for me it started with quite clearly God placing in my heart a love for Latter-Day Saints that did not exist the
ecosystem that allows Grace and Truth to thrive in a balanced sense has to be an ecosystem of Love period you're not
sensitive to the reality that they're coming from a totally different worldview you may not agree with it but do you love them if you can't genuinely
say that you love someone maybe you don't have a business talking to them about the gospel there has to be respect and humanizing dialogue about things
that we just disagree
[Music] about all right so this is part two of a
discussion that I had with Pastor Jeff Mulla of hello Saints and our friend Nate FOX also a pastor an Evangelical
Pastor in Salt Lake County I love these types of discussions I love this type of
work I think you'll really like the interaction between the three of us in a studio setting
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it out we'll put the link in the description here we go so Grace and Truth between evangelicals and latter
Saints um we have shared
truths and we have truths of discrepancy among us as well
um How does Grace play out with all of that I think
fundamentally uh Grace starts with how God the value that we have in
the fact that we are we are created and we are valuable because God has created
us all In His Image it's fun that's the fundamental thing uh whether whe with
anybody I disagree with it's they're valuable they have infinite value and
infinite worth from Creator God and so it is not my place to diminish and
dehumanize so that's that's a very very first thing so how I approach people
um when people are valuable is shaped by not only what I say but how I say it um
and so when we enter into into uh dialogue there has to be respect and
humanizing dialogue um about things that we just disagree about and I think I
think um you know that whole Grace and Truth concept when you get high on truth
you just it's no longer truth when you treat people poorly and and um and you're not
sensitive to to the reality that they're coming from a totally different worldview you may not agree with it but
do you love them because I mean if there's anything that shapes us is love God love people right from both sides
really you know it's like love God love people this is what it's all about this what Jesus says is the greatest thing
that we could possibly do and so I think that becomes the kind of the Launchpad for how we have any sort of dialogue or
or disagreement um and then when you when you really care about others and you
think you love them you kind of get to know how they think you get to know how they talk you know you get to know what
contention means in in the framework of a discussion if you're an Evangelical you know who who moved here 20 23 years
ago you start to realize okay hey look like there's a big emphasis on not
having contentious conversation within this this culture so how do I do that well what does that like how what what's
what's the tone that I take and if I'm going to have a discussion that might disagree down the road do I need to bang
down the front door with that or do I to you know come around and you know meet you in the kitchen and then and then we
go hey I guess we disagree on these things can we talk can we dialogue yeah I don't know if I have anything to add
to that I think that's so perfectly said it the the the ecosystem that allows
Grace and Truth to to thrive in a balanced sense has to be an ecosystem of
Love period if you can't genuinely say that you love
someone and I'm going to totally this is total shock value and I'll probably get in trouble for saying it maybe you don't
have a business talking to them about the gospel or talking to them about what you believe because you're going to lead
with your piety uh as opposed to Leading with your humility and so I mean honestly that's
which nullifies the gospel which nullifies the gospel which is why one of the things is most rewarding for me in
doing hello Saints uh and I've I don't know if I've even said this before I I don't think I've ever communicated this
at any point on my Channel or anybody else's for me it started with quite clearly God placing in my heart a love
for Latter-Day Saints that did not exist I was indifferent I did not like Latter-Day Saints I just didn't care cuz
I was too busy over here he did something supernaturally to put a genuine love in my heart for latterday
Saints not a patronizing love like oh those poor little latterday saints I'm going to teach them a thing or two but a
man they are beautiful they are valuable they are uh Earnest uh people who desire
um and are willing to have conversations um I love them and I respect them like that's where it
started for me and had the Lord not gifted me that love for Latter-Day
Saints I think I I would have taken a much different approach um and now
that's why I feel so safe and comfortable in my engagement in that Interfaith space between latterday Saints and evangelicals because one
thing that has not changed is my love for latterday Saints and I'm going to continue to be able to operate inside of
that um I don't always do it perfectly but um I think that has to be
there that has to be present so it seems very similar to me when you're talking about the lgbtq community and stop being
jerks right yes it's it's the same thing from both sides right it's like you
don't need I don't need look look what it says right here you know I I said something there I don't think I
was on the microphone there but look what it says right here you know if that's the approach and that's what you're starting with it's like you've
bypassed love at that point look out the greatest commandment love the Lord and love your neighbor as yourself if we
bypass those to get them to see something they need to see or tell them
why I think they're wrong then I mean we've blown past the two most important things well I feel like go ahead Greg no
no go ahead I was going to reference the Jesus conversation with the Samaritan woman M um he makes her feel valued he
