Patriarchal Order: The Doctrine Everyone’s Afraid to Say Out Loud - ft. Hannah Stoddard

Why the Family Proclamation is clearer than we pretend—and why men are starving for purpose. Hannah Stoddard explains what the Patriarchal Order actually means—and why the prophets taught it. Is it the Most Hated Doctrine in the Church? Patriarchal order, feminism, and why Isaiah warned covenant people. The difference between tyranny and priesthood responsibility. The Book of Mormon Is a Father–Son Manual (And We Missed It) Lehi → Nephi → Jacob → … a 1,000-year chain—and what it means for us. Lehi’s Pattern: How a Father Builds a Kingdom at Home The Patriarchal Order is about men submitting to God—and then leading like Christ. The Masculinity Model Is Jesus: “Not My Will, But Thine” Patriarchal order starts with a man submitting to the Father. A Father’s Job: Reveal God to His House Joseph Smith’s definition of a “man of God”—and why it changes everything. Equal Partners—Different Burdens Why “presiding” is responsibility, not privilege. How to Restore Order Without Abuse The difference between righteous leadership and domination.

 Raw Transcript:

Okay, in this episode, by popular demand, we bring back Hannah Stoddard to talk about the patriarchal order. It's
pretty much the doctrine that everyone's afraid to say out loud. Also, the P
word, which is preside, which is not a dirty word. I love the way that Hannah
frames this with the Book of Mormon, with Lehi, with scripture, and she handles very directly a lightning rod
subject that because nobody talks about it, we need to talk about it. What is the patriarchal order? Do you even know?
When is the last time you heard it brought up? I think you're going to really enjoy this. This episode is brought to you by Go and Do Travel and
Wavemakers 2026 LDS podcaster cruise. This is November 14th to 21st. We had an
amazing time last year. Hundreds of Latterday Saints. It's going to be the same this year. You'll have Hayden and
Jackson Paul from Stick of Joseph, Andrea Woodmancy, Cardinal Ellis of Ward Radio, Jonah Barnes, Hannah Stoddard,
our guest today. Aron Secondi, Jacob Hansen, Kevin Prince, Sarah Clark, and more. Come and join in on the fun of
bringing the online community together. It's an absolute blast and it's edifying. Go to quickdia.com, scroll up
to the top to trips and events, and scroll down to Wavemakers 26. Here we go
with Hannah.
All right, welcome to Quick Show. My name is Greg Matson and I am your host. In this episode, we bring back Hannah
Stoddard for another sitdown to follow up on our last discussion on what gender
on roles on the family order and the family proclamation. We'll come back.
Thank you so much, Greg. It was fun that last one and it seemed to hit and resonate with a lot of people. So, I think it did and I think this one
will, too. Yeah. Awesome. So, we talked about a number of things. We'll follow up on some of those things, but one thing that we did not fully
discuss was the patriarchal order. Mhm. Why don't we go into that a little bit? You've done some research on that and
and uh let's let's start with that as a foundation and then we're going to go into a few questions.
Okay, that's perfect. Um you like you said, we touched a teeny bit, but
it was mostly me. I was kind of beating around the bush a little bit like, okay, let's be very careful because those are
fighting words in our culture today. You start saying like, oh, let's restore the patriarch order or I believe in the
patriarchal order. And all of a sudden you're you're going to have meltdowns of people passing out in the aisles, right? And uh
seizures. Yes. Seizures. Yes. Exactly. And um and
just as a little background as we get into this. So when I when I was young at
starting when I was probably about 12, 13, 14, I started feeling really strong that the Lord wanted me to study
specifically the patriarch order. It was it was kind of an odd kind of a random thing because when I was 12, I remember
I was planning on, you know, when I'm 18, I have these visions and dreams of what I want to do. I wanted to do music.
I played the piano and the violin and I sang. And so, I was going to do music. I was going to write novels. I had all
these things that I was going to do. I'm 18. I was moving out. I was getting my apartment. I was going to eat the way I wanted to eat. I was going to do what I
wanted to do. And um there was a documentary that came out around that
time and it was not uh produced by members of the church. It was from the
evangelical kind of a group. Um not a perfect documentary but pretty pretty pretty amazing. And as I watched that I
remember distinctly God kind of starting to work on me a little bit and saying hey like I have a different idea for
your future and I want you to think about this and it's a little more family oriented. And this documentary talked
about fathers, fathers leading the home, giving a vision to their family and everyone uniting, including the
daughters and the sons to be able to help the father with that vision. And so I started like just God started working
on my heart and I just started feeling like this p push like I just wanted to study this out. As I started talking to
different friends about it, they'd be like, "Well, that's nice, you know, but we don't really believe those things,
you know, in the New Testament about submission and, you know, men leading like we have the restoration of the
gospel, so we have more light and knowledge than those Christians do kind of a thing, right?" And I didn't really
know for sure how to answer that, you know, and so I started diving really
deep in the Book of Mormon. I remember very distinctly I'm sitting outside the UVU testing center cuz I was testing in
to start doing college classes when I was in high school. So, I had to go in and take a kind of placement exam. And
I'm sitting outside waiting for my mom to pick me up and I'm reading First Nephi. And it was like the Lord just
turned the light bulb on for me and was like, "Uh, here's all the family principles like sitting right here." And I started studying feminism and where
feminism came from. And I just was fascinated with this topic. And then when I was 18, I wrote an article
called, "Do we still believe in the patriarchal order?" Because I started finding quotes from the prophets
teaching about the patriarchal order. And so I'm like, "Here it is." And and that was great. I was on fire. I was
ready to do this. And then in my 20s, I
experienced firsthand just how hated this doctrine is. And uh that's not
really relevant right now. So I'm just going to simply say um I I was attacked
mercilessly. I've seen the hate just people how they will turn on you, lie about you, just everything. And it is
targeted at the patriarch order. You you start defending it and they will come after you. And it was so traumatizing
that I stopped using that phrase and thinking
like, okay, how do I kind of uh a backdoor approach? Like, I still believe this, but I'm not really going to
say it quite in those words. I was scared. And I was even like a little bit
nervous when I came on your podcast before. I'm like, I believe this 100%. and I want to share some of these things, but let like let's not we'll be
careful how we do this. And then since that time,
God has been working on me and helping me become more courageous and more ready to like um stand for the the truth. And
and then when um you reached out and we're like, let's do a part two, I'm like, I'm ready to do this. I'm ready.
So, let's talk about the patriarchal order and let's talk about why it's not scary and why it's not about abuse and
it's not about um but it is so critical. I I have such a strong testimony having seen the dark side and the light side
just how fundamental this is. I think it's one of the key battle lines and that's why we've
shied away from it in a lot of ways, been scared of it. Um anyway, let me back up real quick. So, you're
18, which is amazing. You're writing about that topic at 18 years old, but you're
writing this. The question is, do we still believe? So, what would prompt you
to put that question in place, right? Um, because I was going and
reading the teachings of Joseph F. Smith, Bruce McConi, Joseph Illing Smith, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and
they were all teaching it and they were very much like, "This is how the family order should operate. Here's how
marriage should operate. Here's the relationship between fathers and children. We're going to talk about that a little bit more." And and so I was
like, "Okay, we definitely believed it, taught it, professed it, but I'm not
hearing about this when I go to church on study." And I bring this up like to my friends like I I talked about when I
was 15, 16, 17. They're like, "Oh, we we don't believe that." You know, those are those are for those benited, you know,
Christians out there that uh, you know, the Bible is mistransated. So we we have
more light. And I'm like, more light? It's in the temple. It's it's in our own
prophetic teachings. So do we still believe this or have we decided to reject what the prophets have taught?
Was kind of the question. Yeah. So you're you're you're contrasting what you see as having been
taught by the prophets. Yeah. With where we are today. Yeah. As a culture, are we still
accepting that or are we rejecting and even stoning the prophets in a sense? Just to say it bluntly.
