Time For Influencers To Go On The Offense - Winning Without Dunking

Christian Williams of The Holy Rebellion joins Greg to discuss the growth of Latter-day Saint Influencers and the battle of misinformation from anti sources online.

From clearing misconceptions to comparing worldviews with confidence. Stop Defending. Start Advancing. Why we need doctrine-forward content—not endless reaction mode. What Would Paul Do on Social Media? Not everyone is a content creator, but everyone can push the truth forward. We have the pearl, the Restored Gospel—So Why Are We Always Reacting? We Can Flood the Earth With Truth (And It’s Already Happening)

 Raw Transcript:

so much anti- Mormon content online. Are we still in a position, for whatever
reason, of defending the faith? Is that always the best thing to do? I think it works. I think we've got a cadra of
online influencers that are finally getting out there, defying the spiral of silence and starting to show people what
Latter-day Saints are really all about, what our beliefs are, showing contrast with the ridiculous accusations that are
oftenimes put out online about Latter-day Saints and about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. But are we always going to stay in just
a defensive mode? We need, I believe, doctrineforward content, not just
reaction. I know we're a minority, but we can't always be in kind of this victim position. We need to come more
from a position of strength. I love the contrast on the reaction videos, but there's still reaction. We have a pearl
in the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. I hope that we are able to lean into the uniqueness into the peculiarity of our
doctrines of the plan of salvation of the plain and precious things that we have. And what is peacemaking? Is it a
weak approach to things? Is it a an approach that at all cost
goes against conflict? What does peace really mean? What is the peace of God? I
believe it is the order of God inviting people into that order and into that truth, persuading them through charity.
That doesn't mean that everybody's going to do it. Also, what would Paul do if he
was on social media? One of the great things I love about Christian Williams of the Holy Rebellion in this interview
is that he talks about how you don't have to even be a content creator to get online
and share the truth. you can get involved, for example, in the comments sections and really make a difference
there. I think we need I think it's time for us to start moving from just
clearing up misconceptions to getting to a to a point where we are actually
comparing world views. They're stark in their differences and we should be doing
this with confidence. The Holy Rebellion is doing a great job online. They are really kind of blowing up on Instagram
and they've got a very important event this weekend for podcasters and all others in Lehi on the 7th. I know this
is kind of late notice. We've already advertised this once, but I want to do it again to get an extra push here before the next couple of days, February
7th. I'm going to put a link in the description if you're interested. This episode is brought to you by Go and Do
Travel and our Gospel on the Nile cruise. We have sold out all of the early year cruises on this, but we do
have the fall cruises available October 27th through November 6th. You can cruise with us down the Nile, visit the
temples, learn more about the temple than anywhere else except the temple itself, I believe, and put a little
check next to that bucket list that you have. Go to quickdia.com, go to the top trips and events, scroll down to gospel
on the Nile. I would love to see you there. Here we go.
All right, welcome to Quick Show. My name is Greg Matson and I am your host. In this episode, we bring back Christian
Williams from the Holy Rebellion. Christian, welcome to the show. Yeah, thanks Greg. Good to be with you
again. I want to talk about this massive mountain of anti- narrative on the
church that we find online. How do we topple it? Should we topple it? What
needs to be done to, as I would explain it, guide people through the midst of
darkness online? That's a good question. And I've heard some people call it the accusatory fog
online. But I like that analogy of this darkness spreading. I you you and I have had a conversation before about this,
but I actually think part of the solution when God creates the world, the first act of creation is he separates
the light from the darkness. What's interesting is he doesn't destroy the darkness necessarily. Maybe it's because it can't be destroyed. It's just this
eternal thing. What he does though is he separates it and calls the light good and that creates contrast. And I've
heard you use that word before. And I think that's what we need to do. So when people go online right now, they're only
seeing one side. They're seeing our faith through the lens of its detractors. And so all they see is
darkness. And what's starting to happen is we're mounting some sort of a defense
on this side and creating that light and contrast. And so that's a good start if we can just continue to create that
contrast. But to an immense degree, just huge, so that when people go on and they see what they're saying versus who we
are, they'll see the light from the darkness and hopefully see that the light is good. that's that's at least a
piece of the solution there. You know, I've looked at I've thought about how this should be approached.
