Brian Hales provides numerous historical data points to show that Joseph Smith did indeed practice polygamy. Some documents are shared, as are QR codes for evidence that Brian provides.
Brian covers contemporaneous evidence of Joseph Smith's polygamy, Section 132 being written by Joseph Smith, as well as an exhaustive number of communications, church documents, affidavits, and more.
which side of the fence that you're on this has been exhausting absolutely exhausting but I think you're going to
enjoy this episode with Brian hailes he's got a lot of information that he's going to share with us people are very
emotional about this topic we had over 3,300 comments on the last interview
with Michelle Stone last week so it is very much a lightning rod cultural issue
among Latter-Day Saints I want to be clear when I did an interview previously about a month ago with Jacob Hansen I
think it was pretty clear where I fell on this and with Michelle I told her before we even recorded where my
conclusions were that I disagreed with her but I'm glad she did all this research I'm glad she does all this I
wish more of us did that I wish more of us delved into the scriptures that way I
just don't agree with her conclusions and apparently that is not okay with a number of people but so
be it all right so this episode is brought to you by scripture notes scripture notes is the application I've
told you about previously that I've used for my book which is coming out shortly it is the application I use for all of
my uh scripture study you see here I've got section 132 and chapter 2 of Jacob up which are both pertinent to this
discussion here today it is by far the most powerful scripture study tool out
there in my humble opinion go to scripture notes.com to find out more scripture notes.com here we
[Music]
go all right welcome to Quick show my name is Greg Matson and I am your host in this episode we have brought on polygamy expert Brian hell's retired
anesthesiologist who's published uh plentiful on Joseph Smith and polygamy Brian welcome to the show thanks for
having me GRE really appreciate you doing this there is right now and and and I know you've noticed this but
there's there's a lot of talk about polygamy about denying Joseph Smith's
polygamy about denying polygamy overall going through the scriptures uh let's start with that what why do you think
this phenomenon is happening today you know I think the the church
Bears some some responsibility and I'm I'm not here to point fingers at at the
leaders I I love these men but if you go back to the 1940s and
50s I think what happened was that church leaders uh were seeing a lot of
media attention to the what we would call the Mormon fundamentalist polygamists of that era and if you go to
my website I hope it's okay to plug it it's Mormon fundamentalism tocom you'll see pictures that are rolling across the
the homepage many of them are taken from Life Magazine callers these these these
big uh Outlets media outlets for the time and I think Hebrew J Grant was
pretty bothered by this and he he made he wanted to emphasize that we are a monogamous church and so they they
created this policy that we're just going to talk about us as monogamist we're not going to delve into our
polygamous paths we're not going to program discussions of polygamy or Joseph Smith and the origin uh into our
you know curriculums or Sunday curricul we're not going to talk about it in general conference and and we notice
also about this time we also have church historian who's an apostle Joseph Fielding Smith and he seems to embrace
this mentality just as well if if it was a policy then he's embracing it because
we don't find anybody researching the documents to try to find out exactly what happened they aren't searching
through the archives of course there's lots of archives that aren't being uh uh researched through this time they just
don't have the the number of people there helping but but we find that virtually nothing is happening in the
church to research Joseph Smith and early polygamy up until about the 2000s
and and so that the Y church leaders have created a policy that was great for then and I you know I understand why
they would do that but when we go to the 2000s and the internet shows up not everything the anti- Mormons are saying
about Joseph Smith and polygamy is false and so what we find in the 2000s uh is
an attempt to address the uh the fact that this hasn't been talked about for many many decades now
we do have wio John H woodo who was an apostle who came out very cleanly and I
think it was in 1950s talking about Joseph's polygamy and there are a few other scattered references here and
there Joseph Fielding Smith published The Blood atonement and the origin of plural marriage so you know it wasn't
entirely sterile but what we find is it's just not part of the curriculum so many members are unaware of what was
happening and so the church plays a little bit of catch up there in the 2000s I met with elder Jensen who was in
church historian wonderful man and Rick Turley and they're they're saying well we're trying to figure out how to how to
create a a new product that can that can teach the members you know about this time period and they came up with the
gospel topic essay that was published in 2014 and I think that that caught a lot
of people by surprise they didn't really know Joseph had was the originator of this practice and and so I think the
fact that we didn't talk about it for so many years had kind of set up a a
scenario where individuals are going to say I don't think Joseph would have done
that you know it's really bad for women and Joseph was a nice guy and I just don't think that would happen so anyway
does that make sense at all there gray no I think that makes a lot of sense I think it's uh it's just so funny I've
had a couple commenters in fact on previous uh episodes that have said I can't believe in 2024 I'm defending
polygamy you know it's like this this turnaround all of a sudden for those
that uh are afraid that a complete denial of polygamy means that there's a denial of priesthood Authority there's a
denial of a prophetic Manel there's a denial of of church history even um it's
like they now they're having to turn around all of a sudden with this movement of denying the polygamy and start defending what we've tried to
swipe you know uh sweep under the rug for for so long right now of course you
also have you also have uh the internet coming along you've got
ideas at that at a level that is unprecedented being spread around and
shared and and then of course you've got the Joseph Smith papers right where people have gone in on their own they've
delved into it and they've pulled information out and there's this democratization of of of information
from experts down to everybody else and so there's new narratives and ideas that
are formed from this so I think that also plays a part in it yeah and and and we should point out
though that those that that have taken that this interpretation that Joseph wasn't a polygamist they actually have
some genuine points sure I me when they they look at the data that that has been you know given to us it's not perfect
and and when they they exercise their their concern or their their skepticism on it they they do have some good points
but the problem is when you put the these ideas into the big picture I think that there's there's really no question
Joseph did practice polygamy and and that there's problems with with the methodology of those that are advancing
this other narrative yeah now you would come up with uh uh five different points
that you wanted to cover on this and saying this and this I think tells us about the times just exactly what we've
been talking about here that that applies to these these changes that we've seen in in the transformation and
transmission of of knowledge here do you want to cover those well I would love to I've been reading a book that talks
about the uh methodologies of individuals who seem to
be comfortable um rejecting or denying
uh conclusions that seem to be based upon lot a large amount of of reliable
scientific or historical evidence and we can call these I don't want to use a pejorative term I want to be respectful
we can call them denialists or or we could call them you know pgy deniers or
monogamous model Advocates or or something but there there are a lot yeah
