Ron Searle does a masterful job of guiding us through our relationship with our sons, especially those that are difficult. He shows how to make the relationship of your son with you, the most important thing to your child. More important than making bad decisions and rebelling. Ron also shows how these principles apply to a marriage relationship.
What's incredible, is how this shows up in Natural Horsemanship and the relationship of trust between a horse and its leader. The stories are amazing and if you are a parent or a spouse, you will learn something invaluable through this episode.
Ron Searle is the owner of Arivaca Boys Ranch in Arivaca, Arizona. A ranch that takes in troubled boys and teaches them how to develop relationships of trust through the process of Natural Horsemanship also known as Equine Therapy, mixed with the Arbinger program.
working with kids you know you break a
teenager in or do you raise a teenager
okay but as you break a horse you know
you get on you buck them out you know
you try to outlast the horse
[Music]
was anything that I ever planned it
wasn't on my life's goals list if we go
back
well first off I taught Elias seminary
full-time for 18 years and then I
taught at ASU at the Institute for 10
years and teachers don't make a lot of
money so you're involved with the youth
offer quite yeah yeah I've worked with
youth for over 40 years and then of
course in church I was always in young
men's groups and in charge of working
with youth and my favorite was
always that 14 to 18 age group because
we could go and have high adventure and
be up in the mountains Cherie and do fun
things yeah that's the best calling yeah
I could tell my wife you know I have to
buy this new toy because I'm serving the
Lord yeah exactly
I need to buy that son she'd give me
permission to so I was a bit of a
workaholic I would I would teach all day
and because teacher didn't make a lot of
money I always had to have something on
this side and when I was in college I'd
sold diamonds out of a briefcase and
I got to where I was selling them to
jewelry stores and things like that when
I became a teacher I slowly changed that
business into selling wholesale to
public and we meet people in an office
and Selma diamond of course then
they needed a ring or something to put
it in and next thing I knew I actually
had a jewelry store and before long I
had five employees and had a jewelry
store going I also had a couple rental
properties and so I found myself just
working all the time and what time I
wasn't working I'm trying to help my
wife raise our eight children of course
we have any children the whole time but
it was building still it's going to ball
games and never goes well on certs and
doing all that stuff and I remember
looking at my wife one day hey I've got
to do something fun I can't kiss work
all the time I need to unstring the bow
a little bit here and we knew when
we got married that someday we want to
have horses I had had horses when I was
a child she grew up
Ranger where did you grow up in Oregon
is where I lived when I had horses my
6th grade through eighth grade years we
lived in Ontario Oregon out in the
country on the middle potato fields and
onion fields and the sugar beet fill
does the East Side Oregon yeah right on
the Idaho border right along the Snake
River eyes
half mile from the Snake River and
anyway so I and I always do I want to
have horses someday and so I finally
said to my wife I'm gonna go get a horse
I know we can't afford every time we
talked about getting a horse you know we
needed braces for a child or something
like that and so I treated a diamond
ring out of my store to a lady for this
horse and took the horse home the horse
was wild hard to catch and I thought
that'd be fun I'll learn how to train a
horse and I didn't know anything about
training horses I there's a kid I just
rode you know I just got on and rode
nobody taught you to do anything you
just did it and so now I had this horse
that was a big two-year-old
Quarter Horse thoroughbred cross and she
was tall and big and she wouldn't
face me and when I step into the stall
she just turned her butt to me she'd
wanting to do with me and I was getting
frustrated and I get to I could get
a halter on or I'd get her out in my
back area we bought an acre lot and
build a custom home and I was set up for
horses anyway I tried to get on her and
she start bucking and over that next
three months she broke five of my bones
and I decided I needed help just falling
off I don't like to use the word fall
okay use the word that I was bucked off
your bucked off my wife would go to
church and people say what happened to
Ron because I have a cast on you know oh
he fell off the horse and no it upset
because I don't fall off horses yeah
it's kind of I've got I've got a study
group not a book club there you go yes
that's right anyway so I decide I need
some help and at that point I was
teaching at ASU I had a student in one
of my classes course nobody's asking
what'd you do to your arm you know I had
a cast on and I told him I got
bucked off and this gal says we'll let
me come out and help you I'm good with
horses and I said please come help me
because I'm gonna get rid of this horse
I can't ride her and so she came in on a
Saturday and she started talking about
natural horsemanship and I didn't have a
clue what she was talking about natural
financial horsemanship and apparently in
the horse world you know we always
believe and you see on TV that when you
break a horse and that's an interesting
word that you break a horse and I'll
make a connection here in a while too
you know raising kids and working with
kids you know you break a teenager you
know do you raise a teenager
okay but as you break a horse you get on
your buck amount you know you try to
outlast the horse and if the horse bucks
you off what do you do you get right
back on right and eventually the horse
gives in the more supply Lisa comes to
you and submits is it's fine I can't get
you off of me I'll learn to live with
you just have to be more persistent the
more persistent in the horse and the
horse is gonna try to hurt you if they
can to get you off and if you win then
you break the horse and then you put a
heavy bit in its mouth that applies
pressure and maybe use Spurs maybe a
little crop I'll whip and you're gonna
get compliance from that horse and if
they don't do what you want then you
know you know I'm not saying you whip
them but you whack them with that little
crop on the rear end or you pull on the
bit that inflicts pain mm-hmm you know
if they don't stop you can click more
pain until they stop and so the
horse learns to submit so that they
don't experience pain and more
punishment okay okay well natural
horsemanship is a completely different
approach natural horsemanship if done
right a horse will never buck the
theory is to come into the horse's
world and to think like a horse thinks
horses are a herd animal they're an
animal of prey so and we're predators
and so we're their natural enemy now
most of us see domestic horses in barns
and pastures and they're not afraid of
us but if you were to deal with a wild
horse they want nothing to do with you
they'll do anything they can to escape
get away from you and if you trap them
in a corner they'll kick they'll bite
they'll do whatever because you're the
enemy mm-hmm
well with natural horsemanship you want
to enter into the herd as part of their
social herd hmm and if you watch a herd
of horses there's a hierarchy and
there's always going to be an alpha
horse that is in charge and it's always
going to be a mare people think the
stallion is in charge and very seldom is
a stallion in charge occasionally you
know one might be but generally it's
going to be a mare an old mare that's in
charge and her job is to take care of
the herd two major Arctic yep that's
exactly what it is and her job is to
make sure they have food and water and
protection and she's on duty all day to
keep the herd safe and so each morning
as the herd wakes up and starts to move
you know a younger horse will come up to
the Alpha mare and maybe try to steal
her food and it's all done with body
language and pressure so they'll kind of
move into her space you know somebody
gets too close to you to talk to you how
you kind of back away
you can feel they're just a little too
close well that's real and so a horse
kind of moves into the other horses
space and if that horse backs away then
the horse that's left there is the Alpha
and so I'm a young horse and I go up to
the mayor and I kind of move into her
space to get the food and she there
