Cwic Show- Young LDS Apologist, Kwaku El

-  Ideas on defending the LDS Church and its doctrine
-  There is a large, ignored gap between LDS scholarship and the 'garden-variety' member of the church.
-  How is LDS scholarship doing?
-  Orthodox and Progressive Latter-Day-Saints
-  What's going on at BYU?
-  We need a more confident way to promote faith
-  What struggles do Generation Z and Millennials have with the church?
- The role of common sense in church apologetics

 

Website-  https://www.cwicmedia.com 

Podcast Links:

Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cwic-media/id1428167000

Spotify:  https://open.spotify.com/show/3BNjs4EJqo0iK4LURdTPDb 

 

 

 LDS Mormon

 

that's now an expectation that's put on

latter-day saints if at some point the

sacks become so much it's everyone's

telling me I'm wrong the culture isn't

on my side what do I do here I need some

answers

so you've decided to kind of put

yourself out there as a an LDS apologist

right and so I've gone and I've looked

and I've seen that you've got a number

of debates online you've got a YouTube

channel that you've put out there and

you've taken a very specific and

conscious effort to go out and defend

the church and to vent defend the

gospel defend the church history and

obviously there's a lot of information

out there on the Internet ninety ninety

five ninety eight percent of it is

negative ran and so we're kind of

drowning in this this information

that is very adversarial to the church

and to church members what made you

decide to go out and start to you

know put yourself out there and put this

message of defending the church out

there so - quite honestly I it wasn't

ever a conscious effort of this is the

thing I'm going to do I am I started

doing church media stuff a couple years

ago I got put on a talk show right

before freshman year at BYU called three

Mormons

and it was completely when a cultural

talk show writing well let into that how

did that start they called me in just

for an audition they just wanted some

goofy young kids to talk about and you

fit the bill

ya know you go watch those first

episodes I what I really did look talk

about classic Utah Valley Gilbert

Arizona Boise kind of things right just

the normal culture there weren't they I

think the only two running Mormon

related shows were the Mormon stories

the pretty anti-church podcast

mm-hmm and then us that was it

so you had a somewhat seasoned

journalist who is um and a psychologist

who was who's essentially trying to take

down the church and then the other

opposing side you had a couple freshman

at beware

you okay racket so we David and Goliath

right we had I mean we were pushed

into the position to become a church

defense and that was that was never what

we wanted to do and so people who was it

that invited you to do this so that was

it was the Morgan foundation so they

they do a number of great church

projects they do a lot of really good

stuff and they do a lot of things in

Portuguese in Spanish as well to help to

help members and then you know those

areas and so we were just doing normal

funny stuff and then people would ask us

these questions about church history and

about doctrine and so we had to start

learning how to defend that that ended

up getting a lot bigger than any one of

us had anticipated and so I started

realizing just how serious it was just

how online we had so much negativity

and I kind of knew that when I was

converting so I converted summer of 2014

and I would Google Joseph Smith or just

type into YouTube Joseph Smith or Mormon

belief or anything like that and it was

almost always negative I couldn't find

anything on my algorithm on Google would

not give me anything on Joseph Smith

believe it or not besides and no man

knows my history by Fon Brody that was

it I mean it was I couldn't find

anything so I figured at least I'll be

able to help people who were in my

position who will be swayed to

negative things easier so I am I started

I started doing my own channel just

talking about gospel topics and

doing some defense of the church and the

two biggest criticisms I got from groups

were evangelicals and atheists and to me

it coming from a Protestant background

before I joined the church I felt they

need to answer the evangelical

criticisms first

and then the you know the atheistic

criticism second

well what would what would some of the

evangelical criticisms be oh you know

the classic you know uh no angels that

should never come if it's different than

me and no don't add on to the words of

this book and you know the kind of the

classic ones that are pretty easy to him

but then you'd get more the more of

these pastors and scholars would start

reaching out to me which I felt I knew I

was doing a III took it as a sign is a

good job when you know it's a

pastors who have their own shows who

were like hey we need to talk about this

guy I never thought I was a threat but

you know in a BYU dorm of making videos

and I have pastors with entire

congregations of hundreds and hundreds

of people and audiences of thousands who

were needing to cut to you know sort of

uh put out rebuttals which um I I still

find it the scholarship world to be both

very interesting and slightly annoying

um so let's pause for a second there go

into that a little bit because I

feelings on that well he had the

culture of just the Christian religious

scholarship world in general annoys me

um and one of it one of the reasons is

the level of ego in that world is

higher than athletes and I know this

being from Texas where we have Texas

football which is more impressive than

most states college football leagues

right I would put I would make a video

about something and a guy would write

some article in his blog spot which is

okay it's a blog spot whatever in and

they would they get their audience they

prop it up as if it's the most important

thing ever and they would use terms like

Mormon apologist Kwaku El has been

thoroughly refuted on his uh his

horrible bastardization of Sola

scriptura I'm like what and I'd read it

like this just seems to be why you

disagree with me but this doesn't seem

to be any sort of you know

you know legal destruction of anything

I've said it just people really

love what they have to say and they

think that in in the religious world if

they have come up with an idea or they

think they disagree with you and

they've written down that then means

that objectively you are wrong because

they disagreed and it is it's almost the

kind of egoism that makes my generation

generation Z oh yeah religious people

that I can see where they get that idea

or it's just it's a it's a they've

bought into I think in some way you have

to buy into media savvy but they bought

into media culture so much it's

unbearable one exhibit what do you what

do you mean by that

oh yeah well one example of that is um

there's a there's a

evangelical musician who worship singer

named Lauren Daigle very talented great

music everyone loved her she

wrote these songs and they just the

entire Christian world just gave her

applause she went on Ellen DeGeneres i

believe and Ellen asked her a

question about gay marriage and asked

you know what do you think about it and

Lauren just said III need to something

like I need to open the bible and

look into it for myself so a very you

know kind of answer to you know appease

the masses better a very vanilla answer

and you know she didn't obviously give

this the standard classic reformed

Christian answer she did not give that

answer but i always say

she's a young girl who's on the top talk

show of all time hosted by a lesbian

asked about gay marriage yeah she dodged

the question a little bit but then what

everyone did was they just started

wrecking this poor girl online you had

these pastors and these scholars

saying Lauren Daigle succumbs to the

devil and she is no longer a good

Christian your children aren't safe

they're just these over-the-top terrible

things say about this girl but because

they knew they'd get the clicks right

they knew they would get the clicks they

knew they'd get the views and I was

gonna say that seems like something you

you seem to bring out the not you

personally but when you're online and in

social media it just seems like you're

going to bring out the extremes on both

sides it's kind of like getting into any

political discussion online it doesn't

really work real well right you're gonna

you're gonna bring the extremists from

both sides that are completely closed

off right you any kind of real

conversation right it's a purely

attack and just like secular media that

the extreme people who are the loudest

and dominate the conversation and anyone

who is in the middle sometimes has to

cater to that so a good example is you

know we saw this very well in the 2016

election right you have you had you had

a Sanders yet a Trump you had two very

vocal very different people than the

parties have ever seen before and you've

had a lot of Lindsey Graham types in the

middle who then had all right okay

everyone's going this way I guess I kind

of have to see you have a lot of the

normal Christians who were in the middle

who then were sort of dragged to the

extreme of you know just sort of

denigrating uh essentially a pop singer

who's like 20 um because she didn't say

to Ellen's face no I disagree with your

lifestyle right I so I see just the

the exact same kind of media

mentality in the Christian religious

world that I find just to be

insufferable and then the scholarship

world I find that sometimes the ego in

that world to be just so much or I find

it to be very hyped up so you have

you have if someone will write an essay

and a PDF and put it online and it's 60

pages and I've had people do this with

some of my videos they will essentially

write um

book and they'll send it to me and

they'll be like let's see if you respond

to this

it's like quite frankly no I'm not gonna

read your book on my video I've got I

I've got a lot of things to do so just

the nature of the way scholarship

the online scholarship world engages is

something that I write just is so

annoying and that's a bit of

my beef with it but almost forgot we

were going before that little tangent

there um I don't know that's fine I

that's important

information there I like I said I share

