This is a fascinating discussion! Bruce Porter's current research is on a hierarchy of Eternal Law all the way down to Principles and Policies. Bruce gives it straight and direct as per usual.
Have we culturally become communicators of Principles in place of Eternal Laws in the Church? To me, this is obvious. How often do we hear about Exaltation anymore or Eternal Truths such as Mercy Cannot Rob Justice?
Are Doctrines truths? Are the Commandments doctrine? This is a great analysis and discussion on truth vs. culture in the Church.
before we get into new research from Bruce Porter I want to talk about a Day of Reckoning this is the Isaiah
institute's virtual conference this Saturday March 30th you can learn more
about Isaiah learn more about the Book of Mormon the keynote speaker is Abraham gilotti the Hebrew and Isaiah scholar
wouldn't it be nice to pull back the veil just a little bit and understand what Isaiah is saying and what he is
saying about our day go to book Book of Mormon Isaiah SLC conference see you
[Music]
there all right welcome to Quick show my name is Greg Matson and I am your host in this episode we bring back Bruce
Porter to talk about eternal laws Eternal truths and all those things that come
Downstream of these I don't want to call them principles because one of them is princip
but Bruce welcome to the show uh thank you Greg it's great to be here I'm I'm excited for uh to be able to talk a
little bit about these things it's it's it's just current research that I've been doing so it's going to be fun yeah
so I've had a talk chance to talk to you a little bit about this and so I've got a list of kind of what you've put together here um this is tell me more
about how you came up with this um in pulling this and extracting it I'm guessing it's primarily from the
Scriptures it is I I I just went through the scriptures we always talk about Commandments as laws or doctrines and I
realized that command I knew Commandments were not doctrines and so I I tried to work it
backwards from that point from Commandments back to things that can't change Commandments can change through a
um uh through Revelation and things like that as we see with the law of Moses those kind of things can change and so I
want just kind of move backwards until I realize that there were what I would call Eternal laws that cannot cannot
change that just can't change no matter what we want or what we think there's Eternal laws and then there's Eternal
truths and then there's doctrines and then Commandments on top of that because Commandments are to help us achieve the
doctrines and doctrines have to be built upon Eternal truths and eternal
laws go ahead I I just I realized that that was in scripture and I started
looking I actually tried to list all the Commandments that I could and then I started listing the things that would
cause God to cease to be God and realize that these are the Eternal laws the the
Eternal laws are things that can't change or and if they did God would cease to be God and
so they are they are established as Eternal laws that even govern God in his
position I want to talk about that first a little bit because I think that's important as as the basis of this these
Eternal laws um outside of perhaps the restored gospel I don't know
if all any any of Christianity would agree with that saying that God would cease to be God because of not staying
within certain Eternal laws what does that mean if God must stay within the
laws and why does he have to do it well the phrase that we get in scripture is that if if he didn't then
it says God would cease to be God and God can't change we learned in Scripture that God is the same yesterday today and
forever he can't change he can't lie he can't tempt there's a number of things that he cannot do uh Joseph Smith said
God will not and Satan cannot control our agency now that's not necessarily an
eternal law that might be an eternal truth that God will not control our agency but there's other things that
that if he were to do um he would cease to be God for
example the scripture are especially in the Book of Mormon are replete with a statement that says no unclean thing can
dwell in the presence of God just can't do it nothing can be there and the scripture even give gives reasons why it
can't I mean it's that's something that is just there and true and everlasting
and eternal and that's something that Jesus himself is saying here in third Nephi 27 and no unclean thing can enter
into his kingdom on that so does God have agency then oh without
question God you you you have to have agency but God's reached a point where
his character will not do something that is contrary to righteousness and Truth he
just he's gone beyond that he's you know I'm not the same person I was 30 years ago and I would hope none of us are or
40 years ago uh and God's progressed to a point where he he has no as it as it says in Al 13
uh that sanctification comes because we have no more disposition to do evil we
cannot look upon sin save it be with abhorrence see that's a character that eventually develops and um the the whole
concept as you mentioned in in third Nei 27 about no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of
God it's it's it's not because God doesn't want us there it's that we can't
we can't endure that we can't be there as uh as uh Mormon says in in chapter nine
of his book um it says that we will see our nakedness and the glory of God and
