Why doesn't anyone want to talk about the part of the family proclamation that goes over gender roles? Well, Hannah
Stoddard and I are going to do that here today. Are you comfortable with the patriarchal order? What does the rainbow
actually represent? Hannah and I take the family proclamation, go through it
piece by piece, giving doctrinal and scriptural reference and applying it and
contrasting it to our culture today. This episode is brought to you by the Wavemakers podcaster cruise coming
November 15th through 22nd. Your favorite Latterday Saint content creators and the online community coming
face to face as we sail down the Baja of Mexico. Amazing presentations, a real
community, and the opportunity to have a great time while you're meeting new people. Go to quickdia.com up to trips
and events and scroll down to wavemakers to find out more. Now, one of the things I love about Hannah is that she is
scripturally grounded and she's willing to talk bluntly and truthfully
regardless of what the reaction might be. I always enjoy our conversations and I find her to be very instructive and
edifying. Let's dig into this. Here we go.
[Music]
The world seems to continue to drift in our culture away from the order of
family. Mhm. How from a woman's perspective
do you navigate the world we live in which continues to move, it continues to
drift, continues to unravel that order and still hold on to I mean we can call
it an iron rod but still hold on to a firm order of the family as for example
outlined in the family proclamation. Yeah. Okay. This is a very interesting
topic for me and I've even been hesitant to speak on it for a few years because I felt like in a lot of ways I was still
trying to figure it out myself. I'm going to be completely honest. Um I grew
up let me just start a little bit with my background because I feel like it kind of just helps like just lay that
groundwork and put that picture. So obviously I grew up in a very traditional household. There's a mom,
there's a dad. I was home educated. Did we grow up having a garden like President Kimell said and then you know
word callings going to young women. It's just very boring and typical I guess. Um but I do feel so I'm the oldest of 10
kids and there's six boys and there's four girls. So reasonably balanced. But
one thing I did appreciate growing up is my mom and dad didn't differentiate so much on gender roles when it came to
chores, talents, achievements. I mean, my dad sat there with his girls and his boys right there talking about, okay,
like what's your talents here? Oh, like Leah, you're really good at software. You seem to have a mind for this. Let's
let's let's pursue that. Oh, Hannah, you seem more gifted towards music. Software, math is not really your thing.
Let's let's move that direction. And and oh, James, like where where do you fit in this? And and boys were in the
kitchen cooking and cleaning just as much as girls. Like really. And it was more where are your talents? And this is
there's not a pink world and there's not a blue world. there's just God's world and we're all working together as a team.
So, I feel like I grew up just that was very natural. Um, but at the same time and and most
mostly good men. So, I my heart goes out to women that have grown up with a very different experience where all they've
known are men maybe that were abusive or bad examples or things like that. I was really really blessed and I recognize
that in many unique ways. Um, I actually feel like that was on purpose. I feel
like and I felt I felt like this actually since I was 13 or 14. I just felt this deep desire. I was like my
mission is to defend the family and specifically I just felt like I wanted to understand God's kingdom, why it
worked that way. Priesthood, patriarchal order, use the P word. Um I wasn't
scared of it. I wasn't threatened by it. Um I knew deep in my heart I was like God has a plan and this plan is good and
I just want to better understand it and I want to defend it. and my life went different directions obviously you know
defending Joseph Smith church history faith crisis different and and I always felt like I want to get get back to that
and I just felt like the Lord was like just just wait like the time will come you know but I was the kid that at 15 or
16 I'm sick with the flu so I can't get out of bed and I'm sitting on my laptop watching a PBS documentary about second
and third wave feminism and that that's just what I love to do and just like really listening and like
okay why are they thinking this and what's the answer and and the perspective that I came from is not so
much like those crazy radicalists like they're idiots like what's their problem
but I really and I I feel this strongly I feel like a lot of the questions asked with first wave feminism secondwave
feminism and thirdwave feminism now we're like moving into fourth whatever there's legitimate questions there's
legitimate concerns the problem is they just got the wrong answers they actually made the solution the
problem. So God is actually the solution and they made God the problem. Oh, these problems that are legit problems in our
society, in our family order, God's the problem. Christianity is the problem. Men are the problem. You know,
just just all of that instead of realizing, no, actually God is the solution. But my heart goes out to them
because they're dealing in a culture that's frankly coming from the great apostasy. So, a lot of times we'll go,
"Oh, if we could just get back to the Victorian era, like it was so like all this beautiful like the Victorian angel
in the house and you know, 1800s, Little House on the Prairie." No. Like, I'm
going to say this as a woman. No. Uh, the 1800s, that's the same generation
that killed Joseph Smith and drove the Saints out. Their family was not ideal. Now, in a lot of ways, we can look back
and see good positive things like different standards. I'm not saying that, you know, if you go back to the
Haye code, the motion picture movies code in the 1900s, it was way better than most family standards today with
movies. So, I'm not saying it's all bad, but I feel like the solution to actually
solving these questions that I feel like are legitimate questions is not to go back. It's to say, okay,
Joseph Smith came from a for a reason, and he came to say, we need to restore. The great apostasy has messed everything
up. Everything. We need to put this back in order. And he gave us the framework to do that, but
we are still deep in the middle of that reform. So, I don't know if that makes
sense, but I feel like I'm kind of in this I I I I I think definitely by the end of this interview, people will see
I'm definitely very traditionalist. Um, but at the same time, I feel like
the conversation on both sides. We're almost talking past each other. And there needs to be this thing of saying, "Okay, it's not the extreme right, it's
not the extreme left." You know, it when feminism really took on, you know, in the mid 1900s with the ERRA and
everything, a lot of people just did a knee-jerk, you know, oh, feminists, they'd wear blazers and suits and so, so
we're going to wear prairie aprons, you know, and then now we're suddenly feminine and and we'll wear pink instead
of blue and you know, I'm wearing pink, whatever. Like, okay, that's the feminine thing to do instead of
realizing like, no, what's actually the truth? Sorry, did I cut you off there?
No. So I was just going to say, so do you think that in in that that world of feminism where there are legitimate
concerns, what I see often times in and because feminism is a is a certain movement that
goes along with a lot of other movements that I study and at the core of those movements
unfortunately ends up a there there is a sense of victimhood
that becomes corrupted. Yes. And it's not that you're not a victim and and a lot of those that may
have the loudest voices may have had horrible experiences. And I think that needs to be understood.
But you cannot live in that world. That's very true. Of of victimhood because you know, you look at the Book of Mormon that that's I
think it's a great teacher of that. It is the Lamemonites are always in a a position of victimhood.
Yeah. And it doesn't go away. and and and as long as you're in that position,
there is a a a tendency to put the problem out there,
right? And and if the problem is always out there, it's not in me. And the whole basis of the gospel is
I've got a savior who atoned, sacrificed, died, and and won.
Yes. Right. I need to lean on that and change myself and be empowered by that.
Right. And not the empowerment doesn't come from blaming someone else.
Right. It and so it's very to me it's very anti-core of the gospel. Yeah.
But it's easy to fall into that. Yes. Does that make sense? Absolutely. 100%. And with that I think
it's where do we go for answers? And again, do you want to hear the answer? So, I'll I'll I'll sit right here and be
like, "Yeah, absolutely." How many women actually do want the answer? How many men actually want the answer for God's
plan, how it works and everything, but I believe um I was actually just talking to my aunt about this last night. Um
because she's an amazing example of like a good marriage and she's gone through a road of trying to figure that out and
and really finding her place as a woman. She's amazing. She's one of my role models. And I was talking to her about
this whole conversation, you know, like how do we help women? And and she said similar to that thing. She didn't use the word victimhood, but she was just
talking to me about how she was like, "Women are going to have to make a decision if we're going to turn this
mess around of families falling apart, confused about our role, confused about our place. We have to figure it out and
we have to take that first step of um she was explaining specifically in the context of a marriage like who's going
to be the first person to extend grace? Who's going to be the first person to say, "Okay, even if he's doing the right
thing, I'm going to do the right thing." Um, you're doing the wrong thing, I'm going to do the like, who's going to
take the first step to actually be like, "We need to fix this, and I'm not a victim. I'm not waiting for everyone
else to fix themselves. I'm going to fix myself through Christ." And as she was
talking about that, I was thinking, you know, women are very strong. I I consider myself a very strong um woman.
And I' I've done things with my life. I've produced documentaries. I've written books. I don't believe that should stop. I think women have talents
and I think almost communicating women, you are strong. So, let's figure out
what the family is supposed to look like and let's fix it and you you take that lead and you make a difference. And we
can obviously talk more about what that even means. But yes, no victimhood.
Let's take responsible where so based on what you're saying, how do we fit that into the family
proclamation? Where does it is there instruction there that you see that makes sense for that kind of guidance? You brought
up just before we talked a little bit about right at the very beginning God's plan, right? Talk a little about a little bit
about that. Okay. So, yeah, going this this is good. So, the the family proclamation, it's funny, it's so controversial when it's
so foundational and basic. Um, again, being a young girl and for
some reason, I don't know, brought it with me from the premortal life. I don't know what it was. Fascinated with this just wanting to understand all the
nuances and everything. Um I I I had the
basic foundation like we had the family proclamation framed at our house, you know. Um but I knew in my heart there
was more. So like, okay, what does this mean? Like the first paragraph, the family is central to the creator's plan. What's the plan? Uh what does it mean?
Covenants make families united eternally. Like what does that actually even mean? And how does that work?
