Dinner With Millenials- LDS: Women, Work & Wear

millenials modesty women Aug 21, 2018

-If there was not a human 'spirit', just biology, could we have free agency?
-What determines free agency? Does evolutionary psychology explain our free will?
-Why is the individual so important?

Plop down a microphone in the middle of the dinner table. Politics, social issues, doctrine and current events. You're invited over for dinner. Take a seat and have a listen.


 Raw Transcript

what our family dinners like at your
house at my house I've always encouraged
lively debate and discussion even when
the kids were young we would talk about
their experiences put them into a larger
social context and see what those
experiences meant spiritually my goal
was always to make the kids think today
my kids are almost all adults so some of
the topics have changed and of course
their experience and insight have
changed too after all they're
Millennials and so our dinner
discussions now have the added benefit
of two different points of view from one
generation to another I had the idea of
slapping down a microphone in the middle
of the kitchen table to record some of
these dinner discussions so I'm inviting
you in to dinner take a seat and enjoy I
was just saying men are never told you
can't it's just so much easier for them
to accept the fact that they're never
told to be something well I mean I guess
men are always told I have to provide
for their family I mean I think that's
like huge sometimes that can be a huge
I don't know mark it's like when you
were growing up does it like kind of
stress you out like I've got to provide
this lifestyle that has never stressed
me I've never I wouldn't use the word
stress to describe the way I felt about
and it's like an entire store it's like
by the escalator yeah yeah it's a cool
story they had a Rick and Morty lava
lamp yeah I've been I bought this Harry
Potter pillow yeah I'm just saying I
think for some guys I think it's it can
be a little bit of an overwhelming thing
I mean it's just like we were talking
about how expensive it is to live right
so for a guy like knowing that you have
to to do all that I can be a stressful
thing so Monroe do you feel that in that
discussion in the classroom
boys have it better than I think they
have it better in the sense that every
single boy in there was completely okay
with the fact that they provide but you
or some of the girls might think yeah I
think almost all of them thought yeah
right what if I want a career well it's
a lot easier to feel like you're making
an impact on the world when you go out
on the world I go out in the world then
it is when you're at home cleaning up
poop but do you think that that's but do
you think that that's a result of our
society's stigmas because I don't feel
like I mean like it used to be a totally
expressed sentiment the hand that rocks
the cradle rules the world because right
I mean the most influence that you can
have on an upcoming on the world is by
shaping the future generations so I mean
that I don't even think they have you
ever even heard that no I mean I don't
think that I think some people may have
the opinion that moms get a bad rap but
I don't think that moms get that bad rap
they think a lot of people how these
moms get a bad rap I thought there's
very few people who are actively against
women staying at home like there are
people actively against women hat women
having to stay at home like not having
the option yeah I thought there are very
few people who are actually like I don't
think people say you know women
shouldn't stay home but I think they
make it seem like if you stay home
exactly you're you're not having this
big of an impact on the world or you're
not as you're not contributing as much
as somebody I think it is more that that
working towards what's contribution or
do you think it's more what you are
getting out of life I think as far as
the pressures go that that you know
voices that would say things to you what
is it more is it more you're not gonna
be able to contribute as much or is it
don't you want don't I think it's more
don't you want more for yourself not
something mom brought up last week to is
like well do you care more about the
kids would you care more by yourself
because if you cared more about the kids
they wouldn't be I mean I think
everything points to the fact that
having a parent at home is best but it's
just right
it's it's it's more just the expectation
the part of me that doesn't want to be
told what to do really
yeah cuz like even like with a boy even
if you're told you have to provide for
your family there are like millions of
ways you can do that and choose yeah you
can whatever with voice ambition is
encouraged and invested it with a woman
a lot of the times don't be too
ambitious is what they said okay but
what do you mean by ambitious they're
talking about ambitious for a career
yeah there's a lot of ways to be
ambitious I know a lot of ambitious
women that don't have careers okay I
like they are ambitious for their
families and they're ambitious with
their kids very competitive yeah sigelei
you're talking about careers yeah yeah
yeah so I guess how do you what's a good
way to integrate the two because I feel
like it's like I was saying to my class
I don't think that there's a black and
white to the issue I think there's a lot
of gray area in between and as far as
education goes I feel like there's very
few things that you gotta take with you
in this life I'm one of them
you know we know we get to take with us
our knowledge so I feel like the church
is really you know pro education