Uh there are different phases I think that that we're going to go through as as we do this because this is going to
happen and the toppling is what I'm saying where not not that you're going
to convince everybody. That's not really the goal. That's not how it works. but that you're going to bring awareness and
clarity and give people an opportunity to see what the church is, what the restored gospel is and and how it can be
meaningful in their life. But there are different stages often times that one goes through in in changing a paradigm.
Yeah. And so there are different things that work and don't work in certain stages of
that. So, for example, right now as you're we're just starting to get out there a lot more, it's a matter of can
you just have that little pierce of light that someone finds it happens to drop into their feed and they've seen
all of this other information on anti- uh uh an anti-narrative, let's call it,
and finally something comes up that's just a little bit different and they're like, "Oh, you know, now maybe there's a
little bit of doubt as to what they've been hold and the narrative that they have adopted that's been fed to them
spoonfed to them and so there's a little bit of a change now as that light
perhaps grows a little bit more and more I think what needs to be done is that
there needs to be an opportunity for clarity
and contrast from what is being told to what the actual truth is
and an opportunity for people to uh see
genuine Latter-day Saints that are living their faith. In other words, experience. Yeah. Right. What what kind of experience
they're they're they're how they're living their faith. Um
also there is a doctrinal focus that I do
think is very important. And what I mean by that is
most of what we do right now is defense. It's it's apologetics.
Yeah. And I'm not really into that that much. That's not something I do a whole lot of, but it's more along the lines of,
okay, here is what uh Alyssa Granfield said on something. So now I'm going to
do a reaction video on this and clarify this. I think that's great. I think it's it it's good. It's wonderful. It it it's
gonna it's like, okay, here's from a Latter-day Saint on how we actually believe this or how this actually works.
But you're still in a position of defense. Yeah. As you do that, I do think that some content creators
need to go on the offensive. And when I say that, I don't mean attack,
but I do mean move forward with thought and doctrine
that is found in the interfaith space. And I'm going to give Jacob uh Jacob Hansen a shout out on this where where
you're actually pushing forward on this is what we believe,
not as a reaction to somebody else, but actually a force of doctrine that goes
out there. What what are your thoughts on that? Yeah. Uh twofold. One is in in the world
uh and you hear people like Joe Rogan say this. We have a reputation for being
very kind people. Mhm. Online that doesn't exist be for I think
for several reasons. One is because we're painted anything but kind. And two we're often
not kind online. We get online, we've been spit on. So the first thing we do is we just spit first. Mhm. And
and that's the culture online and it's an issue. I think at some point we need to be congruent with how we are in
person and how we are online. We call that peacemaking. And when I say that, a
lot of people have issues with it because to them it sounds like we got to lay down. And I think that's the exact opposite of peacemaking because there's
there's a spectrum. There's you could be a pacifist, which is what most members of the church are and what they do. That's just naturally we see something
that's that's that's that's aggressive or that makes us feel insecure or or
scared even and we just we tuck that away. And then there are those who see that Can I say something about that
please? Yeah. And maybe we talked about this last
time, but see that's part of that niceness culture. Yes. That that is to me
I don't understand how this has happened. Maybe it's our unique history
and being separated in an exodus from the rest of the world to some degree for decades. Um, and and feeling so
desperately like we actually have to put on the right face because of all of the
bad news about us and who we are and the stigma that was placed upon us for so
long that still exists, right? But there's this idea that even amongst
ourselves that we need to be that that niceness and politeness
and and and and I'm going to get slapped in the face by some nice person for
this. They wouldn't do that. But but it's are are these values that are above every other value out there?