That's always been my brain sitting there like, I'm not accepting the simple answer. Like, why does it work this way?
And to answer those questions, I turned to a lot of non-member sources that were
good, good people, good Christians, good evangelicals, very good people.
Um, definitely not like downing that at all. Um, but I I gravitated to that just
because I felt like they had um good insights and perspectives that rang true
to me, like there was truth there. But and that got me to a certain point. But a few years ago, I had this experience
where I woke up in the middle of the night and I
had been praying about a question um a relationship type of question. The Lord answered my question. I wake up in the
middle of the night, I get the answer. And with that, I was chastised by the
Lord. Um, and not in a bad way. He never does it demeaning, but I was definitely
chastised. And I really felt strongly prompted like Hannah, you all the
solutions to understanding your place and where you're supposed to go and how you're supposed to make decisions,
they're in the restoration, they're in the temple, and they're found with what the Lord restored. And I felt like the
Lord was saying, "You keep turning to people who don't have the restoration." Just like the children of Israel when
Moses came to them and is like, "I want to take you into the presence of God. I want to give you the Melkazedc priest." They're like, "No, no, no. I want the
lower law." Lord was like, "You keep going after the lower law." Like, "Do you you're throwing away this gift. I
want to give you um basically you need to get your life figured out and and decide where you stand cuz um do you
want to lose like all these blessings?" and and a lot of of it I was like what even is in the temple? Like I mean I
keep everything in the temple. What what is there? And um and and but I was
prompted to study Abraham, to study Enoch, and to study the temple.
So I started from that moment and I actually ended up getting a priesthood blessing later that day where I was told
that I had a mission that was tied to all of this. And so I just started studying like crazy. And the Lord really
is so good. Like he wants to teach us. He wants to guide us through. And so the reason why I tell that whole story is
because you know if there's a woman listening to this and literally you don't get anything out of it but this
like right here. This is just all I want you to remember. God speaks
and God can tell you things and God can reveal things to you just like he did to Joseph Smith. their entire faith started
because a 14-year-old was confused by all the competing voices out there. And
he goes in to grow and he's like, "God, what is going on here?" Like, "What is actually the truth?" And the Lord's
like, "Thank you for asking. Let me tell you." I have had those same experiences, not on that magnitude, of course, but
those same answers where the Lord is like, "Oh, you you want to know what meekness is? Let me teach you. Oh, you
want to understand what this part of the temple is? You want to understand the law of chastity." And why? That one always confused me. I was like, I'm
living the law of chastity before I was baptized. Like, why? You know, and Lord's like, let me teach you. It's
higher laws. Let me let me explain this to you. And he just really will just he'll bring people in your path. He'll
lead you to things that just just he'll he'll give you prompting. He'll teach you so much. And so I feel like we as
women do need to go on a journey of better trying to understand what the family is, what the plan is, what the
priesthood is, and be willing to really just ask the basic questions. Do I even
understand what the priesthood is? No, you don't. Let's just start and start diving into the words of the prophets, diving into the scriptures, go diving
into the temple, studying, and I can promise you the Lord will teach you. So, if you're expecting to get done through
this podcast here and be like, "Oh, okay. I got it all figured out." No. No. This is a huge topic. I really almost
feel like we just need to have a demolition crew in and demolish all of our traditions, all of our assumptions,
everything, and just be like, "Okay, let's just start from scratch, and let's rebuild on the foundation of the
restoration, one piece at a time, but let's rewrite everything." When you heard the hear the word man, father,
husband, wife, let's change your definitions. Let's actually get back to the Lord. Let's let's scrub everything
clean and the Lord can help you do that. So, I hope I can share a few things today that can help, but
I fully realize it's a big journey and this is a big mission that needs to be done.
That's those are great words. I I had I'm I'm looking here at the family proclamation. I want to go through this. Yes. Uh so that we're we get some more
specifics and a little bit of uh u context expansion on some of these things. But what I think about in
scripture period or here with this proclamation, I always think about how was it created and why was it created,
right? And so you'll get a lot of response from those that might attack the church on several of these issues
here. Well, it was all about the the politics in Hawaii that was going on at that time. And and sure, whatever. And I
my response is, so who cares? What? Yeah. Okay. you know, you know, as
if it's supposed to be just some direct fire that comes down on the rock, you know, from a vacuum.
And so it's but it it it there is an obvious thought process.
Yeah. To this. Yes. That builds off of this foundation and it just kind of comes down and addresses
so many things. Yeah. That we are dealing with today. But it it starts off as you were saying with
right that the family is central to the creator's plan. All right. So let's put us into this the context of the plan of
salvation, our eternal souls, our purpose, right? This is everything to do with you
individually and and how you fit in, but there is an order to
plug you into. Yes. And if you don't understand that order, you will be lost. It doesn't matter how many rules, how many positive
affirmations or you're a princess, you're a daughter of God. I I'm sorry. Speaking of the women, it's not enough.
you need to understand what in the world you're doing here. So it starts off saying, you know, marriage between a man and a woman is
ordained of God. So again, thinking about the thought process here, we're going to start here. Yes.
Which is very similar to what happens in the Garden of Eden, right? It's like, let's start right there
going back as you were saying, let's get a demolition to everything. Just go to the very basics of this
and start there. So ordained of a man. Well, obviously that's something that has been attacked successfully today
and broken up. And there there are words from the prophets that actually talk about
if this were to ever change, which it did in the US and has throughout much of the West. Um there would be mass there
will be mass confusion on and then it gets down to gender and other things. There's going to be a mass confusion on all.
Yeah. Well, he ends at the very end with destructions, calamities, nations falling apart. Yeah. And so it's it's I think we need
to remember that and understand just that very basic part of marriage is between a man. So this order
our purpose for coming down to earth. Yes. Getting a body. Yeah.
Is is is built in right here with marriage is between a man and a woman
and then we can get to everything else. Right. Okay. Let's let's get into that. And I'm going to start getting excited. I just
can feel it. And I'm like, "Okay, contain yourself." Um, okay. So, I've done so much pondering on this just the
basic question of just being like, "Okay, God, I'm going to admit, what is the plan? Like, what are you doing out
there?" You know, and this is this is so oversimplified. I'm not saying I have it
figured out cuz I don't. But this is some basic things that have come fitting into all this.
God, who is God? He's basically just a dad out there who grew up in chaos
because he was once an intelligence in chaos. We'll talk about that in a second. Um, and he figured out that if
you create order, you're happy. And he figured out the best way to be happy.
That that's basically and he just was filled with so much joy that he just wants to help everyone he can if they
want him to help them be happy, too. That's literally it. Like if we're
talking about what is the plan and what's the point, it's just there's a man who figured out how to be happy and
he wants you to be happy too. That's it. And he figured out um so Joseph Smith talks about this like in the King Fall
discourse how there's intelligence out there and it can't be created. Every single one of us is an intelligence.
It's that part of us that thinks and acts and you know is us. And that it was
in chaos at one point and this father starts working with it and trying to
bring order. And honestly, I think it's not much different than the way you bring order in a home. Like when
toddlers are screaming and yelling, how do you how do you soo them? How do you calm them? How do you help them get to
realize like, hey, you know, you want to keep your room clean? You know, that t takes years, right? And how do you work
with them? I think it's very similar. Actually, I think God's actually set up our whole life here to kind of teach us
what he's doing up there. Um, but basically at the end of the day, God just has figured out this order and this
way of living that will bring joy. And as it says right here in the family proclamation, and this is foundational,
marriage is key to that. Um, so if we could maybe turn to Abraham 3 for just
one second. I don't know how chapter in all scripture, right? I know. Yeah. I It's It's one of
mine, too. So Abraham, I just feel like this guy I can relate to in different
ways, more probably to his wife, but that's another story. So um Abraham is a
dad, a man who grows up in a very abusive and traumatic environment.
Um I know there's different sources like the book of Jasher that just talk about him, you know, kind of being sent to be tutored by the fathers. I just get the
sense though from reading the scriptures and the New Testament that he was a man who had to overcome a lot
psychologically, emotionally, mentally. Um I'll explain a backup for that in First Peter in a second because it ties
into women. Um so, but he he's this man having to overcome all this and not only
overcome a really messy background, but become a god from that messy background.
So, not just okay, just become a functioning adult that's healthy. set up a healthy family. But no, like you're
going to literally become a god over millions and trillions of children. Like
that's quite a feat to get from complete disaster to that. Um, and one of the
things that the Lord does to help him on that journey is he teaches him who he was in the premortal life.
Um, I think that's, you know, Moses, when we read Moses, it's kind of like from the perspective of like, oh, this is what God's doing in the creation.
Abraham is, you have a part in the creation. and let me show you your part. So, it's very much more personal
and I think this applies to each of us as members of the house of Israel like all of us have a similar story to learn
um whether that's through personal revelation or the scriptures. But, um in Abraham 3 chapter 23, it's talking about
how the Lord is looking at all these intelligences and he sees some that are good. That's what sets them aside.
They're just good. They just want goodness, you know. It's not that they're talented or cool or charismatic. They're just they just want goodness,
you They just want honor and integrity. And he's like, "Okay, these are going to I'm going to make their my rulers." And
he says, "Abraham, you're one of them." And then in 24 it says, "There stood one among them that was like unto God,"
presumably Jesus Christ. That's my understanding. Um, and he So Jesus Christ said to those who were with him.