okay again I don't want to be disrespectful because they do have IGN yeah their points are part of the
puzzle right um but but there were five things that this this author in this book uh brings out as as as
methodologies that I thought would be useful to just talk about in the context of polygamy denying and the very first
one is cherry-picking and and I want to just give an example of this it's going to
take a minute because to show that people might be cherry-picking you've got to show them all the other cherries on the tree that aren't being picked and
so I would like to go through and talk about two types of evidences one contemporaneous evidences that Joseph
Smith practiced plural marriage and then we'll shift over to evidences from people who aren't in the Utah church but
are either rlds or they're they're um uh in they've left both both traditions and
are on their own but the the I had just yesterday incidentally somebody messaged me on Facebook and asked me what is the
number one solid evidence that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy and my first response was well you know there really
isn't anything like that and they said no there really is something like that and that is the uh the kingsbery copy of
section 132 and to understand why I think that is a rock solid evidence let let me
let's explain the it begins by looking at Joseph Smith's journal for a contemporaneous uh entry for July 12
1843 it says received a revelation in the office in the presence of hyam Smith
his brother and William Clayton now we don't know what that Revelation is but for those who say it wasn't about
polygamy they need to come up with with a good theory that's got to be part of the the counter Theory um but then we go
to William Clayton's journal and that's why you know his his journal is is becomes more and more important um but
he wrote for that same day he said this morning this am I wrote a revelation consisting of 10 pages on the order of
the priesthood showing the design signs in Moses Abraham David and Solomon having many wives and concubines Etc so
here we find a convergence we got Joseph's Journal saying that there was a revelation and Clayton was there
probably he was scribing it h and then well we know he was he he later we have a date on that entry uh it's July 12th
1843 yeah oh on July 12th 1843 he writes it okay both both journals have that
same day as it's presented to the High Council yeah actually it's one month later it's August 12 it's easy to get
those dates okay August okay yeah and we'll talk about that here in a minute um but what we have is that within a day
or two new K Whitney who who had he had resources he he asked probably paid
Joseph Kingsbury to make a copy of that and and new K Whitney collected re
Revelations he had quite a collection and he wanted this one so Kingsbury a day or two later sat down and wrote a
copy of it and and that is I I I sent you a video that kind of shows that did
you play that maybe um let's take let's take a look at that yeah as as you look
at this I I created this this video to let people see all eight eight pages and
how there there are a few little edits here and there but there really is nothing to make us think that this has
been tampered with and it's and and what is more we have um eyewitness
testimonials from Kingsbury who say that this is a an exact copy of of the
Clayton one of the Clayton version and Clayton we have uh iwi his testimony
from him saying that this is a legitimate copy the Kingsbury copy is a
legitimate copy or an accurate copy of the original that he wrote I mean you
really can't get a much better provenance I I don't see it it thumbing the pages there Greg I don't know uh
maybe I'm I'm not seeing it right oh there you go there you go but but you
can see small edits but this is not you know a a revelation that's been monkeyed with I would I would argue and you can
see the original online I just pulled these off as screenshots on uh off of
Joseph Smith papers project uh or their website so so you can see this really is
a solid document and and there are people who want to say that there are weaknesses and and maybe there are a few
little ones but we have eyewitnesses saying all the way along that is this is what Joseph Smith spoke these are the
very words and and the only way to really make this less is to just say that the people involved their Liars but
we have other evidences that we should continue can I ask you just on this also though Brian is there any extent
documents on that that would go beyond this that are is this everything that Kingsbury had do we are we missing
anything from there that we know of or no that's a great question the the last
H verse verse 66 as it's now versified um tells us that this is the end and and
there's more he's going to reveal more in the future but here he's making an end so so it it really is a compact a
revelation it doesn't it's not open-ended Joseph never did reveal more this is really all we have from Joseph
Smith on this topic and there's some Illusions here and there but but really as far as teaching about polygamy this
is all we have and again the provenance I think is really solid um let let me
just go through a few more cont temporaneous things and then I I did send you a slide that shows the timeline for Providence we can talk about that in
a minute but on August 12th we have multiple late accounts saying Jo that
hyram took this document and read it to the High Council and we find in Franklin Richards
journal for that date that he says hyam said before the high counsil that a man
shall take his brother's wife and raise up seed unto him as it was in Israel must be again established so here we
have contemporaneous evidence that hyam is speaking a revelation about polygamy
um before the High Council okay it's not all late we've got this one contemporaneous but on January 5th of 44
Jacob Scott in a letter to to family in Canada he relates that he has heard about a revelation that talks about
plural marriage that came from Joseph Smith and then we fast forward to June to the navu Expositor and we find that
that Austin cows who had been a member of the state presidency comes out and describes the very same thing that a
revelation was read to the High Council it talked about polygamy and then we also have an affidavit from William law
saying he took the Revelation home and later in an interview he said that he and his wife he took it home and it
turned them upside down and they were very serious about considering doing what what Joseph was asking them or
telling them should be done with polygamy but they ultimately rejected it we have a third affidavit from Jane law
that corroborated her husband's affidavit that and we need to be careful because just because they're anti-
Mormon or or they're apostate or they're disagreeing doesn't mean that they're automatically liars and and equally if
if if there's a late account of something doesn't mean that they people can't remember especially the the big
issues and and these are things that we can talk about a little later but we also have October 28th 1843 John C
Bennett publishes in the Iowa Hawkeye a letter where he talks about how Joseph Smith has received a revelation about
Eternal Marriage and plural marriage so see right there we have nine evidences
talking about a revelation all but the first one t mentioned that it's dealing with polygamy they're all
contemporaneous and and these are this is this is strong profenos for the the
Kingsbury copy of section 132 but that's not all we have other contemporaneous
evidences and and this comes back to the William Clayton journals and and we had
a a uh session at John Whitmer a couple of weeks ago three weeks ago at in St
George and there were several Church historians Robin Jensen was the lead and they were talking about the William
Clayton journals and how they're going to be published I thought they said next year it'll be two volumes if I remember
correctly and that might be right I thought I remembered 2026 but I've got yeah I I've got 2026 actually written
down I'm not sure okay well and it it may may well be but I I was interested that Michelle Brady Stone was there and
she heard them preach present and uh what they said was obviously we can't
guarantee anything you can't prove anything in in history but he said the
daily entries in his journal are clearly from navo Vu at that time they're describing things that are we can
