That Viral Church Post On Gender Roles

Maddy Packer joins Greg for a follow-up discussion on the controversial church post and BYU-Idaho video on Latter-day Saint married women and motherhood. A Gen Z voice calls out the drift on the Family Proclamation A hard look at modern LDS messaging on marriage and roles Why you should get married young We’re Losing the Ideal—And Calling It Progress Why some young LDS women are rejecting modern feminist narratives.

 Raw Transcript

All right, welcome to Quick Show. My name is Greg Matson and I am your host.
In this episode, we bring on Maddie Packer,
uh, Instagram phenom. She does a great job of articulating our beliefs in the church. She does a
great job of contrasting against lies that are perpetrated online, especially on Instagram, especially about women's
roles and uh just lies from a lot of EMO and anti- Mormon accounts on Instagram.
She also joins me to talk about the recent uh well the recent post from the
official Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints account online and from the BYU Idaho video which she also
watched. Both of which advocated for careerism for married mothers in the
church. It's very interesting thing to see because it is a direct it it's it's directly against the family
1 minuteproclamation. We just heard about the family proclamation again in conference last week. We heard about it uh the conference before. Um it's pretty
specific on what it says. And it's not that people can't have a choice on how they're going to live their lives and if they're going in their marriage it works
a little bit better this way or that way. Or some women work full-time. they don't have a choice economically and I
get all that. That that's fine. The difference is is when you take the ideal and you put it aside and you start
advocating for something different. And so Maddie comes with a a woman's perspective on this. She's uh uh Gen Z
uh young woman that uh has her head on straight and she does a fantastic job of
articulating positions and and taking cultural trends and putting them into
perspective with a gospel lens. So, I think you're really going to enjoy this.
This episode is brought to you by the Warriors of Tiana Men's Retreat. Again, I I couldn't be more excited about this.
This is going to be fantastic. It is August 13th through 15th. We're going to have great presentations there by myself, by Chadus, who the Wall Street
Journal calls one of the 10 most inspirational people in the world. We will have Gail Pulley, who has been on
the Jordan uh the Jordan Peterson podcast and teaches for Peterson Academy. He'll be talking about
abundance and super abundance. We'll have Ecoin leadership development uh with horses. We'll be on a ranch in Rush Valley, Utah. Uh great accommodations,
great food. We're going to have a capture the flag game in off-road vehicles at night. We've got hiking,
we've got fishing, we've got ski shooting, and a message that we do not hear right now. There is a void out
there. You know it, I know it in messaging to men. And so this is going to be something that is very edifying.
You will leave with tools that are applicable in your life. This is not just something you are going to fill a
notebook out and and throw away. This is going to be real. This is not fluff.
This is not a self-help program. This is not therapy. This is not therapy.
and but but it is direct, but it is also very inspirational and encouraging and all about gospel- centered masculinity.
Go to quickmedia.com, cwicdmedia.com, go up to the top, scroll to warriors,
click on there to find out more and to register. I would love to see you there.
Uh we are filling up really well with this. So, uh take a look, see what options are available and see if you want to be with us. We'd love to have you. Here we go with Maddie.
All right, welcome to Quick Show. My name is Greg Matson and I am your host.
In this episode, we bring on Mattie Packer, Instagram phenom, an LDS influencer. Welcome to the show, Maddie.
Thanks for having me. Now, do you like the word influencer?
Um, I used to not, but I'm accepting it now that I've You're kind of moving that way a little bit more, too. I I I used to really push back on that,
but it's kind of like the general word that's for everybody. What else do you call yourself? I don't know.
Yeah. Yeah. Celebrity I don't like. That's for sure. Right.
You don't want that. But anyway, so you've seen the post that was put out by the church today. I did.
In regards to it was basically uh a young man, a young married man who is um
supporting his wife, right? Who wants to be a doctor. I think she was in medical school now or something and he hasn't quite find the his career path yet, but
she's always known what she wants. And it just set off this big frenzy from two different sides in the church.
Yeah.
About okay, is this this is very different than the messaging we usually get from the church. And others are
saying, why do you have such a problem with it? You know, families can be how made up however they are. What was your take on this whole thing?