a lot of that I have to some degree I I

have an immense amount here's what I

kind of think about for example LDS

scholarship right now is LDS scholarship

is in one way in an incredible place

really it's opened up to the point

where you've brought in people from

different backgrounds they've had

different places of it you know where

they've gone and gotten their PhDs they

bring that background in that discipline

back into the oldest scholarship pool

and it's really opened up a lot of

things and in some of the up-and-coming

younger LDS scholars I think are amazing

you know at the same time I think that

there are there's another side of that

too and it kind of worries me a little

bit where you have it's that same

idea that you have you have everybody

that's kind of the same I don't know

that the same thought process and

and the same political side maybe and

the same participation in a broader high

education very high elitist education

background and I don't know that that is

always gonna play real well in LDS

scholarship you know I see people you

know again it's some great up-and-coming

scholars you can see them on Maxwell

Institute etc you've written great books

I love the books

but they're all kind of to me they kind

of I can just see this parallelism that

is part of that world you're talking

about to some degree or another

oh no no there is a I'm gonna be very

careful with what I say because yeah I

do too yeah I there's a lot of LDS

scholarship that I always recommend you

know Book of Mormon central fair Mormon

interpreter foundation even uh some of

the beauty professors like Scott

Woodward Hank Smith Martin Matthews

Anthony sweat but what I will say is

an unfortunate reality going on right

here at BYU and I feel like I can talk

about it because it's exploding online

it's kind of it's becoming an

unavoidable conversation here there is a

there there's what I call Orthodox they

work the docs view the restored gospel

and then the sort of the progressive

view of the restored gospel and I'm very

much in the Orthodox category I very

much you know I believe in sustained

with the Brethren say and I believe in

the core doctrine I sustain the core

doctrine and I don't I don't waiver on

it

I don't um I don't really say well you

know this might be somewhat

controversial or hard to grasp so I'm

going to put on the back burner or say I

disagree so you know a family

proclamation I sustain it right the

things that are that are sort of getting

the axe online by unfortunately um some

members and right here in Provo we

have I didn't actually coin the term the

term the coin was termed by a number of

other people people are using terms like

the BYU apostasy and the apostasy on 800

North right because there are some folks

who are very much connected with the

Maxwell Institute who have espoused some

pretty terrible things online in in

in the same field of LDS academia you

have amazing things coming from

Book of Mormon Central and interpreter

and these people who are you know

they're putting out stuff that

is groundbreaking and more people need

to read it and then on the other hand

though you've got people who are in who

are so in sort of these esteemed

positions who that sure you know

people have looked at for years and

Maxwell and going okay great what do you

have and you have sort of hey we think

that we think the church is wrong about

eternal marriage right and do

you think do you see that actually

vocalized oh I'm seeing that vocalize

outside of Twitter I I see it I don't

see it vocalized in church as much I see

you know III you'll see um I'll have

friends tell me I was second reading

something weird happened in Fast and

testimony meeting they didn't quite say

it but they were alluding to it and yeah

you're seeing it become more and more of

a theme and you're finding the

bridge between people who are who are

anti Church who have left the church or

who are very vehemently opposed to the

gospel and the gospel standards and the

gospel culture and those who are members

who getting closer and not closer in

terms of friendship but closer in terms

of ideology and that to me seems a

bit a bit scary so yeah you see it on

Twitter obviously but I'm seeing it um

I'm seeing it take off in a lot other

places in class and be with you

classrooms I'm finding more that

narrative being a pushed um sometimes by

the students and then vary a little bit

by the faculty some

professors and I think we saw a pretty

good example of it this past winter

semester here at BYU the giant protests

that were going on almost may be unlike

anything people have seen in be with you

history I was there at the I wasn't in

the protest protesting but I was getting

out of class and I saw it and it only

took a couple days for them to go just

be protesting at the actual Church in

Salt Lake City

I thought a little more honest honestly

it's the end goal so I said you

know what in a good way that's good it's

it's more just what it what is the

end goal the end goal of that group as

far as it looks to me you know I'm not

going to speak on behalf of them but

ours looks to me is to change the

doctrine of the church in regard to

marriage and sealing and it and so

because of that I mean it it's it that

would fundamentally change the nature of

exaltation right and all those

things that we'd be a different religion

you know what I mean our whole our

everything would change and so at I'm

seeing a lot more of that and that's

one of the reasons believe it or not I

was I've been able to build an audience

so quickly and still a pretty so small

channel but still I've been able to get

some traction and I've said to a

lot of a lot of my friends I I'm not the

guy anyone should be watching I'm I I'm

not the guy I don't have a degree in

ancient Near Eastern Studies or theology

or anything I'm my training you know how

much that matters

well I thought yesterday I used to think

this you know you those are the only

people you watch I did sketch comedy be

like you and I do events in the valley

that's my job I run an event company

I've always thought I'm never the guy

someone should watch as still a guy

who's about to finish his undergrad and

then who knows what after but people a

lot of people feel so annoyed with the

place of scholarship right now people

who have been um and I think the maximum

students wonderful I think you know

Spencer Flumen those guys are wonderful

I do dad and I want to say I need to say

also I say that did I agree with that

yeah there's a lot that comes out of

there that is fabulous yes but not

necessarily everything exactly the some

of the things that people are upset

about and they know the things people

are upset about people made it very

clear to them right I'm sure they get

all the emails that have to do

that's someone who's on the receiving

end of criticism a lot yeah it's not a

fun thing but there are people who

have vocalized that they don't like that

the position of that of that church

attention or the almost the

influence that they have and they

look on Church media and they found me

and they go oh we like what you do we

feel like you're given the message more

and I've always said you know if

church apologetics is ever in a place

where the guy from Divine Comedy is seen

as hey he's a really good apologist go

look at him instead of such-and-such

that probably means we're not in in

the most stellar place which is why

that's true at the same time I think

it's refreshing I really do I think it's

and which is why I've got you on here

right because you do have some traction

and there are very few voices that are

relevant at all to young adults that

that can you know come through with that

kind of a message there just because you

know there's only there's only a very

small minority like maybe you and I even

at my age that are going to dig deep

into LDS scholarship and doctrine and

and read and listen to things that most

people are gonna fall asleep to in the

first minute or two and so to have a way

of transmitting that and broadcasting

that message to people I think is really

important and I think it honestly I

think it's very refreshing I think it's

great oh well good no I appreciate that

I think that well that seems to be

sort of a reason why I've been gaining

some traction is people want good

apologetics they want a good defense but

they don't want to download a PDF and

read you know as some dissertation they

once say what something easier and

something more exciting and something

that seems to just answer the questions

faster and they also want something more

confident a lot of times in this it's

good that scholars do this scholars what

they'll do is they don't give a lot

of matter-of-fact answers but they'll

say what seems to be a very strong case

for such and such and that that that's

how it should be that's how scholarship

should be but what you have people who

have either you know the

evangelicals who do seem to be very anti

Mormon or you just have people who or

who are just a theistic in their

approach

they don't use a matter of fact though

they are a matter of fact they don't say

probably they say this is what happened

very dogmatic the issue is you've got

then the very nice intelligent

scholars who were trying to be as

professional as possible by not using

matter-of-fact dogmatic language and

then you have those who are opposed who

are using the this is the way it is

language the problem with that is I mean

psychologically one looks weaker one

looks stronger oftentimes and so you

kind of need the middle man the middle

ground people the people who will make

jokes who will say what they want

will get on YouTube and say no this is

what's true this is what I believe

here's why I think the atheists are

wrong here and you know what let's make

a joke about it and I think that

approach helps to normalize the really

important stuff that these guys are

doing at interpreter and fair and in

Maxwell and so that's kind of the I

never really knew where I was going with

YouTube or where it would end up but

that seems to be sort of a place I feel

comfortable in you know I read a lot of

LDS scholarship a lot of things to

defend the Book of Mormon and the

Prophet Joseph and to me what works the

best is take the good information that's

there and put it out and make it more