No. Right. It's like this is more important than to avoid any type of conflict
than than anything else. And if we can just be nice, then then we're doing what's right. That
is what Christ wants. That is how we are Christlike. And the problem with it is I
think it it in in in a in an online world,
what this to me actually becomes is a mask
for a fear of conflict. Yeah. Right. It's a mask for a fear of conflict that says, "Well, I don't want
to ruffle feathers and I I don't want it." And you know, who does? Nobody wants to. I mean, you know, there are some people who do. I know a couple of
those. There's a few of those. But, uh, if that's the case,
how what I'm trying to ask you is how do you take that that idea and and fit it
into what you're saying is peace I used to be that guy. That was me. I
I love Jesus. And I looked at his example and I just thought, well, I got to turn the other cheek. And I just
turned the other cheek until like that was that's the only thing I could do. But um in my 20s, I really and I'm still
I love Jordan Peterson. I got into him a lot. He just uh to be honest, he taught me how to be a man and I'm grateful for
that. One of the things he said struck me to the core. He said something like uh
a harmless man is not capable of peace. And I realized I'm that guy. I'm
harmless. And I'm I'm not capable of really affecting any change or defending
like my family or my faith. And I decided to make a change. And I realized that somebody who is a peacemaker is
actually capable of not just conflict but great conflict. Very very competent and dangerous. That doesn't mean you
don't have to go to war, right? And I don't think I'm not trying to make this a war analogy. I don't think to defend your faith, you have to
be physically dangerous or attack people, but you have to be able to stand up and tell the truth. And I think
that's the difference. this nice culture, it's not telling the truth because we have feelings and those feelings that we don't express, that's a
lie. And that's the problem. I think that most of us, we're so nice that we start to lie and then we get deep into
this lie until we can't get out. And that's where I was. And I So, I actually made a change in my life. I decided, okay, I'm a worm. I'm harmless. So, I
started jiu-jitsu. And um I'm I'm just shy of a purple belt, which means I'm just starting to not suck.
But, it's been so fun and I love it. And then I started to engage with the things that made me afraid and scared. Not just
in my faith, but especially in my faith, but in other areas of my life. I started to engage with those things so that I
could become more brave. And I do that so that I can be a good father and a good husband and defend my faith and be
a good example. And that's where a peacemaker is. And so you can you can be
this nice pacifist, but it does nobody any good and you're a liar. or you can
wield the truth like a cudgel and beat people over the head with it like a bully, right? And that's kind of the other side of the spectrum. And so we
see people often who are standing up for the faith. That's what they're doing some often times, right? It's like I have the truth, you don't
and if you disagree, you're a liar. And they get really mean about it. And so there's this space in the middle where
you can be you can be competent and capable of great contention or
confrontation, but you wield that appropriately. And there's that that's the space in the middle. Well, if you
actually have that capacity, that's in a sense, it almost is what gives you the skill to master what
you're going through, right? Yeah. I mean, if you don't have the capacity to do that, you're you're
you're it's like drowning and grasping for air instead. And so, but if you're actually
buoyant on the whole situation and you can affect what happens now, I can take
everything and I can say, well, what is the right way to do this? because I have the capacity to choose and and and how
do I handle this situation online. Um, and I'm not saying I'm the best example of this. I am definitely not. I I I put
out a couple of comments this morning that I probably should, but but it's and
one I one I took down and I rewrote it. There you go. Right. I rewrote it. I thought, "Okay,
I'm going to repent on this and I'm going to rewrite this." Um but then there's the idea of again being on the
defensive and I try to think of Jesus and how he lived his life. Yeah. And how he brought truth
um unabashedly he he was saying things he was turning
things on their heads. I mean John the Baptist the precursor the Elias to Jesus
I mean his job was to overthrow the kingdom of the Jews. He stirred the pot
right? That was the his job. He's overthrowing the kingdom of the Jews. Now, how is he doing that? He's not
doing that by the sword. He's doing it by preaching. He's doing it by baptizing
and and inviting people into the the baptismal waters. Um Jesus kind of goes
along those same lines. And he's not I don't see Jesus doing many reaction videos. Again, I'm not saying I'm going
to start doing more of those. I think that that's something to do. You're right, though. But but he's not in a position where he's he's does call
people out. I mean, people don't always remember that, right? He's calling out the Sadducees, Pharisees, the high
priest, the elders, the scribes. He's calling them out and he does it regularly,
right? And but he when he is teaching, he simply is
I have a platform. I'm going to put he's created a platform. I'm going to use
that platform and get this information out to everybody that I can. I'm going
to call others to go and do the same and give the message that's out there. And we are going to talk about the truth
unabashedly. And that doesn't necessarily mean that again you're causing contention. You're
trying to create contention. But in a world that
honestly hates your message, you're going to have conflict.
Yeah, that is going to happen no matter what. And of course, we see what ends up happening with Jesus and the apostles in
the end in the message that they're giving. But they're to me it it's it's
like they're on the offensive in what they're doing. I don't see them
as reactionary in in in how they act. Uh and and
sometimes I feel that apologetics in the church, I think there's a place for it.
