LDS Grace And Works feat. Bruce Porter

How do grace and works fit within a Restored Gospel framework? What does it have to do with eternal laws and Exaltation? How does it differ from a Protestant perspective? And why are they both necessary? Where is the church at on the Grace - Works pendulum?

Greg and Bruce Porter discuss the scriptural basis for works and the difference between grace and mercy.

 Raw Transcript

grace and works or Grace versus works is always a big topic within religion especially within Christianity uh I've
done a lot of this in a an approach an Interfaith approach uh bringing in people like Jeff McCulla and others to
talk about grace and works from an Evangelical Protestant or a uh a Catholic standpoint and uh even Jewish
we going going into Jewish uh standpoint as well p uh with uh with Trev hatch previously so uh this is more from a
Latter-Day Saint perspective what do you believe Grace versus works is is there a pendulum swinging from works over to
Grace you know we talk a lot about Teddy Bear Jesus here what does that mean in regards to works and judgment what does
that mean in regards to repentance and becoming where does Grace fit in that
what if we are just myopically looking at Grace does that work God loves us and
that's all that matters um it's not all that matters and and so I brought on Bruce Porter here to
talk about this topic specifically I don't know anyone who knows the scriptures better than Bruce Porter so
we really delve into the nitty-gritty on grace and works now this episode is
brought to you by go and do travel I am the official spokesman for go and do travel and this episode is brought to
you specifically by the Journey of wisdom cruise this is one that Bruce and I will both be on and in this uh cruise
we hit three different continents we go through the Greek Isles and Athens and we look at philosophy uh uh from a a philosophies
of men standpoint versus what Paul and John those that walked in these areas
talked about and what they taught in the Gospel of Jesus Christ we go to Turkey estanbul and Ephesus and we go to Cairo
Egypt where Abraham and Joseph of Egypt and Moses all spoke and taught and
walked and then we contrast that with the philosophies of men I I'm really excited about this Cruz go to quick
media.com quick media.com go to trips and events at the top and scroll down to journey of wisdom and find out more here
we [Music]
go all right welcome to Quick show my name is Greg Matson and I am your host in this episode we bring back Bruce
Porter to talk about one of my favorite topics grace and works Bruce welcome back to the show thank you Greg it's a
pleasure to be here again and one of my favorites topics too gra oh good good good good so I want to talk about this a
little bit uh you know there's several different uh uh points of discussion on this but one of them I want to talk
about is uh starting off with this pendulum that I see moving back and
forth within the church it it's I do think that going into the the you know
look we're a very works-based religion we believe in sacrifice we believe in giving it all we believe in
obedience uh sometimes that's pushed without maybe a little bit of the grace
coming in and understanding the grace um and and and maybe we've had that side of
the pendulum where we've been too heavy over there but currently I think we have switched with this with the pendulum
swung all the way over to Grace and so if you look at the messaging from
influencers from authors and and and and from talks in the church I think we see
what I believe is is is a little bit of a watering down of an understanding of
works and Grace and a
bridge that is being created to work more with Evangelical Protestants and to
actually work within their framework do you see that happening I I do without without question I I see that
people are feeling that because God loves me he's not going to keep me out of his presence and I've heard that
statement before God is so full of love that he will not keep me out of his presence no matter what I do because uh
he loves and that's just not what the scriptures say Christ says if you love me keep my Commandments there's there's
requirements uh that are that are there and the Book of Mormon restores those plain and precious
truths that the Bible in the New Testament are leaving out and we have to look at the Book of Mormon for the
understanding of grace and works uh not the new test the new testament's important without question and Paul's
statements are are right when it comes to grace and works he says we're going to be judged according to our works and
he says we're saved by grace and so there has to be there's a there's a connecting difference there and the way
I see it in the New Testament there's and even within our own scriptures there's two different forms of Grace and
we have to I think need to understand those things what what are the two different
forms well you have there's a Grace of Salvation that Paul talks about and then there's a Grace of
blessing you know God loves us or by the grace of God or the enabling power of Grace is the phrase that everybody uses
from from Elder bedar the enabling power of Grace and we think that that enabling
power of Grace is just God's love and so by Grace we are saved and I think that's where some of the mixup comes but the
but there's that blessing of Grace or the or the the blessing that might come from God and and maybe blessing is even
