When Safe Spaces Aren't Safe!

Untethered Empathy and Malevolent Compassion are encroaching upon our youth. It sprouts from the therapy industry. Brianna Holmes, a therapist, joins me in talking about the alarming tendency to "affirm" problems in place of offering a charitable truth.

 Raw Transcript

for me I find a great value and distinction between validation and
understanding we don't need validation necessarily to balance those things out can be difficult sometimes especially in
a world today where you have issues of of identity lgbtq issues and what do I do and how do I relate to this and take
care of these issues how do you keep that balance and do you think that that's a very important thing in in what
you're doing in therapy
[Music]
all right here we're going to talk about therapy we're not going to put you through therapy but through the therapy
industry a little bit you know that we talk a lot about untethered empathy and malevolent compassion here on the quick
show they are problems they are carrots that uh the philosophies of men and and woke ideologies use often times to
to corrupt us in in our personality and the things that we're looking for especially within the gospel that's
where it's concerning and so Bri Holmes is a therapist she comes on this show she wrote an article for Public Square
magazine along with Ed Gant who is a BYU professor talking a little bit about
this how can how we overdo compassion sometimes and and it's a hard thing to say because you a lot of people say well
you can't have enough compassion that's not true if it is not if it's malevolent
if it is untethered the truth and and and and is something that is going to push you away from resilience as an
example then it's a problem it's a real problem and so we go into that a little bit the therapy industry uh uh is is
changing and and it's starting to lean in that way toward that untethered empathy and uh and malevolent compassion
so sit and learn about this a little bit we dig into it quite a bit and and we get a therapist point of view on these
things as well now this episode is brought to you by scripture notes you guys know that I talk about this a lot
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about scripture notes and see if it's something for you scripture notes.com here we go all right welcome to Quick
show my name is Greg Matson and I am your host in this episode we've brought on Brianna Holmes therapist and article
writer with someone I really follow a lot Ed Gant Bri welcome to the show thanks for having me all right you guys
wrote an article uh recently in public score magazine called when safe spaces aren't
safe how unconditional acceptance can stifle growth I love this topic I love talking
about this but what I want to really delve into here is talking about the idea of affirmation and what is
love uh you have a number of different uh um phrases that are used here that
we're going to cover as well but tell me first of all what is what is it that initiated the the the article to the the
reasoning behind wanting to write this article well I think uh in a big part it comes down to my
experience in graduate school and kind of how you taught to be a therapist
really which is you know they don't really care like what modality you use
what type of therapy whether it's cognitive behavioral or emotionally focused therapy they don't care about that but what they care about is
unconditional positive regard and that's kind of the Crux of this article as you
read it is how you know you are taught that you never make any judgments about
anything that anyone ever talks about in therapy which you know I think in on a
surface level makes sense right you certainly don't want someone to be coming and talking to you about their
lives and them feel judged or condemned or anything like that right but this is
where for me I find a great value and distinction between
validation and understanding and we don't need validation necessarily
which in a very simple way can sometimes seek to justify behaviors what we need
is understanding and if you feel like you have someone who understands you and cares about you that comes across very
differently and so it's just the very basic unit of All Therapy is that notion
of unconditional positive regard this completely unbiased blank slay sort of
therapy where people get validated in their experiences now I'm putting it sort of
simplistically but that can be a big problem when you're trying to sort
through difficult experiences in your life so this is this is kind of and
again this is the correct of our discussion here it's there is a reason as you say to do this and it's the same
thing I I always take this idea of therapy and I put it out into what does it look like in a relationship you know
in in because it it applies so much to your relationships in your family or even in business or friends Etc this
idea of an unconditional positive regard is like look I am I don't want to judge
you but and other words I can have an unconditional love which is something
else we need to talk about where where I'm always I'm there for you right I want you to know I'm there for you like
a parent I need you to know that I can be an anchor for you regardless of what you've done or regardless of a decision
that you've made I want you to be able to talk to me that's really important so there's got to be some kind of space there that says as you saying here some
kind of safe space where a friend a child a a business colleague can say
yeah I need to be able to talk to you that's going to be an important thing at the same time it's not like free game it's not
it's not I'm not if I've got a friend that has done something really wrong I'm not just going to say hey UB
be you right that which is really a a lot of where I think our culture is going to the today is just you be you
you can you you define your own self and be yourself and there are no guard rails
Etc um where do you make that distinction in in therapy and because
obviously from a gospel perspective there are guard rails right
and and I think that we know that as you stated in here in the article you know wickedness never was happiness MH I
think it gets a little trickier from like an actual therapy therapeutic perspective because so much of it is
working with people in context right and so we can make a lot of broad brush
Strokes of like what this looks like but ultimately it really comes down to the individual that you're working with I
think you hit on something that is so important which is unconditional love
versus unconditional positive regard you know there's a difference there and in a
big way I think you know through Christ's example we see that unconditional love is actual honesty
right when we're honest with people now that doesn't necessarily mean that we're rude or we're
condeming um but there is a level of honesty and Clarity that comes