shows her teeth or puts her ears back or
kicks at me and if I back off she stays
the Alpha if she backs off I become the
Alpha and the truth is I don't want to
be the Alpha I want her to be the Alpha
I want to eat and play and enjoy the day
and let her take care of the herd but if
she backs away now I have to take care
of the herd so I actually am looking for
her to be the leader I want to find a
leader that I can trust that'll take
care of me but when I wake up in the
morning my life's on the line and I'm
gonna test that mare to make sure she's
still capable and willing to be in
charge if she's not I will take charge
again just a little interesting side note
so down at the Boys Ranch we have
parents come visit on the weekends and
we'll do horse rides and parents
sometimes gonna been on a horse before
and we'll say them no this horse is
gonna test you and try to turn around
and go back to the barn you know as
we're going off on the ride and if you
don't take charge and say no we're going
this way
then she knows she's in charge and if
she's in charge you're going back to the
barn but if you'll take charge she'll
actually say oh good I'm safe this
person knows what they're doing
interesting and now she's willing to go
on the ride with you and do what you
wanted so is the horse in that position
is it it's not necessarily all about the
competition between you and the horse
it's a matter of the horse wanting to
know what role it plays exactly and
wanting somebody else to be the leader
so do they want more for someone else to
be the leaders so it's just more of
a test yes to make sure you're the
leader yes then hey I want to be the
leader and I'm a complete exactly
conflict was exactly what I want to be
safe mm-hm and know that somebody's
taking care of me so that I can eat and
play and enjoy the day you know I don't
want to be worried about bears coming
and Cougars coming in coyotes coming and
I want somebody else to worry about that
and take care of me so they were looking
for a leader now what we want to do is
we want to inject ourselves into the
herd and we want to become that alpha
that that leader and so in the basics of
natural horsemanship the idea is we're
going to enter into their natural world
you know we're going to learn their
language which is body language pressure
release you know I can stand next to a
horse and at first I might take my
hand and push on their hip and ask them
to give to that pressure and step over
to the side away from my hand
eventually I can just hold my hand next
to their hip and not even touch them and
they'll know that I'm asking them to
step over so when I'm riding a horse and
I need them to move their back hip to
the left to the right I can get to the
point where I just kind of tilt my
pelvis and move my leg a little bit and
they'll know that I need them to move
their hip over and that a little bit of
pressure sends the signal and because
they want to comply we have a
partnership they'll move that hip and I
and I kind of skipped a step in there so
so the first step is we want to
establish ourselves as the alpha we want
that horse to learn that they can trust
us and that we'll be in charge and we do
that by controlling their feet by moving
them so we get into a round pin and we
use a little pressure on their rear end
to make them start to run in a circle
and then we step in from use a little
pressure towards their head to get them
to turn and go the other direction and
by just using our body language we start
to control where they move around in
that round pin we move them back and
forth we get to where we can control
their speed you know have them walk slow
we can get them to gallop and the more
we control their direction their speed
and what they're doing the more they're
saying okay this person is capable of
being in charge of me and if you do it
right you finally kind of stop putting
pressure on them they'll actually turn
and walk to you and come up to you
basically saying I want to be with you I
don't want to be close to you I trust
you you're my safety zone I'm looking to
you for safety interesting so this girl
introduced me to this concept because
here I had this horse that you want me
to do
so we started doing those exercises and
sure enough it worked
within an hour I had the source
following me around like a little puppy
and I'm like oh my did an hour an hour
yeah and three months of being beat up
and breaking bones and within an hour
she had that horse following me around I
said you know what I've got to learn
more about this natural horsemanship and
so I hired a couple ladies that came and
taught me more about natural
horsemanship and how to train a horse
using it and like I say you enter
into their world you learn to
communicate the way they communicate and
these are all really good parenting tips
and by the way that we now teach to
parents you know we'll use a horse as
the example but you know instead of
forcing my teenage son to speak my
language and to think the way I think
I've got to enter into their herd into
their mindset into their world and
remember what I would like to be 14 or
15 years old you know and
communicate on the level that they're on
otherwise but you're but you're talking
to the boys though and so you're saying
that the boys need to be I mean so for
the parents and for the boys it's the
same thing it's the same every
relationship you have if I want to have
relationship with you and we want well I
again with the horse the first step is I
develop myself as the Alpha okay so that
they look to me as the leader but
there's even a deeper step and that is
forming a partnership where I recognize
that horses ability to be part of the
decision-making process so if I ask a
horse to turn to the right I don't want
him just to comply because I'm the boss
I want them to comply because they want
to do what I want to do turn to the
right mm-hmm and if we get to that stage
really I like to do is turn my head to
the right and when they feel that
they'll go oh he's thinking go right
well that's what I want to do then if
that's what he wants to do so it differs
there obviously is if you're breaking
the horse you're looking for a
partnership with a natural
horsemanship yes as compared to horsey I
don't want to do this because I don't
want the pain right yeah
it's a completely different experience
it takes longer it takes more patience
and there's a lot more frustration along
the way is there is there more
compliance with that of
yeah oh yeah I mean obviously you're
gonna have a better relationship with a
horse if you're doing it the way you're
described yeah but is there is there
more compliance by the horse you don't
even use the word compliance because now
it's were one okay so I'm sitting on the
horse and they're so connected to me and
I'm so connected to them that you know
we're following a little herd of cows
and a little steer breaks off to the
right and I look at that steer that's
breaking off and as I look the horse is
already moving to that calf to bring it
back into the herd and I mean we're we
work in unison I don't have to think
okay we're gonna go get that calf I just
have to look over then we're doing it
it's this simultaneous it's like what
people call a horse whispering and they
think that our brains are connected you
know but it really isn't it's just them
feeling my body sending signals and
then being used to me and knowing what I
want and what we're gonna do and
they want to be part of that partnership
and so they're paying attention to me so
it'd be nice you know if I just looked
at my son's bed clean his room anything
you know that we laughs but it happens
it's not quite like that what happens
instead is he sees his room getting
messy and he says you know my mom or dad
would really like this maybe the thought
just goes through his head are they all
cleaning you don't have to ask him to
clean his room he just keeps her clean
because he knows that's important to you
and the relationship is important to him
and he wants to clean the room he wants
to clean the room so you're
talking about a complete change
Oh in somebody not just saying that I'm
because that's a
completely different person it sounds
like it is as compared to well I'm gonna
do this because I have to when I'm gonna
change this behavior when I first
started looking at doing programs I
study two other programs and most
programs out there what we call behavior
modification that's the same as breaking
a horse you know we're gonna make these
boys line up in a straight line if you
step out of line then you don't get a
have dessert tonight you know we're