My take was it it did seem to me personally to have some type of subliminal messaging almost maybe to
address some of the cultural conversations that are happening around gender roles and marriage and you know
some of the feminist issues with you know motherhood being in the home career all of those things that we're trying to balance. So I did think it was um interesting to say the least.
Yeah, I so I I did an episode on this and uh I I just here here's what I look first
of all. Here's what I'm looking at. So I I look at a lot of things that are like in this in this social environment that we stand in. So you've got the church here in the middle. We're part of our
culture. We're certainly influenced by the culture.
Yeah. Yeah. And the culture is moving very much toward okay, we've gone from women hardly being in the workforce in the, you know, preWorld War II and then
all of a sudden moving very strongly into the workforce, especially going into the 70s. Yeah.
And we get to where we're at now and we're almost equal. It's still pretty,
it's pretty close, right? I mean, the women are a little bit fewer, but not that much. And and so it's a very accepted thing. We've got an economy
that has changed because of this, which pretty much seems most marriages demand are demanded to have or required to have a dual income to make it work even.
And so there's a little bit more of an acceptance of this,
but we're still seeing the consequences of of what this brings of of waiting for marriage, of waiting or not having kids at all.
Yep. uh fertility rate, which interestingly that post came out yesterday and and it was the same day
that the that the Census Bureau and the CDC came out saying that US has a record low fertility rate on the same day.
There is and this is the message. So, how do you how do you work with this? I mean, the church certainly understands that the
fertility rate in the church is not as low as everywhere else, but it's still following the same trend.
Yeah. I think what's interesting is that a lot of times we put the main issue of
of that it's the working like oh well we've taught women aren't allowed to work and it's never necessarily been
that. It's always been a set of priorities that when followed give the best outcome for everyone involved
including and especially I would say children. Um, the interesting thing about so many of these conversations that it that I have found and some of my
8 minutesfriends have found is that it so often it so often centers around what adults want typically, especially women in
these conversations. And we never bring in what's maybe best for children and what's maybe best for the marriage or
family as a whole. And so what I wish we could do in in any of these conversations that we're trying to have or open or discuss that we would bring
into them the interests and the desires and the needs of the children as well because I do think it's really lacking
in in these um these topics that we're continuing to see be controversial and and popular and needed and necessary and
whatever it is. I am a little worried that it's all about the me and it's not about anyone else.
So, is this a is this a a narcissistic move and trend in in our society? I say I would say so for sure.
Okay. So, the question then is is you we we've gotten certain messages in the church, right? You got the family
proclamation. Certainly, President Oaks has been pretty firm with that. It's President Christo or President Christopherson now and others and and we
see it as an inspired document, but it seems to be that it's it's almost poo pooed in these
conversations. And it doesn't mean that everybody fits into the same thing. The problem I always have with these things is look, I this couple, hey, if they
work this out and they're able to make it work and they're happy and and it's,
you know, great, you go do you, right? I I don't care. Whatever. I'm not going to tell judge somebody else.
What I don't like and what I worry about is more the messaging of this whole thing. In other words, someone or a
group of people came together and said, "Let's put this message out. This isn't a retweet of of
something this guy put up. This is a message directly from the church's account." Yeah.
Social media account. Right. So there's a group there somewhere that that said,
"Yeah, this is a great message to put out. Let's put this message out."
Do you see what their reasoning might be for this? What What would you see as motivation for posting something like this?
It's hard to say. um because I don't want to assume but when I look at it like face value sometimes I see these
sentiments as a type of pandering to certain groups and ideologies to almost uh I don't know give them a little bit
of like validation even if it maybe is contrary to some of the mainstream narratives the church has pushed. Um,
for example, I do think it's interesting that the young men's and the young women's themes are different in the sense that the young men's theme
specifically states that young men should prepare for fatherhood or being husbands and fathers.
11 minutesUh, that wording is specific. If you read the young women's theme, there is no specific language about preparing to be mothers and wives. And I feel like that's deliberate.
So, do you think that's pandering to some degree? I mean, is that is that I Okay, let me let me let me pull back that. Let's put you on the spot. But do
you think that do you think that uh let's say let's put it this way. Let's use a proxy. Let's say that looking at
society period with young women, are we removing the messaging of motherhood?
