Are We Sending Missionaries Who Aren't Ready? feat. Tess Frame

A Third of Missionaries Who Come Home Early Do So Because of Mental Illness It's not worthiness anymore, it's dopamine Is Another "Raising of the Bar" Coming? Can You Survive If We Take Your Phone Away?" — The addiction nobody's screening for before the MTC What If Your Son Doesn't Want to Serve a Mission? Are We Sending Missionaries Who Aren't Ready? "He'll Never Be a Bishop" — What members actually say to the wife of a non-RM

 Raw Transcript:

Because I can tell you right now, there are plenty of people who did not serve missions, who have a great relationship with the Savior, and who did serve missions, who have no relationship at
all. I've made some posts on my Instagram about this, and you'd be shocked the things that members say to the wife of someone who did not serve a
mission. Well, yeah, you know, he'll never be a bishop or and I'm like, what?
Why do a third of new missionaries who return early return for mental illness issues? Is there another raising the bar
coming for missionaries? In other words, a high standard to get people on a mission. Can you serve without a phone?
Can you get rid of your phone? The dopamine from from scrolling consistently or pornography, the dopamine from pornography, the dopamine
from substances. We are creating an environment for kids where they are constantly being fed with dopamine
addiction. What if your son doesn't want to serve a mission? Is there still a strong stigma for those who don't? With the explosion of missionaries right now,
1 minutea record high with Latter-day Saints, these are questions that are very pertinent. We bring on Tess Frame, a very influential Latter-day Saint
influencer with over 70,000 followers on Instagram, and she's got some great insights into this topic. Now, this episode is brought to you by Gospel on
the Nile and go and do travel. Gospel on the Nile. We still got some spots for October 27th through November 6th. this
coming October in 2026 and then in 2027, February 16th to 26th and March 2nd to
12th. Fantastic trip bucket list type of thing. You'll learn more about the temple in Egypt than you will anywhere
else except in the temple itself. Go to quickmedia.com, scroll to the top to trips and events and scroll down to
Gospel on the Nile. Would love to see you there. Here we go.
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So, Tess, he didn't serve a mission.
2 minutesWhen you hear that, what's the face you picture people making?
Well, the the face [music] I picture the person making is, "Oh, that's okay." Just kind of a general nervousness.
uh a little bit of a um nervous about handling it wrong. Like people don't want to offend each other, but they also there is kind of an
undercurrent of like oh he took an alternative path. You know what how do we react to that? Um and but when you
first said what's the face that you picture I was thinking my husband because my husband did not serve a mission. [laughter] Okay.
But then you say, "What's the picture the face you picture them making?" It's a nervous one, right? So, so what you know, I I think
about this a lot because it seems like they've the church has gone through different levels of emphasis on mission. Like
3 minutesthere was a while where we didn't hear like a lot of missionary get out there and go on a mission from the pulpit.
More recently, a lot of that has changed from the age to just the messaging.
Yeah. Um where does that balance lie in terms of okay well men for example young men are supposed to based on a
priesthood responsibility are supposed to serve a mission but then if they don't then you've got the reaction and the shame and and and this culture that
you know that exists uh what is the balance on this how do you deal on both sides of that well do you remember in the '9s when I
was a child I was nowhere I wasn't near serving a mission age and I wasn't like peers with people going on missions but the raising of the bar
happened with under President Hinckley's direction. People were going out who were very obviously not ready and it was
causing problems in the field. It was causing problems for the leaders. It was causing problems for the people investigating who were they who they
were supposed to be teaching. You know, these are supposed to be trusted essentially tr trusted priesthood leaders and stewards for these people.
But um when they're not ready and they're not living the law or they're not um they don't have any kind of
foundational fundamental understanding of the gospel or testimony of the gospel, there's some failures here.
There's some there's failures previously that led to this, but then also this itself is a failure.
So the raising of the bar in the '90s was a kind of a devastating thing because it meant not everyone who thinks they're going to go is going to go.