Okay. Um so in um so I just wanted to maybe here just go through a few of those
principles and again it's on our website so people can go get like all the sources but it just has some of the
quotes. So it's important for people to recognize that the idea of patriarchy and the
patriarch order was one of the main targets of not just feminism but communism. So if you go study the
history of Marxism and in in Russia and America anywhere these thinkers they hated the patriarch order and they
talked about how they wanted to destroy it with a lot of hate and venom. And so
then when you move over to what the presidents of the church have taught this is or or other leaders. So this is
Elder Bruce McConi. Um he said among the saints the family is the basic unit of
the church and of society. I think we can all that's fair to say and its needs and preservation and righteousness take
precedence over all other things. True family organization is patriarchal in
nature. It is patterned after that organization which exists in heaven. So
that's something that's key whenever we're talking about the restoration. I know you've talked about this a lot of times on your show. Um, Joseph Smith was
saying, "I want to revolutionize the whole way we see society, theology, everything to mirror how it exists in
heaven." So when it comes to the family, we should be asking, how does the family in heaven operate? And what many of
these leaders taught is that the family order is also the order of the government of heaven. So right now we
have a different government system. It's not based on the family as in this sense
but the government of God is patriarchal. So just continuing with Bruce Makoni he says the Lord's
government is patriarchal in nature. The family unit is in the center and with the placing of man on earth the Lord
began by patterning earthly government after that which is heavenly. A perfect
theocratic patriarchal system was set up with Adam at the head. And in those early days, the church government itself
was also patriarchal in nature. So that's interesting to think about too, right? So even the church the way it was
set up. And then he talks about how it descended from father to son. He says administration of church affairs is
necessarily on a different basis in our day. So that's okay. We operate a little bit differently. It's what we need. But
he says but the most important part of the patriarchal patriarchal order is preserved for worthy members of the
church. He says this is in the marriage covenant. you become inheritors of all the blessings of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. And he says, "In eternity, the
patriarchal order will be the order of government and rule." So then, um,
Joseph F. Smith, I'm just establishing a little bit of foundation so people realize as we're talking, this isn't just Greg and Hannah out there sharing
radical views. This is what the prophets have taught, you know. Um, so President Joseph F. Smith says,
this is in his book, Gospel Doctrine. There is no higher authority in matters relating to the family organization and
especially when that organization is presided over by one holding the higher priesthood than that of the father. This
authority is timehonored and among the people of God in all dispensations. It has been highly respected and often
emphasized by the teachings of the prophets who are inspired of God. The patriarchal order of divine origin will
continue through time and eternity. Then here's the key. This is this part is the part I love of the quote. He says,
"There is then a particular reason why men, women, and children should
understand this order and seek to make it what God intended it to be, a qualification and preparation for the
highest exaltation of his children." That quote I remember sticking out to me
when I was a teenager because he's basically saying, "Men, women, and children need to be studying this. So, this is not just an elers's quorum topic
or you know, my husband needs to go listen to podcasts on this in the car. we all need to be understanding this.
And and so many times in my life, this quote has come back to me when I've thought like, okay, I'm a woman. Like, should is should this like be my topic?
And he's like, yeah, like the prophets have said, we need to understand this. And um I'm going to say from my study of
the prophets, I've I've heard very few people actually talk about it in a way
that I feel like I felt like, okay, yeah, they have a firm grasp on the topic. I'm not saying I do. I'm just
saying from the teachings of the prophets. This is lost. So people that think, "Oh, yeah. I I I advocate I was
talking to somebody earlier this week. They're like, "Oh, I absolutely believe in the patriarchal order. It needs to be t." And and I just said to them,
frankly, I was like, "I'm sorry. I know how your home operates and it's not what these teachings are." You know, because
they were ragging on the idea even of men and women being equal. And I was like, "Well, actually, they are. Let me
help you explain this." So, this isn't we're not advocating 1800's Victorian
homes that didn't operate on celestial principles. We're not saying go back to Little House on the Prairie times.
And we're also not saying radical feminism. So, neither of them are right. Let's actually figure out what the
prophets and all of the prophets taught, even the dead ones. You you bring that up. I don't remember
outside of reading uh previous books, you know, books that have been published probably a while
ago. Yes. I don't remember ever hearing the term patriarchal order.
Yeah, we're we're I'm sure somewhere maybe I've heard it at some point. I mean, I've been around for a while, but I'm trying to think in
my mind when have I heard this at a conference or a a meeting or even
recently written in a book? I don't think I have. I I don't know. Yes, it's
part of that that is due to Satan's done a really good job at
um maligning the term creating fake counterfeits and everything like that. And then part of it is just anything of
truth sometimes. Well, you think of you know just even the term patriarchy. Oh yes. What has happened to that term?
Yes. Um that that's that's got about as much
stigma attached to it as anything I could think of. Agreed. Agreed. Yes. Which is why I'm
like I'm scared. It's just like this kid take this on. And now I'm like I have such I had a testimony when I was
younger. But the older I grow, the more convinced I become this has got to be one of the most important things we've got to get restored and it needs to be
defended. And it is. It is. It actually is in the family
proclamation. Oh yeah. But it's not brought out specific in those terms. Yes,
it's there. But by the way, it is there, but it is the
least portion talked about in the whole proclamation. Yes. Or completely twisted. So we
completely twist the word preside or it's not this or or and and the pre family proclamation is so basic. It's so
high level. It's great. It's like, okay, but we just got to study this a little bit deeper, too.
Um, so speaking of which, let's go to a
scripture or prophecy in Isaiah that I know you know. Um, Isaiah 3:12 that actually talks about this exact dilemma
that we're talking about. And it's the I guess I don't necessarily
need to turn to it, but it's where he says, "Oh my people." Yeah. This is describing an upside down world.
Yeah. And our world. And more than that, it's describing the Latter-day Saints. So, I think we love
to read these passages and we're like, "Oh, yeah. Those worldly people out there, you know, we even want to rip on
like, oh, that Disney show or this." He he says, "My people, my people in the scriptures are covenant
people. The Catholics are not my people. The Baptists are not my people. The
Democrats are not my people. These are the people who have made covenants with God in temples in baptism. He's he's
talking to us, right? So this is Isaiah 3:12. He says, "As for my people in our
day, children are their oppressors and women rule over them.
Oh my people, they which lead thee cause thee to heir and destroy the way of thy
paths. Now, someone might be listening to this and thinking, well, you're a woman, so what are you saying? We should turn this
off right now, right? Like, yes, if I'm here touting my own message, absolutely turn this off. Um,
I'm just here to bear my testimony to the teachings of the prophets as a woman. Um, but Isaiah said this is
what's going to be the situation in our day. And he says it's really really bad. He goes on and talks about the
consequences of this that as a people we will be destroyed. We're going to lose
our blessings of protection and prosperity. We're going to lose the covenants. And President Benson made a
statement commenting on this verse. He and he said that this verse noted was speaking of the displacement of the
father as the head of the home and Satan's attempt to create rebellion among the children in the last days. So
he specifically said, "Yeah, this is an Isaiah is talking about an attack on the patriarchal order. He's calling it out
and he's calling it out among the Latter-day Saints." So we've got to better understand how to what what this
means, what this looks like, and how to fix this. So I think the best place to
start is the perfect example um which is the father and the son. So
the father and the son this is um before before we even
go there I'm trying to so there's two primary primary covenant relationships
in scripture. There's the husband and wife covenant relationship which is very easy to see. And the other one that is
not often talked about um because it was emphasized a little more clearly in
ordinances we don't practice anymore in the in the temple is the father and son
covenant relationship. So um back in the days of Joseph Smith and Brian man, they had specific ordinances um the law of
adoption and different things like this that really emphasized the importance of a man being connected to a man in a in a
type of a father-son priesthood relationship. And the reason why I bring that out is because everyone when when
we hear the word patriarchal order a lot of times we think oh it's about women submitting to men,
right? And that is a fundamental misunderstanding. If you study the restoration, it's actually mostly about
men submitting to their priesthood head, men submitting to men. So if you look in the Book of Mormon and people are like,
"Where are all the women in the Book of Mormon?" Well, what we should be asking is what is in the Book of Mormon? Instead of asking what isn't, what is?
And all through the Book of Mormon, it's all family-based. Um, and
how are youth helped in the Book of Mormon? How many programs and youth leaders save the youth in the Book of
Mormon? Zero. Every time it's fathers working with
their sons. And a a relationship there mirrors
interesting in an imperfect sense in an imperfect world the father and the son the God the
father and his son Jesus Christ relationship. So if we go there to kind of understand some of the basic
principles, then it's easier then to go back to an imperfect world. Well, really you're encompassing the whole Book of Mormon. I mean, at the
beginning, you've got Lehi, of course, and his sons. And then at the end, you've got Mormon and Moroni. Yes. The very end.
Uhhuh. And they're all related. So it's a spanning how many years does the Book of Mormon span? I I don't even
know that. Okay. Thousand years. Thousand years of a multi-generational fatherto- son link that never breaks.
Mhm. This is unheard of. that that does not exist in the Bible.