makes her feel um that that he's someone
who can address the deepest needs in her soul but he doesn't neglect pointing out
yeah you've had several husbands and the man you're currently Liv living with is not your husband and there's the truth
and you see this that Grace and Truth attention in that conversation with a
Samaritan woman and and and actually in multiple conversations whether it's Samaritan woman or conversation with
Nicodemus um you have Jesus modeling this grace truth uh idea uh so that so
that it's like because we talked a lot about the grace aspect starting with love you know um but we didn't talk a
ton about the truth aspect the truth is there it doesn't have to be like you
said it's right here like you know staring you in the face you dummy yeah I
think that's the problem is that you know so many times that's what we see as
the only way to really get truth to people and and I think a lot of times we
think well if they don't get it in the head it's not the head that changes people we want truth to penetrate their
heart and you look at the way Jesus does share truth
it penetrates the heart like look I've got living water and you're dying here
of thirst and and and and he he reaches her not in her head and she tries to go
back to the Head discussion you got a temple we got a temple you know every time you know you you get in a in a
discussion between latterday Saints and and and evangelicals or whatever you'll have the people who try to do the same
tactic on both sides as the Samaritan woman tries with Jesus and it's like
yeah yeah well let's talk about this big religious thing that that we need to discuss and it's like no let let's talk
about the matters of the heart here you know let's bring it back to reality yeah
yeah what about this what about that you know it's uh and what I've discovered and I you know especially with Jeff here
it's uh when you can establish a relationship which is based on trust
right it has to eventually be based B on trust of some sort then then you can you
can even open up a can of worm sometimes yes you can right you can even get to a point where you're like because I
already trust Jeff right I already know I already it's like and and I can I can
get to a point where I can even give him more of of of maybe doctrines that I
might otherwise say well I don't know if I should tell him about this you know or I can I can talk to him about this and
then we can discuss it because I already know he's not going to Bible bash with me yeah right and so I
think that that I do think you need to lead with Grace you've got to lead with
the grace and build a relationship and then you can talk about these things because you've built a bridge of
communication that already exists there's a highway there that that can be used well and this is something that all
three of us have experienced in our marriages we didn't we didn't lead into
those relationships with like all right let's clear the ear on all the things that we're like disagreeing on before we can enter into a relationship it usually
started with love for one for each other and we were willing to be gracious in the areas that we knew might not totally be compatible but the more that the
relationship grows the more Capital you have the more trust that is there to be honest about certain issues even if it's
going to be difficult um and this is how I think all of us we some of us learned the hard way I know I did even in
parenting same thing so often we feel this compulsion to like behaviorally modify our kids that never goes well but
when you have an established relationship with your kids where there's a foundation of love and care
and nurturing that opens the door to some conversations that you can deal with those issues it's not just a
superficial behavioral modification and I think we need to take those that relational wisdom that becomes it's
intrinsic in healthy marriages and unhealthy parenting and apply that in an inner Faith space and we go so much
further than leading with the debates I think Nate it's the the
reason people don't do that is because they don't want to live in that tension agreed right it's like it's like okay I
can do that but that means I have to as I usually say walk the edge of the sword
yes to be able to do this because that's and that's not easy 100% but that's why
it's worth it yeah right that's why it's worth it because I think that that there
I think we do have the responsibility of building those bridges I think we do
have a responsibility you bring up marriage the same way it's you you have
differences between a man and a woman and sometimes big differences and even
the way we think and and interpret things how we do that the processes of thinking and emotion and everything else
and yet God says that's the union I want
mhm right it's not you guys are exactly the same and therefore everything's great it's like no you're going to go
into tension yep in fact your most important relationship on Earth is going to be one of tension in that sense
because that's where the joy can come from yeah it's also where where God is leading Holiness I got a buddy who does
he did my uh my oldest uh daughter she got married this last last year and they he did their marital counseling
premarital counseling he's like God's desire is not for you to be happy in your marriage first and foremost does he
want happiness of course but God God wants Holiness he wants to to knock off the
rough edges on one another he wants he want because this is how you chisel out being conformed into the image of Jesus
it's not it's not just I I read my scriptures and then and uh then I'm
conformed to the image of Jesus not just I spend time in prayer it's got to do life living out grace and truth that
actually really conforms me into the image of Christ and one thing I would would add to the discussion is the
starting place for both the Evangelical missionary culture and the
the um Latter-Day Saint missionary culture is we have to move past seeing
each other as only valuable in so much as we can convert you yes
