Cwic Show- Parenting, Marriage & Natural Horsemanship

Ron Searle does a masterful job of guiding us through our relationship with our sons, especially those that are difficult. He shows how to make the relationship of your son with you, the most important thing to your child. More important than making bad decisions and rebelling. Ron also shows how these principles apply to a marriage relationship.

What's incredible, is how this shows up in Natural Horsemanship and the relationship of trust between a horse and its leader. The stories are amazing and if you are a parent or a spouse, you will learn something invaluable through this episode.

Ron Searle is the owner of Arivaca Boys Ranch in Arivaca, Arizona. A ranch that takes in troubled boys and teaches them how to develop relationships of trust through the process of Natural Horsemanship also known as Equine Therapy, mixed with the Arbinger program.



working with kids you know you break a

teenager in or do you raise a teenager

okay but as you break a horse you know

you get on you buck them out you know

you try to outlast the horse


was anything that I ever planned it

wasn't on my life's goals list if we go


well first off I taught Elias seminary

full-time for 18 years and then I

taught at ASU at the Institute for 10

years and teachers don't make a lot of

money so you're involved with the youth

offer quite yeah yeah I've worked with

youth for over 40 years and then of

course in church I was always in young

men's groups and in charge of working

with youth and my favorite was

always that 14 to 18 age group because

we could go and have high adventure and

be up in the mountains Cherie and do fun

things yeah that's the best calling yeah

I could tell my wife you know I have to

buy this new toy because I'm serving the

Lord yeah exactly

I need to buy that son she'd give me

permission to so I was a bit of a

workaholic I would I would teach all day

and because teacher didn't make a lot of

money I always had to have something on

this side and when I was in college I'd

sold diamonds out of a briefcase and

I got to where I was selling them to

jewelry stores and things like that when

I became a teacher I slowly changed that

business into selling wholesale to

public and we meet people in an office

and Selma diamond of course then

they needed a ring or something to put

it in and next thing I knew I actually

had a jewelry store and before long I

had five employees and had a jewelry

store going I also had a couple rental

properties and so I found myself just

working all the time and what time I

wasn't working I'm trying to help my

wife raise our eight children of course

we have any children the whole time but

it was building still it's going to ball

games and never goes well on certs and

doing all that stuff and I remember

looking at my wife one day hey I've got

to do something fun I can't kiss work

all the time I need to unstring the bow

a little bit here and we knew when

we got married that someday we want to

have horses I had had horses when I was

a child she grew up

Ranger where did you grow up in Oregon

is where I lived when I had horses my

6th grade through eighth grade years we

lived in Ontario Oregon out in the

country on the middle potato fields and

onion fields and the sugar beet fill

does the East Side Oregon yeah right on

the Idaho border right along the Snake

River eyes

half mile from the Snake River and

anyway so I and I always do I want to

have horses someday and so I finally

said to my wife I'm gonna go get a horse

I know we can't afford every time we

talked about getting a horse you know we

needed braces for a child or something

like that and so I treated a diamond

ring out of my store to a lady for this

horse and took the horse home the horse

was wild hard to catch and I thought

that'd be fun I'll learn how to train a

horse and I didn't know anything about

training horses I there's a kid I just

rode you know I just got on and rode

nobody taught you to do anything you

just did it and so now I had this horse

that was a big two-year-old

Quarter Horse thoroughbred cross and she

was tall and big and she wouldn't

face me and when I step into the stall

she just turned her butt to me she'd

wanting to do with me and I was getting

frustrated and I get to I could get

a halter on or I'd get her out in my

back area we bought an acre lot and

build a custom home and I was set up for

horses anyway I tried to get on her and

she start bucking and over that next

three months she broke five of my bones

and I decided I needed help just falling

off I don't like to use the word fall

okay use the word that I was bucked off

your bucked off my wife would go to

church and people say what happened to

Ron because I have a cast on you know oh

he fell off the horse and no it upset

because I don't fall off horses yeah

it's kind of I've got I've got a study

group not a book club there you go yes

that's right anyway so I decide I need

some help and at that point I was

teaching at ASU I had a student in one

of my classes course nobody's asking

what'd you do to your arm you know I had

a cast on and I told him I got

bucked off and this gal says we'll let

me come out and help you I'm good with

horses and I said please come help me

because I'm gonna get rid of this horse

I can't ride her and so she came in on a

Saturday and she started talking about

natural horsemanship and I didn't have a

clue what she was talking about natural

financial horsemanship and apparently in

the horse world you know we always

believe and you see on TV that when you

break a horse and that's an interesting

word that you break a horse and I'll

make a connection here in a while too

you know raising kids and working with

kids you know you break a teenager you

know do you raise a teenager

okay but as you break a horse you get on

your buck amount you know you try to

outlast the horse and if the horse bucks

you off what do you do you get right

back on right and eventually the horse

gives in the more supply Lisa comes to

you and submits is it's fine I can't get

you off of me I'll learn to live with

you just have to be more persistent the

more persistent in the horse and the

horse is gonna try to hurt you if they

can to get you off and if you win then

you break the horse and then you put a

heavy bit in its mouth that applies

pressure and maybe use Spurs maybe a

little crop I'll whip and you're gonna

get compliance from that horse and if

they don't do what you want then you

know you know I'm not saying you whip

them but you whack them with that little

crop on the rear end or you pull on the

bit that inflicts pain mm-hmm you know

if they don't stop you can click more

pain until they stop and so the

horse learns to submit so that they

don't experience pain and more

punishment okay okay well natural

horsemanship is a completely different

approach natural horsemanship if done

right a horse will never buck the

theory is to come into the horse's

world and to think like a horse thinks

horses are a herd animal they're an

animal of prey so and we're predators

and so we're their natural enemy now

most of us see domestic horses in barns

and pastures and they're not afraid of

us but if you were to deal with a wild

horse they want nothing to do with you

they'll do anything they can to escape

get away from you and if you trap them

in a corner they'll kick they'll bite

they'll do whatever because you're the

enemy mm-hmm

well with natural horsemanship you want

to enter into the herd as part of their

social herd hmm and if you watch a herd

of horses there's a hierarchy and

there's always going to be an alpha

horse that is in charge and it's always

going to be a mare people think the

stallion is in charge and very seldom is

a stallion in charge occasionally you

know one might be but generally it's

going to be a mare an old mare that's in

charge and her job is to take care of

the herd two major Arctic yep that's

exactly what it is and her job is to

make sure they have food and water and

protection and she's on duty all day to

keep the herd safe and so each morning

as the herd wakes up and starts to move

you know a younger horse will come up to

the Alpha mare and maybe try to steal

her food and it's all done with body

language and pressure so they'll kind of

move into her space you know somebody

gets too close to you to talk to you how

you kind of back away

you can feel they're just a little too

close well that's real and so a horse

kind of moves into the other horses

space and if that horse backs away then

the horse that's left there is the Alpha

and so I'm a young horse and I go up to

the mayor and I kind of move into her