So Jesus Christ is standing there with all of these other men. Abraham's one of them who are just good men. And he says,
"We will go down to earth for there is space there. We will take of these
materials. We will make an earth and we will prove them therewith to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord.
So where I'm going with this is this really stood out to me um year or two ago. It's we. So it's not we often often
talk about okay it's the father and Jesus and they're up there and they have this plan. It's kind of like we're just sitting there like trying to figure out our place in this plan. No. Jesus is
talking to all of these men. He's like we're going to do this. We're going to prove them. We are going to create this
earth. We're all part of this plan. Um, and it's not just men. If you go and read Joseph F. Smith's Revelation on the
spirit world, DNC 138, I think it is. Yeah. Um, he specifically lists Eve as
one of those rulers and presumably, I would say, than the wives of all the men, because then there's a million quotes on
this, too. There's no such thing as God that's only male. It's male and female. So it's so it's basically Jesus Christ
is standing there with all these couples and he's like guys let's go put this plan in action.
That is really interesting because it's it's and that's my thought also when you're talking about God. This whole
thing it's a whole different podcast but this whole idea of mother in heaven and praying to mother in heaven. It's like
you're kind of already doing that. It's like how do you even answer that question? It's like you there that is a
such a divisive idea because yes God is Elohim, right? God is plural
already. God God is we will make
man and and him woman in the image of God. Yeah. Right. It's it's man and woman.
And I'm going to go so far that it's not just the couple, but it's also like their birthright son because there's
this triangle, this threesome. You know the power of Joseph Smith says like faith exists in the power of two or
three combined. So it's not just the husband like okay tree of life. Nephi sees the tree
of life, right? It's the father, Mary, Christ. Yes, the three of them together.
So all of a sudden you see it's not just about a couple, but it's also a couple and a birthright son trying to save the family. It's a couple and multiple
generations. Like it has to be. Yes. And that's what Elohim is. That's why Joseph Smith's just like uh it's
more than one. How do where do I even start with? And I know I'm going off on a tangent here, but this is very exciting to me because it's it's you're
you're going down the exact same path that I've gone down. Right? When you go to Abraham 3, you you
you start off with collab and Olish and the Kokabium and there's this hierarchal
structure, this order that is put into place. And and the reason this is so important is because
the adversary continually tries to take that order of all those things and
flatten it. Yeah. And it's God, this idea of God and man down here, and that's it.
Yep. That's the great apostasy. The Catholic, that's the great apostasy right there. So, there's this trinity and it's you
down here. Oh, but the bridge to this is, well, just believe.
Just accept it. Just believe and then it's done. Whereas Abraham 3 says, "No,
there is an order all the way down." I call this the DBR, but it's there's an order all the way down and then there's
a it's a metaphor because then it goes to the spirits
and it does the same thing. And so the verbiage is exactly the same with collab and God and other the prophets kind of
so you know that go along with these other cos this cosmological order that he's put into place.
Mhm. And then like you said after this order is put into place Yes. He goes to Abraham and he says,
"This is where you're at in that order. You are in this order. You are a
participant in the whole thing." And that changes everything. I'm not just
some observer that God made and and put out here and boy, you better believe in me. Yes.
It's like, "No, I'm part of the whole thing." Yes. And that's the restored gospel. Yes. That's it changed everything for me
too because and that's why the Lord was like okay go back to Abraham and and reading this it was just like the light bulb went on and all of a sudden it was
like the spirit was like when you go to the temple you want a temple marriage
this is the order you're entering you're entering an order of gods or do you even
know what that means are you living up to that do what what does that mean as a woman what's your place in in that
sphere how are you creating gods how are you building gods and how can you do that if you don't even know what the plan is you know like and so this goes
this is why I'm like the whole conversation with women this goes beyond like do I have priesthood do I not have priesthood what can I do with the
priesthood do I stay at home and knit or do I can I go get a degree like it's just like none of those questions have
anything to do with this conversation this is what where we have to start and
um and I really think we way over underestimate what we have in the temple but that's I know we already agree both
on that but Um, so Abraham, right, he gets his empowerment, but but he sees
who he was before and how where he needs to get, but he's not there. He's not there yet.
And this is where Sarah comes in. And this is where I'm going to say I think Abraham is a type for every single
man in this generation. Sarah is a type for every single woman. In fact, Isaiah, I'm trying to remember which um section
it's in, but right in Isaiah, he says, "Look unto Abraham. Look to Sarah." Meaning, look at them. They're an
example. I think there's way more there than we realize. I think he's saying, "Every single one of you guys is growing
up in a culture of chaos. You're messed up. You got a lot of false ideas." Like Nephi says, everybody's led astray. Even
the humble followers. It's just like everybody's so confused. Be like Abraham. Overcome. Fight to get out of
this. Go back to the fathers. figure out this order, enter into this order, and you literally have access to do this
through the temple, through the teachings of Joseph Smith and everything. So, um, so kind of starting
to picture that in my mind and just as the spirit was teaching me, you know, hey, if you want the true order of the
family is not just about like, oh, how do you be a good mom? It's saying, okay, do you understand what it means to be in
this role, what you're trying to create? Do you understand the laws and how to become part of this family? not just
part of God's family of rulers, but be a become a ruler. And um and I'll I'll
just go from that to Sarah for a second. So Abraham's on this journey trying to figure this out. He cannot figure this
out without Sarah. So um I'm going to switch to first Peter 3 here for a second. Um it was interesting,
which also is the same place I went. Really? Yes. It's the same place I had gone to
this because it's all about order. Yes. There's a hierarchal. There's an order in Peter.
Okay. So, you're going to be a better expert on the whole thing of Peter than I don't know about that. I just It's just that's what makes me so excited because
you've gone this. It's the same path. Yeah. Yeah. That is so cool. Um I feel like for
seven or eight years, every few months some something happens that pushes me back to First Peter 3.
And I couldn't figure it out until like more recently. Um, but 1 Peter 3 is
Peter talking to women who have husbands who are not obeying God, who are not
obeying the scriptures. Now, I always kind of had read this in the past, like, okay, yeah, if you have a husband who
left the church or, you know, he's struggling doing bad things, like great, read this, apply it, move on. But one
day something really stood out to me and that is that Peter pulls in Sarah, Abraham's wife, as the example for women
to look to in this situation. So this is what he does. So first he starts out and he's like, "Okay, women, um, be in
subjection to your own husbands." That's a whole another conversation. We could talk about submission, the patriarchal order. That's a whole another can of worms. Um, but I he says if any of them,
and I'm I'm not apologetic for that at all. I also think we need to get definitions cracked, too. And at the
same time, women do need to develop more of a meek and a submissive spirit, but at the same time, not be doormats anyway. So, I'm like, I'm on
I'm not on either side of the right or left spectrum there. But, um, but he says, if any of, you know, your husbands
are obeying not the word, they may also without the word be one by the conduct of the wives. Now, the King James says
conversation of the wives, Joseph Smith changes that right now. 1 Peter 3:1. Okay. So basically he's saying hey if
you have a husband who is basically breaking God's commandments and I want
to suggest something. I think this goes for every level because no man is
perfect. No woman is perfect. But no matter what in your marriage you're going to have situations where they're
breaking a commandment. They're obeying not the word. And Peter's like how do you handle this? It's not by more words.
It's not by more nagging and conversation which Joseph Smith talks about that in the Relief Society minutes. It's kind of a theme, but
anyway. Um, and he says, "They'll behold your chasteed conduct coupled with fear." So, I mean, this this would take
hours to unpackage, but everything about having the fear of God, what it really means to be chased. Um, but I want to just skip to verse four. He says you
real women, he he says you need to have this meek and this quiet spirit um which
is in the sight of God of great price. So, he's like developed this meekness. He says, "After this manner in old time,
the holy women also trusted in God, adorned themselves, were submissive,
subjection to their own husbands, even as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him
Lord, whose daughters ye are as long as you do well and are not afraid with any amazement." So basically, he's saying,
if I can put this into my own words, he's saying, "Hey, if you're in this tough situation, develop this meekness.
Trust in Jesus Christ. live your life this way. They will be one. They will be converted. You will be able to help them
get back on the right path. And do this the same way the ancient women did.
Specifically Sarah, just like Sarah did. And Sarah wasn't scared. So that word don't be afraid with any amazement.
That's fear. You know that paralyzing fear where you're just like, I can't move. I can't do this. I can't trust. I've got trust issues now. I've got
boundaries. I've got walls going up. He's like, don't do that. Sarah's an amazing example. She didn't do that. She
she had faith and she trusted God and you are her daughter. Be like her. I
remember that just hitting me so strong. I was like, why is he pulling in Sarah as an example? Because you think Sarah's
got her way made. I mean, she's married to Abraham for crying out loud at God. Like, what woman could have an easier path in life? Then I started thinking.
I'm like, okay, well, number one, I think Peter's got more to this story than we do. He probably had access to some more scripture than we do. Um, and
I could be wrong on this, but there's some hints in Genesis of places where
Abraham was making some mistakes at time and Sarah trusts in God. Abraham goes to
God and he's like, "Yeah, okay." You know, um, I think there's a lot more to the story, but
I don't know. I just felt deep in my soul like the Lord was like, "There is
something to be learned here." Well, for me, it was meekness. Number one, the Lord told me I had serious issues with
this and I needed to get that straightened out. Um, and I went on a journey for that. Um, but this whole
perspective of there is a plan. You're going to be in situations. You're married to someone who's flawed. You're in a hard situation, but you have this
goal and you can get to that goal. Sarah helped Abraham get to that goal. And he overcame. He overcame all the trauma. He
overcame all of the hardship, all the garbage, everything. He did. That's why
all of us look to him literally as our covenant father. Sarah helped him do that. How did she do that? Where are the
other answers in the scriptures? And at the end of the day, that's one of the most important purposes of women. I was
sitting in the temple um one day and um this was before some of the changes, but
um but I think it's fine because it's still true. They're all they're all true. Um but I was sitting there and I
just felt this prompting. I really felt like the spirit said to me, "How do I refer to women?"
