just another amazing conversation with my friend Bruce Porter on Egypt and the
latterday Saint Temple found within the Egyptian temples along the Nile
endowment enthronement the ritual Embrace at the veil some great information in this discussion of course
this episode is brought to you by the gospel on the Nile Cruz which Bruce and I are doing this September September
10th through 19th we're also doing another one in March 19th to 28th in
2025 but I would love to see you there in September you really should do this
trip it is a bucket list kind of a trip it will change how you see the temple you will learn so much about your own
Temple experience and you may never see the temple again in the same way go to
Quick media.com cwic media.com go over to trips and events scroll down to
gospel on the Nile to find out more we'll see you in
[Music]
Egypt right welcome to Quick show my name is Greg Matson and I am your host in this episode we bring back my good
friend Bruce Porter to talk about the temple and Egypt Bruce welcome back to
the show thank you great it's uh great to be with you again it's um exciting to
be with you now and I'm hoping to be with you in the future yeah we will we'll definitely do that um so I want to
talk about a couple of things here on on Egypt and the temples just an opening
question here why are the temples in Egypt so
similar to latterday latterday Saint Temples today well you have to go back in time
the um the Temple of Jerusalem is an ironic base Temple Moses the children of Israel
lost the mesic priesthood in the mesic order and so everything from Moses forward or
from the days of the patriarch uh or the patriarchal narratives are based on an ironic order
ironic Temple um Abraham in the book of Abraham it tells us that the first pharaoh is a righteous man and sought
earnestly to imitate that order established in the days of the first patriarchal Reign even of Adam would
indicate that the religion of Israel of Egypt the religion of Egypt is based on
a higher order than that of the children of Israel after the time of Moses so
that higher order is going to be a patriarchal order or a mesic order if you want to call it that um and so the
temples in Egypt are really centered around um greater Concepts um a deeper
understanding a more spiritual um concepts of exaltation
rather than becoming a a school Master as the law of Moses is
described so that's really interesting right because we we look at our Temple and we compare it most comparisons are
done with the Temple of Solomon right right so so we look through that and there are similarities of course right
you've got three different stages within the Temple of Solomon um you're going to the veil there's an there's an altar in
front of the veil the altar of incense you've got the Throne of God on the other side of the veil I mean there's a
lot of similarities that you see there but the ordinances that are happening
are are primarily I'm not sure totally but I they're primarily ironic priesthood
ordinances and the objects and everything around it in in in the temple
of Solomon are probably geared more toward those ordinances whereas you know as I I was
with you in Egypt last September you walk through those temples in Egypt and the focus is very obviously an
endowment a coronation even it's it's very obviously the full Plan of Salvation and
the progression of the individual primarily speaking of the Pharaoh going
through the temple toward exaltation isn't that right that's exactly right
because that's the highest that's that first pharaoh
pattern patterning the religion of Egypt earnestly after the order of the
patriarch or after the religion of the Patriarchs is one of exaltation I mean that's the
whole goal Joseph Smith made the statement when it comes to our basic Doctrine and it is the basic doctrine of
of which our whole religion is founded uh Joseph said God finding himself in
the midst of these Spirits prepared a plan whereby they could receive the same Glory that he has and that's what lies
at the foundation of the patriarchal religion or the ordinances that we participate in and and likewise the
ordinances of which the Egyptians participated in because that's the highest ordinance to become like God
that's the highest highest opportunity That's The Highest Potential the greatest potential that anybody has uh
is to become like God yeah so it it's what makes that so
fascinating to me is you can learn more about the temple
in Egypt our temple in Egypt than you can studying the Temple of Solomon I
would agree I we always focus on on the Temple of Solomon but we're focusing on a school master we're focusing on an
ironic order while while the temples in Egypt are are focusing on a higher order
a patriarchal order just as Abraham tells us there in chapter one of his
book now you go into the book of Abraham and
and and you learn about egyptus the mother of the first pharaoh I I was going through this again a couple of
days ago think thinking about your I think you've coined this the matal lineal
patriarchy and and thinking about that I was like wait a minute here now I understand this even a little more the
introduction of the mother with the Pharaoh is absolutely essential because in this
case number one it legitimizes their line but it also in the book of Abraham
distinguishes that line through that mother as the line that does not have the
priesthood it it does be and that's why egyptus is brought up in Abraham we know
right from the very beginning this concept of this matrilineal patriarchy The Matriarch always has the authority
to choose the patriarch because the patriarch has to be the one that opens the womb it has to be the the one that
opens the Matrix as described in the Old Testament and only the mother knows who her firstborn is and only the mother
knows who the father is and so the the patriarch is always
chosen by the by The Matriarch just as it was in the case of of Rebecca and I
you know um Jacob and Esau she chooses She Knows by Revelation and she is the
one that chooses Jacob it wasn't a deception she says the responsibility was hers in that chapter and likewise
The Matriarch determines the authority of the priesthood as we see in Abraham because h was married to egyptus that
family line could not hold could not have the rights of the priesthood I don't want to say hold priesthood but
have the rights of the priesthood and we see that even with Rebecca when she talks about Jacob she says of what value
will my life be to me if he marries the daughters of Heth meaning that if he
marries the daughters of Heth then her responsibility to carry on the abrahamic
Covenant of priesthood passing down to AB Abraham's posterity would be null and
void because that M matrilineal line is what's important even the Jews in the
Jewish Nation today within the Jewish culture you're determined your your
Jewish Heritage is determined by the matrinal line not the patriarchal line
yeah it's interesting I was in a kabad class A few months back and and you know there was a new Rabbi in there and he
says you one of the first questions he asked me is he says is your mother Jewish he's kind of suspect as whether
or not I'm Jewish or not yeah he says so so he comes in so I'm just you know do you have a Jewish mother and I said no I
I don't but that was the question right it was like are you Jewish yeah it was
all about the mother so it's always it's always matrilineal in my opinion and this is my opinion that the
the the Nativity that we always quote at Christmas time uh in Luke is not the
story of Christ it's the story of Mary to prove that he is the Christ every
king of Judah in the Old Testament at time of his coronation in the Old
Testament every king of judah's mother is mentioned at the time of their coronation and the story The Nativity is
the story of Mary to prove that he is the Christ that's why Isaiah prophesies
of the mother of Christ a virgin shall conceive that's why in The Book of Mormon a couple of times it turns up
that The Virgins uh shall be pure and white and her name shall be called Mary