I think the church does a good job of keeping it alive more than anything like more than any other source or
institution in Yes. in the in our culture and in our society, but it does sometimes still feel like there's some
of somewhat of a I don't know, pandering maybe is not the right word, but somewhat of like a trying to come together with that mainstream culture to
maybe feel a little less different or a little less, I don't know, radical, if you really want to call motherhood,
emphasizing motherhood radical. Um, and I think the intentions are probably good to try to make people feel like there is
a place for them, that their sentiments are heard, that they can be included.
Um, but I also feel like we can't at the same time sacrifice those fundamental important messages that are going to be
very unpopular as the world grows farther and farther away from the gospel truths. So, how do you manage that then? I mean,
because this is always the same problem. It's this issue of acceptance, affirmation, and and you know,
it's it's an it's an issue of empathy. Correct.
Right. It's an issue of empathy. It's say, "Okay, well, I want to empathize with someone who's got a difficult circumstance or they maybe they take a different little bit of a different path. Want them to know that we love
them, we we put our arms around them, we support them, and at the same time hold on and being tethered to truths and
principles." But but sometimes we don't seem to do a very good job of hanging on to those principles.
Yeah, I would agree. I I do feel like maybe the better effort would in trying to help trying to help people,
especially women, maybe kind of pull at the thread of some of these cultural narratives that have become so ingrained
in our society and in our culture. I mean, feminism ideology has shaped almost every aspect of our modern culture, whether we are aware of it or
not. It really has. And it's almost so subconscious at this point that we don't even sometimes realize that that's the messaging we're getting in certain
scenarios. And so I feel like a good effort would be to maybe instead of try to fit in with those narratives, explain
why maybe those are flawed and that it's okay to expand our thinking and question whether or not those things are actually true.
You seem to do a pretty good job of that when on your on your Instagram account as an example and you're kind of taking examples in and then you're trying to contrast maybe uh sometimes it's funny.
Um, but I if we're so immersed in this,
it's kind of like the frog sitting in the water, right? That just gets hotter and hotter and hotter. We don't realize it's boiling. And I think it is boiling
at this point. I think that water is boiling. Yeah. So,
how do you how do you unravel that? How do you pull on the threads of that without looking like a jerk?
It's hard. Sometimes I'm accused of being a jerk.
Um, I think what is interesting is maybe showing with love and compassion that the outcomes of of some of these things.
For example, getting married young. I think we can show that the outcomes of that are not scary in very easy ways by
helping others see our own lives, by talking about our own experiences. I do feel like a lot of it needs to come from
an inner almost grassroots movement of members in the church to share with the world uh how they feel about motherhood,
the blessings that we've received from things like having children even if it's difficult or even if we're uncertain
about the state of the world. And so I don't even know really from like the church's perspective or from their point
of view what the best move is. Um, I think maybe this is something members need to take upon themselves to stand up
for the doctrine and to share those aspects of our lives with the people around us.
Um,
like I, you know, I put out a video today and this happens to me sometimes and I don't agree with it, but like some someone called me an extremist today for
bringing up the fact that it's okay to hold on to the ideal of a traditional family, right?
That's all. So, so you're we're moving that culture is moving further and further distant from what we would call core principles of the gospel of family
and that organization that order and and so in a sense I guess we do become a little bit extreme based on the rest of the culture
right we get further and further away there's there's going to be conflict with that
certainly I mean to bring something up and say hey what about this what about even bringing up a different idea on
something when when when a narrative is so strongly formed. Yeah.
Is is really you're kind of coming in from the outside to some degree and there there's going to be push back,
right? Almost every time there's going to be push back.
Yeah. I I just think it's so funny that a lot of these things that we get accused of specifically like in in our
17 minuteschurch or in in Mormonism are things that are not exclusive to Mormonism or that have existed long before our church
was organized. For example, marriage and family. Um, people will say like I just watched a Mormon stories segment where
basically a woman was saying that Mormonism groomed her to be a mother.