We're we're raising the standard here.
We're going to make it harder. And so I think that was a period in time where uh people realized, oh, we need to we need
to either get really okay with the idea that some of these boys are not going to serve missions or we need to get really okay preparing them better. And I think
that the way as a general church culture that that we moved was that we're working really hard to prepare our boys better. And I say boys meaning at that
in that area era the boys going out on missions was the emphasis more than the sisters. sisters were going but I don't
think sisters were causing the problems like [laughter] um now
there's such an emphasis on anyone who wants to go can go and
I don't I don't personally have any kind of knowledge about whether the issues people are encountering are worthiness
issues or primarily mental health or physical health or I don't know what the reasons are but I personally
would say and sense that another raising of the bar may be coming because
we're seeing a lot of kids struggling with mental health in the field. Sorry to say kids. I know you're not kids. I know you're adults. It's just that I'm
so much older than you. [laughter] It's hard to get out of that mindset. A lot of these elders and sisters are entering the mission field unprepared.
And it might be in a different way than in the 90s. In the 90s, it might might have been more about worthiness and now it's much more about mental preparation.
Are you resilient enough? Are you like, are you super addicted to dopamine? Can you survive if we take your phone away
from you? Um, can we survive if we remove you from the house of your parents? like there are these
sensitivities that that these young adults have through this transitionary period that is making it harder for them to thrive in the mission field.
Do you think that that change I mean you're talking about one is a a technological change a phone totally and the other is you know removing
people from their home from their parents that sounds more like a cultural parenting change.
Yes. I mean, you know, there also could be addiction issues. There could be is there unresolved chassity issues.
There's any number of reasons that people might be unready. Um, ranging from technology
to culture to family culture to, you know, personal choices. Um, and I just wonder
when when these young adults get out into the field and then they come home because they are struggling so bad, the
the stigma that has been formed around not staying out and not [clears throat] completing a full two-year mission, not
completing a full two-year mission. Um they're they're receiving they're either
receiving so much negative feedback from the members around them that that it is a real struggle a real spiritual battle
to maintain your testimony through that or they personally have internalized
such a deep link from selfworth to did I finish my mission and if if it's a failure if they feel it's a failure then
there's no place for them at church. Um, yeah. So, do you [clears throat]
do you think that there is more of a stigma on the men, the young men, than there is on the young women?
I mean, there's so many more. I was just looking about about I think this is a year old but over a 4-year period at BYU
as an example just a sample uh the percentage of young women that
went on a mission and were at BYU quadrupled in four years.
So you've got a much larger the estimates are somewhere in in about 30 low 30s percent you know about a third
of all missionaries are are sister missionaries now is that rising also then I mean if you're going to have more and more sister missionaries is that
stigma going to rise higher and higher with them also as it would be with the young men I would say yes I would think yes and
the the pressure may not be coming from their parents like it was in the 90s there you know from the 70s to the '90s
I think that there really truly was and probably you could even get people to articulate it. There was a strong
cultural uh belief that like if you don't serve a mission, you're not coming back into my
house. If you don't serve a mission, you're I won't pay for your college. Um there was this extreme pressure around
it because um I think they just members really viewed it as a it's a hinge point
from youth to adulthood. It's a really ideally it is a very developmental
period for somebody's faith and testimony. And we want that for our kids. We want that as parents.
But what we do if we've idolized the mission, if the mission has become the idol, we have now placed our kids
serving a mission before our kid having a strong testimony. And the reason that I am excited to talk about this to you
today is my husband did not serve a mission and he has stayed in the church and for the last we've been married uh
like almost 18 years. We are probably probably 17 out of the 18 years he has been in the youth program in some some
capacity or another in with the young men and I think they keep putting him in there. I I don't think this I I'm
certain of this he is first of all he connects with the youth great. I think they're choosing, you know, men in their 40s and younger because there's a great
bond, a great example connection there, but also to have a a a strong faithful
leader in the church who didn't serve a mission and didn't feel that their only two choices were I serve a mission or I
leave the church. Um to have an example of somebody who took that alternative path and was able to maintain a
testimony through it is very valuable because we're seeing how much heartbreak these young adults go through
and and even depressions that they go through when they come home early and they feel that they've failed and they feel that their their ward members are
judging them or um you know or you're afraid that they are or you're just aware of the awkwardness of it all.