you're going to recognize the Savior by virtue of the matal line yeah yeah and I
have a little issue with that I'm I'm very much uh a fan of the Margaret Barker tradition and what she talks
about and and that gets brought into the Book of Mormon in a lot of really positive ways one of the things I
disagree with is a lot of Scholars now they then look at that tree of life especially in second NE in first Nephi
11 and they say well the tree of life is the is mother in heaven and and I think
well look I understand the tie with ashra and and the divine feminine fine I
get that Mary is described in first Nei 11 is white and pure kind of like the tree is fine I get that also and I think
that they are combined but to me if you read first Nephi 11 the whole chapter is
about Jesus Christ yeah and it's about his condescension and it's the same idea
you have to legitimize Christ and who he is as a davidic king through the mother
right and so Mary is mentioned in there with him and that tree yes I do believe
the tree represents both in a sense right it's if you look at and I'm sure you you've seen this if you look at uh a
number of uh you know Egyptian art and carvings and and inscriptions you have
uh it's usually Isis hather or or in a tree going you know greeting
other individuals that are going down into the underworld as Anubis brings them through and then on the other side
you've got a woman in a tree also I don't remember if it's Isis or not that that it has them kind of coming out the
other side of the underworld in a tree right so I think that there is a tie
there but I think it's overdone in terms of an understanding it's the the loss of the plain and
precious things is not a focus on a heavenly mother that's right loss of plain and precious things is Christ in
my in my view it's that's the center of these things and then what we've been talking a lot about lately is is the
restored doctrines of exaltation and and uh which I think ultimately is the
doctrine of Christ that's what it's talking about yeah no it's you're you're I think exactly right on on your ideas
about about the mother and it's it's the matrilineal line that legitimizes the
patriarchal line and this is why you see hathor and hathor Isis and all the Egyptian in many
of the Egyptian uh coronation ceremonies because haor is the first mother if you
go back far enough I mean if you want to study Egyptian mythology and where the
religion comes from from you have to go back as far in time as you can go and
you look at the myths at the beginning not what they are in the Middle Kingdom not what they are in the New Kingdom but
you go back to the very beginning and look at those traditions and those Traditions are is that
Egypt uh was as it says in Abraham discovered by haor haori is the mother
of the first pharaoh she's the mother of the first pharaoh and as Abraham says that Egypt was discovered by egyptus the
daughter of ham and afterward she settled her sons in it she legitimizes and so hathor who later in later
mythology Egyptian mythology becomes synonymous with Isis and is always
standing behind the Pharaoh with her hand on his shoulder she is the mother
that that that matrilineal line is legitimizing the pharaoh's right to
Reign and often you'll see the Pharaoh nursing on hathor is always uh depicted
as a cow or somewhat in the image of cow if it has a human face it'll have cow
ears the horns of Isis the horns are from the haor cow with the Urus or the
sun sunis in the center of that but but they're always legitimizing the reign of
of the Pharaoh they legitimize his authority just as they delegitimize the
priesthood Authority that Abraham's telling it's because of that same motherly line yeah that's what it seemed to me as that's the first time i' caught
that in reading it a few days ago is okay this legitimizes him as and the
line of the Pharaohs but it also gives you it
specifies that this is the line without the priesthood and that's a that's an important thing
right because in the stories that come later with with Abraham and Joseph and
and Moses it's the same thing it's like yes you've got a lot of the truth this
is built on the the patriarchal system that that Noah had
but um you don't have the say the the Christ necessarily in the middle of all
this and you don't have the authority and so you have the you know you have Moses for example who gets the
rod on SI that turns into a snake he brings that to the Pharaoh at at the palace and and his snake consumes the
magician snakes of the Pharaoh right it's like it's a it's a battle of priesthood right in a sense that's
happening there it is I mean it's it's it's
exciting when you begin to understand this this whole concept of the mother the matrilineal patriarch ham held the
priesthood you know Moses chapter 8 tells us that that Noah and his three
sons walked with the God he held the priesthood but it could not pass down because of that matrilineal line it was
there that that that the and the priesthood was not the priesthood was
not um or the rights of the priesthood was not eliminated from from those of a
dark skin but those who were descendants of of of
mhm see that was the Restriction was on the descendants of Cain not on the color of the skin or or you know that we often
attribute that Mark to but but it was and egyptus Abraham is telling us that
the egyptus was a descendant uh through which that that
burden came that they could not have the rights of the priesthood and so that posterity couldn't have it Abraham even
goes on to explain that the that they would Fain claim this is what he said vain claim
the rights of the priesthood through the lineage of their fathers and so every statue you see in Egypt where the
Pharaoh is alive and you can always tell when he's depicted alive because his one leg will be in front of the other one
foot will be in front of the other if he's depicted dead the feet will be together but but every statue that
depicts Pharaoh alive where where that left foot is in front of the other one
there will always be in his hand um a scroll that has his carou on it
and in his hand that will be by his side is that that's a piece of Papyrus that
has the lineage of his fathers it has his lineage on it it's
his we would call it today in the church what we used to have is what was called a line of authority and that Papyrus was
his line of authority that gives him the right to reign as pharaoh and that's exactly what Abraham is saying that they
would Fain claim the rights of the priesthood through the lineage of their fathers and that's depicted in every
statue every living living statue of of the Pharaoh in his hand in that red
Papyrus why do you think we don't do that anymore why why is the
lineage uh you know obviously we don't rule with a pharaoh or a king today but we did few hundred years ago and why do
we not worry about a priesthood in a lineage that is
anchored in a king and probably a queen to a certain degree but why why do we
not worry about that anymore why does that matter it seems so important anciently for you know it's got to be
Abraham Isaac and Jacob and that line right and then you've got Israel and and and with the Pharaohs even though it's
they Fain claim it they're claiming it and and they're doing it through that that line that matenal patriarchy why
does that matter so much back then well well I be because that was the
order of the Patriarchs and if you notice in Abraham it says he set up the government E of Egypt that Pharaoh that
first pharaoh being a righteous man set up the government of Egypt based upon the patriarchal order so the government
is set up based on that patriarchal which is matrilineal that's why Eve says I have
gotten a Manchild from the Lord that's why Sarah says I I'm choosing who the patriarch's going to be it's not going
to be it's not going to be Ishmael I'm the one who chooses so so that first
pharaoh sets the government of Egypt based upon the patriarchal order which is a matrinal
patriarchy and so we're we're dealing with that and we see that throughout the Old Testament what we call the