And my first problem with that was I really hope that you don't speak about motherhood like that in front of your children because surely that wouldn't
make them feel loved. But then my second thought is just if we actually start questioning the logic of some of these
arguments, I think they fall apart pretty fast. For example, people have been raised to marry and have children
uh basically since the dawn of civilization. And so to say that it was Mormonism that pushed a very this very regressive
uh oppressive institution on me just you know to jab at the church because we have personal vendettas against the
church I think is super logically inconsistent. And so for me I feel like with my page that's that's kind of what I I do. It's kind of what I've done my
whole life. Just from a young age, I've kind of had to defend my beliefs and and being a member of the church. But if you can show the contrast of those logical
inconsistencies and these arguments, I feel like it really does go a long way in helping people understand. But, you know, some of these things that we just kind of label radical or extremist or,
you know, uh, regressive, they're not really that regressive if you actually think about it with a little bit of brain power.
Well, and the other thing is all of the studies, right? You can run it through numerous studies, social studies that show all of these things very clearly,
and it's not like one little one is an anomaly. It's all of them. Yeah.
For the most part, are are saying these things. For example,
um men and women that get married earlier have a better chance of a long-term marriage. The the argument is just the opposite typically that we hear. Well,
you don't know what you're doing. And of course they'll bring up examples and certainly there are examples and there are people that maybe weren't ready to get married and etc. But overall
men and women that get married between 20 and 25 actually have a better chance at a long-term marriage than those that get married after 25 years old. Yeah.
So you know the these kind of stats are pretty important to understand and to see. The other thing is again the fertility rate continues to drop. What
does that mean? Why why are men and women getting married at a later date?
Why are they holding it off longer? Uh I know there's dating issues and other things that are going on there as well.
Uh holding off kids. A lot of these things become economic reasons that they're doing this, but I I don't know.
I mean, I'm a little older. When we when we did this, it was it was that was our plan the entire time. You know, we knew
going in, okay, you're going to stay home once we have kids. That's what she my wife wanted to do. We did that almost our entire marriage until we were empty nesters.
Yeah. And that was we would sacrifice for it.
My parents when they they got divorced when I was six and my younger brother was born after they were divorced,
right? By the time the divorce came through, my brother was actually born after they were divorced.
And and so here they are, two really good people. They couldn't live together, but they both agreed, okay, my mom needs to stay home with the kids.
So, my dad went out and worked and made sure that we had what we needed. I mean,
we lived on powdered milk and macaroni basically for years. But, but we did what we had to do and they both
agreed they were going to do this. And until my they what they did is until my that baby that my brother was off to kindergarten then she went off and
started substitute teaching and doing a few other things and then be ended up being a full-time teacher. But I I that that would be crazy today. I think in so
many cases people would think that that's ridiculous. Why would you sacrifice so much to have a mom home in the at home with the kids?
Yeah. My my husband worked he worked two jobs for years so that I could be home with our son. Uh and he finally this
past year was able to excuse me. He was finally this past year able to quit that second job.
Um thank goodness it's been such a blessing. But you do you make sacrifices for the things that you value. And um I I've heard it said a lot that you know
it's a it's a privilege to have uh a parent stay home because because yes that the economy is definitely rough. Um
however in many cases it's actually it's not really a privilege because people can't afford child care and child care
is so expensive that even if you wanted to work could you afford to to pay for that? And so I just I don't know if the economic argument is really a good one,
22 minutesespecially because there have been there have been times in the past in our in our country, especially like the Great Depression, where times have been much
much harder and people were still getting married and having children. Um I I personally think it's much more of a
um an interest issue. People, especially women, are very uninterested in having children and getting married because
it's been framed as oppressive. It's been framed as you have to sacrifice your identity. You have to sacrifice
your your dreams. Um, and you can't pursue the things that bring you actual fulfillment in life because children get
in the way and marriage get in the way of that because being with men, hold you back, they they oppress you, whatever
the narrative is. So I think it's actually a moral interest issue rather than mo mainly an economic issue that we're not having children.
So you're part of Gen Z, right? Yes, I'm 28. You're 28. Okay, I think that's right.
So in some ways in in in your content,
I think you're especially targeting Gen Z women, women in their 20s especially. I mean, it goes beyond that obviously, but I think I think that a
lot of the issues that you're addressing are issues that are of interest to to young women, right? What happened to you? Why why are you so different?