Um I just don't know that it's always best. I mean, if you read uh the art of war,
right, you don't ever want to be on in a defensive position. Yeah. And maybe I brought this up before last time we talked, but for example, I
was I just did an interview with John Delin.
And did we talk about this? Yeah, I went and watched it after. Okay. You did great, by the way. And and I'm and I'm and and and going
into it, I'm realizing based on others that have gone on there that are faithful, the position that I'm going to
be in with him for I don't know how many hours.
And and so I I called him back. I said, "I'm I'm not doing this. This is not I'm not going to set myself into a position
where I am always on the defensive." Yeah. And I let him know. I said, "Look, this is going to turn the only way I can do
this in a manner that I think is proper even is I'm going to turn the
tables on you because I won't sit here on a defensive position. I I'm going to
turn the tables on you and and I'm going to have you defend yourself
and I don't really want to do that, right? That that and so, you know, I had called it off and then we talked more
and we laid some guidelines down and and did some other things, right? But do you understand what I'm saying? Yeah, I think you're right. He So, my
experience with this was again in my 20s, I spent a decade just diving into philosophy and theology and it it I
couldn't get enough. It fascinated me. But the deeper I got into that, the more vulnerable I felt in my faith because I didn't understand where my faith fit
amongst all of these ideas. And I felt like maybe I didn't have as strong as a of a position as I thought I did until I
saw Jacob Hansen talk about it. And I realized, holy cow,
like our theology is incredibly grounded. It comes from like it just makes so much sense. And there there are
places in our theology where like we just don't know and we appeal to mystery. But there are pillars in many
other faiths. Their entire faith rests on this. I don't know, right? It's it's just this appeal to mystery and it's
circular and the logic is just unsound and unfounded. But ours is not. It's very grounded and beautiful. And I
watched I watched him in a debate where he he was defending and then he flipped the tables and he started comparing
theologies and I and that's when I realized like oh my goodness we have such strong ground to stand on. So I I
think you're right. I think that the frontline defense because the last
20 years our faith has abdicated the internet to some degree. Uh there are
exceptions. You've done a great job of that being one of the pioneers here. Thank you, by the way. But the rest of
us, we've abdicated that to our detractors. And so, there's this huge vacuum that needs to be filled. And some
of that is just clearing up the misconceptions. And then I think the next line to that is, okay, now how does
this compare to atheism? Now, how does this compare to credle Christianity? And we're starting to see that with Jacob
Hansen and Hayden Carolyn, uh, Restored Truth. Those guys are fantastic. And I think we actually need a ton more of
that. That's like the next evolution. That's where we need to go. Yeah. And I think again that's where where there's a a small piercing light,
that's where that light starts to shine a lot more. And and and it's it's getting the doctrine out there and
contrasting. Yeah. And now on the other hand and and this includes the group that a lot of
the those that would follow Jacob Hansen for example um you have something that interestingly
has has grown in the last several years with the Orthodox church which is the
Orthobros. The Orthobros, right? And and they're like they're dunking on everybody and this is why
we've got the right doctrine, the right church. They've got had this ma I mean massive upswing in male baptism in the
last several years uh because they've gone more conservative and they've gone
more male ccentric and and uh and so they've really uh attracted a lot of a
lot of men over over to that religion. But they're that's their whole thing is to dunk on everybody. That's what they
do. And so I see that also on our end, right, where we've got a lot of guys
that it's just like they just want to get in the battle and dunk on the other person because how can you believe in
the trinity and how is you know and it's blah blah blah blah blah. I had Pastor Jeff in here yesterday and I'm just like and he's like what are you doing? I mean
I you know not me but how why why are they doing this? Because what it does is
you know it pushes people like him off you know away because they're like
nobody wants that. Nobody wants to be attacked. Of course, it's like we've been in this position for two centuries,
but but and it's great show. It's fun to watch. It's a lot of fun to
watch, but uh that's not really peacemaking. No. Right. And and it's
it's I I again, I think that there is a way to be on the offense without having to
try and dunk on everyone. Yeah. I and I think that to some degree we may have cracked the code and it's