especially for what I agree with them so
yeah we want to to gain knowledge
so that being said do I think that you
can do I think you can be a therapist
and a mom yes do I think that you can be
an author and a mom yes do I think you
can you know do both yes but something
does have to give a little right but how
do we then find that a spot or what's
the correct way to talk to girls and
young women where they don't feel
oppressed like they don't feel like okay
well yeah you're gonna be a mom and all
the boys gonna do whatever they want
like how do we what's an appropriate way
because I also feel like everyone at
this table has a testimony of the gospel
of Jesus Christ and we do know that the
doctrine of the church is the doctrine
of the family and that we are sent to
earth in a family that we live in
families that we came to earth to create
a family and that the basic unit in
heaven is the family and I feel like of
all the titles that we could use we call
Heavenly Father father we know that in
heaven he's not an attorney or a dentist
or an engineer he's acting in his role
as a father so we know that we came to
earth to learn to be parents and so how
do we uphold the ideal principle and yet
not make girls and young women in this
generation feel like obviously I'm your
mom and I love you guys and I want
what's best for you but I also want you
to know you know
I don't know what's what's the best way
to discuss it and and so that girls
don't feel like that I feel like even in
today's lesson it's it's just painted as
impossible like to happen both of career
that you feel satisfied in and to be
virtually impossible yeah I think I
don't know exactly what the perfect
solution is to this whole problem but I
just don't want to be told that to have
a career and to be a successful home is
impossible wait I want to add one thing
mm-hmm you said that heavenly father's
not an attorney or a dentist or a
engineer but I kind of disagree
he's a creator he works with the laws of
the papers well if that knowledge is
important understanding those things is
important right but right now he is
acting as a creator yes and so yeah all
of that's what I'm saying knowledge is
important and so yeah he brought that
knowledge with him but he is really
acting as a parent with that knowledge I
think the best way to talk about it is
not like why do we have to have
discussions on like and the family is
one thing but why do there have to be
Turk topics on your career like why does
that need to be because what do you
think that because that's obviously
gonna be a part of your reality as an
adult oh right I mean it's up here if
you're especially you know we're talking
about a youth lesson like today do you
talk do not talk about motherhood I'm
not saying don't talk about motherhood
I'm saying why do we have to always why
don't have to keep talking about the
problem with motherhood in careers does
it the problem you don't think you
should be discussed
I don't know like why did that why does
there have to be a lesson in church
about motherhood force versus careers
why can't we talk about motherhood and
how important it is and talk about
knowledge and how important it is like
why does there have to be that
discussion also for a lot of people it's
just not a choice like a lot of every
single person that we know all of our
friends that are couples and like every
single one of our friends has kids now -
the wife has to work they would not be
able to make ends meet without the wife
working so it's like and then it brings
on the guilt thing like okay well if I
don't work we won't be able to pay our
bills but if I do work I know that I'm
happy to give up that thing I learned
about in my own homes lesson I'm happy
my Kate is now hurting because I have to
work right so it is a problem yes I
don't know I'm not a mom so I haven't
had that experience so I don't I guess I
don't know if it is a problem but I feel
like maybe talking about it perpetuates
it it's like like with the body issues
for girls like I feel like the best way
to stop talking about like to stop
having body issues is to stop talking
about body issues like talk about like
oh your this is how you keep your body
healthy I'm not saying don't talk about
that but instead of talking to girls
about like the negative aspects of their
bodies or how their body is just a
sexual object and boys are all gonna
look at your body the central sexual
just stop talking like that and then
that won't be a thing
you mean like why do you have to talk
about that
I feel like talking about it
makes it a thing but outside of church
obviously is a thing and if you don't
talk about how having a career is I am
guilty you won't feel good it's about
girl Europe which I understand I mean I
understand you don't want to choose
people like guilt trip I know you don't
you don't the time but I do think that
that's what it comes down to if it was
what you're saying yes it's a guilt
issue that isn't anything it's like okay
if you're gonna talk about this and
bring this up then you're gonna make me
feel guilty
yeah but I think unnecessarily
unnecessarily yeah I get that guilt can
be a positive thing but it's a lot
different for girls than it is for like
guilt is like a huge yes part of dry and
Nike and and all women I think it's a
huge part of our psyche and for the most
part it's negative oh absolutely and so
so yeah other than anything I mean it
causes guilt that's not good
do you guys remember having a lesson
like the chew gum oh I had that no
YouTube the boys the boys have you ever
had a lesson anything remotely close
