the only way that that Satan can operate on a large scale is to
change our morality yeah because we're not you know the working with a the the
principle of numbers people aren't going to change just because well I want to do evil right they they change the carrot
has to be morality you know it it always is even even when Moses taking the children of Israel out out of Egypt you
remember the story of balam and uh Barack you know and and the prophet says
well I can't these are the Lord's people these are the Lord's people and I can't do anything about it I can't stop what
the Lord's work with the Lord's people but he says he says to the King there he says if you want to stop it send in the
prostitutes let's change their morality their morality will destroy them that's where the that's that's and that's what
happened because I mean the prophet told the king he says just just work on the
morality if you want to if you want to thwart the people of God led by a prophet of God then you attack the
morality and that's what's happening today we see that all over the place it's it's really strange for me to see
and in Utah I see it even here in Arizona and places but in Utah there's so many members of the church that has
has the pride flag out on their lawns so many members and to me they're not
thinking at all because this LGBT or homosexual
lifestyle in scripture is never mentioned without adultery and
fornication and lasciviousness so if you want if somebody wants the church church to accept by
love an adulterous or a a a homosexual lifestyle then they must be just as
willing for the church to set accept an adulterous Lifestyle the mother who wants the church to accept her son or
daughter or her homosexual son or daughter has to be just as willing and
demanding that the church accept her adulterous husband at the same time because they're always listed in the
same scripture together always and so that's that's a very
subtle way that that Satan is working on moralities now we have other issues that are taking place at this time because
because the government and our public schools are turning these scriptural
sins or these these what we would we might call moral sins within scripture
they're turning them into civil rights and as soon as you turn them into civil rights then the rising generation says
have a right to live this way and see these are those myths that are out there and they're saying I have a right to
live this way because the government says the government is setting the morality instead of God anymore we're we
forgot this what he's saying in scripture and so we're using we're using the government's morality to establish
our morality and like you say it always begins with the with the morals and the
values that should separate us from the rest of the world rather than embrace in
the world the morals and values of of of our religion should separate us from
whatever the world's doing but we're not we're we're falling behind in that yeah well there's a lot I could say
on that um yeah it's very unfortunate I mean as I look at what's odd you know
again this is kind of that carrot I'm talking about especially with these new Mists which are actually old Mists but
they're revived here for the last you know really gotten strong here in about the last 40 years but
it's uh the carrot on all of these right now
for example is is empathy and compassion yeah and it's a change in the idea of
what love is and actually and this was a a talk that was given by uh was this
this was Elder Elder Holland president Holland's talk on Christ and and he
talks about charity well what is the Pure Love Of Christ and he goes over specifically and I'm I'm paraphrasing
here but he's like this is Tethered love is Tethered to judgment
love is Tethered he talks about truth actually love is Tethered to truth you can't separate it otherwise
it's not charity yeah right and and and and he goes on and talks about how you
know we get these different ideas of what Christ is as an example and and that's what we always do as people we we
start changing including the people of God we start changing what God is
because if we can change what we worship into what we want yeah right then then
everything is fine everything works great we've broken then the first two Commandments and the Ten Commandments
we've created another God in our image and likeness you know because that's what we want we just can't you know and
and and there's issues that are that are that surround that in trying to create an image the image of God in our own
desires and appetites and instead of being saved and this is the this is coming back to that concept or that idea
of having an eye single to the glory of God is saving people from their sins not
saving people in their sins because we love them but we love them we save them from
their sins because we love them you're quoting Elma right now again going right back to the scriptures exactly we we
love we save them from their sins because we love them yeah and that's that goes back and
this is what this is where again it's like okay if you don't have first of all
let's go to the iron Rod here for a second again it's you need do need to hang on to the iron Rod but if you don't
know where it is if you don't know what it is what are you hanging on to and is
it worth hanging on to yeah right and and so it's you know you can say those