People don't know what to say. Um, and so I I think that it is very
valuable to while I'm not extremely pro alt experience in general. Um, I think there's a lot of value to
following the path that's that you know that God has designed for us like getting married in the temple and having a family and
living living you know men provide presside and protect and women nurture and raise the families and um we have
you know in that traditional in that traditional sense I'm not for the alt experience but in this um
I'm sorry I lost my train of thought in this instance I feel that it is really helpful to have somebody representing an
alternative path that still leads back to Christ and still encourages development and change and and testimony
and trial uh without it involving leaving the church and coming back. I'm sorry.
Yeah. So, it's not just black and white, right? So, it's not a matter of well, you're either going to go on a mission or you're going to leave the church. What are the options? Yeah.
And and and there's uh some that choose not to. Maybe they're not ready or whatever the reasons might be. They they don't want
to be going. I did see a a a stat on a survey. It shows actually th of those
that return early from their missions also. And I you know I wonder let me ask you this first. Do you think that
uh the stigma is stronger for those that never choose to go or for those that return early?
Oh, I don't know. Um it's different. My the only experience on that that I could speak to for someone who just didn't go
is my husband and he's almost 20 years separated from the missionaries that are going out now. Um
I can speak from experience and say in young women's and maybe things have changed. I'm I'm sure things have changed in the last 20 years, but it was
very um promoted that like you ponder the type of person that you want to uh
marry and spend eternity with and think of the qualities and traits and and milestones that they've reached. And them having served a mission was
definitely vocalized and prioritized, you know, in into us as young women in my generation.
I remember making a list and I think a lot of the women listening probably could be like,
"Ah, yeah, the list. Oh, oh yes, the list of traits that we were looking for." And
of course, it was, you know, has to be tall, has to be handsome, um has to be a returned missionary. And I got tall and
handsome, but I did not get a returned missionary. And I wondered how that would turn out for me when I was
[clears throat] at the ripe age of 19 getting married.
And we did and we did get married in the temple. So um like I said again the worthiness was not an issue. It was just
a choice that he made to not go. And my parents were like, "Okay, I know we know you're making adult decisions. Like, we
know that you're practicing your wisdom and you're you're growing and you feel that this is the right person for you.
We just want you to be aware like, you know, like just think about this." And I don't think they were doing it in any kind of prejudiced way. It was just to
bring to my awareness that like, you know, a mission does help you develop in a lot of ways. and our singles ward
bishop who um was you know prepping us to go through the temple together had also not served a mission. And I
think it was very very helpful for my husband to be counseledled and mentored at that stage in his life by another man
who again in in the same position had a different path but stayed worthy and
kept a testimony and was now a leader and was um you know a a successful man.
He had you know five or six children. He had a business. He owned a home. he, you know, all these um success markers for
just a happy and stable life. Um and I think it was a good example to my husband. And in one of his interviews, one of his final interviews before he
was getting his temple recommend, the bishop asked my husband, "Okay, I agree with you getting married in the
temple, but the spirit is telling me right now that I have to invite you one more time.
The mission is an option if you choose it." He was 22 at the time. So the bishop just was like, "One more time, the spirit wants me to offer this to
you." And Conrad, my husband, was like, "Thank you. I'm going to marry her."
[laughter]
And just was like, "I I've got two good paths in front of me. I'm choosing the one that I want to go down." And um not
serving a mission in your in your young adult young adulthood uh does not mean that you won't serve a mission. I think
a lot of us forget that there are other ways that we serve missions. In fact, as official missionaries, there are other ways, but um just that something to consider there.