gonna make you do these chores if your
room isn't clean your bed isn't made a
certain way then you're gonna lose these
privileges and boys learn either to
comply with what you ask or the
punishment is gonna come and typically
boys are in the program have got to the
point when the punishment is dished
they say I don't care you know that's
their self-defense making it is not to
care take away everything I don't care
you know ground it because then you got
nothing yeah end parents have no control
over them in that point parents are like
ah we have no control what do we do and
they end up shipping their boy off to a
program somewhere to get some help and
then those programs oftentimes are what
we call behavior modification and they
found a way to structure things in such
a way that that boy will comply
eventually otherwise he's stuck there
forever you know he eventually doesn't
he just want to be the program forever
he wants to go home get back to his
friends so he will comply but what
happens as soon as he's got that heavy
foot away from that's hanging over him
once it's gone what happens well he
just reverts back to who he was and
I saw that as I was studying these
programs and said I don't want to
develop a program like that you know I
need internal heart change so back to
the horses and then I'll share a couple
of stories these ladies started teaching
me and I got to the point where I knew
more than they did
I was watching videos and reading and
and we've started to repeat the same
lessons over and over again and I
very tactfully one day said to him you
know I'm ready to go to the next level
is there another level here you know and
and that was really all they had and
women said you know there's a man his
name is Gary he was a 67 year old
Motorola executive that had retired and
in the Gilbert area he lived in Gilbert
he would go around and help people that
had trouble with their horses and he
charged like 30 bucks an hour and I paid
$20 for 30 minutes for my kids piano
lessons you know that's 40 bucks an hour
and I thought I can do that you know so
I hired him and Gary started taking me
to a level I didn't know existed
he took me past that getting the horse
to want to comply to this idea of having
a partnership of having the horse being
an equal in the decision-making process
with me honoring their ability to
choose also and how when I started
honoring that horses ability I wasn't
just do what I say all the time but it
was me listening to them which you can
listen to them they can tell you what
they need
the partnership got deeper and stronger
and then when we were riding in the
hills
it's hard to describe it you have to
experience it it's like you're one with
this horse and you could be hanging off
a cliff and there's no panic you know
because you're one and you're working
together to get your balance and get
back on the side of the hill or order
you're crossing a river and you hit a
deep spot I'll send you drop in the
water up to your chest you know the
horse really has his nose above the
water but nobody panics everybody's calm
and it's a cool feeling when you have
that kind of relationship with the horse
and again you know there's situations in
families with people we have crisis and
things come up and wouldn't it be neat
if everybody's calm and working together
to the same goal and thinking the
same and well so Gary kept delving into
my family he never met my wife and kids
but he'd say things like you know Ron
I'll bet you drive your wife crazy and I
what are you talking about because I'm
just well I think most people tell you
that yeah they do
he says I'm watch what you're doing this
horse I'm seeing how this horse responds
to you he says I can just imagine what
your wife does
you know like Gary this horse of my wife
it's like two different things I don't
know how you'd make that comparison and
anytime I would have a problem with my
horse that wasn't doing what I would ask
or would balk at something or struggle
he'd say well you know what the problem
is don't you and I said yeah it's me
right and he'd say yeah it's you it's
not the horse the horse knows everything
the horse learned how to do everything
when it was a baby it's mom taught him
how to walk backwards and jump and turn
and spin and what we call you
know slide stop or disengages hip to the
left you know all that stuff it learned
as a baby the question is does it know
that's what you're asking and doesn't
want to do it and does it feel trusts
you enough to do hard things and he
kept making this comparison to my kids
and finally one day I kind of called him
out and said I don't see how you're
making this connection and so I'll share
this one story that just kind of changed
my life he said I'm gonna show you how
this horse affects your life how you
affect your wife with this horse but
you're you have to promise me you'll do
what I'm gonna ask you to do before I
tell you what it is because if I tell
you
first you won't do it and I looked at
him like I don't know he says do you
trust me or not and I okay fine I'll do
it
so he asked me about my teaching at ASU
where I parked and at that time our the
Institute building was under
construction and so we were teaching on
at clap on classrooms on campus and
sorry parking a parking structure and
I'd walked 20 minutes to get to my first
class and he'd asked me what time I woke
up in the morning at 4 o'clock you know
what do you do I said why get in the
shower what are you thinking about in
the shower I said well I'm thinking
about my class my first class I'm
already going through my material and
what I'm gonna do and he says ok you
park your car you're walking across
campus here to your class what do you
think advises well I'm not in the
classroom I'm already planning my day
and he goes so what I'm hearing you say
Ron is that you kind of live in the
future you're always thinking about
what's coming next you're always running
ahead and I said yeah I guess and he
says I've noticed that he says cause when
you're with me you're always looking at
your watch really and he goes yeah he
says you think your watch constantly
with me because you have something after
we're done don't we Tony you and I go
yeah I do and he says yeah you're always
living ahead you're never 100% with me
and you're never hundred-percent with
your horse you know horses don't know
past and future they only know the
present that's when the gifts God gave
them they live in the present that's all
they know and so if you live in the past
we call that depression usually and
horse doesn't know what to do with those
kinds of feelings when they feel them
from you because when you start
to develop the kind of relationships
we're talking over the horse they're
feeling what you're feeling and if you
live in the future usually you have
anxiety and a horse doesn't know how to
deal with anxiety and there's I've never
thought of that sort so though so he's
he's comparing depression to your past
so he dwells on a passion what is
depression
sure I mean whittling on your past and
anxiety to the future is that's very
interesting yeah and a horse doesn't
know those emotions horse only lives in
the present and so if you're a person
who lives in one of those other two
places your horse doesn't know how to
deal with it and they're frustrated they
can't trust you they don't have that
they can't connect with you 100% because
something's not right and you're never
going to get that hundred percent
partnership connection you'll get the
compliance stage
horsemanship but you're not going to get
to the partner stage and that's what I
was lacking was that partner stage so he
says here's what I want you to do well
let me get a 1 year old Colt that I
couldn't get to back off of a railroad
tie my backyard was set up so that when
the irrigation water came in I had an
outside edge with two railroad ties
stacked on top of each other and then
dirt where I could keep my horse trailer
and my stalls were up there and the hay
was up there so they wouldn't get wet in
the irrigation and so I was trying to
teach this colt to back off of the
railroad tie to step off it backwards so
that when we were ready to work in a
trailer he would step out of the trailer
and wouldn't be afraid to step backward
they can't see straight behind him and
so to step backwards is stepping into
the unknown and they're scared but if
they trust you and you ask him to step
backwards into the dark they'll do it
mm-hmm
if they don't trust you and they won't
do it and you often hear people about
here people trying to get a horse in a
trailer for example you know and you see
