Listen To Women? feat. Amanda Freebairn

Amanda Freebairn talks about what Latter-day Saint women mean when they say, "Listen To Women." Sometimes "you're not listening" can mean "you're not agreeing with me."

 Raw Transcript

all right so in this episode we are talking about what do women mean or certain women mean when they say listen
to women we consult Amanda Freebar who writes oftentimes for public square magazine she recently wrote an article
called listening to women or listening through the narrative we prefer question
mark i think you're going to find it very interesting this episode is brought to you by Go and Do Travel and the
Wavemakers podcast cruise this is November 15th through 22nd and it's
going to be a blast we have Jacob Hansen of Thoughtful Faith Cardon Ellis of Ward Radio the Paul brothers from the Stick
of Joseph David Boyce of 52 Churches in 52 weeks Jasmine Rapolley and Dave
Butler of Plain and Precious Saints will be traveling down the Baja Coast this gives us a great chance to take our
online community and bring everybody together face to face it's going to be great if you want to learn more or
register go to quickdia.com go to the top at trips and events click and then go down to Wavemakers podcast cruise
here's the interview [Music]
all right welcome to Quick Show my name is Greg Matson and I am your host in this
episode we bring back Amanda Freebar amanda welcome back hi thanks for having me well you wrote an article recently
for Public Square magazine uh in response to the little
spat with Jared Halverson and Faith Matters uh just a couple of months ago u
let me start with this question when a woman of faith says "Listen to women,"
what is she saying well I think that um
it Latter Day Saint women have a variety of of viewpoints i would never want to
say there is one specific thing that that Latter-day Saint women um
think but often Latter-day Saint women um faithful Latter- Day Saint women are busy we're working we're taking care of
children where um we're serving in our churches and our communities and uh
oftentimes our voices are are not necessarily the loudest ones that you see on social media um in any
demographic always the the kind of most extreme voices are the ones who um are
the loudest that we hear the most from and so um my my point is that Latter-day
Saint women um there are many Latter- Day Saint women who who love their their
place in the church there are many Latter Day Saint women who love um the the uh support network of the Relief
Society and they love the um the the roles that women play they they
appreciate and respect the gender divisions that we have within the church and so um when I say listen to women in
the church I mean talk to your sisters and your neighbors and your friends who are in your local community rather than
those loudest voices that you see online so it it seems though when you hear the
loudest voices because you do you do specify the loudest voices that those are the ones that are saying listen to
women would you agree with that sure i mean I think that I think that
objectively it is a good thing to listen to women i think that when we say listen
to women though um whether it is um more sort of orthodox um Latter Day Saint
women or more progressive or former Latter Day Saints um we can all have a tendency to say when I say listen to me
women I mean women who think like me um and we do need to listen to all voices
um I I but we cannot we cannot make space to validate all
voices not all voices can be accommodated um at the same time it just
just doesn't work like that in a faith community um so so there there does end
up needing to be sort of a prioritization um with who the voices that we choose to
listen to are well sometimes I think that when when and and this could be anybody but but you know we're talking
specifically about a few women here that are saying "Listen to me." And I've been in those experiences i've spoken to
those individuals often and and and it I don't always get this sense that listen
means listen right often it means uh validate me um a discard your previous
uh perspective or worldview in order to um agree with mine um and that's just
not always going to going to be the case we can we can listen and we can um
validate those things that we at least find understandable or or try to find
some common ground but um listening is not the same thing as changing your perspective and we could never
um it it just doesn't make sense the idea that every perspective we listen to we have to change our mind and we would
never be able to um have have a a perspective at all that makes any sense
so you let's put this into context a little bit here this is you know that with Jared Halverson who I think is
fantastic love Jared uh he's giving his own uh kind of come follow me uh video
on doctrine covenant i think it was section 23 if I'm not mistaken i can't remember for sure he's talking about
Emma and and as he's talking about this he also brings in recent studies which I
have read that came out a couple of years ago in 2023 from Pew and others
and and it was showing how in Christianity as a whole
there are now more women especially younger that are leaving Christianity
than men are leaving Christianity and and this was the context that he was
