Are LDS Becoming Baptist?

Lance Kennedy speaks with Greg: He Analyzed Every General Conference Talk Since 1942 Is the LDS Church Becoming Evangelical? Do we sound more like Baptists now? The Data Shows a Dramatic Shift An 85-Year Study of General Conference Reveals a New Direction In Language

 Raw Transcript:

Welcome to Quick Show. My name is Greg Matson and I am your host. In this episode, we bring on Lance Kennedy.
Lance grew up the son of a Protestant pastor. So, he comes with that background and has noticed in the church
that there's been a change over the last 20 years or so with the church and their language and
it becomes a lot more evangelical, right? So we we lean a lot more on the side of love and mercy than what we used to do and what originally attracted him.
Now this isn't about trying to write the ship. This is just an awareness practice that was done so we can say okay well
what does this mean? Why would the church begin to speak this way? Is it an issue of culture more broadly? In other
words, okay, the culture is becoming more, let's just say, loveydvey and and and less, hey, inspiring, challenging,
go work. And the pendulum may have swung right in the 80s, 90s over to a point where the church was like, okay, I've
got five activities this week with the church and and so they've pulled away from that. And I I think that's pretty
obvious that that is something that they have done. look how we've changed uh especially with President Nelson in terms of reducing the hours of of church
and activities and etc etc. So that is for sure. But the question is on the language that's something that really
interests me. Uh you know that I've talked a lot about teddy bear Jesus and and how you know that that seems to be very different than from what I grew up
with. And I'm not saying the church teaches a teddy bear Jesus. I'm saying that the people sometimes change and accept and and are looking for a teddy
bear Jesus. the members of the church are doing that. So this is a fascinating conversation in understanding okay what why has the church moved this way. He's
done a lot of uh research going through for example all the general conference talks for I I think it was the last 60
years plus and and the language changes and the word changes etc. So now this episode is brought to you by go and do
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in Egypt. And don't forget to go subscribe for my new channel, The Greg Matson Show. You can find it on YouTube, Gregmatson. Here we go with Lance.
Lance, you've noticed a shift in the church, in its verbiage, in policies, maybe maybe even, I don't know, doctrine
or the way it's explained. a move from what might be considered more Orthodox Mormonism moving over toward
evangelicalism. And you have some perspective on that. What have you noticed and why would you have that perspective?
Well, you know, Greg, uh the the perspective came really because of my background growing up in evangelicalism, Pentecostalism. And so, you know, I was
already somewhat primed to hear uh language that was familiar to me. So, starting with the presidency of
President Nelson, I began to see a shift in not only the reference to terms like grace and an emphasis on grace. Um, some
of this was outside of the church at the time with Brad Wilcox, who's now a general um leader in the church, general officer. Um, but then there was also
perceived deemphasis of many core uh Latter-day Saint uh doctrines as well.
And so the combination of both the newly found emphasis again on grace on um on Jesus as really the focal point, but not
only that, the aesthetic changes in the temple and meeting houses and and whatnot um all combined to really uh
direct me to do some research and see if not only were my uh intuitions correct.
And so that transitioned into actually a data study where I um you know using um some new AI tools was able to analyze um
every general conference talk from the 1940s um to the end of President Nelson's term as president of the church
and was able to track Reject's patterns of phrases and verses and other concepts over time to see uh what the changes
were and and the findings were extremely interesting.
What are the findings? I'm really I'm really very interested in this. If it's running a database, what are we talking about here? 60 85 years or so, 86 years
then of I think anybody who's been around a little bit and been in the church, especially someone like me who's been in the church my entire life, I mean, we've seen an obvious shift, right?
There is a change in things. And some might say, okay, well, there's a an evening out here. We were too Orthodox.
there was maybe too strict too much strictness too much uh um in your face I guess things um removing the miracle
forgiveness quote by Spencer W. Kimble or all these, you know, the Mormon doctrine, etc. But but there is a shift.
I mean, there's no question that the the the language is different. What does the hard data say?
6 minutesYeah. So, to to kind of just at least echo something you said, like I I absolutely agree with phasing out um particularly the miracle of forgiveness.
I think it did a lot of damage to a lot of men in the church and um wasn't probably wise to give men on their missions that as well. Um but that's a
whole other aside. Um, what I'm really referring to though are distinctive doctrines that are really at the core of the restoration because you know if you
really look at what Joseph Smith did as the prophet particularly in the you know latter years of his prophethhood towards Nauvoo somewhat in Kirtland but later uh
he he inverted most of the Christian doctrines such as you know exolo creation uh the uh eternality of the
human soul uh divonization not just theosis I mean a lot of um you know Mormon commentators will use the term theosis. That I think that's a misnomer.
That's really a Eastern Orthodox category. Um, so you know, Joseph collapsed a lot of categories. Matter and spirit were identical. Uh, God and
man were the same species. And so these are these are truly unique concepts that are particular and an inheritance I
think of of the restoration and Joseph sealed that with his blood. Um, but when you start hearing things that deemphasize those doctrines, really
returning us to verbage that's very familiar to Protestants, not only um is it something in my mind that's merely uh aesthetic, you know, talking about
grace, you're really fundamentally altering uh the direction and and the orientation of the church and really the whole project of salvation. So you know
there is going to in my mind there's a consequence to the way words have consequences ideas have consequences and
the way we teach these conse concepts really are going to have consequences in my mind and the way that we view ourselves and view each other and and
really the church and its its its ultimate goal.
So one thing I've definitely noticed is that I I do think and it's the deemphasis is real that that is definitely real. Um, when I listen to
general conference, typically it's more the deemphasis that I'm noticing than than, you know, any kind of big change.
I mean, they're still returning the family proclamation here and there. They still come back to exaltation here and there, but the deemphasis on talking
about the doctrinal issues is is definitely a real thing. It seems to have been a strategy of some sort which is uh you know maybe maybe that's not
the charge of the church right now is to is to go into that type of a doctrine.
Maybe we went too far. We had Hugh Nibbi used to write the priesthood manual for us. I mean it was there was it's a very
big change once you add correlation in there and that that that the church has gone through and where we've kind of
created a lot more milk and a lot less meat and and maybe that boils up or percolates up all the way into general
conference even. Uh but I do see a change there or or or a distinction between at least what I hear or don't
hear uh in general conference and what the culture of the church regurgitates and and and starts to say. Do you think
that there is a this change this move toward evangelicalism?
Is it something that the church wants? I mean and if so, why would they want it? I'm talking about Salt Lake. Or
is it more a cultural issue more broadly that just kind of entering in from the sides into the membership and and we're
taking that on as a you know we don't want the microaggressions of talking about exaltation and and and a a an end point
that might be different from everybody else. a disparity in the different kingdoms and you know things that culturally
have have gone against the plan of salvation and the doctrine of of Christ.
