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all right welcome to Quick show my name is Greg Matson and I am your host in this episode we have got my good friends
Kurt frankum and Pastor Jeff McCulla here the three of us all together for the very first time the Three Amigos
welcome Kurt and Jeff yeah this this could get dangerous but thanks for having us so yeah this is exciting I
didn't realize it until uh we were doing the preall here that as much as I talk with Greg and as much as I talk with
Kurt I don't think we've all three been in the same conversation so this is going to be fun yeah yeah well we'll see
what happens here this will be fun um so you've got a hello Saints virtual Summit
coming up it's an Interfaith virtual Summit coming up in June and that kind of triggers our our discussion here
today to go over some Interfaith issues and kind of what you've learned each of you have learned in going through uh the
process of working between Evangelical primarily and and and and Latter-Day Saints uh I want to start off Kurt I
want to ask you this first okay what is the hardest thing in trying to start an
Interfaith relationship with a Protestant Evangelical well Jeff makes it easy for
sure but uh I think it a lot of people don't realize you know it really is a skill set uh at least that's been my
experience of man like just getting practice at walking into a church or asking the hard question or or or how do
I respond to a question without getting you know defaulting to being defensive and you know and you know because a lot
of I tell Jeff all the time there's few Latter-Day Saints who haven't had a really negative experience with any
evangelicals I can go back to several on my mission you know where I felt like I was cornered and and I so naturally I
respond to these relationships with uh a little more defensiveness um and so I've
just noticed just my journey engaging with Jeff and uh developing our friendship and working on some of the
videos that it I've felt the skill set kind of develop and I I would love for
more and other people uh to develop the same thing because it's not just oh you know I'll just take a casserole over to
my Baptist neighbor and that's that's good enough I think there's a lot more we could accomplish by engaging in these
in these relationships in a more intentional way yeah you could bring Jello too I mean that yeah that's right
yeah what what so so what is what are these skill sets I mean what is the tool set here that you're that you're talking
about that you've developed I would say you know just starting from a place of of listening and and being open and not
that we're not trying to correct each other or well just so that you're clear I this is what I believe just being open
and and understanding the understanding where they're coming from and there's been uh several conversations with Jeff
or others where I kind of feel like man I completely disagree with what you're saying but I can sit with that I can
listen you know so and sometimes that that uh we're we're afraid of these conversations because we feel like well
I got to be able to to come back with two or three scriptures as far as what we believe but it's okay to just just
listen and absorb the information yeah Jeff same question to you what has been the hardest thing in your last year and
a half for more uh in trying to create a relationship with Latter-Day Saints an Interfaith relationship right because
there's a separate little relationship you can all be neighbors you kind of be friends but but for us three for example
religion is a big part of our relation ship yeah right it is in fact it's right there at the center of all of this and
yet yet we're all really good friends yeah I think that the um maybe the the
frustration that I experience um well first of all let me say the thing that I don't have to deal with that Kurt and you have to deal with and that is when a
lary saint is engaging with an Evangelical it can be so unpredictable you don't really know what you're dealing with because it could be
somebody who is very hostile it could be somebody who's actually on the opposite and very you know open and welcoming or
it could be someone in the middle who doesn't know a ton and as they learn a little bit more from you they are
willing to kind of engage or they don't know a whole lot but once they learn about more from you then they like push
away and say wait a minute I don't want anything to do with you there's this unpredictability that I can acknowledge
just within my own context that I haven't had to deal with because one thing that's made it somewhat easier
than I was expecting is the receptivity that latterday Saints have to these types of conversations and I I give
credit to the missionary culture that you guys have and uh getting the Reps in
going door too or engaging with people at you know in various other missionary
contexts there's a lot of training that goes into it and some skin that gets thickened um I believe and maybe even
some patience that that can develop so um there's there's so much that makes
the conversation inviting from my standpoint that I don't hit that frustration off the bat my frust
frustration doesn't come until I get a little further into the conversation and there
is uh there there have been through the history of the church I don't know the sources there's probably they're
probably varied but there are there are certain like onliners or there are certain um maybe
scripts that I I can tell the way I put it is I can tell when somebody kind of kicks into missionary mode and they
begin to regurgitate something that's been fed to them is a misconception or misrepresentation that I have to be like
hold on a second let's let's walk this back a little bit and I know that latterday Saints deal with that as well but you know I think a good example is I
was talking to somebody who is trying to prove to me why all the different translations of the Bible are bad and
it's the reason why we have infant baptism and I was like I have no idea what you're talking about I haven't even
heard that one where did you hear that and they were evidently trained to say well one of the things that you know
infant baptism comes from is a different version of the Bible I like yeah that's not true let's let's try to walk that back and let me