giving this in and then there was this big backlash this big uh you know in the comments
section it was it was he was really getting some stones hurled at him for saying some of these things and and I
thought what did he say i I don't understand what he is he saying here and
then he went on uh trying to do the best that he could i in in in going onto a
podcast with uh a few women um sponsored by Faith Matters and I went through the
whole thing listened to that whole thing and the primary subject was again
putting this into context was you're not listening to women or this is why you need to listen to women but I didn't
hear anything in his his episode that said anything about not
listening to women or or closing the door on women's voices or or anything like that can you make sense of that for
me why why is why are the why is that the reaction when this is not what he said sure sure i think Jared was making
um a a point to faithful Latter-day Saint women that hey um many of the
women around you um are struggling and you need to step up you need to bear
testimony you need to share your witness with others you need to support the women around you because women are
struggling and women of faith can can help them this is a message that um is
much more it's a softer version than the message men get all the time step up do
better stop watching porn get your life together and and um immerse yourself in
the gospel and he was giving a really really soft version of that um in I
thought a very respectful sort of way um and but the the the subtext was
um from the critics that obviously there is
a reason that women are are struggling are leaving and instead of instead of
validating those reasons those those social issues um like LGBT the the
division of gender roles um instead of instead of saying "Yeah there's a reason
there's a good reason for you to leave." Instead he said "Women you need to hold
to the faith." Um and and I think that women who were struggling were frustrated because he didn't say but
there's good reason for women to not like Christianity right now um
do you do you think the reaction would have been any different if it was a woman that had a platform that was
giving that message yes um I I think that it would have been
a little bit harder to criticize however we have historically the women um for
example sister leaders like Julie B beck the the ones who are a little bit um who
take kind of a firmer hand when when they speak to women um they do they do
tend to get a lot of push back they're often called you know cold unfeilling um
and so I I don't think necessarily that it would have been wellreceived if it would have been given by a women woman
but it is a little bit harder when it comes from a man so is the message that's being returned saying don't ask
anything of us right right or don't ask anything of us just validate us give us
the comfort of the gospel jesus loves me and but don't ask anything of me exactly
it is the message is it is really really hard to be a Christian woman it is
really really hard to be a Latter-day Saint women woman there are too many expectations placed on us we have to
take care of the babies we have to do all the things don't expect us to be happy about it um the underlying idea is
that it's it's just not fair it's what the responsibilities the gender um
distributed responsibilities the way that we do it either in Christianity or Latter-day Saints in specific is is not
fair you know I also got I saw some of the comments on his video and some of it
was because he was saying to step up he was saying "We need you." I mean and honestly if you read Isaiah it is
unfortunately it's the last kind of line that the people of God have and that's
the women it's like the men are going to fall first and then if the women fall you kind of know you're already really in trouble right which if anything is
giving a uh an olive branch so to speak to women I think and saying you're the
stronger ones and you're holding on longer and and he was talking about that a little bit but uh I from from a man's
perspective then what are are men allowed to talk about
women's issues in in that sense to know you know or how should a man approach that differently or what is the tactful
way of doing it because if you're a man and you say you think okay well I can't say anything about this or I can't study
it or I can't bring up data which is all he was doing right uh Jared then then
how how do you approach that I don't think there's any way for a man to kind
of avoid those sort of landmines I I that doesn't mean I don't think men
should speak on these issues i think that men when they want to talk about
issues that are particular to women kind of need to be prepared that there's going to be this sort of backlash from
more progressiveleaning women um you can approach it I think in a way that
validates feelings without validating a rejection of the gospel you
can point to the things that are challenge the unique challenges that women face um you can um ask for
feedback the way that Jared kind of tried to he tried to go about um asking
for feedback but generally I think the better way to ask for feedback is asking for feedback from the women in your own
lives and communities instead of the women on the internet um yeah I kind of felt I kind of felt like I watched that