Well, I know so so if we get in the data just so we understand you know what I'm talking about I think is pretty concrete and objective and empirical. Um so there
were over 5,800 talks that we analyzed 11.1 million words so it's a a very substantial data set. It was from 1942
to 2025. And then there were seven metrics um that were tracked, you know, such as grace first works language, um
lurggical language. So like I I specifically targeted the word holy week as a phrase. Um that's particularly interesting. Uh quotes by the living
prophet versus quotes by Joseph Smith or references to those individuals. Uh different vocabulary changes and the like as well as what I would consider
more like generic Christian piety. um you know and things that again would be familiar to a Baptist or a Methodist and so forth and there was a clear inflection point in starting about 2018.
So you did see a trend upward in all these categories from uh really n really David McKay was kind of the beginning of
you know every member of missionary and and kind of this more outward oriented church um but the the trends stayed fairly level but then you saw under
President Nelson a complete change. So for instance, he's the very first president um and I think this has actually reversed itself under Oaks. I'm
not def definite, but he was the only president of the church that was both quoted and mentioned more than Joseph Smith and it wasn't even close. It was like 3 to one. Um you know, and and this
kind of I think also fit with a lot of the agilation uh with his 95th and 100th birthday and whatnot. Um, and so I think
that was all intentional along with combining that with the change in verbiage to uh really shift the attention from the past to the the
present. Um, you could say that's because you want to deal with the issues of our time and that would be probably the most charitable characterization.
Um, but also I think it it really reflects other trends you've seen in other churches that have done very similar things um to a deep insecurity
about growth and uh retention. Um because you know if you have a product that's working and selling you don't change it. Why would you? Coca-Cola
doesn't have to change his product. It tried Coke 2 or whatever it was back in the 90s and it failed. Um so it it really shows when you have to start changing your verbiage, changing the
12 minutespackaging, the labeling and everything, it's really because you're trying to jumpstart things. And there was a telling quote in 2019 um at the Rome
Temple dedication. Uh President Nelson said, "This is a hinge point in the history of the church." um well what was he talking about? Now
my interpretation is it's not only a a growth of temples and whatnot. It's also um I think a change where they were
trying to again restart church growth that started you know really declining.
I think it was a negative growth uh for for probably 15 years prior to the dedication of the church of the temple in Rome. So um all combined when you
look at all these these changes it's very clear um that there was something internal that had to be uh directed by
the leadership in the church towards this end because it wasn't just one person. It wasn't just President Nelson saying these things. It was across all
the general authorities that were giving these talks. So it was a clear coordination. It also lines up with the hiring of Aaron Sherinian as well. if
you want to kind of put him in the mix and throw him out there. I have some thoughts about, you know, him as the communications director of the church and its appropriateness. Um, but that's
just my interpretive lens and I think again the data backs it up. Um, I mentioned though uh lurggical language particularly um, Holy Week. Um and so
for the listeners that maybe grew up in a Latter Day Saint context, Holy Week is more of um it's a concept of diffused in
Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy and some of the more traditional forms of Protestantism like Lutheranism and it
it's really the the dates from Palm Sunday to Easter. It's Holy Week. This phrase was roughly not used at all. I
mean it there would be occasional references um you know maybe like 1956 was one uh where they would say you know
this holy week you know and phrases like that but you saw in 2018 an absolute spike in the usage where that phrase was
used I mean dozens of times in general conference and you have to ask why well it may be a reemphasis on the passion
and Christ and you know Easter totally fine um but it's also a phrase again that's very familiar to more lurggical
uh Christians. And so if you're trying to attract them, you want to use language that's familiar to them. Um you know, I when I joined the church in
2007, you know, the cross was looked at as uh kind of almost like an abhorrent symbol to many Mormons. It was like this
thing, you know, I I got the analogy, I always thought it was silly that it's like, you know, Jesus getting hit by a car. Why would you want to celebrate that? You know, things like that you've
probably heard. Well, now we have a a really um I mean I think it's a bad composition, but you have a giant crucifix now um on Temple Square.
So, you just have to look at the the way this is flipped. Moroni's come down, the cross has come up. And again, I don't feel this is just some pattern that's
not intentional. This is a very clearly constructed um goal to I think repackage and paint the church as a Christian
organization. uh because the Mormon brand was so damaged and it really posed a a big issue for for evangelization um
not only in the United States but worldwide. So So here here's what I'm confused about though is is you have yes the church the growth rates of the
church going through from from the 70s especially the 80s and into the 90s was incredible. I mean it was we were growing I think close to a clip of
around 4%. Um, and but but other Christian denominations were doing pretty well too. Not as well as we were, but they
were doing pretty well. We all dropped, right? When when we look at this in just a Latter-day Saint lens, the problem is,
okay, if a as an example, all of Christianity has dropped in and it in its activity in in
baptisms and membership and in everything all across the board over the last several years.
We have an uptick over the last few years, but so does the rest of Christianity, right? I mean, we're we're actually in terms of new membership, we're like
number three. I think the Orthodox are ahead of us and and maybe the Catholics, I can't remember by percentage. Um, so I
I what I don't quite understand then is why are we looking at a way to repackage something if our growth because our
growth is great. I love it. It's fantastic right now, better than it has been, but it's similar to what other Christian denominations are doing, too.
So, so I I don't know that us repackaging or or uh appearing more mainstream
has any bearing whatsoever on on the growth and the and the uh the number of baptisms
and missionary efforts etc. Do you see a distinction there?
I do. Let me just finish with this. I've always like I always say this. It's if you want to be the shining city on the hill, you you can't be down in the valley too.
You you have to have a clear distinction of the two so that people can make a choice even if some don't like it. Okay. But
but is there a distinction where people can make a choice?
Well, I so to answer I mean to pull apart a couple of those questions um yes I think there were growth trends um amongst many different denominations.
Southern Baptist had a similar growth trend. A lot of it was evangelical uh efforts or evangelistic efforts I should say um in South America and Africa.
Pentecostalism, right? Uh the tradition I grew up in was founded in roughly 1900. Um now it has about half a billion
members. It's one of the largest Christian uh denominations, groupings if you want to call it that, worldwide. Um so clearly there's been massive growth
in other groups. This is the difference though is that I and this is something I think really is a problem and one things they're dealing with is the growth rate
of the church was and I'm talking about the LDS church here was proof and taught as proof of the uh divine sanction of
this institution. You know, we're we're rolling forth across the world. Look how fast we're growing. And so that was that was taught to the membership for
decades. So what happens when that growth trend doesn't continue? Well, you've basically shot yourself in the foot cuz you said this is the proof that
we're the true church and then all of a sudden it starts stalling. Um the other issue I think we have as well is the way that the church does its its books. So
the the membership is kept on the books I think to 120 years. So your birth date plus 120 years then they phase you out.