so it's it's more of the there there are some collective perceptions that latterday
Saints have and um just kind of rewiring re retraining and re um educating can
can get a little bit uh a little bit frustrating only because I have to say it over and over again okay so you know
what I would say is you know I remember uh uh Jeff you and I had a presentation to several 100 latterday Saints a couple
months ago and and one of the things we were talking about there was we were talking a little bit of Doctrine at the
time and you had said something that that I would disagree with at that time
and I remember turning the audience say well you know I could debate I could I could I could uh argue this point right
but there what's the point of doing that and I think that's the thing that I've learned the most in an Interfaith relationship is stop trying to be right
you know that shouldn't be the primary issue that you're looking at and that's what's frustrating to me and that's not just with Protestant it could be it
could be Jewish it could be Muslim it could be Catholic it it doesn't matter right when when we're putting forward
the idea that we're right because I think I'm right you think you're right Jeff and and Kurt you and I would have
disagreements too you know you think you're right I think I'm right but but when that becomes Primary in a disc an
Interfaith discussion you you you have just eliminated any chance to build a
relationship uh be because You' PRI prioritized the argument over the person
right and and so and and I think in our Traditions we've both done that to the
point of you know you know a Bible bashing kind of a a a scenario where
it's like yeah but look at Ephesians XYZ or or you know look at John you know and
it's like hold on here you know let's just stop and talk about this a little bit and build a relationship and and
what I've really appreciated with you Jee is you know we've built a relationship where I can actually go in
and say something I really disagree with without I think breaking a trust with
you because it's already built right there's already like you
know I care about you you I hope right I I you know I care about you you know
that that you're a friend of mine and so we can actually talk about these other
things with a base a foundation of a relationship and trust that that's
already in place yeah one thing I'll insert there is that I think in that
definitely in our tradition Greg and and I'm sure with with Jeffs or the Protestant tradition is we we sort of U
hold up this the value of of Truth like to be Paramount like we've got to get to the truth and if we can't get to the
truth like that's the most important um and I see this many times in our you know we we worry about individuals maybe
losing faith uh you know just generally speaking or or leaving our faith tradition and so we default to well if
they just knew the truth if I just got them the history and and the re the references and the resources like and
they just knew the truth that would do it when in reality I think as humans how we're built is typically we value
relationship above truth now truth is still important I don't want to diminish that and I think it's a a worthwhile
effort to continue to learn and and go after truth however I think relationship
is is Paramount in a lot of these Dynamics even with our relationship with God and you know Greg we've had conversations about this as well on your
your podcast where we you know we we just want to default to truth and reality it's like whatever Keeps Us
engaged in the relationship with God that's good enough for me and we there's probably things I believe that are
untrue there's probably things that Jeff believes that are that we'll find out some day or untrue but nonetheless we're both engaged with this relationship with
God and we're that relationship is going to be highlighted and uh we we'll learn that relationship more as we engage with
each other and and seek relationship uh rather than just Tru truth yeah and I
think that's that's where collectively when when what we've been able to experience on a a one-on-one level or or
maybe a micro Community level within this hello Saints experience or
experiment that's been going on where when you zoom back one of the things that I um am realizing a couple things
one there have been others that have gone before us that have really tried to broker these types of conversations and
for whatever reason they they've become Echoes of the past and 27 years ago a book was released called ha wide the
divide by um you know guys like Richard Millet and and uh Robinson from BYU and
blomberg and Ma from Evangelical seminaries and they actually um all took
a lot of flak for that we're talking in the late 90s and if you go and you look at how wide The Divide just that book
and and its summary even on Amazon it's interesting because you know it talks about how the readers of this book are going
to be quite surprised at where there's alignment even though there are fundamental
differences and um the way my wife puts it as we've been sort of walking through
this is there's so much that uh so much that we can and should be
connecting over and having to work through and reconcile the frustration that that I can experience and deal with
is is that there isn't quite as much motivation from the Evangelical side to really engage there beyond proling
beyond converting people um again if there are people that feel that draw
okay but why is that all we're doing and I like the way that Joy she said it the other day she goes here we are we've
been doing this for a couple years Joy's my wife by the way for people who don't know we've been doing this for a couple years we now are in
Utah um we are now the the way the way I've been putting to like we we are now
like pretty much we're in zerah himla and nobody on the outside knows what's
going on over here and what can be frustrating for us is we're almost feeling this burden of responsibility
which is one of the motivations behind the summit to let people know what's on the other
side of the burnt Bridges because there has been so much thought and processing and refinement
from a latterday saint standpoint when it comes to um your own faith culture