simple and make it entertaining and then

once you once you do that people can

find you as a resource that they say

alright this makes sense and then it's

easier to talk about

some of the more complex or deep parts

of our beliefs yeah there was a I'm

trying to think I think it was last

August and I can't remember if it was

fair Mormon or if it was Nashville

Institute it may have been fair Mormon

but it was it was Elder Holland spoke

there actually and he came out and he

said and I thought it was Maxwell

Institute but he said I think was the

Book of Mormon central was a book of

Mormon central yeah at BYU okay yeah he

said basically what we need to do the

gap you know obviously I'm paraphrasing

here but there's a gap and we need to

get scholarly information to the he

called it the garden-variety member and

and that's a very difficult thing to do

right there's got to be a way of because

like you know again people aren't going

to download a 60 page PDF most people

aren't and go through that and

then and then have them you know use

that information to strengthen their

position and to buoy up their testimony

so to speak at the same time they're

going to get bombarded with this

information and other people that read

those types of things that are

adversarial and so this attack keeps

- continues to move forward against the

members of the church and the church and

you know there's got to be a way to arm

people better there's got to be a way to

get the garden-variety member which is

one of the objectives that I have with

with my channel and website and

everything that I'm doing is you know

arm them more with information and

faith promoting sometimes a matter of

fact sometimes just information you know

that that they can that they can use and

strengthen their testimony and defend

themselves if necessary there's not a

lot of it out there there's either it's

either because here's the thing someone

like Maxwell Institute and you go out

and you have somebody try and read for

example well who I think is it's just a

fabulous scholar someone like Joseph

Spencer right right it's not everybody's

gonna want to read that

I do you know but not everybody is gonna

want to read that and so you've got to

have a way of someone's got to take that

information and be able to get it

out to people in a way that they're

going to receive it right right there

seems to be a big gap there and you

know I I don't say this to I'm not I

don't say this to Pat myself on the back

but there's very few people in YouTube

doing that right there's very few people

doing that and YouTube's doing the top

websites right this is where people go

this is where people's testimonies have

been built and destroyed right so you'll

get a lot of that though quick whose is

it's like you said people don't want to

put themselves out there because they

don't want to get the backlash right

right someone may feel like oh I really

like to do this and express this but

number one it's a little uncomfortable

for most people to put themselves out

there for in any situation right number

two you get hit once or twice with

something negative which is certainly

happened with me it's not the

funnest thing in the world oh yeah yeah

you I mean I've been I've been slammed

like crazy I say my family the

El’s my family we have a natural

confidence we don't deserve it's in our

genetics we're just all very confident

and I kind of I I'm happy I sort of

have that because um my goal with my

channel is not to do this forever my

goal has been I want to kick down the

door of a stronger latter-day saint

presence on YouTube I want people to

search things I don't want the anti

stuff to come up first I want our stuff

to be there as a response to anything

anyone is saying because when I was

converting it wasn't there there were

two shows there were two is sort of not

Church produced independent shows it was

asked Mormon girl and that Mormon boy

neither

or running anymore the Assam woman girl

had maybe five six videos and stopped

that Mormon boy deleted his channel and

then it was nothing and then you know

now more things are starting if three

Mormons started and a couple different

channels started and now there's

there's more of a presence and the

people there need to grow their channels

need to get bigger and then they need

then they need to be a defense they

should be a force that is what the

Catholics have and do very well what

evangelicals do never what atheists do

very very well

we need that the area there because the

reality is that a lot of these a lot of

the anti information is it isn't just

inaccurate it's logically

ridiculous and a lot of times when

people feel they feel caught off guard

or they feel as if their faith is being

hit hard because they're in a they're in

a position where they're on the

defensive only in all ways and no one

else is defending and then people look

around they're going well maybe this is

really just false and so what I

seek to do is create a culture

in which other channels as well as mine

can become bigger and can be then sort

of a not just defense but a cultural

online in which people can say oh yeah

that's the latter-day saint

that's what they do and they're gonna

have answers so you can look at any of

these people they'll give you answers to

the criticisms and we're not quite there

yet but we need to be there before I can

feel I can feel comfortable sort of

going alright okay I did my job now

I'm gonna I'm going to leave cause I'm

not really in the I'm not I don't want

to be sort of in an Alf Fox type who you

know it's just really a public figure

for the church you just you know it's

good faithful

and that that's what she did direct the

books you're talking about the tattooed

girl yeah yeah yes you know she's great

I've never really wanted to be sort of

that type or a or even a Hank Smith

right never really interested me I love

what data is that BYU professor yes it

was also an author he does a lot of

speaking tours I mean incredibly

talented people babies their blessings

to the church never really been

something I wanted to do I'm just doing

this because I honestly feel called to

do it and I feel like it's important for

me to do it right now and you know III

sort of use sort of some techniques that

I think work well so to give an example

is um one of the criticism that get in

the Book of Mormon quite a bit and it's

the you know Book of Mormon isn't true

because the weaponry and the

buildings described in the Book of

Mormon were not present in ancient

America right you know that's when you

hear quite a bit that's a comment I get

all the time and one of the arguments

I've used in the III you know I've gone

to the Guatemala the lidar discovery

I've done all the real good

scholarship stuff where they say look at

this look at this people go wow wow

that's really good I didn't know about

that and I'll direct them to the sources

the one that's worked best

is honestly when I just when I'm

off-the-cuff and I say and it doesn't

yeah I don't really mean to make it into

the editing is something like you really

think they didn't have highways like

everyone else do you think they were

that stupid you may as well just say I

think Indians are dumb and when I say

things like that

for some reason that works way better

for some reason people go that's a good

point

and I see that's the thing they like

more and I'm going what she's putting

people into their minds so to speak um

and yeah they're like you right and it

you think you live in a civilization

where they wouldn't come up with

something like this and people just go

yeah that's a good point and that seems

to work better um then when I give the

really good scholarship that that that's

coming out of the best thing tanks Orem

or even I was being questioned on them

on the martyrdom of Joseph when he you

know he shot back at the people

and for some reason people say it wasn't

a martyr cause he shot back I'd never got

under stood that logic but I would just

say wouldn't you do the same thing yeah

yeah it's you're appealing to

common sense yeah just say yeah I would

shoot back to I'd probably would have

shot more than he did you know what like

it's fine and people seem to like that

approach and I think it's because I'm

not a trained I'm just a guy who

believes in it wants to do it there is

an appeal to that right that's your show

as well there's an appeal to someone

who's I'm just doing this I'm a normal

guy people seem to like that more often

it again it's easier to relate to

you know because you've got it's just

again if I if Elder Holland is he's

gonna come and say you know we need to

appeal more of the garden-variety member

how does someone like a Maxwell

Institute do that because you hear

you've got a scholarly you know used to

be farms back in the day but now it's

it's owned by BYU it is for scholars to

speak to other scholars that's primarily

their audience I mean other people

obviously go there but it's you've got

scholars that have

you have scholars that need to advance a

career you have scholars that are and

again great scholars but there is

there's a there's an intrinsic agenda

there that you can't avoid it you just

can't avoid it that's its credibility is

everything and title is everything in

that world and so you know appealing to

the garden-variety member is not it

is probably not gonna you know you're

not really you're not speaking to other

scholars well there in the church or

outside of the church in that way and it

seems to me that Maxwell Institute is

built a little bit more toward

just that they want to you know that you

listen to their podcasts for example

it's very much more as if they're

there they're speaking to other scholars

right and so well you and I are doing is

speaking to just the general people

right and at the end of the day it's

the general people that are the body of

the church that are moving you know the

kingdom right it's the general people

that's who the church is mostly made of

and again I'm doing this not to make a

name not to start a career I'm doing

this simply because I feel like I have

to do it and I the goal is I don't want

people to be in the position I was in

when I was converting and I don't think

they are anymore I think there's been

enough done on YouTube since 2015 2014

where now there's a lot more I mean I