So you had all these baptisms in the 70s, 80s and 90s. Those people were baptized in these what are they? Soccer team baptisms or whatever they're
called. um most of them have been to the church in 20 30 years and so we're still touting this number. We have 17 million members but if you actually look at
activity rates it's probably four to six million active members in the world. Now if you ask me that's fine. It makes us actually uh it's more impressive given
the church's um you know uh power and influence and ability to uh influence culture um also its its economic and
financial status. I mean there's a lot of things to me that that actually show it's a better you know fit. But if you want to keep up the appearance of
growth, you want to keep up the appearance that the church isn't really declining in terms of numbers and activity, well, you're trying to really
jumpstart that growth rate, and you're going to do anything possible um to do that. Um now, what I would say though, as you said, no church is showing any
type of growth. Um that may be the case worldwide or in general, but there are churches in the United States that are showing massive upticks in conversions.
So the Eastern Orthodox Church reported I think 78% higher conversion rates than they did precoid.
Yeah. I'm saying the last the last few years Christianity has k t k t k k k k k k k k k k k k k k k k kicked up overall. It's it's especially among men. Especially among men.
There has been there has been a u and I don't know if you want to get into this conversation now about, you know, men and women and why they're attending. Um yeah, there has been, but we haven't
really seen that, I don't think, in the in our church in the LDS church in the same fashion. seen an uptick in in in
membership. I mean, not let me let me back up. Not in membership. We've seen an uptick in baptisms, right? We've seen Yeah, there has there has been, but if
you I think I saw one statistic that if you really look at attrition rates and death rates, we grew like 86 people worldwide. Um, that's exactly right. That's
Yeah. So, like, yeah, you have a more global church. It has more people. You did have more baptisms, but there really
is no growth. It's it's it's basically, you know, if it's not declining, which it is, again, if you really look at the
books, um the even if you have this uptick of baptisms, which partially had to do with uh lowering the the age of missionaries, getting more missionaries
out in the field, um I think that, you know, those numbers really could be impressive. I'm not saying they're bad.
I think they're good. They're the highest baptismal rates in years. Yeah. Like 385,000 last year.
Yeah, that that's great, right? That's a good number. They should continue to that should continue to trend upward.
But I'm saying that the actual number of the membership probably is lower. And so some of you know to kind of circle back to your your question of why this is the
case. I think it's because again of a realization that at some point they're going to have to really announce the true membership of the church because you're going to have millions of people
fall off the roles um at at when they start aging out. So I don't know if it's an optics question. I don't know if it's
um another issue. Uh perhaps there are individuals, you know, at at high levels of the church that really are more evangelically oriented and and want to
see the church move in more of a Protestant um direction. Um I know LDS theologians that have been really pushing for things like social
trinitarianism or um you know really trying to bridge the gap theologically uh with the broader world and really
reinterpret Mormon doctrine to fit um the lens of um of of Protestantism. So, I don't know exactly what the answer is,
22 minutesbut I my guess is again, um, you don't do these things unless you're trying to jumpst start growth and really
invigorate the membership to be excited about, you know, going to church and participating. And so, I I I think that's probably the most charitable characterization that I could give it.
So, you think the move toward evangelicalism, just clear to be clear here, is is is mostly an optics issue
uh for the rest of the world and for and for growth. You're looking for growth. You're looking for baptisms.
Well, I think I think that's a large part of it. I think that after Mitt Romney's campaign in 2012, we saw the
way that evangelicals viewed Mormons um as outsiders. Um I think Mitt Romney botched his his speech at was it Texas
A&M or Rice. he came to Texas and just like JFK did um but really didn't own his Mormonism in the way that you know
JFK owned his Catholicism. So perhaps, you know, leadership is saying, well, we really have to show people our Christian bonafitas um that we really do believe
in Jesus, you know, the guy that walked, you know, in Palestine 2,000 years ago.
And so there may be there may be part of it as a messaging um as well, which I I'm inclined to believe given, you know,
for instance, the change in meeting houses to saying like the artwork in all entryways have to be Jesus. You go to the temples, they added things in interpretive glosses that make it more
Christian. um you know and things of that nature. So probably so yeah I think they're they're definitely trying to to to repaint or I
wouldn't say repaint but rather direct people to accept Mormons as as part of the Christian family.
Uh which you don't like?
Well, I think it's it's it's not that I don't like it. I just think that we went, you know, the church went through,
you know, decades, hundred years, whatnot, of persecution and being the outsiders. And I feel that that uh that
development really is what made the church so strong. You know, the the persecution, the uh the the community that develops when you have to unite
together against like an outside world being up to kill your people. And you know, when you start lowering all these barriers, there's there have been many
studies about um retention and rates, they drop. Um, so my broader concern is not just that we're going to lose these
doctrines. Um, I'm already seeing it when I talk to a lot of like Gen Z members of the church. They have no idea whatsoever about many of the traditional
doctrines. They they think we're Baptists. I mean, roughly, um, you know, they wear crosses. They're, you know, they're they're basically try they wear
WWJD bracelets. I mean, they're really leaning in like we're normal people. And I joined the church for the opposite
reason because I I I saw how dysfunctional the evangelical and Protestant world particularly and also Roman Catholicism post Vatican 2 are.
And um you know the LDS church appealed to me because of its outsider status and its uniqueness and its really its strength. So you know me
distinction you could easily see the distinction 100%. you walked in. You know, I walked in my first ward and sacrament meeting and I was kind of hooked because, you
know, as a 16-year-old boy, they had a job. They were part of the priesthood.
They were all Boy Scouts. You know, there's regimented. Um, it was very disciplined and and people were, you
know, really felt cohesive and and on message and on program. Um, what I'm seeing now though is, I think, as you
like to call it, teddy bear Jesus. Um, a real softening of the messages, very emotive. Um, and I just don't see how
you're going to either attract or maintain particularly men um in the church by continually um making frankly
the the language more and more sappy um you know and and I I think some of that was already in the church in the culture frankly you know the the weeping at
sacrament meeting um you know guys and and I know that's very you know I think special I don't mean to offend people but like if you went to my church
26 minutesgrowing up as a Pentecostal you would see people barking like dogs right? Or jumping up and down, spinning around, shouting. That's the way that
Pentecostals express their uh spirituality.
In the Mormon context, it's it's really crying about innocuous things and looking and looking miserable. And so to an outsider, you come in, you're like,
"What's wrong with these guys?" Like they're having an emotional breakdown.
Um to Mormons, they go, "Oh, he's feeling the spirit." So I just think it was already kind of in the culture to start, you know, that in that direction.
And then you know you have 1971 they drop competitiveness with tournaments and sports tournaments and now we don't have boy scouts and so forth. So um I
know you want to talk about male issues as well masculinity in the church but um I think it's all part and parcel of the same kind of trend we're seeing.