You have break breakages everywhere. No, no, like you you have
this perfect patriarchal descent of a father Lehi. It starts out he receives
basically a covenant and a mission from God like Abraham and he passes it to his son and which is both Nephi and Jacob
and you can actually trace both lines there. That's kind of fascinating to study. Um, you've got and then you got
all the way down to Elma. Elma passing it to his sons and Elma the younger passing it to Helilim and then Helm
passing it to Nephi and Lei and then Nephi passing it to Nephi and then Nephi is the one who welcomes Christ. So it's this whole line of fathers and sons who
prepare the way for Christ to come. Kind of interesting that Mormon would pick
that as a very very primary theme that we need to know in our day. If we really believe the Book of Mormon was written
for us, this is a huge theme. In fact, if we have time and we start going through the Book of Mormon, you're going
to see it's everywhere. It's so crazy. Um, wait, but if we go back to the
Father and the Son, there's just a few things that's so fascinating. So, of course, we know of all the titles that
we know God the Father is, he picks us to call him the Father. like of everything he could have chosen that's
that just shows how he what importance he places on that role and then the
other aspect is submission the sword right so when you look at you know a lot
of people today would be like oh like a child like submitting or anyone's submitting and yet Jesus Christ who is
the perfect exemplar this is something my dad would always point out he was he was he was always like we talk endlessly
about how Jesus died for us and we rarely talk about how he lived the example for us. I think that's
intentional. Satan doesn't want us looking at sa Christ's life. He wants us to, you know, just just focus on one
little thing. He's suffered. That's and that's good. And I'm not downplaying that at all. That's critical. But if we
lose that Jesus Christ is the example we're supposed to be like. All of a sudden, that changes everything in our
lives. Even even the term come follow me is is oftenimes diverted to his teachings,
which again critical, very very important. Yes. But it's it's really saying walk in my
footsteps. Yes. What I did, you can do and you need to do. Yeah.
Um so when you look at Jesus Christ's relationship with his father, you see that Jesus Christ did not come down with
his own mission, his own, you know, what do you want to be when you grow up?
Everything in his life was tied to I'm here to do the will of my father as a
grown adult who never sinned. You know, so this is these are principles that are timeless. It doesn't matter if you're a
fallen person or if you're a perfect person the whole the whole time. And and it's even when he's in the garden,
we often talk about, you know, the like the song Gethsemane like Jesus loved us and that's why he went through that
suffering. And that's true. But if you actually read the account of the atonement,
he's not in the garden saying, "I don't want to do this, but I'll do it because I love people." He's sitting there like,
"I don't want to do this." The only reason I'm sitting here is, "Dad, because you're telling me to do
it, and I'll do what you say, Dad." Yeah. Like that's the more you ponder that,
it's pretty profound. Yeah. The love actually is shown by the father, at least in scripture. Yes.
Yes. John 3:16. I'm not downplaying that Jesus did not have perfect love. Of course, of he he
is, you know, charity is the pure love of Christ. But based on the actual scripture, it is
the will. What's driving Jesus Christ? What determines what he does every day? Does he get up and just say, "Oh, how do
I love people?" Or does he get up and say, "What does my dad want me to do today?" And you actually see this even after
he's resurrected. So, you could say, "Well, yeah, he's in his mortal life and so he's coming to earth and he has a
mission to perform for his father and then he gets exalted and he's done, right? Now he's on his own. He gets his
own planet or whatever." No. So when he comes to the Nephites all as he's
standing there in front of the Nephites all the way through he's sitting there I am here because my father commanded me.
Someone told me once they're like I don't like the word commandment and I'm like well Jesus even says he's getting commandments.
He's a resurrected perfected being and he's there on a commandment of the father and he tells him I got to go. My
father's commanded me I got to go visit the other you know tribes of Israel. So you see it's this dynamic of he he's
trying to he's trying to point something out to us that he's saying I and even in
the doctrine of covenants when he talks about the atonement he says glory be to the father because of the father is the only way I could do it. The father is
the reason I was even able to do this plan. I was here to execute the plan of the father the will of the father. So
basically what I'm trying to get at is Jesus Christ is trying to show us this example of what it actually means to be
a real man and a real priesthood leader. And and I think this can help a lot of
times when women or children or anybody is scared of like well the patriarchy just means like a man's just bossing
everyone around with his whim. No, it's about him being completely submitted to
his father. And we there's there's multiple levels to that whether it's
biological priesthood or um and and then he then is doing the will of the father
in his home and that's what happened with Christ. Christ everything Christ did was because of the father and that's
the mirror of what we're supposed to do in our own homes. So, pretty basic, but once you actually start kind of thinking
about it, um you start thinking, okay, do I have that meek kind of perspective of Christ, um I have here like all the
scriptures, but we don't need to go through them. Just go read third Nephi. It's everywhere him talking about I'm here to do the will of the father and
glory be to the father. And um so
I was just going to um jump ahead probably to the Book of Mormon unless you think Do you feel like that makes
sense? And no, I I have never thought of it in those terms. I think that that's great. I think that's very interesting. And the
explanation on the Book of Mormon going from father to son. I mean, obviously, it opens with this. This is where it
opens. This is where it ends. The center of it is Christ and his
father and his visit there in the Americas. So, that's that's a really interesting take on on a patriarchal
order. Yeah. that is actually embedded throughout the Book of Mormon.
And I feel like Mormon did that very specifically because if we get the father son relationship right, the h the
marriage relationship will fall into place pretty naturally. I I've pondered this a lot. Like where is marriage in
the Book of Mormon? Because it's so important. It's so important. So Mormon writes this entire book for our day and
where's the marriages in it? where are the marriages to follow? And I've thought a lot about this, like Mormon,
what were you doing? And I'm I can't speak for Mormon. I I don't know exactly what he was thinking, but as I have
pondered and as I have studied this, I've realized if you can get that father-son relationship right, the rest
falls into place pretty naturally. Um, and so I let let's do the Book of
Mormon if if if we can. Um, if you think about the Book of Mormon, it's really
the most incredible civilization that we have on record because we don't have much about Enoch. Probably Enoch
surpassed it. But other than that, like everyone wants to talk about David and Solomon. The Nephite golden age way blew
them out of the park. They had this government. The men in the Book of Mormon,
I think, can put most of the men in the Bible to shame. the captain Moronites, the Nephites, like these guys are incredible. If you actually start
thinking about how amazing the Book of Mormon is, you can get pretty excited. Um, and again, the whole thing was built
by this multi-generational uh family legacy. So, right when you
open up the first page of First Nephi, it's so interesting. How does Nephi begin of all the things he could begin,
right? His reign and ministry, an account of Lehi and his wife, Sarah, da
da da da. So he's basically starting out. I am a king. I am a righteous king.
Both I'd say in a priesthood sense and also in a political sense in his case. And I'm going to tell you the story of my family. That's what you're about to
read. You're about to read the story of a family. And this family is going to change your life. And it's imperfect
families, right? So a few minutes ago we were talking about the father and the son. And sometimes people can be like, "Well, of course Jesus submitted to his
father. His father's perfect. I'd submit to him if he was my father, too." Yeah, maybe.
Um, but let then let's look at fallible examples. Mortal fallen human beings.
Can the patriarchal order still work? And what do you do when you're in a family that's not perfect? Um, so we
open up with Lehi. And a few things that I love about the example of Lehi and I
want to hear if you have thoughts too, but these are just some of the things that have stuck out to me as I've studied this. So you have Lehi is just a
dad. Sometimes again we have this picture in our mind like oh he's a prophet. No he's just a dad. He he he
doesn't have keys. He's not he's not a leader as far as we have in the record.