get made I get an email every other day

and I get at least one two three

sometimes like five messages a day for

people saying hey the work you're doing

is helping and to me that that says that

this can work to me that says that

people should not be afraid to put

themselves out there

I look Utah is incredibly talented right

Utah you've got everyone here can sing

everyone here is good-looking you I mean

you look and you just go to the Utah

Valley and I'm like there is absolutely

no reason we should not be dominating

the

religious scene I don't know why we're

not I mean we the people here have a

charisma and a charm they look great on

camera there are they serve two year

missions for Pete’s sake

they're articulate we've got the silicon

slopes here people in tech who are

geniuses I'm saying and we're letting

our butts get kicked online we should be

let me tell you there's no reason we

should not just be dominating and so I

am hoping we'll see a ton more YouTubers

we're seeing we're seeing you know the

outcast of guys and Sunday Jess and in

some of these you see a lot of a lot of

girls doing it who happened to be able

to yes but it's more lifestyle makeup

it's not here it's not theological we

yet we need people I think of the lot of

the people who will reach out to me and

send me messages or are they come from

an evangelical Baptist background and

they're in high school and they're

converting and they want to join the

church but the parents they know and

they'll coming meals like quake and

quake you what do you do with this

because the Bible says this I'm nervous

and they go it's not a big deal you know

I'll give them read these verses here in

the New Testament this was talking about

and it helps to calm the fears but what

happens is when you do that when

when essentially you look at the

playground and you get you have the

bully pushing the kid down every day

for two months the day before the end of

the school he picks up a pine cone he

throws it at the bully again it hits the

bully in his head and he goes out how

dare you do that he's he never thought

that kid would stand up for himself

we're kind of in that situation now were

vocally members of the church are

standing up for themselves and saying

hey enough is enough

no more slam dunks you know no more

massacres at this point we're not we're

not we're not wimps you know and when

you do that it makes a lot of people

very upset I've I have made many many

many of pastors very angry I've gotten

some very

angry letters and believe it or not it's

it's usually it's usually when it's

something on the defensive it's usually

when I'm responding to something so when

someone will say hey Joseph Smith was a

false prophet because blah blah blah

and I'll say here's what I think that's

inaccurate and not only that here's why

I think Christianity doesn't work unless

Joseph Smith was a prophet when I when I

when I say that it's one I think it's

stronger it's more confident but it kind

of puts them on the defensive

I agree guys who've never had to be

there yeah and that's something that you

do that is very different right you're

you're you are even though I know that

like with these debates where you've

been invited and you've started

on the defensive side of this you're

still somewhat of a provocateur right

you are you're somewhat of a provocateur

in some cases you might even say a

lightning rod in some instances but

you've but there's something about

again to me you know I talk a lot about

something I call the values hierarchy

politeness is up there somewhere but

it's not at the very top and I think

that I think that you've got to you want

to get the truth out there you've got to

push the truth and it's not just a

matter of defending yourself right

it's like you you've got to get

the truth out there to them as well and

that's the way you do it if you're

always sitting back you know taking all

the points of the CES letter and trying

to defend yourself you know that doesn't

really work for you and it doesn't work

for anybody else but and I think that's

why what you're doing is very different

because I think there's there is a

feeling you know where I think that

Mormons are very polite kind of people

you know relatively and there's this

feeling of well I don't think I should I

feel uncomfortable

debating you know you get the idea of

bible-bashing and all this other stuff

but again I think what you're doing

to some degree is very refreshing

it's not that I want I'm

looking for somebody who's attacking but

it is it is that I think it's important

that we you know defending the truth

means pushing it out there right you

know and unless we can be on common

ground instead of feeling like oh okay

church history has this with Joseph

Smith there's polygamy and there's you

know feeling for some reason like you're

always on the defensive I think is the

wrong thing

I think you've got it you've got to

inform yourself you've got to educate

yourself so that you're standing on even

greater footing when you're when

you're conversing with people like this

what so it's that exactly it's that

you know you probably know

from doing a show you're gonna say some

things you regret right you're gonna be

like I probably could have happens right

yeah so I've had my moments or like I

wish I had not I could have been nice or

I could have phrased that better but I

think generally I do try to be try to be

kind I'm putting out a video soon of my

favorite non-LDS Christian leaders just

people I who are great - I really buy

who are not members of our faith but at

the same time

there is a no it this is just as

someone who I'm in the comms program at

BYU right as someone who just studies

media here's the way it is if you're

always on the defensive you look wrong

you could you could be completely right

but if you're always on the defensive

you look wrong to people you look like

you're you don't have the right position

and so we've we basically allowed

ourselves to lose every single time the

first way we lose is if we we're only on

the defensive and we go here's what the

CES letter isn't true they're wrong

about this the wrong about this the

wrong about this how many times do you

say that until you just look like a

quote unquote apologist the other issue

is our reputation is that we have to be

nice always and that means we have to

sacrifice being right we have to

sacrifice truths sometimes the problem

with being nice always is that

doesn't convince anyone

and it certainly it's

he hasn't done the job I've had people

ask me hey why don't you just leave bear

testimony leave it at that and walk away

they say because that's the attitude

that's led so many members of the church

leave and have no one fight for them

that's the attitude that has what is

like 60% of Sweden go inactive right

that's the attitude that is why you've

got hundreds of BYU students protesting

BYU and you've got all these students at

UVU who've left the church who want

nothing to do with it and think it can't

we have the most ridiculous answers

because someone says Book of Mormon

geography is inaccurate because of a B

and C and they say I know it's true I

know the church is true leave me alone

that doesn't sound confident that sounds

I'm secure so we have to kind of put

others on the defensive sometimes you a

sword and shield is what you need when

you go into battle not just a shield you

won't get very far that's a great

analogy and you know what you know what

else Quakers you'll see often

times it actually critics of the church

will actually mock members of the church

sometimes by saying yeah they'll

probably just bear their testimony to

you and say yeah because the spirit told

me or whatever even though that's an

important thing and it's a high value

they'll actually turn that against you

very easily right you know and unless

you're taking it out there again unless

you're taking the truth out there and I

would say for people that may not have a

lot of scholarly knowledge or a lot of

experience even as adults with a church

I think that your point is very well

taken that you know have confidence in

why you are where you where you are have

confidence in in your own personal

experience and what you do know to

this point and what has brought you

here you've got to feel confident in

that III wanted to ask you mentioned

your conversion you're 18

yes I just do you're 18 so here you've

got again you've got you're a young guy

you're part of it the Z generation the

Zoomer is where you're gonna be looking

for a lot of information online you're

you're seeing almost everything is

negative how in the world did you break

through all of that to get to a point

where you could you could

spiritually be in a position to accept

things so I had been I had felt the

Inklings to join the church for about a

year when I first started us getting at

17 I went to church with a friend I felt

something I felt something different

than I had ever felt in church ever

before it was a new kind of feeling a

year later I'm on a Methodist mission

trip in Apache Oklahoma helping Native

Americans work I get a pretty strong

confirmation I need to join the church

those confirmations were serving among

Native Americans and one of the Chiefs

of Apache came to us and told us how

Christianity was brought to the

campground and he said it was Mormon

missionaries icons and years ago the

second thing was we had a retired pastor

on the trip of us who told us that he

had come to understand God differently

than all of us and that we wouldn't we

hadn't grasped it yet but he said I've

come to really understand that God is a

father this is something I don't think

most of you understand yet you don't

really get it but he's actually a father

those two things as I was trying as I

kept feeling pushed closer and closer

and I was praying hey I need I need a

witness I what sealed it for me was the

kingdoms of glory and kingdoms of heaven

reading about that and Baptists for the

dead that sealed it for me I knew I said

this is what is true

I felt the strongest spiritual

impression had ever had ever it was

right then and there this is true once I

had that witness I didn't really care I

I knew that was strong that witness was

stronger than some guys internet he

bought from

from you know a Square space and wrote