I want to back up to the statistics again. A couple things, you know, we were talking about you know that the overall it looks like there was a net gain of about 86 people in in the church
last year. Um the more important actually number of all of the numbers is the record uh the the B baptisms of
record by by the kids. That's that is the number that everybody should really be following because when you think
about that it's like okay well this is how many kids are being born into the church or families brought into the
church where kids are turning 8 years old and they're getting baptized and it becomes more of a barometer of the
generational strength of the church right and and moving down. But what you've seen in that number is a con even
now even last year the year before it is a continual year afteryear drop. And so two things right one is fertility rate.
I mean we're definitely having fewer and fewer kids. And that's not just an LDS issue. We do better than most. But number two is that those families are
not there anymore. And and they're they're away from the church before their kids are even getting baptized.
And so that that is the number I think that really everybody should be focusing on as far as the health and strength of the gen of of a generational church and
the strength of families within the church is watching that number and and figuring out how do we turn that one up,
right? That's the one that needs to move up because again, baptism is fantastic.
Great. But if you've got a net almost a net zero uh effect on the church year
after year, it's, you know, that that's tougher. Now, one thing I will say is one number that is very good with the
church is activity. We seem to be much more active and this is beyond the Orthodox or anybody else. We do a better job than anyone as far as being active.
That is how many times are you going to church? Are you involved with other non- Sunday events etc. The church does a very very good job the best. They do the
best job with levels of activity. But again, what percentage of the church are identifying
as, you know, they're they're active members of the church?
Well, I think we do do things better in many ways than other churches, right?
So, this is really a relative conversation. Are we comparing oursel to the, you know, Lutheran or the Episcopals? Yeah, we're doing amazing.
Um, or are we comparing ourselves to ourselves, uh, 10 years ago or 20 years ago? And so I think they're both healthy comparisons so you don't get too
blackpilled on really the direction of the church. Um but you know the question about for instance fertility rates in the church and uh the the process the
easiest way to create a a Mormon and a member is to have the baby right. Um I have four in in my family. So we're
trying to do our part but it's Yeah. But but I'm serious like and to your point like my wife has 10 brothers and sisters. She's one of 11 kids right?
Um we basically are like the new 11 you know it's it's because because relatively it's a very large family now
it's huge like people are very they're blown away that we have four kids now in the world is so expensive all the you know the the I think nonsense about um
30 minuteschild rearing and to scare people from having kids but yeah I I I think though the problem we have to face is you know
the the LDS church Mormonism whatever you want to call it um it's almost like a fertility cult Right? Like we really put childbearing at the center of the
spiritual experience. You know, this is this is your purpose is to procreate um you know and to to fill the earth and
therefore have souls bring them into the world. I mean this is like it's not just a nice thing like I think most Christians view child you know it's a be fruitful and multiply. It's like a very
core part of the salvific process. So the question is when you're teaching that doctrine and yet the members aren't
responding to it. What does that say about where the membership is in terms of that question? Are they teaching the doctrine and are we teaching it locally?
I don't think so because I hear less and less of this.
Well, there's no genealogy work. They don't talk about genealogy. We don't talk about home food storage. We don't talk about the apocalypse. We don't talk about the tribulation. We don't talk about anything uncomfortable anymore.
It's pabum. And and and it's been reduced, you know, down to a sixth grade level. So it's consumable by the guy in,
you know, Dominican Republic and the person in Canada. And so because this is the this is, you know, the correlative process is really good. You have a a
package that you you know, you know, when you go to a ward in Massachusetts or California or Texas, you're going to get a very similar product. That's
great. But the the downside of that is is that not every member and not every country has the same level of I think knowledge about the church and doctrine.
And so when you make everything standard, when you're in an area like Utah, which is seeped in, you know, the the Mormon history and culture, um
you're not really delivering much to people that they haven't heard since primary. And so the question becomes like, what's the point of this? You know, I go to church to take the
sacrament. That's great. That takes . You know, why am I going to take two hours out of my day plus the hour to get ready and go home? I mean, you know, you got to give people
something that's worthwhile. And you know, broader concern would be um and just for the record here, like you know, I really feel like what I'm doing, I
want to help the church in terms of like, you know, and the membership um come to terms though with maybe some of the issues we're facing. Um I don't
think it's going to work out though with of Sunday school, you know, as much as people want it to. I I don't know how you even deliver a message. How do you have a a conversation about
anything like exaltation with any meaning and really get into and parse the the doctrine? So the is that going
to be delivered at home? I don't I don't necessarily think so because I think people come to church to be taught and edified and learn something as well. So
you know we aren't teaching these doctrines. We're not doing we're not doing a good job. And you know, um, I love my bishop and I love leadership in
the church, but you know, when you look at the the assigned talks, I mean, they're like, the earth is filled with the love of Jesus, you know, and and
talks like that, like, yeah, it feels really good, but most people are just going to reread a general conference talk. They're not giving a
wellthoughtout sermon that's doctrinally coherent and and really brings out these things that I think are the the pearls
of great price. um that the church has been given.
You know, it's I I think it's interesting what you're saying. Um you know, going toward a a teddy bear Jesus, right? Is you you have a culture where
anxiety is up, depression is up, mental illness is up, and this idea of well, first everyone needs to feel loved
becomes kind of this message that maybe does hit right.
Um but it's never enough. You know it you you that is not the whole message.
It's only half the it's one side of the coin right in other words to me especially for men.
Especially for men it's not of course I want to feel like God loves me but I I
want inspiration. I want challenge. I want vision. I want the meat. you know, I I need all of those things to look
forward so that I can pull others with me in that same direction. But if we
continue to move into a culture of those that quite frankly there there are
uh those that don't grow up or those that have mental illness issues and and it's there's more and more of them, then you know, do you have to keep directing
that message even further into well, God loves you. It's okay. You're going to be healed. But okay, there's no direction for you.
Does that make sense to you?
100%. Yeah. I mean, so like you don't have to come I I think here's the thing.
A church of our size with the amount of resources that our church has has the ability to deliver the messaging to
every person at every single level of where they're at. Okay? There's no reason to just keep one level for everything. And that's kind of what I'm
35 minutesseeing though, right? is not only from general conference but to our local wards. Everything has been reduced to the to a very low sixth grade level. So,
you know, again, you go and you hear talks, but what's the point? You know what you're going to hear? You're going to hear teddy bear Jesus. You're going to hear how much people uh God loves you
and what Yeah, these are great messages, but as you said, that's only half the equation. Um, you know, for me, I have to go really, frankly, go listen to guys
like Josiah Trenum. He's an Orthodox priest. You would love him, Greg, if you have never heard of him. Petristic Nectar. Um, yeah. I mean, the guy's huge online. He looks like a biker, right?