from unconditional love right if you have a family member
who's dealing with an addiction right that's impacting their lives and is impacting everyone around
them is the loving thing to do to say oh yeah you go off and do you it's okay or
is it to say hey like this may be a problem can we talk about this and can
we maybe find help and resources for you and so that's clearly maybe a little
more extreme example but when you get into a therapeutic space that unconditional love is important right
knowing that the person that you're working with like genuinely cares about you is a keystone of a positive
therapeutic relationship without that it just doesn't work but that doesn't mean that
there's no judgment and what I mean by judgment is not Judgment of the person
but a judgment call on behavior and action right which is really more discernment and it's like hey help me
understand this like why did you do this and explain it to me and can we have some dialogue around this can we maybe
look at some different perspectives and that comes across very differently from
a place of love than it does from a place of condemnation which is I think where you have to walk that fine line
really carefully is there a Temptation in therapy to just validate and just say
be and what I mean by that is make someone feel good about
themselves regardless of their decisions affirm what they're doing
and I I I I I I I hate to say it but it's it's a way of it's a way of
Perpetual visits sometimes perhaps I mean I hope that I'm not that way so I
don't know that um I could necessarily speak to that but I mean there is there
is an interesting relationship with therapy where therapists are incentivized to have people coming back
to them like it's a form of income and also I think when you actually talk to
most therapists i' say most right there is a community of people just wanting
what's best for the people that they work with so certainly there are people out there who are Maybe incentivized by
that I'm not saying that there's not but at least in the vast number of people
that I work with they'd be like yeah sure um I would love for people not to need me I would love love to find a
different way to help people and also there are some who are looking for this kind of help and I can help and so
certainly there is that balance and I think as a therapist you always have to be cognizant of that uh but I think as
far as validation right there's this element of you do need to have a good
relationship with the person that you're working with right they're not going to come in on your first session and you're not going to be like here's all the
things that I'm noticing like you don't even know them at that point and there like an element of culating a good
relationship with each and once you have that good relationship the dialogue can look
different um but it's always a balance between I think that validation which I
would really characterize as more understanding right if I have someone coming in and they're exploring a
situation with a family member that was really hard you know they don't necessarily want me to validate and be
like you were totally right you know like you you did the right thing they were totally in the wrong what they're looking for is more of understanding
right I think well I don't know are they that's I mean I would say so okay um cuz
I don't think that people I like to think the best of people and I like to
think that people are fundamentally good and so I don't think that they want to come in and ruin their family
relationships you know what I mean I think that's true I mean I again I I don't know much about therapy and in
being involved with it but is I know human nature right and human
nature would say sometimes for me I I know sometimes I mean if I'm in a discussion with my wife I want to be
right right I I want to be validated I want to be right and so do do you sometimes have it would seem to me that
as a therapist you would want to get part of what you'd want to
know fairly quickly is the incentive or or the uh what what what is is driving
this person to come in what are they looking for right and sometimes it would
I would imagine sometimes it's validation I I don't know but what don't you need to distinguish that discern
that at the beginning I think so um if I'm understanding your question correctly I
think you know you always have that conversation around like what does bring you into therapy what are you looking
for and ultimately you do want the therapy that you do to align
with what goals they have and I would say most often the answer that I receive is I just want to feel better I want to
feel more functional right you have someone that comes in experiencing debilitating depression right their answer to me has
unanimously been I just would like to feel even a little better than I do dayto day and so we have more broadscape
understanding of things um in that realm right like I just want to do what's
better and what will help me get better in some capacity um and sometimes that is interpreted as
validation right it can be but sometimes it's also hey like let's Workshop this what can we do to help what about your
lifestyle what about like habits how can we change some of these things to help improve quality of life that does come
from um understanding of like the debilitating effect that such depression
can have but it also comes from let's have a discussion about these patterns
and habits in your life that may be contributing to your experience that's a
that can be a tough conversation and it can be helpful too uh and so there is
that delicate balance of fundamentally understanding someone in their experience and recognizing how hard it
is and then also being like okay like what can we do to help cuz ultimately I
would say success in therapy really comes down to the person who's investing in it in a big way right like I meet
with people for an hour a week sometimes two depending on what kind of therapy we're doing uh and so much of the work
that they do is outside of therapy whether or not they're going to apply what we talk about whether or not they're going to
absorb things from therapy and make those
changes how do you how do you keep people how do you stay away from that validation and not you know as you've
got the uh well one of the titles here on this is Echo Chambers and validation
and therapy how do you stay out of an echo chamber with with someone who's coming in for
therapy and and I'm trying to apply this a little bit more I guess to a parent and child scenario as well but how
because you've got to create as you say the the relationship where they can
trust in you right but you also may need to be pushing back and
and trying to direct them down a different path that they may not want to go I that may may be the original reason
they're there is they they're not yet willing to do what they need to do to