patriarchal narratives in the Old Testament is is really the description
of the rights of the priesthood or the authority of that priesthood coming down
through time until it reaches Christ the great high priest and that's why that's
why the lineage of Mary is in our new testament to prove that she is that
matrilineal line that's Joseph's lineage is there but he came through a line who was cursed by God from that line ever
being able to hold the kingship but it's matrilineal Mary's
line doesn't come through that same line of David the Joseph's does and Joseph's
line was curs pertaining pertaining to the rights of kingship but but but because Christ is born through Mary and
it's matrilineal he does have the right to kingship because it's matrilineal not patriarchal and so it was important back
then because the whole Old Testament is setting the stage for the birth of the king of kings
the matrilineal authority of the king of kings now and I don't know whether you
were indicating U at the beginning of this last little conversation here that
we used to have a line of authority that we'd always keep you know I have a line of authority that I was ordained by my
uncle who was ordained by his father who was ordained by so and so was ordained by so and so and you had a you had a
line you had a line of Authority for almost every every pried responsibility
that you had but that's and we've done right the church has done right and kind
of getting rid of that the line of authority is Peter James and John if you're talking about kesic or or or John
the Baptist if you're talking about ironic that's the line of authority now that line of authority from Peter James and John goes all the way back to
Abraham and from Abraham it goes back to Enoch you know or mesic and then back to Enoch uh but that's really the line of
authority is the line that Abraham has that's why in chapter two of Abraham it says that this right will continue in
thee and thy seed after thee the right for the to to bestow the blessings of
Salvation and life eternal upon all kindreds of the earth that's the line of authority now the line of authority I
had was I when I was ordained a high priest which in basically doesn't exist anymore you know I had who ordained me a
high priest and who ordained them a high priest and who ordained them a high priest all the way back to the all the
way back to Joseph Smith you know so but a high priest is just an office as an elder is is an office in the mesic
priesthood and so the line of authority is really mesic Authority not not the
office that I hold within the mezic priesthood The Authority lies within the mezic not within the office not being a
high priest or being an elder that's there's no line of authority there okay you have you know you had
brought up mythology before the Egyptian mythology and this is always interesting to me because there's Greek mythology
there's Roman mythology there's Egyptian mythology um you know atheists would say there's
Christian mythology but there's the mythology is looked at for us it's kind
of like we look back at at these ancient civilizations and we make it just more
into the stories of of their belief and certainly there's something to that but we have
stories that we follow we have myths so to in its true sense in the real sense
of the word that are very important to us and that convey great spiritual
truths when we talk about mythology in ancian civilizations aren't we really
just saying religion for them uh we are the the true
definition of myth is a true story of one's origins or
one's Beginnings that that's that's the technical real definition of the word
myth a true story of one's Origins now we've taken myth and try to connect that
to Fable yes there's a difference between myth and Fable myth myth we we
could talk about creation myths that's a true story of one's origin or beginnings
of the creation Now if you're going to talk about Fable now Fable is supposed to be an untrue story now we've just
kind of over the years in the past couple of generations we've taken the term myth and and and synonymized that I
guess that's the right word made it the same as as Fable and so we think it's it
has reference to an untrue story but myth is really to the people who believe
that and that becomes the religion that becomes the religion that because to them it's a true story of
their Origins and their beginnings and so we can talk about the creation myths
of of uh the indigenous people of North America uh the Native Americans we can
talk about creation myths in China or Japan or or Mesopotamia or Egypt but
those creation myths are the re are the basis the
foundation of those religions and so that to them it's the true story of their origin and their
Beginnings yeah so myth or mythology is the right term if we understand what it
really means right yeah it is it is the correct term and you know I have to watch myself when I write about creation
myths you know I to me myth is a true story of one's beginnings and you know and you put that in in an LDS in an L in
a in a book uh that's going to be read by church members and they think you're apostate by using by talking about the
creation M so you got to use epics and epics is even questionable then sure you talk about creation epics and so you
have to use creation accounts so how many are there you know then you go on and on now there are three prophets that
were all in Egypt that um all left a record for us and this is fascinating to
me because it appears
that Abraham you have Abraham Joseph and Moses they're
all focused on Egypt and even Moses is and and
it's they write from a perspective somewhat and sometimes completely
absorbed in Egyptian culture and symbology
and cosmology when you're talking about the book of Abraham um and this is the
restored scripture this this these are the scriptures that are the restored
scripture we've got the book of Abraham we've got the book of Moses and we'll talk a little bit about
the book of Joseph right this is all restored scripture that we have and it's all based in Egypt why do you think that
is does this have to do with again they don't have the Authority but but they
are modeled after the higher order they are Egypt was not only in the
ancient world was not only the economic capital and sometimes the military force within the Middle East but it was also
the religious force in the Middle East I mean it was there and I think it's because as Abraham says that first
pharaoh sought earnestly to imitate that order being a righteous man he sought earnestly to imitate that order and so
I don't think there was a better religion in the ancient world that depicted the Eternal Concepts that
Abraham was familiar with that Joseph was familiar with or that Moses was restoring there wasn't another there
wasn't even though we look at them and say Well they're Pagan and they have all of these different gods which is not the
correct understanding they're attributes of God of a of a Divine God they're attributes the uh they're just depicted
in ways that you can understand those attributes but but Egypt was the was the
center of the religious world and you can tell that on the temples even
anybody that conquered Egypt it doesn't matter whether it was Greece or the Persians or even Rome later on they
become Egyptian they put themselves in the temples they put themselves you know
Alexander the Great there in the in the luxer temple I mean he's placing himself
on the throne as Pharaoh receiving the same exaltation and so um Egypt
Egypt had a force had a religious Force throughout the Middle East that couldn't
be conquered no matter who conquered the country it didn't matter whether it was Nubia whether it was the hios whether it
was the Romans whether it was the Greek the Greeks uh Egypt had a religious force
that that overcame the whole Middle Eastern world so might we think of it this way I mean you might even say
obviously there's influence even within Judaism and the Israelites right because they've been there that's where they