things because you know the scriptures you can say you know this has already been spoken of you can't be saved in
your sins you know speaking to the ammonites who don't believe in judgment and don't
believe in Christ it's like yeah you you
can't you've got to know the scriptures and I think that you know I I know that
President Nelson talks about you know you've got to have The Guiding Light of the of the Holy Ghost here in in the last days to be able to make it
spiritually but I think the best way to get that is to delve into the scriptures yeah know what they are I have the
hardest time understanding for example and maybe I'm just not getting
it but all of these people whether it's the pride flag or or whether it's going
off with the snuff rights or whether it's you know these other schisms and different ideas it's
like are you it doesn't seem to me like how do you do this if you really know
the scriptures yeah right H how do you get there because it seems to me
that you haven't I just you know because I just read this yesterday or I read it a month ago and I know I know this is in
here how do you change the the what you think the gospel
is if it's right there how do you change Jesus into a teddy bear Jesus if he's
he's you know as Elder uh president Holland went over there's a robust
profile of what his character is yeah it's not just a vacuum over here of of
lovey-dovey yeah you know some of these people like like Snuffer like like Denver
Snuffer um he's rewriting the scriptures to accommodate his beliefs he's doing
away in his in his rewriting of the Doctrine and Covenants he's doing away with the three grand keys of testing
Messengers so that he doesn't have to deal with that or doesn't have to answer that question so it it's still coming
down uh to him not having a scriptural standard but him designing his own
scriptural standard and that's how that's how they they get away from it because they quit believing in the
standard that we've been given the canonized scripture and they start saying well that needs to be Chang this
needs to be taken out this needs to be added and so they start rewriting the scriptures to accommodate their
beliefs so you know ending on this note then uh
the solution in so many things of this obviously it's worthiness and and and
and getting your nose in the scriptures I think and and it's you know I think about like the come follow me program
and okay I think that this is a great thing and there's a lot of commentary on it and everything else but how how do
you how do you get people to actually read the scriptures you know I have a
come follow me series and I love that people watch it but that's not the
source right you you You' you've got to get into the scriptures that's where you're going to get your own personal
revelation not just a message a spiritual message you know and so how do you get people to read the
scriptures boy that's that's the $64 question how do you get him to how do you get him to read the scriptures we
want to be entertained I I sent a manuscript in Deseret Book one time and
they sent a letter back said well this is too doctrinal we don't want really any doctr because it's it's too hard for
people story yeah they they want 100 pages to 150 Pages they want it to be
able to be read at one setting and they and in a nutshell they said we prefer
the fiction of men men mingled with scripture we don't want Doctrine and you
know and I don't I don't fault desire at book for that because that's the
marketing well the market is focused on on the people on
that market you know what they want is focused on the market which means that's what the people want we want to be entertained
you know we'd rather watch a movie about the scriptures than we would read the scriptures we'd rather watch uh some
type of video like we're doing in Sunday school right now we'd rather watch that video then have to spend the time to
read the scriptures and underlined and start making notes or looking at differences with you know that are on
the page and so how how do you how do you stop a a an entertainment-based
culture uh from wanting to be entertained and turn it into study nobody it's you know
your question is a valid question and I don't know that there's a good answer to it yeah that that I haven't heard one
yet I don't know I mean I think the come follow me program helps for those that actually will go into the scriptures you
know I think that that's a big help but uh yeah it's uh it's a it's a tough deal
I think I think Abraham's got an answer an answer there but that's that's from
Abraham's point of view and Abraham you know he says I was a follower of right I possess great knowledge and I was a
follower of righteousness and I wanted to possess I wanted to be a greater follow of righteousness and possess
greater knowledge and so is what he's saying is that the more you understand about the scriptures the more obedient
you can be to God and the more obedient you are then the more the more the greater the desire to learn more so that
you can be more obedient and be a greater follow of righteousness but but
we just don't have the we just don't have uh the culture we don't have the
mindset right now to spend the time in the scriptures because we want to be more obedient to God like Abraham
was you know it's uh the principle you were talking about uh with Des book and
you know we're going to basically the marketing on it is is we're going to get what we want exactly exactly that's what
