The Great LDS Shift In 1995

1995 was a pivotal year in Latter-day Saint messaging The declining fertility rate in the church has little to do with the economy and environmental causes. It is careerism and secularism. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the greatest organization on earth, and second place isn't even close.

 Raw Transcript:

All right, let's take a walk.
I want to follow up a little on the latest episode on Quick Show in regards to our Latterday Saint women having
babies anymore. Uh, obviously that's a little bit of a uh trigger, but it's true.
And it's just a matter of following following the rest of culture. And it's not just the women, it's men. And uh
there are a lot of factors that are involved with this and a lot of people have brought a lot of things up. But the fact of the matter is
that the fertility rate is dropping and any organization, any society, civilization with the type of fertility rate that we
have right now is in for a real awakening.
And I believe it is the easily the biggest threat to our society and the biggest threat to the church.
1 minuteUm people disagree with me on that, but we'll see how things play out.
Some people came up with some ideas on this that were very interesting. A lot of people pushing back on what I am saying as to why families are smaller,
why women are and we we talk about women because they're the one that bear the children and the fertility rate is based on how many kids per woman are we having, right?
So this is uh a controversial topic but I think it's a very very important topic
and we should be discussing this a lot more. It's sensitive and
but you know that's kind of what we do here. So, let me get into there. This episode is brought to you by the
Three Continents Tour which is coming up in October 2026, one with Bruce Porter. Then I've
got one in two in March of 2027. one with Jacob Hansen of thoughtful faith and one with author uh Jonah Barnes.
This is an amazing trip. We go through Turkey. We go through the Greek isles and Athens and Corinth. We end up in
Egypt and just an amazing you're going to go to sites that are just you're just going to be overwhelmed by the time that
you're done with this trip. It's fantastic. We go through time going further and further back into time as we
go on to to each continent. You can find out more at quickmedia.com cwicdmedia.com.
Go to trips and events at the top and then scroll down to three continents tour to find out more. Okay. Now on the
fertility rate, this is really a lightning rod that has got to be
discussed I believe because why are why are we following the world? Why do we follow what the world is doing here?
A lot of people have pushed back and here's some things that they've said.
Number one, they say that well there are plastics microlastics in our that we're consuming. Some people are saying pesticides. Some people are saying, you
know, environmental issues. Something's going on. Polyester was brought up.
A lot of these things we're looking at, uh, environmental issues. They're talking about economic issues.
Currently, it's harder to buy a house than it was a while ago. The groceries have gone up about 30% in the last five or six years.
So, there are economic issues. But here's the thing.
There is a little bit of a battle between generations. You've got younger people that are Gen Z and millennials saying, "Well, you you know, this is
much harder for us than it was for you." I I don't know that that's true. I just don't know if that's true.
I I think that as we become more and more abundant in our economy, you've got things delivered to your
porch, anything that you want, variations on food, you've got everything packaged for you.
Uh you can find anything that you want.
It's a much different world than it was when when I was first married growing up.
But the the biggest teller to me, the biggest thing to think about about
economic pressure is going back to the Great Depression.
You go all the way. Are you in a position where it's the Great Depression?
So, we look at it as if it's something recent. The fertility rate is because of the inflation, right? The fertility rate is because of Trump and the economy. the
the fertility rate is because of you know something within the last 10 or 20 years. No,
right. The fertility rate has been dropping for 50 plus years.
It's not it's not something recent. It's not like, oh wow, all of a sudden what's happening? This is all building up. And
it goes right along with honestly with women leaving the church. It's the same trajectory.
uh as well. And that's not something recent.
It's not just something recent. It has been going on for 50 or 60 years. 60 years. It's been going on for 60 years.
So the Great Depression, the fertility rate got down to 2.1%. 2.1. It was still at replacement rate.
Things are not as bad as the Great Depression. I promise they're not even close.
And yet we were having more than two kids per woman during that time. So it's not economics.
We are down to 1.6 1.6%.
It's not just the economics. It's not just the environment. It is not something recent.