his article and said here's why Joseph

Smith is wrong anyone can do that I've

made websites for people it's not that

hard for me it was whatever this isn't

hard to do

I had already early high school it

already been through is somewhat of an

atheist phase because of how much I

watched a lot of you know media a lot of

movies music a lot it was atheistic I

know how you make you can you can make

your opinion look good if you get enough

views and a nice camera and a good sound

right so to me it was I don't really

care who is saying what I knew it was

true and then about two years later I

knew okay

this is one of the reasons why I joined

as when I did join was because I feel

very strongly that the Lord needs me to

be among those people that is trying to

build a space here online and so I kind

of just said I felt the spirit strong

enough and I've got that L confidence

that says who cares and I kind of just

wrote into battle how did your family

feel about that so believe it I didn't

actually tell my mom when I got baptized

I told her the day after I told my

sister before we're at a mall getting

food and I told her I'm joining

the LDS Church and all she's asking

about is Brendan Davies basketball is he

playing again and I'm like alright okay

you don't really care and then my mom

the next day Africa baptized she goes so

you joined the Mormon alright a few

months later she's like so are you gonna

have a couple wives and I said no but

the fact that you thought that and it

wasn't a big deal to you is somewhat

concerning so they didn't take it

to UM my mom was a little bit confused

later on just randomly a point she would

be like wait do you really believe this

and I would say no no it's fine but they

took it pretty pretty well for the most

part very very accepting family and

regard to those things so you had now

you use interesting you brought up two

doctrines here that when you say you

learned about those you knew it was

true both of these doctrines because

I've discussed this with other converts

and especially the kingdoms the kingdoms

of heaven or of glory but also baptisms

for the dead sometimes or oftentimes a

key point to conversion because and

I'm not gonna put words in your mouth

but is it because of the idea of justice

is it because of the idea that everybody

has an opportunity to grow and to

progress however we choose to do it at

the at the end of the day I will put

words in the mouths of other Christians

real quick I love them to do that I'll

take that mantle at the end of the day

every person who is Christian is

uncomfortable with the way God's

justice is administered every single

person the V you're saying that boat

you're saying that the most creedal

Christians right yes are

uncomfortable with our own doctrine 100%

growing up in in that world we were all

uncomfortable with it it's something you

don't really want to say but you know

you'd be in Sunday school you know you'd

be at a you know a youth camp or

whatever and you just someone be like

almost gonna hell accept for us like

it's something that you go that's a lot

of billions that's most people ever

that's most Asians statistically

most Asians ever write like it was

something that no one's that comfortable

with and in fact I asked my pastor that

trip I had the trip were right where I

felt the push to become a lot of a saint

I asked her I said everyone's gonna fail

except for us I mean every single person

and didn't God know and she didn't

really have an answer for me she just

said yeah kind of the way it is

to me when you have something that

uncomfortable something that's that big

of a hole you the apologetic

answer you get from Protestants and

evangelicals and I don't blame them

this is the only answer they really can

give to work with

their doctrine is you know Jesus

is the way and we're not the ones to

make the call and just because we're

uncomfortable the call doesn't mean it's

not true

well that that doesn't work for most

people and that's the reason why I mean

religions in general are decline and

Christianity is declining in the States

but um evangelical Christianity is

declining very very fast at a very rapid

rate that's one of the issues when you

say Jesus is the only way and if you

don't accept Jesus in this life if you

don't accept the right Jesus right so

your pastor may say Catholics are not

real Christians Jehovah's Witnesses

latter-day saints seventh-day Adventist

not actual Christians they're going to

hell only real Christians American

Baptistic evangelical Christians are

going to heaven everyone else is doomed

at the end of the day let's say you have

five people in that pew all of those

people are somewhat uncomfortable with

that

some of them are very good at ignoring

it but at least two of the people go ah

that doesn't sit well with me I don't

know how to vocalize that or express

that but I don't think that's true and

because of that American Christians have

almost embraced this sort of New Age

kind of Christianity where it's you know

it's that barrier that that very you're

perfect the way you are you know that

that very much that sort of that

suburban Pinterest-y Disney channel

Christianity words it's hey you know God

loves you just as you are and as

long as you love God you'll be okay

you know well the doctrines kind of just

removed and now it's just be nice and

that's all Jesus taught um and

that's sort of where they go because the

the historical Reformation onward

Christian narrative cradle crash

narrative to a lot of people when it

regard to salvation is something they

can't sign their name to they don't know

the answer they don't know that God's

justice is fair and they don't know

that at the same time

the atonement has to be

respected they don't realize that you

can't have a chance after this life to

accept the gospel but that's still

through Jesus right they don't they

don't know about the spirit world they

don't know about those things but when

you understand those things it makes God

not a moral monster but it also respects

what Christ did on the cross and people

don't know that those two things can be

weighed together but that's a great

point I mean you have to understand the

spiritual economy there and you have to

understand that yeah it's like you know

what did Christ suffer for did he not

suffer that much then because that's

really what you'd have to say there's

not a whole lot of suffering there right

because it's just as long as you're okay

and you're good like we're told you know

you lie a little steal a little and at

the end of the day just get a slap on

the hand everything's okay right yeah we

it's neither right because you have

been the predicament of people can go to

heaven without believing in Jesus then

he didn't need to die or he only

suffered for a couple people a limited

atonement which case you know probably

not making it to heaven anyway

statistically have fun do whatever you

want to do in life yeah that's a good

point

now what about you let me ask you

personally as a an African-American

coming into the church I mean converted

what were the issues that you were

challenges for you there or if or where

there any you know not really to me you

know I knew about the priesthood ban I'd

read some of the more rogue Brigham

Young quotes you know I knew I knew

the history mom

but to me I that witness I had and that

belief that Joseph Smith was a prophet

was I kind of said all right here here's

the here's reality I know there was the

priesthood band until 78 I know the

church leaders had said X Y & Z I

still believe the vision happened I

still believe in the Book of Mormon what

do I do here I think that one's over I

think that one's over

this uncomfortability I put it yeah I

had to put it in first historical

perspective see what people don't like

to do I feel is people have

people will say I believe the gospel is

true but a lot but unfortunately what

they mean is I believe the gospel is

true until something in the church

offends me and what that means is

you can be you can be totally okay with

the church like I also yeah bias here

polygamy doesn't make me that

uncomfortable and it might be because

I'm a guy right I'm a guy able to make

it makes women far more comfortable

going to make sure sure but at the same

time priesthood ban can make me more

uncomfortable than it can make you know

you right um no matter what there's

always a thing that makes you a little

more uncomfortable than the guy next to

you it doesn't mean the church is not

true until that well respectively it

should have been not true until the guy

next to you your issue isn't

more important than his right so if

you get into that category of okay

there's things that are gonna make

everyone uncomfortable that we don't

understand

do I still believe in the Book of Mormon

I said I believe I believe that vision

happened in the Grove I believe in this

book so then I had to reconcile here

okay what does the church actually teach

what does the church teach in regard to

race what they teach is normal

everyone's a child of God we're all

equal did people in the past have

different beliefs yeah but just about

everywhere they did is that does that

does that reflect the restored gospel or

does that reflect humankind well pretty

much all religions did yeah I mean

people pretend as if God was

brings puts forward this truth in a

culture that is not influenced by

anything in the world

but that's not the biblical pattern set

up right um I I've said a plenty of

times talking to different religious

leaders about you know priesthood ban

and uh one of the things I'll say is

they'll say well if Brigham Young was

really a prophet wouldn't God have just

told him that he shouldn't have had

those beliefs and I'll say Paul was

really an apostle wouldn't God have just

told him he was kind of wrong about

women and I'll say that they'll say well

I mean you know like Kate

he had that cultural belief that is what

the Jews believed at the time regard to

women they were eternally speaking they

were not right

they had that cultural mindset in that

belief he made it into Scripture Paul

declares his apostolic Authority and

then right after says women shouldn't

speak in church I think he's wrong can I

still say he was an apostle who had

Authority who was appeared to by Christ