space to get the food and she there

shows her teeth or puts her ears back or

kicks at me and if I back off she stays

the Alpha if she backs off I become the

Alpha and the truth is I don't want to

be the Alpha I want her to be the Alpha

I want to eat and play and enjoy the day

and let her take care of the herd but if

she backs away now I have to take care

of the herd so I actually am looking for

her to be the leader I want to find a

leader that I can trust that'll take

care of me but when I wake up in the

morning my life's on the line and I'm

gonna test that mare to make sure she's

still capable and willing to be in

charge if she's not I will take charge

again just a little interesting side note

so down at the Boys Ranch we have

parents come visit on the weekends and

we'll do horse rides and parents

sometimes gonna been on a horse before

and we'll say them no this horse is

gonna test you and try to turn around

and go back to the barn you know as

we're going off on the ride and if you

don't take charge and say no we're going

this way

then she knows she's in charge and if

she's in charge you're going back to the

barn but if you'll take charge she'll

actually say oh good I'm safe this

person knows what they're doing

interesting and now she's willing to go

on the ride with you and do what you

wanted so is the horse in that position

is it it's not necessarily all about the

competition between you and the horse

it's a matter of the horse wanting to

know what role it plays exactly and

wanting somebody else to be the leader

so do they want more for someone else to

be the leaders so it's just more of

a test yes to make sure you're the

leader yes then hey I want to be the

leader and I'm a complete exactly

conflict was exactly what I want to be

safe mm-hm and know that somebody's

taking care of me so that I can eat and

play and enjoy the day you know I don't

want to be worried about bears coming

and Cougars coming in coyotes coming and

I want somebody else to worry about that

and take care of me so they were looking

for a leader now what we want to do is

we want to inject ourselves into the

herd and we want to become that alpha

that that leader and so in the basics of

natural horsemanship the idea is we're

going to enter into their natural world

you know we're going to learn their

language which is body language pressure

release you know I can stand next to a

horse and at first I might take my

hand and push on their hip and ask them

to give to that pressure and step over

to the side away from my hand

eventually I can just hold my hand next

to their hip and not even touch them and

they'll know that I'm asking them to

step over so when I'm riding a horse and

I need them to move their back hip to

the left to the right I can get to the

point where I just kind of tilt my

pelvis and move my leg a little bit and

they'll know that I need them to move

their hip over and that a little bit of

pressure sends the signal and because

they want to comply we have a

partnership they'll move that hip and I

and I kind of skipped a step in there so

so the first step is we want to

establish ourselves as the alpha we want

that horse to learn that they can trust

us and that we'll be in charge and we do

that by controlling their feet by moving

them so we get into a round pin and we

use a little pressure on their rear end

to make them start to run in a circle

and then we step in from use a little

pressure towards their head to get them

to turn and go the other direction and

by just using our body language we start

to control where they move around in

that round pin we move them back and

forth we get to where we can control

their speed you know have them walk slow

we can get them to gallop and the more

we control their direction their speed

and what they're doing the more they're

saying okay this person is capable of

being in charge of me and if you do it

right you finally kind of stop putting

pressure on them they'll actually turn

and walk to you and come up to you

basically saying I want to be with you I

don't want to be close to you I trust

you you're my safety zone I'm looking to

you for safety interesting so this girl

introduced me to this concept because

here I had this horse that you want me

to do

so we started doing those exercises and

sure enough it worked

within an hour I had the source

following me around like a little puppy

and I'm like oh my did an hour an hour

yeah and three months of being beat up

and breaking bones and within an hour

she had that horse following me around I

said you know what I've got to learn

more about this natural horsemanship and

so I hired a couple ladies that came and

taught me more about natural

horsemanship and how to train a horse

using it and like I say you enter

into their world you learn to

communicate the way they communicate and

these are all really good parenting tips

and by the way that we now teach to

parents you know we'll use a horse as

the example but you know instead of

forcing my teenage son to speak my

language and to think the way I think

I've got to enter into their herd into

their mindset into their world and

remember what I would like to be 14 or

15 years old you know and

communicate on the level that they're on

otherwise but you're but you're talking

to the boys though and so you're saying

that the boys need to be I mean so for

the parents and for the boys it's the

same thing it's the same every

relationship you have if I want to have

relationship with you and we want well I

again with the horse the first step is I

develop myself as the Alpha okay so that

they look to me as the leader but

there's even a deeper step and that is

forming a partnership where I recognize

that horses ability to be part of the

decision-making process so if I ask a

horse to turn to the right I don't want

him just to comply because I'm the boss

I want them to comply because they want

to do what I want to do turn to the

right mm-hmm and if we get to that stage

really I like to do is turn my head to

the right and when they feel that

they'll go oh he's thinking go right

well that's what I want to do then if

that's what he wants to do so it differs

there obviously is if you're breaking

the horse you're looking for a

partnership with a natural

horsemanship yes as compared to horsey I

don't want to do this because I don't

want the pain right yeah

it's a completely different experience

it takes longer it takes more patience

and there's a lot more frustration along

the way is there is there more

compliance with that of

yeah oh yeah I mean obviously you're

gonna have a better relationship with a

horse if you're doing it the way you're

described yeah but is there is there

more compliance by the horse you don't

even use the word compliance because now

it's were one okay so I'm sitting on the

horse and they're so connected to me and

I'm so connected to them that you know

we're following a little herd of cows

and a little steer breaks off to the

right and I look at that steer that's

breaking off and as I look the horse is

already moving to that calf to bring it

back into the herd and I mean we're we

work in unison I don't have to think

okay we're gonna go get that calf I just

have to look over then we're doing it

it's this simultaneous it's like what

people call a horse whispering and they

think that our brains are connected you

know but it really isn't it's just them

feeling my body sending signals and

then being used to me and knowing what I

want and what we're gonna do and

they want to be part of that partnership

and so they're paying attention to me so

it'd be nice you know if I just looked

at my son's bed clean his room anything

you know that we laughs but it happens

it's not quite like that what happens

instead is he sees his room getting

messy and he says you know my mom or dad

would really like this maybe the thought

just goes through his head are they all

cleaning you don't have to ask him to

clean his room he just keeps her clean

because he knows that's important to you

and the relationship is important to him

and he wants to clean the room he wants

to clean the room so you're

talking about a complete change

Oh in somebody not just saying that I'm

because that's a

completely different person it sounds

like it is as compared to well I'm gonna

do this because I have to when I'm gonna

change this behavior when I first

started looking at doing programs I

study two other programs and most

programs out there what we call behavior

modification that's the same as breaking

a horse you know we're gonna make these

boys line up in a straight line if you

step out of line then you don't get a