not it's not something new. It's some great discovery. It's it's actually something old. It's that we get in this
frame of mind. Here's what I think the issue is. I'm in several groups with our LDS
content creators and I love them. I'm so grateful for their work. I think we have the wrong frame of mind
because we come at it with this, well, I don't want to be an anti-nephel
got slaughtered and so I'm going to stand up like a strippling warrior and I'm going to go to war. And I often see
that thought, which I'm grateful for. However, I think that war is not the
right frame to look at this through. I actually think it's more of an Alma, an amulic experience or an Ammon or a sons
of Mosiah. It's it's a missionary effort and a missionary experience that we
should be having, not a war. Because And here's the thing that they always use words like um they attacked me online or
I was talking with uh um I probably shouldn't even say his name. I was talking with somebody a prominent LDS
content creator and he was just saying that you know this guy is coming after me online. That's like him coming to my
house with a knife and knocking on my door. And I'm like, "No, it's not. This sedentary, obese,
basement dwelling man 700 miles away is not physically attacking you. You are not physically in danger. This is not
war and not threat of physical violence." When it does become that, defend yourself like a strippling warrior. Right? That's when you like
it's all on the table. Get after it. I'm all for that. But when there is a 16-year-old with an
iPhone, right, in in Colorado just throwing out that you guys are the worst
and you're a cult, like that kid, he's not attacking us. There's no physical violence. This is not a strippling warrior situation. This is an Ammon
experience where we need to gather and defend the flocks of the king. And it's just this reframe where we have the opportunity to be a missionary not just
for that kid and maybe even especially not for that kid who's attacking us, but for the thousands of people who will see
that interaction, that's who we're talking to online. And so when we're in these debates, which again I like Hayden
Carroll, I think he does a phenomenal job of this of peacemaking. He he he doesn't attack the person. He's
not humiliating them or making them feel small. He's gracious for their mistakes. We can have these conversations and
still be kind. But then when you watch that, you you just see that contrast. And it's beautiful to see the gospel
represented. And that's what we need to do online. What would Paul be like online?
Well, that's a good question. He would be bold. And I'm for all four
being bold. He would be offensive on the offense. On the offense. Yeah.
Yeah. Not not vulgar calling people names. I don't think he would be throwing out ad hominins.
I I I think that man had a great capacity to be kind and caring, especially to the opposition. He was the
the apostle of the Gentiles. I mean, he went through the the ringer
and he loved Jesus. And I think that's what we need to do. We ultimately need to love Jesus and love our neighbor. And
because of that, we treat them kindly. We give them the gospel to the best of our ability and we defend the gospel and
we compare theologies, but we can do that in a manner that isn't
right. It isn't war. I think that's been my biggest issue. It's not war.
I'm trying to buy into that a little bit. Yeah. Well, tell me I I've been trying to wrestle with it. Tell me what what
struggle do you have with it? Well, here's the struggle that I have. All of the prophets use war as a as a metaphor.
constantly. I mean, you go into Ephesians, right? And I've got the sword of truth and I've got the shield and I've got the helmet and I've got, you
know, it's all the war in heaven is certainly not a physical war. There was no physicality outside of previously
resurrected beings. But, you know, it's but there's a war in heaven and it's a war of ideas. Mhm.
And so I I think I I I mean I know what you're saying and and I I'm almost there
with you, but I I I feel like it it's not a war in the sense that it is
aggression, but it is a can we say a battle. It is a it is a battle of ideas.
Yeah, I'm okay with that. And it's a battle of truth. Yeah. Uh and and I think that that
verbiage gives we have to somehow get on the side of of
not in including wherever possible which is
really everywhere charity. Yeah. Yeah. In all that we're doing and at the same
time have the urgency of battle. I think that's okay. Right. I mean, you've got to that battle
cry, I think, is a is a is a sense of urgency on on what you're doing. And and I don't
think that we have enough of the urgency in the church right now. Uh certainly
not online of of speaking up and speaking out. People are afraid of doing this because they of the response. I get
it. Um, try it a few times. Maybe eventually you won't care as much.
But I think that uh I I that that's all I'm saying is I don't know. I don't quite
Yeah. The the distinction I would make is that I I I'm okay with this.