people out there beating the horse
trying to get him in
in fact this horse that broke my bones
the first couple times I tried to get
her in a trailer she sat down like a dog
and would not get in the trailer and we
had whips we were whacking her and
hitting her and pulling on her and
pushing on her and she would not get in
the trailer well that's no way to have
fun of the worse and have a partnership
what you want is to be able to say hey
I'd like you to walk into that trailer
and point where you wanted to go ahead
and just walk in willingly and because
they know you would never send them
somewhere that would hurt them they
trust you mm-hmm and that's what you
want well so I had this Colt and he
wouldn't back off the wrote I I said
Gary I don't get it he trusts me walking
over plastic walking over water these
are things are usually scary for a horse
mhm I do all those things and he does
him just fine but when I have him go
backwards off the railroad tie he won't
do it and Gary looks at me and says you
know why right and I said yeah me I get
it but what and he says you don't go
backwards run he says you are always
moving forward and you're always ahead
and the horse can't handle it inches and
I don't think your wife can handle it
either and I go there you go bringing my
wife into this again you know and then I
started thinking about in the morning I
would wake up way early er than my wife
and I'd move around the bedroom getting
ready and I try to be quiet right I'm in
the dark one of my dresser and grabbing
this and grabbing that and very often I
hear this voice in the dark slow down
just hold still and like what I'm not
doing anything I'm being quiet but just
my movement in the bedroom was
irritating my wife that the energy of
that I was creating it was making it
impossible her to sleep and so when he
said that that went through my mind
mm-hmm okay so Gary what does he want me
to do he said for the next week don't
touch your horse you can feed him and
that is but you can't work with him when
you get out of your truck and you walk
across campus I want you to stop
somewhere on campus where they're
students he says where would that be and
I said well there's a little kiosk that
serves coffee in the morning and there's
you know a hundred kids there because I
want you to stop at that kiosk I want
you to turn around backwards five times
and then I want you pick something 20
feet away like a flower bed or a garbage
can and I want you to walk backwards to
it and when you get to it I once you go
around it backwards five times then come
backwards where you started then I want
you to unwind and then go to class and
if you'll do that for the next five days
so this was Monday afternoon he says if
you'll do Tuesday through Friday and
then next Monday morning when I come
Monday afternoon that horse will back
off that railroad tie come on that's
what I said I said no way and he said
you promised you'd do it I said okay I
promised but I'm going there is no
connection here there's no way so you
and I made a fool yourself at four of
these hundred kids I figured out in 30
seconds what he was doing to me so I get
to the kiosk that next morning Tuesday
morning hello first of all any back up
so he leaves and I go in the house and
I'm thinking do I really affect my
family like that and my boys are
downstairs it's dinnertime right and my
boys are downstairs playing Xbox and so
I walked down the stairs quietly but
they can hear me coming and I hear I'm
whispering dad's coming they know my
walk they notice what I sound like
I come down hi boys you know I did I sit
in a recliner and I just sit there and
start watching him and they keep looking
at me going what do you want I know
nothing I'm just watching you well what
do you want nothing I'm just they were
going not
they couldn't handle me just sitting
there and I thought you got to be
kidding me do I do this to them
because they're waiting for me to say is
your homework done did you get the
garbage out did you do the dishes get
ready for dinner you know did you your
chore they're waiting for that and I'm
just sitting there trying to watch and
play Xbox and they're going nuts because
I'm in the room and I went oh my gosh is
that what I do to my kids and yeah the
answer is yeah that is what I did to
Mikey so you're spreading your
future thinking anxiety to the kids yep
basically yeah okay so then the next
morning I get to the kiosk and I go and
I'm in a suit and I have a briefcase you
know and I'm like okay well here goes
turn around five times you know and I
did a really slow and I kept looking at
my watch like I was waiting for somebody
you know I kind of take a step and look
around like I was looking for somebody
and look at my watch and taking
another's it took me like 20 minutes to
do the whole thing and the whole time
I'm thinking somebody's looking at me
pointing a thing you're going hey come
over here look at this guy there's
somebody up in the second story of that
building over there saying come look at
this guy down here you know and it hit
me I'm not thinking about my classroom I
am present on the sidewalk right now I
am in the moment I'm not anywhere else I
am present
that's what Gary is teaching me he's
trying to teach me how to be present so
I had that figured out just in the first
few seconds of doing it so I went to
class and I practiced that day to be
present somebody come in my office I
moved things on my desk aside put my
watch where I couldn't see it and I
would pay attention to him and not be
thinking you know hurry and get out of
here because I have things to do right
and I would give him my full attention
and when I went home that night with my
wife I'd give her my full attention and
I just started practicing trying to be
present well so the week goes by it's
next Monday and Gary has changed my life
I have learned what it means to be
present and it's been an incredible week
for me learning how to be present both
at my jewelry store with my employees
and what are the consequences of that I
mean what were the what's the result of
that people were calm people were at
first they were kind of it's hard to
describe it it's almost like we'd
have a conversation these are people to
do your personas different
yeah the people who talk with me all the
time would kind of look at me like are
you okay
you know and it felt good to them to
have a conversation now you're making me
think about my relationship I'm hope I
am you know and the big one was
literally what it was with my wife
that's where I noticed the biggest
difference you know okay so that's great
Gary just changed my life mm-hmm
so now it's Monday afternoon and I
cannot wait to see what happens with my
horse this is driving me crazy because I
see no connection so I leave my watch by
the way in my bedroom because I changed
my clothes out of my suit and I get
in my cowboy clothes right and I'm out
there waiting for Gary to come and I've
got my little horse out there waiting
for him to get there and he shows up and
he's smiling at me and I said Gary
before we start I just got to tell you
thank you changed my life I go I
understand what it means to be present
and I've been practicing and it has made
a difference in how I feel and how
people feel around me and thank you now
what the heck does that have to do with
my horse and he goes walk him off the
railroad tie and I'm going there's just
no way right so I take the horse over
the railroad tie I give him the same
signal I always do and he steps straight
off it and goes right off it that's
incredible and I look at Gary and go
teach me teach me I obviously I am
missing something here you got to teach
me and that became when I really opened
my heart and my mind to him and let him
take me to levels
with natural horsemanship that I didn't
know existed and had a developer so what
is what is Gary's background with all of
this is this this is I mean this is this
goes beyond just saying I can I can
teach you horse he's an old-time cowboy
that was kind of his passion his whole
life even though you gotta get agree in
engineering and a master's degree in
engineering and went work for Motorola
and traveled the world he used to set up
plants for motor oil all over the world
so did he use these principles in
business yeah yeah it's interesting
because his wife had a PhD in psychology
and counseling and he worked with her
and she would have particular clients
that she felt like working with the
horses would help and so she'd have him
come and so in the evenings he spent a
lot of his evenings back when he was
looking for Motorola he's been a lot of