the Holiness of Jesus Christ and it will cause an unquenchable fire to to grow
within us and we would shrink from his presence because of who he is and who we
are so that's no unclean thing can be there and that can't change because
God's not going to change so on our end right as children
of God Humanity Fallen beings right agency is at the top right I mean even
Adam and Eve they're given choice no matter what even though there's going to be horrific consequences for all mankind
for all of us we're able to choose things that are going to bring about destruction pain suffering to other
people even um so obviously if this is his plan that is at the top
but what you're saying then is God has gotten to a point where he has mastered
that agency and developed the character to the point that he is not he he still H
does he still have the choice I mean he does still have the choice right he's just he's just perfected himself to a
point that he's not going to choose wrong uh I guess I guess you could look
at it that way but I I think that the disposition even to if God could think
about just even think about doing something evil to me he would cease to
be God because he's gone beyond that point he he is he is beyond even even
thinking or doing something that would not be for the benefit of mankind he just can't do that he's he's reached a
situation and a station in mind in character and in action uh that's
beyond perhaps the scriptural the scriptural phrase is he's received a
fullness he is a fullness of light and truth and there is no darkness in him as
it talks about in section 93 so and and obviously if if there
was were different options that could happen with him then we could not have a
perfect faith in him that would be impossible exactly exactly if he wasn't omniscient and and
omnipotent uh in righteousness then there there would be no cause to have faith in God God can't God can't wake up
in the morning and say boy I didn't see that coming you know or he can't say he can't
be surprised God cannot be surprised because he knows the end from the beginning and KN the end from the
beginning before it even happens you can't make a mistake if you
know the end from the beginning you just can't make a mistake you can't be surprised and you can't make a mistake
he's reached beyond that um so you have these Eternal laws that's
kind of the foundation we'll call this a hierarchal structure here and and everything kind of goes Downstream is
Downstream from these Eternal laws in speaking with you previously you said that there is one
specifically that you kind of look at as as at the top as I recall I think it had to do with
exaltation and what what exactly is that let me let me explain kind of what I've
been looking at there are Eternal laws and let me just give you an example of those a few examples and and the the
primary one is that no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God that's even defined in the Book of Mormon as justice
justice is that no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God and you mentioned um you mentioned 3i 27 there
that's and it's all it's all through the Book of Mormon another statement is another one that would cause God to
cease to be God is Mercy cannot Rob Justice or God would cease to be God that means that Mercy cannot allow is
what go God could not allow something unclean to dwell in his Presence Mercy
cannot Rob Justice you can't change that no matter how much a person wants to or believes that God loves you so much that
he's going to dial down his glory so that so that the unclean can be there that's just not going to happen because
no unclean thing can dwell in his presence and mercy cannot Rob Justice and God can't change that he's the same
forever there's another statement um and it might even be within that passage you quoted that God cannot deny himself for
his glory he can't he can't turn Down That Glory he can't shut it off or dial it down so the unclean can be in his
presence so not so th these are Eternal laws that impact us and on top of these
Eternal laws or with these Eternal laws or Eternal truths uh that must be connected to this
before we can even get in my opinion before we can even get to Doctrine and an eternal truth might
be [Music] um uh our Spirits are Eternal for
example that that's an eternal truth we just can't get away from that our Spirits are Eternal now Eternal laws are
Eternal truth but Eternal truths aren't necessary Eternal laws just as we just as uh as the as our Spirits are Eternal
uh there's some other ones uh you might say that are Eternal truths that aren't going to change God created the heavens
and the Earth uh mankind is created in His image and likeness um as Joseph Smith said God
will not control our agency and Satan cannot that's that's an eternal truth um
another one would be dwelling in the presence of God which is connected back to that U Eternal law of no unclean
thing can can be in his presence but dwelling in the presence of God is character-based
uh agency is Cara and character is agency
based um the scriptures are a standard of Truth so these are Eternal truths
they're not necessarily doctrines these are just things that are are true uh they're not necessarily laws but they
stand on top of those Eternal laws or rest upon the foundation of those Eternal laws and then on Eternal truths
and eternal etal laws than our doctrines based so if that makes any sense yeah