make the change okay can you help me understand maybe the context that you're wanting to
put it in with like parent child well like with parent child it would be be just affirmation right I'm going to
affirm what you're doing everything is there there is a huge movement these days and I'm not sure exactly where all of this comes from I have some idea of
this and I can't remember the names but it's there of those that are kind of driving this but it's for example there
is a a big movement of affirmation to and and non and consent on everything
that is done in a parent child relationship I consent do can I can I change your diapers can I you know even
starting this off when they're little babies and can I uh uh help you get dressed right now can I it's hugely into
consent and affirmation of what they're already doing can
you if I'm if I'm wanting
to uh if I'm coming into therapy and I've got a problem and I have not been able to make the
change right how do you help bridge that right from
okay I don't want to make the change that's maybe why I'm here to getting to having them make the
change does that make sense a lot of a lot of blabber on H I mean I think
um correct me if I'm misunderstanding your question or am not right in my answer but it I think the notion that we
can make someone do anything is actually false mhm right like I cannot make
anyone do any in therapy sure right and I think you know with my own kids even I
cannot make my kids do anything my kids would be like uh what you trying to do Mom like okay you know but there are
boundaries in there right with my kids but when we talk about teaching
principles or we talk about helping people change I do think that that
fundamentally comes from love right cuz we can provide feedback whether it be
our own children or family members or you know the people that I work with in therapy we can provide feedback we can
provide information we can even provide tools right we can assist we can provide
help um but if they are not invested and making that change for themselves it
won't matter like I can't work harder than someone in therapy than they are
willing to work if that makes sense and so I think for me my mentality around
that is when people are ready to make change I'm there and when they're not ready to
make change I'm still there that doesn't mean that you know we're going to ignore
the fact that there are things going on in their lives that we can help with but it does mean that we can we can validate
that it is hard we can validate that making those changes is hard but do we necessary necessarily have to affirm
this reality that change is impossible and that this just is what it is and that I need to accept it or you know my
life is always going to be the same no and also we can recognize and still
provide love to people that are not ready for that and who need to be able
to make that decision on their own right
is but then why are they there I think because if you
have if you have a desire to change even if you feel incapable of making it is
not going and having one supporting you while you're even working up the desire
to make those changes not valuable MH right I've worked with a few people for
longer than a year and I would say that sometimes it can feel pretty frustrating you're like what are we doing in therapy
every week like feel like we're going through the same thing right but then we get to a point where like okay and now
I'm ready mhm and then we're like bam we're doing all this work and so I don't think that you can um what's the word I'm looking
for I don't think that you can um deny
the concept of just like being there for someone even when it's really
hard right yeah that provides an environment where they feel like they can make that decision like someone who
can see you at your worst and love you at your worst and care for you in your worst and stick with you through your worst is someone who can support you
while you're trying to make the changes to become your best and I think that that can be a really beautiful opportunity and I don't necessarily
think that that's exclusive to therapy either some people find that in therapy some people find that in family members
and honestly I think all of us should find that in Jesus MH um and that's
really who we should be orienting oursel towards in making changes but therapy
can help so where is where so coming back again to that space where
it's uh there may not be they're not ready to change
right where does then motivation come in or providing the motivation or helping
to unsee the motivation right so in other words and and you have in
the gospel the concept of you know coercion is
bad but Friendly Persuasion is good right so where does that persuasion come
in to say maybe challenge is is is something that can be placed in there or
or um some type of incentive of do you see why this would
work right do you see why this change is important so in other words what I'm saying is is there is a even though
someone may not be ready M I'm thinking of my own kids with
things I think it's still there's still a responsibility
to move the needle in some way without a corion right yeah of course and and I
think um I maybe have a little different perspective on what it means to persuade or what it means to draw people closer
to truth essentially is what we're we're getting at right and I think that that
ultimately comes from the kind of people that we are right like why why are we
fundamentally attracted to Jesus Christ why does our relationship with him means
so much to us and it's because he does fundamentally love us and because of who
he is MHM right he can talk about gospel principles he can talk about all these
things but none of that really matters unless he's the kind of person that actually lives that so in a way he is
the perfect example because he models for us the way to go and change and be
in the world right he is a perfect mirror and in no way is a therapist
going to be that for someone I want to be clear cuz you know we're all people but when we talk about
persuading people it is drawing people back to simple truths right like there's
so many times during you know phases of therapy with people I'm like hey like I'm noticing a pattern here would this
be something that we can explore or hey like this has come up again can we paint
like a bigger picture of this right and so there is a gentle nudge
in um bringing people to see the bigger picture and like hey like this is is
what we're noticing maybe this will help but ultimately what people decide to do
with that is up up to them right like even Christ can only persuade us so much
right he just lays the information out there and he loves us and we choose
whether or not to come to him now again right like in no way does therapy
necessarily meant or in no way is therapy meant to replace that kind of relationship