How do you refer to how does the Lord like what does he see their role as? What what's the title he
gives them? Does he use the word mother? That was the question that came to my mind. So I'm paying attention through
the whole temple. Not once. Not once. So some people are like, "But Eve, the mother of all living." No, no,
no. Adam calls her that. And there's very interesting symbolism of the man naming his wife, kind of claiming
covenant and all that. God God calls women queens and priestesses to their husbands. Now, it's
changed a little bit now, but um I I still I hold all the versions. I think all the versions are true.
I do too. Um and uh because you can find it in quotes and everything. And I was sitting
there and I just felt the most distinct prompting was marriage comes first.
that role of being a queen and a priestess to her husband as a wife is
top. And it was so strong and so clear that I
was like, I know this is true, but I was like, I'll never say this to a single soul. I was like, this goes against
everything almost any woman has ever told me. Like every Okay, I I I grew up motherhood was everything with my mom.
Everything. Oh my word. every Janine Brady song, every Janice Cat Perry song, like everything was about preparing to
be a mom. Everything almost nothing about being w like I don't really ever
remember actually conversations. I'm not the only one. I know I'm not the only one because as I've talked with girls my
age and others and I start sharing with them some heretical ideas and they're just like, "Yeah, this is so foreign."
And um like I'm saying, I was I was scared. I was like, "I'm not posting on social media anything like wife comes
ahead of being a mom." I'm like, okay, killed. And now here I'm on a podcast. Whatever. Because I have a quote. So,
I have multiple quotes actually. Um, so last there's a point to the story, Greg. Sorry. Um, but last
September, August, September, um, I had this prompting. It was go through every
one of the teachings of the prophets on wives. Just go through every single one.
So, I went to my bookshelf cuz I've got them all there. We've got every book written by a president of the church. I
love it. And uh I just kind of default like I was like I'll start at the beginning, you know, chronological
order. That's how my brain works. Um and I just inexplicably I just had to pick up Teachings of Harold Beleely. I don't
know why. I just had to. Okay, I have nothing against Harold Beleely. I just had never picked up his book before. I'm
going to be honest. Like he just was someone who had flown under my radar. Not I don't have anything against him. I
I I just to my shame. I just had never Well, he wasn't there very long in position there very long. I just never I
don't know. Um and but I just had to pick up his book. So I pick up his book
and I'm like, "Okay, like look in the topical guide. Where's the section?" So I'm flipping to the section. The first page that kind of just flips open is in
his section on marriage and wifehood. And underlined there in my dad's h
colored pencil handwriting and starred is this quote from him where he says um and if I can just like read it cuz it's
so um good but it's it's it's really simple but he says that the role of a
wife um is first and then the role of um a mother is second. I don't know where
my quote is. Shoot. Um but
he says from my experience as a father and a husband and a grandfather a woman's as a wife is first and that is a
the priority ahead of motherhood. I'm going to tell you that I just cried.
I sat there and I cried at the computer and it was because um
there were so many things that I had like just just really struggled trying
to figure out decisions to make understanding like was I really following the spirit? Was I you just so
many circumstances I had been in um that finally that came down to having that backwards.
M um it's hard to explain why it mattered so much, but it did. And I was sitting
there and I was like the whole time this book was sitting on my bookshelf
and I've been banging my head against the wall for years. And like if I had just had and and he had so many other
teachings, oh my word, in his chapters just loaded with stuff and it was so much stuff the Lord had been teaching me
too. And it was like it was just sitting here like I didn't have to go the hard road. I could have just picked up the
book and and and I was just and I was like, "Okay, why did I not pick up these books? My dad was always telling me to
read these books. Why did I not take the time to do it?" And they do have the answers. And all of a sudden, I was
like, "These prophets had the answers all along." And I've been struggling and everyone else is struggling in different
situations because I I think I think now it's mainly a thing of ignorance. In the
past, it was more rejection at times. I I feel like now my generation and younger, we just don't know. We We don't
even know where to find this stuff. We don't have access to it. I don't I don't blame anyone because I really feel like
we're lost in Well, it's not mentioned very often anymore because our culture doesn't mention it. Yeah. Cuz it was
within the church, you know, we're somewhat a part of that culture. Yeah. It's not
It's just not mentioned that often. Yes. Yeah. And I But all of a sudden, I
was like, "This prophet had the answer. It could have saved me a lot of tears and grief. I was like, "Oh man, I'm getting this out to others." Like, and
all I also just felt like this all of a sudden this connection to Harold Bey, I was like, I love this guy. He thinks the
way that I'm thinking now. and and I ended up now reading his biography and okay the story like him and his wife
Fern like there's so much in his biography that's so beautiful visual examples of that women can look to and
be like whoa okay this is how it should be if if we approach it with that humble heart um last Sunday was DNC 84 of
course come follow me um Sunday school um and they were talking about priesthood and of course the teachers up there like women like you have
priesthood too like you know don't stress and um he was like you know you just you just go ahead and and just, you
know, do what you're supposed to do. And this lady rose her hand and she was like, "What are we supposed to do?" And
she was like, "And to who are we supposed to go to learn about this?" And you could tell she was kind of frustrated. But I didn't blame her at all. I was sitting there and I'm like,
"You preach it, sister." Like I've been in this like I empathize with you so much of just feeling lost like what does
it look like to be in a good marriage to actually like your spouse that my marriage is my priority? No, most of the
people I know as soon as they become empty nesters are like identity crisis. It's like my kids are gone. Most women
they're like my kids are gone. What am I supposed to do? Isn't that the purpose of my creation is to create these
children? It's like no, no, no. The purpose of your creation is to unite with your husband in creating a kingdom
in God's kingdom that pushes forward this plan. And children are part of that. I'm not downplaying children at all. Trust me. Like, yeah, I'm very
conservative on that one. But what's the point? Why are these kids here and
what's their place? And I feel like Satan has
I'm going to say this even about the homeschool movement. I feel like I can speak to that because I come from that movement and I've talked to women that
are, you know, teachers, co-op leaders or whatever um that agree we've been kind of going through all of this to
Satan has at times even hijacked good women that are like, "Okay, I'm going to sacrifice. I'm going to give my kids a
home education. and I'm going to, you know, and when that became the priority ahead of their marriage and their
husbands or became a subject of division between them and their husbands, I have seen Satan actually use such a good
desire to destroy the home and destroy those kids to create breakdown. Um, like
not to I'm not being I hope I'm not being too hard on anybody, but but just I I've seen I'm speaking from the
perspective of a young single adult in the church watching this trying to figure out
where's my spot and really asking questions beyond the basics, you know, actually being like, no, do I really
understand this or not? And there there's patterns of thinking that the
prophets in the past have spoken on that we just don't know that do need to be corrected in our thinking. And I think
marriage is absolutely key and I've been going for a long time now. So I'm going to let you talk. Well, it you know it is key and
obviously this is and again going back to how are they thinking about this in the in the family proclamation that is again it's the very first thing.
Yeah. It's not you're be a mother or be a father. It's that's where it all starts. So that's and and
so many times I think there is you know there there was the talk was it President Oaks I can't remember or Elder
Oaks at the time but it was good better. Yeah I can't remember exactly what it was called something like that. Yeah. Good,
better and best and and it was like there is an order to these things and we've been talking about this hierarchy this order.
Yeah. And there's orders of importance there's order of values. Y and at the very top
everything hangs on that. It's like Jesus talking about the the the first and the and the second commandments,
right? Everything hangs on this. And so that's a great example because I'm like I don't want to come across as like, oh,
it's not that important to have kids. Like no, like yeah, I'll side with the prophets on all the old birth control.
Even if you take the second most important thing, yes, like a lot of people do today in the commandments and they switch it
and they say, "Well, I'm going to have my compassion number one for others, but I'm not going to have God first." Right.
It changes everything. everything underneath it falls apart and the people don't get served either.
So, you know, it's not like, oh, I switched it and now I I'm really good at serving people. No, they don't get helped the right way. They Well, they're not anchored. They're not
anchored in the right place. Yes. And so, that that order changes everything. And this really follows this
order in the family proclamation and and starts with um obviously with uh uh man and woman is
wife. Now, I'm I've lost my place here. Hold on. cuz I'm going to suggest children need to be anchored in that same way.
No question. We'll talk about that. And women can sometimes, I think, struggle at this. They're like, "Yeah,
well, I don't know if I totally like my husband. I don't know if we can really work together." Like,
a lot of people might be like, "No, okay. Well, no, I'm going to be honest. I talk to women all of the time." And
they'll be like, "I'm just struggling with this with my husband or I'm struggling with this or I it's hard for
me to forgive him. What do I do in this hard situation?" And there it it I think
the first step to change and hope is just realizing where we're at and realizing things can be better. Like
even if you think, oh yeah, like my marriage is good, just realize like there's a whole another level of amazing
that God has in his plan, um that that can be. And I really feel like if we as
women could get the marriage area figured out, I think all the other problems in our society would straighten
out. Do you think that several women then because they don't have this
order in place sometimes? Yeah. That the thought is, okay, I'm going to get married, but but the thought is,
yeah, okay, that's exciting, great, but but my future is being a mother. Yes.