It is a gradual move of two things. two things.
It is careerism with women and it is a lack of religious religiousness.
Those are the two highest correlating factors with fertility rate. Like it or
not, that's what it is. And you have more women leaving the church over the last 60 years than you do men. And so
there's a higher level of uh you know some some are going to other religions, okay, but they're no longer
members of the church. So the fertility rate is dropping.
And you have obviously a higher number of women that are in careers and working full-time.
So and that's the way our economy is built.
That's the way it's structured. It's it's expecting two incomes per married couple
and that's difficult. That that's pretty tough. But you cannot you cannot be upset about the messenger
here telling you what is happening with the fertility rate. It is it is the truth. So the question is what do we do?
What do we do about this? How do you how do you change this? Why does it matter?
Well, it matters hugely. I mean, you're talking about an implosion of the economy. You're talking about an implosion of the organization. You have uh talk to my friend Gail Pulley, Dr.
Gail Pulley about abundance. And the larger number of people and abundance of people you have, the greater uh opportunities you're going to have for
new ideas you're going to have for new leadership. You're going to have for creation and programs and whatever else
there is in the church. Revelation Growth is everything.
And we're going backwards as as the Gentiles, right? We are in the sunset of the Gentiles, the day of the Gentiles
because we are going backwards quite a bit.
And hey, we've got the Latinos, we've got the Filipinos, we've got the
Africans. At least those three are going to end up taking over everything in the church because because we're dying out right now.
And maybe that's what's prophesied. Maybe that's just what the way it is. Because why? Well, it's not because of polyester
and it's not because the economy, right?
It's a change in attitude. It's a change in world view.
And I know that a number of you are trying to have more kids. You've you've been saying that you've and and things seem to be difficult. And
there does seem to be something in the water. There does seem to be something in the air with a number of people that are trying to get pregnant and are
having a difficult time or having more kids and are having a difficult time. But it's not just a recent problem.
It's been going on for a long time. And for me, I I I look much more at the philosophies of men and a cultural and a
worldview that has changed and evolved over those decades of the last 60 years.
And the reason I say 60 years is because if you go back and you look at the BYU study of
women leaving the church, it starts right about there. men and women are almost exactly the same to last year 2025 at age 78.
Those that are retained in the church, those are still active in the church.
And so you go back and then it starts off at age 18. So you're going, it's a 60-year period that you're looking at.
And that 60-year period just continues to drop until today you've got 18 year olds. 18-year-old women
that are 20% less likely, you know, their retention rate is 20% lower than men. Men are just below 60%.
And it's stayed fairly steady for those 60 years. It's dropped, used to be uh at 60% or maybe a little bit higher. It's
it's definitely moved a little bit and come down a little bit, but with women, it is a steep slope
over those that 60-year period down to the age of 18 to the point that now there's a 20% difference in retention.
What that means in that 20% is essentially for every three men that are retained
have a detention in the church only two women are retained in the church.
That's a real problem.
What's interesting and I don't think there's a correlation here but maybe is that the that's the exact same number as our colleges our college admittance.
There are three women for every two men that are admitted to college.
three women for every two men to get a bachelor's degree and pretty close to the same going all the way up through masters and PhD.
And I've seen influencers, Latterday Saint influencers, that have said some things about this about, hey, the church wants us to have an education.
Uh, and education means more marriage. It does.
Education means more marriage, but it means less kids.
It means less kids. And the reason it means less kids is because the number one correlator
correlation point to the fertility rate is women's careers, right? That that is number one. And so
if you are on a career path, then you're going to have fewer kids. and and
I've I've said that great you if you that's what you want if that is your capacity
uh that's fantastic go out and do what you can do if you can manage that with having kids I know some women that do that not very many uh if you're a really
high capacity woman like that go for it but the bottom line is is if we are advocating for that in the church.
For example, we don't talk anything about motherhood with a young women's theme. Nothing. This is so odd to me.
So odd how.