but I think that generally looking at how Christ loves us and how he brings about change is the blueprint for what
change actually looks life like regardless of where you're at and so in therapy being able to provide a safe
space again doesn't mean this unconditional positive regard where you are affirmed in every decision that you
ever make and da d d da right what it means is this is a loving and caring
environment where I understand you and I know who you are and I know the kind of
person that you are and also that means that we can have honest conversations
about patterns and behaviors and things that we're noticing in the like kindest
most loving way yeah because it's you know this is something I talk a lot about not in a
therapeutic um uh um centered way but it's
it's our culture right now because of of many things but it's it's it's it's
moving much more toward a
um let's say a grace-based view of things is all of Christianity is right
into into an area of of grace-based um God loves me I want God's love I need
God's love which is all very important M but um there's another side of the coin
right to all of this in other words if all I know is that God loves me mhm
which is crucial and is foundational but I'm not actually willing to love himh right I'm
not willing to do what I need to do I'm not willing to make the changes I am
that's it's God's love for me is not going to be enough MH right that doesn't
move the needle for me it it might make me feel good and it might comfort me
me and and it is absolutely necessary to be there in the first place I mean if you don't know God loves you that's a
problem and and and to move forward would be tough and again I'm moving yeah I'm taking therapy in the gospel here
and and conflating them but it's um God is Grace and Truth right he's
Grace and Truth and if you don't have both of those in place you're you're going to you're
going to be untethered right you can have an untethered in therapy I would say and
this is another thing I talk a lot about but you can have an untethered empathy you could have an untethered empathy that is not going to be anchored in
anything yeah it would be like uh compassion without morals I would say um
I think that that's um I'm trying to remember the author I
can't remember but it was an article that I read where he was talking about compassion without morals and I think um
what comes to mind for me uh my father-in-law is super awesome and he recommended this book and I think
it's I think the author is John Mark comr or something he's a pastor of a church non Latter Day Saint but really
cool Insight he wrote the elimination of hurry he just came out with this book about how to be a disciple of Christ and
one of the things that he talks about in that book which I think is a really cool
discussion point for what you were just um talking about is he says we have this tension between like grace and works you
know um and it doesn't necessarily need to be there now
um Grace and effort are 100% compatible
Grace and effort like if you believe in Jesus Christ if you fundamentally have a relationship with
him you are going to draw closer to him like Grace and effort that is effort that is effort in a relationship right
now if we go into like Grace and proving that's not the message of the
Gospel right we don't have to prove our worth we don't have to prove that we're worthy of love like God's love is there
and it exists for us we have more access to it we can feel it we can receive more
of it when we put more effort into the relationship right and I think that that is fundamentally true for any
relationship that we have not just with god um if you think of a marital
relationship ship right if you don't put effort into your relationship are you
going to feel the love that is there no you're not well it's impossible I
mean and you know the gospel and I think a lot of you know because therapy so much of it has to do with relationships
right and and the gospel is all about relationships I mean even the covenants that we make in the temple and all that we're doing there is all about building
a relationship faith is I believe should be looked at 100% as Trust
and and it's it's about a relationship you even have the the roles that are
given um in the scriptures about Christ being the the bridegroom and and the church or the members of the church
being being the bride same type of thing it's a marital idea of a covenant type of relationship and if I'm saying you
know you know because I know there's so much sometimes of of of those that would come in to talk to you that are they
need to feel more love somehow right they need more love and and that's an important thing
um but it seems to me in the church also paralleling that
that there's another side of that coin still right and there's there there is
the medicine sometimes is not just okay well I need more love the medicine would
be well maybe what what about you were if you were giving love you if I came to my wife and I just was constantly saying
well what have you done for me lately MH that's not going to work real well and it's really not good medicine for me to
to to get more and more and more and more from her right it it's well what
are the two great Commandments love God and and love your neighbor right it's like where can I give where is the
reciprocity how do I I if I'm all Grace and no Works say so
to speak and then then it seems to me like it's very I'm so focused on me
that I'm blocking Solutions I'm blocking medicine so to speak well and I think
and and this is where it can be very contextual and we're talking in more
broad Strokes here um but at a base level right if if we're trying to fill a
sense of worth by like someone else's love MH it's just
not going to work no it's and so if like let's say we're going to
use marriage as an example CU that's what we're running with right um if I am
in a relationship you know with my husband and I never feel good enough and
I never feel worthy of love and I'm and I'm having all these insecurities and doubt and I need him to constantly
remind me like I do love you like you are worthy of love right like is that not me using my husband to fill
something within myself that he cannot actually fill right when we have when we're
trying to fill a sense of worth and confidence that's not going to come from my husband that's going to come from my
relationship with God and an understanding of who I am fundamentally and I that goes back to you know the
plain and simple truths of the Gospel president Nelson Has continually emphasized to us you know
the identities that matter most are that you're a child of God you're a disciple of Christ
and you're a child of the Covenant and if we have a firm understanding of those things if we know in our souls that we
are a child of God and we have an understanding of God's love for us we