that podcast uh with him and and the three women i I felt like it was a struggle session that he was going
through at that point it was kind of like we we need to change your mind we need to you know validate what we're
saying and change we need to change your mind and that seemed to be more of the agenda than I I I I went through the
whole thing i don't know if they ever specifically went back to anything he specifically said in in in his pod in
his podcast and I think what's ironic is that sort of does point to the difference between men and women right
men tend to I I'm sure that he approached the situation wanting to
solve the problem men like to solve problems women tend more to not be
looking for a solution to pro to the problem but to be look they're looking to feel heard and I think that that's
just totally normal and it's okay but it can get out of control it can be um just
just like it's a problem when husbands are always trying to fix their wives problems without listening to them at
the same time it can also be a problem when we're just so overly focused on everybody hearing our feelings and
everybody telling us "Yes that must be so hard where we can't even ever try to
fix a problem or fix our perspective." Yeah okay i'm going to quote you here
from your article you you said we must choose which voices we listen to we cannot hear and validate all
perspectives we cannot agree with everyone in other words just give give an affirmation to everyone that that had
brings a different perspective to us right so you seem to be saying here and this is kind of a a leading question but
you seem to be saying that a uh a universal tolerance is is not the
answer to this yes so on on a personal level on a community-based level I will
listen as long as they're kind and respectful I will listen to perspectives
of my friends from a variety of different backgrounds beliefs I will if
somebody wants to talk to me about their problems with the church with women's roles I'm happy to listen to those
things however when we are when we're talking about social media podcasts all
of these um online sources that are constantly surrounding us all the time
we do have to sort of be a little bit more selective
um in terms of what what is what is building me up what is helping me um get
to my goals in um in terms of building my relationship with the savior in terms
of you know being uh a better Latter-day Saint serving my ward and my community
better those have to be the priorities and the priorities cannot be listening to everyone you know with a with an
Instagram profile and all their comments yeah yeah I think being kind is important and and listening is important
as you said the issue goes when the issue comes up when you go beyond that i think right where you're saying
I'm not going to stand on truth i I'm just going to affirm everything everything is good uh every perspective
is good every uh statement is good and and and so you know there's a big
difference i know you know we're we're we're asked not to be contentious right
but there is going to be conflict in your life trying not to be contentious does not mean you're not going to have conflict right in your life and it's
just a part of life uh so being kind and I think and and and
tolerant as far as listening to somebody I think is really important but when you untether that from truth
then then there's a problem and and it's it's you know and the more we retreat on that
I think there's a problem also so the question is is okay if I don't retreat am I being contentious
you know and and and if I'm standing on truth and not affirming everything everyone says am I being contentious am
I uh you know without trying to be right
without trying to go out and just cause a debate cause a problem am I being contentious because I'm
standing on truth right I think the key for avoiding contention in those
situations is just knowing knowing when to when and how to respectfully end a conversation um often times if we are
trying to stand on truth I think we can cause contention by belaboring points
even if we believe that we are standing up for the uh our gospel principles um
but on the other end you you do have to you do have to know when a conversation
is is not productive and may even be counterproductive um but I don't think
there's like a particular amount of truth um that
I don't think that necessarily standing up for what you believe in is is contentious even when you're discussing
it with someone who doesn't agree yeah and then the other thing that is an element in all of this right is
being right is not important more important than the person you're speaking to i think that's an important
principle to understand you know you being right is not as important as the person and often times we want to so
desperately put what we know is right out there right to regardless of if it it's going
to steamroll someone uh and there's just that balance right it's it's a balance of okay I'm going to stand on truth i'm
going to but I'm not going to try and wear this on my wrist everywhere I go on my cuff and say "Hey I I represent this
and and uh don't you dare try to you know contradict me." Right right and the