But if we're advocating for women to go out and have careers,
there's there's no there's no way around it.
And I don't have any problem with women going and having careers. But the result is there. Regardless of what we say,
what regardless of what we want, there are going to be smaller families. There are going to be more women that are childish childless. There are going to
be uh kids that learn less resiliency and fewer social skills because they're only
ch childs. There are there's going to be more parents or not parents but men and
women that without kids are never going to stretch beyond their own wants and needs and never be in that position.
That's not good for society.
It's just not. And when we talk about the last two paragraphs of the family proclamation, the calamities that we're going to expect, it's for those reasons.
It is the dissolution, the disintegration of the family, like it or not.
So, and then the other thing that just gets me in the comments section
is yes, for the men, uh, they're bringing up feminism a lot. The women do, too. All right. It it's feminism is
a horrible, horrific, deadly, pernitious ideology.
It it is based in the destruction of family. And if you have ever studied this, if you've ever gone back and
looked at those all the way first feminism even go second wave feminism uh
going all the way back to uh who's the author of Frankenstein? Is it Mary Sharie Shelley? Is that right? I'm not sure. Going all the way back to her mom.
Actually, you you end up you end up with a destruction of family. that that's its
primary focus. It's a destruction of family because it wants a destruction of patriarchy. It's a destruction of family because it wants a destruction of hierarchal structures.
And so this same spirit that goes through the feminist ideology for for family is the
same spirit that goes through organizations through the church.
It is break it down. break down this hierarchal structure. We don't want order.
Even though the order of the family is by divine design, it is break off the men, break off the children, give us
pure liberation as women, and let us be free.
As I said in the episode, you know, they they don't want, so to speak, the ball and chain.
And so, a lot of women will say, "Well, I'm a feminist." But they don't really, but they're focused on the gospel and they're like, "How are you a feminist?
Do you know what that means? I mean, are you a feminist because you want equal rights?" Okay, pretty sure you've got equal rights. Are you a feminist because
you're looking at other civilizations throughout the world where there are hyper masculine, hyper uh patriarchal where women are basically property.
Okay, I get it.
If if that's what feminism is to you, great. But in the West, in the US,
I I don't understand the label. I I really do not get why someone would say this. Anyway, the mission of darkens are
there uh that that that tried to break everything down uh deconstruct the family, deconstruct
the church and a very post-modern and critical theory
point of view that has taken over the academy.
Break down the Book of Mormon. Trust me, this is all over the place in Mormon studies. break down the priesthood,
break down the brethren. It's it's uh it's pernicious and and feminism is a big part of that. They're all
they're all joining in on the feminist uh bandwagon ideology and those that are looking for that destruction, that deconstruction.
And then I want to say something about 1995. This is fascinating to me.
Quick change of uh scenery here. I guess when you walk around with an iPhone in over 100 degree weather, putting it out
into the sun, it it heats up after several minutes. So, we'll finish this
off here in in the car. Uh 1995 is a really interesting year. It's
fascinating because Gordon B. Hinkley, one of my all-time favorites, him and David McKay, of
course, Joseph Smith, but uh he becomes the president of the church in March of 1995.
6 months later, in September of 1995, he reads publicly the family
proclamation at the General Relief Society meeting over conference weekend. it's now made public.
Uh in that family proclamation, there is something very interesting that gets very misinterpreted
and even in the way it is explained later on. All of the messaging to men
and all of the messaging to women changes after the family proclamation. And it's not what you think.
It's kind of that there is a a a statement made in the family proclamation about what are men's roles,
their primary roles, and what are women's primary roles.
And around that idea, the messaging changes.
And it's it it changes all the way from the top to the bottom in the church because it's bold. It's very
straightforward, but we interpret it very differently.
And the way we're mostly going to hear that, and I put this in the episode yesterday, but the way we're usually going to hear it is men are supposed to
do this x x and women are supposed to do y. And but we're equal partners. So
there are three things that are men told that men are supposed to do. And by the way, it's by divine design. It is not a suggestion by the prophets. They are
stating that it is the order of God. And they say men are to preside, that they are to provide, and that they are to protect.