yes yeah and that's why relationship first is so important yeah yeah right my relationship with Jeff is not based on
him becoming a latterly saint right in the slightest little amount nothing
right right and that's okay and the tension there is you still desire that for him you still desire that for me and
I'm going to say I desire that for you he desires that for you but yet there is
great value and joy in just having a relationship that that's that's
meaningful um knowing that that may not happen well and and going back to the
woman of the well that's why you and I always go back to that whenever you and I talk because where Jesus was able to
maintain that tension of Grace and Truth was to bring it to the
ultimate uh need and desire of the woman right at the end of the day so so
whenever and this is one of the reasons why I think so many evangelists can lead with such
Um passion in conversations with latterday Saints because within our family within the Protestant family uh a
calvinist is like okay fam like we're your cousin cousin arm minist um I we
know we know these fundamentals we agree on but I got I got to talk to you about something within the family unit here
about why I disagree with your take on this scripturally so we can kind of do that because we have this sort of shared
paradigm that we operate with him um in the latterday Saint sense it's not exactly the same you guys have a unique
Paradigm so when we try to approach it that same way like hey I got a bone to pick with you it's like time out I
that's not going to work here um I think where we can rally with each other there
is rather than starting with all these beliefs and seeing if we can clear it all up and get you to the baptism font
or to get you to the Cross let's start at the cross that's what I have found when talking with latterday Saints let's
start with Jesus let's start with Calvary and then let's take it from
there um then we start to find ourselves um at a rallying point
with who Christ is while it's say I'm being able to venture out into these other areas where there's going to be disagreement and really have a
determination together as to how serious they are and where where they cause issues or obstructions or anything like
that um so that's what I found to be really fulfilling for me as I'm dealing
with Latter-Day Saints let's not start with proxy baptisms in the Trinity let's start with Jesus and work out from there
yeah that makes sense because that's actually I mean even going to that that there
that that that's kind of the heart of the tension yeah in a sense right because you're going to something that
is we can both speak on MH we both believe but there are differences in
those beliefs M right so there is still tension there but it's at least there's
enough we're rooted there so there's enough rooting it's not a right word there's
there are enough roots that we can go to that place and
and and then move out from there because it is everything and I think that that's the only way for us to converse we've
tried the other ways so personally and again I'm just speaking from Jeff's point of view so those evangelicals who
who say no I'm not going to start with Christ with the latterday Saints I'm
going to start with this specific Doctrine which you take from there let's just be honest that doesn't go very far
it just doesn't I'm not saying that's not a worthy conversation to have I'm not saying it doesn't matter CU those things do matter but it just it doesn't
move the needle too often as opposed to let's start here and work our way out
from there yeah and I think also the needle and this is hard right and and I
get a lot of push back from this as I think you would too if you agree with me on this but I think the first needle is
not persuasion I think the first needle is
communication right if we're going to move the needle the first needle needs to be communication how are we communicating
can we communicate can I increase the communication well we're also speaking
differently languages so I agree with you um we have a we have a shared dictionary with different definitions so
parsing that all out is you're going to do that with friends M it may not be
something that you do with everybody but you do have to parse some of that out because we mean we mean some very
different things by similar terminology absolutely salvation what what is that
and right hope I know we're going long but if I could I piggyback on that and just let's let's give an example of that
now okay um so when it comes to the uh
the different we have the same words different definitions uh and we're we're starting
with Christ okay um we can go a lot further than if we start back in another
topic if you will so for example let's just do um Latter-Day Saints believe in
a works-based Salvation because they believe that if you don't go to the
temple you won't go to heaven okay now disclaimer that's what I've been told I
know like the language there is off that's not what Latter-Day Saints believe now let's instead of trying to
sort through all that let's just go to Christ what do Latter-Day Saints believe about Jesus I think most latterday
Saints would say we believe that he died on the cross for our sins and were not for his all sufficient sacrifice no one
would be able to return to God absolutely is that accurate okay now from there well then why do you go to
the temple if you believe that Christ is the one who leads salvation then we can't say you have a Works Space salvation so then why do you go to the
temple well we go to the temple because we believe what was instituted were certain ordinances and promises that we
should keep in order for us to become everything that the heavenly father um desires for us to become in a Celestial
sense in an ongoing exaltations it's like okay I don't agree with that but I now understand what you mean when you
say you don't believe in a Works based salvation Jesus is the one who saved now when it gets to all these other things
that you do we have a completely different conversation on what is required of someone after salvation so