evenings working with her clients out in
their pasture with the horses and this
is all part of what they call equine
therapy yeah so his
wife brought in the therapy the
clinical aspect of it Gary brought the
understanding of the horses and they
work together as a team and then when he
retired he still was continuing to work
with her but in the mornings he would go
around and the afternoons he'd work with
people like me just helping us with our
troubled horses and you know 30 bucks a
mile and more with us yeah hey chief of
therapists she'll ever give you know
anyway and then he just started teaching
me more stuff and so now I'm working
with boys in the ward and Boy Scouts you
know and doing high adventure things in
the summer and we had a night stake high
adventure camp up in the White Mountains
and I had arranged to have 30 horses up
there I had a bunch of men that brought
their horses up and we're helping us do
this camp and but before the boys could
go on this horse right we had an awesome
horse ride that went down to the Black
River down this canyon up the other side
and I didn't like you know scout camp
you get on a horse is practically dead
and you just go in a straight line and
follow the horse in front of you right that's
not horse riding to me you know I'm one
of these boys and have an experience you
know and so I had a really neat ride
lined up through this canyon through the
river crossing the river like seven
times and up canyon walls and it was
scary some parts that were scary and
so I told the boys before you can go on
this ride you have to take my little
mini course and so I had boys coming to
my house for a month on Saturdays and in
the evenings and passing things off with
me because I thought I didn't want to
have to teach you how to ride a horse
out there on the spot I need you to have
the basics down before we win but it
gave me a chance to experiment with
these boys some of the exercises that we
were doing that Gary was teaching me and
to see how it worked with these boys and
I was amazed how consistently these
little exercises just a simple one
in fact now that I'm thinking about a
Greg it was your son okay
I forgot about that it was your son he
had missed the first class on a
Wednesday night and he come the second
class baseball and yeah I was I think it
was
and so I was trying to catch him up
really quick with what they were doing
and he was kind of the you know I'm a
tough guy I'm a jock and I'm not afraid
of horses and all that and yet most boys
haven't been around horses have a little
bit of fear they just don't want to
admit it and I could see that in his
eyes a little bit and so I had a horse
there and I told him to go up and then
pet the horse and oh I wouldn't you go
pet the horse and then you ask the horse
to lower his head and there's little
exercise you do to get the horse to
lower his head and as he walked up to
the horse the horse actually lifted his
head up and backed away from him so he
had to kind of trap the horse in the
corner and then he started doing a
little exercise to get the horse to put
his head down and the horse just kept
resisting it moving his head and
wiggling it back before they wouldn't
cooperate and he's looking at me going
what's that all about oh you know he did
it for this other little kid who has no
athletic ability and knowing anything
you know why isn't he doing it for me
you know and he was really confident
he was gonna be able to do it just like
that and it wasn't going well which is
perfect for me you know I'm glad it
played out this way and then I said
Shane come here you know let's talk for
a second and I said you know you walked
up there kind of bold and arrogant and
and really was it's a tough guy syndrome
you know I'm not afraid of this horse
you know I said then he sense that from
you and he backed away from me because
that was too overwhelming to him he's
like who is this guy who's coming to
take charge of me and I don't even know
who he is I says you need to get the
horse a chance to look at you and feel
you and invite you into his space and
well how do you do that as well hold
your hand out and let's just watch him
together and him he might come sniff
your hand he might not but watch his
ears and watch his eyes and he'll tell
us when you're okay to come in so and I
said and then take a big breath and let
it out let your shoulders kind of slump
a little bit you know don't you know be
humble be humble and so he did that and
held his hand out and I said okay the
horse is telling you and come in and the
horse helps still he went any pet him I
just now do the exercise and then he was
able to put his hand above the horse's
head and get him to lower the head and
do it all so just that simple little
lesson of you know how do people you
know what vibrates and yeah familiar
yeah we need someone when you walk into
a room what do people feel you know what
did
mom feeling you home from school or you
know or a dad one of the therapists that
I taught with at ASU I had a bunch of
professor's days you come watch me one
Saturday morning working with some boys
and they were like wow this is
incredible what you're doing here and
what it is it's the boys have these are
you gonna back up a little bit horses
don't live in the past or the future
they have in the present their feedback
is immediate what they're getting from
you
they reflect back immediately now a
person doesn't do that you can come up
to me and project feelings of hostility
but I'll try to ignore them and not
say anything and then after you leave
behind your back I'll say to my friend
oh he's a idiot you know you know but to
your face I would never say that mm-hmm
you know a horse will say it to your
face a horse doesn't weight a horse
gives you immediate feedback and it's
always honest the other thing that's
pretty refreshing in some ways it is
they're also very forgiving so if you
abuse them or mistreat them and lose
that trust they'll let you gain it back
in the next five minutes and they'll
forget about the fact that you
mistreated and five minutes ago as long
as now they feel what they need to feel
to trust you and so a boy can experience
real-life experiences in real time in a
real short amount of time mm-hmm and
there's the experiences you have with
people only it's condensed down and so
this this therapist got a horse I helped
him get a horse and he was using it with
his marriage and Family Therapy at night
he tottered a shoe during the day at
night he had a practice out of his house
so he had this couple come to his house
and you know he came to work the next
day and couldn't wait to tell me this
story you know he says his couples in
his office and the husband's sitting
there with his arms folded and just
closed he doesn't want to be there his
body language is my wife drugged me here
for this
marriage therapy and I don't want to be
rich or and so my buddy says to them you
know obviously you don't want to be here
so let's just cut this thing short right
now it's not gonna be good to force it
I'm not gonna charge you anything but
before you leave I'd like you to come
out back with me and me my horse
actually have a couple of words that I
gave me my horses and then you can
decide if you want to come back
next week or not so they stepped out
into the backyard and he brought one of
the horses from the stall over towards
where the man was and put the horse
about ten feet away and then he said to
the man you know go up and pet my horse
and introduce yourself to him you know
go check him out as the man walked
toward the horse horses turn and ran and
ran to the far corner of the past year
and the man looks at him like what's
that all about you know he goes you'll
see he says his hang tight anyway he got
the second horse brought the second
horse over he said listen this time I
want you to take some deep breaths I
want you to humble yourself you know
you're a little bit you come across
arrogant you come across powerful you
know and I think that horse was a little
overwhelmed by you he says what I'd like
you to do is breathe slow and calm
yourself down and hold your hand out
same thing as I did was she hold your
hand out and let the horse invite you in
and they did all that and of course the
horse invited him and he's able to pet
the horse then he brought the wife over
and then he said to the man he said you
see a horse over in the corner of the
pasture that ran and he goes yeah that's
your wife interesting now if you'd like
to come back I'd be happy to help you
guys hmm and he said goodbye to him and
that was evening and then the next