the wrong word to use but then there's a Grace of Salvation and that Grace of Salvation is
connected to the fall of Adam not not the blessing of God I mean
it's Grace from cherish from the you know from the Greek cheris it's it's connected to a free gift or charity what
we might call sometimes or translate as Charity but but it's a free gift well the free G gift of the of of the gift of
Salvation is different than the free gift of blessings because of God's love and concern for us and and Elder bedar
spoke uh multiple times on the enabling power of Grace and we've we've run with that forgetting that the great there's a
difference between that and the grace of Salvation and in my
opinion Paul's talking when Paul talks about Grace he's always talking to a Jewish Community he's always talking to
the synagogue because there's common ground because Paul is trying to convince the the Jewish community that
Jesus is the Christ from the scriptures which are the old test which are based in performances and
ordinances in in what they saw as works now but but the grace of Salvation
when you actually look at it from the book of Mormon's point of view the grace of Salvation is is connected to the fall
of Adam see we're saved from the fall of Adam no matter what we
do everyone is going to be resurrected and everyone's going to be brought back to the presence of God and the fall of
Adam separated us from our physical existence through death and our
spiritual existence in the presence of God and so there's a physical death and spiritual death and
Christ is restoring that without anything from us because everyone's going to be resurrected and everyone's
going to be brought back to the presence of God now Mercy comes into play because Mercy is different than
grace and mercy is only only works upon those who are exercising their faith unto repentance
but everyone's going to be brought back to the presence of God everyone everyone is going to be resurrected the it
reverses the fall of Adam Christ's atonement and resur Resurrection
reverses the fall of Adam according to the Book of Mormon it reverses that everyone will be saved from the fall of
Adam no matter what they do so you know and I was I'm going to go
back to the New Testament here a little bit you know I I read Paul and I see uh someone who is speaking at least
primarily or or his first stop in every place he goes is to the synagogue and he's he's teaching the Jews he's
preaching to the Jews about uh bringing in the grace of God
talking about the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ that this has happened where the Jews don't believe
that this has happened this act of grace and mercy is already in taking place and
he's pushing back on you know just looking at the law of Moses and so when you see that in that framework of what
the way Paul is talking about it it's clear to see he's trying to change a paradigm among the Jews and and in their
understanding that it's not just a matter of the checklist of the 600 what is it 19 or so Commandments that are
supposed to be followed and and that there is that Jesus Christ has come and he has paid the price and and that now
is we now have this all in place right and but at the same time when I read
them and in fact you can read some of the best Scholars on Paul like like ente Wright I mean he'll go in and he'll show
also look this is yeah we're talking about Grace here but we're talking about
works there works are to me in throughout all the Epistles of of
Paul yeah and I think that's exactly right Paul even in the same chapter he talks about Grace there in Romans talks
about we're going to be judged according to our works and so works and Grace have to be connected somehow in that and that
works I think as James says you know faith without works is dead and what are
the works that James is talking about and that's and I think that's where we come into what amu's trying to teach in
Elma 34 you know you exercise your faith unto
repentance you know that's that's connected right back to James and exercising Faith unto repentance is
exercising your faith in Christ unto the change of character because repentance
is that process of changing character and so as amulic says I think four times
in three verses starting with verse 15 and now the 34 he he says we have to exercise that Faith unto repentance or
Mercy cannot step in and so Grace is being saved from the
fall of Adam there's a salvation but there's a blessing of grace too even in the Book of Mormon when it says that we
are saved by grace after all we can do that after all we can do doesn't mean that we need to do everything we can in
order to be saved by grace that phrase in Hebrew after all you can do means no
matter what you do you're s we're saved by grace no matter what you do and that's what after
all you can do means we're saved by grace no matter what we can do we're saved from the fall of Adam no matter
what we do because everyone's going to be resurrected and everyone's going to be brought back to the presence of God to be judged everyone's going to do that
so we're saved from the fall of Adam and that's what he's trying to convince or teach the Jewish congregations is look
you're not saved by your performances and ordinances from the fall of Adam
you're you're saved from the fall of Adam no matter what you do but you're going to be judged according to your