Right. I'm marrying the man for the kids. Yeah. or or or I'm marry him because I'm in love with him. But are you thinking
like Sarah like, "Okay, I want to help this man become a god, and I'm not going to help him by like, oh, I'll help him.
I can see every one of his problems. I'll fix him." We're not talking about that kind of help. We're talking about
um support and comfort. And and this is actually Joseph Smith goes into this in
his Relief Society teachings. He's like, "When your husband gets home, no critical comments, no criticism, no
nagging." He's like, "When your husband comes down and he's worn down, what he needs is comfort. What he needs is support. He needs to be safe." And
that's a question I'd write asked right there. Like, does your husband genuinely feel safe with you to be whoever he is,
the dirtiest and ugliest parts of his past or his present? Is he safe with you for you to be like, "Okay, this is
right. This is wrong." Not compromising, not tolerance, but really to be safe and be like, "Let's help. Where can we help?
Where where can we support?" and not by fixing but actually helping and
empowering. So it goes from man and woman to gender is the very next thing it talks about.
So it's talking about basically this binary that must be in place. Yeah. That is part of the order
that they're covering here. Right. Right. So it says all human beings male and female are created in the image of
God. Again going back to that idea of who God is. Um but each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly
parents and as such each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual
premortal mortal and eternal identity and purpose. So they're starting to put on the the uh uh the the flesh over the
over the skeleton here of marriage. Yes. And what this is starting to mean and
and again isn't that interesting? They cover gender after marriage. In other words, if you really want to even understand
gender, you have to understand marriage. Yeah, that's what I would suggest. I think a lot of our problems, which is the part, which is the plan.
Yeah. But we always have it backwards. It's just like, okay, well, let's just figure out like boys or girls and and like I don't I don't know where we went
so wrong. I I think it started with a great apostasy, honestly. Actually, yeah. Could I actually make a point just
about that right there? Um, let's remember. So, Jesus Christ comes and we don't have a lot of his
writings, right? We've got very very little with the New Testament, but we know from like Joseph Smith, they had
the priesthood, they had ordinances, temple, all of that, right? So somehow we get from Jesus Christ having a
perfect order of all of this to the great apostasy where people can't even access the Bible in a corrupted form,
you know, and what happened in that one of the main points and tenants of the
great apostasy was marriage is evil, sexuality is evil.
um sexual relations, all of that. Um it's carnal, it's dirty. Well, they used to fast with that. They
used to have sexual fasts. And if you were even even better than that, if you were truly holy and
consecrated to God, you'd never get married, right? You check into a a monastery or a convent. And those are
the those are the holy people, you know, and and so I don't think we realize how
radical it was when Martin Luther leaves the Catholic Church and he gets married. For them,
for him that's going against everything he was indoctrinated from a child and embracing and being like, I've got to
switch everything in my psyche to be like, this is good, not bad. So
it was huge. It was huge. even coming down into the pilgrims, the Puritans, like for them to actually embrace this
to the point that they did to truly be like, "No, this is this is good." But
there was still a lot to restore. So that so then it's even more radical when you get to Joseph Smith where Joseph
Smith is now trying to restore like, "Oh yeah, now and the purpose of marriage is godhood. So we're even putting this even
high more important." And um and and there's different quotes like Brigham Brigham Yang has a teaching in
one of his sermons that um he doesn't use the word ordinance. I'm going to use the word ordinance that
sexual relations is essentially an ordinance. Mhm. Um and but he he says that it should be
sealed by the Holy Ghost and that it should the Holy Ghost should be present and if the Holy Ghost is present that
union will produce prophets and prophetesses like the children would be filled with the spirit and this is what it means like John the Baptist when he's
filled with the spirit from his womb and everything that actually the the laws of sexuality and marriage that the parents
were living when I read that when I was young I was just like mind blown. I was like what? like I've never heard this
before, you know, and it just started me thinking like whoa. Like so again, so we
go from this is evil to this is so sacred like the Holy Ghost is there and
um I I think trying to realize like, okay,
God needs to help us restore our way of thinking and this is beautiful and this is exciting and there's a purpose to it.
I I I feel like fighting this whole the gender wars, all this stuff with marriage and the tax on the family proclamation, if we built up the good,
the bad would just naturally fall away because it can't it can't compete with
the perspective God has. Yeah. Sorry, I know that's a little bit of a tangent. No, that's great. That's good stuff. That's good stuff. So he goes down
through and and and uh the proclamation continues with the gender and it you
know I think what's really important here and and I'm making a a bit of an assumption here which is maybe a little
dangerous because it's on prophetic words from President Nelson but he gave a a talk to young adults three or four
years ago where he put together what I call President Nelson's identity hierarchy
and and and right here it says you know each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents. Well, at the very
top of this was you are a child of God. Mhm. So, so again if we look at an order and
the importance of things that is number one to understand your identity. And then the second was that you are a
uh boy now I'm forgetting the third is a a disciple of Christ. Oh, a covenant.
You're part of the covenant was the second one. And again, like if you don't understand where you are in the covenant, your
marriage is like what marriage are you even entering? So yeah, you know, like everything else is got and then and then it's like and so what
I saw this was, okay, so these are up top here and then there's just a line
under these top three things that he says and every other identity. I mean, we're so immersed in all this identity
stuff. Yeah. Right. But they're all down below. Yes.
You are from a certain country. You are a certain race. You're a certain color. You you might have a certain sexual
orientation. might have whatever. You've got all these little other identities to deal with.
And so much of what happens with the philosophies of men today is grabbing some of these other
identities and putting it to the top. Yeah. Right. And and and same idea, you you
you change that order and things aren't going to work real well. But then he does go down and I say
he keeps saying he um they they move down into okay God and for
families being united the first commandment that God gave Adam and Eve pertain to their potential for parenthood. So now they get
yes to being fathers and and mothers in in this regard. It's like no this isn't
number one. This is this is down below that. Yes. Yes. Um what
he they say we declare that God's commandment of his children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in
force. Um and and it's interesting again to plug
this into where we are today with the fertility rate dropping immensely. Utah dropped 10 spots. Utah
dropped 10 spots last year in the 50 states and is now at 1.6 six
replacement, right? So, it's it's like as a whole, it's crazy. This is it's all, you know, it's it's
Yeah. There's so much here that would straighten things out for us if we would
look at it and understand it. Yeah. And compare it to what's happening in the world. But again, like if we don't know what
God is doing with his children, we don't know why marriage is important or how to even function in a healthy marriage.
Yeah. the kids is kind of just a natural casualty. I mean, why would you bring them into that kind of a hellish mess?
Number one, and number two, why would I put myself through that hellish mess? Yeah. Why? The question of why? And
that's it's I love the way you're you're you're stating this because it's for me, I've got a very practical mind.
I I need the practicality to this. What is the bare bones on this? Yes. instead of this nebulous, well, I
believe this or what what is the practicality of one man and one woman?
Why why are we doing this? And um you know, kind of along the lines of what you're
saying, what what kind of got me going actually on this whole area? I call it the new and everlasting covenant study.
Um because that's basically what it is, but I mean that's a very general term for the entire plan. So anyway, but um I
was studying Joseph Smith's teachings on calling an election and the spirit of Elijah and what it really is. And in a
nutshell, just highly, highly, highly oversimplify it. It's um one of his
quotes is pretty good simplifying it. Just that um a man after he's baptized obtains a remission of his sins. Um if
he's like God, okay, I want to be like Abraham. I want to be like Enoch. The Lord's like, okay, you sure? Let's test
you. M um and he will put him through the ringer. This is what you see with Lehi. You see this with Nephi. You see
this with Joseph Smith. You see this with Abraham. Pick any one of the in the scriptures. You're like, "Why are their lives so hard?" It's because they're on
this path. It's not just because they're picking fights with all their neighbors. It's it's because they're on this path and God is like, "Let me test you with
everything." Jacob's test was different than Abraham's test. Joseph Smith's tests were different. Um because it's
what do you care about? What's important to you? And I'm going to test this. And if um Joseph Smith says if the Lord
thoroughly proves him and shows like okay no matter what I throw at this guy he's going to stay faithful to me. He's
not backing out like Job. He's like then I will speak to him and say okay like I
know I can trust you. So you're not perfect right now but you will be saved
and we're going to get you to be perfect. Like but but we've worked through the conflict of like are you on
Satan's side or on my side? Like are you dueling allegiances here? No, you're 100% for me. I know you're 100% before
me because you've proven it. Um and they call it you're calling an election made sure. Um and there were ordinances and
um pastor of the temple for this. But um but Joseph Smith talks about like why
why would you do this? Why would you go through this? Why why why did Abraham go through everything that he did? And he
explains that we we use the term sealing all the time in the temple. We just throw it around like oh I got sealed
without thinking what that means. The power is when we say, "Oh, my kids are sealed to me." Joseph Smith talks about
you will be endowed with power through the priesthood to be able to pull your
children back no matter where they go. Maybe I mean that doesn't mean maybe they'll be gods in the top tier of the
celestial kingdom, but they won't be lost. They won't be lost into outer
darkness. You will be able to help them come back. Now sometime this has been a
battle of people like debating like agency and everything like this. This is my understanding of how all that works is agency is 100% respected but because
you are now in this place in the priesthood you and your wife. So I say you because it's a team together. You
and your wife will be endowed with power and also understanding of how to work with that
intelligence to persuade with gentleness and kindness and love unfeigned and
everything in DNC 121 until eventually they want to come back where they're like Elma the Younger whatever like and
the Lord will intervene to help you out. Um Elma the younger it's very interesting in the chapter right before the angel shows up to Elma the younger
Elma the Elder receives his calling and election. The Lord tells him, "You are sealed up to eternal life because of all
these sacrifices that you've made." And then what happens? The angel goes and shows up to save because of Elma the Elder.