morning he comes to me and goes man that
was powerful you know just that object
lesson was so powerful that let that
husband know you're a bully you know
you're without even saying anything
you're a bowling word so you're so I
mean this is going to a point where it's
saying your body language really I guess
what is eat your attitude yeah right
that you may not even be conscious that
you're carrying around with you I've had
feedback all of us get a little bit of
feedback here and there right where I
think and I really like that you know I
don't think I consciously well you're
springing thoughts in my brain as
you say all that while all this is
happening with these horses I'm also a
disciple of a arbinger and arbinger is
a philosophy that came out of BYU
professor there had developed it and
arbinger’s really a language he created a
language and diagrams to be able to put
together arbinger
there's actually a company called
arbiter
Institute and they market to large
businesses that's their main goal is to
go into big corporations and teach this
philosophy to the employees executives
and on I know I've read a book but yeah
there's Anatomy a piece is a book that
they produced leadership and self to say
that's gonna grow is the business book
that most people read and there's
another one that was put out by the
actual creator of arms are called the
bonds that make us free
you know the bonds that make us free is
kind of a name that really describes it
but this philosophy is the study of what
we call self-deception
we go through life seeing ourself a
certain way in thinking we're a certain
way but other people see us a little
differently and they well it's not
how they feel us they experience us
differently and we're so convinced that
what we see is accurate and right that
we don't recognize how we affect them is
this what do they call that the box yeah
being in the box yeah that's one of the
phrases they use so what I learned
with the horses is as I'm learning these
concept of the horses all the things I
had alert and I'm a certified are with
your instructor at this point I'm going
this is Arbinger for horses
I mean it's exact same principles the
first principle of our viewer that we
learn is there's something deeper than
behavior and we call it way of being so
I can go up to my wife and say honey you
look so pretty today here have some
flowers you know now my wife would look
at me and say what do you want okay she
wouldn't say oh thank you you're
probably not the old what do you want
okay so the behavior was giving her
flowers and telling her that she's
pretty mm-hmm my way of being is why did
I do it and there's two choices and
again our Mira created a language they
created a vocabulary mm-hmm one is I'm
responsive the other is I'm resistant so
every behavior can be done one of two
ways responsive or resistant responsive
means I see people as people meaning I
see their humanity their fears or hopes
their dreams their fears I understand
who they are resistant means I see
people as objects they're there for me
to use they're either in my way they're
an obstacle they're either vehicle for
me to get what I want or they're
irrelevant they're just not on
my radar but they're not real they don't
have feelings like I do so when I give
my wife those flowers and what I'm
really thinking in my mind is I want to
go with my buddies tomorrow morning you
know out into the mountains and go
hunting or horse riding or shooting or
whatever you know and she's got a to-do
list that she's already told me for
Saturday you know so I'm buttering her
up tonight and you know doing the dishes
and doing all these things I've never
done anything like yeah yeah right you
know she doesn't respond to the things
I'm doing she responds what she's
feeling which is you want something from
me you know and so typically she slams
that door pretty quick you know and I go
what buying flowers wasn't a good thing
yeah I was a great thing but you did it
resistantly you did it seeing her as an
object she was a vehicle you're trying
to get what you wanted and then when she
says no she becomes an obstacle and you
get mad you know whereas if you were
responsive you give her the flowers and
you tell her she's pretty because you
love her and you want her to be happy
and you want to make her day and there's
no secret motive behind it
okay we call that way of being well a
horse picks up your way of being fast
you know what are you about are you are
you trying to force me to do something
are you trying to trick me into doing
something you're trying to make me do
something or are you trying to come in
and be a partner with me are you
recognizing that I have fears and hopes
as a horse or that I want security right
and that I need security and if that
horse feels like I'm taking care of them
and I'm there for them they'll give me
everything no they'll do anything for me
anything for me now I propose that a
rebellious teenage boy if he feels like
there's that old movie Elephant Man
mm-hmm and there's a scene in there you
go to YouTube and see it cause it's just
like one of most famous scenes in movie
history where his mask in it and he's in
a train station kids are teasing him and
and his mask comes off at bad day he has
over his head comes on he has this
deformed head that was like an elephant
and people start screaming the children
are afraid they start screaming and
actually you know people think that he
did something to the children and now
the men are chasing him
you know because he's a vicious animal
and they get him trapped in this men's
bathroom with all these urinals it's
black and white you know and it's just a
gross seen at this train station he's
trapped against the wall and I can't
really exact line but he yells out I'm
not an animal I'm a man I'm not an
animal I'm a man you know they're all
staring and I mean we all have this need
to be recognized every one of us you
know whether your prison United States
or a homeless person in LA we just want
somebody to know we're real and care
about us and recognize us
we just want to be that's all just know
that I'm alive and care about me we and
some people say they don't know push you
away because they're so afraid they've
been rejected so much but that's what we
all want so a teenage boy who's smoking
weed or stealing or not doing curfew or
not going to school you know you ask him
what do you want I want you to leave me
alone get off my back you know mm-hmm
what he really wants is somebody to care
about him that's what he was now a
parent's say I love my son what are you
talking about I love my son this isn't
about love so here's a question though
on that I hear you know I've got a
couple boys so you're saying that if
there's a problem with your boy let's
say these boys here then if I'm using
the analogy of breaking the horse then
I'm going to be looking at discipline
right now I'm looking at discipline
there's a problem here if I'm looking at
the natural horsemanship then I'm
walking wanting to go into that into my
son's space right I want to go into his
space what do you learn just go into his
spaces do you mean when you say that
that could have a negative connotation
okay well looks like you're saying with
a horse what you want I want him to walk
a me in yes good a point where he's
walking me you want him to welcome you
in okay you want him to value the
relationship with you so much that he
would do anything to have that
relationship in place so one is
you've got the stick and the carrot
right and the effects are gonna be
short-term and then it's not gonna work
in the long run yeah and then the other
one is you're saying I have I have
recognized you so much and show you love
that you can trust me enough that you're
actually going to even start taking
initiative on a certain behavior and
you're going to change that behavior
because of because you want to you want
to please me because of what we have you
gather so the bond a bond between us you
know is more valuable to you than
what then creating the conflict than
anything yeah than me having fun being
with my friends getting drunk getting
high getting my way you know all that
rebellion stuff is really saying please
recognize me
you know do you care about me or not
whenever but aren't you getting that in
the same way back what about if you if
you're you know I'm looking at it from
it from a proud standpoint if I'm acting
as a father I guess I want to feel that
way too
absolutely I want you to respect me son
absolutely right I want you to recognize
me
right right so I'm wanting the same
thing right isn't that true and that's