works and faith without works which is exercising Faith unto
repentance unto the change of character that's what Paul is trying to teach even when he begins with baptism there in
Romans chapter 6 he says is what you're doing with baptism is you're laying the old man down into the grave and that
hasn't covenanted to be obedient and you're bringing forth a new man that's going to be obedient see those there's a difference
between grace and mercy and and the works of
Faith yeah and and and so let's back up just a little bit on this so that we have Clarity on on things like salvation
here I'm going to uh Article of Faith number three here it's we believe that through the atonement of of Christ so
there's our Grace uh all mankind may be
saved right by obedience to the laws and
ordinances of the Gospel so when we're talking saved here in Joseph Smith's
terminology we're talking about exaltation right isn't that correct in
this case I think I think so but but he but he he throws in that word May m a y
they may be saved you know it's still a choice now I I break it down a little bit different I think the atonement is
connected to Mercy I think the resurrection is connected to
Grace okay so Grace in your mind then you're looking at that it's more of what's free exactly because that's what
Grace means it's a free gift and that Grace that resurrection and the Book of
Mormon is specific and says it in these words he says because of the Resurrection all men will rise and be
brought back into the presence of God see that's re that reverses the fall of Adam that totally reverses it now Mercy
is if we exercise Faith unto repentance then as amulic says Mercy Mercy steps in
and satisfies the demands of justice and that's because we've exercised Faith unto repentance and that's where the
atonement comes in so I I look at the atonement directly connected to Mercy and I look at the resurrection directly
connected to Grace well that's interesting too because like in an Evangelical world at least in my
discussion with with many evangelicals it's they're going to use the term free quite a bit yes right they're going to
talk about no this is freely given you know to those that that confess or or or
or born again or or accept Christ this is freely given so there's this kind of
you know we have the idea of that if we're go to your grace and a Salvation uh that I would say is more along the
lines of Amu salvation in uh Elma 3 Elma Elma
11 right you've got a tag team there of Elma and uh AMC and
Elma and their uh first AMC is going to talk about the resurrection and kind of
the Salvation of physical salvation almost and then it passes on over to Alma who talks about the second death
and he's talking about judgment and spirituality and and so you've got this
this the difficulty of words working through different
denominations here and different different paradigms is that we believe in a Grace salvation for
everyone that all will be resurrected and receive a glory
but for those that want to be saved and usually when we talk about being saved
as a latterday Saints we're talking about exaltation right then then you have to
bring the works in yeah you have to bring the mercy in you have to bring the atonement in of
of and and repentance and who are we becoming
through that atonement exactly and we we become through our faith in Christ that's why Amicus keeps saying over and
over again exercise your faith unto repentance that's why James says faith
without works and let's use repentance as part of that word Works faith faith
without repentance is dead if you if you have faith in Christ you're going to change your character you're going to
want to change your character okay uh so it's interesting to
me also because like if I and I'm bringing up the Evangelical discussion here a lot because that's a lot of the framework that we have in in in America
and in the west is is kind of this Evangelical Protestant framework of salvation but uh CS Lewis even right
says the following he's comparing uh grace and works and he Compares it to
the blades of a pair of scissors right and he asks are you saved by grace or
works you know it's like asking do you cut with this blade or that one right it's like it's both so even CS Lewis
right the great Christian writer he he understands this you have to have both and you're saved by both it's not just
an either or and that's another thing is you have kind of on this one end of the argument
this uh uh uh given calls it a Sol
gratia right it's you're just you're just saved by grace right and on the other other end
of the argu argument it's not a solo oada whatever it is it's not a Works
only salvation that doesn't work either and
so the argument is never because you'll Ser hear this argument sometimes is it you know that Grace versus works
but there is no there is no Grace versus works I don't think right I think it's it's grace and works right I mean if
Christ if you think back to if well maybe we can't think back but I was going to say if you think back to the
pre pre-earth life uh to the council in heaven and if you look at the Plan of
Salvation from that point of view if God says okay you're going to go down there
you're going to have this rotten life uh you know you're going to have to do all of this stuff in order to get back
there's going to be these ordinances and your character he says you're going to have a physical body that's going to have desires appetites and passions and