corroborate from other sources this is a NAU Journal it's not something that appears to be constructed later because
if they you know because it correlate so well with with other things that are happening but but what we also find in
there are at Le least 20 references to polygamy to either William Clayton's polygamy or Joseph Smith's polygamy
because William Clayton is ascribed for Joseph and and and Clayton really didn't have a filter so some of them are kind
of kind of weird and some of them are hard for me to understand but during the Q&A I stood up and I I raised my hand I
said look we know people like Laurel Thatcher olrich and James B Allen were
able to look at this journal and extract things and publish them which they did um are there any real Revelations is
there anything about polygamy that hasn't already been published and I can't remember which of the panel
responded but what they said was that no pretty much except for maybe one sentence everything dealing with
polygamy has already been published and so I don't think when it comes out we're going to be able we're going to have any
big Revelations um the good thing about getting it published is that the critics who want to say that it's it's a
contrivance or something we'll be able to examine it and contextualize it and maybe strengthen their arguments or find
out their arguments really aren't very strong so those entries are important they're contemporaneous yeah okay so
there's quite a bit then contemporaneous that to Joseph Smith there what what about uh I mean would we expect anything
else how does this work as far as like people's journals of families what they they've kept as heirlooms and have most
of those types of things probably been turned over to the church and copies of those things you know people have looked
with a fine tooth com I think through the current uh Republic repositories including Church archives for this type
of data and I had I hope Jed doesn't mind me mention Jed Woodworth who who had worked on a number of these of
projects there he he pointed out to me like five years ago he says I don't think we're going to get any new documents on the topic of polygamy
except if they come from a private home or you know a private family private heirloom kind they that could be the
source but in the 11 years since I published my book nothing has come out there's been a handful of things I would
have talked about in the book that we didn't but there's no reason to create a second edition of it because there just
hasn't been much new that that has come out but on the journals incidentally we
have in H Joseph Smith's own journal and it's written in Taylor's shorthand but
leene kth if you've heard that name she works for the church but she can read Taylor shorthand very well but there is
an entry for June 12th of 1843 saying that Joseph Smith uh recording Joseph's
marriage to Roa Richards and also Willard Richard's polygamous marriage to Susanna lip liptrot now it's in Taylor
sham but it's there it's a plain entry and then we find in Brigham Young's journal for January 6th of
1842 that in Masonic Cipher there is a Joseph Smith was wed and sealed to Agnes
kber and then in Wilford woodis journal for January 21 1844 there's a a whole
section talking about parley Pratt being sealed to a plural wife and it's cross out okay so there's ambiguity there but
it's it's still there for that date and then we find in the lot Family Bible Cornelius and permelia lot we find for
September 20th 1843 an entry that talks about her being given in marriage but it
doesn't give the groom's name but later in the entry it calls her U Melissa
Smith and and she is on the list and she later testified she was you know a wife of Joseph Smith so so we do find uh
these types of of private entries that corroborate Joseph's polygamy and then we really should mention the Martha
Brotherton episode which which in uh brought Heber Kimble and Brigham Young
in Nancy Rigden episode Orson and Sarah Pratt John Bennett identified five of
Joseph Smith's uh plural wives calling them spiritual wives correctly used asteris to you know code them um Oliver
only wrote a book called The absurdities of Mormonism uh in 184 3 in March 3rd it
talks about very explicitly some of the things going on his private notes which we have and they've been published
identify wives like Louisa Beaman Agnes kth Emily Partridge and this is from
October of 1843 and then Thomas Bullock recorded a list of several of Joseph's plural wives
in in Joseph Smith's Journal but it's on the very last page and these may have been recorded as early as October of 43
or as late as 1845 so it could have been after but but again and and then we also
have a poem that was published in the warai messenger in 1844 in February
accusing Joseph of wanting more wives or being involved with polygamy so I me I'm going to stop there that's 20
contemporaneous evidences that Joseph Smith was involved with polygamy and and
I think the ones surrounding the Kingsbury copy of DNC 132 they're they're just they're just solid yeah
okay I think and and that's that's overwhelming evidence right there I think that's overwhelming evidence however I think that what what someone
denying Joseph Smith having polygamy is going to say yeah but where's the where's the evidence directly from
Joseph Smith right where where where is he talking about this specifically and there seems to be a little bit of a hole
there between Joseph Emma and and hyram Smith you've brought up a couple of things here especially looking at
132 but uh there is a void there right there's a bit of a void there because we don't have much documented from those
three individuals well I absolutely you're right I mean I wish we had Joseph's
signature at the end of the kingsberry copy or we had the Clayton copy with his signature on I mean that that would be
uh a better source and the critics they they have a good point here on the other
hand we have uh a document by Kingsbury who said he's copying a document from
Clayton who was writing down Joseph's words and and we have these eyewitness
testimonies of that that that's pretty good that's pretty good but let let me quote somebody know who I would consider
to be the expert on this topic right now is not myself um it's it's Mark tenm do
do you know that name I don't know that name Mark is an attorney I think he lives in Texas forgive me Mark if if I
get that wrong but he wrote an article or a chapter in the new Anthology that was edited by Cheryl Bruno that was
published by signature books a few months ago secret Covenant I think it's a title but Mark tenm in his chapter he
goes through and talks about the polygamy denier movement he he's the one
who called it monogamous model Advocates okay that's where that came from I'm borrowing that from Mark but here's what
he said about about Joseph Smith's documentation of of plural wives he said
this the the documentation of the prophet's polygamy is about what one could reasonably expect given the
circumstances of secrecy Smith's plural marriages are not any less documented
than other plural marriages of the time he rarely wrote in his own hand he relied on scribes to keep his records
and their records and their records indicate that he took plural wives and considering the
diversity of sources this helps us avoid cherry-picking okay that's that's what Mark wrote and I think it's a really
great summary of of why we may not really expect something that's secret to
to have as as good a documentation from Joseph as we'd like yeah there's also you know I
believe a very understandable current there or or or I don't know what
to call it but it's it's he is not going to want to divulge
this he's he's already in trouble constantly being thrown into jail in
court constantly to go out and have evidence actually brought out for him on
this is is is you know and again this isn't evidence that he didn't or that he
that yeah that he didn't but it it's understandable that he's holding off
because the narrative on this based on all these documents is showing that he
is in polygamous relationships but he is holding back on telling people even Emma
about them right he does not want to divulge this he doesn't want to make it public he's trying to do it very slowly
perhaps I'm sure there's something in his mind that is like how do I do this how do I actually reveal reveal this
there are documents talk about how he was he was you know he was and to some
