TWO Sets Of Plates Delivered To Joseph Smith? New BYU Article Takes Theory Off The Fringe

Jonathan Neville has been talking about two sets of plates being delivered to Joseph Smith for several years. Now, Don Bradley, a revered historian, published a paper on two sets of plates with BYU Studies. This is a "bombshell" theory having reached this level. It is no longer a fringe idea and may completely change the way you think about the Gold Plates and the translation process.

 Raw Transcript:

So, this is kind of a big deal. It's a bombshell to some degree for church history and an understanding of how the
plates were translated, what the plates were, what was actually given to Joseph
Smith from the angel Moroni in the stone box. It probably well, it may not be
what you think it is. Recently a an article was published by BYU studies by
our good friend and and one of our favorite historians Don Bradley entitled
where were Nephi small plates contained in Mormon's gold plates. In other words, this has been something that has been
talked about for a while where where some have said like our guest today Jonathan Neville that the Nephi small
plates were not part of what Moroni gave Joseph Smith from the stone box on the
hill Kamora. that they were actually a separate set of place that he did not receive until much later. And this
article goes into that theory, right, into saying that, hey, we need to take a closer look at this. And the bombshell
is that this has now risen to a point where BYU studies is willing to publish
this uh from a very good historian here, Don Bradley. You remember Don Bradley is
the one who wrote the book, The Lost 116 Pages. that one if you've read it where you just can't stop reading. Every page
is just so compelling with so much information in it. And there's some really good evidence to show that there
were two different sets of plates. We're going to talk with Jonathan Neville who's been talking about this for
several years and is referenced in the article by Don Bradley. This may completely change your paradigm on what
was happening with the gold plates. Now, this episode is brought to you by Gospel on the Nile. As I said before, this is
the best place to learn about the temple outside of perhaps the temple itself. Amazing ruins, amazing things engraved
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we go.
All right. Welcome to Quick Show. My name is Greg Matson and I am your host. In this episode, we bring back Jonathan Neville to cover what I think is kind of
a bombshell paper on the Book of Mormon. Jonathan, welcome back to the show. Happy to be here, Greg. Thanks for
having me. Go over just a little summary of what Don Bradley wrote on BYU. Uh, is it
religious studies? BYU studies. BYU studies, isn't it? Okay.
Yeah. Yes. It's a principal journal for BYU scholars and so on.
And And what what is the paper? What is the paper? I mean, I've read it, but what is the paper about?
The paper basically explains the idea that Joseph Smith actually translated two completely different sets of plates
because you know the the the idea the general idea all along has been that there was a set of plates in in
Moronai's stone box and Joseph took them out and translated them and now we're
we're realizing at least we're proposing and and Don articulated it excellently in in his article is that instead of
having one set of plates that was in Moroni stone box the ones and Moroni stone box were just the a bridge plates
did not include the plates of Nephi. The small plates. Yeah, the small plates.
The small plates. Yeah. So, so this is brings up so many questions if that's the case. I mean, I know there's there's
scripture that kind of backs that up. It kind of leads to that. Uh there's
timing, historical timing that might lead to this. There's geographic evidence of this. um what what is what
is the importance of this? Why does this matter? And and and I mean first of all it it's going to most people have never
thought of this that there two separate sets of plates. I mean that's a totally different
paradigm dynamic that uh that we've had in the past.
Well, it has there's really three principal applications or implications of this. The first is that it resolves
some of the discrepancies in the in the descriptions of the plates. There is one account that Joseph Smith's father
weighed the plates and they weighed he said they weighed 30 lbs. His brother said they weighed 60 pounds. So there
was there's discrepancy about how much the plates actually weighed. And knowing that there were two different sets of
plates, they likely were talking about two different sets of plates. And there's other discrepancies, too. like
the eight witnesses said they handled all the plates that none of them ever said there was a sealed portion for
example and then also uh some people don't realize that the Book of Mormon was not
translated in the order in which it's being published today and because the Book of Mormon we have today starts with
First Nephi but actually starts with the title page and that's interesting because Joseph said that was the last
leaf of the plates it from harmony but the uh first Nephi
was actually the last section he translated First Nephi through words of Mormon and he translated that in fet
whereas the bridge place he translated in harmony Pennsylvania. So from the Book of Mormon we have today
the earliest thing Joseph translated was the book of Mosiah. So people have to kind of visualize how
that works and and this knowing there are two different sets of plates helps explain that as well. I should mention
that we know that that that's the order of translation partly because the Whitmer brothers were scribes for the
the first and second book of Nephi, first book of Nephi primarily and they were only in fat. They never went to
Palmyra. So we know that that that first book of Nephi had to have been translated in the fat.