I mean he doesn't have access to the plates, you know. Um and he starts hearing all these other men who are
standing up and saying, "Oh, we're wicked and we're off track and we need to get back on track." And he
is overwhelmed by this desire for his people. So he goes and prays. This is right at the beginning. 1 Nephi 1:1,
right? He he starts praying with all of his heart on behalf of his people. So, what you see is you see a dad who's kind
of awoken to his awful situation and looked at society and realizes we are so off track and the first thing he's
motivated by is charity. He's just like, I've got to do something to help. I
think that's the first step for any of us when we start waking up and realizing truth. Are we motivated by this desire
to serve? So, he is. And God teaches him. He's like, "Yeah, okay. It's really bad." He gives him this vision. He goes
out and starts preaching. It puts his whole family in danger. So he turns to the Lord and he's kind of like, "Lord, I
put you first. I lost my family. Can we save the family now? Like I'm I'm about to be killed." And the Lord says, "Yeah,
I've got now step two. I've got an even greater mission for you and your family." So you see this father who is
receiving revelation, having visions, having dreams. He's speaking with the Lord. And that's important for many
reasons that you you've already talked about and we've talked about in the past and you've talked about with other people just this understanding of the
temple endowment being more literal in our personal lives. Abraham isn't just
some special guy. We're supposed to be like Abraham. We're supposed to experience what he experienced. And here you have an example of a dad, an average
dad who does that. He starts he starts praying. God starts talking to him. And
um as he's keeping these covenants, God gives him a mission. And that is that is key. You recognize that that's a
priesthood pattern everywhere in the scriptures. Abraham receives a mission. Enoch receives a mission. It's this
pattern of a man when he submits and turns to God. God gives him something to do. And it's a mission that encompasses the
whole family, right? It's not just, you know, Layman and Lumiel and Nephi and Sam are at school and dad's off there
doing who knows what. It involves the entire family. In fact, when it comes to getting the brass plates, Lehi just kind
of gives it to his boys. And he's like, "God wants the plates. Go do it, boys." You know, and Layman and Lemu responded
with, "Dad, that's your problem. Like, you're the crazy guy talking to God. You you go do it." And Nephi is this perfect
amazing example of this son, right? What does he say in there? He says, "I wasn't like Layman and Lemu because I turned to
the Lord and the Lord softened my heart." In other words, Nephi had to go through that process of his dad crazy
because he's kind of turning the whole family on its head. Like what what's what are we supposed to do? He gets his own witness. That is something that's
really key in so many of these teachings on the patriarchal order with the prophets, too. This isn't just blindly
follow dad wherever he's going. No, every wife, every child has the right to
go get direct revelation from God to know is dad crazy or is this actually
inspired? Well, and you get also the example right up front where you have,
you know, the contrast of those sons that submit and those that
don't. And and that's ends up being the entire story of the Book of Mormon as far as the two different people. Yes.
In fact, the entire Layman and Lammonite and Nephite conflict. Yes. Comes from what? Siblings. And some of the siblings
chose to submit to dad and others who didn't. I'm using that word submit
intentionally. Yeah. Um it's it's it's really it's really key.
Um now I will say respect is something that is earned, you
know. So, it's not just, oh, I'm the dad, so therefore now I can boss everyone around. Um, you have to be a
respectable father. And we see that with Lehi. He is a father who who's not
perfect. We'll talk about that in a minute when he's murmuring against the Lord. Um, but he he he goes and he partakes of
the fruit. In other words, he has an experience where he comes into the presence of God. he's able to go through that ascension, obtain kind of that
temple experience, and then be like, "Okay, I've come into the presence of God. Now, I want to help bring my family
into the presence of God." Um, another key thing that I absolutely love, and this is in First Nephi 5. This is right
after the boys bring the brass plates back. So, so you have this pattern in
the Abrahamic covenant where a father who does achieve those temple blessings
and promises of the priesthood, he receives promises for his children. And
we see that on a grand scale of Abraham. And I think sometimes we don't realize that that is a promise for everyone.
That every righteous priesthood holder, father alive today, if he is on this
path of um coming closer to God, God can speak to him and tell him, "Okay, this
is what I want done with your children. I've given these children to you. Here's a promise for your posterity, even multigenerations." That's what happens
for Lehi. So unlike Lehi, this is in 1 Nephi 5:17. And he says um when his
father gets the record of the brass plates, he's filled with the spirit. He starts to prophesy concerning his seed.
He says, "Hey, these plates of brass are going to go to all nations, kindred, tongues, and people. All these people are of my seed." And he's prophesying
many, many things. And I don't think that's in there
accidentally. I think Mormon is trying to teach us this is what a righteous father does. A righteous father is
inspired from heaven. He knows what his children need. He knows the destiny that God has for these children. And we can
read that and just be like, well, that's good for Lehi. You know, I'm not Lehi. Or we can say, hey, I want to have what
ne Lehi had. That's what Nephi did. So Lehi has the vision of the tree of life,
and Nephi goes, I want to have the same experience. And it's very interesting. So you go to First Nephi 11 again, these
little things that are just I guess this is not Mormon here, but Nephi. Um uh
this is at the very beginning of chapter 11. Nephi says,"I desired to know the things that my father had seen." So he's
not just going and being like, "I want to learn about the scriptures." He's like, "My father saw this. I want to
receive the same witness. I want this connection. I want confirmation of this." Yes. Which is the right approach. I mean,
that's what we should do. The prophet even today. Yes. 100%. And the key too is ne Lehi has this
vision of the tree of life that kind of is the Lord revealing what's
supposed to happen to this family. So I think Nephi is driven not only by a desire for a confirmation but also to
kind of take this mission on as his own. Like oh this is what God wants our family to do. Well, I'm part of this and
I want to carry it on. The mantle will soon fall to me. Dad's when dad dies,
what happens? Does this die or does it keep going? So, he needs to have the same experiences. And when the spirit
comes, he's like, "What do you want, Nephi?" And he's like, "I want to see what my father saw." And the spirit says, "Do you believe what your father
has told you?" And he's like, "Yeah, I believe all the words of my father." And then that's when the spirit cries,
"Hosana." And it's this. And so, it's Nephi believing his father that unlocks
the door to interesting one of the greatest visions. Then he sees even more, right? So, it's it's
this beautiful building pattern of a father starts, he lays one step, then the son lays the next step, then the
grandson lays the next step, then the great grandson lays the next up. It's beautiful. And we don't see this today.
I don't really hear even people talking about it. And it's such a shame. Satan is so smart because we're starting over
every generation. Like, every man is just trying to start
from scratch or worse than scratch, right? He's like, "My dad didn't really hand much to me." Like maybe maybe good
principles, but in terms of this prophecies, visions, like my dad didn't hand this to me, so I'm starting from
scratch. And then Satan's like, "Okay, that's great for you, but let's just not pass that to the kids." So then dad dies
and the kids don't get it. So then we're starting over. Every 25 years, we're starting over from scratch. And whereas
if you had this multigenerational covenant link like they had in the Book of Mormon, I think we could build Zion
tomorrow. It would be very, very fast. That's you see amazing progress. Now, what about those that would say,
"But where are the women in this now?" Yes. Um, so I did read this Joseph Smith quote last time, but I want to read it
again because it's so fundamental and I think especially everything we've been talking about with Lehi and Nephi,
it's going to be like, oh, wait, we're going to read it with new eyes. So, Joseph Smith says, "It is the place of the man to stand at the head of his
family and be lord of his own house, not to rule over his wife as a tyrant, neither as one who is fearful or jealous
that his wife will get out of her place and prevent him from exercising his authority." Right? It's like if I don't
control them, they won't like they won't respect me, right? But he says it is a it is his duty to be a man of God. And
then he defines what a man of God is. A man of God is a man of wisdom. Okay.
Well, what is a man of wisdom? He says, "Ready at all times to obtain from the scriptures, the revelations, and from on
high such instructions as are necessary for the edification and salvation of his
household." So basically he's saying the definition of a good father is a revelator
is a prophet. So I think this is actually don't have time to go into all
of this but I think this is actually one of the most fundamental attributes of what a true God is. If you even think
about the godhead you have the father and his son. What is the mission of the
son? To reveal his father. What's the mission of then the third member of the
godhead? the Holy Ghost to reveal the father and the son. So you see this
pattern of what it means to actually be a true priesthood holder or a god or a
father or a patriarch. Now we talk about the patriarchal order. A patriarch is
just a god. It's when we say the patriarchal order, we're really just saying the order of the gods. Um in my
in my opinion, and we can back that up, but I think that's pretty simple. Um, and to be a patriarch, you have to
obtain from your father who's right above you. Um,
in good situations, that's your biological father, like in the case of Nephi or Heliliman
or Elma the Younger. In other situations like Abraham, it's not
true, you know. And in that case, what Abraham did, if you go read Abraham or the book
of Jasher, he goes back in his lineage as far back as he can go to the next
righteous link, which for him is Melzdc and Shem, who were still alive at the time. So he's still going. So I think
this is so key because sometimes I think we just jump to
we our society hates this idea of working through mortal men, right? So we
hate this idea of like ah like a wife has to work with her husband like no no no she's just going to go to God like or
I I have to like listen to a prophet. Wh why why do I have to have a priesthood leader or a bishop or a stake president
like in this order? And there I'm not I'm not downplaying
getting direct revelation from God. So help me if if I say something and it's not coming across. I think you understand what I'm trying trying to
say. So help me clarify if I I don't want anyone to misunderstand. But God, it's a principle of heaven.
Josephing Smith talks about this in doctrines of salvation that God never does anything for us that we can do for ourselves.