degree ashamed to some degree uh uh concerned about what his very closest friends and family are going to think of
it no that that's a really good point and and the problem that he's encountering it's interesting I Greg I
can see a chess match between God and Satan throughout the 1830s we see Joseph
produces the Book of Mormon three years later the Solomon Spalding Theory shows up and and everybody jumps on that bandw
and actually the area of my my current study but but then we find in 1836
there's the Kirtland Temple and we see these incredible manifestations well the very next year you've got the Kirtland
safety society and Joseph has run out of Kirtland and then we get to navoo with with Joseph's teachings of Eternal
Marriage which includes plural marriage and who shows up John C Bennett with his spiritual wery if Bennett had showed up
a year earlier or a year later he wouldn't have near the impact on on what Joseph Smith had to do the the difficult
difficulty of introducing plural marriage at that time and and so yeah Joseph let's go into that a little bit I
mean people probably don't know about that but John C Bennett is running some type of a uh a a prostitution house in
NAU inside of navu and people are walking by going to church they see this
there and it's like okay now we're going to the the idea for Joseph of uh oh
people are going to conflate this with what John C Bennett is doing yeah um and
he had his version was very simple it was you can have sex as long as you don't tell anybody about it there was no
marriage ceremony people want to say Bennett was a polygamy Insider well he really wasn't because he wasn't doing
polygamy he was just having sex and keeping it secret so so lots of problems I wrote an article very long article
very boring article but on this somebody's interested in the Journal of Mormon history several years ago but
looking at Bennett's claims and comparing them to to Joseph's teachings and and they're they're they're highly
distinct they're very different but but I'd still like to go on Greg if you're okay I think there's more evidence that
we ought to present from sources be besides the Utah Church These are people
is that okay I I want people to understand go ahead no I was saying put it out there let's do it all right well
and and I've tried to just compile these to to show the other cherries on the tree so we can't just cherry-pick the
ones that that that we might like and and one of them is Leonard so so soie he was on the High Council he uh he wrote
an affidavit it's in 1886 so it's later but that doesn't mean that he can't remember right okay and he left the
church right he' left the church right he hadn't joined the arlis church he was just by himself but he wrote an
affidavit he named the names correctly of the other members of The High Council he talked about how Joseph or hyram came
in and and read a revelation on uh polygamy and he claimed that the the
Revelation that the uh the that the Scribe had there the section 132 today
was accurate I mean that might be a little hard to remember but but he corroborated the whole uh event of it
being read before the High Council Ebenezer Robinson left the church as well he left several accounts um he said
Ebenezer Robinson uh and my wife angelin Robinson hereby certified that in the
fall of 1843 Hyrum Smith Brother of Joseph Smith came to our house in NAU and taught us the doctrine of polygamy
and then in in 1888 he wrote a letter to Joseph Smith and we're going to talk about him more here in a minute but he
wrote this he said hyron Smith taught me the doctrine and told me and my first wife that he heard the voices of the
Lord give the Revelation on polygamy on spiritual urg urgings to his brother so
he's describing section 132 being given on on July 12th 18 uh 43 he's saying I I
saw Joseph receive this um again another convergence uh of of the historical data
um James Whitehead was ascribed for Joseph he told William Blair in 1874
that Joseph did teach polygamy and practiced it too and Emma knows it too that she put hands of wives in Joseph's
hand uh we have Sydney Rigden and this is after the martyrdom but rigon accused Joseph of being the originator and he he
had some insight or knowledge because of the um the the account with his his daughter and and we won't talk about
that here but and then we go back to Kirtland Eliza Jane Church web later left the church but she said I know that
in Kirtland that that ceiling of marriages commenced there or something like it um because that's what Fanny
alur told her so again we have these these accounts that that describe what's
going on in uh that Joseph was involved and then one last set of of data that I
think is quite interesting goes with Joseph Smith II and and some people want to believe that Joseph Smith III was was
this adamant Warrior against the idea that his dad was a polygamist and of course that was the the out outward uh
position that he took and yet if if and I'm grateful to to mark tenm for this because this is in his chapter but in an
the church the rlds church was organized in 1860 five years later the first
presidency which is led by Joseph Smith III and his one of his counselors is William Marx now William Marx was was
the president of the navu stake and was present when the Revelation was read by
hiron so here we have another person who knows firsthand what's going on William Marks here here's what the entry says
the question arose whether Joseph the Martyr taught the doctrine of polygamy
president Marx said brother hyam came to his place once and told him he did not
believe in it and he was going to go see Joseph about it and if he had a revelation on the subject he would
believe it and after that hyram read a revelation on it in the High Council
and he marks felt it was not true but he saw the council the council receive it
again another corroboration from somebody who was there it's later okay we're talking
1865 but corroborating that there was a revelation it came from Joseph it was about polygamy and someone just like a
William law who who would have every reason well they've got a reason right
to be against to to to be against Joseph and every reason in that case with the
rlds to say that there was no polygamy with with Joseph Smith yeah it it it's here's here's
somebody who's not anti anything but anti- polygamy but he's admitting to it
yeah um yeah so and but what's also interesting is that in 1882 Joseph Smith
II and I like Joseph Smith III I don't know that I can trust everything you wrote and we'll talk about that in a
minute and and I'm not here to denigrate him or anything but uh but the the data is pretty clear here in 1882 he writes a
letter to his uncle because he hears his uncle is going to write a biography of
Joseph wouldn't that have been cool I mean if William had written it we would have some really good stuff that we
don't have on Joseph's you know early life and things but he's going to write this now here's what Joseph Smith III
writes to his uncle William I have long been engaged in removing from Father's memory and from the early church the
stigma and blame thrown upon them because of polygamy okay that's his that's what he's doing but then he
writes if you Uncle William are the wise man I take you to be you will fail to
remember anything contrasting that lofty standard of character so here we find
him saying that we're trying to get rid of this idea of polygamy and you shouldn't remember anything like that
and William was involved and Joseph actually set up a plural marriage for him in navu and he had several wives and
then gave it all up when he when he left when Jo after Joseph's death and then one more letter Joseph Smith
III now this is later this is the early 1890s we don't have the year exact but Joseph Smith III is writing to EC brand
EC brand is an rlds missionary in Salt Lake City so he's hearing all of the
talk about Joseph Smith's wives and seeing what's published and all well Joseph Smith II third writes this yours
from Provo of Jan Oh I guess he's living in Provo sorry but he's in the area yours of from Provo of January 6 was
received and I have been getting used to contemplating my respective stepmothers
and possible half brothers and sisters I asked you to look after the limbs of the family tree I wanted to see if they were
akin to the root and if you can find any more mothers or aunts and can do so get