that makes a lot of sense so so where does Moses 1 139 fit in here right for behold this is my work and my glory to
bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man well this actually comes down to the doctrine there's
there's one and there's one
foundational fundamental Doctrine it's a primary doctrine of on which everything
everything we believe in rests and it's because of the truths Eternal truths and eternal laws and
that's this foundational Doctrine is the reason that we have Commandments it's the reason that we have a church
organization it's a reason there's been a restoration it's a reason that prophets exist it's the reason that
scriptures exist it's the reason that that Christ need to needed to come to the Earth it's the reason that he needed
to die it's the reason that the atonement took place it's the reason that that the resurrection took place uh
there's one fundamental foundational Doctrine upon which everything everything we believe in
rests and that that Doctrine is is expressed best by Joseph Smith when he
when he said um that God finding and this is kind of a paraphrase it's in the
teachings of the prophets page 3 uh 354 but he said God finding himself in
the midst of these spirits who are eternal um finding himself in the midst of these
spirits and Glory he prepared a way he prepared a plan whereby these Spirits could receive the same Glory that he
has and that's that's that's that foundational Doctrine so God because
we're Eternal Spirits because no unclean thing can be in his presence God prepared a way a plan whereby these
Spirits could receive the same Glory that he has which means being able to come back into his presence clean and
pure again and so everything everything every
single thing we believe in as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of latterday saints rests upon that one foundational
Doctrine now um and that let let me just add that is
coming back to Moses 139 this is the work and glory of God but isn't that an
eternal truth this is his work because that's never going to change right that is right it's it's always been and it
always will be his work in glory I mean that that's and that's because he finding himself in the midst of those
Spirits prepared a plan but it's also it is an eternal truth because that's God's
work and Glory but it is the basic Doctrine upon which everything else rests everything I thought it it was
really interesting when you brought that up because I started thinking about other things that we hold so high which we should right but but I started
thinking about the atonement right I mean the atonement and having faith in the
atonement is a means to
accomplish basically Moses 139 and and and the doctrine and etal
truth that you're discussing I mean that becomes a means to to accomplish the
plan it brings it back to the idea of the plan that we draw out all the time right and and and that really is the the umbrella
that everything fits into um so the atonement becomes a means
to reach the objective and eternal truth or doctrine as you say of this is my
work and my glory isn't that right yes I mean we could we could call it the work and glory of God is the doctrine of
exaltation I mean it is it's the doctrine of exaltation the the the the
the and I don't know whether it's funny crazy or sad but we don't often talk
about the doctrine of exaltation anymore we just don't do it and and everything
we believe in rests upon that statement that Joseph Smith made that God finding himself in the midst of these Spirits
prepared a plan whereby they could receive the same Glory that he has and so we have an atonement to assist us in
developing in in in in helping us become worthy to be in the presence of God we
we have a resurrection that's needed in order to be in the presence of God we have Commandments to assist us in
developing the character that's needed to be in the presence of God and become like him so everything rests upon the
work and glory of God everything we do rests upon that work and glory and the terrible thing is if we if we know what
the work and glory of God is we have to ask ourselves what do it mean to have an eye single to the glory of God is our
eye to be single to the word and glory of God to the concept of exaltation I think it does so we have to ask
ourselves these questions well I think also in in when we remove the doctrine
of exaltation in our thought and in our study and in our talks and and classes
and everything else it throws everything else off for example charity right what
is the true love of God is it tolerance is it is it just put Comfort is it
affirmation or is it the Eternal well-being of all to
reach exaltation right is it is it am I am I concerned am I willing to sacrifice
all for you to influence you to do whatever is
necessary while you hold your agency to help you reach exaltation that's a different thought process than just kind
of love is love right I'm just I'm just going to you know or or even looking at God it's is is he just there for comfort
and healing or is he there for us to accomplish the plan that God has set out
yeah he is I mean it it is his work in glory and that charity that you talk
about charity charity is that Pure Love Of Christ and and as Moroni explains
where it it Envy not it seeketh not its own Christ said the last the last
Commandment that Christ said the very last one before his crucifiction was love one another as I have loved you