can be filled with that love right and that is where the opportunity to give
comes from a place of abundance rather than from a deficit right like if you
allow God's love to fill you which is an infinite kind of love you will never run short on being able to
give yeah and you know again I bring that up more because I I this is
something that that culturally in the west especially in the United States I just feel that
there is a a there's a needle that we're moving toward one side of the Spectrum which is
all uh it is it's it's rather narcissistic quite frankly right and and
it's moving more and more toward you you you you you be you you have your own truth a
very postmodern approach to kind of uh um you know which is everyone has their
own truth and all that's going to matter then is going to be power it it it's just it's an issue of uh there is no
Central anchor to truth and and so if I'm not Tethered to that then I'm just
looking for what I can get for myself right um and I think that that happens in the church I think it happens
within the church and I think it can happen within how a therapist treats
those that they're speaking to if they're swept along with that that
mentality and and that can be very true right and I think that this is where I
always encourage people to be picky about who they work with right even people that come to me and are meeting
me for the first time I'm like I might not be your flavor of therapist that's okay but um one of the things that I do
encourage people to to find is not someone who's going to just affirm but
someone who they just feel like they have a connection with and who they feel like they can create an actual safe
place which is I can explore the deepest and hardest parts of myself in a place
of love and understanding while also receiving helpful feedback mhm right
like that is actually a safe place and that's I think that's actually the kind
of safe place that Christ provides for us right I think um not to get like
super personal but I remember there was a time in my life relatively recent
where I just felt so overwhelmed with anger over something that had happened
in my life MH and I was so angry and I and I kind of
felt like I pushed Christ away from me and was like you can't love me in this you know what I mean like I'm so angry
this is not consistent with love or whatever and I just remember having this experience where I felt like
he was there with me and he's like girl I can love you in your anger I can be here for you and instead of like turning
and walking away I just felt like that love from him and was then able to kind of drink my
own bitter cup and deal with my anger about this and realize where I needed to
change my own perspective now again right when we look at that I think that
that is the ultimate type of space that we want to create for anyone which is
that we can love people in their depression we can love people in their anxiety we can love people in their
anger we can love them in their mistakes and also be like I'm not going to walk
away from you because you are showing these deep dark hard parts right I can
be here for you in this and that's the ultimate like type of love that you want to have but again that is fundamentally
different from the type of sa spaces that contemporary Western
psychology would have you create yes so going to that point Carl
Rogers MH okay um as you WR in here father of modern Psychotherapy with a
theory of person centered therapy talk a little bit about person Center therapy and how much has this affected the the
the I the therapeutic industry I don't know what to called it but how much has that been affected by Carl Rogers oh so
much like there is no Therapy Program in America that
you will find that does not emphasize uh person Center therapy like
I said at the beginning right you can do whatever modality you want it doesn't matter you can do CBT you can do this
you can do that the one thing that you always need to have a flavor of the one thing that you always need to hold as a
therapist is person- centered therapy um now Ed Gant is way more versed in the
effects of reran therapy reran thought Theory I have more of a um a surface
level understanding I mean I worked with Ed for a long time during my undergrad but certainly am not versed in all the
depths of the effects as he is um but I see it on the Practical level where that
was the way that you are taught to do therapy fundamentally at least in my
program that was my experience and and how do you view it I mean in other words where do you stand with it um I think I
like to take what is true and leave the rest okay so what's true I would say
that not having read a ton of his actual direct Works which is different than how
people have carried Rogers mhm um what we take away from it is exactly
the principle that we've been talking about which is we can create a space where people can feel like they can
bring their whole selves to therapy right we they can bring their whole selves and there's a level of trust
there's a level of trust that's what I take away from it but how it has been distorted again how it has been like
perpetuated from then to now like by followers by people who' studied him and
perpetuated his work has been um you make no judgments you
validate you affirm and people have everything that they need to figure it out you don't
need to really tell them and in in some regards that is true
there is a there is value in people kind of working through things on their own
however I would say that fundamentally um that's just it's not possible to be an unbiased person right
like you can try as much as you want in therapy to be unbiased it's just not actually possible
to be completely objective and so this notion that people aren't making judgment calls or that they're not
Discerning events or circumstances is actually just fundamentally not true cuz we're always
making a judgment call and that's where I think that we have to be super open
and recognize that we are people and we are fundamentally biased in some capacity right so let me bring this up
here this is something that and this might be more ed than you on on this part of the article but it says Rogers himself argued that in order for the
individual to fully to be fully free to be themselves in therapy the therapist
must create an environment of unconditional acceptance and radical
tolerance or to use more recently popularized term a safe space yeah yeah is that what is radical
tolerance I mean I would I would say that it's probably
consistent with what we kind of see in like just
the broader culture generally which is you have to love me exactly how I am you
have to accept me exactly how I am you have to be okay with whatever it is that
I'm doing and you can't speak against me in doing that you can't provide feedback
about what I'm doing or you just don't love me now that that does feel extreme right