beliefs doctrines and there needs to be a massive refresh there and and so by
bringing more voices to the table with this Summit that's the hope is to get Beyond you know this let me follow up
with that Jeff real quick why is that important why why is that important that there is an understanding on the on
either side but in your instance you're saying from the Evangelical side across those bridges you know how wide The
Divide why is it important to cross
that um I mean I think there's a lot of reasons I think from a cultural standpoint you'll hear a lot of people
say well and this I'll hear this mainly from latterday Saints this culture this world this Society is moving in a
specific Direction and those of us who are of Faith at some point we're going to need each other so we've got to stop
beating each other up I think that there's there's some of that there um I
think another reason why it's important is because um we're hurting each
other I just I really feel like we are and I get you know I can hear my Evangelical say right now well the truth
hurts it's like yes I get it but Jesus didn't have to hurt the woman at the
well whenever he was talking about truth you didn't have to hurt Nicodemus they didn't walk away hurt if anybody got
hurt it was the Rich Young Ruler who went away sad because Jesus said you have to sell all your stuff and that was
completely because he was he was showing them how he was showing the the audience how we can disconnect truth from Love
And I think we hurt one another too often in this space when when we can have healthy relationship I think the
third reason why it's important and we've talked about this on the presentation that we gave Greg um
because when we're preaching at each other till we're blue in the face at some point it stops looking like Jesus
to me if we both claim to follow Jesus and I get there's going to be arguments on whether it's the same Jesus and all
that other stuff different different conversation but the reality is we both claim to follow Jesus both desire to
emulate uh the one who is represented in the gospels and are we doing that and I
would contend between both Faith groups we've not done a very good job with that historically yeah and I'll I'll add that
another reason why that's important is in my in my experience is my Latter-Day
Saint faith has never been stronger than engaging in these these conversations
and articulating my faith and understanding it more deeply and you know like Jeff said we we've seen these
examples in the past of like Millet and other Scholars you know both latterday Saint and Protestant Scholars coming
together and talking and we almost want to like Outsource it to them like yeah you guys have the conversation because
you guys are really smart and you know the scriptures you know all these things but there's there's a deeper meaning and purpose when we when the lay person
tries to engage in these conversations and the more that that Jeff and others can can model how that's done and that
you're willing to walk across the the street or or engage with your coworker and and have these really meaningful
discussions um I think it's just well worth that and you know one of the most beautiful experiences in this that I've
had is finding maybe a puzzle piece or two in the Evangelical tradition that I love and to turn around and and see oh
that fits perfectly into my tradition as well like of course there's other pieces that where we just miss each other but
to find sort of that Holy Envy in in other Faith traditions and realize that that that can still be uh you know
framed well and and articulated from from my faith tradition as well uh is is
a beautiful Discovery and brings me more brings me closer to God yeah you know I
I you talk about Outsourcing I don't know how much this is relevant in the the the Protestant
World it I'm sure it is to some degree especially to Scholars but uh in the in
the latterday Saint world we we Outsource quite a bit of of the hierarchy yeah right it's like oh yeah
yeah that's your job right Interfaith work is your job you're you're supposed to talk to the leaders of the other churches and and Etc that's the
Interfaith work that happens which I completely disagree with and and I think that's a real shame uh I think it's a
very good point Kurt I think that you you know to to engage with others is to
understand yourself better to understand your beliefs right to be able to articulate them to understand others
beliefs right I think that these are very important things and tools and and skills that we all need to learn that
that make us better human beings right in our vernacular make us better uh children of God you had some something
to add to that Jee yeah I mean I just I think that's why I continue two and a
half years into this feel so energized by the conversation because absolutely there's Outsourcing that takes place in
our context it's usually outsourced to the pastor yeah so here I am um but I'm
not doing it by staying behind my Pulpit within my you know sanitized Church
environment I've gone out and I've tried to be uh I've I'm borrowing this from
you Greg because you're the first one that used this term I think you you label yourself this and I fully align
with this as well as an ambassador you know I don't we don't all have to be evangelists you know we don't all have
to be um teachers and Prophets and all that other some of us it's okay if we
just have that more Ambassador role to go in there and and when when I can emulate to
evangelicals that posture that says when I'm speaking with with a Latter-Day
saying I'm actually going to be advocating for the Protestant Evangelical tradition but when I then go
back to my Evangelical Protestant friends I can advocate for a Clarity and
an understanding of my Latter-Day Saint friends and traditions and cultures and Doctrine and I think um that's exciting
to me right now because this Outsourcing that's been brought to these social media platforms isn't
hanging in the you know the the the atmosphere of
BYU and Fuller Seminary it's it's it's descending down
and it is it's Rippling through the pews it's part of everyday conversation um as to how we can forge
this path together and to me that's what makes this really exciting well and Technology