have dessert tonight you know we're

gonna make you do these chores if your

room isn't clean your bed isn't made a

certain way then you're gonna lose these

privileges and boys learn either to

comply with what you ask or the

punishment is gonna come and typically

boys are in the program have got to the

point when the punishment is dished

they say I don't care you know that's

their self-defense making it is not to

care take away everything I don't care

you know ground it because then you got

nothing yeah end parents have no control

over them in that point parents are like

ah we have no control what do we do and

they end up shipping their boy off to a

program somewhere to get some help and

then those programs oftentimes are what

we call behavior modification and they

found a way to structure things in such

a way that that boy will comply

eventually otherwise he's stuck there

forever you know he eventually doesn't

he just want to be the program forever

he wants to go home get back to his

friends so he will comply but what

happens as soon as he's got that heavy

foot away from that's hanging over him

once it's gone what happens well he

just reverts back to who he was and

I saw that as I was studying these

programs and said I don't want to

develop a program like that you know I

need internal heart change so back to

the horses and then I'll share a couple

of stories these ladies started teaching

me and I got to the point where I knew

more than they did

I was watching videos and reading and

and we've started to repeat the same

lessons over and over again and I

very tactfully one day said to him you

know I'm ready to go to the next level

is there another level here you know and

and that was really all they had and

women said you know there's a man his

name is Gary he was a 67 year old

Motorola executive that had retired and

in the Gilbert area he lived in Gilbert

he would go around and help people that

had trouble with their horses and he

charged like 30 bucks an hour and I paid

$20 for 30 minutes for my kids piano

lessons you know that's 40 bucks an hour

and I thought I can do that you know so

I hired him and Gary started taking me

to a level I didn't know existed

he took me past that getting the horse

to want to comply to this idea of having

a partnership of having the horse being

an equal in the decision-making process

with me honoring their ability to

choose also and how when I started

honoring that horses ability I wasn't

just do what I say all the time but it

was me listening to them which you can

listen to them they can tell you what

they need

the partnership got deeper and stronger

and then when we were riding in the


it's hard to describe it you have to

experience it it's like you're one with

this horse and you could be hanging off

a cliff and there's no panic you know

because you're one and you're working

together to get your balance and get

back on the side of the hill or order

you're crossing a river and you hit a

deep spot I'll send you drop in the

water up to your chest you know the

horse really has his nose above the

water but nobody panics everybody's calm

and it's a cool feeling when you have

that kind of relationship with the horse

and again you know there's situations in

families with people we have crisis and

things come up and wouldn't it be neat

if everybody's calm and working together

to the same goal and thinking the

same and well so Gary kept delving into

my family he never met my wife and kids

but he'd say things like you know Ron

I'll bet you drive your wife crazy and I

what are you talking about because I'm

just well I think most people tell you

that yeah they do

he says I'm watch what you're doing this

horse I'm seeing how this horse responds

to you he says I can just imagine what

your wife does

you know like Gary this horse of my wife

it's like two different things I don't

know how you'd make that comparison and

anytime I would have a problem with my

horse that wasn't doing what I would ask

or would balk at something or struggle

he'd say well you know what the problem

is don't you and I said yeah it's me

right and he'd say yeah it's you it's

not the horse the horse knows everything

the horse learned how to do everything

when it was a baby it's mom taught him

how to walk backwards and jump and turn

and spin and what we call you

know slide stop or disengages hip to the

left you know all that stuff it learned

as a baby the question is does it know

that's what you're asking and doesn't

want to do it and does it feel trusts

you enough to do hard things and he

kept making this comparison to my kids

and finally one day I kind of called him

out and said I don't see how you're

making this connection and so I'll share

this one story that just kind of changed

my life he said I'm gonna show you how

this horse affects your life how you

affect your wife with this horse but

you're you have to promise me you'll do

what I'm gonna ask you to do before I

tell you what it is because if I tell


first you won't do it and I looked at

him like I don't know he says do you

trust me or not and I okay fine I'll do


so he asked me about my teaching at ASU

where I parked and at that time our the

Institute building was under

construction and so we were teaching on

at clap on classrooms on campus and

sorry parking a parking structure and

I'd walked 20 minutes to get to my first

class and he'd asked me what time I woke

up in the morning at 4 o'clock you know

what do you do I said why get in the

shower what are you thinking about in

the shower I said well I'm thinking

about my class my first class I'm

already going through my material and

what I'm gonna do and he says ok you

park your car you're walking across

campus here to your class what do you

think advises well I'm not in the

classroom I'm already planning my day

and he goes so what I'm hearing you say

Ron is that you kind of live in the

future you're always thinking about

what's coming next you're always running

ahead and I said yeah I guess and he

says I've noticed that he says cause when

you're with me you're always looking at

your watch really and he goes yeah he

says you think your watch constantly

with me because you have something after

we're done don't we Tony you and I go

yeah I do and he says yeah you're always

living ahead you're never 100% with me

and you're never hundred-percent with

your horse you know horses don't know

past and future they only know the

present that's when the gifts God gave

them they live in the present that's all

they know and so if you live in the past

we call that depression usually and

horse doesn't know what to do with those

kinds of feelings when they feel them

from you because when you start

to develop the kind of relationships

we're talking over the horse they're

feeling what you're feeling and if you

live in the future usually you have

anxiety and a horse doesn't know how to

deal with anxiety and there's I've never

thought of that sort so though so he's

he's comparing depression to your past

so he dwells on a passion what is


sure I mean whittling on your past and

anxiety to the future is that's very

interesting yeah and a horse doesn't

know those emotions horse only lives in

the present and so if you're a person

who lives in one of those other two

places your horse doesn't know how to

deal with it and they're frustrated they

can't trust you they don't have that

they can't connect with you 100% because

something's not right and you're never

going to get that hundred percent

partnership connection you'll get the

compliance stage

horsemanship but you're not going to get

to the partner stage and that's what I

was lacking was that partner stage so he

says here's what I want you to do well

let me get a 1 year old Colt that I

couldn't get to back off of a railroad

tie my backyard was set up so that when

the irrigation water came in I had an

outside edge with two railroad ties

stacked on top of each other and then

dirt where I could keep my horse trailer

and my stalls were up there and the hay

was up there so they wouldn't get wet in

the irrigation and so I was trying to

teach this colt to back off of the

railroad tie to step off it backwards so

that when we were ready to work in a

trailer he would step out of the trailer

and wouldn't be afraid to step backward

they can't see straight behind him and

so to step backwards is stepping into

the unknown and they're scared but if

they trust you and you ask him to step

backwards into the dark they'll do it


if they don't trust you and they won't

do it and you often hear people about

here people trying to get a horse in a