So that's why he's not standing there at general conference delivering the talks
because he's a good dad and a good dad doesn't he wants his kids to become like
him. He doesn't want to sit there spoon feeding them all of their lives. He's like I want you to become independent. I
want you to grow. So to do that he's like I'm training you guys to be gods. I'm training you guys to take charge. So
my job is to over time step back and you guys step into place if that makes
sense. Is that okay? Um so in this aspect this is why he's like hey
I'm going to give you men um Orson height talked about this where angels
came they gave Joseph Smith the keys the ordinances were restored and Joseph Smith said never again are angels going
to come and give more keys. The keys are here. The angels are not going to intervene in our lives unless they have
to do something that we can't do for ourselves because this is about us learning and growing. Noah has to build
the ark. Um the brother of Jared has to figure out how to get those stones lit.
This is about us becoming. So that's so key. Our homes have to become like God's home. So in that
aspect, this a father is really on this path of trying to become a prophet, become a revealer of Christ in his home,
having revelations, having inspiration. And I think that's why you see all these
fathers in the scriptures getting prophes prophesying about their kids. My my son's going to do this. My grandson's
going to do this. Joseph of Egypt is sitting there like, I'm going to have this descendant named Joseph Smith and he's going to do XYZ.
And it wasn't just because they were unique or different. That's the order of
a true family. A true family has that revelation going on. So when we come
back, so that's what Joseph Smith, he's like, a a good father is ready at any time to be like, "Hey, this is what the
scriptures say. This is revelation." And when I don't have it in the scriptures, I go talk to God and I have it. That's what Lehi did. Well, and that goes back
to your point when you're saying that the relationship, for example, between the father and the son is that you're
going to reveal God. And so, if you think of that in a line, a DNA going all the way back directly to
the father, that's the patriarchal order. Yeah. It would be continually going back
to anchor yourself and reveal to your family first, community second, but to
anchor back to revealing God. Yes. Because otherwise, what are you anchored in?
Yes. Right. Yes. Exactly. And there's um some quotes that are talking about, you know, we we
started out at the beginning saying the patriarch order is the government of heaven. M and there are teachings from the
prophets who explain you know there's father the god the father and we call him the king of kings right or Jesus
Christ is the king of kings what does that term mean he's a king over kings so
it's this you you actually think of um I mean medieval Europe is a very very very
corrupt bastardized version of this but the the kind of the semblance where you have a
you have a king and then his kingdom is divided into provinces then you have dukes over those provinces and then and
then it goes down and then you have knights and I don't have all the exact order I'm not an expert on medieval but the point right you have this hierarchy
and as you get down more to the granular level that
that that that's probably a ripoff of ancient understandings of true
priesthood patriarchal order um Bruce Manki and Joseph F Smith just say it's absolutely definitely that yes
the only difference is there's no righteousness required there's no priesthood authority and It's not father
to son really based in righteousness in the same birthright principles that the
patriarchs had. Anyway, so back to this quote from Joseph Smith, let me say also real quick. I mean, it's also the temple.
Yeah. Right. I mean, it's it's going to washing anointings. It's right
right there. It's right there. Yes. Exactly. And and we read this as all it's all spiritual. It's all
symbolic. No, no, no. It's very literal and temporal. Um so to the question of the woman so
Joseph Smith says hey this me the mission of this father is supposed to be this revelator in his home and if that
father is this revelator like Lehi was or Nephi then Joseph Smith says then it's the duty of the wife to listen to
him. Shocking I mean if you it's actually very logical if you think about it. You
have the father is saying, "Hey, I want to reveal to this man a plan and now I need some people to help him put this
plan into into action." And as far as he is righteous and is inspired, as far as
he is hearkening to the Lord, then Joseph Smith says, I'll just read his word. He says, "It is the duty of the
wife to be in subject to her husband at all times, not as a servant, neither as one who fears a tyrant or a master, but
as one who in meekness and the love of God regards the laws and institutions of
heaven, and looks up to her husband for instruction, edification, and comfort."
You see this with Lehi. Fighting words. They are fighting words. They are
fighting words. But yeah, and then he finishes it out with even more biting words. 1 Peter 3,
he quotes, "Even as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him Lord, whose daughters ye are do it." So yeah, you
get it just gets more controversial as you go on. Um, but if we think about the big picture, I
think that's what happened is we had the great apostasy and the great apostasy removed
that we were trying to become like God. Removed a plan, removed a purpose, removed a point. So, we've got these
shreds left of obey the dad. Okay? Like what? Obey what he wants for dinner.
Obey where we move. Like what are we obeying? because there's nothing to
obey. Whereas, if you restore this understanding of like, well, we're
supposed to be like Lehi and God is supposed to be speaking to our family and saying, "Hey, family, this is your
mission. This is what you're supposed to do. I' I'm calling you to do something." Then there's something to follow now.
There's something to get on board with. Um, Adam in the garden is given a
mission way bigger than the evangelicals understand. you know that they're like, "Oh, yeah, tend the garden." Uh, if we
understand from restoration doctrine, he's basically given this mission of ruling the entire earth. He's the
priesthood head of this earth. Um, and
he's like, I can't do this by myself. So, that's why the Lord creates Eve.
So all of a sudden I I at least me personally that opens up a whole new
world of a woman's mission because now okay now there's something I can get on board with. Like otherwise what am I
supposed to help this man do? Like make his sandwiches like what am I doing here? Whereas, if it's like, whoa, okay,
my husband's like, okay, let's take the case of Lehi with Sariah. Like, okay, my husband has to go create a new
civilization, take our family and colonize a land that hasn't been colonized before. Um, and we've got to
set up a kingdom, and we're I mean, Nephi has the vision of the tree of
life. So, he basically sees this family's destiny all the way down to the restoration. Like, holy cow, what a job.
overwhelming, right? And now I'm just thinking from Sariah's perspective, she's like, "Okay, I know
what to do. I know how to use my talents and my skills to help Lehi achieve this. First
step, just survive, you know, and there's good moments and there's hard moments." I mean, your heart goes out to
her when she is struggling at that moment where she's like, "Okay, we're barely starting on this. We're on day
three of or whatever day it was of starting on this family mission and my son's already dead. Like great, what are
we doing here? You know, and Lehi's comforting her and it's like I know it sounds crazy, but like work with me
here. Pull pull through. And he's a very good example of someone who's not exercising compulsion and demands and
berating her dominion. Right. But he is right. He is called of
God. And as the family gets on board with that, the more success. And it's interesting also as it opens.
Again, the opening of the Book of Mormon is amazing. It it's it's it's requiring
you to see this. It's an extreme situation.
It's a very extreme situation which highlights the teaching and the circumstances that's going on because we
can take that down to our own families and what we go through each and every day, right? But there's an extreme
situation. And as you're talking and saying these things, I'm thinking why, you know, on submission and and and
etc. roles for for the man and the woman. It's like marriage in it in and of itself is
a huge leap of faith. Mhm. Right. It's saying, "Okay, I am going to
become one with this person who is flawed." Yes. And as you're married and you go through
time, it's like, okay, they're flawed and I'm flawed. And that's hard because
now you've got to reveal yourself right to somebody else and you're like,
I have no place to hide. Yes. Right. I've got nowhere to hide with this. Uh but you you lift each other up
if you're doing it right. Right. You're lifting each other up, going through this fallen situation,
and learning to trust each other on everything. It's not just fidelity, right? It's it's everything,
right? and and trying to get to a point where you're hopefully having a successful
marriage that has now been able to built on trust because you've lifted each
other up through all of these times of inadequacy and and error and everything else. And so
it's the same thing with a father and a child or a mother and a child. It's like I've never done this before.
Yeah. Right. I've never But if you don't try and start, you're never going to get there. But that's the model. That is the model
for the most important relationships in your life is
it's not perfect. Yeah. And so the world comes back and says it's not perfect. What are you doing?
Why are you trying this? You know, it forget about it. Why get hurt? Why why risk betrayal? Why risk
all of these? That's why they hate Adam and Eve because it's the same thing. Why did you leave the safety of the garden?
Exactly. To come into the safety there. Yeah. Exactly. To come into chaos and and so
it's but but that is the only way Uhhuh. to build that relationship and for the
father and the son for him to come down, Christ to come down and then go through
all that agony. That is the only way to show pure and absolute. I It's not just
that it's an infinite atonement that he covers our sins, so to speak.
Yeah. It's an infinite atonement in the sense that it's all the way to the fullness of the
will of the father. Yeah. Right. And so it's it's as far as you can ever go infinitely.
He will he he's going to follow the father no matter what. And that makes him perfect. Yeah. Mhm.
Right. So, it's it's it's hard because the culture that we live in has has
thrown so many darts and stones at the traditional family,
I would say, especially fathers and husbands, but it's both.