when we talk about it so succinctly like that and I would say that most people
generally don't view it that way but when we're talking about a concept that
is pervading like our therapeutic culture I would say that that still is there in a
fundamental sense um but perhaps not that extreme but still in like those
little flavors of it we see evidence of that and how people conduct themselves
now I don't know every single therapist in the state of Utah I don't know every single therapist that works here but I
think I like to give the benefit of the doubt and recognize that most therapists understand that that's not actually a
safe space you talk to anyone um or at least the people that I've talked to and they know that providing feedback
providing some challenges on perspectives is actually a really helpful part of
therapy and that's actually why um group therapy is a really really cool way to
find Healing because you're with a bunch of people and you very naturally get interpersonal feedback from
that um which different perspectives and yes maybe uh context and and
support on truth I would say right ex yeah and it's it's not like a vacuum
it's not this Echo Tamer it's it's this place where people are being with real people and I think you know that's
somewhat what is missing in one-on-one therapy cuz you know actually I only have so much of a perspective when I'm
only talking to one person right um if I have a client who comes in and is talking about their marriage right
issues in their marriage I I actually only have one side of the story mhm and
I'm very cognizant of that and and try to balance perspective and feedback in
that way but without more context without more perspective right there's only so much that you actually know when
you're talking with an individual and so it can be a tight line to walk but that's why different kinds of modality
like group therapy it's kind of underrated in my opinion I think but um that's why that interpersonal feedback
is actually so helpful but that's kind of fundamentally at odds with what Carl
Rogers is denoting as a safe space right MH yeah and and and and that brings us
over to another another concept which I'd like to get your feedback on which is
unconditional love right what does that mean and you know I remember actually uh
president Nelson back when he was an apostle actually stated that he doesn't
believe that the God God even is an example has an conditional love okay
um so what what what are your thoughts on that I mean cuz and I think a lot of
this goes back to what is the definition of love because in a modern Western
World we look at it as a feeling mostly how do I feel about you how do I feel
you feel about me right um anciently as an example when we read in scriptures and things like
that it was much different right it was much more about the relationship and it was more about about action mhm and we
can see that sometimes in you know God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son right it's it's a it's what
does he do right it's it's a love is as an issue of what do you do for things so how do
how do you see unconditional love um I see unconditional love not so much as
unconditional I see it as perfect love and if I'm remembering correctly I
actually think that that's how Elder Christopherson defined it in a recentish
conference talk I am not good with sources I'm good with remembering phrases though but when we talk about
perfect love I think that that is actually at least for me a more accurate
term of like how God loves us it's a perfect love um and I don't think that
that means that his love has conditions but I do think um
I'm trying to think of how to put this in a very succinct way right but I'm going to use marriage as an example
again MH right um been married to my husband for almost 10 years now and when
you enter into you know a marriage covenant right it's it's more than just
the feeling of Love obviously like I had a lot of Loving Feeling towards him you know I'm a little Twitter pated um but
it is like this abiding deep commitment and trust and Loy y to one another that
um like the feeling like that that feeling of lacking someone that feeling of loving someone um actually makes
stronger form that didn't make sense but the point is right is like you don't always necessarily feel these loving
liking feelings towards your partner but you can feel the commitment love and trust that comes from that kind of a
relationship now I there's expectations in my relationship MH he's not dating
other women while we're married right yeah not a good thing not a good thing right he's not um having another family
outside of you know he's he's committed to me I'm committed to him he provides
for our family we work as a team um we both take care of our children we're
both very involved in their lives and those are uh somewhat expectations that we
have of each other in our relationship now do we always execute those perfectly
and no in the sense of sometimes I am more present with the kids sometimes
he's more present with the kids but we're working together on cultivating this environment but it's that notion of
Grace and effort right we're putting effort into our relationship therefore we feel more of the love that we have
for one another I think that that is a example
of how God's love is if we're not putting effort into our relationship
with God are we going to feel his love as keenly as if we
were and I think that that's where it comes down to are we keeping the promises that we make to God are we
living a life that draws us closer to him right and that kind of effort allows
us to feel more of God's love simply because we're just closer to him it's not that his love isn't there when we're
not it's it's our ability to feel it and receive that love well isn't it also I
mean let's let's say that I've got I mean do you have kids yeah okay so I've
got kids too and and and so as a parent and I've got adult kids it's
there's loving is you know everything we think
about it you know all the virtues patience and everything else but there's so much in in in in marriage also that
has to do with sacrifice right that has to do with patience that has to do with
effort that has to do I I would suggest it has to do with payment in some ways
in an emotional and maybe spiritual type of an economy it's it's there there is
payment that is there that you're giving it's just like what Christ did right I think if we're looking at the
ultimate Act of love it's the
atonement right and and that atonement is payment that atonement is sacrifice
that atonement is effort that atonement is commitment right and and so when I
look at love and I see that I I again I I I just feel that we lose so much in
our modern times about an understanding of what you're willing to do and what
you do for someone is your actual display manifestation of the