internet amplifies that right there it's so much easier it's so much easier to
temper yourself when you're face to face with someone when you don't know somebody when it's a random person
online and you just have a teeny tiny little picture of them and and that's all their humanity is to you it makes it
much easier to to not to not step down um and take a breath
so speaking of this you know taking this to the next step there's a
you can look at the US and the political situation in the US right now we're becoming very polarized on this and it's
not just a matter of the issues right because there are a lot of new issues that have come up that have been a part
of that polarization I think uh that were not issues you know 15 20 years ago
you know it used to be okay on one side you have are we going to have a larger estate tax or a lower estate tax and is
immigration good is it bad you know stuff like that now we're dealing with things that are really hit home to all of us in terms of uh identity and family
and religion etc right but we are becoming much more polarized and um the
church has done a pretty good job of trying to stay away from that right um
but it's tough it's not easy because eventually everything becomes politicized including our own doctrine
and and so it's how how do we avoid um you know looking
at what we're talking about here with the with the situation with Jared how do you how do you avoid
that confrontation a as as we become as a people more and more uh uh divided I would say
politically and and and how do we how do we stay away from that how do we not delve into
our our new political situations when that that politics is encroaching more
and more onto the issues of the family proclamation on on other issues of doctrine on abortion and other things
how do you do that that's a great question i think the the first step is
always to assume the most
assume the most charitable perspectives from anybody that you're talking to
assume that the person who's frustrated with you is coming from uh the position
of really wanting truth and right and goodness just like what you're trying to
get at they have a different worldview on how to get there but always assuming
the best of people even when you're not quite sure if they deserve it helps a lot it helps create that sense of
humanity in another person um when you don't assume that I'm trying to make
things good and this person is trying to ruin the country i I think that's that's
the first step and I think the second part again is knowing when to disengage
and disengage does not mean that we need to um appease or affirm a perspective
that we don't agree with but it means knowing when this conversation is not
helpful for anybody it's not helpful for where I'm at emotionally it's I'm not my
message is clearly not coming across effectively so I'm just going to take a pause um if it's somebody that you have
a personal relationship with it's very helpful to just reaffirm your love for
them if it's somebody that you in like in a situation like Jared I I think it
would have been helpful for him to just disengage um to try to let it go um and just to
reaffirm his love and respect and admiration for Latter-day Saint women
and know that you don't have a lot of control over when you when you are doing
the best you can to be charitable and good you just don't have a lot of control over what other people think or
how they interpret it in fact you brought this up in New York a little bit about speech called
now you know he he he went he reached out as much as he could to the community saying
you know with tears in his eyes how they feel for everyone they've gone through many times they've taken on the burden
of this uh and yet you know it turns into
something it turns into well the musketss were pointing toward the
There was nothing like that ever discussed he's talking about defending and building Zion and in in in in the
speech and so it's you can't control that and there's no And the more you push that with someone I I think it's it
probably just makes it worse
i've had my my approach typically has been on the podcast is I want awareness
right i want awareness i want to put that out there i you're going to see everything out there there's no way you
can continue to put your head in the sand in the world that we live in now and and and so you know I I it it's
dissipated a little bit but when I first started covering these issues several years ago I got a lot of push back
saying "You shouldn't even bring this up." And and my point was "No you don't understand you're going to hear it from
a lot of different sides you're going to hear it from those that maybe are not from a faithful perspective at all it
needs to come out you need to talk about it you need to be aware of it you need to be aware of it for your kids for your grandkids it's it's got to be discussed
and understood and articulated I think and and now that's dissipated a little
bit it's still there but I think people are becoming more and more aware
that these ideas are going to enter in regardless
um I think that I think that Elder Holland was a really good example how he
responded and of course part of it was he was going through many things health-wise but how he responded to that
sort of backlash there was not there there was not a a grand apology there