Yeah. And and it's it's like, no, this is the way. This is the plan. It's supposed to be risky.
It's supposed to have problems. It's supposed to be something that you need
to grow through and learn through. Yes, we all in my mind, the way I look at it
is we've all partaken of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And we're all going to go through
these things. Now, what are you going to do with it? Yes. Do you lift each other up or or do you
accept the cynicism? Yes. Of our mortal Yeah. coil situation. The whole dynamic of
creation and fallen atonement is all an aspect of going into chaos or and
creating order out of it. Right? Which means you need to rise above it. And I think this is actually the key in
um Adam's marriage covenant for lack of a better word where where it says right
in the Moses or Abra wherever um that for this purpose should a man leave his
father and mother and cleave to his wife. And I was pondering this a couple years ago and it just kind of opened up
to me. It's all about leaving safety. It's all about to create something. Say,
"Okay, I saw my dad and mom hopefully do this." We're in a broken world, so we're
just talking about ideals here a little bit, but um you know, I I saw and now I'm going to leave and I've got to do
this myself. You know, it's it's fine to watch mom cook dinner a million times. You do not know how to do dinner cook
dinner until you've done it yourself. You can watch other people ride a bike.
You've got to go learn how to do it. And you're going to stumble and you're going to fall. But you've got to create order out of that chaos. And you're right,
like in a marriage dynamic, in a father and son relationship, they're all fallen. So you have the case of Lehi.
He's an amazing dad. But when the family is all starving and all the bows have
broken or lost their spring, Lehi is murmuring. And poor Nephi is the only
guy sitting there like still having trust in the Lord. And it is amazing how
does he respond to that situation. He doesn't go to he doesn't stand up and be like, "You know what? I'm a married man
at this point. So, I really don't really need to listen to my dad anymore. I'm kind of independent now and my dad's
being a jerk anyway. So, I'll take charge and I'm just going to go do my own thing." He goes to the Lord and he's
just like, "Okay, I got to get a new bow." So he goes and makes a bow and then what does he do? He goes to his dad
and he asks his dad, "Where do you want me to go to go hunt?" Okay, Nephi is a grown father at this
point. He has children. You know, imagine that happening today.
You know, um you you see this later with the sons of Mosiah too. The sons of Mosiah, they've already gone through
their rebellious stage and then they went and were teaching all among the Nephite lands, right? They traveled to
all the Nephite churches teaching repentance and then they come back to their father and they ask their father's
permission to go on a mission to the Lammonites and their dad says no. And so
it says right there in the Book of Mormon they were laboring with him many days. So they're basically sitting there
as these grown men at this point they have to be what in their 30s at least.
They definitely they're married, they have kids, like they have families. They're they've been on their own for a long time and they come to their dad and
they're like, "Dad, we're not moving forward without you. We are going to do this united and if you're not on board,
we're going to sit here and we're going to discuss this for days until we figure it out." And Mosiah is a good dad
because at first he's just like, "No way. This is crazy. Absolutely not. I refuse permission." Not that they needed
his permission. They're choosing. They're choosing. You know, um but then the Lord talks to him and
he's like, "Actually, Mosiah, they're right." you know, let go ahead, let them go. It's all going to be okay. He's
like, "Okay, guys." So, you see this dynamic of families being on different pages.
They're not sure what the righteous people who don't see eye to eye perfectly working together to be united.
So, being more explicit, what is the patriarchal order?
What What is that? I mean, we're kind of talking about it. Yes. If you were if you were to reduce
it down, what what is the patriarchal order? I would say if you wanted to make it really simple, it is a father creating a
kingdom in his home that mirrors God's kingdom. So, he is the God of that home.
And I don't want to mean this in a blasphemous term, but really that's what you're supposed to become.
Especially if you've gone through the temple and you have the priesthood. You are a king. You are supposed to be a
reveal. you're supposed to um Ephesians 5, you're supposed to be laying down your life just like Christ did for the
church. So, your marriage relationship should be mirroring Christ and the
church. And that goes both ways. We love to talk about what Christ did for the
church. What do we do for Christ? How do we respond to Christ? How are we supposed to be humble with Christ, meek,
teachable, repentant, listening when Christ talks? It goes both ways.
Um, you can't have just the husband being like Christ and the church off doing its own thing. And you also can't
have the church trying to figure out how to listen to someone who's not being like Christ. So, it goes both ways. Um,
and but creating a kingdom that expands multigenerationally in in this life. So,
we love to talk about it in the next life. What about right now? And that's why I'm kind of trying to paint like in the Book of Mormon, it shows these
prophets realizing those blessings and that family dynamic. now, right?
And they have their laymans and lemmules just like the father had Lucifer and
they also have their obedient ones like Christ. I don't know does that help or is that too
No, that that does that that helps. So what so let's be practical on this today on
a family organization in the church. Yes. I think that we live in an upside down world right now from patriarchal
order. And just as you brought up in Isaiah, um
there are other examples even in Isaiah of of these things starting to happen and and and prophesying about the last
days. As a culture, as members of the church,
we absorb the culture more broadly and we have a major major influence of of of
feminism in our culture and
to like Isaiah said like Isaiah, yes, like Isaiah said it, but it to the point that
it's it's it's part of our thought, I think, right? It's part of our thought
in not just like well I'm going to have one foot in Babylon and one foot out.
It's it's like no no both our feet are in Babylon in in terms of this. I think
not to interrupt you but Nephi says right in there he says in the last days everyone has gone astray. He says except
for the humble followers of Christ and even they are led in many instances to heir because they're taught by the
precepts of men. So he's saying everybody's messed up. Yeah. If you don't realize that you're messed up,
you you don't realize what's going on. So So I want to go I want to go to the family proclamation as an example here.
Yeah. Because this is something that and I think we might have touched on this a little bit last time, but um if I come
into the family proclamation, we get basically the patriarchal order that that is here. But it it's often taught
in a very strange way, I think. Well, it's pretty vague, so you can kind of
interpret it how you want. It it it is a little bit one page. So, let's see. The first commandment gave
Adam and Eve the divine plan in the premortal world. So, it's down from there. Husband and wife have a solemn
responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children. So, you've got a symbiotic relationship right
between husband and wife. Children are inherited to the Lord. Third, parents have a sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness, to
provide for their physical and spiritual needs, and to teach them to love and serve one another, observe the commandments of God, and be law-abiding
citizens wherever they live. Um, husbands and wives, mothers and fathers,
will be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations.
The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to his eternal plan. I'm getting there.
happiness, successful marriages. Uh, okay. By divine design, fathers are
to preside over their families. Now, as soon as I say that, there are going to
be ears. Preide doesn't mean they're in charge. It's like the ears are going to perk up
and and and it's this is feminism that's coming into our culture that talks in a way that says
well here's the second part of this and this is where everybody goes to when they're trying to explain this away
right uh fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness as we're talking about revealing God
right and are responsible to provide for the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are
primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as
equal partners. And so when we get down to that part and we say, "Okay, as equal partners, that's
where all the focus goes." Yes. And it's true that you are equal partners,
but as equal partners, one of those two partners has a responsibility, not a
privilege. Yes. has a responsibility to be the one who takes all the blame for if things go south.
Yes. And and we don't want to talk about that. Nobody wants to say that.
And I I think it's to our detriment. I I I think it's,
you know, a a when we look of think about the family proclamation, we think about a traditional family.
Yeah. Once you pull that out, I it's
you're you're you're taking away order. The patriarchal or you're taking away the order.
The order is gone. And and of course, again, as we were talking about, we live in a fallen world. There are men that
are not going to lead righteously. They are going to have uh uh they're going to
be care about themselves more than they do about their families. Um they're going to make mistakes.
uh etc. So there's every opportunity to cast stones in in in with this. But
men need purpose. They have to have purpose. They have to
have responsibility. And we are stripping this away from them left and right.
And more than a responsibility of paying the bills and more than a responsibility, you know, like like they do have
responsibility. They're responsibility for bringing the money home. Like, no, no, no. We're talking about responsibility like Lehi. We're talking
about responsibility like Abraham. We're talking about building kingdoms and exploring and bringing dominion. That's
what we're talking about. Yeah. And and I just wonder sometimes, you know, I know we get all of this messaging within the church of women's
conferences and women's this and women's that. So in
many of these conferences, if you go to them, you'll you'll hear a lot about
women that are teaching, not everybody, but women that are teaching things like you can have everything,
right? You can have everything. You, you know, make sure you've got this career in place and you can have your kids and
and and this is a very common message that that's given out there. And but
there's and so you've get that you get this message and then over here you get there there are no other messages for men
right sports are gone scouts are gone no general priesthood is gone um you know
it's mo many of the there are no more and I'm not saying these are wrong I'm
just saying they're gone right so you've got destructive you've
got a ward that has no longer has young men's presidencies to fully focus on the young men and just all these things that
are like, "Wait a minute." So, we've got all this messaging going to
the women and now we know by data that
though the church is growing at unprecedented numbers,
we're also losing more women that are already in the church at unprecedented numbers.