And that's, you know, so you go to an Orthodox church, your priest looks like a biker. Why do you think guys are joining that church? It's hard. The guys are tough. They tell you, you know,
hard-edged things. They're giving you messaging that are timeless. Um, you even have like Islamic scholars like Hamza Ysef, right? Brilliant guy. um you
don't have to be a Muslim to appreciate the fact that he's really talking at a very articulate um academic level but making it palatable to people about you
36 minutesknow traditional Islamic theology. So my point is is that other religions clearly are growing and doing things that aren't
just again reducing things to the lowest common denominator. Um but you know just to kind of maybe give some more context of of why I I'm really viewing this way
is I saw this happen um in my own lifetime in evangelicalism. Uh particularly in the 1990s and early 2000s there was there was a dramatic
transition uh we we called the uh church growth or seeker sensitive movement. And
this was particularly popular as baby boomers um became the dominant force in the culture in the the late 90s. And um so it's baby boomer Christianity, right?
And so you had guys like Bill Hibbles with Willow Creek Church, Saddleback Church, the the largest congregation in the US is Life Church um and uh based
out of Oklahoma City. Um, so you know, my my point is is that I I'm seeing the exact same pattern of basically reducing
the language to teddy bear Jesus to make it as palatable as possible to as many people as possible, reducing the time
and the the level of work that it takes to be a member of the church. Um, I just think Mormons are about 20 years behind the curve. And it's it's really because
the way that, you know, we have a gerontocracy. Um, you know, baby boomers are finally coming into the leadership roles now in our church. and they're
getting the exact same type of church that the baby boomers in evangelicalism got 30 years ago. So, you know, some of the same patterns with the youth, same
things. We're just we're just behind the curve. Probably a good thing in many ways. We're not as um we're not experiencing the same problems, but it does give us the benefit of hindsight
because you can look at what the evangelicals did. It failed. There was a massive push back with the Young, Restless, and Reformed crowd. Okay? um
probably way too far and too hardcore with um the the hardcore hypercalvinism that became popular um in the early
2000s. The same thing happened with the Catholic Church in the 1960s before that. Um you had SSP act as the push
back against that. They're still dealing with that to this day. So my question is if you have these historic patterns where you look at the for instance the
Catholic church uh they had an 80% decrease in Catholic education in schools in the United States in vocations people becoming priests or
nuns um the vast majority of convents have been closed down in the United States for nun nuns and it all points to one point in time which is Vatican 2 and
the consequences of trying to modernize their language and soften their language. Um, and so I just don't I just am saying that I I think you can look at
historic patterns and say this doesn't work and then you can look at other patterns and say, well, what is working?
Or rather, what churches are declining the least? And they they happen to be the most hardcore traditional churches that are the most convicted.
That's why the the Pentecostals are doing some of the best have some of the best retention. I think so.
Yeah. Yeah. And then of course some of the traditional churches. What uh what is the consequence of this? What
would the consequence be if if say for example if if we are moving toward evangelicalism in terms of our language,
teddy bear Jesus um um you know limited talks on exaltation and more talks on
the love of God. Um what are the consequences of that?
I mean, the consequence I think is the most apparent consequence is one that I think is occurring now, which is, you know, Mormons have a a tendency that I've noticed since I joined the church.
Now, um I was recently on another podcast. Um and uh talked about, you know, my trajectory into the church. I
came into the LDS church through uh the Godmakers, incidentally, um just because I thought it was hilarious and it really
started and kicked off an interest of mine in, you know, Mormonism. Um, but I became truly fascinated with it and and absorbed and and tried to do whatever I
could to learn everything I could about the church. Um, but Mormons have this tendency to memory hole, to use a a term
from 1984, their doctrines and inconvenient things from their history.
They just kind of casually fade away and then people don't want to talk about them. They'll say it's a deep doctrine or we no longer teach that. I think that's what's going to happen and
already is happening to many of these these core Mormon, you know, identifications. So for instance, plur
plurality of gods or infinite regress of gods or um godhood, you know, we use softer language now. If you listen to
general conference, they they basically don't say the word godhood anymore. It's phrases like becoming more like your heavenly father, having all that God has for you or similar types of phrasing.
Now, what are they meaning? I think they mean exaltation. I don't think the underlying doctrine has changed, but the packaging has. And the consequence of
that is that people will start becoming, I think, um, they'll have amnesia, collective amnesia about these traditional doctrines.
Well, they're less clear. There's less clarity.
Correct. And the lack of clarity, I think, is what causes a lot of the confusion and discontent that we've seen. Um, you know, and and to President
Oaks's credit, you know, he's he's really, I think, returning um I think to more of a traditional norm. That's what I'm seeing. We'll we'll see. Um u I've always you know favored President Oaks.
He's a lawyer like myself and so you know in his talks um but you know the the question will be is you know for
instance like Aaron Serenian I know you've talked about him um a lot. Um what happens to him? I mean um you know
I personally think the guy's an infiltrator. I I just I don't think you know he you know there's no reason a guy that worked for Philip Morris in the UN
um and who has the views that he did should be running our church's communication um you know and I just I'll say it straight up um you know
there's very questionable posts that have been put out recently um every June right so you know who's watching him I
don't know but but you know we the consequence I think though will be again a continued direction uh where the younger members of the church are going
to continually drift in that one direction and um and I think it'll lower the adherence of those members. I think they're just going to be less sticky
because there's less identity that are part of really what makes them um adhere to the church.
Well, I think you know in in in talking about Jeff Strong along you know Jeff Strong is yeah the book has been a big topic in
the last few months and and I just come back to the same thing. I think that that lack of clarity in doctrine is one
reason why the church is not as sticky as it used to be for people. When I say sticky, I mean adhesive, right? That
they're not sticking with the church because there's not as much clarity in the doctrine. And and if you don't have that clarity, you don't have an anchor,
right? If you don't have those anchors that are in place and it's just all kind of smooshy, uh I I think it's a lot harder to to hang on to things and
because a lot of times you don't understand it. You don't understand what the doctrine is. how and and and we do again we do better than most but if are
we comparing ourselves to where we were 20 years ago or are we comparing ourselves to you know the Baptists and
but I I think that that I think that we really lack that and if we're moving and I'm not saying anything against maybe there's some secret stuff
that I don't know about when you go to move to uh for for Sunday school and priesthood etc but if we are moving in that direction then there is
going to be less input even from correlation on on instruction. So that seems to me
that it's going to move to the family, it's going to move to the home, and you're going to end up, it seems to me,
with either an overall downward turn in in knowledge of doctrine,
which I think is what's going to happen, and or or you're going to end up with a
much an even larger disparity in that knowledge between those parents
that are going to say, "Okay, well, it's all up to us. We're going to do all of it. We're going to recharge and restart
family home evening and and and take care of the do and daily scripture study and make sure that these things are taught in the home and and then
everybody else who doesn't, right?" And and now you're going to have this this even larger discrepancy, I think, in or
disparity in in in a knowledge of that doctrine. I well I mean this is anecdotal um but since come follow me
has been implemented you know I've been in teaching roles in either leadership or teaching roles and you would I mean almost every week when you're like did
y'all read your come follow me maybe one person has in terms of the youth just not being utilized by the broad church membership
there probably is a very hardcore contingent that does it because this is what they're told but as a teaching tool I don't think most families are even doing it um because they don't have that
designated night any longer er that was dedicated towards church activities in the home. Um you know you ask but you have to ask the question why did they
get rid of family home eating? Why aren't they talking about home food storage? Why aren't they talking about genealogy? I think I think in part it's because um there was such an ownorous
burden on the average member in terms of a time commitment that it probably was burning people out three-hour church Monday and so forth. So there was
probably a necessary reduction in the amount of activities that they needed to place on I mean, this is why they went to the three-hour block um originally
was so that people didn't have meetings spread throughout the week. Um so there's probably some merit to it, but but again, the downside is you do put the emphasis and the onus on the
parents. Um and that just becomes basically a a you know, roulette wheel.