Those three things, right? And that women are primarily in charge of the nurture of their children.
Okay? So the the roles are set apart here. They're different. Well, in the 90s, of course, we're full boore moving into a completely different cultural
change where women on mass have have gone into the work field, the workplace, and two income homes are becoming much more common.
Uh not quite as much in the church. It's it's there for sure, but but it certainly not the way it is today, 30
days 30 years later. But it it's it's we're moving down that trail already, you know, in in the '9s for sure.
And so everything then after changes.
Used to have very direct messaging to men about their responsibilities.
And see, men need identity, purpose, and vision. They need inspiration, and they need respect.
Very important. Most studies show that men need feel they have a greater need for respect than they do love.
And so how is that garnered? And it is garnered. It's not just given. Well, it's given. They need the
responsibilities to begin with them.
They need the responsibility of presiding, providing and protecting.
And then they need to fulfill that. And that's where they can get their respect.
And that's where they get their identity. That's where they get their purpose.
So it's no mistake that within the church and outside of the church when the messaging completely changes
pulling away from those things and the message to the women which their primary role is to nurturing the
children also gets pulled and completely changed that people feel at a loss. I mean men are lost.
They you they're they're like wait a minute all these responsibilities that I'm supposed to be doing they're gone.
I'm no longer supposed to be this person. And even in the church, the messaging is, you know, that's not you. And what they
go to is in the lower in the paragraph it says as equal partners.
Of course, what that really means, the reason that the division is there in the first place before it says equal partners, because of course they're equal, men and
women, husbands and wives, is because one is supposed to help and
support the other in their primary roles and the other is supposed to do the
same. So women are supposed to support men in presiding in the family.
They're supposed to support men in providing for the family as the primary provider.
And women are supposed to support men in protecting the family.
And men are supposed to support women in nurturing the children. And that's where
the equaless comes in. It's not equal men are to nurture the same as women are to nurture. It's not that women and men are supposed to be equal in presiding.
There is a patriarchal priesthood that men and women both participate in.
24 minutesBut the men are supposed to preside and provide and protect and and that is
not that's not the message. There's always a qualification whenever those are brought up. And this goes along with
people that are even firm with the family proclamation. Love the family proclamation, but man, they don't touch that.
They don't touch that. And that's the issue. I mean, I'm sorry, but that is part of why the calamities are going to come. And that doesn't mean that if you
have uh if there is a a woman who is the primary bread winner for the family that all of a sudden you are in the wrong.
That's not what I'm saying. That's not what the family proclamation is saying.
It's saying this is the ideal situation and not everybody can reach the ideal.
That could be an economic issue that that could be whatever it is. You might not be able to reach that. But to
advocate for the reversal or the equal sharing of those responsibilities is a completely different animal.
Right? So that is that is where the change has come from since 1995. If you look at talks before 1995
you will see and before the family proclamation you will see direct messages to men about leading their families.
Now of course we get no messaging to men today. There is zero zero messaging to men direct message from uh uh Salt Lake to men that doesn't exist.
But even there, even so, even going after 1995 where you had general priesthood going up through what was it 2016ish
2007 200 at least 2016 uh you know you had direct messages and
still it was very different. it it you don't it it's you'll get some of that but it's very
highly qualified and and then and then it's very much but you know you're equal partners hint hint
so so you're and that's the way we talk about it so I think that that's a problem I I
think that's a problem that's why I don't know that the family proclamation will ever be canonized on its own number one it's all built off of doctrine
already. But to canonize it, I I I don't I think that we we run from that that paragraph or we distort it.
And so because we're going right along with society in in that as as members of the church, we're going along with society
and we're saying, "Oh, well, you should share the president that being the pro the presider in the
family." Well, you kind of do, but really it's the women should be supporting the men and presiding and and we're supposed to share equally the nurturing of children.
Well, of course, men want to nurture their children, spend time with their kids. And today men of course spend more time with their kids than they ever have before.