So that's the first that's the first thing for people to conceptualize is understanding the order of translation,
right? And so I think everybody you know most people know that there were you know two set sets of plates that we're
drawing from. The key issue here is understanding that what came out of the stone box based on this paper and your
study in the past also is that that was only the large plates
right the bridge plates the bridge the bridge plates right the the plates of Mormon
and and at the end there Moroni is is what would be on there and that's it right so the small plates would not have
been bound in with this in the three rings that are described as part of the plates which has always
been a question, right? It's like, oh, wait a minute. Were they the same size plates? Were they were, you know, did he take
them and then put them on top? Did he put them on the back and then bind them all together? You know, you've got all
these other questions trying to figure out the the uh description of of exactly what
Joseph Smith is receiving from Moroni, right? And that's and it's a little perplexing. People have disagreed ever
for you know over a hundred years about where the small place would have fit in because we know that Joseph translated
starting in Mosiah after well first we should back up. The first thing he translated actually was the book of Lehi
which was 116 pages that were lost. So that was the first thing that was translated. We don't have that today.
And when he had to give up the plates in the German thumbum for a period of time and then when he got them back and
resumed the translation that was the book of Mosiah. So, but he and Oliver are translated
through the end of Moroni down in when they were in Harmony, Pennsylvania.
And the what we found is his own mother Lucy Max Smith wrote that one day when
Joseph put the Yurman thumbum applied the German thumbum to his eyes to look on the plates. She said he received a
commandment to ask David Whitmer to come to Harmony and pick them up and take
them to the Whitmer home in Fyette. But Joseph Smith didn't know David Whitmer. Oliver Cowry said he knew him. In fact,
Oliver Cowry had been writing letters to David Whitmer to tell him what had been going on during this whole process.
So that's when they wrote the letter to David Whitmer. It's been documented in the church film if you've seen the early
days of translation between Fyet and Harmony. When David Whitmer received the letter and he told his father, "These
guys want me to go pick them up." And his father said, "You can't go. You got to plow all the fields, right?" And and
the next day they went out and the fields had all been plowed and and David's sister said that she saw three
men out there doing the work and she thought he had hired them. Of course, David had not hired him. It was a
miracle. Really? Not heard that before. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty cool. And so
that allowed David Whitmer to go down to Harmony to pick up Joseph and Hyram or
Joseph and Oliver. But then before he left, Joseph was also received a
commandment to give the plates, the abridged plates, because remember by now he had translated the entire thing
except for the sealed portion because he translated the first part, the book of Lehi, then all Mosiah through Moroni in
the title page. He was commanded to give those plates to a messenger, a divine messenger, which he did before they left
Harmony. And then on the road to FET, they encountered this same messenger.
And and Joseph said told David who was driving the wagon. He said, "Ask him if
he wants a ride." So David did. And the guy said, "No, I'm going to Kamora." And
David Whitmer always remembered that because it was the first time he ever heard the word Kamora and he didn't know
what it meant. And so he asked Joseph Smith, "Well, who is this guy?" And
Joseph told him, "Well, he's the messenger that has the plates." And it was actually, it was about almost
10 years ago now when I when I was rereading that account. We used to always learn this in seminary and institute. Used to be part of the
curriculum. It hasn't been for a couple decades now, but it was right in there
because David Whitmer made that report to um I think it was Joseph S. Smith and Orson Pratt and he also to Edward
Stevenson. He repeated it. But I I finally it dawned on me, why would this messenger go to Kamora with the abridged
plates before he went to Fet? And that's when it dawned on me, well, there were two different sets of plates.
So, Joseph had finished translating the entire set of a bridged plates, but I
guess we should back up and talk about Doctrine of Covenants, too. Yeah, because that's let's make that a part of it also because that definitely
uh uh helps support what you're saying. Yeah. So well let me continue with the
messenger. So the idea that Don talked about in the article which I had written about is that the messenger went back to
the repository in the hill to get the original small plates of Nephi and he
took those to fet. And that's why Joseph translated those in fet. But let's come back to the doctrine of
covenants like you said there because in DNC 9 it was when the Lord had told
Oliver Calry that even though he tried to translate and he couldn't continue that was okay and he he told Oliver to
continue with this work and then I think to quote it he said then behold I have other records that you can help Joseph
translate. Yeah let me let me just read from the uh uh from from this the title of section
9. And it says, "Revelation given through Joseph Smith, the prophet to Oliver Cy at Harmony, Pennsylvania,
April 1829." Right? While they're in Harmony, the the the
abridged plates have been are being or have been translated,
right? They were in the process probably or in the process. Okay. And Oliver wants to Well, Oliver wants
to have the gift. He wants the gift to be able to translate, right? And and the Lord allowed him to.
The Lord gave him that gift, but in in the section nine there that you're reading in the first two verses, it
explains that he wasn't able to continue. Do you want to read those? I don't have them in front of me here. Yeah. In fact, I'm going to go ahead and
and and share that on here. It's really interesting to read this with the understanding the two sets of
plates in mind, too. And we've all read it. We've all studied it.
Behold, I say unto you, my son, that because you did not translate according to that which you desire of me, and did
commence again to write for my servant Joseph Smith Jr., even so I would that
ye should continue until you have finished this record which I have entrusted unto him.