Right. Right. Exactly. So, as I started studying this, I was like, "Wow, this is
cool." and and wait as a wife like and as like a mother, this is my goal to
help my husband obtain his calling and election and then save our kids and and
join this incredible ecosphere of these gods that are just in this progression
of happiness. I was like, this is cool. Okay, like I want to be part of this.
And um I'm going to throw something just on the whole gender thing, not to get controversial with the LGBTQ thing, but
um when a man enters this order, there there were ceilings that used to happen in the temple for this. They were called
the law of adoption where if your biological father wasn't of the caliber to be able to, you know, because a a man
can't achieve this without being connected to a man who's greater than him to kind of like help him along. This is why Abraham, his biological dad is
not so good. So he goes to Melazdc. that becomes like his father. Um, someone
like Jacob could do it. Other others had to Moses goes to Jethro, his
father-in-law, right? And Jethro becomes his father in the priesthood. In the early days of the church, they were doing this as well. Um, New K. Whitney
was sealed to um I believe it was Hec Kimbell. He Kimble was sealed to Joseph Smith. Like, so it's in this chain of
understanding. And some people are like, they didn't understand what they were doing. They were just playing around with ceiling. No, no, no. they just
understood far more about what's going on in this plan of godhead in my opinion and priesthood um than we do. Um but
there's so there's this whole pattern of sealing and and Joseph Smith says this is the ceiling on the forehead. So in Revelation when it talks about people
being sealed on the forehead, it's not about some creepy kooky thing out there. It's it's priesthood stuff. Um, the
rainbow according to the Joseph Smith translation is a symbol of this covenant of these men with their wives being
covenanted together to save the kids. And the covenant is, this is in JST Genesis 9, that when the children
decide, we want to listen to these dads, the dads are going to have the power to pull those kids up. It's the star of
David, the triangle coming down, the triangle coming up. And he says, "When you see that rainbow in the sky, that
rainbow is the symbol to remind you those dads are calling to you and they
can help you." When I started connecting some of this, I was like, that's why
Abraham went through all that cuz he cared about me. He cared about us enough to be willing to go through hell his
whole life because he was like, because then I can help them and I can help un and millions that he was willing to do
that. And do I have that same desire to help others and and enter this covenant of priesthood? The rainbow has been
hijacked for what? Gay marriage. Mhm. Marrying men to men. I think it's a
counterfeit of the priesthood binding of these men. A righteous, wholesome
binding of men that love each other in these righteous fathers and sons with a
different Yeah, that's perspective. a a full um I mean it is a a a
move out from the order. Yep. I mean it's just it's just a move out from the order that we're covering right now. And that's why the colors are backwards.
Um but the rainbow is a fascinating thing to study even scientifically. It's a full circle. So it's a symbol of
eternity. Like there's just so once you start seeing where you're like whoa God has this everywhere and we just miss it.
and and and as as speaking as a woman, I feel like if women started connecting like, okay, wait, and I was doing this
in the premortal life. I was part of this in the premortal life. This is what I was fighting for. Like when I was
like, I I signed up for Jesus Christ. This is what you were learning and embracing and being a part of and
fighting for. And you can do it today. All of a sudden, it's like, oh, now I
understand why marriage is important instead of just like, you got to get married. You know, you gota you got to have kids. Well, why? because that's
God's plan. Like why? This doesn't sound very fun. You know,
it's interesting with uh section 121 you were talking about and you brought up Job
and so there's these trials that we're going through and and uh you know, Joseph Smith is in Liberty Jail and he's
like, "What is going on? Where are you? Where art thou?" Right? And and
and it puts into perspective. Well, they you have this archetype who's Job.
Yeah. Right. He says, "Are you even as Job?" Right. At this point, yeah, you haven't been. So, he puts up this archetype of
suffering to to Joseph Smith. And then he says, "Are or myself or even as me?"
And you think to yourself, well, why would the Savior say that? Is he saying, look, you're not even you haven't even suffered as much as I have. Stop
whining. No. But no, right? It's like you're saying, it's it's no, this is this is the path.
Yes. And I'm the one you anchor to because I suffered the most. Yeah. I went through all of this. And why did he suffer?
And why did he suffer? Right. I love the scripture that says he suffered so that he knew how to sucker
us. Mhm. And there is a paradigm that in the scriptures I believe that's the same
reason righteous priesthood husbands and wives do the same is they are willing to
go through suffering so they know how to help their posterity
to be able to say I know what you're going through now I know how to reach you now I know how to speak to you and
you can't do that without experience you can't you're not going to learn it from a book and so it's amazing to see this
caliber of these amazing men and women and hopefully we can become like them, but that are like, "Yeah, I'm willing to
go through hell and I'm willing to suffer so that I can help you." And that's that's why they're rulers.
Yes. And and it's it's a difficult process because
there's most of the time in that situation there's not reciprocity.
Yeah. And you have to know that going in. It's like that reciprocity. I mean, there can be down the road pro possibly and maybe
even right away. Yeah. But it's I do this regardless in the hope. Yes.
Right. And that reciprocity may not come back. And and that's of course what the savior did. And so when he says come follow me in my
mind when he says come follow me I think of the garden. Yes. And and I think of the cross. You know
it's like okay that's that's what he means. Yeah. You need to go through difficult times
and overcome all of this both for your progression and for how you're going to help others.
Yes. It's not, well, do as I say. Can I um pull on this, too? Um
I'm I'm going to leave this vague, so I'm just going to leave it. If you go to the temple, the cross is connected to um
marriage. And I think there's a level that's symbolic with Christ in the church, but
I think it's also your individual marriage. Yes. That the the the cross is very important. And
in the parable of the 10 virgins, the women have oil. Mhm. in their lamps. And we're always like, "Oh, yeah. Yeah." No. How is oil
produced? How did those women obtain oil? Well, oil is produced with
pressing, intense pressing where the first pressing, you know, you get the purest oil and it's great, but it's and
then and then they add more stones. So, it gets even heavier and more intense. That's the second pressing. The third pressing is so intense that the oil
looks like blood. It's so that and so the women have this oil. I think there's
a lot more there about them following the path of Jesus Christ and being willing to go through experiences and
going through it and endure faithfully that enabled them to have o oil then combined with okay I'm not a
scientist but produces light right when it's when it's um and so light illumination truth the word
of God but if you don't have oil in you it doesn't matter how many times God hits you with heat it it no light is
going to illuminate It's it's your experiences, your your faith, the trials
you've gone through, the things that you've built. Um, in in ancient Heb Hebrew times, sin offerings could not
include oil. So, oil is only connected to offerings. Meaning, this isn't about,
oh, I did something wrong, so I'm suffering for it. This is you're innocent.
You don't have to do this. It's not fair. But you're choosing to go through
this trial. You're choosing to go through this suffering as an offering to the Lord. And through that oil is
produced and that oil combined with the Lord creates light that I believe from
speaking from the perspective of a woman empowers a woman to then be able to bless her husband to bless her children
to say I can now minister to you. I can truly be a rescuer. You know, we talk
about the word help me and how it means a rescuer, an aid, you know, and but
you're not going to get to that point of being able to be a rescuer without going through hard things to equip you. But if
you can do it for the same reason Jesus did out of love and and again, you have
to love your husband enough to do this. You have to love him for who he is with
the good, the bad, and the ugly. and be like, "Okay, I'm willing to do whatever
it takes to help you and rescue you and save you so that you can get to the same
point that Abraham did." Okay, maybe I'm just a hopeless romantic, but I think that's the most beautiful thing in the
world. And nothing wrong with being a helpless romant, right? But if women could see like,
wait, I really have the ability to do this. And then it comes down to, do you want to choose? Do you want to be submissive? Do you want to be meek? Do
you want to choose the path of Jesus Christ? And some people are like, no way. Yeah, I want a tustrial order. This is not
fair. And that's your choice. That's your choice. But you got to realize this is the path of joy. It doesn't seem like it's the paradox. But
truly to achieve this godhead, it is and it is joy. Well, joy actually is
tied also. Often times it's called the oil of joy. But it's but the other the other thing to look at that in that
parable that's really interesting is you know that ties those five women
that have the oil to Christ. Is uh Gethsemane.
Yes. Gethsemane means the oil press.
So that is right. That's the oil that's being produced. Yeah.
And or the olive press. The olive press. Yeah. Yeah. It's the olive press. And so it's it's
that's the oil as you're saying, right? That's what the oil is. Yes.
Very interesting. So I want to get to this part because I've heard you allude to this before, but not
not expand on it. Oh dear. And and that is uh this
what do I call it? How do I not be controversial on this? Uh, wow. Now I'm
really curious because I've got my thoughts on this also and it's difficult for a man to talk about this.