democratizes Interfaith relationships right right it's like it's it's everybody has this opportunity what
we're doing here right now in fact any of our relationships here probably would not have happened without technology
true I wouldn't know either one of you yeah right so uh Kurt how wide is the
Divide between evangelicals and Latter-Day Saints because you know here's this title how wide is the Divide
I've read I read the book many many years ago I I don't remember what the result was you know I know that they
talked about the some of the similarities and some of the the the the differences and whatnot but do you find
that the more you speak with Jeff and the other other Protestants that that the Divide is not as wide as you might
have thought or not as wide as many latterday Saints may think well you know I'm speaking from uh I'm I'm a Utah boy
right born and raised in Utah you know as the dominant uh religion and so you
know in the traditional you know Arizona Utah Idaho um location I think that
definitely the the white The Divide is wide just because we're not forced to
you know engage with that diversity of of religion a lot you know again it's not necessarily our fault but uh but
where I talk with maybe some of my latterday St friends in you know Springville Missouri or Springfield
Missouri who you know every day they've got the pastor next door or they're you know they're constantly engaging with uh
with different Evangelical faiths I think have a little bit more of a of an understanding or or that the wi the the
The Divide isn't as wide for them just because that's just naturally where they're at but I think it's just
beneficial for those who maybe are too much in that bubble uh evangelic or I'm
sorry the latterday St bubble to say you know I'm gon to make a real effort here to reach out and I drive by this church
all the time and I've never had reason to go there I don't even know anybody attends there but you know what as a
latterday saint or as a bishop as a reliefs sited president I'm gonna walk in there on Sunday or I'm gonna just
find out who the pastor is and start a dialogue and and see if we can make our community better and more and stronger
because of of that Interfaith effort Jeff how what is the Divide yeah
I I think um I would say uh there's a perceived
divide and then I don't know what I would call the other one uh there's there's a
um maybe a divide that we can look at through more spiritual lenses I think the perceived divide is pretty dang
wide um and I I can vouch for that because that's that's where uh we get into the minutia of
different doctrines and as we wait doctrines differently you know
when values on different things 100% so like a Lally saying is being 100% truthful and they're like there's more
similarity than differences it's not the differences aren't that big of a deal right um well that's because they're
they wait their their doctrines differently than an evangelic who going to come back and be like um no but you
know doctrines a they're they're big for us they're a big deal we wait those differently so we there's a lot of work
to do to to close that gap of of of accepting where we each stand and that
doesn't even speak to the misconceptions that you know latterday Saints are only worried about being the
god of their planet on one day or the misperception that you know there's 44,000 Christian denominations and they
all think the other ones are going to hell whatever um we got a lot of work to do to dispel those
misconceptions um now I think
there's a spiritual answer to that question a scriptural answer to that question and Greg it's where you and I
always go back and it's a woman at the well I think um the perceived divide in John
chapter 4 was insurmountable that's the whole point of John chapter 4 it's a woman of sorted
past getting water by herself in the middle of the day in Samaria being engaged by a Jewish rabbi there there's
and I'm not even naming all the reasons why there's there's perceived divide or cultural divide and yet he sat down
right next to her and they had a conversation about physical need spiritual need religious
differences um personal situation and
ultimate uh fulfillment in what God has to offer us where we get into that
I don't think it's that wide I think that there's a lot of really really powerful connection that can be made there if we're just willing to go there
I think that uh you know if I'm answering my own question I think that the I again I if you call the perceived
divide I think it is much smaller than people think um and and it is a
wonderful Christlike Godly endeavor
I believe to to learn from each other and and to learn what our similarities
and our differences are now I do not believe that the point is for any of us
that we try to shrink the actual real divide
right that would mean compromising on what we all believe and and we all have a strong
testimony and and certitude of of certain doctrines that are different
from each other right and and and and to compromise on those would be to compromise on God for
each of us right right so those do exist so I don't think that that the the I was
gon to say El proposito the purpose of this is to is to I'm going back to my missionary days here um is to uh is to
shrink the divide the the key is to understand what is the Divide first because we don't
even know because we're not in each other's camps right right and so much
confusion comes from not just from ignorance yeah on both sides and so if
we can actually just know what the Divide is first because we don't know
just if we know the Divide first and we build that understanding and that
reality off of relationships then we can talk about
these other places where okay we're probably not going to compromise on these things but but we can work with
each other on it right we can I I can look through Jeff's eyes on how he would see this and and have some empathy and
understanding of these things so and that relationship also I believe is is
built in in our case certainly on me understanding Jeff's
Devotion to God right and so I don't have to say you're
wrong Jeff I I I am first going to put a value on Jeff has a good heart Jeff is
devoted to God and that is really important even if I disagree with them