It it is a battle, right? It's this spiritual battle that's going on. The issue is when we start to see ourselves
as tien and like I just got to go crush this guy's heart and I
I'm going to push back on you again. Okay. So I yeah I agree with that. I I think that I I see I see I see Tiana as
like this special forces gap. Sure. In a physical war. In a physical war defending his family,
but it was a physical war. Yeah. There was threat of violence. They were killing. They were murdering each other. It's okay. So you're you're taking that and
saying we don't need to be a tank online. Is that what you're saying?
Yes. Okay. That's probably the closest we can get to. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. And that but that's how we've been
treating it. We've been treating it as this physical war where they call us a name, so we have to call them a name and
we sink to their level. And I I think that if in general there there are
moments for that, right? There are times when we we do need to be a team. Totally get it. But that's like, you know, 99%
of the interactions online should be missionary work. That's what we want to do. That's what peacemaking is. That's
how that that's the only reason other faiths are going to care about what we have to say. Not because we're the orthobros dunking on people online and
and owning them and setting up these gotchas. I mean that's it's just cheap. It's these cheap winds that I mean it it
doesn't invite the spirit. But when we can do it in a manner that is kind and loving and they can contrast, see the
light versus the darkness, I think that's how we win this battle. Um I think I brought up Paul. Paul's
going out to a whole new group of people, right? He's got this difficult task of
going first and foremost to the synagogues. Wherever he goes in the Greek world, he goes to the synagogues first. He usually gets completely
rejected there. Then he goes out to the pagans and teaches them in a different
manner using language that they can relate to.
And I think that's a lot like going out on the internet, you know, it's it's we are speaking sometimes to people where
it's the same old tropes. It's the same old anti stuff. You know, it's all over there. But there's also
a whole group of people that have never even been exposed to anything
with Latter-day Saints and what our theology is. And maybe they've heard,
you know, oh yeah, you believe Satan is the brother of Jesus, you know, or something like that.
But they really haven't looked at much of anything, which is actually the case with most of them. But so I I kind of
look at Paul like, okay, why what would Paul do online? What what would he do? How is he adapting to this new world and
new language uh in in going out and trying to spread the gospel? What does he need to do?
First of all, again, he has to have a platform. He has to have the platform. You guys
talk about rooftops and and you have to have a rooftop tall enough to reach out to people.
Yeah. to begin with. And he does, right? He's able to build that up. He builds up a
name. People are going to when he when he when he moves from one city to another, people are going to gather and
listen, at least listen to him. Maybe want to throw rocks at him, but they're going to gather and and and listen to
him because he's he's built up a name at that point. But he's working through a
system that is brand new in in terms of uh the audience and the theology
and um you know obviously it's not the technology but but it's it's a brand new
world in a sense that that he's working through and I think we need to understand how is he doing this? How
does he have success? Um he has a lot of push back.
Yeah. I mean, he goes he goes through a lot, but he does have a lot of success
in in in being able to to get out and and he takes different approaches and and and whatnot. What we're talking
about, okay, let me ask you this. We're talking about not being on the defensive all the
time. How do we go on the offense? How can we move? And I'm talking about these
stages. How can we move from not and again I want to back up. I think that reaction videos are great because
they're going to create clarity and contrast. That's really really important. We need a lot of that clarity
and contrast. Um but we also need to eventually move to a point where we are on the offense
and we are Paul. Yeah. And and we are putting out there what
we're putting out. How do we do that? Yeah. The the Holy Rebellion. Travis and I actually started this because we asked ourselves the same question. We we were
reading the New Testament. Uh it was come follow me a couple years ago and and we were reading Paul and that guy he's the coolest and we just asked what
would Paul do today and we came to the conclusion he'd get on the tallest tower he could which is social media
and he would testify Jesus Christ and so that's what we decided we would do. What we discovered is that
most people, at least in North America at this point, don't care about devotional content or the market is
saturated perhaps. That's that's the content the church produces, right? And and then there are some really big
members of our faith who create content like that. And beyond that, it's just nobody cares. Nobody watched it. Felt
good to do it. Nobody cared. It wasn't until we started to do these reaction videos that anybody cared. And and and I
think it feels defensive, but I think that's a step in the right direction, clearing up misconceptions. But then
what we started to do is more uh offensive videos where we're taking
world views and then contrasting our world view with it. So for example, you get atheists all the time who will
attack credle Christianity and say things like, well, you know, if God created you from nothing and then
created hell, he created you to not he created me to not believe in him, right?