Right. Being again this record here would be the abridged plates.
Exactly. Yeah. And then two, and then behold, other records have I that I will give unto you
power that you may assist to translate. I've always looked at that and think, well, was he ever involved with the book
of Moses or the book of Abraham, right? Yeah. And that's interesting because we
generally think of the book of Moses as more of a revelation, although I have a theory that it was
actually a translation. We don't need to get into that. But the book of Abraham was at least represented as a
translation also, right? Yes. So it some people have thought that these other records were the book of
Abraham or possibly even who knows the parts of the Bible or something. But the
the question of what the other records were was answered in the very next section of the doctrine of covenants in
DNC 10. And that's looks like that's what you're find that you know the verse.
Yeah. It's around 40. There's there's several references to it, but it's like verse 38 to 44 or
something like that. And it it um Oh, yeah. Yeah. There's verse 38. Should I read that?
Yeah. And now, verily, I say unto you that an account of those things that you have written, which have gone out of your
hands, is engraven upon the Well, that seems so obvious now. I know. I know. is engravement upon the
plates of Nephi. So the ones that have gone out of their hands would be the ones that were returned being the
aid. Well, no. Okay. Right. Well, there the part that had gone out of your hands was 116 pages.
Okay. Got it. Okay. Yeah. Is engraven upon the Nephi.
But this is important, Greg, because this is where Joseph and Oliver had were near the end and they were thinking they
were going to go back and re-ransate the Book of Lehi that was on 116 pages.
And that's why this revelation is so significant because the Lord said, "No, don't go re-ransate that again because
these other guys are going to change it and publish it, which that's another interesting topic we could delve into at
some point." But then the Lord says instead of going back and re-ransate,
this is what it says in the next two verses you have here. Yeah. Yeah. And you remember it was said
in those writings that a more particular account was given of these things upon the plates of Nephi. Again,
you think plates of Nephi and you say, well, are those plates part of what's bound together with it is what we've understood in the past.
And now, because the account which is engraven upon the plates of Nephi is more particular concerning the things
which in my wisdom I would bring to the knowledge of the people in this account.
Okay. Okay. And then the next one, read the first part of the next one, too. Therefore, you shall translate the engravings which are on the plates of
Nephi down even till you come to the reign of King Benjamin or until you come
to that which you have translated which you have retained. And this is interesting because you know there was
never I don't think anything was really called the book of Lehi to begin with. We kind of call it that, right? It it
was it was the 160 pages that 116 pages did have the very beginning of the book
of Mosiah in it. It it would have, but it also in in the preface of the 1830 Book of Mormon,
Joseph called it the Book of Lehi. He did. Okay. So, yeah. And it would have covered the
part that Nephi wrote about in his own record. Sure. But Mormon abridged it. So, originally,
if we had the original Book of Mormon, Joseph even referred to it once as the original Book of Mormon, it would have
only been the abridged record. We would not have had the plates of Nephi. Interesting. Yeah. only they were a
bridge with the 116 pages that that that were lost. Yeah. But there what was another thing
significant of what you just read was the Lord told him to translate the engravings on the plates of Nephi.
Yes. We'll come back to that in terms of the importance of these two sets of plates for the translation. But we don't want
to forget that he was commanded to translate the engravings. Okay.
But the the key thing to realize which which you've alluded to here is when you read section 10, you realize Joseph at
that point did not have the plates of Nephi. Right.
Right. That's the key right there. And that's why in DNC 9 that you just read,
the Lord told Oliver Calry, "Finish this record," meaning the a bridge plates from Roni's stone box. And then other
records have I. Well, the Lord knew he was going to have him do the plates of Nephi. And that's why the very next
revelation, he said, "Now you have to translate the engravings on the plates of Nephi."
Right now, would be a good time to go through the the graph of the different plates?
Yeah, sure. That's that's a good way to explain it because it at first it's a
little confusing. But once you read that, we'll talk about some other scriptures in a minute. But when you
read the DNC 9 and 10, it becomes very obvious that the Lord was talking about
two different sets of plates that Joseph and Oliver were going to translate together. Okay. Before you pull it up, I
I'll give a little preface to it. Yep. And that is that we're all familiar with the stone box in the hill Kamura that
Moroni constructed. that he directed Joseph Smith to go to. And inside the stone box, we had the a
bridge plates, the breastplate, and the German thumbum. Those are the three things that Joseph Smith and Oliver
Calry explained were in that box. But in a separate part of the of the
Hill Kamora was this repository of all the Nephite records. And we know that from Oliver Cowry as
well as uh Mormon himself because Mormon in Mormon chapter 6, the Book of Mormon
chapter 6 verse six or so, he talks Mormon talked about how he did the
abrbridgement after he got to Kamora. And if we remember from the history of the Book of Mormon, all the records of
the Nephites were contained in the Hill Shim when Mormon was young. And Amaran
told him when he was 24 years old to go to the hillshim. Well, later in life when they were
headed towards the the final battles at Kamora, Mormon was concerned that the Lammonites were going to overrun the
Hill Shim. So, he took all the records from the Hill Shim and brought them to Kamora.