I'm saying so I think we also there is you know there's the will of God and
there 's The Arc of Revelation and prophecy right and but inside of that is
the people of God are going to get what they want it seems to me right they're G to get what they want and so you look
back at Israel and and you see what happened at SI right they they did not want to see
the face of God they did not want to join Moses going up sin right they're they got what they wanted and that means
they lost the entire higher law yeah and and and ended up with a second set of
tablets and it changed everything for centuries yeah maybe Millennial let me
yeah maybe Millen over Millen yeah it's like uh you know we're gonna get what we want yeah to some degree he's only G to
as you said you know the principle of you're you're only going to be given what you can be responsible for well that certainly applies to the body of of
the church as it would to us individually yeah God God has
perfect will and he has a permissive will his perfect will is go and do the works of Abraham but his permissive will
is is you know you you'll get exactly what you want you that as that verse in
DNC 88 says you will receive that which you are willing to receive because you would not receive that which you might
have received you know so we we will get what we want I mean that that works in in
almost in in in in the whole G am of desires appetites and passions
that's what it says there in in um in Jacob says God God just turned them over
to their own desires they got exactly what they wanted and seeking alternate voices and looking after uh false
Revelations and F false manifestations and things like that he just turned them over to it because that's what they
wanted yeah and that to me brings it full circle to the beginning of what we talked about you know with the quote by
President Nelson of the good inspiration is BAS on good information you're going to get the inspiration based on the
information you have yeah hopefully you're pulling that from the scriptures and and and and
not not other ideas that are that are that are just out and about right and uh
and then the idea of questions the idea of of and desire that Abraham would have certainly there are questions there he
has to get that greater knowledge and greater righteousness has got to be founded in in what are the questions
he's asking and where do they come from you know I mean you've got to have a certain heart and character already in
place or built and developed to ask the right questions what one of the things
we you can often tell where a person's coming from by the questions they ask are you asking the are you looking for a
reason not to believe with your questions or are you looking for a reason to believe with your questions
everyone's GNA have questions and doubts but Abraham was always looking for reasons to believe more to understand
more to comprehend more so that he could be more obedient but you can tell people
but when you're talking to them are they asking questions or looking for reasons not to believe or are they looking for
reasons to believe so we have to we have to decide where we're at the great thing that we see in in the Old Testament is
this rule of the remnant it's in the Book of Mormon it's all through the Book of Mormon 2 but it's this rule of the
remnant when I when Elijah goes into the Wilderness after the his fry with the priest of Baal and
he says I man I've I've been talking for everybody nobody's listening to me and I
just want to eat a worm and die and the Lord says you don't realize it but there's 7,000 people um Isaiah in
chapter six of his of his book Isaiah the Lord says you need to preach but you need to speak and the people are not
going to be able to hear and they're not going to be able to listen they're not going to be able to see or understand and no doubt Isaiah says well why do it
then the Lord says well there's going to be about 10 % of them that do and the Book of Mormon is filled with this rule
of the remnant that there's always a Remnant spared now we have a tendency in the church think it's the church is the
remnant of the world and that's what's going to be saved but no that's not the case because where there's no law
there's no punishment and there's a Remnant within the church that's going to be saved we have to decide are we the
mass man are we part of the masses that aren't listening or are we part of that
Remnant that are listening and using the scriptures as that standard and boy it's
again it comes back to trust not in the arm of Flesh you just don't do that not
even your own education or your own understanding trust not in the arm of
Flesh yeah appreciate that well Bruce again another great discussion this is a very important and applicable practical
topic right now and uh I think it's going to be even more important as these
myths are continuing to thicken oh they are around us and the thing is is those
that fall are the ones that let go of the iron Rod nobody makes it to the tree
without holding on to that iron Rod Nobody Does even when they get there there's there's some people that do two
and a half gainers off that iron Rod into the river of filthy Water Swimming directly towards that great and spacious
building but nobody gets to the tree without holding on to that iron Rod all right Bruce appreciate it we'll
have you back soon all right thanks Greg you take care