does that make sense makes sense yeah sorry well I'll just I'll just add here
that um you know that you talk about that perceived divide and you know sometimes you hear so much like in in
the media or even online like never have we been so divided in the you know in politics and this and that Society in
reality I think never have we had such terrible tools of connecting like social media YouTube I mean we all use these
things but there are terrible ways of building that relationship and so I think one hope through the hello Saints
Summit and just the the content that Jeff produces and and all of us produce is we want to take these these
engagements offline to to these uh modern-day Wells right where people are just going through their day-to-day
activities knowing that we're different knowing that there's a perceived divide there and engaging there you know i'
I've often send Jeff you know links to different videos of maybe two Protestants talking about the latter
latterday saint faith tradition you know and it's so offensive to hear two people
tell me what I'm thinking or how I really see things when in reality I'm like you guys are so far off right and I
know Jeff experienced the same way seeing people latterday Saints who don't have a an Evangelical in the room try
and articulate what they're thinking and this is what they really mean and this is what their deep deep thoughts are it's like that is so toxic for uh our
our society for our relationship the more we can you know we can have these this content online to to learn and
start that understanding but we've got to take them offline to to real people who we can look in the eyes and say now
really what do you mean by this like why do you do that thing or this thing and and again we gain understanding we think
and you know I can't help but walk away from my engagements with Jeff and think he's he's a God-fearing individual who
loves Jesus Christ and I I want to associate more with those types of people yeah Jeff what are your thoughts
on on on the real the real divide right and then and learning that
first and then also the value of seeing each other as as as God-fearing
individuals I mean I just feel like we we uh we so often sabotage
ourselves and that's that's where I I've experienced more of the Divide so the
the demonization of one another where there are differences like we're talking about there's differences why does that equate to us
being unkind to each other why does that equate to us demonizing or or needing to tell someone talking from my perspective
that you're going to hell or that you need to get yourself right uh that that's
not we're getting in our own way there and I think that the
um if if when where we are able to and I know I might be speaking kind of
directly here but to me that's a maturity issue it really is what it kind of comes down to and and part of my
journey going from you know I released a video soon after I launched the channel you know former Mount mmer bashing Pastor or whatever it was and it's
because I was just so I was uninformed in so many ways about a grownup adult way to talk
about this stuff like part of this too that I'm appreciating is yes it's growing relationship yes it's becoming
more informed it's also maturing it's also like kind of growing up and and allowing Christ to perfect me as Kurt
was talking about to like gain that skill set when it comes to how we articulate what we believe and and and
understand how other people believe so I think that where we can get to a point where we're not demonizing one another
at that point things get super exciting like the sky is in limit at that point because then we can engage in the divide
and and I love what you're saying Greg that like it's not necessarily about closing the Divide okay because that that we're not trying
to compromise everything we believe till we just have nothing between us but a rubble of former doctrines what we can
maintain our convictions um which is really what the whole point of the Summit is I mean I
I've got um 20 speakers from Protestant and latterday Saint background speaking
on specific topics and I've G I gave every I gave all of
them instruction this is not you're not giving a comparative analysis here okay so latterday saying you're not going to
articulate the Evangelical view Evangelical you're not to to articulate the latterday sa view you are to
articulate your respective view so that if somebody's coming to the summit they can say now I am fully informed on this
topic from both a Latter-Day Saint and a Protestant Evangelical view
um I think if there's a prerequisite though for anybody attending the Summit is that we do have to put aside the
demonization of one another if you're willing to do that and then come to the summit I think that's where we open up a
lot of doors within your specific sphere of influence in your community as an individual to really have some exciting
engagement Kurt uh you know I I one thing that I see in response on both
sides there's kind of like a watershed when there's when there's someone coming out and trying to build Interfaith
relationships which by the way I certainly I think it's the same on the Evangelical side but on the latterday Saint side we're
not we're not we haven't built ourselves for that honestly I mean we're we're
we're a Missionary Church yeah right we are a Missionary church and so it's a totally different tool set you know and
skill set like you're talking about and I people don't have those tools necessarily and so it seems to be one of
two reactions is like wow this is great that I love seeing this I've got
Evangelical friends I've got Evangelical family members and and because I've had this when I've had uh uh you know shows
with Jeff and they'll they're like oh I sent this to all my family because half of us are Evangelical and half of us are
latterday Saints and this is so great and this is better than our dinner discussions you know and so you know you
get that kind of like this is wonderful but on the other side it's like what are you doing right I I I uh I mean and
honestly I know because I'm coming from a Latter-Day Saint perspective if I go through my comments I'm going to have a
lot of even angelical comments that you know they're not very nice and uh and so