trailer for example you know and you see

people out there beating the horse

trying to get him in

in fact this horse that broke my bones

the first couple times I tried to get

her in a trailer she sat down like a dog

and would not get in the trailer and we

had whips we were whacking her and

hitting her and pulling on her and

pushing on her and she would not get in

the trailer well that's no way to have

fun of the worse and have a partnership

what you want is to be able to say hey

I'd like you to walk into that trailer

and point where you wanted to go ahead

and just walk in willingly and because

they know you would never send them

somewhere that would hurt them they

trust you mm-hmm and that's what you

want well so I had this Colt and he

wouldn't back off the wrote I I said

Gary I don't get it he trusts me walking

over plastic walking over water these

are things are usually scary for a horse

mhm I do all those things and he does

him just fine but when I have him go

backwards off the railroad tie he won't

do it and Gary looks at me and says you

know why right and I said yeah me I get

it but what and he says you don't go

backwards run he says you are always

moving forward and you're always ahead

and the horse can't handle it inches and

I don't think your wife can handle it

either and I go there you go bringing my

wife into this again you know and then I

started thinking about in the morning I

would wake up way early er than my wife

and I'd move around the bedroom getting

ready and I try to be quiet right I'm in

the dark one of my dresser and grabbing

this and grabbing that and very often I

hear this voice in the dark slow down

just hold still and like what I'm not

doing anything I'm being quiet but just

my movement in the bedroom was

irritating my wife that the energy of

that I was creating it was making it

impossible her to sleep and so when he

said that that went through my mind

mm-hmm okay so Gary what does he want me

to do he said for the next week don't

touch your horse you can feed him and

that is but you can't work with him when

you get out of your truck and you walk

across campus I want you to stop

somewhere on campus where they're

students he says where would that be and

I said well there's a little kiosk that

serves coffee in the morning and there's

you know a hundred kids there because I

want you to stop at that kiosk I want

you to turn around backwards five times

and then I want you pick something 20

feet away like a flower bed or a garbage

can and I want you to walk backwards to

it and when you get to it I once you go

around it backwards five times then come

backwards where you started then I want

you to unwind and then go to class and

if you'll do that for the next five days

so this was Monday afternoon he says if

you'll do Tuesday through Friday and

then next Monday morning when I come

Monday afternoon that horse will back

off that railroad tie come on that's

what I said I said no way and he said

you promised you'd do it I said okay I

promised but I'm going there is no

connection here there's no way so you

and I made a fool yourself at four of

these hundred kids I figured out in 30

seconds what he was doing to me so I get

to the kiosk that next morning Tuesday

morning hello first of all any back up

so he leaves and I go in the house and

I'm thinking do I really affect my

family like that and my boys are

downstairs it's dinnertime right and my

boys are downstairs playing Xbox and so

I walked down the stairs quietly but

they can hear me coming and I hear I'm

whispering dad's coming they know my

walk they notice what I sound like

I come down hi boys you know I did I sit

in a recliner and I just sit there and

start watching him and they keep looking

at me going what do you want I know

nothing I'm just watching you well what

do you want nothing I'm just they were

going not

they couldn't handle me just sitting

there and I thought you got to be

kidding me do I do this to them

because they're waiting for me to say is

your homework done did you get the

garbage out did you do the dishes get

ready for dinner you know did you your

chore they're waiting for that and I'm

just sitting there trying to watch and

play Xbox and they're going nuts because

I'm in the room and I went oh my gosh is

that what I do to my kids and yeah the

answer is yeah that is what I did to

Mikey so you're spreading your

future thinking anxiety to the kids yep

basically yeah okay so then the next

morning I get to the kiosk and I go and

I'm in a suit and I have a briefcase you

know and I'm like okay well here goes

turn around five times you know and I

did a really slow and I kept looking at

my watch like I was waiting for somebody

you know I kind of take a step and look

around like I was looking for somebody

and look at my watch and taking

another's it took me like 20 minutes to

do the whole thing and the whole time

I'm thinking somebody's looking at me

pointing a thing you're going hey come

over here look at this guy there's

somebody up in the second story of that

building over there saying come look at

this guy down here you know and it hit

me I'm not thinking about my classroom I

am present on the sidewalk right now I

am in the moment I'm not anywhere else I

am present

that's what Gary is teaching me he's

trying to teach me how to be present so

I had that figured out just in the first

few seconds of doing it so I went to

class and I practiced that day to be

present somebody come in my office I

moved things on my desk aside put my

watch where I couldn't see it and I

would pay attention to him and not be

thinking you know hurry and get out of

here because I have things to do right

and I would give him my full attention

and when I went home that night with my

wife I'd give her my full attention and

I just started practicing trying to be

present well so the week goes by it's

next Monday and Gary has changed my life

I have learned what it means to be

present and it's been an incredible week

for me learning how to be present both

at my jewelry store with my employees

and what are the consequences of that I

mean what were the what's the result of

that people were calm people were at

first they were kind of it's hard to

describe it it's almost like we'd

have a conversation these are people to

do your personas different

yeah the people who talk with me all the

time would kind of look at me like are

you okay

you know and it felt good to them to

have a conversation now you're making me

think about my relationship I'm hope I

am you know and the big one was

literally what it was with my wife

that's where I noticed the biggest

difference you know okay so that's great

Gary just changed my life mm-hmm

so now it's Monday afternoon and I

cannot wait to see what happens with my

horse this is driving me crazy because I

see no connection so I leave my watch by

the way in my bedroom because I changed

my clothes out of my suit and I get

in my cowboy clothes right and I'm out

there waiting for Gary to come and I've

got my little horse out there waiting

for him to get there and he shows up and

he's smiling at me and I said Gary

before we start I just got to tell you

thank you changed my life I go I

understand what it means to be present

and I've been practicing and it has made

a difference in how I feel and how

people feel around me and thank you now

what the heck does that have to do with

my horse and he goes walk him off the

railroad tie and I'm going there's just

no way right so I take the horse over

the railroad tie I give him the same

signal I always do and he steps straight

off it and goes right off it that's

incredible and I look at Gary and go

teach me teach me I obviously I am

missing something here you got to teach

me and that became when I really opened

my heart and my mind to him and let him

take me to levels

with natural horsemanship that I didn't

know existed and had a developer so what

is what is Gary's background with all of

this is this this is I mean this is this

goes beyond just saying I can I can

teach you horse he's an old-time cowboy

that was kind of his passion his whole

life even though you gotta get agree in

engineering and a master's degree in

engineering and went work for Motorola

and traveled the world he used to set up

plants for motor oil all over the world

so did he use these principles in

business yeah yeah it's interesting

because his wife had a PhD in psychology

and counseling and he worked with her

and she would have particular clients

that she felt like working with the

horses would help and so she'd have him

come and so in the evenings he spent a

lot of his evenings back when he was