you're going to have a hard time getting back and we we might have asked and I kind of think there may have been
questions there well how are we going to overcome this physical body now he I
kind of look at he might say that well I'm going to give you some commandments so that you can begin to develop by by
your obedience to those Commandments and ordinance you can begin to develop a character the ordinances can provide you
a hope of a future reality and I'm going to give you some profits that are going to give you my words on a regular basis
I'm going to organize a church so that you can be edified and so that you can participate in in a Sacrament in order
to remember me so he's provided for us in this life everything that we need to
use our own agency to come back to him everything you know the church the PRI
you know sacraments Sunday schools he has given us everything we need to use
our agency to come back there's only two things that we can't do and that we
can't resurrect oursel and we can't bring oursel back into the presence of God so he says I'm going to make sure
that you have a if you do what you want to do if you do what you can do by exercising your faith and keeping
the Commandments and participating in the ordinances I.E the sacrament one of the most important says Brigham Young if
we participate in those by using our agency I think he says I'll come in and I'll make sure that you can get back
into my presence so that your agency can take over towards that exaltation and I'm going to make sure you're going to
be resurrected because you can't do those two things and I'm going to give that to you for free the rest of it is
agency based yeah I now what about you know
looking at so let let me bring up the scripture that is often brought up about you know
Sol gratia here in I think it's Ephesians what we have
here yeah right so for by gra this is Ephesians 28
and9 for by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is
the gift of God not of Works lest any man should boast now I based on what
you've been saying here you know I'm not sure which way you're going to interpret that but that might be just the grace
and the free salvation that we all receive regardless to overcome the fall of Adam um but I I would ask also on
this is there is there not again if the Jews have got a an understanding of the
law of Moses and you have to check all the lists to to get everything done and to get salvation right
is there not also a paradigm shift that Paul is trying to achieve here
saying it's not just your works you can't just say it's your Merit that does
it right even for exaltation you can't say that I mean the to me I look at it like a well you you
can't the well is eternally deep no matter how much you fill that well with
your own works right you're you're always as as uh is
it Elma that says it or you're you're all you're you're you're unprofitable servants yeah you can never get above it
right you're never at a surplus no matter how much work you do you're
always in debt because of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ and and so would we not
also look at it that way because I see that you're looking at the two different salvations kind of in a way
but is it not also we are always in debt no matter what we do even for exaltation
you can't say that we earned exaltation because that doesn't sit by
itself well I and I agree with you on that we there there is a connection
there there there is a definite connection because the foundation of all of that is
coming to Believe In Christ and that's what the Jews didn't uh do when Paul would go to those synagogues where where
is your faith the Jewish faith of of those at that particular time that we
seeing in the New Testament here in Ephesians too the Jewish faith was in their
works not in Christ yes his atonement and resurrection that their faith was in
their works that their Works were going to save them you know it's um we see this connection with
Samuel when he's talking to um uh King Saul you know when he goes to uh and
asking Saul you know what what's what's this bleeding in my ears what what what am I hearing these cows and these these
sheep back there what's going on and Samuel says something he says obedience is better than
sacrifice now what's what's that what's he really saying what's he mean when he's saying obedience is better than
sacrifice OB the character is more important than the
ordinance it's what he's saying the character of obedience is more important than the ordinances that you're
participating because the ordinances and the the the obedience to
the law and the ordinances are to develop the character
and Samuel is saying obedience is is is greater than sacrifice is more important than the ordinances you're participating
in and I think Paul is teaching the same thing there in Ephesians well yeah because Paul also
talks about the letter of the law and the spirit of the law wouldn't that fit right into that exactly but but the foundation of everything that Paul's
talking about there Ephesians or anywhere else where he's talking about Grace it's not faith in your works it's
faith in Jesus Christ and the Salvation from the fall of Adam and the Salvation
that you will have from your agency to choose to change your character because it's what it comes down to is no unclean
think and dwell in the presence well how do we become clean well we can't do it without that atonement we can't do it