I'm like okay but then I also get latterday Saint comments which which aren't very nice you know that that are
like what what are you doing what does this mean what what is uh you know is he
getting baptized you know it's like I don't know do you experience the same thing Kurt yeah you know it's you know
with our faith tradition it's beautiful that we've you know many of us have had this uh this experience where we've
spent two years roughly you know know being a full-time missionary and so it's easy for us to get into that gear a lot
of the latterday Saints I don't unless they have opportunity to serve on their State Communications Council or or some
of those inner Faith where it is a different gear and I almost wish you know in a perfect world we could spend two years doing the full-time missionary
thing and two years doing the the communications thing because they are very clear in in those roles like this
is not about baptisms it's not about telling them who's right and who's wrong this is about creating relationships and
so I think just naturally we're built in a in a missionary way because that's where that's what's been emphasized
that's that's where the dedication has been where you know we took two years of our life to to uh spend time there where
we haven't necessarily done that um and so I think it's just would benefit everybody to understand that there are
active formal efforts in the church led by priesthood Keys as we would frame it
that are simp that are not about baptisms it's about interner faith it's about you know Communications and building relationships your in your
community Jeff do you find that there is in that reaction because you're going to
experience the same thing on your end right from positive and negative from evangelicals positive and negative from
Latter-Day Saints I see it and I think on the negative side so much of it is two
things it is ignorance and it's fear right there's a fear that is saying
I can't step out there because I very very comfortable right here and and if
I'm stepping out that's not something I'm used to doing am I am I approving of
of the other side am I why am I you know even opening up communication right do you do you think
that are those is that right is it ignorance and fears or something else yeah I think I think for sure there's
there's uh there's ignorance and people not being fully informed and so they
well I heard one time that latterday Saints believe x y and z it's like hm believe uh or that was talked about
at some point 80 years ago big difference you know um Doctrine versus something that has kind of taken a
cultural grip within the latter Saint Community that's different um so yeah there so I don't I don't
totally um you know dog on evangelicals for being uninformed because there's two
things tied to that the the Latter-Day Saint Paradigm is for the most part out
of sight out of mind for us I mean when we're talking about 800 million Protestants in the world and
another billion or more Catholics like that's more what we're grappling with
and trying to reconcile and that's not to downplay the 17 million Latter-Day Saints but unless you're in an area
where there's a concentration of Latter-day Saints you're you only go by hearsay you only go by oh well I had a
pastor when I was a kid tell me this or you know a professor told me that um so
and then when you you add to it that there have been when you when you're dealing with ongoing Revelation there is a coming and a going
an EV and a flowing of certain emphases of certain focuses of certain um you
know even uh prominent teachings
so that's why yes there's ignorance um but then I think the fears
are really what motivates sort of the hostility in my opinion um and I I just
feel you know for me um I get I get more
threats from L Day Saints like you need to stop what you're doing or else type
of stuff but I get more um uh how would I put it
cancelling from my from My Tribe and uh one of the things that I
found helpful ignorance and fear to try to dispel all that is to really get into
that the the divide that space between evangelicals and latterday Saints and be
like let's just recontextualize this for a minute I actually went back and forth with one of my commenters an Evangelical
yesterday on this and he was basic so joy and I went to the Tabernacle did a tour went to a tabernacle choir
rehearsal and this Evangelical who I'd seen in my comments before said oh yeah
why not while you're at it why don't you just go walk around with some missionaries and help them share the Plan of
Salvation I'm like because I got together and and uh
listened to the hymns that are important to them and and peered into this Tabernacle Choir culture this
institution what what what what is what is so violating about that what are you what are we afraid of there what is so
offensive with that and then as soon as I recontextualized it and I said what if
I went to temple with the Jewish friend and they go the entire service basically talking about Yahweh
and all this other stuff but but denying that Jesus Christ is the Messiah you probably wouldn't have a hard time with
that and they're flat out denying Jesus as Messiah or if I went to a Catholic mass and the pope was there and I'm
singing Catholic hymns with them but absolutely disagreeing with the inspiration of the Liturgy in the
magisterium would you get upset with that and eventually this person was like yeah probably not I'm like so then why
would you get so offended because I'm I'm doing this L ofday Saints who
actually believe that Jesus is Messiah and have you know an openness to things
beyond that and thankfully this individual responded at the end and said
I understand where you're coming from thank you for explaining Pastor so I think it at the end of the day you know
what a lot of this comes back to is we just have to we have to be patient we have to continue to just patiently untangle this and sort through all this
and model how this conversation needs to happen so it's best for all of us Kurt what are the things that you
have learned the most in in working with Jeff and others from from other denominations in an Interfaith role yeah
you know I think the big thing is that there's really nothing to be afraid of with each other you know just the you I