Okay. But uh, by divine design, it says fathers are to
preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to
provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these
sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. So in my mind
this has been obliterated and and I don't mean from
one side right I think it's been obliterated from both sides I I think that uh I do think
that feminism has a part of this uh but it's
I you look at the distractions for men today they it pulls them all away from this
role. Mhm. Right. And you look at some of the philosophies out there for women, it
pulls them away from this role for sure that is here. And one of the issues is
this critical theory that goes out there which is always built between a victim and an oppressor.
And hey, this is how I'm going to look at this. Then I have a filter of the world of victim and oppressor. So men
are the oppressors and women are the victims. And men being leaders here, is
it lead or is it preside? Preside is is automatically puts us into that false
dichotomy of those two roles. Mhm.
As you I don't know if it was before we started recording or not, but you had said something that I agree 100% with,
which is the definitions have to be understood. Yeah. On these things. Yes.
Talk about that. Okay. So, fair disclosure, I am an unapologetic
supporter of the patriarchal order, but when I say patriarchal order, um, I do
mean the true term. Um, and I fully understand why some people
would not understand why an order like that could work. Um, and it is because we're broken
on both sides. The men are broken, the women are broken, the children are broken, everyone's broken. And um and
and and we have to get back to that. Um there is
people like to read this a lot of different ways, right? Like, oh, preside doesn't really mean you're leading
anything. It just I don't know. I don't know what it means. It's just poo pooed away. The whole
thing is just I don't want to deal with this. Um, what I'm going to say is the
prophets, all the Okay, I believe in all the prophets, all of them, the dead ones and the living ones. It's just like all
them. And I really feel like you need all of them to actually get the full perspective. Um, we're not going to get
into Eve here, but there's a whole conversation where I've even had 180s on that where I was like picking and
choosing prophets and I'm like, "Okay, this one or like this one." And then I had to sit down and be like, "No, they all have the truth on it. Put it all
together." And that's where like they all have their strengths putting it all together. So, um, I believe that
teachings from Brigham Young, Joseph Smith, and others on what the patriarchal order means, what it means for a man to lead. I think they're true.
Um, with the understanding of trying to put it into full perspective and understand, okay, DNC21, how do you lead the right way? It's not with compulsory
means and force. But to be honest, if there is a man with integrity, not
perfect, but a man with integrity, I think it's instinctive and good women or
at least a good woman that's connected to him like in marriage or something. You know, patriarchal order is not all
women following all men. No, it's who is your priesthood head and work together
um in that team. And it doesn't mean you're not equals. It just there has to be order. Okay. It's like President
Nelson has the final say on if if you're baptized or not. You know, if he says
you're not baptized, you're not baptized. And it's not democratic. We don't get up in general conference. It's like, well, he excommunicated this
person, but now we're going to like vote. Like, there has to be order and there has to be structure. And at the same time, we're not talking about my
way or the highway again, right? And that's where, okay, he has to lead the right way. A woman has to submit the
right way. But Brigham said that every woman has a right to be married to a man that's greater than she is. A man who
can pull her through the veil, a man who can help lead her to Christ and help her
get to Christ. Now, I don't think that means like oh like perfect like that just means does he have the strengths
that come from higher value? No, no, no, no, no, no. just means he has strengths and um perspective and
experience that truly can help nurture and protect you in the places that you are weak. And I think women struggle
with maybe admitting that there are places where they are weak and they need that
because it is scary. Um it can be scary because of trust issues. It can be scary because of bad examples. But at some
point, trusting God has a plan and that that plan will work and that order will work and just trying to put it into
place one step at a time, I think is important. Um, I'm going to read this just one quote from Joseph Smith's. I
just almost feel like this is opening a huge can of worms. I'm like, okay, how do you open it up?
I'm like this whole, you know, because there's just so much and I don't want like
why why did we choose God to be our father? I don't think that was forced. I
think we choose him because he of his honor and his integrity. Why why do I
why do I respect Joseph Smith? It's actually not because he's brilliant personally or um oh I think he's amazing
teachings. He saw father and son. It's because I've studied his life. He laid his life down so that I could have hope.
He when the mobs came up to Far West, he turned himself in so everyone else could
be saved. That sacrificial, he wasn't perfect, but that just undying
loyalty and love and and honor and integrity.
Okay, maybe I'm the only woman like this, but man, I I I will give my life to any man like that. Like, he doesn't
have to be perfect. It's just okay that those core values. Um and so like women
need understanding like yes that needs to be in place and if it's not in place you have a role in helping him get
there. Um this is Joseph Smith on husband's wives. He says it is the place of the man to stand at the head of his
family and be lord of his own house. Not to rule over his wife as a tyrant
neither as one who is fearful or jealous that his wife will get out of her place and prevent him from exercising his
authority. It is his duty to be a man of God. For a man of God is a man of wisdom, ready at all times to obtain
from the scriptures the revelations and from on high such instructions as are necessary for the edification and
salvation of his household. And on the other hand, it is the duty of the wife to be in subject to her husband at all
times. Because what is the contest? Subject to what? Subject to the revelation that's coming through. So if the Lord's like, "If I'm speaking to
this man and I'm giving him revelation, like wife and kids, like can you guys get on board with this or or fighting
it?" Lehi's a good example. Um uh he says, "Not as a servant." So
you're not a servant, neither as one who fears a tyrant or a master, you know, but as one who in meekness, which is
power under control, right? Power channeled with wisdom to use it in the
right way. and the love of God regards the laws and institutions of heaven and looks up to her husband for instruction,
edification, and comfort, even as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him Lord. So, this is this picture Joseph Smith is
portraying. It's an ideal that's pretty rare. It
needs to be restored. And God is, in my opinion, God is saying
there's a reason it's set up this way. And this is this will bring happiness and joy. Faith precedes the miracle.
you know, um we live in a really, really broken world, um where
this can be really, really scary to even just go to God and be like, "Okay, Lord, I'm open to you teaching me about this.
What does this actually look like?" You know, I I I am a believer if something hits someone wrong, like bad, it's
either they're not understanding it right, or, you know, there's something more to be understood. or something.
There's a peace or something. And
I don't I this this is a heavy heavy thing to
try to walk through. I'm like sitting here. I'm like, okay, I can feel the emotions of women that might be listening to this. And I'm sitting here.
I'm like, how do you explain and show this? I I would send out a call out that we
need faithful women to study this out, get revelation, build righteous homes and marriages to be good examples
because our world is so dead of good examples. I don't I don't know who to point you to. I don't know movies, you
know, like I'm not saying everyone's awful. What I'm saying is to truly say like, "Oh, that's a great example of where like the husband is leading and
he's getting revelation from God and he's a prophet in his home and and look at how like that just builds up the wife
and and when she listens to that and he can lead her." But but it does happen and it can happen
through very imperfect men. Men have have a gift through the priesthood to be
able to receive revelation to guide. And I think if women can see their place in
helping them magnify that gift and being open to receiving revelation from God
through that man, they will see the windows of heaven open and the Lord being able to do things they never
thought were possible. I don't know what what did I say that doesn't make sense there cuz I I think I think it all makes sense.
But the reason it's a can of worms is because where where we've gone to in our culture and in and our thought process.
We're just trying to get people married, let alone Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And I think let alone HR. And this is my experience
that I've seen with, you know, my own wife and and my struggles and uh
weaknesses, but but even more so beyond so many other couples and and and
you know, where I'm privy to certain things because of leadership positions or whatever, there's there's actually in
the church at least, and I would say probably broadly, yeah, very broadly,
there are more women begging their men to lead.
It's like you talk about fixing them sometimes. It's like, okay, you don't want to go and fix them. But that's more
of what I see is please lead the family.
Can I suggest a reason why I think some men might not? Mhm. And you I mean you speak to this, you're
the expert, not me. I wonder if sometimes if men feel that they can't because they will be rejected
and it's not safe to step. I think today that is true. I think today there is no question.
I don't blame him. I'm like does does that woman really want him to lead his way or does she want him to lead a
female's way, right? Like lead the way I would lead, you know, lead family scriptures but do it the way I would do
it, the time I would do it, how I would do it. And if you do it a different way,
I mean, I've heard women debating about like, I don't want my husband babysitting the kids because he feeds them differently than I do. Or like,
yeah, it's like, he's different than you for a reason. And you need that. Let him
use his talents and be open and humble enough to be like, "Huh, that's a radically different way than I would
have approached that. Let me learn from that." Uh this this is the meekness lesson God had to teach me where the
Lord was like Hannah you think things have to be like a certain way instead of
recognizing the strengths and being open and humble and teachable and realizing like hey let someone else lead you and
teach you and show you a whole another world. I think that that is true. I do think
that's true. I would also say though on on the men's side that you defend the women, I'll defend the men.
There we go. I I think that there is a sometimes a loss of understanding of what that might
mean to preside. Yes. Or to lead. Sure. Right. It's not my way or the highway. And it's not
it it's not a privilege. It's just the opposite. We've been talking a lot here about suffering.
Yeah. We've been talking about the example of the Savior in Gethsemane and and these lessons that need to be taught. Yeah. I
look as an example uh of of this to actually to Isaiah and the suffering
servant. Yeah. Which I believe is a temple drama ritual that is happening
about King Hezekiah who is acting as the savior in that role of this temple drama. Right? And he's going through
this idea of this suffering servant and how you have to lower yourself. And I tie that directly over to
the last week of the Savior where he is called king over and over again. And
that's the week he suffers, right? And and uh he comes in on a royal procession
from the east gate of Jerusalem. It's all tied together into this idea of suffering, this idea of king.