why we take these boys and we teach them
this material and say this is what your
mom wants this is what your dad wants
and if you want them to be on your side
mm-hmm then let them know you're on
their side let them know you understand
what they feel what they're experiencing
what their hopes and their dreams and
their fears are and you need to get out
of the box with them instead of seeing
them as an obstacle in your life see
them as people if you remember when I
said to Gary
anytime a horse had a problem I'd say
well what's the problem and he'd always
say well you know the problem is like oh
yeah it's me mm-hmm you know well that's
what we say in our venture too so if my
son is rebelling and he's not coming in
like curfew you know he just refuses to
come in on time and I've taken away the
keys and I've taken his phone and
I'm threatening you know I'm running out
of stuff to take away right what do I do
next well doing as a behavior and he's
not responding to your behavior he's not
responding to the keys and
and those things he's responding to your
way of being and your way of being as
resistant because you see him as an
object you see him as an obstacle he's
an obstacle to you getting sleep at
night you know or being seen as a good
parent by the neighbors or people at
church you know for whatever reason now
it has I do love you love him nobody
doubts that you love him but still those
those views are selfish yeah see I love
my wife but I see her is an object all
the time you know I use her she's in my
way all the time and I'm constantly
having to check myself and go am I
resistant resistant to her humanity or
am I responsive responsive to her
humanity she resistant doesn't mean I'm
rebelling and fighting against for
example with my wife's a vehicle I'm
being really nice to her we're getting
along great
right as long as she's doing what I want
her to do you know and I'll do what she
wants me to do we use each other as
vehicles and we get along great but as
soon he says no or somebody's sick or
somebody doesn't you know cooperate then
they become an obstacle then I'm mad and
I'm upset and this isn't fair and that's
called being in the box we now see them
as an object people respond to how you
see them not to what you do because you
can do anything two ways you can do a
responsive or resistant so if my son is
not being compliant not coming in at
night the answer isn't for me to think
of something else to do it's not your
behavior yeah the answer should be to
look at me and see that's
counterintuitive what was very coward to
a lighter you know we think he's the
problem and we blame him and he needs to
get his act together and Armiger says no
you dad you need to look at you and get
your act together how do you see your
son what is he feeling from you is he
feeling that he can trust you can he
trust you or is it about you know is
your motive for him to come in at 11
o'clock because of a genuine real
concern for him and I found in my
life and I really stop and look at it
most of the time it's about me I want to
go to bed I don't to be up all night
I need him home when he let me go I'll
tell him bad things happen and at night
you know and you need to be home and I
don't
trust these other kids and I trust you
but I don't trust them you come with all
kinds of stuff sure the bottom line is I
wanna go to bed and I need you home you
know and you got to get up at 4:00 in
the morning yeah yeah and he's over
there going this isn't about me dad you
act like it's about me but even lying it
isn't he can feel the difference he
knows mm-hmm you know he might even know
that I love him
you know do you think your dad loves you
yeah why do you think he wants you to
committee eleven o'clock I don't know
cause he doesn't trust me you know okay so
dad look inside and go why do I want him
in at 11 o'clock and if your reason is
because you care about him and it has
something really to do with him then
hold that boundary and argue teaches us
that you'll respond now it might take a
little while just like with the horse
it's a longer training process than
breaking a horse see we're too impatient
so if I take away the keys or the car I
can get complaints from right now and
that's what I want right because it's
not about him it's about me you know but
if I'm willing to be patient and do
natural horsemanship instead and take
time and build that relationship I
interviewed a bunch of boys for podcast
that we did the other day and we talked
about the phrase I don't care and how
when they finally said to their parents
I don't care how liberating it was for
them they were free you know and of
course their parents were done and it
landed the boys that a Boys Ranch
because parents didn't know what else to
do and we gotta have help you know and
they bring their boy to us thinking
maybe you can discipline him better than
we could you know well I can't I can't
discipline him better than you but what
I can do is I can practice Harbinger or
natural horsemanship better than you and
I give your son experiences with horses
so he can really understand the
principles better faster as he does it
with a horse and then we transfer it
over to people and I can do those kinds
of things and that's what we end up
doing and parents slowly figure out
that's what we're doing and then they go
wow this is powerful bottom line is I
have to look at me and my way of being
you know how do I see him and it will
take longer but then he starts to oh
that's the boys in the podcast and the
boys all said I said if you give some
advice to your parents now knowing what
you know now having meant the ranch for
a while learn what you've learned what
would you say and every one of them said
stop stop taking stuff away stop
grounding us it doesn't work you're just
making it worse what you need to do is
spend time with this building
relationship and unfortunately it should
have been done before do you find that
for example a lot of the boys that are
that end up at Arbinger with you are they
are there or is it often times that
that's the relationship they have with
their parents oh yeah so it's as much
the parent in this relationship that is
the result of the boy the way he is you
just say it like this yeah right but I
tell pyramid it's part of the picture
right I mean like you're saying I mean
it's can you build a relationship strong
enough I don't know everybody fits into
that but I tell parents when your son
comes home he'll be in a good place
50% of his success when he gets home
will be based on you being in a good
place if you learn this material and the
whole time the boys at the ranch we
start to rebuild a relationship with the
parents we invite the parents to come
that first weekend that they come and we
give them instructions you don't ask
about how schools going you don't ask
about how they're advancing those
questions are outlawed but we just want
you to be present with him enjoy him get
to know him and build that relationship
we want him to feel that you can be
trusted that he can trust you with his
life you know remember that little horse
is gonna test you in the morning to see
whether or not he can trust you to take
care of him and so parents that
means having boundaries you have to set
curfews you have to have rules because
that's part of taking care of him and
he'll rebel he'll push against them you
know I want you home 11 o'clock that's
not fair that's not fair son I know it
doesn't seem fair to you but that's the
policy at our house you have to be home
at 11 o'clock I'm not gonna talk about
taking away keys or grounding him I'm
just telling this is the rule you have
to be home at 11 o'clock there's a big
part of that why it'd be explaining why
doing it responsively
I don't even necessarily have to explain
why he already knows mm-hmm listen these
boys aren't stupid if he feels that I
love him
care about him I gotta quit using the
word love because we know you love him
if he feels that my motive is my concern
for him and that I want him to be happy
and successful and it's not about me I'm
willing to stay up all night if that's
what it takes that doesn't bother me
I'll stay up all night I just know this
is good for you you need your sleep you
have school the next day you know
whatever the case may be and I can
explain that to him and he can feel the
difference you can feel the difference
when somebody's telling you something
whether its response or resistant you
just know you just it's what we sense
way of being a horse just knows it and
you just know it if this is natural when
somebody says to you hey I really like
those shoes that you got you know that's