And then he created me to go to hell, that God is a monster. That's the conclusion they come to. And I actually
can't blame them. And so I can put a video right next to that that says we have a solve.
You consented to come here. we existed before this and you said you wanted to come here to receive a body and become
like Jesus. So like that's one piece of the puzzle that just solves that worldview for atheists and what we're
doing is we're contrasting the atheist worldview um versus Creole Christianity versus us to give people the option to
to pick us. That's a start. I think debates is really where this needs to go on on the world stage at some point. But
we're working our way up to that slowly. What do you think? What do we got to do? Debates. Yeah. I'm not a debater. I mean, I I
would be very comfortable doing it. Um I don't I just chose early on that that
was not going to be my my thing. Uh I love that others do it. I think it's
important. I think it's a format that if run correctly can diffuse contention.
Yeah. uh but bring to light positions in a controlled uh format that allows
people not to be talked over, that allows for clarity uh through Q&A. Um so I think it's
important. I think that we need as much of that out there as as as we can possibly get. Um
and but but at the same time even your example of what you gave about
um you know the atheists and and credle Christianity that as well without a
debate is just a concept that's put out there that says hey here's clarity on
this situation here's our theology here's a solve. I think that's every bit
as as uh effective
as as a debate would be. Maybe it is. It's way easier. It's way easier. Sure. But at the you
know, but the debates again, they they do they're going to get a larger audience. They're going to have a large platform. And um it's not even that,
you know, I don't care as I go out and I see see some of these guys go running the debate. It's not that I care if they
win or lose even necessarily. There's a lot of ways to consider how a debate is won or lost.
Yeah. Um and tactics that can be used in in in in that. What matters to me is that what
has changed already is that we have a seat at the table. Yeah.
And that is incredible. That is absolutely incredible.
And it only happened because of online. What what of being being able to be online? You
you know what's cool? Quick thought there. Uh we we made a video. Do you know who George Jenko is?
No. He's he's he's a he's a Protestant Christian with an enormous following. Something like three million on YouTube.
He's got over a million on Instagrams. I don't know what it is across the platforms, but maybe five or six million.
And uh I made a video about him kind of coming after him a little bit. We were kind, but we went after him a
little bit. And he responded. He's like, and I invited him at the end to have a conversation with him with us and he responded in the comments. He says,
"Yeah, let's set it up." And I don't know that that will happen. We'll see. But I think you're right.
By defending ourselves, but also being offensive, being on the offense, and
asserting our worldview and how it compares to others, it's getting us a seat at the table. So, at least in part,
it's working. People are seeing it. Yeah. If we are only defensive, then we are always out on the outskirts.
Yeah. Right. And and I and I think that that we've been that too long.
Yeah. We we've been in that position for way too long, honestly. And I hope this
isn't heresy, but I think the church is still in a position of reaction and defense all the time.
We have the gem, the pearl of great price.
The pearl of great price. We have got the incredible truth. Yeah. that people need. People need this
and those plain and precious things and those things that seem so strange to
others sometimes, I think is what we should be leaning into without having to just be on the
defensive. And the more we can do that, the more we shed a light on the contrast to
everything else. Yeah. And uh if we're not doing it, you know,
it again, I think that being on the defensive on this to to some degree can is is a way to do it, but it's
the the more we can do that from a position of strength. Yeah. The the more we're going to get the seat
at the table, the more we're going to get an audience, the more we're going to have credibility,
the more people are going to listen. And I see that as synonymous with peacemaking. That's what I think it is.
And what you're describing is uh like the tactic that John Dyn has used for years, forever is sitting in his tower
throwing stones at people who have been unwilling to defend themselves or throw stones back.
And as soon as you flip the table and the world view, it you ask, well, okay, so this all
sucks. Let's grant you that. What do I replace it with? Atheism? Nihilism?