who was inspired and who was leading the

church I can say both of those well the

other thing to think of there is when

you are in a culture you know things

that are offensive to people are

oftentimes relative right and so

when you're in a certain time and you

know you we can't all just be Monday

morning historians what I usually say

all right you know you go back in time

you go to a different culture you don't

understand everything and I try to

explain the women thing area a little

bit at least is that you don't have

people are just trying to survive you

had to have very specific gender roles

you had to have everything just to make

it just to be able to live every day and

so you know to come in and say I'm going

to take my perceptions here of my

culture of 21st century Western us you

know yeah lay it down on Paul or

Brigham Young even right right is

I've got you gotta weigh that out a

little bit oh yeah no I mean it the

funny thing is I I've had I've talked to

some people and the majority of the

people who asked me about the priesthood

man who were offended or not even black

right

yeah it seems to be the most people who

will be like this is terrible than like

hey I should be the one come on this is

this is what's going on here I will I'll

say to that I've had conversations about

this I'll say okay you think it's wrong

what happened you think this makes the

church false and he goes yes the way we

waved trick tree of black people was

unforgivable I can never remember the

church again

I'll ask how do you feel about them how

do you feel about LGBT issues in the

church I'll say you know what I think

it's wrong I think the church should

just be a little more progressive and

open mind and they'll say okay how do

you feel about religious culture in

Africa they'll say oh I'd love to learn

more about it such-and-such and you know

you know I love the African culture and

I'll say you can't reconcile all three

things go to Ghana my ancestors from

Ghana gay people it's illegal to be gay

there okay it's actually legal let's say

you're on whole ward tomorrow was

replaced right your ward in in

Eagle Idaho was replaced and it's

completely all members from Ghana to

make you feel better about the

priesthood ban you're gonna feel a lot

worse about LGBT issues and your word

there then you are going to feel no

matter what there's a thing that's

that's how it is my view is that Brigham

Young you look at what he had to do to

bring an entire group of people to a new

country essentially he had seen his

friends getting murdered

he knew women who had been assaulted his

best friend was killed by a mob and he

had a very general distrust of not only

all the other Christian churches that

were around who were kind of okay with a

lot of the persecution but the US

government this is someone who was under

more pressure than any of us will ever

face in our entire lifetime this is

someone who did who accomplished more

than most people will ever accomplish in

their lifetime and you're gonna say

you're gonna bag on him and throw

everything away because he had a belief

on race that was pretty common for his

day and sometimes in the case a little

offensive than what was a comment for

his day sure I was like as a black

person I say I don't know how you can

get to that position I don't I think

that's ridiculous if you look at what

Brigham Young did it is objectively an

impressive thing I think I mean I

believe he was in spy don't think he

could have done what he did without

being inspired by the Lord and when I

say that the people will kind of be like

wait what you're supposed to hate

Brigham Young no no um I think he had

those beliefs and you know what I can

go into apologist mode and I can track

down where he started to believe those

things and from what at the end of the

day can faulty people be inspired and

can their faultiness

only be faultiness that doesn't

specifically offend you or can it be

true faultiness and you cut at the there

is an aspect of that personal pride that

actually gets in the way of saying the

proud the prophets are infallible

they're infallible until something that

bothers me and then they're just wrong

sure yeah no it's a good point so it's a

very good point so it's very much a

truth I wanted to ask you being a Zoomer

being from generation Z you know and

I've had this discussion with my family

my kids and others and you know

there's more of an issue today than

there was 20 years ago say for example

of young adults people come in even

teenagers right really having a faith

crisis and struggling with the church

maybe falling away from the church

what do you think are some of the

reasons for that so I mean we're in I

think that the biggest reason that we

were in a crazy change of culture we are

in a position that I'm not sure

the religious world was ready to handle

we've got unlimited information and our

social media is built up in a way where

if someone's on the winning side it's

hard to win so you've got you've got

people an Instagram Twitter and let's

just use Instagram and Twitter just

right now if someone tweets Church sucks

blah blah blah and they're tapped in and

they get two thousand retweets and

and in in 10,000 likes and then someone

underneath them says no the church is

true that's not what I believe and they

get 50 likes you've got the

ideology of ratio where people can

actually see literal support for

something in front of their eyes

they can literally see the number of

people supporting something and they can

see that they're on the least popular

end they also well then they they're

getting it from different angles so

especially if members of the Church in

Arizona right into in Tempe Arizona or

Gilbert or Mesa were there is an

evangelical influence and there's also

an atheistic ex-Mormon influence you

have both ends saying the exact same

thing Joseph Smith was wrong Joe Smith

is wrong and you've got the

atheists that are evangelicals that are

borrowing from the Atheist sometimes so

it's not just that you're a general

Christian versus non-Christian or

there's atheist it's your set apart

from the Christian world and the secular

world so you have double the amount of

enemies quote-unquote and then you've

got so you've got people ideologically

opposed to you and culturally opposed to

you and then you've just got the almost

the worldliness with open arms

you've got everyone with an iPhone or an

Android that you know if someone wants

to watch porn they're a click

away you know and I hate to sound like

some bishop but oh brother and the

pornography but that's truly what

it is right it's I mean I

wasn't alive in the 70s or 80s

but the stories I hear is you had to go

to like a magazine shop and you had to

like put a hood on and go into the

sketchy store and buy it and you didn't

you only used cash cause you know what

your car linked to it and you were

ashamed

you've got people you've got pornhub is

like a number in the top ten most

visited websites in the world right so

you've got you've got essentially what's

immorality so easy the axe is so

incredibly easy and

you've got sexual immorality that's

become so normalized now when you're

dating someone in high school it's

expected okay you're gonna have you're

gonna have sex with them that's expected

and that's now an expectation that's put

on latter-day saints and it's it at

some point the stacks become so much

it's okay people everyone's telling me

I'm wrong the culture isn't on my side

what do I do here I need some answers

let me get the answers I mean I can get

the answers to some of my questions or

know some things that'll remedy and

making me feel better as opposed to just

a conference talk or just feeling the

spirit I'll be okay okay I went online

to find answers I found the CES letter I

found this I found this I found this

I'm not getting answers I'm just getting

more stuff that's pushing me away and

it's a lot easier I mean it is just

interject real quick to me and again I'm

not in your generation here but when you

are so used to getting those answers by

simply clicking on something right it's

a lot easier to go down a rabbit hole

real quickly instead of say talk to your

friends even or your parents or someone

who might give you a different answer

and different guidance right it's

like I've got everything right here at

the palm of my hands and so you know

it's very I think it's very I think

it's more I think one of the major

issues with this and it goes along with

what you're saying is I can not just

click on some

thing I can easily start going down the

rabbit hole and take on a whole new

ideology right just from first off

what I get online and then start

building a world around that right yeah

I mean your we get answers you get the

wiki house and get answers to everything

fast and then when it comes to the

church you what you have the same

mindset and you can't get the answers

and then people say people people's uh

their ideologically their

testimony is faltering and they're just

holding on by the spirit but what

happens when you can't hold on just

emotionally anymore

right sure what happens when you get to

be where you were UVU or the University

of Utah or ASU and couple your friends

have left the church and they

just they pass it off as ridiculous that

you're still in the church weapons when

you're a family member leaves what

happens when it gets really close to you

at home to you um and you've got just

you've got just a little bit left

just a little bit left and then there's

a protest on campus and the church looks

evil then you're out you know what I

mean

it it's we've got we are in a unique

position because we have so much piling

on us whereas other Christian churches

don't they don't they don't really

have anyone specifically saying oh

you've got a false gospel Baptists don't

want to sing that to them no one's

trying to no one's going through

Christian history in pointing out the

flaws although there is a faith if

there's a faith crisis it's atheism for

them that's it

right yeah it's not it's very rarely oh

well actually the Methodists are right

and not the Baptist's right you know

even in that though what's

almost a miracle is that our retention

rate is higher still even though we are

on the least likely right even

though we've got the worst going

essentially for us here our attention