Why why are you seeing this? Because you're obviously seeing this as a a trend that you don't like and that you want to push against. So, you're in some
cases feeling to some degree like a minority, I would think,
right, of of of an attitude that you have. How did that happen?
Well, you know, I was I was raised in the church. My parent my mother was a stay-at-home mother. Um, and she valued
her role as a mother, and I never heard her ever complain that I had taken her dreams or that I had uh been an
impediment in her life in any way. So, I thank her for that because I didn't realize that that was actually um a blessing to have that in a mother. Um,
but I did grow up in a place where I was one of, if not really the only member in my community and I was I lived in a very pro socially progressive culture. Um,
and so I was really one of the only like I I remember in middle school saying something along the lines to my friends of, "Yeah, when I when I'm older, I I
just really want to be a mother because that's kind of what my mother had done and her mother." And um, so it was something I was raised to believe and value. And when I told my peers this,
they were like, they were just shocked.
It was like heresy. I had just committed cultural heresy. What? You just, you want to be a mom? Don't you want to go to school? Don't you want to have a
career? And I remember that I think that was like maybe eighth grade the first time this happened or seventh grade. And I remember it really like it really hit
me because I was like, "Oh my gosh, wait a second. Am I crazy? Am I like am I missing something here?" And and so I
went through high school and I, you know, built my testimony. I had to figure a lot of things out for myself. I was challenged in many many ways because
again I had no support from really any other members except maybe leaders. Um but I was on my own in this community
and I had to question do I really believe these things? And anyway, along those lines, so many of these conversations would come up because, you
know, members of the church are known for getting married and having children. And I was question on that all the time.
And it really came from just observing uh what other people kind of presented as the alternative, how other people
chose to live and and what decisions people were making that I really could see kind of like a bigger perspective
and kind of question, you know, well, is that narrative actually going to bring women empowerment? Is that actually
bringing them happiness? Because what I was seeing was a lot of women that were unhappy. A lot of women that didn't know
what their purpose was. A lot of women that they went to school and once school was over they they didn't know what to do with their lives. They didn't know,
you know, what was out there for them.
Things like this. And so I think from a young age I just I was willing to be unpopular if it meant that I could
pursue and follow what was true and what was actually following logic and and statistics and things like this because
I found that so much of these nar so many of these narratives were very um hypocritical were very lacking in the
almost like the scripture where where it says you know in the end the devil won't support you. there's there's all this bait and it sounds nice, but then you
kind of just fall flat. And I I just I I went through those lessons in high school and really learned for myself that you know what, maybe there's something
to the church teaching these principles about the family that's actually helping society and that actually leads men and
women to what is, you know, the most ideal or the most beneficial situation for all of us.
So, one of the arguments I hear on this and I heard today on this episode as well is um but the family proclamation says that we are equal partners,
right? So, I I hear that one all the time that some that that seems to be an easy thing to go in and kind of regurgitate and put out there. Well, it
doesn't matter who works. It doesn't matter. We're all supposed to be the same. Um we're equal partners in this.
They never go back and refer to the actual place in the profile proclamation where it actually talks about the gender roles uh in there. Nobody likes to talk about that part,
but the equal partners is is typically in there. Is it there? It's kind of a it seems like there's almost a there is
28 minutesalmost a fight out there for sameness to some degree. I mean, women have taken on so much masculinity in the world where
they're taking on the burdens of of work and and and other things that uh that men typically have done. Yeah.
And there is a feminization of of men happening as well, I think, out there.
So, you you've kind of got these there is a sameness that is happening to some degree, right? Why why do you think
there's such a a I don't know a a a this this vision of equity between men and women that says
well women should be masculine and men should be feminine.
Yeah. Um, I mean, I don't know. When I think about this topic, I I kind of have to go historically thinking back to like
the roots of the feminist movement. And so many, especially, I would say the second wave, so many feminists were very
anti-woman in their sentiments. They viewed their biology and they viewed their reproductive capabilities as
impediments to basically doing what men were doing. And so from a from that perspective, it was almost like women
didn't want to be women. They wanted to be men. Um, feminizing men happens basically when you shame the men out of
their masculinity. I don't even really know if the feminists are telling the men to to go be stay-at-home dads. I think some of them are, but I honestly
see just mainly this we don't need men at all. And so when men don't have that mantle of some type of purpose and some
type of honor, dignity, and the masculinity, it's going to go away. It's going to dissipate and they're going to be floating around in this kind of
ambiguity of what does it mean to be a man?