the conversation just takes a completely different form when you start with Christ and work your way out from there
as opposed to be like you convince me why it's not well but if I don't pay my tithe then I'm not going to heaven no
it's not that we don't believe you're not going to go to heaven but you know there's certain things regarding your temple recommend and all these it just
gets so it can get very muddled yes so well I think also what you're doing there is wor just like we're talking
about a relationship and building a foundation there of something you're you're you're
at least able to build a theological Foundation that we're both standing on right now that now you're you're both
more secure in talking about the differences from there right yes because
there the theological Foundation is in place we're both standing on that theological Foundation saying why are
you standing over there maybe and I'm standing over here but we're both standing right there and now we can have
a perspective from the same place right right and and the way that that flushes out in my relationships with lty Saints
I'll just won't name the person but a latterday saint friend of mine says I believe that I saved by Christ and
Christ alone and of no merit of myself fully of him I'm like that's what I
believe okay mhm great good starting point then that individual starts explaining to me why they go to the
temple and do some of those things and that's when I am able to say great here
this is where I start to get uncomfortable and let me tell you why this is where I start to get concerned and let me tell you why then we're we're
so much more willing to reason with one another and to hear
one another out yeah as opposed to me just being like again starting at the perimeter if you go to the temple you
believe in different Jesus and you're probably not saved okay we're done with the conversation MH we have so much more
to work on when we work our way out I know I sound like a broken record but I'm just I see that repeated over and over again with my relationships with my
Latter-Day same friends cuz there are some of them who say you know I go to the temple I think it's important we're
told to go to the temple 99% sure it's what we should we should be doing but at the end of the day if I get to heaven
and the Lord said like the temple work isn't really what I wanted I just wanted your broken and contrite heart and you did that by putting your faith in Jesus
that's all that matters to me I'm like I don't even know if I have anything else to talk to you about like I feel I feel pretty okay with that now don't give let
that give you a false sense of security cuz ultimately I'm not the one that tells you whether you're going to heaven or hell cuz I could believe you're going
to heaven and be wrong okay but you have so much more space to reason through
when that love that respect and that Christ rallying point is where we start
you've been here 23 years yep so how have you navigated that over the 23 years I me you're a pastor so you've got
to draw lines you have to know that your congregation knows where you stand maybe
you've had ISS sometimes where you're reaching out to Latter-day Saints and it's like okay I have I have a
congregation I've got a network I've got an identity here with this as a Christian but I want to build Bridges I
want I want to uh uh open up communication with latterday Saints yeah
uh great great question I so when I moved here I did not move here to be a
pastor um I graduated from Moody Bible Institute with the intention of being a pastor pastor but took a totally
different route um I moved here to Provo uh to be a uh marketing director of a
sports apparel company so I had the joy of starting with
friendship and every single guy uh that I worked with was was you know Temple
worthy return missionary and so the discussions were always based in
friendship and and I made mist Stakes I learned uh quite quickly that dropping
the doctrinal bombs whether whether it was from like you know some DVD that
some Christian group had made about you know Joseph Smith versus The Book of Mormon or Joseph Smith versus the Bible
or whatever it was the Bible versus Book of Mormon that that those were not going to be um fruitful things to keep
relationships um and so I would say that that as a pastor I wear two different
hats I wear the pastor hat and I wear the I wear the Nate as a friend hat and
so what you said earlier I I framed it ear like you said earlier about um I
can't remember how you phrased it but I would have phrased it this way you have to earn the right to have the harder
conversation I remember having that that kind of drilled into my head of like um
unless I am you know loving people I can't I can't go there and if unless
that conversation is without contention I can't I can't go there and and so
that's how I started as a person uh then in Ministry it was like okay we're going
to build we're going to build uh I was a privileged to be a pastor at centerp Point Church in Oram where you know our
motto was we're going to love the people we live around and so there's going to be things that we do and things that we
don't do that expresses that love and so one of the things that we we didn't do
is we we never talked about Latter-Day Saint issues on a Sunday morning because
the vast majority of people that came to that church had family members who are latterday Saints and if they wanted to
invite them to you know Christmas Eve they want to invite them to a church service we couldn't be a a polarizing
place that was always like heavy on Doctrine we had to be a place that loved
and welcomed LDS people into into um our services and and that's what we wanted
and and I remember when I started there we were called the Christ Evangelical Church that Evangelical word was a big
barrier because every time you hear the news during you know conference you've got the evangelicals there you know
banging the drum Bible bashing and so it's like people equated evangelical church with crazy evangelicals that are