rate is higher I think that's community

I do think that's a lot a lot of it I

think a lot of it is community I mean

you look at the Pentecostals for example

there

same way they have they have a high

retention rate but they create a

stronger community that you might find

in in some of the other evangelical face

but you know you you're saying okay it's

easier to fall down the rabbit hole it's

easier to find answers online and

and then I liked your point about social

media and all the likes right it's like

okay well what should I really virtually

signal out here then if I if I'm getting

a lot you know ten times the likes on

this but what are the specific issues

that that might be a problem in other

words are there doctrinal issues that

you see are problems I would say the

biggest problems I wouldn't actually

even say for the most members it isn't

necessarily doctrinal issues as much as

it is confusion about church history and

social climate mm-hmm so people don't

allow people don't know what to do with

with the gay marriage issue in the

church right the nation's going one way

Western culture is going one way

religions are standing in the opposite

direction they're saying we're not going

to budge on this right now we're at a

very interesting crossroads where people

are saying what do I do

am i a homophobe if I still remember the

church and so that I think that's one

that's probably in the top two issues

right now so much so work approach

there's a protest on BYU campus of all

places right you know what I mean so I

mean it is it is that that's something

that is that's not something that

apologetics can fix that's

something that's you kind of have to

make a decision there church history is

one that apologetics can come in

with heavy arm and say hey here's the

thing what people are saying about this

and this and this is it's false or

here's what's actually great about

Joseph Smith the but I find that it's

it's usually those two it's you

some CES letter adjacent church history

thing Book of Abraham a polygamy race

and priesthood or its LGBT issues and

it's sometimes you get you do get the

people that are joining the church from

the evangelical background who don't

care about LGBT issues that's not their

focus they've already decided they want

to be in the Orthodox religious circle

and you're just doing biblical

apologetics then on the whole though

that's a small percentage and for the

most part it is um it's one of

those two and right now what we have to

do is my opinion is for the historical

things and regard to media we need to

have we need we need the fair Mormon

good eye we need a team of young people

to go to fair Mormon and say give us the

information we're gonna make it look

good and we're gonna put out a seven

minute video that looks good it's

entertaining it gets it across and it

uses charisma that's where we get that

done how does that start how does it go

beyond what you're doing how do you how

do we get other people young people to

go out and do that they have to see that

it's being done and that they have that

they have the means to do it I've often

joked that um just I love the new book

important videos but a lot of a lot of

the actual stuff that comes out of the

church actual church media I've often

joked you can go to the Utah Valley and

get some of those LDS girls who were

have a million subscribers on YouTube

making silly videos and make up and you

could say we're gonna give you a ten

thousand bucks each to go fix church

media I bet it would be better I

guarantee you those girls from well

certainly for the youth it would be

better no question for young adults

definitely be better okay they know what

to do they know what to say they know

how to make it look I have a new show

coming out pretty soon called this is

the show produced by fair it's an entire

it's a sketch comedy talk show

specifically about defending the church

and taking down the CES letter and

putting anti-Mormon criticisms on the

defensive

and it's all done with humor but that's

gonna be coming out soon and I think

we're gonna be seeing how it can work I

think when it regard to LGBT issues that

right there is that's and I have to be I

have to be careful what I say cause I

don't want to be insensitive to anyone

but that's a battle over that's a

cultural battle in the 1940s or 50s if

someone said they were gay they were

immediately associated with being a

pervert or a pedophile now you think of

gay people you think of Modern Family

you think of clear eyes you think of

these lovable people who on earth would

be against them no one would right and

the way that that the LGBT movement is

able to do that is they got hold of

Culture Music Entertainment they knew

what to do they got a hold of culture

and they were able to completely

change the narrative latter-day saints

we've been here since 1830 and we have

not gotten a hold of culture we never

really will because we're set apart from

the culture of the world but we can do a

better job the position of saying I

believe in traditional families or I

believe that marriage between a man and

a woman and the temple because that's

the only way people can become like God

I've actually explained that to people

that I've explained to people we don't

just believe Adam and Eve we believe

heavenly father and mother and their

union is what creates godhood

essentially and we believe to get to the

top kingdom of heaven you have to be in

that union or else you can't become a

god when I just say that to people they

go oh alright

that make okay I get it when you thought

when you don't explain it that way just

bare-bones to people even though it

leaves more questions they just think

you're being a jerk so when I've

explained I lived in San Francisco for a

year and I would be I would I would have

a lot of gay people ask me about that

Hey quake ooh what's with the why can't

we get married in your church if you

just say well God just wants to be man

and woman you just people just think

you're being a jerk when you say we

believe this specific thing that can

only happen

of this eternal law and it doesn't work

with two men they're not as offended

they go there it's oh there is then it's

not just cultural then right because

that's like Joe you are I mean but

that's my culture yeah that asked to be

brought into the culture and has to be

spoken in a way that people get we have

to make that a part of the conflict

cultural conversation of LGBT issues in

the church we've shied away from it I

feel I feel because that's a dachshund

that that's a doctrine that um makes our

other Christian brothers and sisters

uncomfortable when you say becoming gods

and because of that we've decided to

totally sometimes we'll use terms like

eternal progression exaltation which

somewhat open-ended terms to term

certain people and that's to appease

these other religious people but to the

people who are nominally religious and

secular when you say becoming a god they

go whoa what that's cool that's it

that's the reaction they go okay people

make fun of other people say Mormons

believe they're getting a planet which I

get a right it's hyperbolic and it's

it's to evoke something you're but to

someone who isn't who hasn't chosen a

religion but here's that you know what

they think often times they think that's

kind of cool that's what they think

hey when you say hey my belief in this

isn't because of a dislike for gay

people at all here's what you're missing

from the conversation we believe in

becoming God's heavenly father and

mother here's what it's got to be you

can only reach that that place of

becoming a God if you are sealed with

that ceremony with that what we call

this eternal priesthood power to become

a God it's got to be a man and a woman

together and we actually leave Adam and

Eve remodel after that we don't really

believe marriages model after Adam and

Eve we believe their model after

something more women can become gods -

they go oh that's completely different

than I ever thought I thought it was

just a bunch of old guys at a pulpit

trying to be mean to gay people when you

make that a part of the conversation put

that in the cultural dialogue it's a

game changer well

goes back to what we're discussing about

being nice and polite right instead of

bringing the truth forward like that

that that would be that example right

there is exactly what we were talking

about and it does change everything I

had an interview last year with a

faithful gay convert he's a great guy

and he says he said the same thing

you know in fact he was he's very

interesting story but he came to the

church believe it or not from the same

podcast you started talking about

opening up this interview anti-Mormon

podcast and the reason is because he was

a Jehovah's Witness and you know he

never really like he grew up with

Jehovah's Witness he never really you

know turned away from that in a sense he

still always was interested in that

community he never wanted to be a

Jehovah's Witness anymore but he was

interested in that and so he would

follow interviews about gay people that

were basically excommunicated and not

just from the church but from their

families and society that society period

right right and from doing that and

going through YouTube he came along

those interviews and he said I

couldn't believe the stark difference in

number one in the cultural side of

things where those that were gay and

Mormon were actually still loved and

accepted you know it's just okay they

didn't they had the law of chastity

right and for him what ended up doing it

was number one same thing you brought up

with baptisms for the dead and the

kingdoms of glory that's number one for

him being let's just call it in some

ways an outsider as you know being gay

being in a minority group that made

sense to him that was like okay I this

is much easier this is not black and

white if I am gay I'm going over here if

I'm not I can go over here like this

makes a lot more sense to me and

other thing was believe it or not he

came to the church because of the LDS

policies now 20 years ago that wouldn't

have been the same but he did come to

the church because of the bickering

gay LDS policies and what we believed he

was great with that same with you he

read The Book of Mormon and that was