they they were there for a couple hundred years or more they're they're brought out from there but that influence that cultural because culture
all comes from religion right and so that cultural influence in the Middle East from Egypt would kind of be an
umbrella and and what I mean by that is it's you are using it as a reference even though you disagree with
certain things you're using the Egyptian model as what you disagree with in your
religion right it would be it would be the the barometer uh for religion in the Middle East so to
speak and whether you're in Babylon or Assyria or Canaanites or others you are
you're you're seeing this and then you're you're reacting in a sense to this you might have different gods or
You' you've assimilated some or it's but there would be a reaction in a sense you've got Proverbs and Psalms that are
very Egyptian and almost word for word sometimes and and so it's it's brought
into the Old Testament but that it seems to me like I can see that right I can see how you would
have the religion of God
being you know wrapped around in the region with the religion of which has
truth a lot of truths to it with the religion of Egypt it is the the the examples of
Temple construction throughout the Middle East and this includes Israel under with the Temple of Solomon are
based there were no temples there were no temples in Israel before the Temple of Solomon you had you had the
Tabernacle but there were no temples in Israel with the Israelites before the Temple of Solomon but the Temple of
Solomon is patterned after an Egyptian temple it's what you would call tripartite it's um meaning there's three
different main areas it's also a straight axis where you walk through the front door and continue you go into the
holy of holies just like the Egyptian temple even the temple of even the construction within the Temple of
Solomon itself is patterned after an Egyptian temple with the center being higher and the sides being lower the the
way the lights came in in the temple of Solomon the same way that the light or the sunlight came in in the Egyptian
temples uh you had the Garden Room uh basically the hypostyle hall in the
Egyptian temples you had the the hcal or the holy place in in the temple of Solomon uh which depicts the the plants
and the and that are overlaid with gold and then you get into the hly of holies or the sacred spot and you have the Ark
of the Covenant that's carried by priests just like it was in the this
depicted in the Egyptian temples so yeah so but the Egyptian temples date back
long before Moses long long before Moses and so you see those symbols coming out
of that out of those truths that the Egyptians had and there's two basic
truths that that show up in the Egyptian religion the first the first is the is
the Redemption of evil the Pharaoh being worthy for exaltation and so you have the negative
What's called the negative confessions in the Book of the Dead even in the in the going back to the pyramid text you
have the negative confessions I didn't do this and I didn't do this and I didn't do this and I didn't do this and I didn't do this that's where we get our
eulogies from in our funerals trying to prove it goes back to the ancient Egyptian eulogies trying to say this
person's worthy for the second element and that is
exaltation that's him that's that's the Pharaoh having the right to become a God and so we we see the same thing within
our temples we have to have the Redemption of evil we have to be washed and pronounced Clean and Free from the
sins that beset the whole world or at least within our generation and so we have to be uh pronounced clean we have
to develop the right character that that's required in order to stand before God and be admitted into his presence
which we see in the Egyptian aspect too we and the end goal of the of an
Egyptian temple is the exaltation of the Pharaoh the end goal of our Temple is
our exaltation and so we see we see these same patterns these same Shadows even
within our own Temple there we have shadows outside every the things that we
participate in outside of the temple in our Wards I call it the all you all come church because anybody can come um the
things that some of the ordinances we participate outside of the temple are but Shadows of things on the
inside uh the anointing of the sick with oil um for the body to be healthy in
this life we do on the outside of the temple but on the inside of the temple we're anointed for our body to function
and the different parts of our body to function properly when they're resurrected in that first
resurrection see that's that that's that's a shadow we receive that seems very egyp ipan it is because the washing
and anointing is on the walls of every Egyptian temple it is and so we have
those Shadows we re we take Upon Our we get a naming and a blessing and take upon ourselves the name of Christ in the
temple we take we get a new name another name so there's sha the things that we
participate in are shadows which in the in in the all yall come church is is an
ironic church just like the Temple of Solomon was the Temple of Solomon was a
school Master for the mesic order order for the
mesic ordinances for the mesic blessings that's what the Temple of Solomon was to accept Christ to come unto Christ and to
become an heir and a joint Heir with Jesus Christ to receive all that the father has that's what the Temple of Solomon that's what our Wards that's
what our our Stakes are for that's why they're run our WS are run by the
president of the iranic priesthood in that area or within that Ward and we have the offerings of sacrifice
of of the sacrifice of the Pascal lamb that we participate in in our sacraments see that's an ironic
order and so we participate in this ironic order so that we can participate in a mesic or a higher order and that's
the order of exaltation and that's not an all y'all come church because you have to have a
recommend to get there and so we see the same thing that's taking place these same shadows in Egypt in Israel and as
well as in mes Amia as well as in Greece and Rome we see the same same concept showing up there because they all go
back to the Earth is Herodotus who was a u a Greek historian he says all of the
Egyptian gods come from the Greek gods and all the Greek gods come from the Egyptian gods going all the way back to Egypt and we can see some of those
Egyptian gods going back to the pre- deluvian the pre flood
Patriarchs so anyway yeah well you know
again just fascinating that that the the plain and precious
things you can find them back in history uh you can even find them in
archaeology you certainly find them in Egypt but the restored gospel brings
those things back and and they seem to be lost constantly those those two
things you talked about Redemption and you talked about
exaltation and and so to me I look at that and that is the doctrine of Christ
and and and and the doctrine of exaltation and the two things that I would say with that that that we lose
and you see this in the Book of Mormon the example of abinadi and and uh King Noah and other places and
it's it seems to me that the the loss of
Christ right what I call the knor principle but it's the loss of Christ seems to be rooted somewhat in the idea
that God who is all powerful would never
lower himself below all of us because that lowers his value and I
will not worship a god that is going to be that weak that
is going to be below all of us and take on all the burdens and come into mortality as a man and
suffer how can I possibly worship a god like this and
because I'm supposed I'm supposed to follow him oh I have to do the same
thing right I'm supposed to be doing the same thing in in lowering myself and and condescending the sense
of bearing others burdens and and and and following his path that he taught
that's one thing so it's the bringing of God down which is half of atw onement or the atonement and then the other side is
the exaltation how can I as a man be exalted this is