which is willing to give your life for other peoples for for other uh for the
exaltation of others for the righteousness of others love one another as I have loved you and he says and if
you don't then you are not my disciples you know Paul talks about charity and charity is the Char
character that makes God God that's what we have to have and it's not racist it's
not just tolerance and and these these character traits of of tolerance or what we say or
or might might describe as love do not compensate for the character that's
required to be in the presence of God I can love a lot of people but I can be I can I can be mad all the time at
the the same time and that's not a good character yeah um what is an example
then of just give an example of a Doctrine right this is coming more Downstream from the Eternal laws and the
Eternal truths well if if the F if the
foundational Doctrine is the work and glory of God the exaltation of mankind then there are other doctrines that we
might believe in for for instance the doctrine of Resurrection Elma teaches that we have
to be resurrected in order to come into the presence of God back into that presence of God um another one might be
the doctrin surrounding the atonement and what we believe about the atonement um these are these are other
doctrines but they're still built upon that foundational doctrine of exaltation because that's the goal that's what
God's trying to accomplish that's his work in glory and it's because our Spirits are Eternal and it's because no
unclean thing can dwell in his presence so we have we have these other what we might call doctrines uh of the atonement
of the Resurrection um things like that that are going to assist us in obtaining that
foundational concept or that foundational doctrine of exaltation or being worthy for that exaltation so you
know it's it's a good question as to what is a Doctrine and what isn't a Doctrine so I've always I've always
found it interesting you know there there seems to be because I've always thought I I like this this structure because I've always thought that there
are things outside of The Commandments and what I mean by that is uh Abraham taking Isaac to be
sacrificed Thou shalt not murder there there's something outside of the current
commandment right even though God certainly is commanding him right but but there's something outside of the
written Commandments that seems to be required of us to go beyond another words it's
not just a checklist it's almost like it's not just a checklist it is there is
a an external uh you know
relationship and faith in God that goes beyond just the Commandments does that
make sense it it does because Commandments you know if you if you tell
a group of if you tell a group of Latter-day Saints or members of the church and you say Commandments are not
doctrines most of their mouths just because they think that the Commandments are doctrines and they're not
Commandments are to assist us in developing the character to accomplish
the doctrine and that foundational Doctrine again is is the doctrine of exaltation so Commandments are not
restrictions and we shouldn't look at Commandments as restrictions Commandments are
recipes for happiness or recipes for character change that's what these Commandments are and there's a lot of
people who come along and think well I think the church ought to change these Commandments or I think the church ought
to accept this particular lifestyle and the church can't do that a religion cannot be a religion unless
it's founded on unchangeable doctrines and that doctrine of
exaltation which separates which separates members of the Church of Jesus
Christ of latterday saints from every other Christian religion that concept of exaltation
is founded upon the Eternal nature of our spirits and that no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God and
when somebody thinks that they can by Vote or by vigil or by uh petition that
they can change the scriptural standards that the church is built upon it they're foolish
they're they're they're they're they're they're talking to the
wall so to speak because the a religion cannot be a religion unless it's founded
upon unchangeable Doctrine an unchangeable standard and that's what our scriptures are and it still comes
back to that concept of the doctrine of exaltation and that no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God and so many
people want the church to change so that they don't have the guilt or they or
that they want to believe that God's going to allow them in with their chosen type of lifestyle or whatever it might
be and it can't happen because if God could do that he would
cease to be God I want to go back to the exaltation here real quick because I I I've I've
thought about this quite a bit I think about again going back to the idea of love and charity um our culture even
inside the church has moved to a point I mean in the western world has moved to a
point where um we're trying to shun consequences to some degree and
responsibility and um so when we look at a god goel as a you know a religion and
Christianity the restored gospel being more specific uh and we're looking at God as
someone who is comforting and healing and then you add in the ideas of
of of uh mental illness right anxiety and and depression and all these things
and and there's that one side of the coin Bruce which is well let's just comfort and affirm and and say