looking for Motorola he's been a lot of

evenings working with her clients out in

their pasture with the horses and this

is all part of what they call equine

therapy yeah so his

wife brought in the therapy the

clinical aspect of it Gary brought the

understanding of the horses and they

work together as a team and then when he

retired he still was continuing to work

with her but in the mornings he would go

around and the afternoons he'd work with

people like me just helping us with our

troubled horses and you know 30 bucks a

mile and more with us yeah hey chief of

therapists she'll ever give you know

anyway and then he just started teaching

me more stuff and so now I'm working

with boys in the ward and Boy Scouts you

know and doing high adventure things in

the summer and we had a night stake high

adventure camp up in the White Mountains

and I had arranged to have 30 horses up

there I had a bunch of men that brought

their horses up and we're helping us do

this camp and but before the boys could

go on this horse right we had an awesome

horse ride that went down to the Black

River down this canyon up the other side

and I didn't like you know scout camp

you get on a horse is practically dead

and you just go in a straight line and

follow the horse in front of you right that's

not horse riding to me you know I'm one

of these boys and have an experience you

know and so I had a really neat ride

lined up through this canyon through the

river crossing the river like seven

times and up canyon walls and it was

scary some parts that were scary and

so I told the boys before you can go on

this ride you have to take my little

mini course and so I had boys coming to

my house for a month on Saturdays and in

the evenings and passing things off with

me because I thought I didn't want to

have to teach you how to ride a horse

out there on the spot I need you to have

the basics down before we win but it

gave me a chance to experiment with

these boys some of the exercises that we

were doing that Gary was teaching me and

to see how it worked with these boys and

I was amazed how consistently these

little exercises just a simple one

in fact now that I'm thinking about a

Greg it was your son okay

I forgot about that it was your son he

had missed the first class on a

Wednesday night and he come the second

class baseball and yeah I was I think it


and so I was trying to catch him up

really quick with what they were doing

and he was kind of the you know I'm a

tough guy I'm a jock and I'm not afraid

of horses and all that and yet most boys

haven't been around horses have a little

bit of fear they just don't want to

admit it and I could see that in his

eyes a little bit and so I had a horse

there and I told him to go up and then

pet the horse and oh I wouldn't you go

pet the horse and then you ask the horse

to lower his head and there's little

exercise you do to get the horse to

lower his head and as he walked up to

the horse the horse actually lifted his

head up and backed away from him so he

had to kind of trap the horse in the

corner and then he started doing a

little exercise to get the horse to put

his head down and the horse just kept

resisting it moving his head and

wiggling it back before they wouldn't

cooperate and he's looking at me going

what's that all about oh you know he did

it for this other little kid who has no

athletic ability and knowing anything

you know why isn't he doing it for me

you know and he was really confident

he was gonna be able to do it just like

that and it wasn't going well which is

perfect for me you know I'm glad it

played out this way and then I said

Shane come here you know let's talk for

a second and I said you know you walked

up there kind of bold and arrogant and

and really was it's a tough guy syndrome

you know I'm not afraid of this horse

you know I said then he sense that from

you and he backed away from me because

that was too overwhelming to him he's

like who is this guy who's coming to

take charge of me and I don't even know

who he is I says you need to get the

horse a chance to look at you and feel

you and invite you into his space and

well how do you do that as well hold

your hand out and let's just watch him

together and him he might come sniff

your hand he might not but watch his

ears and watch his eyes and he'll tell

us when you're okay to come in so and I

said and then take a big breath and let

it out let your shoulders kind of slump

a little bit you know don't you know be

humble be humble and so he did that and

held his hand out and I said okay the

horse is telling you and come in and the

horse helps still he went any pet him I

just now do the exercise and then he was

able to put his hand above the horse's

head and get him to lower the head and

do it all so just that simple little

lesson of you know how do people you

know what vibrates and yeah familiar

yeah we need someone when you walk into

a room what do people feel you know what


mom feeling you home from school or you

know or a dad one of the therapists that

I taught with at ASU I had a bunch of

professor's days you come watch me one

Saturday morning working with some boys

and they were like wow this is

incredible what you're doing here and

what it is it's the boys have these are

you gonna back up a little bit horses

don't live in the past or the future

they have in the present their feedback

is immediate what they're getting from


they reflect back immediately now a

person doesn't do that you can come up

to me and project feelings of hostility

but I'll try to ignore them and not

say anything and then after you leave

behind your back I'll say to my friend

oh he's a idiot you know you know but to

your face I would never say that mm-hmm

you know a horse will say it to your

face a horse doesn't weight a horse

gives you immediate feedback and it's

always honest the other thing that's

pretty refreshing in some ways it is

they're also very forgiving so if you

abuse them or mistreat them and lose

that trust they'll let you gain it back

in the next five minutes and they'll

forget about the fact that you

mistreated and five minutes ago as long

as now they feel what they need to feel

to trust you and so a boy can experience

real-life experiences in real time in a

real short amount of time mm-hmm and

there's the experiences you have with

people only it's condensed down and so

this this therapist got a horse I helped

him get a horse and he was using it with

his marriage and Family Therapy at night

he tottered a shoe during the day at

night he had a practice out of his house

so he had this couple come to his house

and you know he came to work the next

day and couldn't wait to tell me this

story you know he says his couples in

his office and the husband's sitting

there with his arms folded and just

closed he doesn't want to be there his

body language is my wife drugged me here

for this

marriage therapy and I don't want to be

rich or and so my buddy says to them you

know obviously you don't want to be here

so let's just cut this thing short right

now it's not gonna be good to force it

I'm not gonna charge you anything but

before you leave I'd like you to come

out back with me and me my horse

actually have a couple of words that I

gave me my horses and then you can

decide if you want to come back

next week or not so they stepped out

into the backyard and he brought one of

the horses from the stall over towards

where the man was and put the horse

about ten feet away and then he said to

the man you know go up and pet my horse

and introduce yourself to him you know

go check him out as the man walked

toward the horse horses turn and ran and

ran to the far corner of the past year

and the man looks at him like what's

that all about you know he goes you'll

see he says his hang tight anyway he got

the second horse brought the second

horse over he said listen this time I

want you to take some deep breaths I

want you to humble yourself you know

you're a little bit you come across

arrogant you come across powerful you

know and I think that horse was a little

overwhelmed by you he says what I'd like

you to do is breathe slow and calm

yourself down and hold your hand out

same thing as I did was she hold your

hand out and let the horse invite you in

and they did all that and of course the

horse invited him and he's able to pet

the horse then he brought the wife over

and then he said to the man he said you

see a horse over in the corner of the

pasture that ran and he goes yeah that's

your wife interesting now if you'd like

to come back I'd be happy to help you

guys hmm and he said goodbye to him and

that was evening and then the next