And so, how far do we take this spiral? If this messaging that is going to the
women, do we say, "Well, we need more messaging." Do we need to keep going over here or is
that going to create more and more of a problem? Yeah. Or do we go to the patriarchal order and
say, "We need some freaking strong men." Yeah. In this church to help attract the women
and give them a purpose. And give them a purpose. Yeah. And and you know that I don't
quite understand where we're at with that. I I because because men are drowning right now in I mean they
shouldn't be. The very reason to be a man is to step up and and take care of things regardless.
It's hard. But it's hard. It's really hard. And I think speaking to the women, one of the first things
you can do is do what Joseph F. Smith said, which is study what the patriarchal order is. So you know how
it's supposed to function. number one and then look and say, "Okay, how can I
build up my brothers? How can I build up my father? How can I help them?" And just be that supporting anchor of like,
"Hey, I believe there's a there's a really good quote and I'm pretty sure I
brought it." I was like, I probably won't use it, but then I'm like, um, it was Daniel H12s. He was a me. Yeah, I
did I did bring it. Um Daniel 8:12's in general conference said one time, "I say
to the sisters, seek to have confidence in your husbands and believe that they
are capable of leading you. And when you seek instruction, believe them capable of giving it to you and be faithful,
humble, and obedient to them." And I'm just going to say, I have seen repeatedly in my life
that when you exert that faith of saying, you know, I believe you can talk to God. I believe you can go pray and
you can go figure out what our family is supposed to do. When you exert that trust, God comes from the other side.
Like, oh, I I explained it to my friend one time where she was like, "The
husbands aren't leading the men." And I and I was like, "Well, if they came to you today, would you listen to them?"
Well, I don't know for sure. Well, the why would God give them a message no one's going to listen to?
You know, so it goes both ways. You can't just and and and
I I mean I don't want to be the one to talk about men so I'll say this and you can disagree like is you good but I
think men learn by people being like okay I'm ready to follow you what do we
do and that weight of that responsibility is like okay I have something to work with here and I'm not
saying I've ever been a man because I haven't been but I I will say so when when my father passed away and I took
over the Joseph Smith Foundation um leading most of my family, our
homestead business and like everything like all this asset this whole mission
that my dad had and now I was the one that it all fell on cuz I was the
oldest. I was the one most ready to do it. I am just telling you I gained so
much respect overnight for the burden that it takes to be that leader. It is
so hard. And I'm going to give a shout out to my sister here, my sister Leah.
Oh my goodness. I cannot tell you. I didn't know what I was doing. I knew how to really good I knew really well how to
be a good supportive help to to my dad and to help him, but I didn't know how to do this on my
own. So, I was floundering just trying to figure it out. How do I get good revelation? People are coming to me advice. I got to make decisions. I got
to figure out what we're doing and so many different aspects. And I cannot tell you the times my sister would come
to me and she said, "I pray every night that you can get good inspiration to know like what our family is supposed to
do." And I know like dad said, "You'll be inspired. I'm here to help. What can I do to help?" And when I made mistakes,
she did not sit there and be like, "Well, I told you so." This is kind of what I was thinking anyway. Like she was
just like, "It's okay. We learned this isn't, you know, it's not the end of the world. We're all okay. Let's fix it.
Let's, you know, I'm like, I'm so sorry. like I was trying my best. I know you were like how can we help? And that gave
me confidence like okay I can do this. I can pray. I can get inspiration. I can. So I'm not saying I understand at all
what it is to be a man. But I started to glimpse in a small sense of
what is needed for a leader is help. And
I knew better than anyone else in the house when I was failing. Mhm. I cannot tell the Lord beats me up way
more than anyone else in the house. I am very aware of every little minute
minutest mistake that I make. I I'm aware. I get chastised. Like I I get it. Having I I I don't need someone
tearing me down and pointing out every problem. I'm aware. What I need is just being like, "It's okay. How can I help?
Okay, how how do we how do we build that up?" and and yes, you can do this and look at the successes and that that
cheerleader to keep going. So, I mean, I'm I can't use that as an
example of a father, but it has given me just a little bit of a glimpse in the last four or five years that my dad has
been gone of like it's heavy. So, I can't imagine being someone like Lehi
with the burden he has. Like, I have nothing. Well, I think also, you know, and I don't know how doctrinal this is,
but there there is that difference of burden. I mean, obviously women have
their own burdens. Uh, and some women are very heavily burdened with things,
but it's there there is, you know, in the temple there is a time where
women are pronounced clean and men are not.
And it happens to be at a time that we're talking about right now, which is about kings and queens and priests and
priestesses. And the reason is is because
the man has to take in all of that on himself. Take in all of that on himself. And he
has to take the burden of making sure that his garments are white and clean
as well as his families. As well as his families. That is in so many of these prophet quotes. It it takes on they're they're take
you're taking on in a sense a Christlike role of taking the burden of the sin of
your family and beyond on yourself. Yeah. That's actually very doctrinal and
scriptural and teachings. And so if you look at that and you say, "Okay, well
let's not forget that number one." And and men should know that number one in
terms of needing a uh purpose. Yeah. Right. And making sure that they have
purpose. But secondly, remembering that they do carry actually do carry that burden.
Mhm. And and then understanding, okay, so this is one of the reasons why there is
a difference. A man's role and and a woman's role, right? Do you really want that role?
And do you really want that? I'm telling you, I don't think so. And that is part of the idea of bearing the
priesthood. Yes. Actually, that's% bearing the priesthood. That is it. Yes.
Understanding that where you know you you kind of have a choice both internally in your family
with others within the church of saying, well, how do we message these
things about what is a woman and what is a man and what are their roles and etc. And you could say, well, we're going to
go down one road, which I believe in many cases I hear it all the time, which is, well, we're going to talk more to
Babylon and so that the message resonates more,
right? So, focus on careerism. Focus on having you can have everything. So, we don't look weird and
so we don't look weird and fuddy duddy and, you know, and and you know, we're
all modern women just like you and everybody else, right? Yeah. or and and and to men, you know,
it's like, well, let's not throw as much responsibility on them and and you know,
or or do you stick to your guns? Can I say I've been on both sides of that? Did I not start the beginning of
this podcast saying like I was at that phase of like, okay, I got to figure out how to message this, right? So people aren't like, "Oh,
like you believe in this patriarchal order and and and you're abused and and you're this and and and and
I I've gone through the misalignment. I've gone through people attacking me
with the most depraved, vicious, mean accusations that I can fathom because I
had a good relationship with my father." and and and I I just keep feeling maybe to share just a little bit of my story,
like a little bit of that um but in just a second. But um to the point where I'm like I I'm not going to talk about this
anymore. Like I'm not I'm I'll talk about Joseph Smith. I'll talk about this. Like this this is this is this is
where people are going to misrepresent me. So I how can I look like you guys, you know? I I am normal. I I I'm
intelligent. I am independent. I have autonomy. I'm not abused, you know? And then at the same point um the scripture
in the New Testament where I think it's Paul and he says I am not ashamed of the
gospel of Christ for it is the power of life and salvation. In other words, he's
saying I can't be ashamed of this because this is the answer. This is the
solution. This is what brings me joy. This is life. So, I can't be ashamed of
it and embrace ideas that are death and and sadness and depression and all of
that. Um, and I think that's kind of the point I've come at where um, so just
kind of I kind of briefly, but I feel like it's important why in part like this topic means so much to me. So, I a
lot of people know like my father started the Joseph Smith Foundation. and they know like the books we've done, but it really was a family story a lot like
the Book of Mormon in my opinion at our little local level. So, when I'm 10 years old, my dad's working doing
software engineering and um I had a brother actually pass away and that was kind of a really big
turning point in our family. Um my dad had always had dreams of like I want to write a book on the Book of Mormon or do little things, but he's working
full-time. He has a family, you know, all of us were homeschooled, so it's
there. That's a full load right there, you know. Um, and when my brother died, it was kind of like this turning point of what is our family's purpose? What
were we born to do? And time is important and family is important above
everything. Um, what are we supposed to do? And around that time, my dad lost
his software job. So, we were in Colorado, he lost his job, and he was kind of like, what do we do? And he had
this prompting, do video. And he was like, I've never touched a video camera
in my life. I've I've taught high school. I was a basketball coach and I'm a software engineer. I'm not a
videographer. And so we started just studying how to do video. And my dad had
a very teamwork attitude. Like everything was we. There was no I. Like it's all about the team. So if he was
learning how to do video, then we were learning how to do video. And I was 10 years old at the time. I'm the oldest.