And then you go to King Benjamin's speech which is on service. Yep. And it's a royal coronation of his son
that there happening right there. And it's like this is what this is or Jesus
talking about the greatest among you is the least among you. Yes. Right. Okay. So presiding
it's like if women want the priesthood like really you want the servant role like you want to be the one that gravels. You want the one that gets the crumbs off the table.
Yeah. But that's what presiding and leading to you should be. And so the the phrase
that needs to be taught that's not is is um the servant king. Yes.
Right. You you need to be the servant king of your family. Yes. where where that leadership is
coming from sometimes suffering. You're going to you need to bear the burdens of your
wife and your kids and and in order to be able to lead. Yes. And that will draw them to you.
Yeah. Right. If if you do that. So I think that also needs to be understood on the men's side. Yes. Of what that really
means. 100%. And you know, as you were just saying that, I really liked you bringing in the suffering servant of realizing,
okay, we're in a broken world. So, no matter how well you study the gospel or
whatever, like trying to put this into practice, it's going to be really messy and neither side is going to do it
right. You're not going to be a perfect wife. He's not going to be a perfect husband. You're not going to be a perfect mother. He's not going to be a perfect father. You're trying to figure
this out and realizing, okay, so obviously, let's lay down the given. We're not talking about abusive
situations, unhealthy scumbags, you know, we're we're talking about just good people. So, just, you
know, you marry someone who's got goodness in them. They've got the they've got the the fundamentals in them
to become that God, no matter how much garbage and is on top of it, right? Um,
it's going they both sides need patience putting up with the other person trying
to figure this out, trying to work through it, trying making a mistake. Oh,
okay. I tried that. That didn't work. Okay, let's let's try this again. Oh, okay. That's how you do it. We're You're
not going to enter into this with somebody that's like, I am the expert. I know how to lead perfectly. I know how
to discipline and chastise perfectly. I I I know how to be the perfect nurture.
I know how to be the perfect comforter. And I think sometimes I I'll say even just like recently I the
more the more I study and the more the Lord leads me leads me the more I'm like the more you realize you don't have what
you don't have figured out you know and I'm just thinking man I'm just like it's so broken to be a woman actually in this
culture and just I was talking to my aunt last night too and I'm just like it's so hard trying to figure this out
and and I was I was thinking I was like if I could just marry someone who can just be like Okay, I get it. You You
haven't had a ton of good examples. You haven't like, you know, you're trying to figure this out. I'll be patient with you while you're trying to figure it
out. It's like, oh, thank you. Okay, I'll be patient with you while you're trying to figure it out. And just remembering like, so John Taylor has a
quote. He has this amazing discourse. It's called the origin, object, and destiny of women. And he's writing to
women in Latter- Day Saint Women. And he's like, "This is who you are." And he talks about the premortal life. and he talks about how Latter-day Saint women
in the priesthood, in the premortal life, made covenants with their parents and with um a guardian angel and with
their spouse before they would come to earth. I'm not promoting the idea of a soulmate, but the idea that if you're entering that priesthood order, there's
four ordinations and there's covenants that were made before. That's John Taylor. Um so, if you kind of just go
along with that thinking and you think like if you're married right now and and you're looking at your spouse and
thinking, you know, I I made a covenant with this person. I saw something in this person in the premortal life, you
know, that told me, I want him to lead me. I'll join in this priesthood order with him. He he he has the capability to
do that. You saw something there. Both of you then came to earth. You have
bodies. You have mortal frailties. You are not the same person you were in the
premortal life. He's not the same person he was. He's a very fallen, messed up, confused version. You might not rec like
if you put the two side by side you probably wouldn't recognize the two you know you're like where's that person like I knew in the premortal life it's
not you like where did he go that's mortality and we chose to come to
mortality this whole story with Adam and Eve because we had faith in Jesus Christ plan and we believed that by condescending we could actually ascend
and by going through this and and you had faith in that. So have faith that
Jesus Christ can heal him just like he can heal you. And you need that. You
need to be reborn. You need to be changed to get back to where you were. Get back to paradise. Get back to that
garden of Eden. Um, and that again like as women I think take that first step
like take that first step of being patient and loving and showing that
Christlike love um can go a long way. Um the two visuals that kind of come to my mind
with that is well three actually um King Lemonai when King Lemonia is in his
three days of darkness right he's pretty crazy guy he's going to come out of this 3 days later completely changed
it doesn't happen in three days at least for no one I've seen maybe maybe for a few but very most of us this is a long
journey but I think that's kind of a metaphor for us in our lives where we have to go through we're one way and we
have to be changed and reborn. I think the three days of darkness King Lemonia is in is symbolic of Christ in the tomb
for three days. I think it's a symbol of resurrection, re being reborn and everything. King Lemonia's wife is like,
I don't know if he's going to make it out of this. Is he dead? So, she goes to Ammon. I I think the type of women think
if you're like, my husband is dead spiritually. This is a mess. This is a
wreck. Satan has won the battle. Give up hope. Turn to the prophets. The prophets
have this advice. They're like, "Hey, no, there's a solution. There's a plan of redemption." And Ammon tells King
Lemonai's wife, he tells her, "He's He's not dead. He's He's going to wake up and he's going to wake up on the third day."
And she has such faith in that. I don't know how she had so much faith cuz she's like, "I don't have any witness but your
word." But okay. Like, how do you just believe? That's simply um really amazing. I want to have that faith one
day. But she doesn't just say, "Okay, great. God's going to save him." you know, so same with your husband, like,
"Okay, great. He'll get it figured out. You know, Jesus will help him. I I'll go check out, you know, while he's doing his work, and I'll be back for the good
times later." King Lemon's wife sits by her husband's bedside the whole night,
never leaving. She knew he wasn't going to wake up. Why did she sit there? She was watching. She was walking with him
through it. Um, this is me kind of drawing some parable and allegory out of the story obviously, but I think that's
actually a parable for us as women today. He's going through that darkness.
He's going to be reborn. Have faith in that. Jesus Christ has promised through this plan, everything will be restored.
Everyone will be made whole again. Healing is possible.
Don't abandon him at that lowest point. He needs you. Stick with him. Just like
even Mary at the tomb, right? Like she goes to the tomb. It's it's this beautiful these examples of these women
like I'm going to go through um that fire. And in the scriptures, women are
often described as pillars. If you look at the Nauvoo temple, you have the Nauvoo Sunstones, which is this rising
um I think it's a type of a rising sun. And there's reasons you could go into with all these Joseph Smith quotes, but it's basically not just Christ as the
rising sun, but these other kings and priests, these men, these priesthood holders that God is rising up um to
become part of this kingdom, and it's supported by a pillar. That it's heavy though. Think what that
pillar is putting up with. Think what that pillar has to carry. It's, you know, we think, "Oh, that's so cool. Like, I'm a pillar. It's beautiful."
Yeah, you're bearing the weight. But Joseph Smith says in one of his quotes, he says, "Women were designed with the
ability to carry that weight with their husband. You were literally equipped with the
power to be able to help and fight this battle. You are strong. You are strong and you are capable. And that's why you
have these talents. You can do this." And if we can just have faith to put as
women power and testimony and faith into the plan, I believe we could really radically restore our entire culture.
Very good words. I believe that too. Going back to the order. So finalizing the proclamation here, we've got the
warnings of all the calamities. If this order we're talking about all falls apart, what's going to happen? What are
the results? What are the consequences? and we're starting to fall into this at this point. And unfortunately, I know
that there's been a little there's actually been a little bit of a tick up on marriages uh in in the last year and
a half or so. But it's uh it's not just a matter of marriage. It's not just a
matter of even kids. It's just everything that has pulled that order apart that continues to even within the
church, we get ideas that we have to be at one of the darkest times. Yeah. It it's it's
Yeah. I think I think that there are several of those dark times that we've seen before. Yeah. My guess is they are going they've gone
through the exact same thing that we're going through right now uh in those times.
But I I think for members of the church, you know, there's there's two approaches to
this idea that that I've seen. One is that well we're just going to step into Zion
and let Babylon act as it will endure just hide in that bunker and just hang out and
and the other is well we need to speak up and we have to try and re I'm not going to say reverse it I
don't know if that's possible but but invite right talk make people aware I
mean you're talking about things that are really important right now that people I know need to hear and to me
that awareness needs to be put out there and it's got to be based on why is the
practicality of this. Why is marriage important? Why is family important?
Yeah. And without that context, that understanding, it's easy to fall into victimhood and
oppressor. It's easy to fall into, well, what's in it for me? You know, we're distracted by all these other
battles. But I really think like this is the foundation. If we want to save the constitution, it needs to be done by
couples. If we want to rebuild the economy, it needs to be done by couples instead of oh, like we're just going to
like marriage and family is the vehicle to do it. And I love what you're saying. How I've always thought of it in my mind
is we need to not be survivors through this, but rebuilders. So instead of just like, okay,
yes, make it through. if I could just make it through to be there like no let's have a
more optimistic attitude of like yeah everything is falling apart let's rebuild let's let's go in there like
Nehemiah and the walls all falling down he's like participants let's let's build this yes lift and build instead of tearing down
or just putting the blinders on yeah appreciate that Hannah thanks so much for your wisdom and for your time
thanks Greg