just just get proofs proofs anything that is offered so we see here he's
acknowledging in a private communication but we have the document in his hand handwriting that he knows his father was
a polygamist and then the last one on this is in 1903 he's having a discussion
through the pages of a of a nationwide publication called The Arena it looks like a quartery and and Joseph Smith III
is the president of the rlds church in in Iowa and his cousin Joseph F Smith is
president of the Utah church and they kind of get along they kind of don't get along they're both formidable I mean
these These are really charismatic individuals and they're writing back and forth on the topic of of polygamy and
here's what Joseph Smith III wrote in 1903 he said the chief contention of the
reorganized church and the sons of the Prophet Joseph Smith is not that he was not a polygamist so he's not arguing
that Joseph didn't do it he said but that the dogma and practice are contrary to scripture ancient and modern and
wrong so we see I see kind of an evolution that that he is learning and there's
there's other evidences that he was told by a um William Clayton by uh Agnes krth
he there are other evidences that Joseph Smith the third clearly knew his dad was a polygamist and here we find him
acknowledging that fact despite the fact that it took the rlds church until the
1980s to actually uh acknowledge that that that was the case is one of those
Witnesses is that where the the the correspondence I think it was of of uh
I'm talking about when they were young and they they had visit someone had visited the home of the of of Joseph Smith and Joseph Smith III said they
said about these other two women who are they and he he said oh those are my my dad's wives isn't that right yeah yeah
that's I I I wish I had that here I I forgotten about that there they they said Joseph Smith the third was a tease
he would tease them all but but they had somebody over and they and he informed the the visitor that these were his
dad's wives so yeah so again he he knew he did know okay yeah and it's and the
another thing is at by this point I mean he might be thinking okay there's so much evidence coming through with all of these these letters with all these
affidavits it's it's this is all transpiring over the decades and and it's it I think it's it's like okay it's
overwhelming I can't keep pushing back on this well I I just appreciate his cander
in in the in the letters at least that were were seeing there um and and we
could go on I mean at this point we could look at the Utah evidences we could go to the affidavits we could go
to the temple lot depositions we could look at Andrew Jensen's private notes or is published article on plural marriage
all of these have again testimonials from eyewitnesses and I don't know if
you're able to put it up but I sent you a QR code that people can download from the internet a compilation of over 70
eyewitnesses that um yes there it is if they can if you want to just take a
picture of that QR code you can download it's it's a lengthy document and I haven't edited it but it's just a lot of
quotes um from more than 70 individuals with over 130 accounts of Joseph Smith's
personal involvement with plural marriage and U again if if you're interested in that you can download that
yeah do we want to go back to the timeline here a little bit show people oh yeah I forgot yeah just the
provenance of section 132 we talked about contemporaneous evidence but if you look at this this document what we
what we find here is that the uh the Revelation was kept by n k Whitney and
Willard Richards made his own copy we don't know when um and uh then in 1847
Brigham Young asks to have the copy and so no K Whitney's going to give it to
him but he asks his son Horus to make a copy of the uh of the Revelation which
he does and there's two Horus Whitney copies at the church history library and so we've got those copies as well and
then Brigham Young takes it and publishes it in 1852 and and like I say once it's
published we William Clayton is still alive kingsbery is still alive and they're telling everybody that this is
this is what Joseph SMI Smith spoke and and so the we the conspiracists have got
to come up with some uh you know explanation for how we have these eyewitnesses anything short of
bald-faced lying telling us that this came from Joseph Smith's mouth and and so the proven Nots really is very solid
uh on that document now on the on the kingsberry pages as those were turning I
didn't see a lot of scratches like you said there's very little editing you know one of the claims I've heard is that there was a lot of change from
Brigham Young that he had exed out a lot of things and added in a lot on Section 132 that it's mostly his writing or a
big portion of his writing is there anything to that no it's wishful
thinking on the part I think of the denialist because the document is there you can you can look at it we have
samples of Kings Berry's writing that you can compare it's it's all there um
again the uh these eyewitnesses short of being bald-faced Liars are are giving us
a really solid document showing Joseph Smith practiced uh plural marriage and
and you know I I don't know very few documents have as good a provenance as
as this Kingsbury copy of section 132 and we also had here did you want to
go over this one also um yeah yeah let's do that in fact Le let's go back to the
five methodologies that that this author identifies for the denialist approach
the first one was cherry-picking so what I've tried to do is just provide so many other cherries to to illustrate that if
we want a plausible counternarrative St Joseph didn't do polygamy we've got to account for all of these other
convergences and evidences um and to avoid the accusation of cherry picky um
the second thing involves conspiracy theories the denialist approach has
usually some conspiracy theories and sometimes it's it's absolutely necessary because you've got to explain all the
the counter the counter narrative somehow and and and describe why these
men and women would say the things that they say and the conspiracy theorist will sometimes say well brigam was
threatening them with you know excommunication or something like that and so these people are all banding
together and making up this narrative that we're going to say Joseph did it but we all know he didn't and um if you
want to show that document now um the reason I I I put this on why I shared
this with you is this this is Don Brad finding um and it's really a cool
document if you look at the top part you see the handwriting changes about middle Midway the top is written by Andrew
Jensen now my friend Don Bradley's doing this research for me back in 2008 or 2009 but he's looking at this going that
handwriting change who is writing the bottom half of this list of Joseph Smith's uh wives and he he's trying to
figure it out he goes to to um um Andrew Jensen's Journal he knows he's talking
to Melissa lot a plural wife he's talking to Eliza snow and and he arranged for me to be there when Jill
dur Jill dur is a church historian she's now retired but she's an expert on Eliza snow and she she looks at that for me
she goes yeah that's Eliza Snow's writing so what happened is he's he's writing down these this he's creating a
list of Joseph Smith's plural wives and at some point he just takes the paper and hands it to uh to Eliza snow now
this is 1886 okay Brigham Young has been dead almost 10 years
and and she is over 80 Eliza is over 80 so what we've got to do if we're going to explain how Joseph really wasn't a
polygamist is explain why Eliza snow in this setting is going to lie again and
again and again and create this list of 10 or 12 additional names for Andrew JY
and you'll see Fanny aer's name is right on there as a wife and of course she was there in Kirtland Eliza was and knew
Fanny alar so she adds these names and and again I don't think that there is a
real solid uh counternarrative I I don't think the conspiracy narrative Works to
explain why people would do what they are doing here how this diverse body of evidence could manufacture so many
interconnected narratives from anti-mormons apostates Utah church
rlds and and and and they all are telling the same story that Joseph Smith introduced and practiced plural marriage
yeah so for me you know I I don't know that I hav sometimes a problem with a conspiracy theory as long as the