everything's okay and and that know sometimes that might be appropriate to some degree but the other side of the
coin to me on that is is purpose is meaning and boy could we could we help
more those that have anxiety those that are depressed those that are looking for an anchor by teaching more the doctrine
of exaltation and and giving a clear path of purpose and meaning and and direction
because that's what that Doctrine does that's what exaltation does it gives you that and if we move away from that and
and as you you know go Downstream more on these on this Hier hierarchy then we think we might be giving some
medicine to them but it might be poison
too you know it could be but there's there's nothing that will change a
person more than truth will than absolute truth the mind has to have an answer when it has a question and the
best answer is truth and if if we're not teaching the truth or we reject the truth we have no other option but but to
believe a lie and understanding the the whole doctrine of of
exaltation and the purpose of Commandments not being restrictions but
being showing us that God loves us by giving us a way to help us develop a
character or a teach teing us how to live so that we can develop a character that's worthy to live with him that then
that then Commandments are are are proof of God's love for us and
not exactly ordinances the ordinances we participate in uh if we talk about the
ordinances of the temple um you know Washings and anointings uh Elma 13:1 16
says now these speaking of these things it says now these these ordinances are given after this manner whereby the
people might look forward to a remission of their sins and it says it again in the same verse look forward ordinances
are are a hope of a future reality to come forth in that first resurrection that's a hope of a future reality or to
be washed and pronounced clean that's a hope of a future reality and it's and we
have those ordinances because they are harking back to that foundational doctrine of exaltation and so when we
begin to understand the truth when we when we begin to understand the work and glory of God then that gives us a hope
and and these ordinances give us a hope and a reason to change our
character to develop that character that's worthy to be in the presence of God yeah I just think that we're going
sometimes in a spiral that if you if you shun truth and you're looking for a
shortterm solution to help someone or uh you need meaning you need meaning and
like you said you need answers and and the gospel has those answers we
shouldn't you know we should use those as tools to help people in in uh in
their growth um next Downstream here the next on the hierarchal structure here you have his principles what do you mean
by principles in my in my opinion principles are a way
to to help us keep the Commandments or live the way that we're supposed to you
know um The Book of Proverbs uh for example is full of great principles you
know you almost look at Proverbs as principles as a group of principles but uh is what we're seeing in today's
environment both in and out of the church is true doctrines and
Commandments offend people it it it makes people upset it
makes us it makes some people feel like you're not being intolerant even though it's God that's God is the one that set
the rules we didn't set the rules he's the one that said no unclean thing can be there and then he gives us scriptures and Commandments that tells us tells us
the kind of character that that isn't going to be able to be in his presence as well as he explains the kind of
character that is going to be in his pres or able to be in his presence so we like to blame other people for that and
and these Commandments are just there to help us but but people get offended because of those Commandments or because
we want to stick to the to the scriptures that explain God's will um
and so we've started teaching and I I noticed this trend over the last little
bit is that we're moving to principles because principles don't offend but they can help people
change if you listen to in my opinion principles exist in order to help us
give us reason to keep the Commandments but but the real reason comes back to all the way back to that Eternal law
that no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God and principles are to assist us in that in that
endeavor well principles make great quotes too yeah they
do I I was look I was reading in in in uh I think it was Proverbs the other day
and it said it's better better to dwell in that corner of a housetop than with a fighting than with a fighting wife you
know and I thought well is that a principle or is that just really good advice you know and so there can be the
same principles can be good advice and they can assist us in in keeping and uh
in keeping the Commandments and and living the way that we're supposed to live but sometimes true Doctrine offends
people it just offends people and so in order to keep people in the church I I can see this movement kind of moving
from Doctrine and truths Eternal truths that we're moving into a principle-based
um teaching situation and learn and learn learning culture well if that's true and I I
believe it is I I agree with that observation um that we are we're
we're how do we say it we're watering down a little bit to the point where where we're we're living more in a
principle-based um environment even within the church and the culture of the church uh what