And and that's probably a positive. I don't know. We'll we'll see where that goes. But
um I it's it it's just that's why I don't think it'll ever be canonized. 1995 it
changed it changed everything in messaging once that bold clear
decisive and precise wording was put in place and codified if not canonized
with the family proclamation. So I find that to be it's very interesting but the
fertility rate it's It's it's a bigger threat than people
28 minutesrealize to the church. It's a bigger threat than people realize to the church. All right, I want to move on to the next topic, faith. We talked about
faith earlier this week and the week before and and I got a lot of push back on on saying that faith is built on evidence.
It is built on evidence. You cannot have faith without evidence.
And and it's it's it's turned upside down for some people because they say, "Well, if you're a sign seeker, don't seek for the sign first without the
trial of your faith." Well, that's exactly right. What are the signs that you're supposed to be seeking? Well, or that you shouldn't be seeking. Well, it's the evidence.
You don't get the evidence first of your faith before you exercise the faith.
And and that's all about gaining knowledge, true experiential, spiritual, observational knowledge.
And so over time, as I have faith in something or in someone, let's say it's a spouse, over time, you build that
relationship. And if everything is true there, then your relationship will grow because primarily because of the trust that you have in that person. You get to
know them and you have trust in certain areas at least. And then maybe that broadens later on. But you have the trust because of the experience. It's a testing area. It's a lab.
And and the more that gets tested through experience, if things are true, then you can trust
even more. Now, that's not the way it always works out unfortunately, but that's how faith works. And that knowledge that you gain in that trust
because of that experience is now new knowledge that you can build off of and increase your faith even
further. So you're not seeking for signs first. That that's the whole point. You are building evidence off of exerting
your faith. I'm going to put a little bit of trust in this person.
And and that's maybe the beginning of a relationship, for example, with a between a man and a woman. And then and then as I get to know them, I can put a little bit more in there because I'm
getting to know what kind of a person this is. And if it's a good person, okay, now I could put even more in there. That's a knowledge. That is
evidence of things not yet seen. And they're never really seen. They are intangibles.
Just like Hebrews 11:1 talks about, the evidence of things not seen.
uh the assurance of things that are hoped for, which is the way Joseph Smith puts it. So, I just want to make clear
on that. I think that's one of the most important issues for members of the church. I think that we we we could we would be stronger. We would have a
higher retention rate if we looked at faith the same exact way as we look at the scientific method. It is the same
thing with spiritual things, with relational things, with things that are not seen, that are not physical.
31 minutesyou you you you test things out and see if they work and then and then when they work you
know you have the evidence you have the fruit of that faith that you have put in right so I think that's an important thing and the last thing I want to say
this the church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints is the greatest organization on earth
bar none and and second place isn't even close Why? Well, you can look at all the criticisms that people talk about with, okay, there's this abuse over here.
There's this bishop that did this over here. They changed the policy on this or or or on that. Uh they've got, you know,
hundreds of millions of dollars, billions of dollars in in in stocks and bonds and all of these things. Okay. I I
think actually there's good reason for that. But why is it the greatest organization on earth? Well, it's the greatest
organization on earth because it is following the will of Jesus Christ.
And and that will is that we build faith, testimony, knowledge of the gospel principles and family.
And nobody does that better than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Nobody. And all of the studies show that. All of the studies show we
are we are dropping like rocks in the water with fertility rate, but we're still better than most.
The happiness uh scale, we we are near the top or at the top in almost every one of them, especially married Latter-day Saints.
And as far as anxiety and depression and and and and these things, those are reduced for Latter-day Saints.
Latter-day Saint women are some of the happiest women in the world. And I know we get a different narrative from that, but it's not true because the narrative
is a feminist narrative which says they're oppressed in the patriarchy because the church is patriarchal because there is a hierarchal structure.