What what was so so let me get into your head a little bit on that. So what you were you were very young at the time,
but you had the list and so what did you consider with that?
Does was that ever an issue for you? I mean, were you thinking, well, he hasn't gone and I don't know if that's a good thing. I mean, what was going through your head?
Um, I think I I think I did have a wisdom at a young age that maybe other people don't always have at that same
age. I do think I considered things like we, like I said, we met at church. We met on the stand. [laughter] We were
giving talks on the same Sunday. So, we're up there and we're whispering and just kind of getting like, "Hi, nice to meet you." Um, and we both gave talks
and we both were, you know, you're supposed to give, there were only two talks scheduled for a whole sacrament meeting in singles and we were both like, we both gave a 10-minute talk and
18 minutesso there's like left and we're just like, well, what do you want to talk about? You know, so meeting at
church, um, the first thing I do really is see him bear his testimony on the pulpit. So, I felt as I got to know him,
I felt really confident in his security in the gospel and in his testimony. And I saw
I saw his work ethic. I saw his willingness to um like build a business, build a life for us as we went. And you
know, I in hindsight, I see I see that I saw those things. I don't know that I could have articulated it at that age,
but I do think that the spirit really does work with you and and give you those impressions. So, for me, him not
serving a mission was not really a dealbreaker. It really wasn't even something I was like, "Oh, well, should I really think about it?" Because he
didn't serve a mission. It just didn't really matter to me.
19 minutesWhat do you think uh about the age change for young women going to 18?
Is that is that something that because every every new uh policy change, right, brings brings
these positives and then maybe like some negatives. So, if you're a young man or a young woman, both now, and you're just
coming out of high school, you've already got a decision coming right at you right away. Yeah.
You're a senior in high school and you've already got the decision. Now, of course, you could put it off a year if you want, right?
But again, the stigma and the pressure maybe from peers and from parents or bishops or whoever else, what what what do you think about that?
Is that is that something you see with the young women now in your calling now? Is that a a pressure that they feel?
I do think they feel it probably between each other like amongst themselves as a group. Um because
20 minutesif you've got like a if you've got, you know, a friend group of 15 a seminary class of 15 to 20 kids and and they're pretty much all preparing to go on a
mission and you're the one out of 20 to 25 to I don't know even in some areas of the world maybe 40 50 kids. Uh there's
there's pressure there and no one even has to say anything. No one even has to say you're not going. It's just that you're aware of the fact that 40 of
these kids are planning to go and you're the only one that's not. That's pressure and no one's no one's even telling you
you're making the wrong choice. Um I think there is there's an adventurous spirit to going on a mission. There is like wow, we're going to go where are we
going to go? What what language are we going to learn? we're going to meet so many people. Um there's less I think maybe a little bit less
foresight into how hard it's going to be. They just get you just when you're 18, you can't comprehend Yeah.
what what kind of refiner's fire you're walking into. Um but and what kind of work is going to be
required of you. You just cannot comprehend until you're in it. And I think that that also is very jarring for a lot of people. But I think that the
sisters, the pressure that the sisters are feeling is probably mostly from that demographic. I don't think the parents
are pushing the kids uh as much as they were in like the 70s to 90s. [laughter]
I think it's it's interesting because there's there's a couple data points that are I think influential with the
these decisions for the church. You know, for example, one is that young more young women have been leaving the church and and so and they've been they they've
tracked it down to the age of 18 and it's yeah, okay, well, as soon as high school's over, maybe some of your friends have left on a mission, uh
whatever it might be, there is a a big change. It's actually been happening for decades, but it's it's peaked at this
point. And so maybe that's a something the church is saying, hey, go out on a mission, gain a stronger testimony, go
out and serve, and and maybe that's a better option. The other is marriage dropping, which is happening outside of
the church obviously as well. And so you're coming back earlier and and you've now got a hopefully a a base of
going out for women for 18 months and maybe coming back with more experience and and then maybe there's a higher chance of getting married. I I these are
the discussions I'm hearing about interesting that are happening. Uh what what are your thoughts on that? Um, I I can
absolutely see that they get them out younger because it gives them an opportunity to have this really really
deep uh just full full body, full spirit, sensory, spiritual immersion.