the video that Jeff did where he took me to to three different churches you know on on one Sunday and just walking in
there like if I was by myself or I just decided to do that on a whim I'd be scared or I'd be like what are they
going to say or are they going to you know what if they find out I'm a lad or say but um so that's a big thing just
that uh once we get together like we Jive so well together you know and and
especially those moments where we're not even talking about faith or theology or any of that like we're we're so much
alike in those in those context um and I I again I just appreciate learning you
know I told Jeff this before there's a a pastor I think he's in Georgia named
Andy Stanley and pretty much every week I listen to his sermon on YouTube and
there's a lot of times I'm like oh man you know he's he's 80% there like if he only had the whole thing right and but
nonetheless I just appreciate how learning how they articulate uh gos the gospel how they
see Jesus how they interpret different stories and like I said a lot of times it's that it's still in line with
everything I believe and my you know my faith is made stronger but um and and it
really propels me back into my own tradition my own faith and like I said before my my latterday saint faith has
never been stronger than than now and and I'm just excited by it by by seeing
not only contrasts but seeing similarities in in our traditions and so it's it's worth the effort it's worth
leaning into Jeff uh you know one another thing I think is
really important for people to understand is that regardless of differences in Doctrine and then there's
some big differences right that we have our traditions and I suppose our
Doctrine on both sides uh when when we are following
those things on both sides they produce Val certain
values in people and and you can see that right I can see that in Protestants
I can see that in Latter-Day Saints there are certain Val values that are produced from from these Traditions that
are based in scripture right isn't that part of at least what can Bridge the
real Gap the real divide I mean yeah there's there's there's a sort of an
easily accessible application that just like we were talking about within our culture like if I I whenever I first move here um I
had a family member call up and they're like so you're living you're living in Utah now and you're with all the lday Saints are you
safe I'm like what do you mean am I safe like didn't move the well yes I'm
safe I'm very safe okay uh these are great people they're great neighbors um not only are they not hostile but
they they share some of our values a lot of our values in fact that was one of that that might have been the first
Domino that fell for me when I first started looking into lday St belief it's like culturally this just seems so
familiar to me even though it seems so alien so yeah those values that we
can uh coales around and be a value more broadly in society and culturally um it
would it would really make me um scratch my head where an evangelic would say no
no I'm I'll be involved in community stuff as long as Latter Day Saints are involved that's that's strange um we we
we overlap in so many different ways and I and and you add to it it does come from a similar Source it comes from what
we do see taught in the scriptures and what we do see emulated in Jesus um so
yeah I think that there's that but there's there's also like the value that it brings in my opinion and because I do
think that the cultural value is important I think it's
in the value that points us back to
ourselves too it's not just Society but even ourselves there's a a really uh
proficient I Evangelical Theologian and Scholar he just passed away last year his name is
Michael Heiser I'm a huge huge fan of his work and um he he's in a lot of he's
been in a lot of academic dialogues and he was contacted by someone who said hey I'm I'm in the academic
world um value wise ethics um Community
Family I align with 100% of where you align theologically I have some
differences in beliefs the stuff that you're teaching on and he's talking about the specific doctrinal uh position
that Michael Heiser has on the Divine Council and a few other things he goes I've actually been bringing this to my faith community and I'm taking a lot of
heat for it can I meet with you well he sits down with this individual and it turns out to be a professor from
BYU right so I don't know who it was and I think this was probably about 10 years
ago but as they're talking through all this the the byv professor was finally
like can I just ask you am I going to be in heaven with you and Heiser who had had very little
interaction with i saints up to this point he's like well everything has felt so familiar it seems so you know natural
there's a kinship here that just seems like just a natural connection he's like what I would like to do is just bypass
predicating that answer on what church we belong to and drive more at like
anybody who believes that they are saved not by their own Merit by Christ and Christ Alone
and believes that their spiritual reality before almighty God is the most
important consideration for them to have and that they look to Christ in that I
don't really necessarily care what label you put on yourself and and when I say that like if there are evangelicals
watching this I mean that's cancelable for me right for me to even say something like that because it's our job to tell people they're going to hell
evidently no but it's if we just pause for a minute and I'm not by the Baptists
I'm not saved by the method methodists I'm not saved by the Christian Missionary Alliance I'm saved by being
reconciled to almighty God through Christ and Christ alone and whether you say you're latterly say a Catholic or an
Evangelical to me that's it that's the ultimate value and Val that that I think
is drawn out of I know it's a very long-winded answer but I think about this quite often oh appreciate that uh last
question here for for each of you k Kurt where does this go from here right what
where can we see this going I mean maybe technology plays a larger and larger role in this I don't know but where
where does this go can there be uh
uh a a real view of how wide The Divide actually is and can there be strong