morning he comes to me and goes man that

was powerful you know just that object

lesson was so powerful that let that

husband know you're a bully you know

you're without even saying anything

you're a bowling word so you're so I

mean this is going to a point where it's

saying your body language really I guess

what is eat your attitude yeah right

that you may not even be conscious that

you're carrying around with you I've had

feedback all of us get a little bit of

feedback here and there right where I

think and I really like that you know I

don't think I consciously well you're

springing thoughts in my brain as

you say all that while all this is

happening with these horses I'm also a

disciple of a arbinger and arbinger is

a philosophy that came out of BYU

professor there had developed it and

arbinger’s really a language he created a

language and diagrams to be able to put

together arbinger

there's actually a company called


Institute and they market to large

businesses that's their main goal is to

go into big corporations and teach this

philosophy to the employees executives

and on I know I've read a book but yeah

there's Anatomy a piece is a book that

they produced leadership and self to say

that's gonna grow is the business book

that most people read and there's

another one that was put out by the

actual creator of arms are called the

bonds that make us free

you know the bonds that make us free is

kind of a name that really describes it

but this philosophy is the study of what

we call self-deception

we go through life seeing ourself a

certain way in thinking we're a certain

way but other people see us a little

differently and they well it's not

how they feel us they experience us

differently and we're so convinced that

what we see is accurate and right that

we don't recognize how we affect them is

this what do they call that the box yeah

being in the box yeah that's one of the

phrases they use so what I learned

with the horses is as I'm learning these

concept of the horses all the things I

had alert and I'm a certified are with

your instructor at this point I'm going

this is Arbinger for horses

I mean it's exact same principles the

first principle of our viewer that we

learn is there's something deeper than

behavior and we call it way of being so

I can go up to my wife and say honey you

look so pretty today here have some

flowers you know now my wife would look

at me and say what do you want okay she

wouldn't say oh thank you you're

probably not the old what do you want

okay so the behavior was giving her

flowers and telling her that she's

pretty mm-hmm my way of being is why did

I do it and there's two choices and

again our Mira created a language they

created a vocabulary mm-hmm one is I'm

responsive the other is I'm resistant so

every behavior can be done one of two

ways responsive or resistant responsive

means I see people as people meaning I

see their humanity their fears or hopes

their dreams their fears I understand

who they are resistant means I see

people as objects they're there for me

to use they're either in my way they're

an obstacle they're either vehicle for

me to get what I want or they're

irrelevant they're just not on

my radar but they're not real they don't

have feelings like I do so when I give

my wife those flowers and what I'm

really thinking in my mind is I want to

go with my buddies tomorrow morning you

know out into the mountains and go

hunting or horse riding or shooting or

whatever you know and she's got a to-do

list that she's already told me for

Saturday you know so I'm buttering her

up tonight and you know doing the dishes

and doing all these things I've never

done anything like yeah yeah right you

know she doesn't respond to the things

I'm doing she responds what she's

feeling which is you want something from

me you know and so typically she slams

that door pretty quick you know and I go

what buying flowers wasn't a good thing

yeah I was a great thing but you did it

resistantly you did it seeing her as an

object she was a vehicle you're trying

to get what you wanted and then when she

says no she becomes an obstacle and you

get mad you know whereas if you were

responsive you give her the flowers and

you tell her she's pretty because you

love her and you want her to be happy

and you want to make her day and there's

no secret motive behind it

okay we call that way of being well a

horse picks up your way of being fast

you know what are you about are you are

you trying to force me to do something

are you trying to trick me into doing

something you're trying to make me do

something or are you trying to come in

and be a partner with me are you

recognizing that I have fears and hopes

as a horse or that I want security right

and that I need security and if that

horse feels like I'm taking care of them

and I'm there for them they'll give me

everything no they'll do anything for me

anything for me now I propose that a

rebellious teenage boy if he feels like

there's that old movie Elephant Man

mm-hmm and there's a scene in there you

go to YouTube and see it cause it's just

like one of most famous scenes in movie

history where his mask in it and he's in

a train station kids are teasing him and

and his mask comes off at bad day he has

over his head comes on he has this

deformed head that was like an elephant

and people start screaming the children

are afraid they start screaming and

actually you know people think that he

did something to the children and now

the men are chasing him

you know because he's a vicious animal

and they get him trapped in this men's

bathroom with all these urinals it's

black and white you know and it's just a

gross seen at this train station he's

trapped against the wall and I can't

really exact line but he yells out I'm

not an animal I'm a man I'm not an

animal I'm a man you know they're all

staring and I mean we all have this need

to be recognized every one of us you

know whether your prison United States

or a homeless person in LA we just want

somebody to know we're real and care

about us and recognize us

we just want to be that's all just know

that I'm alive and care about me we and

some people say they don't know push you

away because they're so afraid they've

been rejected so much but that's what we

all want so a teenage boy who's smoking

weed or stealing or not doing curfew or

not going to school you know you ask him

what do you want I want you to leave me

alone get off my back you know mm-hmm

what he really wants is somebody to care

about him that's what he was now a

parent's say I love my son what are you

talking about I love my son this isn't

about love so here's a question though

on that I hear you know I've got a

couple boys so you're saying that if

there's a problem with your boy let's

say these boys here then if I'm using

the analogy of breaking the horse then

I'm going to be looking at discipline

right now I'm looking at discipline

there's a problem here if I'm looking at

the natural horsemanship then I'm

walking wanting to go into that into my

son's space right I want to go into his

space what do you learn just go into his

spaces do you mean when you say that

that could have a negative connotation

okay well looks like you're saying with

a horse what you want I want him to walk

a me in yes good a point where he's

walking me you want him to welcome you

in okay you want him to value the

relationship with you so much that he

would do anything to have that

relationship in place so one is

you've got the stick and the carrot

right and the effects are gonna be

short-term and then it's not gonna work

in the long run yeah and then the other

one is you're saying I have I have

recognized you so much and show you love

that you can trust me enough that you're

actually going to even start taking

initiative on a certain behavior and

you're going to change that behavior

because of because you want to you want

to please me because of what we have you

gather so the bond a bond between us you

know is more valuable to you than

what then creating the conflict than

anything yeah than me having fun being

with my friends getting drunk getting

high getting my way you know all that

rebellion stuff is really saying please

recognize me

you know do you care about me or not

whenever but aren't you getting that in

the same way back what about if you if

you're you know I'm looking at it from

it from a proud standpoint if I'm acting

as a father I guess I want to feel that

way too

absolutely I want you to respect me son

absolutely right I want you to recognize


right right so I'm wanting the same

thing right isn't that true and that's