blasphemy right so me actually going up to that position where instead of him coming down to us it's like me reaching
up and becoming that is Blasphemous also
and and and therefore we're going to get rid of that and so we lose the true idea
of redemption and the atoning sacrifice and the condescension that we
get in first Nephi 11 and and then the idea of exaltation is lost and we pull
those two things away and then we end up with well teddy bear Jesus we end up
with you know kind of what we get mainstream Christianity today it is in in the Book of Mormon it shows to me it
it appears that there's two goals that Satan has that keep showing up in the Book of Mormon as well as other
scripture but mostly The Book of Mormon and that is Satan's goal Satan couldn't take the place of Christ but he wanted
to do away with the necessity the atonement the necessity of Christ and the second thing is that Satan tries to
do is destroy the nature of God now if you if you understand those two concepts
or if you look at those two different ideas destroying the nature of God who he is and who he was and how how we can
become like him and destroy the necessity of the atonement you can see that Satan's had great success among all
the religions of the world because the nature of God was one of is is lies at the foundation what of
of doctrines that separate us from the rest of of the Christian world and that
Christian World believes in the Nan Council the Nan uh concept of of Trinity
they're the same but everywhere nowhere they have no physical body so Satan's done and even even the modern
Evangelical Christians fall onto what they call traditional Christianity which
falls back and harks back to that Nan Council in the nature of God so Satan's had great success in destroying the
nature of God now so far as the necessity of the atonement he's had great success there because if you all
you have to do is say I Believe In Christ and I'm saved without changing my character or
doing anything else then he succeeded there or if in the in the in some of the
older Christian U European faiths uh if you just pay enough indulgences or go to
confession you you still don't have to change as long as you've paid your indulgences go go to confession or go
through the doors on the Jubilee year which is yourself yes so so Satan has
succeeded in those two in those two goals in destroying the nature of God
and destroying the necessity of atonement Each of which Each of which are intimately connected with the
concept of exaltation because as as as man is God
once was as God is man may become that's the nature of God but to do that it's
character-based which tells us that we not only have to come under Christ but we have to become like Christ and that's
that's the whole purpose of the condescension of of God is show is showing us he becomes he becomes human
even though he's God but he's human to tell us to show us that it can be done
that we can begin that process but with the resurrection and the atonement and grace and mercy we can continue on on
that road until we reach that exaltation which which is the opposite of what Satan's trying to do in destroying the
necessity of the atonement which is to change character repentance is the process of
changing character and that's key to the atonement and the nature of God which is
exaltation yeah um and then you and I have had discussions on this on the side before and it it just seems to me that
even within the church right now we are we're losing those two things we are
right I mean culturally it it's you know repentance is not
punishment repentance is changing right and and exaltation
is you know if you want a fulfillment of joy and purpose it's exaltation and if
you don't want that okay but that's your choice but you're you're not going to have the same fulfillment and the same
joy that and and you get to choose that and we seem to be choosing something else or at least moving toward that
which is um I don't want to make the sacrifice I don't need to change and
everything will be fine which in the scriptures is defined something as kind of like you know if you you know you can
sin a little bit here and there dig a pit for your neighbor and Etc and you'll still be okay A little slap on the wrist
and you're fine yeah it's a it's a it's a very scary thing to to think
that we don't have to change the The Book of Mormon is replete with the phrase that no unclean thing can dwell
in the presence of God it's just over and over and over again and the scriptures tell us what's unclean and
what can't dwell there I mean Paul lists lists lists what he says are the if we
want to call them sins I don't know whether we want to call them sins or not I I don't like the word sins because sin just means you miss the mark but Paul
lists things that will keep a person out of the presence of God and so today there's a there's a
whole there's almost a generation that's growing up right now that thinks emotion
that that believe that emotions and feelings can determine Eternal truths and that just can't happen
because exaltation is character-based and character is agency
based and so we have to choose to become clean we had to choose to leave the
presence of God to come to the Earth we have to choose to go back to the
presence of God we have to make those choices so it's agency based in both
directions coming to Earth and then going back to his presence but God has provided a perfect plan so that we don't
have to go back to his presence if we don't want to yes we make that we to exercise the agency yeah all right back
to Egypt here Memphis it's like this Hub it was the capital uh I believe we've
got the shaca stone there right isn't that where coming from Memphis Yeah okay we got the Shabaka Stone coming from Memphis the the oldest found uh uh what
would you call it inscription uh writing I guess is it in the world yeah the oldest
written document in the world is the got Shabaka Stone you're saying that Abraham
this is where Abraham went he went to Memphis uh Moses grew up in Memphis and
by the way the story of Moses you've also got the mother who's involved letting off letting her him off into the
basket in the Nile and then you've got the other mother so to speak which is Egyptian which would not have the
authority or the lineage it's just that's very interesting when you look at it that way yeah but and then you say that Joseph was there also this is where
Joseph would have been and and I've heard you say that this is where the they've actually found the prison that
that Joseph was in is that right they have all all three of these all three of
these great prophets were trained grew up or lived in in in in Memphis area at
least Moses grew up there and was trained there um Joseph he becomes the vazer that was the capital of Egypt at
his time um and it was the capital of Egypt when Abraham was there and so all
three all three of them lived in Memphis which was the the great white wall city
of Egypt and they did and a few years ago they discovered the
um uh the prison on the it would have been on the West Bank of the Nile they
discovered the prison that was there um and you can even today from certain areas you can get down into it it's
underground under the sand right now but they discovered the prison that Joseph was in uh they've dated it back to that
particular time period of Joseph and so that would have been the prison at the time of Joseph so a lot of these
things and a lot of the religious structure of Egypt comes from Memphis
from the very first pH and that's the Shabaka Stone you're talking about it's the oldest written document of the world
and it was a play that was to be acted out in the temple of many the the first pharaoh um and it's written with stage
directions uh dialogue um telling you who enters from the left and who enters from the right
and what they're supposed to say when they do and it's a it's a temple drama of the prear life the creation and
choosing the and it says in the text is most beloved Son to be the Rooter over
this newly created world yeah that that's all just that's all fascinating