those are really nice you know if they
really like the shoes or if they're
trying to butter you up you can't tell
the difference you know so politicians
are mostly resist there you go there you
go so the boy knows whether or not you
really care and again he may test it
he will test it and he'll come in late
to see what you do now you may say well
there has to be consequences or he gets
away with it we get hung up on this
having control and people getting away
with things and we got to let that go
we've got to let that go to a certain
point why is that we have to have
control I am able to figure that out yet
why we're control freaks because we were
raised and people did it to us and
we have to do it to them but anyway so
yeah if he does come in late I would sit
down and say hey son you know I asked
you to be home at 11:00 you weren't home
e11 what do you think we ought to do you
know and let him come up with something
mm-hmm the biggest consequence these
boys get for disobedience and rebellion
is they don't like themselves that's the
biggest consequence we can't do anything
greater now so if my son comes in late
you know from curfew and I'm responsive
I sit down son what's going on
you know first off what happened he may
have a legitimate reason you know I
was one of those parents that my son too
you know a very intelligent kid but he
just processes things a little slower
than I do and so I would ask him a
question what were you thinking yeah
that's right you weren't thinking and
then I jump all over him okay well he
and I had some therapy together after
some experiences that we had and the
therapist looked at me and said would
you shut up for a minute
when you ask him a question wait and let
him answer mm-hmm
oh my goodness that made a world of
difference I found out the kid had
answers and he had explanations and most
of them were legitimate but I never gave
him a chance because I just jumped right
in yeah so son what do we do about you
coming in late and just wait and let him
come up with it let him think about it
he'll come up with a consequence okay
let's do that if he says well I should
give you the car key okay then give me
the car key and then let's move forward
and if he knows I care about him it's
gonna make a big dear son let me share
another story that was very impactful
for me yeah I know this material but it
doesn't mean I always live it you know
I'm still a person who messes up my
youngest son was raised on the boys
ranch
mm-hmm he moved there in this 13 years
old and he spent the first year just
with me down there and he was one of the
boys on the ranch we kind of used him
when we first got started we weren't we
didn't have a lot of boys and we have
rules that you can't ever be alone with
a boy there have to be you know too deep
leadership type stuff and so we would
use him as a pawn and use him to be
that second person when we needed him in
places he never knew that's what we were
doing and guess we were using him as an
object but anyway and then as well there
was a parent week and his mom came down
and he was showing off to his mom and he
and I were horse racing and he ran into
a fence and broke his leg and ended up
going back up to Gilbert for six weeks
and when he came back down I'd had like
eight boys come into the ranch and he
didn't know him and all some things had
changed he wasn't quite as familiar with
everybody as he was before and so at
that point his relationship with the
boys was a little different and he was
over an outsider yeah he was now kind of
an outsider and living at the ranch
wasn't so cool anymore so over the next
few years now my wife he ended up moving
down and but for the next few years you
know he did only like his life and there
was one boy that he got close to and it
was a boy that I was close to also and
this boy was getting ready to go home I
was doing fairly well he had a home
visit the home visit had a bad
experience and his dad said one of the
cardinal phrases you never say he said
you haven't changed at all you don't say
it to a kid who's been working so hard
you know to change and he slips up one
little thing and you haven't changed at
all
and he couldn't get that out of his head
he came back to the ranch very upset and
depressed and before we really had a
chance to process it he hung himself and
we had a suicide there on the ranch long
and as the hardest day I ever
experienced on the ranch and to this day
I'm very close to the family and we've
been in contact and on the anniversary
of his death they come visit and we
spent time together but I was so busy
that day
protecting the boys and taking care of
them and getting help and having people
come in to help and keeping them away
from the crime scene because the police
were down there with tape all over the
place but I forgot about my son and he
actually went down and saw the body and
it was kind of gruesome mm-hmm and you
know like much later we've learned it
into being one of those PTSD type
experiences well and I was scheduled to
go on a final ride with some boys with
her horse
they were graduating we were taking that
horse of the mountains for that last
testing period with their horse to see
how well their horse trusts them and
stuff and kind of a neat experience to
end their journey at the ranch and I
was always the one that went on the
final rides and the boys liked me to go
and I liked to go and was a big deal and
I had got the therapist to approve me
taking my son with us on the final ride
because I didn't want to leave him alone
we just had learned that he's addicted
to painkillers and I just needed to be
with him and watch him and keep an eye
on him till we could figure out what we
were gonna do and try to get him into
this program and so I said trivalent
when you go on this ride with us he goes
I don't want to go I'm not going I said
I really need you to come and go so that
I can keep an eye on you said I'm not
going I'm not going well the morning of
the ride came and he got up and I was at
home and he was what are you doing here
and I said I'm not going well you mean
you're not going I said I'm staying here
with you
and that was the first thing that just
shocked him and in his mind he's going
why are you staying here with me and he
didn't trust me mm-hmm
you know what's your motive are you
trying to trick me you know are you
gonna tie me up and take me to this
program you know
what square he was 18 years old at this
point by the way and anyway I just said
no I need to be here with you and so he
was shocked that I gave up a final ride
to spend with him so that was the first
indication maybe my dad really does care
about me but he still wasn't sure you
know so he still tests me a little bit
more and so now we're going to this
program and we're doing group therapy
together with other parents and boys and
there were several times we had classes
together and then we separate and I
would be with parents and he would be a
boys and then I would leave he'd be
there a lot more than I was there and
but I was there four days a week and
participating with them and anyway one
point I was asking myself because his
attitude stunk you know he just didn't
want to change mm-hmm and so I'm
going okay what do I need to do now do
is a behavior mm-hmm and as soon as I
said it myself is that Ron he's not
responding to what you do he's gonna
respond to your way of being so how do
you see him well I seem as immature I
seem as rebellious he really hurt his
mom he took enough his mom's medicine
that she went through some real pain and
withdrawals and he did that to his mom
and that upset me and I guess I'm kind
of mad at him and I realized that I was
resistant with him that he was an
obstacle to me and also how does it look
here's a guy who runs a program for boys
that are struggling and his own son is a
mess you know yeah how could he do that
to you yeah and I'm going man I can't
help him mm-hmm
until I see him differently and I spent
a couple weeks on my knees reading
scriptures trying to I'm gonna get
emotional on you here trying to see him
the way Lord saw him mm-hmm I knew he
was God stuff you know but what does
that really mean you know and the fact
that the Savior would atone for him and
loved him that much and what am I
willing to do and why the Savior did it
for no other reason than just love
there's no nothing tied to it
and if I have that faith then I hang in
there and then I see the results and I
become more convinced wow this is the
way to do things
this is it's actually the gospel in
action it really is
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