does that mean I mean if we're if we're if we're a distance from Eternal truths
Eternal laws and and unchanging doctrines and we're moving to principles what does that mean for us
you know it's to me it's scary to think about because spiritual entropy exists
just like there's physical entropy or biological entropy there's a spiritual entropy and we know that's true because
if if that were not true we wouldn't have multiple dispensations everything goes from a
state of order to a state of disorder even after restoration everything goes from the restoration of truths
everything goes downhill that's what the book of Mormon's all about the witness of the Book of Mormon it does and it
doesn't matter what culture whether it was the Nephites or whether it was the jedes um or you look back at at the Old
Testament the dispensation of Moses from the from the time that Moses gets the commands on Mount siani down to the
destruction of Jerusalem by Babylon you know every every dispensation is proof
that there is spiritual entropy and moving from True sound
doctrines and Commandments and laws whatever you want to call it into just
principle-based um belief I think is just a sign of this spiritual entropy
that takes place in every generation Joseph Smith said that the nature and Constitution of man has not
changed since the beginning that's why you that's why we have a record of a fallen people the old
Testament is a record of a fallen people uh The Book of Mormon is a record of a fallen people um sections 101 through
105 of the doctrine covenants the Lord is explaining why and how we are going down
this path of spiritual entropy that we need to be chastened for a little season because we had everything we needed to
begin with and we're and we're and we're not accepting it uh section 104 we're
making covenants in with AED words it says um and section 101 of the doctrine
covenants and 112 they talk about these same things that where this spiritual entropy is taking place and that's why
we the scriptures are historical proof that it does take place and I think
moving from doctrinal based uh looking at the Commandments as
God's love for us and reasons to keep them into principle
I think I think we're moving down this path of spiritual entropy at the same time not that principles are bad or
anything but I think we need to be doctrinally based so that we can
understand what our purpose is what you know in in um DNC
49 just for an example it says that the the Earth was created that a man might
have one wife and the twain become one flesh all this
that the Earth might answer the ends of its creation and then in verse 17 of 49
it says so that they the man and the woman who are
sealed can have children to house the spirits that were
existing before the Earth was created and it says that this is the whole purpose of creation who has ever who
talks about the purpose of creation as a man and a woman being sealed so that
they can have children we don't even talk about that anymore so which which
also people lose an understanding of even their Temple experience because of that yeah that's exactly right that's
exactly right um so I look at principles here and I see this watering down and I see
the rest of Christianity you see a lot of these especially non- denominational Christian Christian churches
and and there's something called the Prosperity Gospel and and it's not just economic right it's like this you go
there you listen to them and I've seen several of I mean I don't know a hundred 200 of these sermons and and it's such a
good feeling that you have you know it's it's self-help I see the principles as kind
of like this self-help movement and then every once in a while maybe once maybe
once or possibly twice in in in one of these hourlong sermons they bring up a
scripture right and so it's it's you talk about an anchor of scripture and
eternal laws and eternal truths and you go way Downstream here and you end up with this Feelgood happy uh boy I'm
energized on Sunday because of the sermon that I received well it's not
lost on me that to some degree I mean not nearly the same thing but to some
degree we're falling into the same thing well Nephi Nephi warned about it
warned about that in in um as Nephi is speaking he speaks to he speaks to
different Believers he speaks to churches different churches and he speaks to Latter-day Saints and he says
he said and and this is his sign of and I don't want to call it apostasy but his sign of this entropy the spiritual
entropy of the last days he says people will begin to say all is well in Zion yay Zion Prosper all is well that's the
prosperity that's the that's the the the Prosperity Gospel that Nephi is saying
is a sign of failure as we Pat ourselves on the back saying all is well in Zion y
Zion Prosper all as well Christ Christ doesn't come because there is a Zion
people prepared for him Christ comes because there isn't a Zion people
[Music]
name but have not known me and have but have blasphemed my name in the midst of
mine house so he says that I mean it's what that is saying is those who know and
understand the gospel are going to be held accountable to that knowledge where there is no where there is no law there
can be no punishment there is no condemnation if they don't have the law and so the gospel law and we see this
with with the Old Testament especially and even in the book and especially in the Book of Mormon those who know the