that that's amazing and then this is where the statue of ramsy is correct it is where the they they found two of them
one of them went into Cairo but the other one is is there in Memphis right now and Memphis was huge it was a
massive City but uh it's all underground It's all under the houses that are the
modern day houses that are there now they've they've preserved some of the downtown area or
the uh the governmental and religious Center and there where the statue of Ramsay is they've got it fenced off but
most of the city is underground okay so I want to go to the book of Abraham now then I'm going to read the summary to
the book of Abraham and give me an idea of what you interpret the what Joseph
bought right uh from it was Chandler right he bought Chandler so what he
bought from Chandler with the mummies and and and the Papas in the papai and
Etc but it says here a translation of some ancient records that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of
Egypt uh which was in the thieves luxur area correct right yeah yeah yeah and
the writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt the writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt called The Book of Abraham
written by his own hand on papus so few questions on this um in your
mind um these that tell me about first well you have to bring a couple of these
into into play I guess at once but the translation is it of the actual
documents that they had on papus is it of the fa
similes and just expounding on those and that's what triggered everything um or
is it purely inspiration that that he receives
in in my opinion I think it's more inspiration Joseph anything that was an ancient text Joseph Smith called it that
was an ancient text written by prophets Joseph called it a translation The Book
of Mormon he called a translation but much of that time he he did he didn't look at the plates he wasn't translating
word by word and we know that from both Emma as well as Oliver calary and Martin
Harris some of their their descriptions and when he quit for a month or or weeks or however long he didn't ask to be read
back where he left off he just started with the next word and continued which tells us it's by Revelation he even said
that it's the gift he called it the gift and power of God and even when he lost 116 Pages Emma questioning well why don't you just translate again he says
I've I've lost the power to translate I've lost that gift and so he's receiving he's receiving the book The
Book of Mormon basically by Revelation because it was an ancient text so if it's an ancient text he
called it a translation the the book of Moses he calls a translation also even
though we know it's by Revelation because the Bible that he uh that we get
our Joseph Smith translation from was by Revelation the parchment hit up by John
in in our Doctrine covenants that talked about in those early sections of the doctr covenants he says it was a
parchment hit up by John he didn't have the parchment but he called it a translation even though he didn't have
it even though it came by Revelation and the same with the book of of Abraham he calls it a translation because it was an
ancient text and it's we we think the translation
means you look at a word and then you put it in another word and you look at another word and it's another word but
the if there were two if if you spoke only Spanish and I spoke only English
and you wanted to give me you wanted to read to me something that you had written we're going to need a some type
of mediator in there somebody that can speak Spanish and somebody that can speak English to tell me what it is now
we can call that the holy ghost or the spirit or whatever you want to call it but the fact that I write down what he's
telling me you said means that I'm writing down a translation even though I didn't
translate your document I'm getting it by this this this third person if you
will or this this inspiration it's still a translation now the problem with the fa
simes and that becomes an issue not only for non-members but for a lot of members
today is they'll say well the egyptologists they've translated factly number two and it doesn't really say
what Joseph Smith said it says well it's they're not called
translations they're called explanations they're not a translation and even Abraham says there in that first chapter
he says I will refer you to the representations in this
record so so Abraham is saying this is not what it I'm not telling you that
that exactly what happened to me is exactly what this Egyptian faximile says
but this Egyptian faximile conveys somewhat a representation of
what happened to me of what I'm telling you of what I'm saying in the book of Abraham exactly it's not meant to be a
translation it's meant to be a representation and Joseph Smith doesn't call him translation he calls them
explanations and the explanation isn't what it meant to him it's what it meant to Abraham right so Osiris on the
lion couch is obviously Osiris but it's a representation in this case that he is
using it as himself as Abraham being sacrificed by by the priest of pharaoh
exactly so Abraham is calling them representations and Joseph Smith is calling them explanations and they they
shouldn't say they the the TR what Joseph gives us is the explanation should not be the same
as an egyptologist translation because they're representations of what Abraham is
trying to convey to his audience and that's why Joseph calls them explanations not translations they're
not meant to be translations and so Joseph is giving us what it meant to Abraham this means kab
this means oish or k van rash or Kil flis that's what these things represent
and if a person can find out about it so be it these things are it's the representations of what it meant to
Abraham not a translation of ancient Egyptian now Joseph he couldn't translate Egyptian anymore that it could
translate reformed Egyptian with the Book of Mormon and every every every Revelation
that we get from God requires a catalyst every section in the doctrine
covenants that comes to Joseph Smith came to him because he went to the Lord first with a question and so the catalyst is the
question that's why the Lord tells Joseph Smith when he gets to C and he says you really need to get back on the translation of the Bible you have to get
back on working on that translation of the Bible why because the Lord knew that
while he's Translating that Bible it would it would raise questions in
Joseph's mind so Joseph could then go to the Lord so that he could receive the Revelation that would lead to the
restoration of the church in the priesthood yeah so the jst is a great tool for us but the primary reason for
going through all that was probably the doctrine covenants exactly almost 60% almost 60% of the
doctrine covenants was given to Joseph Smith in Kirtland in the Kirtland years while he's doing the translation on the
on the Bible that's interesting and so everything requires the Catalyst the
Catalyst can be a question you know the first vision is because Joseph had a
question Moroni appearing in in the Smith home is because Joseph had a
question the Book of Mormon is because that becomes the Catalyst the the plates
become the Catalyst for the Book of Mormon the Papyrus becomes the Catalyst for the book of Abraham and the Book of
Joseph it becomes that Catalyst the Papyrus to who's and the questions that
are are coming to Joseph Smith's mind are leading to the prayers that lead to the revelation of these ancient texts
and when it's an ancient text Joseph called it a translation yes so you have asked and
you shall receive and and and which is a really interesting process because if you don't care you're not
going to ask right if you don't care you're not going to ask and and if you're and if
you're not studying or really pondering on something you're not even going to have a question to to begin with and so
it really is I mean when you get to the point of asking you care you've studied you've
pondered this it matters to you and you've prepared yourself