How does that affect my children and my family? And you see what that worldview does to people. Like it just you can
attack a worldview, but if you look at the fruits of it, the fruits of those who adhere to the principles found in
the Book of Mormon are generally really, really good. Those who follow the the principles that the the prophets teach
generally have really good lives, successful lives by all measures. And what do you have to offer in return? And
when that is examined closely, it's nothing. It's a sham. It's like you you
have nothing better. nothing better to offer. And and to your point, I the the church has not been uh defensive or
offensive really at all. I don't think they've done much in that space. And I actually wonder if maybe they don't need
to because they're a salvific organization. That's their job and they stick with
that job. But, you know, maybe that's what we need to do. We need to be that part. The members of the church need to
be that piece that defends and presents the world view to the world. I 100% agree with that. 100% agree with
that. All right. Lastly, what what is the solution for toppling this
narrative that's out there, this this great accusatory fog, the miss of
darkness? um how can we be more on the offense and
how you know what what do we say to individuals
that are faithful members of the church on how to be involved? Not everybody wants to be a content creator.
Yeah. But but how do you get the masses? We have so many covenant
keeping people that want to do what is right. They want to make a difference. And and if we can just show them channel
channeling this, this is how you can do it. I I think we'd have millions.
Yeah. That that would be able to do it. And not everyone's going to grab a camera and and and say something, but um
how do we involve so many people? Yeah. This may or may not air in time, but February 7th, we have the
Peacemakers Conference and or the Peacemaker Summit rather. That's what we're there to do. Uh what we want to do
is get the whole goal is to get a billion views collectively among content
creators, LDS content creators. And the whole idea is just that when somebody logs in to social media and they search
Mormon or Church of Jesus Christ, the first 20 videos they see are going to be detractors and critics of our faith. And
so when somebody wants to learn about us, that's who they're learning about us from. And it's an issue. It's a huge
issue that we have to solve. But if we can get people involved, it's not that hard for us to get a billion views. And
if we can get that, then we we can put our videos up front so that when people search for us, they learn about us from
us. And it's not that everybody needs to be a content creator, and not everybody should. Like, there are definitely
people who shouldn't. And you don't need to be there. Although there are some who should
and some that who will be really, really good at it, but we need people in the comments
defending the faith, not attacking people, right? Not going to war necessarily. You don't need to beat people over the head, but you can defend
the faith in the comments. And if you don't want to do that, all you have to do is like. If you just like a video, a faith promoting video, you can send it
to your sister or to your mom or whoever. What that does is that tells the algorithm to push that message
further. It's the easiest thing in the world to be a missionary online today because all you have to do is push that
little heart button and that just says, "Okay, keep that going. Keep that message out there." And so, literally
everybody who can be engaged online should be. And and that doesn't mean you need to spend more time online, but the
time that you are spending right now online, just use it effectively. Just go find faithful content and promote it in
whatever way you can. That that's it. That's all we have to do. It's easy. Christian, appreciate that. Um it's
going to be very interesting to see where all this goes in the next several years. You know, we we've come so far in
the last five. What are the last next five years? How is AI going to be involved with all of this? How do we use
it? Um, but it's it's I think that for
the church, the internet has given us for members of
the church, the internet has given us such an opportunity to be involved and to in ways we could never do before. And
I think that people need to stand up and say something or do something
and and be involved. We uh excuse the word, but we could be an army
we could be an army of dogooders online. Yeah. That are and again I I it's not just
missionary work. It it's creating goodness. It's changing lives
and uh it it's it's helping to promote the truth. So hopefully just this video
here will have some people react by saying, "Yeah, okay. I can do this. I can get into the comments section. I can I can hit the
likes and maybe I'll produce some Instagram shorts. Yeah, there you go. One last thought.
There's I was reading maybe I told you this last time, but I was reading in I think it's Abraham and God talks about
in the last days he will sweep the earth the earth like a flood of with truth and
righteousness. And I literally think that we're living that right now. Today is the day. Now is the time for that to happen because there are places I we've
got maybe 100,000 missionaries which is incredible. There are places they can't go and people they can't talk to.
There's seven 8 billion people. If you do that math, it's it's an impossibility.
But if I can get like we we can literally get into every single pocket in in the entire world, 7 8 billion
people. We can get into their pocket today in languages that we don't speak because AI can translate it in places
that we can't travel to because their governments won't allow, but we can get in their pocket and preach the gospel of Jesus Christ. Like, it's happening. It's
right now. And we It's so cool that we get to be a part of it. It's exciting. It's really, really exciting. Christian, thanks so much.
Appreciate it. Thanks, Greg.