law are held accountable to that law and that's what Jacob says in chapter n when he talks about it when he talks about
those who don't have the law are not going to be held accountable but then he says but woe unto those who have all the
law uh given unto them like unto us which means that we're the only ones
that can sin and really sin well yeah against you know we're much as
given much as expected exactly um all right coming down to the bottom one here or the top however you've got this place
here we go to policies give me an example of a policy policy is a policy is is the
leadership's determination on how best to administer the gospel uh an exam
couple examples of policy do we meet for three hours on Sunday or do we meet for two hours do we have priesthood in the
morning and Sacrament in the evening or do we do it all at once that's a policy uh do we serve a mission for 18 months
two years or 24 months those are examples of policies policies policies
exist in order to facilitate the administration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ that to me that's what policies
are yeah and they can change policies can change sure the doctrines the
doctrines won't change the Commandments which are there to help us develop the character worthy to dwell with God
they're not going to change because God's not going to change but policies can change and I
would expect those policies policies to change as the church grows and and every
every organization has Growing Pains where policies do need to change but the doctrines and the
Commandments uh can't change so you know I look at all these
from Pol you know go go coming here all the way Downstream you got policies principles Commandments and doctrines
leading up to these Eternal truths and laws it's in my mind as I think about
this it seems to me that it's a lot it can be a lot clearer you know those
things we put on our Shelf right such as blacks in the priesthood or or um
polygamy or things that you know some of us have issues with in church history or
whatever it might be if we're focused on the Eternal truths and
laws and we're saying well how does all of this fit underneath
this higher umbrella here of these Eternal laws and truths I think that we can swallow a lot more in terms of what
we're hearing right it's it's I can I can take something that's on my shelf and say well I may not understand
everything but I can see that this at least still somehow may fit under these Eternal laws and the Eternal
truths and and there is an end to all of this there's a there there's an
objective for all of these things one way the other whether it's a part of adversity or or whether it's a part of
the hand of God whatever it might be is it all fitting under an eternal law and
an eternal truth you know one of the one of those Eternal laws or Eternal truths
I guess you might say is God knows the end from the beginning you know that's not
necessarily the law but he does and there isn't anything H that happens that he hasn't foreseen and that he hasn't
prepared for and we look at these things and say well this this man did this or we the church
practiced practiced this particular policy at this particular time and it
can or it may or may not be true because it did that but God has seen the end from the beginning and he has prepared
everything all things for all things and we don't need to worry about those
things God's in charge his work and Glory has always been his work and Glory
uh we see this when Satan gives the fruit to Adam and Eve and it says for Satan knew not the mind of God
and neither do we nobody nobody understands because God
has seen the end from the beginning and so we don't need to worry about these things I mean we have to go through
growing pains and there's certain cultural uh things that happen that is
part of that growing pain so that things can um line up but everything is going
to work for the end result of the of the glory of God everything will we don't even have to worry about
it so last question then if we are if we are have moved to principles more more
heavily on principles than we should be and we've pulled away from Eternal truths and laws in our communication and
messaging and and again talks or whatever it might be um are we less anchored
in the gospel you know that's a good question
um The Gospel we have is one of repentance I mean the the Gospel of Jesus Christ if you look at the in third
Nephi chapter 11 or third Nephi chapter 27 um if you look in these chapters it
talks about uh the Gospel of Jesus Christ or the sometimes called the doctrine and it says it's Faith
repentance baptism the gift of the Holy Ghost in during to the end well when it comes right down to it um this gospel
that we have is one of the change of character we exercise faith in the atonement and the resurrection of Christ
unto amul says in 34 unto repentance and repentance is the process of changing
character and the the two things that I hear the
least about in in the talks in our church meetings are
repentance and the doctrine of exaltation those are the two things we
don't talk about because we're usually so busy sometimes patting ourselves on the back declaring all is well in Zion
but we do need to live this principle or that principle but the whole gospel is
one of character change so that we can dwell with God and that's the concept or doct or the pr or the gospel of
repentance and repentance is just the process of changing character so that we