Do you have parents that actually care about teaching doctrine um and teaching the history of the church and in a true fashion or or know it?
And most don't. Um, and that's that's the key is like even very educated members in part because they were told to stay away from non-church materials
46 minutesfor so long, they only can rely on church materials because everything else is fake. And so therefore, um, you're reliant solely on what is packaged and
come follow me in in the curriculum. And if it isn't there, it doesn't exist. So, you know, I I I think again, you know, if it was my perfect world, you might
keep come follow me. It's a great, you know, maybe devotional uh tool. Um, but you really need a return to some type of more in-depth manuals that are going
through historical context and um, you know, really, I think, deepening that understanding of the restoration and its
history. Um, but perhaps, you know, maybe there there's some embarrassment about, you know, some of the new things that, you know, have been researched or
being claimed about Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. Um, and so there's a a move to distance um, you know, the church from its 19th century origins.
Yeah, that is the same that would be the same mistake that was made to begin with, right? Instead of leaning into things,
instead of being transparent about it, instead of leaning into the peculiarities of our doctrine and explaining them and giving the why
behind everything to to say, well, we're embarrassed and we're going to separate ourselves from everything. That that doesn't make any
sense to me at all. It's it's because then you're you're just the the the consequence of that is
surprise, you know, here it is something you found on the internet or or again you're you're you're not going
into doctrine that is going to anchor you into the restored church. And again, I I'm so glad, you know, in the last uh what was it? I mean, the address that
President Oaks gave a couple weeks ago and and he went right back to several core issues of family exaltation, the
one true church, the difference between us and the rest of Christianity. Um, if that isn't embedded, then it's like,
well, okay, if all we have a message of is, well, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, well, so do the Baptists. So do the Presbyterians, so do everybody else.
Yeah. I mean, there there's there's definitely a truth to that. So you have to have the distinction that that boundary that you say we are not we're not um a part of the club. You are a
part of the club. You know these are these are boundaries. That's why you know I've said um that to some people's shagrin that I don't think we can
properly call ourselves Christian in the same way that everyone else does. And it's not that I'm saying we're not Christian and that we believe in Jesus and the atonement and all that. What I'm
saying is is that when a Catholic, an Orthodox, and a Baptist sit down together, they consider each other Christian, right? Even though they
reject each other, but they put you as a Mormon outside of their circle. And so, when you have 2.1 billion people that
all agree on one thing, you know, you're a four to six million active member church, you don't get to dictate the terms of the conversation. And also I
think it also is part of the um I think a a I want to say a Uton mentality um where they just they don't like being
49 minutesthe weird guys, the bearded polygamist in the mountains, you know, they don't want to be tied to that. They just want to be the normal American guys that you
know we're just normal like you. Um but the problem is again you you to do that you have to jettison everything that
Joseph Smith died for. uh you have to legitimately be embarrassed. And you know, that's particularly why people are are growing to, you know, there's this
um mentality. Joseph Smith was a monogamous, you know, movement. Now, um you have to ask why. It's because they're embarrassed of it. They don't
want the founding prophet to have, you know, 30 wives or whatever he really had. They don't want him to to fit that mold.
They wanted to be the nice guy from Provo um who who you know uh you know loves his dirty sodas and is really touchyfey and nice and like that's not
Joseph Smith, right? Um you know I I commented that Joseph Smith was a warlord. He basically was. He was a theocratic king. He was crowned king of Israel in 1844. Uh ran his own kingdom.
He had an army. You know he was fighting wars against state governments. You know, that's that that's a guy I think a lot of men if they knew about him in
that role, they would probably at least, you know, they may not like everything he did, but the point is they would still find, hey, that's a really tough, hard dude that created and attracted men
like Brigham Young, you know, other hard dudes with him. We just don't I think we're just and I would say Utons in particular are just embarrassed of that.
Um, but you know, I grew up in Pentecostalism where people made fun of me, Baptists particularly, they would ask if we handled snakes at our church.
U my dad was the the tele evangelist, you know, down the street. And so I understand what it's like to feel different and, you know, maybe don't
like that growing up. Um but now that I'm older, I think that is a bull work against um you know, all the problems that society has. And so my
encouragement would be is again lean in as you're saying into these distinctives. you have an inheritance that's really cool and you should be
proud of that history instead of, you know, you don't have to you don't have to reject things whole cloth because you don't like individual aspects of it. In other words,
yeah, I think that identity is so important and that that's part of what I think we're losing, you know, is is is
that is leaning again leaning into the history and and leaning into the doctrines that make us peculiar. And and that that was crucial for me. I mean,
growing up, I I grew up in Southern California and, you know, I knew I was different and that's fine and and I went
through issues with that, but I had good friends, right, that were they were also peculiar. So, anyway, what about men in
the church right now, Lance? What is, you know, you've got so many more men in the last few years that have started to come back to Christianity, come back to
the church. You can go almost to any pew. I I travel quite a bit and and you see it used to be you always saw more women in the pews than men. Now it's
pretty much 50/50. It's pretty close. I know several wards I've gone to where I see men with uh a member wife but only
the man is there with the kids in in the pew, right? Never never used to see that and now I see it quite a bit. What has
happened do you think with that? Why is there an uptick in in the number of men especially young men uh Gen Z and and
and alpha we could say are that are coming back to the church and back into Christianity. What is what has caused that?