And that's why when Oliver Calry described what was what it was like going in that repository, he said there
were records piled everywhere. There was a shelf with records on it. There was a table with a sword of Lean on. I'm sure
your readers are familiar with those accounts, but if not, we have links to them that you can see. So, let's ask this then. So, where do
these other plates come from then? I mean, if you're switching plates, are they coming from the repository?
Because they're not in the stone rocks, it doesn't appear and how do they get and how do they get to them? Is this uh Mary Whitmer?
No, Mary Whitmer comes a little later. Okay. What what we think happened is that the the messenger who took the
place from Joseph Smith and and this is an interesting point because if you look at Joseph Smith history in the pearl of
great prize he says when he was finished with the plates by prior arrangement he gave them to the messenger doesn't
identify him by name just calls him a messenger which is what happened in harmony but he was finished with the
abrid plates that he got from the stone box so he gave them to this messenger then the messenger
returned them to the repository in the hill Kamora because he had to pick up the plates of Nephi from there to take
to fet. And that's why I look at it as kind of a
a backup for your hard drive on your computer. So the Lord I in my view the Lord wasn't
or Martin Harris wasn't destined to lose 116 pages. He could have lost 50 pages.
He could have lost let's say King Benjamin's address. No matter what he lost, there was a backup in the Hilcore.
The originals that Mormon abridged were there all the time. So no matter what
was lost, there was always a backup. Okay. In this case, there was 116 pages that
were lost. And the backup in that case was the plates of Nephi.
But even when like when you just were reading in DNC 10, the Lord did not say translate all the place of Nephi, all
the small place of Nephi just up until the time you get to Mosiah, right?
So it was just a backup for what was lost. It wasn't intended to replace all of the a bridge plates. So that's pretty
cool, too. Interesting. Okay, so let's get to this here. Okay, so let's walk through this. The
first box on the left says repository in Komorrah. That's the repository that had
all the Nephite records. And it had the brass plates that they brought from Jerusalem. Had the plates
of of Lehi that Joseph alluded to. The what we call the large plates of Nephi,
which are written by the kings and the rulers over the centuries. Also had the
original plates of ether in there. And then it had Nephi small plates as well.
had all the plates, all the records. And so Mormon when he abridged the records,
he took from the large plates of Nephi, as you see the red arrow there, and he wrote the the Book of Lehi, possibly
other books in there that we don't have in the 116 pages, then Mosiah, Elma, Helman, Third and Fourth Nephi, and
Mormon. That was the abridged record. He gave those to Moroni. And Moroni had a few
decades after this when he was solitary wandering around trying to protect
himself. And during that time he abridged the plates of ether which were still in the repository.
And he put the sealed portion of the Gerodite plates in there and he wrote his original uh work in the Book of
Moroni in the last few chapters of Mormon. That's what he and if you look at the title page, this is really
interesting too. We haven't gotten to that yet. But if you look at the title page, it explains what was in the plates
in the abridged plates that were in the stone box. And it had three components. It had the abridgement of the records of
the of the Nephites, a bridgement of the records of the Geredites, and then it
was sealed by Moroni. So those are the three components as you see here on the on the graphic.
You say seal sealed. You're saying maybe an actual plate with his seal on it.
Well, I don't know if it was sealed that way. It was sealed in the sense that he wrote his concluding book. We call it
today the Book of Moroni. Okay. So, he sealed it by saying, "Oh, this is the end." And Moroni 10 is is the very
last chapter that summarizes the entire Book of Mormon with the gifts of the spirit and the, you know, the last days
and so forth. And so, but there's no mention in the title page of any original plates. Doesn't mention the
plates of Nephi at all. It's only an a bridged record and that was what was in
the repository. That's why at the top, not the repository, but in stone box. So
you can see in the blue box it says Moroni's box, the stone box that he
created that had this abridged record in there. But notice at the bottom I have
the small plates of Nephi were still in the repository. So, Joseph Smith took the bridge plates
that were in Moroni stone box down to Harmony, Pennsylvania to translate,
but he didn't take the small plates of Nephi. So then the next box, the green box was up in Fat. And you can see there
that that's where Joseph obtained the small place of Nephi for the first time in Fat when this messenger brought them
from the repository in the hill. And now to to understand what we said at
the beginning about the order of translation. The last box, the light blue says current. That's our current
Book of Mormon. It's not the original Book of Mormon that Joseph talked about. It's the current Book of Mormon. And the
very first section are those small plates that he translated last. And then it goes down to the bridge
records all the way to the bottom. Now, of course, there's another thing that we do not have in our current Book
of Mormon, and that's the sealed portion of the Book of Ether,
which that's another interesting topic because right in the Book of Ether, Moroni told the future translator,
Joseph Smith, not to touch the sealed portion.