somewhat for an answer that's exactly right I I remember talking to ni brother
nibble about this he says he said to me something very interesting he says you have to be just as prepared to receive
the answer as you are prepared to ask the
question Yeah well yeah I I would guess sometimes that
he's gone through that and he wasn't quite ready for some of the answers and aren't we all aren't we all that's why it has to be line upon line and precept
upon precept you have to be prepared for the answer that you're asking the question for you have to search ponder
it out in your mind study it and then ask now you you talk about um you've
talked about the book of Abraham and it's not finished right Joseph Smith did not finish the book of Abraham uh you
you spoke just a moment ago about the reference in the book of Abraham to
faximile number one as a representation of him being sacrificed um you then go to Abraham 3
and you can see direct correlation with faimly number two and the idea of the
cosmology and Ascension and and Etc um but you've said to me that
in FA simile number three we we don't have anything written on that right so in other words and that's why originally
I used to think well maybe he's just using the fact similes as a trigger for all of this and and and and pulling you
know everything from the fa similes but fa simile number three is the
coronation it would be exaltation so to speak and so this is the story of
Abraham and outside of you know the story of Abraham going through fimile number one and then going into Egypt uh
the Ascension is him actually looking through the Y and Thum and then he gets the the uh the account of the creation
and and out of the beginning portions of Adam and Eve and the story of the Garden of Eden and and then we're done it just
kind of like cuts off at the end there it's very it's very sudden as it ends there what might I mean have you ever
thought about what and I know you're this would be assuming but what might we be missing then if it was if we know
what Joseph Smith had said the representation of fail fact simil number
three is what where does he go from there that's a good question uh first
thing he said that Joseph didn't finish Abraham he did finish the manuscript of Abraham but he didn't finish the
preparation for publication of that last third when he when he got to navoo he
was trying to prepare the book of Abraham and the Book of Joseph manuscripts for publication and he he he
was putting them into the times and seasons in in in different installments he would work on it and when the first
part was done then that went into was published in the times and Seasons Joseph said that the Lord will him accountable and so he wanted to make
sure that they're they were perfected for publication I have copies right here
in this Library you see behind me I have copies that I made from the church historian's office of and it was back
then it was be you would call it today the Joseph Smith papers but nobody nobody called it that back then but I
have copies of in the handwriting of of uh Martin Harris and Oliver Cry
of uh the the translation of the book of Abraham and and I can see the changes
that were made from the publication in the times and Seasons from that which was before that publication and Joseph
Was preparing those those installments uh to be published and so
he was working on the third installment when when he put the second installment in he put fact simly number two and fact
simbly number three in there because they don't require any any real
uh perfection in Translation and so he published both of those but didn't he didn't finish the
installment for the last third of the book of Abraham before his martyrdom nor did he complete the book of Joseph um uh
preparations to he had the manuscripts but he didn't complete the preparations for that and so we're missing that last
third now what was in that it would have to be connected to that fact assembly number three and it would have to be
connected to that perhaps potential of exaltation or Rising above all things
all three of those fimon you have to look at them together you talk about enthronement but they're all part of
that enthronement if you look at the Life of Christ and if you look at the ancient coronation
ceremonies uh there is always the death of the god that's factsim number one
there's always the death of the god and then there's a resurrection and Ascension and that's factsim number two
because factsim number two is it's a it's called a hypos sephus
meaning under the head and inside of the faimes it says that that this person has
descended below all things he's entered through death and now they're causing heat and that's what fact for is to
cause heat uh to come into the head or into the body of the individual so it's a resurrection text and Abraham tells us
it's like an Ascension text we're ascending through the different heavens and if you read the explanation you see
how he's going through the heavens telling us that God is Not only real but he's locatable basically is what faimly
number two is about well faimly number three Abraham is now sitting on on the
throne of pharaoh by the politeness of pharaoh but that's really the enthronement that's where we receive all
that the father ha we become an heir and a joint Heir with with God so if if you
take that in if you take this as Abraham's endowment those three fact assemblies have to be in that order and
if you think of Christ the death of the god the death of Christ has to take place so that you can have a
resurrection and the Ascension that is that's talked about in the New Testament and in scripture the Ascension in fact
Sly number two and then the enthronement in fact Sly number three and that's what we're going through as as we participate
in our endowment we have to participate in the death of the god yes we have to
be we have to be washed in in in in symbolically in the blood of Christ in
his life and then we're anointed to come forth in that first resurrection which is an ordinance of that Resurrection we're
anointed to come forth in that resurrection and then in like in fact simly number two in our endowment we go
through an Ascension we have to ascend through the different kingdoms and it used to be we'd go into different rooms it used to
be that we'd turn the lights on brighter as we had moved from the creation room to the terrestrial room to the or the
testal room to the terrestrial room and so you have an Ascension like in fact assembly number three and then we pass
through the veil and go into fact assembly number uh that would be fact assembly number two that Ascension and
then fact assembly number three we've passed through the veil and we receive all that the father hath we're we're
called we're we're we've proven ourselves worthy to be called a son or daughter of God and we receive all that
he has and become an heir and a joint air with Jesus Christ that's fact simbly number three so we have these three fact
similies in Abraham because it's a record of his endowment and our endowment there's a great statement in
the talmud that says everything um uh everything that uh Abraham did Adam
did and everything that Adam did we must do so we have to go through the same
concept now what was in the record of fact or in the book of Abraham regarding
fact simly number three it's a good question but there's a statement in the
I believe it it's it's in the it's in the pseudepigraph in the Apocalypse of of Adam I think it's in the apocalypse
it could be in The Testament of Adam but it says that there it says um the three Messengers come to Adam and
then and and bring him to God and God says Adam you wanted to become a
God but you can't right now because I have to be born of you through in time I
have to be bornn of you and then he says and when I am born and resurrected he says then I will make you a God just
like you wanted and set you on the right hand of my Divinity so it talks about that
exaltation so I think that's what we're seeing in the book of ab he's gone he's gone through this he's