You know I well so there so I was really looking in the data because I was wanting to make sure I was prepared to to answer this cogently. Um, you know,
there has been this this trend line of decline in religiosity and adherence to religion, you know, over time that every generation becomes less religious. Um,
the same is true with Gen Z and Gen Alpha. That's not that's not it's not that they're more religious than millennials who are more religious, you
know, than Gen Xers or whatever. Um, it's that there has been a reversal or at least an apparent reversal among Gen
Z men. Um, it's not a massive uptick, but it is an uptick. um that I think some of the surveys show about 44% of Gen Z men say religion is a very
important part of their life. The problem with a lot of those data sets is they're very small. They're you know 3 400 people that have been surveyed. So
so so I think the conclusions are still out in terms of actually what are the numbers. Um but I do think they're
they're probably again through subjective experience like you're mentioning or again I mentioned you know Orthodox church there's been articles I think I've shared with you um about you
know their pews and their you know churches they have pews are filled uh with young men so there probably are churches that are seeing these uh return
um in particular Roman Catholicism um is kind of the uh you know it's the the new cause celeb we have JD Vance who
converted to Catholicism the uh you have the Cicero club that's kind of running Mal Maga, the the Gen Z millennials, they're all Catholic. Um I can tell you
in the Republican party in Texas, um most of those young guys are Catholic now or converting to Catholicism. So you're seeing a move in that direction
for sure. I think um but this is primarily amongst already conservative individuals. Um I think I will say that this the CES study and
not not the church's study but the the the census and and the uh the pew are very large and they show the same thing.
They show that there's an uptick in men.
Now I will say also that one of but the other on the other side of the coin the reason that shows that way or manifests that way of of having equal men in the
in the pews is because so many women have left the church our church and Christianity as a whole. So, so you get
this little skewing from both sides that that does kind of even things out. But for men, I think it seems to me that
there's a I think they're lost culturally in the culture be, you know, beyond church. And it's like, where do I go for order?
Where do I go for inspiration? Where do I go for anything? Because I'm not getting any good messages in the media.
I'm not getting good messages out in the culture anywhere. I have no I'm not a part of any organization that that there seems to me like there's
maybe a a pretty big void for a lot of young men especially and and and maybe religion answers some of that for them.
100%. Yeah, there there's there's a you know pervasive nihilism in the west and we've we've seen this you know nihilism and relativism um particularly after
World War II um has become kind of the core identity of most westerners. Um you know in certain churches have just completely and utterly collapsed once
they started embracing relativism and the like mostly mainline Protestant denominations. Um but in terms of like the uptick of men yeah I like I said I
probably agree at least objectively I maybe didn't see the data set you saw but um I would agree with it. Yeah, there probably is some type of marginal
uptick in the religiosity of young men compared to women. Um, but you know, why are then women leaving in these massive
numbers? I can really only speak I I would rather only speak and you know, granted to your listeners, we're two dudes talking about this. So, uh,
trigger warning, right? So, you know, we're about to mansplain here. Um, uh, but but in terms of the, you know, at least my perspective, I was talking to my wife about it a little bit as well.
um within you know the LDS church Mormon church um you know you have this uh you know one you have a marriage culture and
marriage is not just a thing that you do that's good so that you can have sex it's the it's the really culmination of
all the sacraments it's the highest sacrament minus one right second anointing um so therefore uh you have to get married and then you get married
young or you have a high amount of pressure on you and I think that you know one of the reasons they raised I don't necessarily agree with it, but the
raise the age and YSA awards is because when people were ed, you know, aging out of the YSA wards, they were so embarrassed they just didn't want to go to church anymore.
And um I think there was kind of that embarrassment. But as a man, you have the priesthood. So you could be a single guy in a family ward. You can hold
callings. You have um you know this real intense uh feeling of purpose. I think with women, a lot of it has to do with
motherhood as like the center of the identity of the church teaches them. Um this is your most important role. So if you don't have that in your life, yeah,
you could be a primary teacher, but what else do you have? And so you're also getting counterveailing messages as well about, you know, being in the workforce
and your duties um to your own self-satisfaction.
Um and so I think, you know, within the LDS church, more, you know, the church Jesus Christ, um you're probably having a combination of both the societal
pressures that are on them, you know, whether or not they should have a career. And for the record, you know, my wife is um an entertainment attorney.
She's Billboard's one of her their top rated entertainment music lawyers this year. Um giving her a little bit of a you know a bump there. Um so I'm very
proud of her. I came from my mom, my grandmother, my great-grandmother were all career women early on. Um so I don't think there's a problem again with that.
But you know you want to be a mom too.
And so I think a lot of women really wrestle uh with that balancing act. Um but in the church right it's motherhood
or else. And you know, my wife gets a lot of and she has historically gotten a lot of u you know, kind of sly remarks
and criticism for being an attorney and working and having kids. Um and so I think probably a lot of women in the church who do aspire to having a career
um feel I think a lot of pressure um and they probably just don't like it. They feel judged and you know so that's a question really I think a cultural
question of the way we we message to women in particular. Um but then again, you know, on the question about men, um there is no messaging to men whatsoever.
No.
And and so we've we've completely gutted um all of the programs that would have appealed to men. Um you know, no more
priesthood sessions, general priesthood sessions. Um there's there's kind of almost like, and this has just been my
uh experience, men apologize. You know, women are so much more pious than men.
Um, you know, uh, ladies, we're sorry that, you know, the guys aren't asking you out. You know, women get coddled in the church in their singleness. Men get
criticized for being single, like finger wagged, like, "Why aren't you hurrying up and getting married?" So, you know, there's there's not a lot of, I think,
positive messaging to men about being a man. Um, and I actually pulled some numbers for you, Greg, because I was trying to come up with something I think would be interesting. Uh, one thing I
noticed, um, you know, is the the pervasive amount of, um, ex Mormons or
Mormons that run the manosphere. So, if you look at a lot of the major organizations, and I pulled, you know,
Sean Whan, uh, Lambs or Wolves Not Sheep, uh, you have Garrett White with Wake Up Warrior, you have Art of Manliness, um, you have Mission60. I
mean, these are just some of the examples. All of them are run by Mormons or ex- Mormons, mostly ex Mormons. And so my question to you is, do you think
that's because Mormons are particularly adept at speaking to men or rather they had to go outside of the church and create their own organizations to
satisfy that itch they had um for for male training and and community?
I say the latter. I I would say it's the latter on that especially over the last 20 years that they're they're they're they're
looking for something else where there is a message directly to men because that is just doesn't exist. It's it's you know I I wrote an article
recently uh on my Substack and I there was one from pres then Elder Kristofferson in 2016 that was doable
for what I was trying to do but that was the last general conference meeting and that's why it was a message to men. So, I actually had to go back to 2012, which
was also Elder Kristofferson in this one, to be able to find something that I saw was directly, you know, sent to men about their
current circumstances and about what they should do about it. And and I can't find anything since then that that that does because there's no audience.
There's no there's no created audience to actually even have a message that would go to men, right? Yeah, but when
you dr around that, the culture that's around that, you know, fathers bringing their sons with them, going to the steak center and then going grabbing ice cream
afterward or hitting dinner before and and and it's not just the men that liked it, the women loved it. It's like, okay, they get to go out of the house. I get
some time to myself. And I want my boys to be boys. I want my my husbands to be fathers. And this is a time where this
all manifests. They're getting the message directly to men. So I don't think it's a matter of there might be some some voices out there that might be
loud about why are the men getting this meeting or you know I don't know but uh
but I think if you ran a poll most women would loved having general priesthood.