without faith in Christ and mercy stepping in as AMC says in 34 Alma 34 to
satisfy the demands of just Justice which then gives us the time to develop the character but it still has to be
done there's agency in works and there's Grace in Salvation from the fall of Adam
agency that the atonement is Con the value of the atonement is
conditional the Salvation from the fall of Adam is unconditional one is agency based other
the other is grace-based now again there's two forms of Grace and I think you're right when Paul is trying
to convince these Jewish people who have faith in their Works to save them to put faith in
Christ and his resurrection and his atonement so let's back up to James
again here and and go over the the the phrase you know faith without works is dead so I think you had said previously
let's look at works as repentance and and you know so Faith under repentance the first two
principles of the Gospel uh Faith under repentance um you know the faith would be dead the
faith in Christ the faith in whatever you've put your faith in is dead without repentance without therefore
looking at what are you building your character yeah yeah faith without
changing character is dead faith in Christ means nothing if you don't change your character see that comes comes back
to that agency based and that works I think that he's that James is talking about is that change of character
character we have to develop that character well so and again so this goes
back to really the the the the restoration and and and the what the Book of Mormon brings in and what Joseph
Smith teaches and and that is the idea of exaltation and
salvation is is you know when we look at
works it is all about becoming right it's all about you know we can you know you you'll also hear
well you guys are earning your way to Heaven by going and doing these ordinances in the temple and it's like
well there there's a there's a manifestation of of what we're doing to show just like baptism but really it's
the covenants that you're making to try and build a stronger relationship to have greater faith and and you know it's
still it's still a faith-based relationship based character-based
path which is you know the Covenant path not the ordinance path it's the Covenant
path that we're going down and and so this is what gets lost in the great
apostasy maybe even a little earlier from where they we would call that great apostasy coming around is this loss of
the of of the doctrine of exaltation which is
then a loss in the doctrine of repentance and and building character I
I think I think it is with that loss uh as the scriptures pass through time as those manuscripts pass through time we
we see that the Book of Mormon restoring those precious truths those plain and precious truths are directly connected
to the concept of this of of grace mercy Faith repentance hope and change all of
these things you know Elma chapter 13 verse 16 says that the ordinances it says now
these ordinances are given after this manner whereby the people might look forward forward to a remission of their
sins now that's telling us that those mesic ordinances are so that we can look forward to a remission of their sins
that's that provides a hope of a future reality and hope is always connected to
the almost always connected in the at least in the Book of Mormon is almost always connected to a to the a
resurrection the the hope of a glorious Resurrection The Hope to come forth in that first resurrection you know hope is
always and hope provides a uh is a belief in something that's going to
happen in the future and as it says in twice in Scripture that we that we um
act in Futurity hope gives us a reason to act
in Futurity act for something that's going to take place after our death
something that's going to take place because of our agency and our obedience and that's what I think it means when
those phrases in scripture act in future it means that we we have a reason to
change and and ordinances provide a hope you know would I would I want to change
my character if I didn't have a hope of being washed and pronounced clean if I didn't have a hope of coming forth in
that first resurrection now these are all ordinances if I didn't have a hope of re of that exaltation and receiving a
new name and becoming like God if I didn't have a hope that I could be uh
cleansed by the power of the Holy Ghost see these ordinances provide a hope of a future reality that will lead to
character change and so and the character change is the charity faith in Christ the atonement and Resurrection
the hope of a future reality that provides us the reason to to develop the
the character of Charity yeah which is the character of God exactly yeah so you know this is
this goes right along with what I I talk about with a teddy bear Jesus and what I think we're moving toward is is this
teddy bear Jesus idea and it's it's look there
is because you have grace and works and and if you remove
Works what's really nice about it I mean there really a great a great uh
consequence of moving removing works is you remove judgment yeah right I don't
need to worry about judgment so because those things are completely tied together right I mean Revelation every
man will be judged according to their works it's right in the in the end of the book of Revelation right so it's
like I don't need to worry about that anymore because again as you said earlier you know God loves me and that's