why we take these boys and we teach them

this material and say this is what your

mom wants this is what your dad wants

and if you want them to be on your side

mm-hmm then let them know you're on

their side let them know you understand

what they feel what they're experiencing

what their hopes and their dreams and

their fears are and you need to get out

of the box with them instead of seeing

them as an obstacle in your life see

them as people if you remember when I

said to Gary

anytime a horse had a problem I'd say

well what's the problem and he'd always

say well you know the problem is like oh

yeah it's me mm-hmm you know well that's

what we say in our venture too so if my

son is rebelling and he's not coming in

like curfew you know he just refuses to

come in on time and I've taken away the

keys and I've taken his phone and

I'm threatening you know I'm running out

of stuff to take away right what do I do

next well doing as a behavior and he's

not responding to your behavior he's not

responding to the keys and

and those things he's responding to your

way of being and your way of being as

resistant because you see him as an

object you see him as an obstacle he's

an obstacle to you getting sleep at

night you know or being seen as a good

parent by the neighbors or people at

church you know for whatever reason now

it has I do love you love him nobody

doubts that you love him but still those

those views are selfish yeah see I love

my wife but I see her is an object all

the time you know I use her she's in my

way all the time and I'm constantly

having to check myself and go am I

resistant resistant to her humanity or

am I responsive responsive to her

humanity she resistant doesn't mean I'm

rebelling and fighting against for

example with my wife's a vehicle I'm

being really nice to her we're getting

along great

right as long as she's doing what I want

her to do you know and I'll do what she

wants me to do we use each other as

vehicles and we get along great but as

soon he says no or somebody's sick or

somebody doesn't you know cooperate then

they become an obstacle then I'm mad and

I'm upset and this isn't fair and that's

called being in the box we now see them

as an object people respond to how you

see them not to what you do because you

can do anything two ways you can do a

responsive or resistant so if my son is

not being compliant not coming in at

night the answer isn't for me to think

of something else to do it's not your

behavior yeah the answer should be to

look at me and see that's

counterintuitive what was very coward to

a lighter you know we think he's the

problem and we blame him and he needs to

get his act together and Armiger says no

you dad you need to look at you and get

your act together how do you see your

son what is he feeling from you is he

feeling that he can trust you can he

trust you or is it about you know is

your motive for him to come in at 11

o'clock because of a genuine real

concern for him and I found in my

life and I really stop and look at it

most of the time it's about me I want to

go to bed I don't to be up all night

I need him home when he let me go I'll

tell him bad things happen and at night

you know and you need to be home and I


trust these other kids and I trust you

but I don't trust them you come with all

kinds of stuff sure the bottom line is I

wanna go to bed and I need you home you

know and you got to get up at 4:00 in

the morning yeah yeah and he's over

there going this isn't about me dad you

act like it's about me but even lying it

isn't he can feel the difference he

knows mm-hmm you know he might even know

that I love him

you know do you think your dad loves you

yeah why do you think he wants you to

committee eleven o'clock I don't know

cause he doesn't trust me you know okay so

dad look inside and go why do I want him

in at 11 o'clock and if your reason is

because you care about him and it has

something really to do with him then

hold that boundary and argue teaches us

that you'll respond now it might take a

little while just like with the horse

it's a longer training process than

breaking a horse see we're too impatient

so if I take away the keys or the car I

can get complaints from right now and

that's what I want right because it's

not about him it's about me you know but

if I'm willing to be patient and do

natural horsemanship instead and take

time and build that relationship I

interviewed a bunch of boys for podcast

that we did the other day and we talked

about the phrase I don't care and how

when they finally said to their parents

I don't care how liberating it was for

them they were free you know and of

course their parents were done and it

landed the boys that a Boys Ranch

because parents didn't know what else to

do and we gotta have help you know and

they bring their boy to us thinking

maybe you can discipline him better than

we could you know well I can't I can't

discipline him better than you but what

I can do is I can practice Harbinger or

natural horsemanship better than you and

I give your son experiences with horses

so he can really understand the

principles better faster as he does it

with a horse and then we transfer it

over to people and I can do those kinds

of things and that's what we end up

doing and parents slowly figure out

that's what we're doing and then they go

wow this is powerful bottom line is I

have to look at me and my way of being

you know how do I see him and it will

take longer but then he starts to oh

that's the boys in the podcast and the

boys all said I said if you give some

advice to your parents now knowing what

you know now having meant the ranch for

a while learn what you've learned what

would you say and every one of them said

stop stop taking stuff away stop

grounding us it doesn't work you're just

making it worse what you need to do is

spend time with this building

relationship and unfortunately it should

have been done before do you find that

for example a lot of the boys that are

that end up at Arbinger with you are they

are there or is it often times that

that's the relationship they have with

their parents oh yeah so it's as much

the parent in this relationship that is

the result of the boy the way he is you

just say it like this yeah right but I

tell pyramid it's part of the picture

right I mean like you're saying I mean

it's can you build a relationship strong

enough I don't know everybody fits into

that but I tell parents when your son

comes home he'll be in a good place

50% of his success when he gets home

will be based on you being in a good

place if you learn this material and the

whole time the boys at the ranch we

start to rebuild a relationship with the

parents we invite the parents to come

that first weekend that they come and we

give them instructions you don't ask

about how schools going you don't ask

about how they're advancing those

questions are outlawed but we just want

you to be present with him enjoy him get

to know him and build that relationship

we want him to feel that you can be

trusted that he can trust you with his

life you know remember that little horse

is gonna test you in the morning to see

whether or not he can trust you to take

care of him and so parents that

means having boundaries you have to set

curfews you have to have rules because

that's part of taking care of him and

he'll rebel he'll push against them you

know I want you home 11 o'clock that's

not fair that's not fair son I know it

doesn't seem fair to you but that's the

policy at our house you have to be home

at 11 o'clock I'm not gonna talk about

taking away keys or grounding him I'm

just telling this is the rule you have

to be home at 11 o'clock there's a big

part of that why it'd be explaining why

doing it responsively

I don't even necessarily have to explain

why he already knows mm-hmm listen these

boys aren't stupid if he feels that I

love him

care about him I gotta quit using the

word love because we know you love him

if he feels that my motive is my concern

for him and that I want him to be happy

and successful and it's not about me I'm

willing to stay up all night if that's

what it takes that doesn't bother me

I'll stay up all night I just know this

is good for you you need your sleep you

have school the next day you know

whatever the case may be and I can

explain that to him and he can feel the

difference you can feel the difference

when somebody's telling you something

whether its response or resistant you

just know you just it's what we sense

way of being a horse just knows it and

you just know it if this is natural when

somebody says to you hey I really like

those shoes that you got you know that's