And so when when it's unpopular to be masculine, when it's unpopular to be a man, you maybe start conforming to
what's cool, which is trying to be a womanly man. I don't know. It's a very weird phenomenon. Yeah. Yeah, it is odd. It's strange.
There's all It's also messaging, right?
So, you talk about uh you know, maybe it's too toxic to be male. It's too toxic to be masculine. Um but I I think
that the concern I have on the men's side with all of this is that the worst thing you can do, and you see this all the time now, especially with younger
men, is move into a position of victimhood,
right? You are getting hammered with things. you are beaten down. Yes. School is mostly built for women and for young girls and and not for boys.
Yeah.
And you know all you've got all these environments where it's it can be much more difficult for for young men to succeed and to move forward socially or
any other way. Um you've got 60% now women in college, 60% in master's degrees and higher than that in PhD
degrees. So you've got a 50% surplus of women over men in in education. You're just moving through education. I mean,
31 minuteswe're we're moving very different in a very odd direction that is not good for women either,
right? Because women are not going to be as interested in men that aren't as educated as them or don't have as much capacity to earn,
right, income. And and so it's it's a it's an upside down world that we're heading to. I'm trying to think of where I was going with all of this, but the v
oh the victimhood, right? You end up with you end up with guys that are they blame women. They might blame the
church, right? They blame society uh because of the position that they they find themselves in. That's the most
unmasculine thing you can do is put yourself in as a victim. And and that's what I try to tell a lot of guys is look, you cannot come from that area.
You can't go to an Andrew Tate or Nick Fuentes. can't go to these positions because because I understand you're looking for a purpose and you're looking for messaging,
but it's the wrong messaging. Yeah.
But they don't have it. They have no messaging to begin with. We don't even get a lot. I mean, honestly, we don't get a lot in the church either from No, it's it's true. And I do think it's
it's problematic because you know women a lot of times are demanding women only spaces and you know womenowned
businesses and in these things and that they're proud that they don't have males in certain you know circles and yet men
are not allowed to have male only spaces where they can get that support and they can get that brotherhood which just like women they need community and they need
brotherhood women need sisterhood and yet they're kind of denied that in these faces as well. And I do think it's problematic.
Did you see the uh recent video from BYU Idaho?
I did. And I thought that one was a little more interesting than the church's post.
It was It was much more interesting. Let me just summarize for the audience here.
Um, it's a younger male, uh, married woman, member of the church, and she
starts off saying that she, I think she had said that she always saw herself working. I can't remember if that's what she started with, but I think she'd always seen herself as someone that
would, you know, a worker, someone who was going to be have a career.
And uh and that she uh worked starting off and she was supporting her husband through school and she had her first
child and she still needed to support her husband through school and uh and support the fa support the family. And
then and then she gets to this point and she actually says this and it's just so strange to me. Again, I I I I don't care
as much about her position and her husband and what they do with her family. And, you know, that's an individual choice. I I still worry about
the messaging and who's putting this together, who's directing it, and who's helping with the script and the questions and everything else, right?
But then she says, she has her second child and she says, "Uh, I didn't have to work anymore."
So this is this is the point of the message that that they're putting out at BYU Idaho, right? It's I didn't have to
work anymore. And so this was the hardest decision I had to make, but I decided to go ahead and work anyway,
right? And then she goes on and gives this idea of the the parable of the talent and how, you know, she wants to be able to invest in herself and that's
becoming more like heavenly father and God because she's expressing herself and that's filling her with joy. It's and she actually talks about creation, but
but I mean the best way you can be a creator is a mother. But it it was just so odd to me. And again, I don't know if I'm
surprised about it or or or not, but it's the the the ultimate decision here,
and she can make her own decision. I'm glad she's got choices, but uh the the the message putting being put out there
is well, you you don't here's a good thing to do. here's a good option for you. And and so we are moving toward culture within the church,
right? We are moving toward the broader culture. And let me add this also. You end up in a position where
more and more women in the church are single.