all that matters and I can feel comfort from that I can because I can I can come as I am
and stay as I am and God loves me no matter what you know the scripture the
scriptures say and mentioned a couple of times it says God cannot deny
himself and you know I think it's Moroni back in in Mormon chapter nine Moroni
says we would be with a with a bright recollection of all our guilt we would be we would
be we would be more unease that we would be we would have more pain dwelling with
a just God with a bright recollection of our GI than we would with the Damned souls in hell so it's what he's saying
is that he heaven is heaven is where you do belong and and hell is where you don't belong and Hell could be the
Celestial Kingdom if you're not worthy to be there and it's what he's it's what he's making a connection to is its
character-based are we exercising Faith unto repentance in order that the vowels of Mercy can be opened as amch says and
satisfy the demands of Justice are we doing that if we're not then we would be
more miserable to dwell with a just God than with the damn souls in hell and so it's what he's saying his character B
it's character based exaltation is character-based because God cannot deny himself he can't turn
down his glory he can't shut it off for the unclean and one of the Eternal laws that cannot
change is no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God that can't
change just can't change and mercy the teddy bear God cannot Rob
Justice cannot Rob Justice and the reason Mercy or the teddy bear Jesus
cannot Rob Justice is because no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God
which means we have to have this and Joseph Smith said the statement he made the statement he says we cannot dwell with God until we have the character of
God and that's going to take a long long time and that has to be done by agency it's not a it's not an ordinance it's
not a it's not a magic it's it's it's you know there's no magic wand to make you perfect has to be done by agency
character character is required to be in the Celestial Kingdom the same character that God has but so exaltation is
character-based and character is agency based and that comes back to the works
you know we have to Christ said there's all of these Commandments all of The Commandments that we have are to develop
a character that loves God and loves their fellow man that's why upon these two Commandments loving God and loving
our fellow man do all other Commandments and everything a prophet teaches falls
upon those two which means all commandments all ordinances everything that a prophet teaches are to develop a
character that loves God and loves your fellow man that's you know that's that's what it boils down Christ is saying
that's what it boils down to a character that loves God and loves your fellow man and it's not submitting our will to God
that's a requirement for exaltation it's our will eventually becoming the same as
God's will that's required for exaltation yeah
so again if we remove Works we're removing judgment and then we can ask ourselves
well do we believe in a just God yeah right right I mean is there a just God
because if if if God is not just then he's a respector of persons
he's sporadic he does not align with truth right it it's it's God is God
ceases to be God than if we remove works from this from the scenario
yeah I mean it's it's that that idea of of going to to
judgment which is doesn't need to be what we think it is right it is it is a matter of let's process your choices
let's process your repentance let's take a look at your heart and your character and see where you're at right now right
and and and maybe you're not ready at at this point but uh it's it's it judgment
has to exist or God can't be God as I see it well there's no there's no reason
for different differing kingdoms there's no reason for Celestial ter terrestrial or
testal if there isn't if there isn't some type of judgment section 88 of the doctrine Covenant says those with a
celestial spirit will receive a Celestial body even a fullness fullness even the same and those of a terrestrial
Spirit that's character it's talking about about of a terrestrial character we'll receive a terrestrial body and a
terrestrial Glory even of fullness and on down the testial you know we're going
to receive exactly what we want want to receive but it's going to be because of our agency follow of Adam is going to be
taken care of but whether we stay in the presence of God when we're brought back to the presence of God will'll depend on
whether we have exercise Faith unto repentance to open the bows of Mercy to
satisfy the demands of justice as amulet so I uh I had a uh this is this is part
of this teddy bear Jesus idea that uh I see occurring more and more within
the members of the church I see this online I see this uh in in Sunday school
I you know and I I I I think it's important to clarify
something a couple of things here one is
as I see it when you diminish works and
judgment you diminish mercy and Grace right because I if I am
saying I can do whatever I want I God loves me and that's all that
matters right and and I diminish the idea of judgment I have just taken
away the pain and payment and love of God you know
ironically through his condescension and what he did in coming to Earth and in