It was it was it was good for them. It was good for their families. So I think that the latter would be the case.
That's my guess. I don't know. But I I think that the messaging has basically dwindled completely away. But the question is the communications too of
the church. The communications of the church whether it's social media or it's anywhere else. It just doesn't exist. And I I didn't mean to cut you off Greg.
I was just kind of pondering what you're saying and wanting to at least contribute. I mean you know so growing up again and my father was a pastor and
they had a men's ministry and they had a women's ministry as well a very robust one um for both um you know just merely having the priesthood and having elers
quorum is not enough. Um and and so because like you know I don't know about you but every word I've been in the sole function of the elders quorum is to help
people move out of their houses to be free labor. There's no other activities virtually. They they try but they don't really do much. Um and again there's a
squeamishness about I think there's a squeamishness about talking to men as men and their particular issues. I mean we don't hear about being a leader in
your home. Uh what it really means to preside. We have a lot of the um you know egalitarian language that's being
kind of emphasized. But if you use the word preside that has a specific theological meaning within the church.
Does a bishop have to talk to his counselors and get their permission to do anything? No. Because he presides and so the the point is is that you know
I just think again the language and the verbiage has shifted so much we've lost the meaning. There's confusion. But I think with you know ordained women for instance and its push back against
priesthood um that's probably one of the reasons they got rid of the general priesthood meeting. Um there's probably a concern that if there's any emphasis
solely on the men and their needs and you don't give equal time to to the women at that specific moment you're going to have a massive feminist
backlash. Um but you're also going to lose again the guys which are the prime group of people that typically leave the
church 18 to 30. And so, you know, you have to do something though to make them feel um like as you said, met on the
issues that they care about. Um, you know, talking about issues. One thing I loved about priesthood when I first joined the church were the the teachings
of the prophets because it was extremely practical um teachings, you know, budgeting, saving, you know, for a rainy
day and working hard and what that meant and struggling. Like, I really got a lot out of that personally. um and and the
provident living, the teachings about provident living and and you know we we can talk so much about these spiritual concepts. Um but what really I think
made the church amazing and it is amazing organization was the fact that it focused a lot on the temporal aspects as well and I think a lot of men would do that. So, it's not only the
messaging, it's activities. Um, and not just looking at men as kind of again, uh, free labor and, uh, people that can
hold callings. You know, you you have to treat them like humans. And, um, and so, you know, ladies, they can probably feel
the same way to some degree and have their own uh, conversation. I'm just speaking as a guy here. Um we need to be more confident and and again understand
that you know there's a massive amount of depression and suicide rates and dissatisfaction in life. Um we have
massive you know crises with affordability with young people. the reason we're not having families formed um you know again are housing prices and
cost of education and the like are some of the some of the contributing factors probably somewhat excuses but um so yeah I would I would love to see again a
general conference priesthood session um I think you know particular direct uh unabashedly uh masculine conversations
and elders quorum um again I pointed out Josiah Trenum I encourage you to listen to him I'm not trying to give him a plug I just think he's a good example of
Yeah, I mean he's great and you could have him on your show. Um he has a huge audience. Um but he's a perfect example of someone that just talks like it is
and he has a massive online following of young men in particular and women. Um a lot of women are now going to the Orthodox church because they want the
guys that want that traditional type of relationship. So um I don't know the answer, man. I think you and I are on the same page on all these issues. I
just I think you're much nicer in the way you say things. And so Well, yeah, I guess. I don't know. I've I've been accused of that before. So,
6 minutesI've been accused of the I I've been accused of the opposite. So, uh you know, I apologize to your listeners. Um I can be kind of hard-edged sometimes and and uh but that's just my nature.
Well, I get that accusation too all the time. So, you can't please everybody, you know. But what is important to me, I think, is that there is awareness. I mean, you have to be able to talk these
things out. If you don't talk these things out, if you don't verbalize all of this, then people just sit there in confusion. You know, there there's
something about getting that out and talking and it's that's what elders quorum should be, right? Get this out and talk actually talk about it. Don't
be embarrassed about it. Actually talk about the issues. Talk about the the practicality of the lesson in your own life. And and
um you know, I I think that I think awareness is a key thing and it's something that Latter- Day Saints don't deal with very well. We we don't talk
about the uncomfortable things. And well, I can tell you I can tell you a perfect example of that. You know, you have, let's say, a family with a bunch
of kids, right? So, you know what the the married couple's hobby is and they just can't say the words Sorry, I bumped my table, but they can't say the word
sex, right? Um there's a squeamishness about like adult conversations. And so, you're you're like, you know, and I use that as
an example because it's one that actually happened. I was they they really they spell it out or use these big euphemisms around that concept.
Um I think that's probably a broad cultural thing where really things that are I don't even think they're uncomfortable. They're just culturally
uncomfortable to talk about like dark things and or things that are very human. Um I just think most or many
Mormons feel really uncomfortable going there.
They want to keep it light and airy and nice and positive. I mean, we're we're rated like the happiest people in America, right? So, I get that you want
to stay in that bandwidth, but right under the surface, yeah, like, you know, ostensively Latter Day Saints don't drink, but they're sure, you know, sure
as crap uh popping percoetses and and and doing psychedelics and doing a lot of things that, you know, we would
probably frown at. I mean, some of the prescription drug usage rates are really high.
A lot of dirty sodas. Yeah. So, you know, there's coping mechanisms, too. So my point is is like we just need to grow
up as a people in that regard. And my hope would be is just, you know, seeing things in the eye, looking them straight on, confronting the the actual situation
and being bold and confident. And if you really believe this is truth, well, to hell with anyone that criticizes it, who
cares, you know? We we need to we need to be bold because you know your boldness, your confidence, your conviction is
what's going to attract people, not your soft and tender mercies and touchyfeiness. Absolutely. I I believe that 100%.
Lance, really appreciate your time and uh what you've talked about. Is there anything else you wanted to get in before?
I mean, no, I think we I think we covered it all. Um but uh but yeah, I mean, if anyone wants to contact me, they're they're welcome to email me, lance.kennedy@gmail.com.
a super easy uh personal email address.
Um I you know I field emails from people all the time. I'm happy to have any conversation really anyone wants to have about any of these topics and I'm really
grateful for the opportunity Greg to to have me on. So yeah, it's about time. I mean we've we've we've talked for online for what several years probably by now.
I think it's like eight years man. It's like it's like it's like I think it was like 2018 or 2019 the first time I reached out to you. So, I've watched
your uh your podcast grow and explode and really proud of you. Awesome, Lance. Appreciate it.