So, he didn't touch it. And why was that? But he did complete the translation seal portion. Why? Why wasn't he allowed to
touch it? Yeah. Does this have to do the secret combinations?
Well, no one knows what's in the sealed portion. I mean, there's some descriptions of it that it describes the whole history of the earth and so on,
but we don't know for sure. There's, you know, people have speculated quite a bit about what's in the sealed portion.
There's there's been people who have claimed they've translated sealed portion. There's lots of speculation about that. But in terms of actual
scriptures and what we know for sure, it's something to be revealed in the future.
Okay. Still, but what's cool about this, once we understand that graphic, this whole
thing just flows so easily and it's easy for us to understand. And
the other thing I really love about it is it corroborates what Joseph Smith and Oliver Cry always said because Oliver
Cry talked about going into this room with all the records. He and Joseph both went in there and Brigham Young said
that when Joseph was finished with the plates, he returned them to the hill Kamora. That's always been a mismatch
because Joseph himself said when he was finished with the plates that the messenger gave him, he gave them back to
the messenger. That's in Joseph Smith history. Brigham Young said when he was finished with the plates, he took them
back to the hill. So there again, they were talking about two different sets of plates.
It's awesome. No, that's that's pretty amazing. Now, you've you've been big on the eurom and
thumbum as the translating tool for the Book of Mormon, right? How how does this affect that?
Okay, that's a good question that the as as we read in DNC 10, the Lord told Joseph to translate the engravings on
the plates of Nephi, right? We just read that a few minutes ago. He didn't if if if he wasn't actually translating the
engravings, the Lord could or should have just said something like continue reading the words on the stone.
But that's not what the Lord said. He said, "Translate the engravings on the plates." And that's consistent with
Joseph's first experience with translation was when he got the plates before Martin Harris ever showed up in
in harmony and he said he copied the characters and translated them with the German thumb. So, he was learning the
characters that were on the plates. Now, I've heard people who believe the
stone in the hat narrative say that, "Well, he tried doing it that way, but it didn't work out. So, instead, he
started reading the words that appeared on the stone." And and people can believe that if they
want. To me, it makes more sense, and it's more contained in the scriptures to see that Joseph copied the characters
and translated the characters as he said, and that continued. And that's why the Lord told them in DNC 10 to
translate the engravings that are on the plates. And they had to be specific plates.
That's the other part that's so important to understand. He didn't say just continue translating plates. He
said you have to translate the engravings on the plates of Nephi, which was a specifying a particular record he
had to translate. So all this tells me anyway just based
on those two things alone that Joseph was actually translating the plates. He later on said that he translated the
hieroglyphics that were on the plates. Used another word for engravings. And of course we know Joseph Smith and
Oliver Calary. Neither one of them ever said that Joseph read words off this stone this sear stone that he had. and
he didn't put it in a in a hat and just without referring to the plates.
Now, I know there's lots of differences of opinion about this. You know, I've written two books on it. One with my
co-author Jim Lucas where we go through every reference that's known and explain it according to this narrative. And I
know um many people are familiar with Royal Scousin who's the expert on the early text of the Book of Mormon. Mhm.
In his most recent uh volume of that, at least it was recent a few months ago, he he declared that Joseph Smith and Oliver
Cry intentionally misled everybody about the translation because he's convinced
that they didn't use the German thumbum or the plates. And that's kind of the inevitable conclusion you have to reach
if you reject what what they said about the German thumbum. So that's that's one reason, you know, my my bias is in favor
of believing what Joseph and Oliver said, but I don't end it there. I look at the evidence. And this idea of the
two sets of plates is to me explains why the the he had to translate actual
plates, identified plates, specific plates, not just read words off a stone,
but the plates under a cloth somewhere. Now on the on the timeline also there
there seems to be or Don goes over I think it was Don that that had covered uh there's also a strong linguistic
overlap between Moroni 7:10 or the translation of Moroni 7 through10 and
doctrine in covenants 11 to12 right yeah that's one of the clues we have
that they they were continuing to translate the a bridge plates in harmony
not in fat Yeah. Yeah, that that's a good one. Don had a lot of fantastic points in there, but
and I encourage everyone to read it. There's there's two or three things that I might disagree with a little bit, but
otherwise he nailed it. He did a great job in that article. How how about Mary Whitmer? Do you
disagree with that? No, I Well, what I disagree with is the identification of her as
Moroni. And there there's two basic reasons for that. And I know the Saints book says it
was Moroni. And that's based on we can talk about why they do that. But Mary
Whitmer herself said that when the messenger came to her, he identified himself as brother Nephi,
not brother Moroni. And that makes sense because Joseph said that it was one of
the messengers, one of the three Nephites who was the messenger who had the place that he went to Kamora.
And David Whitmer described him as being because I was hold on hold on Jonathan.