yeah I agree you good employee I agree
I'm not saying that it's not and the
reason we get hammer I would say even
so the reason we get a harsh treatment
all the times is because we don't feel
as much guilt maybe right so we get
taught that way a little bit more maybe
because we're not it's not as automatic
I don't feel guilty is automatic about
something yeah it's maybe it's my first
go-to I feel guilty about literally
everything do you think that so we in
the church then where you're you are
given moral instruction do you think
that that is used well I rephrase the
question guilt you into doing I think if
it's used to kill to it's awful I mean
like the chewing gum thing but I was I
think most of that is by women I've
never felt so that I mean brought the
young leaders they know because they
know it'll work
but you weren't given that lesson were
you I never other chewing gum listen I
got the tape lesson but that was
actually at school I Greenfield junior
high they took two pieces of tape and
stuck them together and said every time
you have sex with someone it's like
sticking her tape and then you become
less sticky because I feel like both of
you have had exceptionally good moments
but I do think that even with
exceptionally good leaders I definitely
heard on multiple occasions the modesty
thing and how yes I am partially
responsible for how young men think and
how I think that comes from the young I
don't remember I have no idea but I
definitely remember thinking okay if I
were these short shorts I might be a
little bit edgy because I might I might
be making boys think
things even though I don't think my
files are really that attractive but
sooner teachers for sure yeah I was
gonna say I like that - they're all in
that whole seminary yeah well you know
again I mean it's a lot easier to cuz I
kind of feel like - in our home I feel
like I don't think we kind of for either
of you guilty about your bodies no I
don't think so at all I don't think so I
don't think so
you mean my dressing modestly yeah no I
don't I don't think so at all like not
even a little bit yeah I know which is
part of why we're not judgmental towards
other people in general it's just the
way that we were raised is not typical
especially in Chandler Gilbert Arizona
within the Mormon community it's like
when I was driving in the car that time
when I had all my maids in the car and I
said and they were talking about
somebody you were there and he was
saying how what they were wearing and I
said do you think it's worse to talk
about somebody wearing short shorts or
to wear short shorts and they like had
no idea what the answer was and I said
if you don't know what the answer is
that's a problem before because it's
much it's much worse to be talking about
somebody and alienating them about what
they're wearing rather than their
wearing shorts so yeah I think that's
the easiest way to teach right it's just
kind of water runs downhill and it's
easier anything that you can measure
easily you can you can you can it's
easier to teach toward that it's not
better to teach toward them but it's
easier to I mean just having a standard
of like black and white where
everything's out there you know I mean
if you're talking about how far down the
on the shoulder your shirt needs to be
that's an easy thing to teach right it
needs to be down this lower you know
this is to lower it's too high or as the
concept of modesty the principle of
modesty really is what ought to be
taught you know it's it's what what's
behind that what's the meaning of that
and what is modesty really mean how is
it a strength and how does it and
there's a lot of ways to be immodest you
know you can be very flamboyant well
yeah very out there with your ritzy car
or you know the way you're dressed as
far as watching lots of jewelry
everywhere and yeah well that's not
modest but like do you feel like you've
ever ever had a lesson like have you
ever had a lesson on modesty in church
I've had a mozzie listen every year many
time every more than one and it just it
gives more leeway for boys just I don't
know about that I think so yeah wait for
what to not be responsible you mean yeah
responsible for their own thoughts yeah
no I don't I don't think it I I think it
has very little impact on voice and a
tremendous impact I disagree I like I
don't think they tell boys
hey it's partially the girls fault if
you think naughty thoughts about her
because she's wearing skimpy dress I
think that's quite a stretch I think
they tell pearl fat and I think that
girl the bully of that I don't think
that that boy felt like oh well if I
think bad thoughts about her it's okay
because it's her fault you know I mean
girls are told that but I don't think
the boys think that at all I know Marcus
yeah I don't I don't think boy leader
think about that coming you know they
don't think like oh it's her fault
oh no they don't think that at all what
but that doesn't mean that they don't
judge her and maybe not want to hang out
no that's not what I'm saying I'm saying
that doesn't mean that they don't have
bad thoughts Yeah right because he sees
a girls five I know I know but you're
saying it from the see the guy saw a
girl and shorts
tote I mean 15 year old teacher a 15
year old teacher like a woman in an
immodest dress
he doesn't think oh that's not my fault
that I'm thinking like that he does you
think he thinks it's not his fault
no he thinks it is his fault yeah I
think that's it I do too he doesn't
think for
that is her fault wearing something your
mom's I don't think thinks about fault I
mean the boys half the guilt being as