conspiracy theory is short-lived and then there's evidence brought forward that says something different we've seen that happen several times the problem I
look at this and this is one of the things I say you you know again there there are places to look I think even
Jacob 2 scripturally is a little ambiguous and and and I can understand how people would take a different take
on that and you know but but the idea that there is all of this evidence all
of these affidavits all of these journal entries all of these documents that we have from the church from church history
and that they are all false or or they are all you know as you said uh Brigham Young is going to excommunicate anybody
who doesn't doesn't uh you know fall in line with the The Narrative that Joseph
Smith practiced polygamy the problem is is that I don't know and maybe there is something but I I don't know of a single
document I've asked several people anywhere in history that goes outside of that and says hey I
was a plural wife I've left the community as an example I've left the community and I know that Brigham Young
was putting this all together and telling us all that we were you know coercing us all to do this and uh and
and actually Joseph Smith never did practice polygamy I I don't know of anything anywhere that that slips out
from that that bubble right that that says the opposite
and you would it's almost certain that you would have several examples of that does that make sense yeah well I
appreciate it you actually asked Michelle Brady Stone on on that program if there had been anybody who had
spilled the beans so to say and say no this was a Bram young conspiracy and and let me quote Mark tinme he said
fortunately for historians people especially large number of people are notoriously bad at
keeping secrets and and I mean I none of the conspiracists later came out and
said okay Joseph didn't do it it was all brigam that that that nobody said that
and and I think that's that's further corroborating the the reality that I that he he was the one who originally
yeah and that's to me is where I can appeal to something I can appeal to common sense that to me is a common
sensical issue that you're going to have several of those types of examples that
that you're going to be able to pull from and and I don't and maybe something will show up I don't know but I don't know of any that that claims that uh
Brigham was lying and coursing everybody and and and telling everyone that Joseph Smith actually did practice polygamy
when he didn't the uh the third uh
characteristic or methodology of the denialist approach is
how they deal with experts and the according to the book they they rely on on less qualified if
you will experts and they criticize or ignore or mock the real
experts and uh you know I can show you there this book is is written by Larry
Foster who who looked at he's not a Latter-Day Saint he's a well-respected historian he's president of the Mormon
history Association president of the John Whitmer historical Association um he's ignored in their literature I
haven't seen anybody who cares about talking about him uh Todd Compton's book and sacred loneliness Todd's a friend of
mine we don't see eye on everything but uh he's a very fine historian again these are experts that really receive no
no attention from this group and yet these are people that that they ought to I think be paying attention to and maybe
you would consider me an expert and I I sent you a link to a a video that was
made about me and it's quite entertaining and that's why I thought maybe you you'd want to play it it's
only 50 seconds long we'll just play the intro and then I'll explain the context but but it just kind of shows you there
that uh I I I don't think I'm being respected at least I don't know we let
them decide but people call me an apologist and I get it but I wish they'd
call me a transparen transparency is transparency
is is hail as a world's number one transparency is but
dels someone put some this is transparency is he's the world's
worst transparency is I'll go through my list and give you
worc I love transparency bring on transparency on today's Adventures of
the world's worst transparen Brian C Hills discusses Emma's final deathbed denial of Joseph's
polygamy from her interview with her son Joseph Smith III um I mean that that's a
clever that that's that's a pretty clever thing I I uh pretty well done um
when I was in high school and college I played in a band and and if you listen to the track I mean there's a Bass track
there's a a drum track there's a rhythm guitar I think there's a Lee guitar um
and then you've got the the audio the singer is a much better singer than I've ever been and they had to make up the
lyrics and make them rhyme and then bring in all of the visuals and uh you know I I think she's taken this down I
think she received some negative feedback um and in her defense what it's about is that that in a an interview on
Saints unscripted I misremembered a data point I I I claimed that there were no
notes for Joseph Smith III's final interview of Emma talking about the
polygamy topic and and apparently there are and Michelle found them good for her because I had collabor uh I had I talked
to the archist at Community of Christ to try to find them they couldn't find them for me I'm still wondering if the uh
actual first draft of of the notes from the interview was really types set ready
I I worri that there's still another draft in there we don't have but um but there are indications that this could be
it and so I was wrong I made a mistake and that's why I am the world's worst
transparen and of course the word transparen is is a madeup word but what it means is that I think we need to get
all the documents out there and and let everybody read what they want and then
they can decide for themselves what they want to conclude you see the opposite of that are people that that just grab the
evidences that support the the conclusion they want to persuade you to embrace see see there's a spectrum there
transparency on one end and persuasiveness you know agree with me on the other and and I it's it's kind of an
annoying term in fact my my sweet wife Jenna says I can't even say that word so you know but it's transparency is it
just means that you're you're advocating transparency and and as a Believer let me just add one more thing that that
having studied polygamy and tried to see every known document on on Joseph Smith polygamy and also for the last 10 years
studied the origin of the Book of Mormon and how Joseph Smith was able to dictate it I believe that in transparency there
is plenty of room for Faith okay not everybody's going to agree I don't that illusion but there's lots of room for
people to hold religious belief if you're getting the data directly and not filtered through me or an anti-mormon or
or somebody else so yeah well and you do a very good job of that honestly you are a pretty good transpar transparency is
I've gone through your stuff and you put you put stuff out there that I know is going to make people uncomfortable too
so it's you're you're you're pretty open on it thank you I appreciate that um the the fourth uh method ology is that they
commit logical errors and and we can spend a lot of time talking about that because it's kind of subjective but I I
have an example because there are people who are saying in na Vu that Joseph Smith was fighting polygamy but he just
couldn't quite be successful those Renegade Apostles you know they were just doing their own thing and poor
Joseph he just couldn't get them to stop and I think that that is a fallacy uh to
believe that I think it's inaccurate and and Benjamin Johnson said this about Joseph okay he said although he could be
so social and convivial at times he would allow no arrogance or undo
Liberties and criticism even by Associates and this was rarely acceptable and contradiction would Rouse
in him the lion at once for by no one of his fellows would he be superseded or
disputed now this is Joseph in in NAU but and this is not a a complimentary
description really it sounds autocratic and and and there are others that that kind of now we have the other side of
him too that he's so caring and empathetic but um what I'm I'm seeing here is is not a Joseph Smith that that
would have let the apostles run off and practice polygamy and he couldn't get a control on it to me that is a logical