Um, and and really throw them into the deep end and and test their faith. like not not that the church is testing their
faith, but that it gives the the young women a chance to test their own faith and really kind of make those decisions
and gain some wisdom from that. Um, I think that there's also education benefits. I think there are some benefits to delaying going to a
university. [laughter] Now, I I actually agree with that completely.
I think when we are so impressionable at 18 and 19, some of these pervasive ideologies can just we are just little
sponges, you know, when we're 18. And um I think giving almost I don't I don't know if you ever grew up going to like
EFY or any of those summer experiences that were just so it's so brief, but it's so immersive. It's such a
spiritual experience and you come back with this spiritual high that you've really never felt before. At least that was my experience. Um I imagine having
having not served a mission, let me say I imagine a mission to be that obviously times like infinity that because you're
you're it is your life. It's not just your week. It is an entire life and language. You start if you learn another
language, you think and dream in that other language. Your whole vocabulary is based around faith. You don't learn
medical vocabulary. you know, you're learning how to teach someone about God in another language. Um, and I imagine that is
think of the neural pathways that are formed um during that impressionable period when your brain is so plastic.
You're not you're not fully developed yet. You're not fully developed until you're like 25 or 26. So, you're still from a from a maturity standpoint, you're still adolescent kind of.
Mhm. And you're so plastic in your brain.
It's so uh formable. It's so um moldable and you're having these experiences and forming these neural pathways and it's
giving you this opportunity to really deepen your own testimony, learn how to teach, learn how to serve. Um sort of
protecting you from more worldly uh habits and um
uh habits is a good word. Habits is a good word.
Yeah. You're you're in Young Women's and and one so another stat about a third of all
missionaries that return early return because of mental illness issues, mental health. [clears throat] What What can be done
from the church's side of things, from parent side of things to help prepare?
Are are we having too many missionaries go and putting too much pressure on them to go when they're not ready? Is there something else that can be done to help
prepare youth so that they are more ready to to go on a mission?
Okay, without knowing the the root of the mental health issues that these people are experiencing, my guess would
26 minutesbe that the vast majority of them are related to dopamine overdose. that they come into the field and they are either
addicted to a a substance, pornography or just scrolling like addictive phone use and they do not know how to cope without
that device. Um, so I think as someone who has gone through uh addiction detox,
I almost think there needs to be a detox period. Like throwing them into the MTC and hoping they just get right to work
might not be the most gentle way [laughter] to help them kind of heal from that. And I think that it it's not because the
church isn't sympathetic to these issues. They obviously are trying to catch up to whatever issues the the
young adults are experiencing, but I'm try Can you tell I'm trying so hard not to say kids? [laughter] Um, [gasps]
so I I do think there might just be an awareness issue that like we know that we know they're so used to being on their phones. They're so used to being
on social media. They're so used to having access to friends and girlfriends or boyfriends and all these
relationships just got severed. But it's not just that like cuz these relationships were also severed in the '90s. Not severed, but like you're you're removed from them. You're not
talking to them as regularly or in the same capacity. Now, um it compared to the '9s, we weren't
talking to our friends constantly. We weren't scrolling something constantly in the '9s. We weren't having literally
constant input and constant entertainment being shoveled into our brains every waking moment of the day.
So that transition I think might have been easier and the with along with the raising of the bar comes like a higher standard and a personal uh personal
drive and ambition to actually be there and succeed. Mhm.