More and more men too, but you have more and more single women that are in the church. um you have more and more women
than men now, which is odd at switched that are leaving the church. Mhm.
And so the messaging from the church there, you know, you want to make sure you message to the women, but then you get up with this cycle,
right? This spiral. Well, who are you who are we messaging to? Well, there's a lot of single women we're going to message to. So, we have to message about that. There's a lot of working women
that we're messaging to. So, we've got to bring that in and talk about that.
And so you get this cycle of almost a reinforcement of of a of a non ideal situation.
Yeah. Well, and I thought I just thought some of her um word choice was really interesting when she implied she was
basically implying that she wouldn't be able to have developed skills um in her home as a mother. that that
basically would have held her back from developing fully as a woman. And I I thought that was problematic. I I think
that is 100% first of all not true and totally the wrong messaging to share about motherhood. Look, motherhood is
already under attack. I I feel like the predominant narrative is that women should be working and being boss babes.
Okay? Like that is the predominant mainstream narrative of our culture. So,
if anything, we need to support the motherhood narrative. We need to support the fact that um you're not going to be uh erased as a person in motherhood.
You're not going to lose uh your your sense of identity necessarily as a mother, that you're not going to be missing out, that you that you're not
reaching your fullest potential if you choose to not pursue a career. And so I thought that messaging like you're talking about that was very problematic
when we value motherhood and we believe it's the highest calling that a woman could could achieve. And I also thought
it was interesting that she said um multiple times, I'm putting my skills in the driver's seat. She said something like that. Exactly.
My skills. And I didn't really know what that meant. It didn't it didn't make sense. But she was trying to say I'm putting my needs first without actually
saying I'm putting my needs first. And it's actually not selfish of me to do that because I want everyone to put
their needs first. And then she talked about her daughters and she said, "I hope my daughter can be creative and I hope my daughter can have, you know, her
imagination can take her places." And I think again we're saying if you're a mother only, you know, maybe you don't
have a career and you're a mother that those things die and mothers aren't creative and mothers aren't imaginative and mothers don't have passions and they
can't develop themselves. And I just that's to me very very toxic and untrue and quite honestly offensive because
you're you're basically saying these these women that choose to to forgo a career path, they're really not they're
not actually like fully developing themselves into the people they could be if they chose to leave the home for XYZ.
Well, she goes to the she goes to the length of basically saying that because I'm pursuing a career that is pursuit of becoming celestial. That is pursuit of
of becoming like our heaven our heavenly father heavenly parents. Yeah.
You know, and so I I just I I just find it so odd that in the environment that we live in, as you say, and that
narrative that's so prevalent out there that we are helping to support that in in in some way. It it doesn't make any
think of this. Let's say I I mean I don't know the last time I saw a message internally we'll say that that was all
about motherhood right about oh there is a choice I could have chosen to go to work but I chose to
be a stay-at-home mom or I chose to have a part-time job instead or or whatever it is right and or you know I can work
remotely and this helped you know anything that that I want to be in the home as much as possible with my kids. Yeah.
And how would the reaction be on that?
And and I think that there would be an outcry. I really do. I I because we haven't seen it in so long. They used to have those Mormon messages.
That's the last time I remember that type of a message, you know, maybe in the 2000s that was going out.
Yeah. Well, um, I think this has been something that's happened quite often,
uh, around Mother's Day. I know it happened to me and my one of my wards we were living in, and it happened in, uh,
40 minutesmy my in-laws ward and their kind of stake meetings. But when Mother's Day comes around, there's actually been a
very odd emp like emphasis to tell um the ward members and bishops to not
overly emphasize and glorify motherhood in the sacrament meeting of the day because it might be offensive. And I
remember I was very disappointed because I as someone I've I've experienced pregnancy loss. And so when I had my son and it was my first Mother's Day, it was
actually the first Sunday I went back to church after he was born. It was Mother's Day and I was actually like so excited. I was like, I have my baby with
me. I can celebrate this in a way I wish I could have celebrated it earlier. And I I was looking forward to hearing the
messages and you know just you know motherhood is amazing and beautiful and and I could finally like participate in that unique way this time. And it was
there was nothing there was nothing about motherhood there. They purposely purposefully avoided it. And I remember
feeling very shocked and hurt and why would they avoid because it might offend someone? Well, you know what? you
offended me because I'm a mother and today's Mother's Day.