was not an attempt to sort of uh paper over what he had said in a sort of a
softer way he he communicated a message that was good and that was needed and
then he stepped back and and didn't address it again he took a pause um I
think a few years later or maybe a year later there was an interview with him where he said that he he really
regretted that people felt the way that they felt i think that he is a very
empathetic person and did not want his words to to cause hurt but um sometimes
um sometimes truth is is really hard for people who aren't ready for it yeah all
right lightning lightning rod question okay um
is feminism entering into the church and do you see it as a threat
that's a good question i I try to be careful about the word feminism because
feminism has as many meanings as there are women um Okay why Why don't you cover that first to give us some context
to your to your answer i mean I I I kind of still think of myself as a feminist i
think of myself as someone who cares about women's issues that impact women
uniquely i care about women's well-being and I know that people who don't um
describe themselves as feminists care about those things too um but but I I like to think that that is that is a
primary focus of of my writing of my work is thinking specifically about women and and their needs and how to
build women up better and so so for me that that is what ideally feminism would
mean but of course um in many many
um feminist groups and uh feminist movements there there tends to be a lot
of um sort of misandry and a lot of um
grievance and spite um that that doesn't really represent kind of my my
perspective how I view men i appreciate men i am married to one i could not um I
could not make it through life without the balance that he provides for me nor could wards function without the support
of the the men who lead in wards so I I really um I I think there's got to be a
kind of feminism that is um that that
cares specifically for women and women's issues without having
manhatred but maybe that's a little bit overly optimistic because it's certainly
not the state of things now so do you see this as a threat at all moving into
the church i mean you you're obviously you're you're creating somewhat of a spectrum here right for for feminism but
is there is there any part of that feminism that you see as a threat i think there are aspects of
um progressive culture that are seeping
into more uh the the thoughts and beliefs of more
Latter-day Saint women and I think that it it is a threat i think that it
weaponizes the natural empathy that women have and it it the whole goal is
to make women feel bad like they are bad people if they uphold the doctrines of
the church that they are hurting others um you see that whether it is with the
LGBT topics whether it is abortion the the way that women that believing loving
good faithful Christlike Latter-day Saint women are kind of getting sucked
into this is by being told that no you know you're not loving enough you need
to be loving and empathetic and understanding with these people who have different life circumstances than you do
yeah absolutely last question I'm going to go with here i I learned something from your article that I didn't know
before you said that you were a converted social justice warrior recruited from from being a social justice warrior tell me just a little
bit about that because I didn't I've had you on the show before i didn't know that yeah sure so I think uh you know I
I was a a regular I was a regular early 20s college kid where I I I studied
English was my was my major so in college so you get a lot of you got get
a lot of progressive politics um you know postmodernism is is the worldview
um and there was a a lot of that that I just accepted and and took as as the
truth Um and I I I don't think I was ever super extreme
i think um getting married and having children relatively young kind of tempers that somewhat um but during
during COVID and and all of the uh all of the outrageous
things that I saw around me where I I felt like I was not the things that that
people were saying the things that the news media were saying I just I didn't feel like it was true or resonated with
me um now now I I think I'm I'm pretty much a a a boring old centrist um but
yes I definitely in the past six years or so have definitely changed my my worldview now you were right in the
middle of college then when you changed that you did have COVID going in there but did you did that how did that change
things for you your experience in college if you're as you're getting deeper into your major oh well this was so this was after I graduated from after
Okay yep yep so I was in I was in grad school at the time which was um and and
my masters is in education so education is another one where you get a lot of um
you know progressivism as as truth uh but uh it it it it wasn't because you
know it was older students it wasn't quite the same as it would have been when I was in my bachelors yeah okay
well well Amanda I really appreciate your your your even keeled approach to all of these things you have some
sensibility that's nice and refreshing so appreciate you coming back on the show and hopefully we can get you back
again yes thanks for having me