those are really nice you know if they

really like the shoes or if they're

trying to butter you up you can't tell

the difference you know so politicians

are mostly resist there you go there you

go so the boy knows whether or not you

really care and again he may test it

he will test it and he'll come in late

to see what you do now you may say well

there has to be consequences or he gets

away with it we get hung up on this

having control and people getting away

with things and we got to let that go

we've got to let that go to a certain

point why is that we have to have

control I am able to figure that out yet

why we're control freaks because we were

raised and people did it to us and

we have to do it to them but anyway so

yeah if he does come in late I would sit

down and say hey son you know I asked

you to be home at 11:00 you weren't home

e11 what do you think we ought to do you

know and let him come up with something

mm-hmm the biggest consequence these

boys get for disobedience and rebellion

is they don't like themselves that's the

biggest consequence we can't do anything

greater now so if my son comes in late

you know from curfew and I'm responsive

I sit down son what's going on

you know first off what happened he may

have a legitimate reason you know I

was one of those parents that my son too

you know a very intelligent kid but he

just processes things a little slower

than I do and so I would ask him a

question what were you thinking yeah

that's right you weren't thinking and

then I jump all over him okay well he

and I had some therapy together after

some experiences that we had and the

therapist looked at me and said would

you shut up for a minute

when you ask him a question wait and let

him answer mm-hmm

oh my goodness that made a world of

difference I found out the kid had

answers and he had explanations and most

of them were legitimate but I never gave

him a chance because I just jumped right

in yeah so son what do we do about you

coming in late and just wait and let him

come up with it let him think about it

he'll come up with a consequence okay

let's do that if he says well I should

give you the car key okay then give me

the car key and then let's move forward

and if he knows I care about him it's

gonna make a big dear son let me share

another story that was very impactful

for me yeah I know this material but it

doesn't mean I always live it you know

I'm still a person who messes up my

youngest son was raised on the boys


mm-hmm he moved there in this 13 years

old and he spent the first year just

with me down there and he was one of the

boys on the ranch we kind of used him

when we first got started we weren't we

didn't have a lot of boys and we have

rules that you can't ever be alone with

a boy there have to be you know too deep

leadership type stuff and so we would

use him as a pawn and use him to be

that second person when we needed him in

places he never knew that's what we were

doing and guess we were using him as an

object but anyway and then as well there

was a parent week and his mom came down

and he was showing off to his mom and he

and I were horse racing and he ran into

a fence and broke his leg and ended up

going back up to Gilbert for six weeks

and when he came back down I'd had like

eight boys come into the ranch and he

didn't know him and all some things had

changed he wasn't quite as familiar with

everybody as he was before and so at

that point his relationship with the

boys was a little different and he was

over an outsider yeah he was now kind of

an outsider and living at the ranch

wasn't so cool anymore so over the next

few years now my wife he ended up moving

down and but for the next few years you

know he did only like his life and there

was one boy that he got close to and it

was a boy that I was close to also and

this boy was getting ready to go home I

was doing fairly well he had a home

visit the home visit had a bad

experience and his dad said one of the

cardinal phrases you never say he said

you haven't changed at all you don't say

it to a kid who's been working so hard

you know to change and he slips up one

little thing and you haven't changed at


and he couldn't get that out of his head

he came back to the ranch very upset and

depressed and before we really had a

chance to process it he hung himself and

we had a suicide there on the ranch long

and as the hardest day I ever

experienced on the ranch and to this day

I'm very close to the family and we've

been in contact and on the anniversary

of his death they come visit and we

spent time together but I was so busy

that day

protecting the boys and taking care of

them and getting help and having people

come in to help and keeping them away

from the crime scene because the police

were down there with tape all over the

place but I forgot about my son and he

actually went down and saw the body and

it was kind of gruesome mm-hmm and you

know like much later we've learned it

into being one of those PTSD type

experiences well and I was scheduled to

go on a final ride with some boys with

her horse

they were graduating we were taking that

horse of the mountains for that last

testing period with their horse to see

how well their horse trusts them and

stuff and kind of a neat experience to

end their journey at the ranch and I

was always the one that went on the

final rides and the boys liked me to go

and I liked to go and was a big deal and

I had got the therapist to approve me

taking my son with us on the final ride

because I didn't want to leave him alone

we just had learned that he's addicted

to painkillers and I just needed to be

with him and watch him and keep an eye

on him till we could figure out what we

were gonna do and try to get him into

this program and so I said trivalent

when you go on this ride with us he goes

I don't want to go I'm not going I said

I really need you to come and go so that

I can keep an eye on you said I'm not

going I'm not going well the morning of

the ride came and he got up and I was at

home and he was what are you doing here

and I said I'm not going well you mean

you're not going I said I'm staying here

with you

and that was the first thing that just

shocked him and in his mind he's going

why are you staying here with me and he

didn't trust me mm-hmm

you know what's your motive are you

trying to trick me you know are you

gonna tie me up and take me to this

program you know

what square he was 18 years old at this

point by the way and anyway I just said

no I need to be here with you and so he

was shocked that I gave up a final ride

to spend with him so that was the first

indication maybe my dad really does care

about me but he still wasn't sure you

know so he still tests me a little bit

more and so now we're going to this

program and we're doing group therapy

together with other parents and boys and

there were several times we had classes

together and then we separate and I

would be with parents and he would be a

boys and then I would leave he'd be

there a lot more than I was there and

but I was there four days a week and

participating with them and anyway one

point I was asking myself because his

attitude stunk you know he just didn't

want to change mm-hmm and so I'm

going okay what do I need to do now do

is a behavior mm-hmm and as soon as I

said it myself is that Ron he's not

responding to what you do he's gonna

respond to your way of being so how do

you see him well I seem as immature I

seem as rebellious he really hurt his

mom he took enough his mom's medicine

that she went through some real pain and

withdrawals and he did that to his mom

and that upset me and I guess I'm kind

of mad at him and I realized that I was

resistant with him that he was an

obstacle to me and also how does it look

here's a guy who runs a program for boys

that are struggling and his own son is a

mess you know yeah how could he do that

to you yeah and I'm going man I can't

help him mm-hmm

until I see him differently and I spent

a couple weeks on my knees reading

scriptures trying to I'm gonna get

emotional on you here trying to see him

the way Lord saw him mm-hmm I knew he

was God stuff you know but what does

that really mean you know and the fact

that the Savior would atone for him and

loved him that much and what am I

willing to do and why the Savior did it

for no other reason than just love

there's no nothing tied to it

and if I have that faith then I hang in

there and then I see the results and I

become more convinced wow this is the

way to do things

this is it's actually the gospel in

action it really is


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