So the messenger on the road when they were giving the the bridge plates back,
right? And that he received the small plates from based on this idea here
was one of the three Nephites, right? And that's what Joseph Smith said.
Well, that's what David Whitmer said. Joseph said what David Whitmer. Okay. Yeah. So you know this is secondhand
it's hearsay and all that but no oneident at the time identified the person as Moroni and it doesn't make
sense that it was Moroni anyway because for two reasons again two more reasons one is that David Whitmer actually had a
conversation with both that messenger and with Moroni because there's one account when they he was one of the
three witnesses he had a conversation with Moroni at that point and so and he
had this conversation with the guy on the road and the guy on the road was he described him as elderly. He was about 5
foot 10 as I recall, had a big beard, was wearing a leather jacket and so on or woolen jacket. And so David Whitmer
knew what he that guy looked like and he also knew what Moroni looked like and they were completely different. Plus we
have uh Oliver Cal described Moroni as being larger in stature than most people in our day and of course he was a
glorious resurrected being. And so the description that David Whitmer gave of
the man on the road, the messenger aligns with what we know about the three Nephites. They re they reached the age
of 70 and then they were transfigured somehow whatever you know to where they could live forever in mortality.
And so that matches the description of the guy on the road in terms of his age.
But for David Whitmer to have personally had a conversation with both Moroni and
the guy on the road and later say Joseph said he was one of the three Nephites tells me it was not Moroni.
So that's that's one thing. The other is how Mary Whitmer said he identified himself as brother Nephi. Now we don't
know the names of the three Nephites, but they were among the 12 in the Book of Mormon. And one of them was named
Nephi and he was like the the eldest or the senior one of the 12. So
it makes sense that it would have been him who was occupied with this. Interesting. One other little interesting detail.
Your readers will love this and we can give the link to it. Brigham Young's son was on a mission and he heard you know I
well let me back up. The first time Joseph Smith's history was published in the times and seasons. It says that that
the messenger who appeared to him the first time, it says it was Nephi, not Moroni.
And that's in the times and seasons. Yeah. Later on that was corrected to say Moroni. And partly that's because Oliver
Calry had previously explained it was Moroni. So Brigham Young's son was on a mission
and he heard about this discrepancy between well the first time it was published it said Nephi. Now it says
Moroni. So, you know, was there a problem here? Brigham wrote back to him
and said that both Moroni and Nephi interacted with Joseph many times, so
don't worry about it. Basically, and so this is that's another reason why we
think that with all these factors involved, it was more likely Nephi, not Moroni, who was the messenger who
handled all these. And so Nephi of Nephites.
Yeah. Nephi of the three Nephites. And so he was the one who showed the record to Mary Whitmer,
which also makes sense because he was the one who picked up the plates of Nephi from the repository, came to Fyet,
showed them to Mary Whitmer because of all her extra work having to take care of Joseph and Oliver and eventually Emma
and so on. So she was discouraged. She didn't want to keep doing it. And once the messenger showed her the plates,
then she was convinced of the divinity of the work. And she was the first female witness that we know of. That's
why they wrote about her in the saints book. But what happened is they there
was a a typewritten account attributed to Joseph F. Smith who said it was
Moroni. And this was in the early 1900s. And so based on that, people started
saying, "Well, it must have been Moroni." And there was a guy, I don't need to get into who it was, but who who
was compiling the early history of the church when he he quot he interviewed the family of the Whitmers, their
descendants, and when he he pointed out in the history that Mary Whitmer
identified him as brother Nephi, but then in parenthesis he wrote, "But she must have been mistaken because it was
Moroni who was responsible for the plagues." And so based on that narrative, the family started saying it
was Moroni even though Mary herself said it was Nephi. So it's an interesting example of how
these historical narratives can be created and perpetuated. But when you go back to the original sources, you see
where the error occurred. So one of the big things that you brought up on this and and whether
you're a believer in the hat, the sear stone in the hat or or the thumbum uh
is that based on this you would have a translation directly as you said directly with the plates. I mean he's
looking at the plates he's using the yum and thumbum uh going through or you know whatever he's going through the plates
to translate. It's not just being given to him in a stone and a hat. Right.