love that you have for them I can say I love someone but when the rubber hits the
road and it's actually this is you know I I need to
show it I I need to do it yeah well if your spouse says that they love you and
they keep cheating on you yeah are you going to believe them sure right but I think that we also need to get away from
seeing love or a relationship with Christ is
some kind of payment and what I mean by that is we tend to think of the
atonement of Jesus Christ as like this abstract metamorphosis event or whatever
but it really was like Jesus Christ himself who executed it right and I think uh Terell given who I love and
admire greatly for his work has impacted my life greatly um he talks about an
understanding of the atonement of Jesus Christ which is very different than maybe like this penal substitution type
of understanding of Aton and I think that
ultimately there is love manifested an effort right our ability to feel of
Christ's love is based on our willingness to also draw closer to him
that doesn't mean that it's inaccessible to us that doesn't mean that it's not there but we're not going to feel it if
we're not not putting effort into that kind of a relationship and so when we talk about effort of course there's
effort of course there's requirements of course you know there's those importance
in manifestation right but if you love someone you are naturally going to show
it through your action right through your effort works like Works Without Love Is
Dead love without works is dead right right they go hand in hand and I think
that that is a more full understanding because again love is Manifest in action
and if we love our spouse it's going to come through and how we treat them it's
that kind of modeling like are my kids going to know that my husband and I love each other if we don't act like it sure
if we don't show them day by day how we care for each other no is are my kids
going to understand how I love Christ if I'm not putting in
effort to draw closer to him if I'm just talking at them about gospel principles
and not living my life according to them there's a fundamental like separation there like why do you talk about this
and don't do it it bring true yeah and I think that you you can bring it even closer though
and and and I think that it's when I say payment that might sound crude but and
maybe just sacrifice is a better word but you know when he says come
follow me I don't think he's saying do what I sayh right he's saying do what I do
exactly yeah right he walk in my footsteps and and his footsteps are sacrifice his footsteps are effort his
footsteps are and I'll say payment even though it sounds kind of crude but it's it's I don't I don't mean it in just in
a transactional sense but um drawing closer to him I think is understanding
him MH right it's knowing him and the way we know him is knowing what he did
and and way we know what he did is doing what he did I think right so we walk in
his footsteps we do those things I have a a very different idea after 36 years
of marriage MH and and and four kids going through all phases of life
of what love is than I did 30 years ago yeah right be because I have had to
stretch and I have had to and and I understand what I'm really willing to do
for my family as an example right because and and I feel that I know God a
little better because I am in those situations and I have to do those things I you know
I don't have to but I sense that regardless of the difficulty of certain
situations the love I have for individuals or my family
especially I'm going to do those things and I think what you describing is kind
of this balance of sacrifice and love like what what does Love Actually mean
right and and I would say there are plenty of people who have families who
have children who work really hard to provide for them but then fundamentally feel like
their family's a burden or they resent them in some way mhm right and so yeah sacrifice is important but also
the manner in which you do it is also important everything that we do can be done through a lens of perfect love
including providing feedback for people right like if my kid's walking towards a
cliff I am going to be like whoow what you doing and like my my 2-year-old
bless his heart he likes to do all sorts of crazy things like that can
legitimately hurt like I swear he's almost died like two or three times he's into things very and he always gets so
mad at me when I pull him away from the things that are going to hurt him you know um but that is loving right that is
part of my job as a parent now as he gets older that job changes you you know if you see your kid as an adult walking
towards the other edge of a cliff you want to pull them back but in a fundamental sense they're adults they have their autonomy right um and so
you're like hey there's a cliff over there there's a cliff over there and oh I'm fine there's a No Love is Manifest
in speaking truth fundamentally but also just sacrifice
without that perfect love also brings Joy like if you have a family and you've sacrificed and you've worked and you
resent them for it are they going to feel that love and that sacrifice in the
way that you want them to probably not yeah and that's that can be really hard
right for for people because that's again if there's and I think about especially mothers MH where there is
such a a demand for constant attention to the children and bringing them them
up and and then if there's you know
it's kind of like this is kind of like being like like Christ I think to some degree right because there is such a
sacrifice and there is such so much given it it there while there's joy and
and what those children become and who they are and how they live their lives and and what the good things that happen to them there's probably never going to
be that well that you have dug for them has is probably never going to be filled
mm right I don't think that the reciprocity equals what you give oh no
right as as a parent I think my mother bless her soul I love her we have a
great relationship but I don't think that I fully appreciated her and I still
don't think I fully appreciate her you know cuz she's been a mother much longer than I am but I I
think being a mom myself when I started to have my own kids I developed such a
different feeling of Love towards my own mom yes and being like wow okay this is really hard and
you know I can see that there are things that I maybe would have liked to be different you know as all kids are wantan to have towards their par those
feelings you know oh this could have been better this could have been better but when I started to have my own kids I
was like that is true but this is also really hard so I understand why those things didn't you know what I mean it's
like oh this is how it is oh this is how it is and so I think that that's also
that what you're talking about is also just rout by experience and that's ultimately what this Earth life is for