Now we've got this constant dopamine flow. And when that is removed, we go
through a drug detox. It's a chemical in your brain that your brain has adapted to having at a high level. And that's
not the baseline level. The baseline level should be here, but this becomes the baseline level. And now when we drop below that, we don't know how to cope. We go into
full body depression. Like people have physical symptoms from this. there's literal changes in the brain from from
these addictions. So, I think a big part of it is considering that even if it's not a it's not a chastity issue, it's
not a moral issue. They're not they're not necessarily addicted to pornography or drugs, but there is a detox that needs to happen. That is me speaking
from experience. not not I'm not a substance abuser but I had a medical uh
trauma a medical induced addiction that I had to really heal from and it gave me a lot of insight to how the
brain works and recovers from that kind of addiction and how you have to manage yourself in the in the months and years that
follow. Um and your phone is absolutely part of that you know. So would you recommend something like what what like a 90-day pre-m mission time period to
say I'm giving this up this early. I don't just I have got to be ready. This is because you can I mean I can tell you
from being on a mission it is something and I was very ready to go but still I mean you're again you're dropped
into a brand new world. The the work schedule is rough. You've got people, you don't know anybody, and now you're
also dealing with this this dopamine addiction, right? So, so now throw that on top of everything else. That that's pretty tough.
Yeah.
So, so do we do you just say, "Hey, maybe there ought to be something churchwide that gets started just saying, okay, 90 days before departure
date or something. Let's get I'm hesitant to say that it needs to be churchwide because I don't think
this is a majority issue. Um I do think this is definitely something that the parents should be watching. I think parents of of kids pre sorry young
adults preparing to go out on missions should really be um and and really you should be teaching your kid from the moment you put a phone in their hands.
You should be teaching them very very actively how to control the desire to check it all the time. and how to set
boundaries, personal boundaries, and um keep those boundaries with yourself. And that that is uh we think of integrity as
like how we behave in ways that affect other people. Do you put your shopping cart back or are you going to let it run into the car and it doesn't matter cuz
you weren't there. That's integrity. But so is keeping a promise to yourself, keeping a boundary you've set around your phone use. Are you bringing your phone into your room late at night? Are
you scrolling till 3:00 a.m.? these bad bad habits and bad patterns that we form are all part of that. So, I'm hesitant
to say there needs to be also 90 days, Greg. 90 days. That seems very long.
[laughter]
I I'm curious to know what the stat would be on on the missionaries that really struggle with this, men and women. How long does that depression
last? And are they leaving before it's over? Can they is it is it just a set window? And there's really, you know,
there's a fairly consistent range. Like maybe it's maybe it's um 20 to 40 days for most people, but they only make it
today like 22 and they're like, I can't take it anymore. I got to go.
Um but if we knew like I promise the worst of this will be over in in 15 more days in in three more weeks, you know.
Um so I I would be curious to know the information there because I'm sure all of that needs to be considered before we
know. I I guess I'm the habit thing makes sense. I I just think that okay, if I've finally gotten over this and then two days later I'm off to the MTC,
right? It's like, okay, so I'm just thinking 90 days or something number I just threw out there, right? And I'm just pulling for some stats also from Jonathan Height. I don't know if you
follow Jonathan Height at all, but he's he really is on the forefront of this whole issue with social media and and youth and the addiction and trying to
get schools to not allow Yeah. uh phones in in school and in K to 12 and and uh you know because it has
become it's it is uh sound social science now. Yeah.
To say that that a phone for someone especially under especially 16 years of age causes harm, right? It causes mental
distress. It causes problems. It causes social anxiety because of the likes and and and the replies and etc with social media.
It is dangerous and maybe 90 days is too long. I don't know. But I just it's just a thought. What what do you do to prepare to go on a mission? Is that something that could help you out?
No, it it is. A phone putting a phone in a developing in the hands of a person with a developing brain is a dangerous
33 minutesdangerous thing. Um it's it's you know think of somebody who's exposed to a drug at a young age. Your brain forms
and finishes developing around that addiction and and it changes and a lot of times your brain it's very very if
it's possible it's very difficult to teach your brain how to function well without that thing for the remainder of your life. Not to make it sound
hopeless, but I just think parents should be very aware of this from a young age in and and I'm not just
talking to make missions easier on your kids. I'm talking for lifelong success.