Right. Exactly. Would that change anything for any other translation process that we would look at? I mean, is this something that would
more likely, if that's the case, would it be more likely that the book of Abraham was also translated directly
from a papyrus and and that that's the part that's missing or you instead of
just a trigger. I mean, you brought up Book of Moses. Most people would say, well, it's simply given to him based off of triggering
from reading Genesis as an example. Right. Right. Okay, let's talk about the book of Moses first because in right at
the beginning of Ether, Moroni said he's not going to summarize the history from the beginning because he supposed that
we would have that i.e. the Old Testament, Genesis. And so, but he had it there if it was in
that repository. And so when I looked into this and I' I've done some analysis of this, we
don't have time to get it into here, but my conclusion is that at least the beginning of the book of Moses was a
translation again that Joseph had access to those records. I know the earliest
manuscript we have, it says a revelation. So that's why we all assume it was just
pure revelation that he dictated, but I and whether if that's the case or not, I
don't know. But I I suspect based on what Moroni said that Joseph had access
to those early records and and whether he read them and translated them and then later dictated
as a revelation, we don't know the specifics about that. So something that may have been
something that may have been in 116 pages. Oh, well that's possible too, but that's not what I'm talking about. No, I I mean
that because Mo and I said that if we we he didn't get into the whole ancient
history because he thought we already had it. Yes. But the records were available if we if
we wanted them basically. And so they were in the repository along with the brass plates and all
those other records. And Joseph and Oliver went in there more than once. We know. So he he had whether he used them
or not, he had access to those records. And so that's that's another topic of an
interesting discussion. But getting back to the book of Abraham now that you're talking about, there's no indication
that Joseph still had the German thumbum at that point because he had returned that with this the place of Nephi to the
Hilcora. And so when he was translating the book of Abraham, it was not with the German
thumb. And some people say, well, he was using the sear stone. But then that gets
back to the point, well then why did he need the papyrus? He could have just read the words off the stone without even having a papyrus. And then there's
the idea, well, it needed to be um what's the term they use? It had to trigger the revelation on the stone to
have the papyrus next to it or something. There's a term they use for that. Yeah.
But you know that kind of a talisman idea sort of that somehow the stone could pick up the information on the
papyrus. concepts like that and I I don't really have an opinion about that because I
don't know I wasn't there and I know the evidence is ambiguous at that point but but the because I don't know that
there's any specific revelation like we have for the Book of Mormon where the Lord said translate the engravings on
the plates on the plates of Nephi. I don't think there's a section in the Doctrine of
Covenant says translate the papyrus of Abraham. Right. Right. It's it's it's far more ambiguous than
that. So in my view anyway, the German thumbma was designed to translate those specific
plates. That's why Borman put them in the stone box. That's why Joseph used them for that purpose.
Beyond that, who knows? You know, I can I can see it everybody's argument on both sides.
Yeah, it's interesting on the book of Moses. I mean, there's been work done uh Jeff Lindsay and uh null Reynolds
especially have done work on on where they they've found I think Jeff is up to like 140 something
phrases and language that that does not exist anywhere in the Bible
but is in the Book of Mormon. Yeah. And so, you know, the the idea here is that Moses
and the following creation story is from the brass plates.
Yeah. Brass plates language when they refer to it in the Book of
Mormon. Yeah. Well, and I have a whole another thread
of thinking about the translation of the Book of Mormon because I made a similar list of all the non-biblical terms and
phrases. And most of those I find in the work of Jonathan Edwards and which makes sense
to me because I I believe because I believe Joseph actually did the translation. I don't believe the Stone
did that he used his own language, his own the language he was familiar with
from reading the works of Jonathan Edwards and others. And that's why they all appear in there. In fact, I've been annotating
random chapters in the Book of Mormon as well as the Pearl of Great Price and the Doctrine of Covenants to find these
things. And it's it's a really a fascinating topic and it's growing all the time. You know, I I published a book
about it about four or five years ago, something like that. And of course, the critics jumped all over me and stuff,
but I when I have some random time on a Sunday morning or something, I just start annotating and voila, it's always
in there. It's throughout the latter day scriptures. Doctrine of covenants for the great price and Book of Mormon. So,
a lot of these phrases that that they're finding are common to the Book of Mormon are also common to Jonathan Edwards.
Yeah. So, that's and Jonathan Edwards talked about the re the um the glory of the
church in the latter days, how how it would start in New England and all these kinds of things that are fulfilled in
what Joseph Smith did. But that's a little bit ancillary to what we're talking about today. We could
come back to it sometime if you'd like. It's fascinating. Yeah. Would like to do that. I would like to do that. Is there anything else
that this implies at least in in looking at two sets of plates that we haven't
covered. What What else would this mean? Well, there's two points I'd like to to mention. One is that I think this single
article is potentially the most unifying article that BYU studies has ever
published. And the reason I say that is that there's controversy among different
Latter-day Saint scholars and and non- scholars about both the translation and
the geography of the Book of Mormon. Geography being the third rail no one wants to touch, right? And so, but if we
if we can come to an agreement that the evidence shows there were two different sets of plates, I think we can conclude
two things from that. that Joseph Smith did translate plates otherwise he
wouldn't have needed two different sets of plates and second that the Hilamora really is in New York as as was taught
all along from the beginning. Now S will you will you be specific on that again? Why does that support the
Hil Kamura the one Kamora in New York? Well because the repository
Yeah because of all the repository of all the records was in New York then. Yeah, because they would have gone back
right there to get it. Yeah. And it also corroborates what Oliver Cowry said. Oliver Cowry wrote
these eight letters about the history of the church. It was the first formal church history. He was the assistant
president of the church. It was published by the first presidency. And so he said that um he quoted Moroni when
he first came to Joseph Smith and he said, "The record was written and deposited not far from your house." And
that's another one of those thunder struck ideas. If the record was written not far from Joseph's house, that means
it was written at the Hilcora, which corroborates everything else. And so if
if all Latter-day Saints can reach the point where we can agree on those two things that there were two sets of
plates which means Joseph translated plates and the Hilamores in New York we
can eliminate I don't know maybe 50% of the contention over church history or
maybe 90% of it. That's why I think this article is so seinal, so critical, so
worthy of discussion and analysis and and you know, further research.