much at all I think they're thinking
wrong I don't think the fault didn't
even know across those their minds I
don't either
patriarchy I do think that the guilt
thing is a problem for girls but that's
what I'm saying how can we address
things and teach correct principles you
just teach the correct principles like
record is important here's my motherhood
is so great further your education is
important your drive further and your
education is so great oh look you can
use education as a mother right but
that's still not addressing the elephant
in the room which is just like Munro
said well guys can pursue whatever
career they want and the girls are just
sitting there and thinking okay yeah
motherhood's great and I can use my
education as a mom but what if I want to
be something else but I feel like that's
not the church's place to make any debt
it's a personal individual decision and
different couples and families will have
completely different things that work
for them so you teach them correct
principles and they govern themselves
you talk about what's important in your
family it's important to have an
influence on your kid it's important to
be there for your kid but it's also
important for you to further your
education it's important for you to be a
contributing member of society and then
when you're at the point where you're
like and and your kids are the most
important thing and then you're at a
point where you're like okay I could
take this really great job but I will
barely be able to see my kids but I know
motherhood is the most important thing
so maybe all not or for some people
maybe it's we really need this money
right now and that's the best thing I
could do for my kid is be able to make
sure that you know we have
but we need but do you think that then
so you're saying in your in young
woman's now you you're saying that it do
you are the young women leaders usually
telling you that you need to be as I
never had that ever I'm I don't even
think we really so when you say what do
you mean why talk about it I guess I
just mean why you need to talk about
careers and motherhood as being like a
mutually exclusive thing like why do we
even need to go there I just feel like
it's an issue that women and girls are
gonna face and I just feel like there's
more pressure on women now than ever I
do feel like every I do feel like we're
getting farther and farther away from
girls seeing themselves as being a
moment but it's hard for me to deny that
I mean it's very clear in the
proclamation that it is primarily the
moms duty to raise and rear the children
unless there are other circumstances
that arise and I that's what I'm saying
I don't think it's a black and white
thing like women can never work but I do
think that it it is that is the best and
I just want to be able to express that
where girls feel like okay yeah that is
the best scenario without also offending
them like sure you might want to be a
they're like you know like I don't wanna
well I think you teach it as like being
you talk about why being a mom for you
is so great and how it's been such a
blessing and you talk about how you do
what's best for your family no matter
what and for each family that means some
different and if you you know have a
close relationship with the Lord and you
make sure he's part of your decisions
then you're gonna make the right
decision for yourself because that's the
other do you cheat do you teach the
family proclamation of course yeah but I
feel like even in the prevailing
Proclamation the kind it says that to us
there's disclaimers like if there's
something that comes up like well it's
not it doesn't say I didn't even say the
word stay-at-home mom so I think it says
your primary but it's not taught in like
a positive way it's not in a positive
I mean we're never I've never felt like
they're trying to get me excited to be a
mom they're selling me how to do it
really like I obviously think that
motherhood is and once I become another
it'll be part of who I am and mostly who
I am and it'll change me but I think
that doesn't just sound like it's just
like some self-sacrificing yeah most RP
doing just like this is the hardest
thing you'll ever do when you're making
such a dedication and it's basically
everywhere but I'm just felt like I'm
going to be put in prison wonderful
maybe that's my fault you guys a prime
motivator sounds like what's that mom
likes being wrong yeah I will say that
you know when you started junior high I
did start working so maybe that's how
I was still home Oh every day cinnamon
toast yep
I still got some rice with milk and
cinnamon I know so it's interesting
because when you look back on your own
life would you have rather gone to kids
care at mesquite Elementary or would you
have rather come home city kids care
look pretty fun to be I think very
important kids really know I think I
don't know I feel like we both wanted at
least mostly be a stay-at-home mom right
I want to be a stay-at-home mom I've
always wanted yes they don't mom I've
also always wanted a career that won't
stop me from doing yeah me too hey if I
could stop working tomorrow I would I
would put dinner I look wonderful
dinners every day there's our house
would be smallest come on you're
watching okay married remember I make
dinner every school night we have like
ground beef every time it's the same
every time
it's get it ground beef applause you're
good it's very telling we get the tray
go ragu yeah pretty good all right yeah
it's pasta sauce and then rotini Chef
you know Jeff is too low


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