Um control, self-control with devices and phones and anything that is going to overdose your dopamine dopamine. So it
it's, you know, device- based things, video games, pornography, uh but even binge watching TV. Um, and then also things that are not based on screens.
So, um, anyway, I I had a thought and I lost it. We'll keep going.
Unplugging. That's the thing. It's it's can you unplug for a while. I just went got back from a men's retreat and that was one thing I I mean it's I I kept
saying to my wife is that we're getting ready for it. I'm like maybe this is just a stupid policy because I didn't want any phones, you know, around during
the time. You know, I've got guys that are CEOs and, you know, they've got businesses to run and and but I stuck with it. I'm like, "No, just just unplug
for three days. Just just unplug." I mean, if you need to go back to your cabin or whatever and at night and reply on emails, fine. But it it does make such a difference.
It does. Just unplug for a little while.
And you were saying like is there going to be you know what would you know just uh pondering a possible solution a 90-day detox period prior to going to
the MTC and but then you just finished and then you go to the MTC and you just go under this enormous change and it's
it's stressful like a big change like that on your brain and body is very stressful. You've never really
been independent in that capacity before. you've never walked into a room of like 400 strangers and you got to you
got to find people and make friends and you got to talk to strangers and talk to people and that's hard. That's really a hard and stressful thing and I think
having a phone and and developing social habits around phone use also is going to make that harder um because we're not
developing those social skills on the same level. So what do you think about dating with this now with with women so many women going
out on a mission? I mean, when I was dating, I didn't even think twice like is am I looking for a return missionary?
That was not the world. I'm a lot older than you, too. I didn't that was not even a thought.
But I remember thinking after being married, I kind of wish that my wife would have gone on a mission just because there's a certain thing I I
it's like there's a certain I don't know there's a there's there's that whole experience of independence to some degree. There's an experience of
gospel knowledge. um richness of experiences and the spirit and and and but you know that what what do you think
how do you think that works in dating now? You and I are not in that world anymore, but it's no you know what you've got you you've got
you know like you say I mean you've got some men that have not gone on missions.
You've got some women most women that still don't go on missions. Um does that has that changed at all? Is that is that
where do you you think the stigma would be the strongest would be in the YSA ws?
Um I I kind of think for it's so hard to say I'm so far removed from that
demographic now. It's hard to speak for that but I would think that it's it's possible that that that standard goes
both ways now that it's not um just the girls holding that standard for the boys like it was in our day. I think there
has been a fairly significant cultural shift around the lowering of the age for the girls that um when we were growing
up it was 21 and it was kind of like you can go when you're older if a better prospect hasn't come along by then
and so there was a little bit of there was a stigma around women serving missions not not serving missions and I
think that that is so different now um part of it is the age change part of it is just that there is it's it's much
more of an adventure. I think people really think of it as such an adventure that you get to go on. It's very romantic mentally to like, oh my gosh,
I'm going to travel the world. I'm going to I'm going to teach the gospel. I'm going to serve. I'm going to learn a language. I'm going to meet people. I might meet my husband. You know, so we
don't have that stigma towards the women. Uh that that like it's all the sister missionaries are the weird ones, you know? Like [laughter]
I'm sorry to say that. I don't personally believe that, but I think that that was a cultural mindset. Yeah.
Decades ago. Now, I do think it's possible that that stigma can go both ways. Meaning, like is are people saying, "I will only marry a returned
missionary in both directions." Um, it's very possible because it is so culturally widespread now. It is almost
expected that you go and if you don't go or if you don't serve a full term or
even sadly in some cases if you serve a service mission instead of a prolighting mission um is something wrong with you
you know there's I think that there is stigma there uh I don't know you know um this is a a phrase that has
been on my mind as we've studied Old Testament all year is that Israel is idol prone And we are Israel. [laughter] And wait, Israel is what?
Idol prone. Oh, idolone.
Israel returns to idols again and again and again. And all through the Old Testament, Jehovah is just like, "Please, [clears throat] I beg you, put the idols down.