In the interview I had with Janet Ericson, who's a BYU professor of family studies, I had seen her say something really interesting. actually I don't know if it
was in my interview or not or another one but she said one of the issues that that for example I just want to bring this up that women have with the church
is that there are now so many women you know the corporations are becoming very feminized they're they're they're
totally run totally different than the way they used to be.
And there's a lot of talk about that out out there right now now and on online and and so everything's very different
and things are run a lot more off of emotion. things are run off of the feelings of of different people, the interactions, how HR works is all very
different. And and and but in those corporate situations, women see that,
oh, I can go after this position and I can go after this position just like any man can go after those positions. And
the truth is in corporate America, you probably have a better chance of getting it than a man does because that's kudos for kudos for the
for the for the company, right? Having a woman in that managerial position.
And so then they go to the church and they're seeing this in their corporate world and they go to the church, it's like, oh well, I can't obtain this. You
know, I don't ever obtain this. Not that men should seek that. I know some that do. It's pretty discouraging, but it's,
you know, not that men see that, but they're saying, "Oh, I don't it this doesn't work the way I see this in my corporate life." And that's interesting.
That's an interesting dynamic. And and I can kind of understand that, but it's not the corporate world.
It runs off of the Lord's design.
And the Lord's design is men hold the priesthood, right? They have been conferred the priesthood to run certain things. Women
receive priesthood authority in their callings from a eventually from the keys of the priesthood that that run that.
And women do a lot more in leadership positions in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints than than close to any other denomination. even
denominations that put a woman in charge, say example of a as a pastor
um as a priest in in in a deni in a in a congregation. The the overall leadership
positions and availability for women is I don't know if there's anybody that's got anything close to that.
So, but anyway, that's just an interesting dynamic of why women some women as they're looking at things in a critical theory lens, in a post-modern
lens of deconstruction and and and and etc., and then looking at things in their corporate life, oh, the church
doesn't look the same as the way corporate world looks. And maybe I don't like that. That's that that's kind of an
interesting take. Now again the the the the issue and I and I bring this up because the whole correlation between
the family proclamation and the gender roles that are specified in there the ideal not everybody follows it I get it
I have zero problem I don't judge anyone on on their choices and their needs and you know who am I to do that I I I am
not the advocacy is different right once you start advocating is that is the ideal and trying to push others to show
them that that is the best way. Now, now I've got a problem with you. That's different. And I am making a judgment off of principle, not off of your not
off of uh what your needs are individually.
That's a big distinction. But the fall from the falling away from the church, the continual falling away from the church is something that has happened
for 60 years. And even going back 60 years, so you go back about 1965, uh, 30 years before the family
proclamation, then you're looking at a time when when the vast majority of women were at home.
That and yet that's where we're seeing the individuals that were that were uh um 18 at the time and older are still
the ones that were staying closer to the church. And then we get further and further away. But that that's also where we see the the discrepancy between men
and women in the church is 1965 when there are 18 and men are 18. It's almost identical in the retention in the of of those that are now 78 79 years old.
And so it's that's brought in with the whole idea of how the gender roles have changed in the
US and in the west. And and then thirdly uh uh you have the
38 minutesuh you know the gender roles or basic thirdly it falls within that is the careerism for women. It it it just it changes
everything and the reduction of the need for men uh overall right I don't need a man and
that's a natural response to the natural woman and the natural man uh in in the world that we live in.
presiding. I don't think so, buddy.
Providing. No, I can do that, too. Uh protecting. Uh you know what? There's no marauders coming out here from the
tribes next door. So, I I think I'm good. So, it is a big change. Economics, it's just it's a huge change. I just
wanted to bring those things up and talk about them because there was there was some push back on a couple of those points that I had made in a few of the episodes over the last week or so. And
and I think they're important. I think they're interesting. The gospel is true. The church is true. The church is true.
39 minutesIt has the priesthood authority. It has the keys. Joseph Smith was a prophet. And the Book of Mormon is true.
All of those things are real. And all of those things are true. And you can have faith in those things and anchor it in actual real experience
and and knowledge. real knowledge that is much more important than just a scientific observation.
Have a great d