Yeah. And we can't talk about it. It's very odd that we we fight almost against ourselves to just be
honest about these things that we do believe doctrinally and we believe um you know socially are amazing and beautiful and sacred responsibilities
that need to be fulfilled. I mean the entire plan of salvation can't happen if people aren't being born. Uh, I don't know. It's interesting.
Well, it's the same thing. It's it's a it's breaking down the ideal, right? I mean, none of us have an ideal life.
None of us actually fill a role ideally,
but there is an ideal that we can look toward and there's an ideal we can support and we can fight for. Like I said, my my parents were split when I
42 minuteswas six years old. And my my mom didn't remarry, but my dad remarried and had four more kids with his second wife. And and uh but everybody, my my my stepmom,
my mom, my dad, everybody tried to make it as ideal as possible, right? And and they and they still taught the same thing to all of us about, hey, go out,
get married, have kids, here's your role, here's your role. You know, the same ideal was still taught even though we didn't live it completely.
Yeah.
But we tried to build it. I mean, my step brothers and sisters are the same to me as as my full brothers and sisters, right? It's not my step my half brothers and sisters, it's the same
thing. There's no difference because of how they did that.
And and so it's the same thing with motherhood. I mean, if we're going to break down that ideal, if we're going to bring it off of a pedestal Yeah.
and say, well, you know, we don't want to hurt anybody's feelings. that that's a you can't do that. Once you break the ideal, once you move from the ideal,
it's over. It's done. Yeah.
43 minutesYou'll not there will be no pursuit for it whatsoever. And so I I think that's sad. I've seen the same thing in awards. Uh,
of course, I see the same thing for fatherhood. You know, often times that one sometimes they don't even they don't even bring it up. They don't even say anything.
Um, so anyway, yeah, that's well just, you know, it's a it's a sad thing that so many people struggle with
infertility or it's a sad thing that people are offended that motherhood is so sacred in general,
but like you're saying, it doesn't take away the fact that we still need parenthood, we still need mothers, we still need fathers, and our society needs them. And so even if you can't,
you know, personally participate in that like you're like you're talking about,
we still need to be supporting and finding ways to make it possible and supported for the people who can and
will. Um because if if nobody does, then again, society's falling apart. We're
not replacing ourselves and no one's being born. So yeah. So with Gen Z women, women in
their, let's say, in their 20s, early 30s,
what what is the solution? Can we turn the tide? Can can that tide be turned? Are we too far gone? And and if we are going
to try and push against it, I saw you had a discussion, I think it was with Carden on uh cultural culture wars.
Um what what do we do? How do we how do we how do we pull the threads on this?
I know it's a good question. It's what I'm I'm trying to answer every day. I'm trying to ask myself what is the solution? The only thing I can really
think of is it took a lot of propaganda to get us to this point. It's going to take a lot of opposite propaganda to swing us back. And so I think it's going
to be I think it's going to be women getting online because that's the public domain. That's where public discourse is happening. And it's going to be pushing
back. It's going to be having to be outspoken. I think it is going to have to be a type of grassroots movement because no one else I think no one else
is going to do it from from the powerful people in our society, from the media,
from celebrities. You're never going to see that. And so it's gonna have to be from women who love motherhood, love the
gospel, and are willing to be bold and brave and fight back against it to try to show, like I say, try to show that
contrast of what this person is saying and what this person is saying and where is the truth. I think it's going to take influencers, honestly.
So, I want to send as many people to your account as possible. Where do people find you?
I'm on Instagram at theshure foundation and Tik Tok is the same. The Sure Foundation.
The The Sure Foundation. Well, keep doing what you're doing. I really appreciate it. You're bright. You're articulate and you contrast things very
very well. So, I hope I hope I'll put a link to your uh to your accounts in in the description box and get as many people over there as we can. Thanks for
your work and thanks for speaking up and and I it just makes me happy that you have such a because guys can't really do this, right? this has to be women true
helping out and having voices on this and so and there is kind of an explosion of new influencers as we say uh online
which is great it's fantastic and and in pushing back on this but uh thanks for all you do really appreciate it thank you Greg