we're told you know we're commanded to have children pattern of heaven right we
talk about the family proclamation or we talk about you know the Plan of Salvation is very family Centric MH the
the intent in having families isn't for this type of self fulfillment right like
you don't have kids to make yourself feel better that's actually not like yeah Godly relationship right you
don't have these children for your own purposes right that doesn't mean that you don't enjoy them and that you don't
experience them and that you don't have like a sense of worth from raising them but that's not your fundamental intent
your fundamental intent is to give them life to teach them truth and to help
them grow and cultivate their own experiences right but in the family proclamation it says children are
entitled to families it doesn't say parents are entitled to Children mhm
right if you choose to bring a child into the world that's a sacrifice that
you've also said that you're willing to make and recognize that there's no way that your child can ever repay you back
for what you're doing that's not like when you try to make it an exchange that that's just not going to
cultivate a good relationship yeah yeah agreed I want to finish with this and going back to the
idea of love and and and charity you know a perfect love and what it means and it's you've got in here uh talking
about kind of going along with this idea of of being vengeful or resentful if we
leave the word happiness as the world would Define it then we may miss the purpose of Our Lives life is not about
preventing the vindictive Judgment of a vengeful God rather it is about who we
become and so from the eyes of a therapist or a parent or anybody else in a relationship and what you're doing
that that I think is is the key in understanding things and this is what
I've understood as a parent as I've gotten older
charity first of all does not accept iniquity it does not accept things that aren't true it is Tethered completely to
truth but it also never faileth right and to have that
balance I think is really an aha moment for me in understanding
how you treat someone and and and and how far you're willing to go and yet how
tethered you are to truth to balance those things out can be difficult sometimes especially in a world today
where you have you know you have issues of of identity lgbtq issues and you know
what do I do and how do I uh uh uh relate to this and and and take care of
these issues um how do you keep that balance and do you think that that's a very important thing in in what you're
doing in therapy I think so um I really wanted to find this verse because as you
were talking it got brought to my mind um it's in SE Doctrine Covenant
section 88 when we talk about God essentially like what the verse says is
what doth it profit a man to be given a gift that he is not willing to receive
right and I think that in doctor in Covenant 88 it's talking about you know the different kingdoms of Glory what
people are willing to receive and I think that's ultimately what we're really getting at
with safe spaces and with perfect love right is people have to be willing to
receive perfect love people have to be willing to receive feedback which I think
ultimately is perfect when when done in the right way feedback chastening God talks about it frequently in scriptures
as a loving them whom the Lord loveth he chasen CH now as a therapist I certainly
don't want to put myself in the position of God right like I am no like nowhere
near am I trying to compare that relationship but we can take a lot of cues from how God actually loves us and
the way that he helps us change and that is in perfect love while also providing
feedback mhm and providing an abundance of Love while he does that
cuz we actually can't grow if people don't show us where the dry spots are you know if you're thinking of like a
plant right like there's prunings and there's weeds and there's things that you have to take care of in order for
the plant to grow right and that's very much so I think the intent with with any
chastening is done it's with the intent to help someone grow and I think that
that is the mindset that we have to have around therapy is sometimes truths are
hard but when they come from a person who you feel like genuinely cares about you that's the
difference that's the one two punch I speak I me guess probably the wrong phrase to use but it's like that's if
you if you have built trust and that person knows you care about them then
you can deliver truth exactly right you can deliver that truth in a way that is
not like oh you're I've got this is a microaggression for me or this is it's like if you can build the relationship
and build the trust and build the love then you can deliver truth to someone which is
really again I don't think that you are offering charity the true true Pure Love
Of Christ without giving truth I don't think you can no and I think you're exactly right
in that like truth is fundamentally connected to love mhm
and the difference is is that once again therapists are not God they're not Jesus
they're imperfect fallible people and so sometimes that is more of a discussion
your a therapist isn't going to get it right every time they're not always going to give you perfect feedback
they're not always going to notice every single pattern in your life but that's where therapy can be a
dialogue and that's where you can take the truth from those types of dialogues and apply them into your life
you can use discernment you can cultivate a good relationship with a
person that you're working with cuz again they're not God they're not going
to be a perfect mirror but what they can do is still provide a safe space they
can still give a lot of love and understanding and also be like hey
I'm noticing these things right that's the type of environment that you can look for when you're trying to find a
good therapist is not Perfection is not complete validation at all times at all costs
right but it is this place where I feel like I can have an honest conversation with this person and I feel like I can
tell them when I think they got it wrong but I also feel like I can take their feedback with a whole lot of love too
yeah it is such a balance and such a contextual thing I think yeah again that's that's it's it's it's why I like
talking about therapy because I think it's just it's a great uh way to talk
about these gospel principles it's a great way to talk about relationship it's a great way to go through this
because therapy has made mistakes it does make mistakes but it's also when
when you walk your way through it it's an understanding I believe about truth and relationship and that's what the
gospel is about right Bri thank you so much for your time I really appreciate it uh and uh maybe we'll have you back
thanks for having me I