It's it's really awesome and I'm excited about it because I've already, you know, I've been doing fire size about the two
sets of plates for the last seven or eight years and people get very
enthusiastic about it because it makes sense finally. And now I see this BYU studies making it
available to the church around the world, which is fantastic. It's going to make make a huge difference. It's going
to be a unifying force, I believe, to bring Latter Day Saints even closer together, stronger in their faith
because it resolves these lingering issues that have been kind of nebulous about the origins of the Book of Mormon.
And I'm just excited about I'm thrilled that Don did the article and he got it published. And I look forward to lots of
hopefully all your readers. Hopefully everybody else reads the article and thinks about it. Yeah, we'll definitely put that link in
the description. A little surprised it got through actually. I mean, sometimes these types of things are if they're
outside the typical narrative, it's very difficult to get Yeah. I mean, this is in any academic
environment, right? But but within our academic environment as Latterday Saints, it's it's hard to step out a
little bit and and see something differently like this published. Yeah. Well, I know when I first
published my book about whatever happened to the Golden Plates, I had people say, "I can't believe you wrote
that book. I mean, that's really out there." I mean, even Richard Bushwin kind of looked a little scance at it at
first, but then in his most recent book, he quoted from it, you know, and he likes this idea of two sets of plates.
And and Don mentioned alluded to that in his article there in the footnotes. Yeah.
So, that's the the book of mine that he mentions in the footnotes was the one I published about seven or eight years ago
about this very thing, two sets of plates. And I the title is a little provocative because it says whatever
happened to the golden plates which is kind of the maybe the last question to address here and that is
okay if there were two sets of plates and there was a repository in the hill camora I guess I didn't mention or Pratt
explained there are two departments in the hill there was the stone box and there was a repository of all the
records so that's been known since Orson Pratt's days so people ask me all the time in
fact I just did a fireside they asked this what happened to the gold plates are they still in the hill Kamora
and the answer is that David Whitmer was asked that very question and he said they're still in New York they're not in
Kamura but they're not far from there and Oliver Cowry also said they were no longer in the hill Kamura so that that
gives us some hints but then the way Brigham Young and Hec Kimbell and Wilfford Wood described what Oliver Cry
said they talked about wagon loads of plates yes and I'm think so I started thinking,
well, why would they describe it that way unless they knew that Joseph and Oliver and Joseph's brothers moved all
those records back to the hillsh and that's bec because they knew that as
soon as the book of Mor was published with the testimony of the witnesses in there, people were going to go dig up that hill looking for the records and
the gold and all that. And David Whitmer specifically said that the adventurers in Rochester would never find it because
it was no longer in Kamura. So that's a tantalizing hint based on historical accounts that
those guys moved the all the Nephi records back to the hill shim. What also the single kamora,
you know, uh uh thesis because I mean otherwise Moroni is moving
wagon loads of records. Exactly. From from uh from Meso America up to uh
up to New York. Yeah. And by himself, of course. And by himself or pretty close to by
himself. Yeah, exactly. So that uh that also is a plays into it. Well, Jonathan, thanks so much. This is
fascinating. It really is a bombshell. I mean, this is something that I mean, you think about this. No one has this in
their mind, right? That this is the way it happened. That this is what Moroni is delivering to Joseph Smith. There's a
second uh set of plates that is are given by a messenger. Um
it's fascinating. It really is. It's exciting. It's good stuff. Let let me let me give one more little plug real
quick because I have this book called the rational restoration. It's the second edition. It's just out now
and I have a section in here that talks about these two sets of plates. If people want to kind of read the latest thing because Don's article is
fantastic, but the time constraints in BYU studies, he had to omit a lot of additional evidence that people should
be aware of. So that's that's one book that covers that. I don't think there's any other books other than mine that
talk about the two sets of plates other than Richard Bushman mentions it in his book.
Well, we'll put we'll put that link for that book up in the the description. Also, if you can hear me, Jonathan, go ahead
and leave I was just going to say also we do have uh some online resources at the Museum
of the Book of Mormon. I'll give you that link, too, so people can go there and learn as much as they want about
this with all the references in the Joseph Smith papers and the other things in the church history department. It's
awesome stuff. I'm really excited for people to learn about this. Bottom line, we'll put all this through there and hopefully people will click on it and go
through it and get a whole new idea of what actually happened in our history. Yeah, it's cool. Thanks so much, Greg.
It's been a pleasure being with you again. Thanks, Jonathan. Really appreciate it.