can obtain the doctrine of exaltation so that we can dwell in the presence of God
because we are Eternal Spirits so I I don't know that we're
going nowhere because I think it's the principles that at our stage needs to be taught 50
years ago and I noticed this when I used to frequent Deseret Book 50 years ago
deset book didn't publish anything except Doctrine I mean you you had all kinds of
books that were coming out that were talking about Doctrine and and today
it's not so much Doctrine anymore we have the talks of general authorities but and I have a I have letters in my
files where I've sent manuscripts to deset book and they and I've got letters from them that say well we want we want
a book uh we don't want Doctrine anymore we want a book that's 100 to 150 pages
so it can be read at one sitting and we and we prefer it to be fiction you know
spiritual fiction mingled with scripture so to speak now that's not that's not
that's not desire's fault that's not deset book's fault that's the Market's
fault so I can't say that we're it's the church or it's deset book that isn't
focusing on the doctrine anymore but it's the market that's
there and it's the market that determines what deserette book is going
to sell and perhaps it's the market that is forcing us to go into principle-based
learning and teaching rather than doctrinal based learning and teaching God's in control he's inspiring the
Brethren on how best to maintain the membership and we get exactly what what
we there's a great verse in in section 88 we will receive that which we are
willing to receive because we would not receive that which we might have
received that's what I was going to bring up just now as I I I said I already asked the last question but I
one more it's it's well like desire Ed book I mean isn't God going to act the same way he we're going to get what we
want one way or the other he's going to allow us our agency as a church as a
body and and we're going to get what we want and that's not just through desire
Ed book that's right it's it's agency based if if you think and this this I I I I
was uh with the Relief Society a whole group of Relief Society sisters last night and the question came up about
this agency and and as I was speaking to them I I'm realizing that everything we
have that God has given our exaltation our salvation and exaltation is agency based now if you you think of the prear
council when we're in that prear Council and God presents the plan and he says all right you're all going to go down
there and you're going to suffer through all of these physical emotional
um mental um sicknesses or illnesses
these you're going to you're going to suffer through cancer leukemia whatever it might be you're going to have to suffer uh through the death of a loved
one a spouse or a child you're going to have to go through all of these things and then he has to explain to us that
not only that but when you get just physical body you're going to have desires appetites and passions which are
going to create a character that's going to fight against your spirit but it's going to create a character that's going to keep you out of our out of my
presence unless there's a savior for you well as you think about
that um and our salvation and exaltation and how it's agency based we probably
ask the question well then how are we ever going to get back here how are we ever going to get back to your presence
um and then he say just and I'm this is all Pretend This there nothing in scripture
but he probably says I'll tell you what I will for you to help you and your
agency uh to choose to come back I'm going to give you profits um and I'm going to give you
scripture and I'm going to give you Commandments and I'm going to give you a
church and a priesthood organization uh so that you can be edified um I'm going
to give you all of these things so you can use your agency to choose to develop a character
that's worthy to come back in my presence and I'm going to give you the Holy Ghost to assist you in that so I
can imagine God saying okay this is what I'm going to do for you and those who are going to be born in a time when the
gospel isn't there we're we have a plan for that too that's why there's going to be a spirit world and that's why it's
necessary that there be space between death and the resurrection so everyone can learn perfectly but there's two
things that we can't do for ourselves and that is we can't resurrect ourselves
and we can't bring us back into the presence of God and so he says to us I I will
provide as Grace as a free gift the Son of God that will provide
you a resurrection and with that Resurrection an atonement so and everyone everyone
everyone can be resurrected and everyone can be brought back the presence of God those are the two things we can't do
everything else is our choice whether to keep the Commandments to remain active
in the church to serve one another uh to be edified to search the scriptures to
all everything else is agency based and so God has given us an opportunity to do
everything we can to come back into his presence well Bruce that's uh it's great
stuff I love what you've researched here it gives a lot of clarity to a lot of problems that a lot of us are facing and
it gives Clarity to where we are right now and what we should do so I
appreciate your knowledge I appreciate your wisdom I have the opportunity to draw on that often so thanks for coming
on the show all right thank you [Music]
Greg