error that that just doesn't the evidence is not there to support it and the counter evidence and and logic and
common rationale would would tell us that no this really isn't going isn't what happened there um they they may say
that that Joseph Smith denied polygamy and I've written an article and you've got a QR code actually for that article
if people want to download it because a few years ago I I heard people say Joseph was denying polygamy all the time
so I said okay let's just compile them all let's compile all of the denials of Joseph Smith and there were so few that
it didn't make for a full article so I decided to pull in Emma's denials and also um
let's see that's the El of snow document we're seeing or is it no you've got it I'm sorry I'm I'm seeing the wrong one
um but so I pulled in hyon's denials and Emma's denials and I'm not worried about Joseph's denials there's enough
ambiguity in there to allow for him to be not lying but at the same time he's
not divulging secret polygamy but Emma and Hyrum both made statements it's like dudes you I think you know that that
that is not exactly accurate so but but the uh what we find in Joseph Smith is
that despite the denials however we want to characterize them and Promises to root Out secret polygamy they simply
don't align with his actions he conducted no investigations after the Bennett incident in 1842 no individuals
in the NAU area faced any consequences for involvement with authorized plural
marriage and so I I think we just need to use the the data and and use it in a in a logical fashion and then the fifth
and the final methodology ology involves the uh uh they set an impossible standard
for contradictory evidence and I think you encountered this in your previous interview because it's true that there
are people who said they saw a copy of of section 132 but it was only one page
or it was only three pages so we see this discrepancy there and and we also can point out that Emily Partridge said
she was married sealed to Joseph Smith by James Adams on a date when James Adam Adams wasn't in navoo so what do we do
do we just throw out the whole evidence well of course we don't um but we just recognize that the historical record is
not going to be complete there's going to be contradictions there's going to be inaccuracies there's there's going to be
ambiguities and we have to take everything and bring it together and I think when we do that there's just no
question Joseph Smith introduced and practiced um um plural marriage so I
appreciate you letting me going through all five of those but I see in this movement that's denying Joseph's Miss
involvement with polygamy I see them involving themselves with with cherry-picking the evidence with with
conspiracy theories with Reliance on Experts that really have never published in a peer-review journal H and and doing
an ad home inum on on some of those that have spent a lot of time studying this uh they the the logic sometimes is hard
to follow and then lastly just the standard of of of evidence that they demand for the contradictory evidence it
seems to be quite different from that that they're using for themselves it seems like their own evidence may be
examined with a telescope but but the contradictory evidence is examined with a microscope or something like that now
I'm not saying they don't have good points I don't want to sound too critical of this but when we get the big picture there there's just ample
evidence I think to show Joseph was involved yeah and I said this I don't know if I said this in the interview with her but you know having the
comments you know I I'm actually very impressed by how far she's dug into this all the research that she's done
information that she's pulled up I wish all of us would do more of this whether it's history or digging into the scriptures you know and so I admire that
I think that's great that's one of the reasons I brought her on because I knew she had done so much uh on this it's
just the conclusions I don't agree with I just don't agree with the conclusions that she's that she's uh she's coming to
you know I'm thinking that Brian here something that's coming up here uh in my mind here I don't know it it uh so I
haven't thought this through let me think here um yeah this should be Rel what are there
any uh women that practiced polygamy that were sealed to Joseph Smith that
kept the Smith name or were they all sealed to somebody else afterward that's a great question
in fact the answer is kind of interesting um I I'm not sure about all of the wives but I can tell you that
after uh Emma Smith's denial that was published in 1879 um months after her
death after Emma Smith's death um Eliza our snow said that if if that's really
what she wrote um she died with liel on her lips and from that moment forward
Eliza R snow started signing her name Eliza R snow Smith okay so she she
picked up Joseph's last name from that point forward which which is just interesting yeah that's interesting it
would be interesting to find that out right have any of these women held on to that Smith name even just for a while
until they were sealed or married to somebody you know married to somebody else it would be uh seems like another
data point there to uh yeah good point to look at so uh okay any other anything
else that you wanted to bring up in this Brian at all that you think is is pertinent and and important to to state
I I want to say this right I I think there are a number of people that uh are
kind of jumping onto this bandwagon with with denying that Joseph Smith ever had polygamy I think this has probably been
it has been around for a very long time um I I understand I understand the the
uh that some people are going to feel the the repulsion to this and it's going
to be a main motivator to look into it deeper um and I don't think anybody that
believes that Joseph Smith didn't practice polygamy has a
problem in judgment right I don't mean their own judgment I mean in the Judgment you know going into the next
life I it's not a big deal the only issue I have on on related to that
is is it going to lead to an undermining of the prophet's mantle of the church
and a belief in the church and and and also especially going back to Brigham Young you know and in his character and
who he was and what he believed you know and that's the problem I have oh oh and more the temple right because these are
all overlapping issues here and and and and so those that has happened I I see
this spectrum of know that the uh the interview with Michelle I think there's
like 3,200 comments on it so you get a really good data collection right of
where people are and you've got this spectrum of those that look I am a firm Latter-Day Saint I believe that
President Nelson is a prophet I just don't believe that Joseph Smith practiced this all the way to the other end of you know you're a brigite I can't
believe that you believe that you know briam young put together this cabal and
uh president Nelson you know is not a prophet and the church isn't true because Joseph Smith's gone so you get
that whole Spectrum there but uh I don't think that it's it's valuable to attack
individuals because they have a belief that Joseph Smith didn't practice polygamy uh I do believe that we need to
be careful on those other issues and and and where that can lead well you bring up a good point um
there's that saying that you when you pick up a stick you pick up both ends MH
and people can saywell I just don't believe Joseph did it the problem with that and I'll be honest with you I think
people who who Embrace that as as a belief have have entered a halfway house
to apostasy I mean they're at the way station on their way out and let me tell
you why because they usually believe polygamy is just bad and wrong but they
also have to deal with Brigham Young John Taylor Wilford Woodruff okay
Lorenzo Snow Joseph Smith all of these people the first Joseph s Smith they all knew Joseph and the and the all but
Joseph s Smith knew and reported that Joseph taught them about polygamy and and so they all I mean
they're lying that's the only that's the only conclusion you can come up with they're lying and so what you have to do
is except Joseph was a prophet and everybody after him is lying about polygamy but but they're still good prophets I can still follow them that
that I don't think is a a livable paradigm I think you I think that's a