And so we started doing Adobe Premier Pro tutorials for our school and Photoshop. And we thought it was the
coolest thing, right? Dad's gonna start a business. We started our own business. So we all had our own businesses we were
starting as kids. And and he really involved us. He was really good at that.
So the very first documentary he felt like he was supposed to do was on the
whole evolution topic and what the prophets had taught. And we watched him
go through that journey where he was even like studying like what Joseph Fielding Smith said and he's like I don't know like was Joseph Fielding Smith right? Did he overexaggerate? Are
the prophets right? And he had to go through that process of praying and we saw that we would be talking about this
over lunch over dinner. He's like okay this is what I'm learning. I just learned about the Coline school shooting. Like I can distinctly remember
being 11 years old and hearing about that being like whoa. and and hearing these topics about real life issues and
and my dad would communicate to us, this is important and we have people we need to help. So the next documentary we did
was about the Book of Mormon and then we did another on the Book of Mormon and Liberty and and we were doing it as a family. And you know what? It took a lot
longer doing it as a family. He could have just been like, I have a mission. I
feel like I need to teach these principles. I'm gonna go hire a video team or I'm gonna go find my old buddies
from school or old mission companions and I'll work with them. And instead, he was like, "My team is my kids. God gave
me my team and it's going to be a lot harder doing it with them." But he invested that time
and you know what? He's gone now and his kids are keeping it going. It's not going to die. If anything, it's going to
get bigger, stronger, faster. Um, so I'm the oldest and my dad is like, "Okay,
we're going to do this as a family and it starts building and years start passing and I'm 15, 16 and I hear people
calling my dad crazy like this is crazy. This is not going to work. This is stupid." Um, because he was also very
innovative. Like he's a software engineer. So he's like, "Why are my kids doing math textbooks? You can learn math
from software. So let's have them do software instead of math." and then they can get jobs, start their own
businesses. And people were like, "That's crazy. These kids are not going to succeed. Um, why are they spending
their hours doing projects, dad's projects, like they should be pursuing their own dreams? Like, this is nuts."
And I've always been a pretty strong willed, independent person. Probably couldn't tell that. And so, I'm hearing
all these people and I'm like, yeah, I'm like, I I'm going to do what I want to do with my life. And I shared earlier
like I had things that I wanted to do and and some of these things I didn't really want to do. So like the third
documentary we did was on the Book of Mormon and government and I'm going to be honest at that point in my life
liberty was the last topic I cared about. I just I just thought it was all about picketing at the capital, you
know, and passing bills. And I'm like, I'm sorry, politics is the most boring, awful thing I could even imagine. I
don't care. And my dad's like, no, we're supposed to do this documentary on liberty. And I'm like, great, there goes
the next six months, okay? Like, um, and so I was like, I'm going to pray about this again, that example of Nephi. So, I
got on my knees and I was like, Lord, I was like, are you really talking to my dad? Like, is this really from you or is
this dad's projects? Are we just following dad and he's dominating our
lives, you know? And I got my answer where I knew I knew
that for myself this was not dad running the home. This was the Lord and dad was
just the physical body standing there. But if the Lord was there, this is what he would want us to do. And that helped
me understand, okay, like I'm going to do this. So, I we were working on that
documentary on liberty and all of that and I didn't really care about the
topic, but I was like, well, this is what the Lord wants me to do, so I'm I'm
all on board. And in the process of working on that documentary, I went from being apathetic to bleeding red, white,
and blue where I'm like, I am passionate about this. And and I saw that over and over and over. And my if my sister Leah
was here or like some of my brothers if they were here and talking they would tell you we got our testimony of the
gospel by working in the work. And I think so many parents are trying to connect with their kids and it's just
by doing family scriptures and they sit around and I'm sorry it's so boring. Like it's so boring. And the kids don't
really care. You got to engage them in a cause. But to engage your kids in a
cause you have to have a cause. So that's the first step, right? the dad's got to get the cause or um and then
bring the kids along with it. That's what Lehi did and it worked. He brings Nephi in and then Nephi brings Jacob and
Joseph in and then Jacob brings Enus in and then Enus and it just goes down the line and Elma the elder, he gets himself
pulled out of trash and crab, right? And then he gets a mission and then his son's struggling to get it. He catches
the vision. And when Elma the Younger goes on the mission to the Zoromites, these are so many details we miss. But
when he goes to the Zorites, the whole story at the Ram, who does he take as his missionary companions? His boys.
Mhm. And Amu. He didn't go take a bunch of high priests from the church. He's like,
"Boys, let's go. We got a church that's going apostate. We're doing this together as a family." And some of the
boys stay strong. Some of them struggle. And so he's like, "Corantine, come back." And after his conversation with
Coranton, it's so beautiful. This is is it in the late 30s chapters of Alma, it
says Elma went and taught the word and his sons went and taught the word with everything they had. They did not rest.
So you see a family that goes in and engages and then they struggle. So they
kind of have to pull out, get themselves back together and then they go back out. And so and that's sorry I get so excited
but it's because I saw this in my home. This is where the Joseph Smith Foundation came from. In fact, we always
said it was going to be the best kept secret because my dad was very big on professional looking work. So, we did these docu Those documentaries were done
in our basement by kids in their pajamas. And my dad had to go to work to to pay for a family of
nine kids as a software developer. He that was not coming in from any religious documentaries. I can promise
you. So, he would go to work and he would before he went to work, he'd be like, "Okay, I need you guys to figure
this out." Now, keep in mind these are kids. We have not gone to college to learn video editing. So, we're learning
it with like linda.com online. Errors are coming up. We can't figure out how to get this video to render out or why
the camera is malfunctioning. And it's like, well, there's no one to go to. It's like, you got to figure it out. Google, right? Learning how to problem
solve. My dad would leave for work. He's like, I need this done. And then you call us during lunch. And he's like, okay guys, what did we get done? Well,
this is where we're at. And he was like, I'm big on what got accomplished, not just what you worked on, right? It
wasn't just like, well, I worked on that. Well, what did we get done? did we get that animation done? Then he would walk in the door from work and be like,
"Okay, let's look at it. Let's take a look." And um his work buddies at one point were like, "What are you running
at that home? Are you running a sweat shop? Like what are you doing?" Like you have no idea. Um so, but what
happened is I mean my sister will tell you we did our one documentary on hidden hidden bloodlines and she was very
struggling at that time to get a testimony. she was struggling with a lot of things in her personal life. She was trying to decide what direction she
would go. And she will tell you that documentary is the reason she's in the church today. Um she and the spiritual experiences
that she had and gaining her purpose and identity and and value of herself as a child of God. Um but we engaged that and
through it we saw the gospel has the answers and we can do things. We don't need to wait and sit around for someone
else to do it. we can do this to the point to where when it was time for my
dad to die, we again we didn't know he was gonna die. That was not in the plan ever. Um, but I distinctly remember my
dad turning to me and he said he was like, I'm not worried at all about my work. He was like, I'm not worried at
all. I know you guys will keep it going 100%. Um,
and so I've seen the power that comes from a family working together. I believe God sends families down together
for a reason and it's because the talents they they'll drive you'll drive
each other crazy but you're also a powerful team if you can work together. Husbands and wives if you can get on the
same page with the same mission and help each other. I've seen husband and wives have their own things and it's not as
powerful as when they're united. The liberals actually have this worked out pretty well. Secret combinations they've
got multigenerational family missions down solid. They they they've got that going since Kane, right? Like um we we
we need to figure out we're the we're the slow ones a little bit. That's a little bit of a joke, but you know, anyway. Well, I appreciate that and
thank you for broaching such a sensitive topic because these are things that
again we put our heads in the sand so much on these things and and we just put ourselves into a position of
passivity. Mhm. And and and just this stuff just comes
in in little waves and and and eventually before we know it, we're we're underwater.
And uh if anything, at least if there's an understanding of what the patriarch
patriarchal order is, yeah, how a family should run and what
responsibilities are really out there. Mhm. Um I would say to the audience, just
think about it. Think about it. Think about what uh this episode has
covered. And I say dive into the Book of Mormon. Like dive into the Book of Mormon. Just start
thinking like you're saying just start thinking what's our purpose here and then how does that work out?
Awesome Hannah. Thanks so much again. Thanks, Greg.