relationships between especially Christian denominations yeah man what a a great
question and I think it I'm not sure exactly where it goes but but you know I
think like I mentioned earlier that I just hope it goes offline into personal relationships with others that there may
be an individual out there who's maybe wrestling and praying over how do I connect with my community that it's full
of evangelicals as a Latter-Day Saint or vice versa and they'll have a platform a place that they can come and learn about
other experiences and and have the courage and Faith to lean into that so um you know of course I I think even the
our leaders at the highest levels of the church hope that inner Faith efforts
continue to flourish and um and we've seen example of example after that just
on that that more General level of the benefit of you know locking arms with
some of our other Christian brothers and sisters and regardless of what they believe or whether they're getting
baptized or not and it makes for a better a better world because as we all believe like Jesus Christ is the answer
like period and and if you need to go on a different path to get to the answer
then we'll have patience for that we we'll be open to that but I think the more we can turn the entire world
towards Jesus no matter what faith tradition it is or what we talk about on Sundays I think that is well worth the
effort and I think this effort is just a part of that larger effort of Turning People towards
Christ Jeff where does this go um I think there's a couple things
that you know if we're going to use the I'm sorry S I keep using Book of Mormon references here I'm not just I've been
been reading Le but the whole anti Lehi Nephi you know bearing the weapons right like can we can we stomach that can we
stomach bearing the weapons tough tough right um maybe not too deep Jeff I mean
we'll shallow gra but like we I think if
I may speak so boldly latterday Saint seem to continue down a path that I think they've been on of being less
insular I think that's something that's taken place over the past decades like it doesn't have to be like
I am Mormon you know we are we are the you know the the one church but there's there's a less insular and a more
outward postured view that also is looking to uh make Christ clearly predominant in
in all things and I think where evangelicals can put away their weapons
of but they need like but hell like we need to like make sure you know people
know if they're to hell or not I think I think if we can put that down if we can stop demonizing someone who disagrees
with us and just lovingly engage I I think I hope that's at least some of the
the upcoming steps that are taken as far as where does this ultimately
lead an ongoing conversation that Majors on the majors
and not on the minors and exalts Christ above all else that's where that's where I want to go and I think there's a lot
of other people that want to go there too so the Summit is going to be taking place in June of 2024 uh so June 11th
through June 20th it's 10 days uh each day of the Summit is going to have a
specific topic that will be spoken to both by a latterday saint and a Protestant Evangelical so we can get
that fully informed perspective on the topics you talked about and it is totally free so if you go to hellos
Saints summit.com you can fill in your uh information your email address and
you'll get free access to view these videos real quick I'm going to go over topics that are going to be covered here
what is heaven like the image of God what is truth family and marriage who is
Jesus faith in politics in America curiosity uh with innerfaith church
leadership faith and reason scripture how to study and grace and works which
will be a very good one got a couple of uh religion professors from BYU got both
of you involved David Butler Hannah Stoddard from Joseph Smith Foundation um
just a lot of really great voices in that space Jacob Hansen and in from the Evangelical standpoint me and my wife
Joy are going to do a couple presentations uh sha McDow who's a prominent uh Evangelical apologist Dell
tacket um Jordan Cooper who's a Lutheran YouTuber uh and a few pastors from Utah
so there's just there's a lot of really great voices that are going to be contributing to this and to clarify even the format of this Summit it's one topic
for T each day for 10 days and you'll hear a presentation a talk an interview
a conversation with a Latter-Day Saint on that topic and from an Evangelical on that topic um they will be separate so
you can just get that pure like this is the the belief and the position on it and it's just really fun because there
are some some of the side-by-side comparisons where you're like man there is a lot of differences here and there's
other you're like I didn't realize how much we align on a lot of these things so it's going to be true to Hell Saints
and true to this whole effort to become more to bring more voices at the table and it's going to just continue this
conversation of um being more informed within our respective Faith context and
I'm really excited because Kurt is actually going to be involved in um one of the uh the presentations I Kurt I
don't if you want to talk about how how we're handling that day yeah so I have the opportunity to sit down with a group
of of pastors and myself as a former Bishop uh we're going to talk leadership
we're going to talk about Dynamics they face and it's just I think there's so much we can learn from stepping out of
our tradition and seeing what the other guy does you know with these you know run running meetings or encouraging
Faith or helping people overcome pornography you know all these these typical things that church leaders face
sometimes we only talk with as as Bishop to Bishop but let's talk Bishop to pastor and it'll be awesome yeah and
then on that same day I'm going to be sitting with a group of Bishops so you have Kurt sitting with pastors you have me sitting with Bishops and it should be
a pretty uh great conversation that's just one example of the the type of perspectives we're hoping to bring to
the summit awesome well great Kurt and Jeff thanks so much for your time always
very fun uh we'll bring you both on soon thanks Greg thanks
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