problem I think in time faith that tries to manipulate that picture to be a a
useful way to grow closer to God it it's going to break down and they're going to be out of it be and what what more is
usually the message is and I and I heard this the other day in that in that uh interview that you did was that polygamy
is so bad for women it is so heartless it is so mean uh for women that Joseph
wouldn't have done it and God would never uh require it now I've heard that many times before and I don't disagree I
don't like polygamy I I heard you say multiple times you don't like polygamy men can do it women can't it's unfair I
would never try to defend it um but the reality is that we are just doing as Neil Maxwell said looking at the second
act of a three-act play and and what I say is that that right now today at this
moment there is a baby being born in Zimbabwe to abject poverty at the same
time a baby is born to privilege in Boston or to an LDS Family in Idaho and
and and yet we believe God is just in doing that well of course it doesn't appear just to us God can can do things
and we just don't have the ability to judge so the argument that that is made is that polygamy is so so mean and so
hard and it is I'm not disputing that but that that is a reason why Joseph wouldn't have done it or God wouldn't
have commanded it I don't find that to be very persuasive it's an emotional argument and I tried to bring that up it's an
emotional argument and that's okay to start something but but you can't stay there with just an emotional argument it
doesn't and and there's there's a logical fallacy there I mean again I think I brought up that you know Abraham
was asked to kill his own son Isaac and why would God ever put him through that you know Nephi was asked to kill laan
and why would he ask him to to murder uh it's there there are you know Brian
we're moving I think in our culture maybe even in the church culture into more of a place that we just don't want
adversity and we don't want we don't want uh uh judgment on on these things
and and and so I think we come more and more as we move on we in this culture we come more and more from that
position of well God is it's not the Justice God it's just the mercy God and
and therefore you know that's all he's going to give us is is wonderful times
of course look at Joseph Smith himself in section1 one and and what as as the Lord appears to him it's not okay let me
put my arm around you and I'm sorry you've had to go through this it's the exact opposite you know you haven't you
have you reached job have you reached who I am and you know adversity is a part of this now you know again that doesn't prove anything one way or the
other well it requires us to kind of Judge God which we can't do and then he
want he we're here to face uh noxious weeds and you know uh thorns and
thistles and and things that's that's what we signed up for when we agreed to fall with Adam and Eve and and and that
maybe this is part of that so I think we have to be really careful um you mentioned the temple and uh you know it
breaks my heart when I hear people talk about the temple kind of the way they do as uh because what we're seeing is is
unprecedented uh the changes that we've seen to the teaching portion of the endowment there uh in the last five or
six years are just incredible and one thing that that has been changed and I
think it's fine to talk about this but in in the opening part it says we hope you'll find Joy serving and worshiping
in the house of the Lord that word and worshiping didn't used to be there we were looking on it the temple MO is a
place to go and serve you know saviors on Mount Zion doing work for the dead but now bringing these temples closer to
us um what our leaders are trying to do is is help us to go there and to to
fortify ourselves spiritually and you know the promise of President Nelson in the last conference not last
week but before was that the Lord promises he will manifest himself to us in the temple and he says Ponder what
that means for you I mean these are incredible promises that that come from the temple and and when I hear people
who just don't feel the temple is all that needed for our our personal growth or or for work for the dead I I find
that uh unfortunate I guess is the best word to use yeah and you know it's and
the temple you know is not a Brigham Young invention it is it is uh comes
before that it's actually you know the whole idea of the temple has been around for a very very long time probably all the way back to Adam and Eve and and
it's uh at least the endowment so it's it is unfortunate that people separate
that uh and start to listen to voices that are starting to say well well
Christianity should have nothing to do with the temple you know the temple is Christianity the temple is Christianity
and and it is it is putting on Christ as you're going through the temple that's essentially what you're doing so you
know it's an interesting time and again I find it's fascinating that these three points of the rlds Community of Christ
teachings are are where we're these issues are coming up which is polygamy
brigam Young and the temple and and these are the primary you know targets right now of of those that
are you know of testimonies and and and you know Stones being thrown to the
church well you know there was talk about we can't trace the temple ceremony
back to Joseph I I do not understand that statement at all we we have books that are written that compile all of
them and I was just looking back it's in my other room which is a little library but but there have been full
compilations of all of the references to the temple endowments um Andrew ehat
wrote an amazing dissertation or was it a thesis Master's thesis years ago that
outlined all of this stuff and to say that this doesn't go back to to to Joseph Smith is just a naive position I
think and and let let me share one thing with you though that I found to be interesting you know we um we hear about
the Covenant path a lot do you know when the first person spoke about mentioned
the Covenant path and General Conference because I didn't grow up I've not heard this yeah did you ever hear a child I
don't remember it yeah yeah we didn't have it and so I looked it up you can do this online there's a a corpus General
Conference Corpus and you can search for phrases but it was 2007 that Elaine
Dalton first mentioned my favor yeah yeah and it had been mentioned in the
enine a year before by Elder Holland but here we it's I mean it's it's just bread
and butter Mormonism now you know last conference not a week ago half the 12
and two of the three first presidency mentioned the Covenant path the reason that's so important is where do we make
our covenants we make our covenant of baptism we get into the Covenant path but really that's all that we're doing
men get the priesthood and we knew we renew covenants each week with the sacrament but we don't really Advance
very far in the Covenant path until we get into the temple so people who minimize the importance of the temple
and these covenants um are not are I think are again they're just limiting
their own because there are five covenants that we make in the temple these are all out outlined on lds.org what they are and
and it's through those covenants made in the temple we bind ourselves to Christ in a holy place and and that is where we
gain spiritual power and uh again maybe this doesn't address the origin of these
but I think it's very well traced back to Joseph Smith yeah yeah well and again
I mean who gave bream young the endowment it's
um yeah Elaine Dalton I'm glad you brought her up I'm going to be with her in a couple of months I'm actually going to Egypt with her next year so um she's
one of my very favorites all time Brian thanks so much for your time I really appreciate your knowledge and and the
research that you do on this um I hope that people look at this and they can pull in all of this evidence we wanted
to open up the doors as much as possible on this evidence and and you'll probably going to have to go through this a
couple times a few times and pick up all the points that are on it because there's so much that's kind of the point
there's just there's so much evidence on this so appreciate your time very much and good luck on things you're you're uh
you're going to be going to here in in just a bit thank you so much I appreciate being on here Greg