you know over the top and so that's when we changed our name to Centerpoint Church well uh there was a lot of people
who didn't like that at the church and left and they moved on but the culture shifted to be a culture that was like we
really welcome people and so there was a different different a little bit of a different approach was like we're not
going to talk about this from the pulpit um now there were conversations
that were had because there were people who were you know who had left the LDS church who were
seeking Christ in this way and so you know we had to have conversations we had to talk about Doctrine and discipleship
and so we did did have those but it was always in a manner of like how do we do this with Grace and Truth how do we do
it in a tone of respect and um so that's how I approached it as a pastor and
that's at Salt and Light Church up in Herman that's how that's how we're approaching that you're not you're not
going to come to our church and and hear a any sort of bashing it's just not allowed I don't care if it's from the
from the sermon or if it just conversation between people you know over donuts and coffee we're not we're
not bashing anybody um because we love the people we live around we want them to feel welcome yeah yeah um I think
also you know just finishing up on maybe this point here it's what I see in this and what I've
seen in in you know I've got a good friend that's a a rabbi Scottdale and
and and I I try to put the same principle in place with everyone is there are Godly
values that I have to respect that I see in you that I see in you right I I have
to e even saying you've got a congregation that you have to look toward and you are responsible for right
that I recognize I have to recognize that I think it's like that is a God
principle you are taking on the responsibility of other people you're taking on in your best view the
responsibility of Salvation I mean is there a higher calling of of of those that you're with that is to me very
Godly and and can't be diminished right I don't
want to diminish that ever and even to the point I will say and I'm going to get some Flack for this but even to the
point I would say that there is
a sense of loyalty to truth even I if I disagree
with that truth that is also Godly right there's a loyalty to truth that you feel
that you live by and that you practice that I have I'm going to say okay this is something I respect this is something
very important and I don't know if you feel the same sense there the other way around but it's I don't that's how I
look at it first that to me is that's who you are that's who you are and and
that to me is first more important than saying why don't you believe in the Book of Mormon interesting right yeah well
and and I the way I've experienced that even in my relationship with latterday Saints is um by allowing the Lord to
Humble me to um to make that big leap of agreeing
with Latter-Day Saints like that's honestly agreeing with Latter-Day Saints is more uncomfortable than disagreeing
for I think a lot of evangelicals because it's it's easy to disagree it's like there it is black and white like
this is where we're different this is why we think your beliefs are not biblical or whatever what can be really uncomfortable for an evangelic to be
like man we really agree on this stuff here here and here because um by saying that we agree you
know what that creates tension yeah that's exactly and we did have to like
work with that and that's but at the same time I just I think that's where the Lord shows up and and can do some
pretty awesome things we don't have to fully agree anymore than we have to fully disagree but that's where we kind
of start working things out in the context of relationship I I think that's that's an important thing I I think it's a it
happens a lot for me in kind of the Moral Moral realm like when I see um
really good good Latter-day Saint fathers and really good latterday Saint marriages and I go that's beautiful
beautiful that that's that's that pleases God when when people dwell in
Harmony and then live out um values and characteristics that um that are
honorable yeah that's a beautiful thing and I do agree with Jeff like for a lot
of evangelicals it's hard to agree on stuff like that because it's like we're so doctrinally focused as to the
way of Salvation you know we just see it within the the doctrinal Paradigm and
you know uh probably more than latterday Saints do I think Latter-Day Saints
probably Define and you correct me if I'm wrong but there's a there's a lot of just being a good person that defines
your your your Christianity whereas Christianity for most evangelicals
um is probably more defined of having the right do doctrines in a row as the
first thing like do you believe the right stuff about God do you believe um
the correct Doctrine yeah that might be true yeah yeah and if you want Insider baseball on why I think that's the case
it's because the tension that exists within the Protestant world and all the different denominations you'll get some weird teachings that will Flare from
time to time so there is this almost compulsion to make sure that we are guarding the f it of God's word and our
understanding of biblical Doctrine otherwise you do get these weird health and wealth name it and claim it um
offshoots of strange teachings that we then have to Rally back around which is uh important to be able to do but at the
same time not to the extent that it causes a barrier uh in understanding that the Lord is not interested in our
perfected Doctrine as much as he is in the salvation of our hearts and a restored relationship with him yeah yeah
well Jeff and Nate really appreciate your time your insights and really appreciate your
goodness and uh you know what you guys do and and the way you live your lives and appreciate your friendship um would
love to circle around eventually and bring you back on and and talk to the
comments that we'll get on on on the episode so I enjoy that you get comments too oh yeah few of them few of them so
appreciate it very much thank you so much Greg