I will show you that I am your God. I will do anything that you, you know, everything that you think that God will do for you, I will do tenfold." And um
it just it's so it's such a problem that it's comical. It's cartoonishly problematic for the Old Testament
Israelites. And what I have learned is we are Israel still and idols. We love
idols. And we love our idols. I mean like yeah this is an idol but also your fitness habits are your idol.
Serving a mission is an idol. like we have to it's just what do you put above a a healthy relationship with the savior?
Do you prioritize serving a mission or a spouse that serves a mission over a spouse that has a relationship with the savior? Because I can tell you right now
there are plenty of people who did not serve missions who have a great relationship with the savior and who did serve missions who have no relationship
40 minutesat all. So that alone that that to use that as your measurement as your marker is
to put it to put it preciously is an idol you know.
Yeah. I and I you know I I cover a lot of topics and and I that is something that comes to mind a lot is when there
is this pet issue whatever it is and everything filters through it. Um and it's the same thing I think it's an
idol. It it's you've got to be careful of how you have your values that that are set. What Okay, let me close on this. So, give me an example of of your
thoughts on you've got an 18-year-old son who's deciding whether or not he should serve a mission.
What do you say to him? How do you talk to him? Um, yeah.
Okay. Deciding whether or not So, you're not It's not that he's decided not to go. It's that he hasn't decided yet.
He's deciding whether or not he should go.
41 minutesI think it is just explaining that this is a great opportunity. There's so much
potential here for maturity. So much potential. You like teach him all of the things that he's going to learn. You're going to learn how to live with someone who's hard to live with. I guarantee it.
[gasps]
Yeah.
You're going to learn how to serve people that you think aren't deserving of your service. You're going to learn how to doortodoor sales. You're going to
learn all like there's all of these le you're going to learn self-control in a way you have never you couldn't have ever even imagined. You're going to
learn to master your impulses and your you know your appetites. Um there's just
so much to be gained there. But you can also present this opposing side that
there are examples of incredible men including many of our prophets,
most in fact who have not served missions. There are bishops, there are stake presidents, there are young men's leaders, your dad, your, you know, your
uncle who did not serve missions. This alone is not an indication that you have
a healthy testimony. And um while while I encourage you to go for
the for the incredible experience that it can be for you, I'm saving a seat for you in the pew
either way. you know that like there there is so much room at church for
these young adults who it's not an option for everyone, you know, and we as as older members need to
realize that. I've made some posts on my Instagram about this and you'd be shocked the things that members
say to the wife of someone who did not serve a mission. Well, yeah, you know, he'll never be a bishop or and I'm like, what? we
he's not going to climb the corporate ladder.
The cor like like that hierarchy is something we're aspiring to like does that matter? But also he he's in the bishop brick like [laughter]
so it's it just doesn't matter um in terms of capacity to serve or worthiness or kindness or you know their faith um
as if we could ever measure that for someone else anyway. So in terms of teaching your kids,
priority above all is that you still love them, that they know the Savior still loves them, and there are opportunities to become closer to the
Savior, whe inside or outside of a mission, and that church is a place that they want to be. Like I think the that
and that starts while they're young, you know, that starts at any age. If you as a parent can help your kid want to be at church and want to participate and they
see you wanting to participate and do some heavy lifting, they see that as normal and they they see that as um
they internalize that as a part of development and part of community and part of part of testimony is that we are, you know, we're doers here and a
mission is part of that or there are alternatives, you know.
Great. Well, Tess, it's a pleasure talking to you. Thank you for taking the time. We'll have to have you back maybe on another subject. Where can people find you?
My Instagram account is Tessia Frame. Te ah f r a m e. The h always messes people up. [music] And then my website tessaframera.com.
And I co-own HappySacrament.com with um a couple [music] of partners.
And it is a children's church toy business because we think you should make church enjoyable for your kids.
Great. Fantastic. We'll put those links in the [music] description box. Thanks so much. Thank you.