it he was able to overcome whatever

history there was there in the last but

the key there

again I think a lot of the cultural

things if you can articulate common

sense and the doctrines behind it

well I I think that you are in a much

better position to fend off attacks to

fend off doubts and if you're not a

member to I think I think that for a

non-member that hasn't been brought up

in just the polite environment it's a

lot easier to say yeah why do I want to

hear more of this I want to hear more of

this you know instead of it's like

you're saying I mean what you do is what

I've seen that you that you're doing is

you actually take a lot of what is

attacked in the church and you turn it

on its head right you actually say it's

it's not like I mean I honest with you

it's a little bit you know I'm not gonna

go there but yes you're taking what

seems to be a weakness and you're making

it a strength right yeah that's

one of the things I did that's oh

hi Melissa I always try to do that and I

I'm going to be coming out with

something on LGBT issues very soon

actually discussing that because when

you just say the problem with just

saying which is good you should all we

should love everyone that's very

important and the problem you just say

we should love more it doesn't answer it

doesn't does not answer any of the

question you know what is that what do

you mean love more because the person

who want who is who is uh who wants to

get married

you can't get married in the church says

okay lovely many more means changing

your doctrine person who doesn't want to

change doctors loving more just means

like accepting and not judging as much

you can only say love more until you get

to the bypass and say all right we're

just flowing words this is word salad

right let's get to the nitty-gritty okay

here's what it is here if this is this

is the doctrine here if we're being

consistent with our doctrine then we

can't allow it but we can call for

greater acceptance we can call sir hey

don't use some of these words we can say

if someone leaves the church because

they're gay for certain such reasons

understand that mental health can be a

number of these things are a factor okay

we should not be judging here but we

can't budge here and when you when you

make that clear and you can vocalize

that with articulation people people get

it but until you do that you know people

view it they view it as 12 mean old

white guys who don't like who don't like

rainbows that's what they view it is and

but that's not the case you know elder

Christofferson

brother is gay right elder songs

grandson I believe is gay people it's

not that it's they're set apart or they

don't understand it no it's in their

family's too it's in their friendships

too but the doctrine doesn't budge and

if you can communicate that in a way

where you don't look like a jerk and you

don't look like weak people people say

this makes sense I understand that if

they were to change this they don't even

have a religion anymore I understand

that and this is why they hold that

position we're in a because of our

doctrine were in a more unique place

than other religious like other

Christian churches because we're drawing

after something deeper than Adam and Eve

or Paul's writings we're drawing up or

something that is intrinsic and we

are on better footing and so again I'm

always like I don't know why we have

totally just missed the boat here and

I'm cold we didn't used to though you

know it's

it's cyclical right because if you go

back to the 19th century that's where

things with Brigham Young and but you

know that's where we start looking at

wow that was like the deep doctrine

period of time right you got the Pratt's

and in others that's like wow this is

really deep doctrine but it's also what

people were drawn to right it is it you

know the stuff you know going back to

Joseph Smith Brigham Young the Pratt's

etc you are in you're in a place

where even though we wouldn't accept

everything there especially from the

Pratt's and a little bit from Brigham

Young as doctrine today but it's

what drew people there because you were

in your a separated people right at your

own who knows what it was going to be

Deseret was going to become at the time

they didn't know is it gonna be our own

country our own state is it our own who

knows right they were trying to get

California and Oregon and everything

else as part of the part of the state

but it was a time where you were

persecuted heavily you had the US Army

coming after you where you were about to

be very very close to war right and

then you know so you had a reason to

stay different you had a reason to stay

at arm's length and I think that coming

into the media world into the 20th

century there was more of uh you know

even all the way up through Gordon B

Hinckley and I am a Mormon

right type of a feeling it was like we

want to look and as normalized as

possible to the world right it's like

and there's reason for that there is

reason for that but on the flip side of

that I think that as you kind of

call Mormonism or the stigma of

Mormonism or the perception of Mormonism

like a rough stone rolling right right

it's like if you smooth everything out

you're just like every other stone out

there right and so I think there

needs to be a little bit of a counter

there that says look these things

were we're unique were unique for a

reason

and here is why and so if there was

the ability to have examples more

examples and fair Mormon does a pretty

good job but more examples of being able

to articulate these doctrines and even

call some cultural points benefits of

the community of being a part of the LDS

community you know I think that you

play on it I think you play on those

strengths that's what you should

do instead of saying oh that makes me

weird so I don't even want to talk about

it that's my point of view anyway no

yeah when you embrace the weird it's

weird yeah it's like it when someone's

coming to your door to sell you

something

and they and you want to say Kay how

much is it and they evade you go what

and now I'm focusing on the thing you're

not saying and it may it's making me

more uncomfortable

sure just straight up say it and so I

mean we be respectful right there's

certain things we need we need to be

better there we need to be respectful

about but on my channel I try not to I

try to just be honest about what

we believe and then X and then show how

it's a strength as opposed to avoiding

it to seem like everyone else

sure cause I think that's right approach

quick you I really do I think that's you

need to keep doing that I think that's

important I think Joseph Smith would be

very upset in the next life of all the

apologists meet up with him in the next

life and he says all right who here

trying to make us sound like

Presbyterians or Methodists cause guess

what you know I got shot alright I got

four that I cannot believe you would do

that so yeah if we I mean just being

real just being honest and um that

that's what that's what I'm doing and it

looks like and I would say and

learn to articulate right the

doctrine and learn to articulate the

position you know learned or there's so

many things that are you know the Book

of Abraham you brought up previously

there are really good ways without

getting into too much scholarly work to

go through that you know and no III

church history and The Book of Abraham

and the process of Joseph Smith looking

into a hat and all these things are to

me you know I talk a lot about the

higher and lower laws right and to me

those are all lower law things it's the

the physical evidence it's the science

behind how was the Book of Mormon

translated or how was the Book of

Abraham translator and everybody gets

hung up on these things right and I'm

not saying they're not important I'm not

saying it's not good to know and to go

through it and for fair Mormon and

others to you know Jeff Lindsey does a

great job with this and go in and back

up and support these things but in the

end to me it's about the text right it's

about them what is the proof right

and we're told by the Savior you shall

know them by their fruit and it's

like what is what is the Book of Mormon

what is it saying and I have much more

respect and reverence for if we're going

to more of a scientific proofing of

actually of people that actually go into

the text and look at that you know the

Hebrew isms and the chiasmus or

whatever else they're looking at then I

do with how did Joseph Smith do this and

again I'm not saying it's not important

but it's a lot less important than

what the book claims to be either of

those books claimed to be and if you

can learn to articulate things from what

the a text actually says instead of

being bothered down here with you well

how did this come about and here's this

scroll on that scroll how it where they

happened with the fire in Chicago and

you know who cares you know learn the

text first and understand what it's

saying that's what the Book of Abraham

is the Book of Abraham is not how it

came to be the Book of Abraham is the

Book of Abraham right and learn

to articulate what these things might

mean

learn the text learn the text and

then go from there

right no definitely so anyway quake you

I really appreciate your time this is a

great discussion I hope we can do it

again sometime we will talk about a

couple of different topics but I wish

you the very best of luck on your

channel and what you're doing with

Fair Mormon and anybody else keep

doing it it's important and I think that

a lot of everybody but it but especially

young adults need to pay a little bit

more attention to what you're doing and

and try and try and understand you know

there is a community there and a lot of

people that have a lot of knowledge or

even not as much knowledge that that

have the same belief you do and

they're grounded in very good principles

and even some matter of facts as you

say that that you know you're not alone

you don't sit on an island there's a lot

of people out there and hopefully we can

see a lot more of that out YouTube or a

podcast or wherever it might be and

people can feel a little bit more

comfortable about being who they are and

about what they believe in so well thank

you I appreciate it and yeah let's

let's do this again sometime