gone he's going he's now in the creation epic and it ends in the creation epic uh
but doesn't continue on into that exaltation and it's these same three things that Elder makoni said are the
three pillars of the church the creation the fall and the
atonement and then we can add a fourth from Joseph Smith and that is exaltation after that atonement yeah that's really
interesting um just finishing off here I want to
just briefly cover the book of Joseph here because most people don't know about this they're not aware that there
was a a translation and that uh Joseph Smith was working on this um can you
give a little bit of a backstory on this why why we we you know most people have read
about it or seen a reference to the book of Joseph when they're looking at church history but it's like well where is it what
happened with this I guess he never got to it right what what is the story with the book of Joseph well Joseph in April
no it'd be July of 1835 um Joseph had the Papyrus between
the 3 of July and the 6th of July for about three days when those three days ended he said this these records would
lead not necessarily be translated these records records would lead to the to the
record of Abraham or the book of Abraham and the record of Joseph that was sold into Egypt so this is the this is the
this is from the same cach that or the same uh um this also comes from Chandler
then it's from comes from the same papus and that they papide that they they had with the mummies yeah chanra comes to
town on the 3 of July and Joseph asked if he could take the Papyrus home and he
does and then after three days he didn't take the mummies after three days he said say that they will lead to the
record of Abraham and the record of Joseph so he hasn't purchased it at this time Channer has been trying to sell him
for a long time when he was in um Harrisburg the winter before and then he
went to um Cleveland and then came into Kirtland when he was in Harrisburg the winter before he had six mummies and so
between winter uh between that winter of 3435 and July of 35 he sold two of those
mummies either in Harrisburg or in Cleveland I kind of think it's Harrisburg but he's brought in by a man
by the name of Bullock who is non-member is his his his wife and and daughter was were members uh but he knew of Joseph
Smith and so he's the one that takes Channer to Jose Smith Joseph Smith for
those three days looks at the Papyrus and then ends up purchasing both the Papyrus Chandler wanted out of it all
together and he purchased the Papyrus and the four mummies for uh $2,400
Joseph put up according to the records that we have Joseph put up 800 and then he got two other Brethren each to put up
$800 to purchase the mummies and the Papyrus and then he immediately started
on the on the um what we would call the translations not necessarily of the
Papyrus themselves because he couldn't do that but by Revelation the same way he received the doctrine covenants the
same way that Moses got got the Book of Genesis you know it's Moses wasn't there
so how did Moses get give us the Book of Genesis if he wasn't there so the same way and so he he finishes the manuscript
of Abraham and the manuscript of Joseph according to the uh Records that we have in church history and
um and when he gets to navu then he's trying to prepare those records for the
uh for the members of the church and only gets the book of Abraham those parts of the book of Abraham that we have the first two-thirds of the book of
Abraham and doesn't doesn't complete the book of Joseph now in
1967 um when the Papyrus was found in
the Metropolitan Museum of New York that Abel kums who ended up getting the
mummies and the papirus from William Smith after Joseph's death sold him to the St Louis Museum who sold him to the
woods museum in Chicago later on and that was just before the Chicago Fire that burned everything they assumed that
everything was burned in the Chicago Fire but but kums um allowed some of his
workers to take some of the Antiquities that he on had on his Riverboat um
Museum and a woman by the name of Alice huser took the Joseph Smith papy and
went home to um to New York she lived in Long Island New York and she took the
Papyrus there um her son John hster sold him to the Metropolitan Museum between
the first and second world war for a few hundred dollars um and then they were discovered in 1967 and faimly number one
the original Papyrus of faimly number one was there as well as um 10 other fragments of the Joseph Smith
papy um in those fragments was a a
large um faximile if you want to call it that or a large vignette of the Judgment scene or which Symposium scene sometimes
you call it the Judgment scene um with the Dead uh with Osiris on the other
side with the um the scale Anubis um tho
uh and the great devour all that would be in a common judgment scene that was in those 11 fragments that were in the
Metropolitan Museum Joseph described to Oliver um one of the faimes in the book
of Joseph and that was published in the messenger and Advocate uh the description of the fa
simbly in the book of J uh the main one it wasn't the only one or others but the
main one and that was that judgment scene that was discovered in the Metropolitan Museum and Joseph gives us
the explanation or Oliver gives us the explanation that was published at the times and seasons and States directly
that it was from the record of Joseph so Joseph had that now he never
he never prepared the manuscript for publication and it was in uh gosh I can't remember
the dat now is just before Emma's death uh the prophet sent Elder Pratt and
Joseph F Smith as Apostles back to to Nauvoo on what was called a
mission to the states and they were request they were given an assignment in the minutes of
the first presidency um a minute book you can see when they were set apart and they were
set apart to purchase from Emma the rest of the book of Abraham manuscript that
last third and the Book of Joseph's manuscript from Emma and then invite Emma to come out
west uh Emma didn't come but they both reported in conference they got back just a few days
before October conference that year and they both said in conference almost the
same thing that they had a very successful Mission uh which they were set apart
only for to invite Emma and to purchase the
manuscripts that's the whole purpose they went Emma didn't come so they number two yeah I'm not going to
say that the church has it you know I wouldn't want to do that because they really can't bring that up I mean it's
it would cause a lot of problems if you said the book of J they had the book of Joseph so I don't think that'll ever be
admitted one way or the other but but um the implication is there and the fact
simile that Joseph described in the book of uh in the book of Joseph that Joseph
Smith described is connected to the endowment um three three Brethren Sydney
B SP Bruce aroni and James talage all said that the things contained in the book of J Joseph were of such a sacred
nature that it shouldn't be published which would imply that they may have seen the manuscript and Elder makoni
went on to say that he felt that um much of what was uh the restoration of the
endowment at Nauvoo was because of the book things that were in the book of Joseph he added that um that little
tidbit compared to what talage and sper said so is it there it could be and Abraham
is a temp is his Temple text Abraham is a record of his endowments to same as Moses is a record of his endowment and
no doubt the book of Joseph is a record of his endowment all linking back
to the endowment of power the endowment of exaltation in Egypt yeah that's
really really fascinating stuff well Bruce thanks so much for your time this has been a fabulous discussion as always
uh we'll have you back soon to talk on other topics as well but uh really appreciate your knowledge and and
sharing everything with us thank you Greg appreciate being here we appreciate the opportunity we'll see you in Egypt
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