the garden and and and on the cross and through his resurrection I I've just diminished the value of that you know NE
Nephi taught that excuse me taught that same thing when he's warning us about
the apostasy within the church in the last days and he talks about there in I think it's in second eepi 28 or
something like that he says that um people will start saying all is well
in Zion yay Zion Prosper all is well and then he said then he start then he and
even before that he talks about um the attitude the mental attitude of people
and I believe it's within the church because in the next chapter he starts talking about those outside of the faith
outside of the church other churches he starts talking about in the next chapter but he says that many will saywell
there's God will beat us with a few Stripes but in the end we'll be saved
and see that's coming back God loves us so much that you know we'll suffer a little bit but in the end he's going to save us everything's going to be all
right all is well in Z we don't need to worry about that thing and that's coming back and and to that teddy bear Jesus
but Nephi says that's a sure sign of apostate
thinking yeah and I think that that's right and then I also go back to and my uh my wife was in a um a Class
A while back and and and it was focused on the love of God right and and they
were talking about the love of God there were a lot of other things that they were supposed to be covering if you looked at the manual but they just
stopped there at the love of God and and and so the whole the whole discussion
was about how much God loves us right and I think okay well this is one
of those things where it's like in a vacuum great this is an
important principle this is really important but if you don't have context with
this then then I I I see it as kind of like this is like the spiritual me
generation what else can I get from God yeah what am I receiving from God
God right it's like it's like prayer it's like what am I asking and am I getting it instead
of Lord what do you want me to do yeah what would you like me to do how what
what do I need to do for you right and so it's it's it just the same thing it just moves toward this
idea of I'm just receiving and I think about the relationship of because it's all about
relationship and I I think about the the the the metaphor of of Christ as the
bridegroom and the church as the bride and and so you've got a marriage there well how does a marriage work I
mean I I would it'd be great if I could just say well you know hun what are you doing for me
today right this is great you know what else are you g to do for me today but that's nothing that is there's
no richness to this there there's no growth there's no
relationship and so you can't just say well God loves me so much you I think you have to say well
the other side of the coin the other part of the relationship is how much do you love God
yeah and and what what are you doing there yeah as Christ said if you love me
keep my Commandments I mean that's that that's that's where it is that's what that's how we show our love of God and
then then we have to have the character that loves our fellow man is is directly connected to those uh to that concept
God loves us so much that he will let us he loves us so
much that he will let us choose whether to develop the character to be in his presence or
not in in mosiah I think it's right around chapter 26 or something he says
there will be those that know I am their redeemer and will refuse to be redeemed
not that he's saying that he's casting out but they will refuse to be redeemed even though they know I am their
redeemer and God loves us so much he's made sure the Fall's going to be taken
care of but he loves us so much he's going to let us choose whether or not we develop the character that loves God to
be in his presence or choose not to be in his presence yeah and he loved us so much
that he gave his only begotten son yeah to make sure to make sure that that
grace and mercy will exist yeah you know it's a rest there's reciprocity
there there it's a relationship yeah I think that's so much part of what we need to learn you know it's even with
the atoning sacrifice it's not just a crude transaction right of of of
payment it it is that but it's it's how do you tell me what you think
of this this is my thought on this I with the this is a little bit of a tangent here
but in my mind as I've studied the scriptures I going back to this idea of
relationship with Christ I don't think that there is any other
way for the Plan of Salvation to be carried out
not than than having the atoning sacrifice and and I'm getting this a minut I'm not just talking about a
spiritual economy here of of transactions but I I don't think that
there's any other way for us to pull put on the character of
God than to have the faith in an atonement cor of God I I don't I think
that that is the Crux of the plan it's not like well Adam fell so let me you
know let's fix this it it's like no no the is there must be an atonement I think and and and
because that is the only way for our hearts and our minds and to to
turn and build that relationship and that faith that is the founding
principle of growth and and and I I would suggest
character yeah and I think you're right without the atonement without Christ and
the atonement and that Resurrection we there we have no gospel we have no reason to believe we have no hope in the
future without an atonement and again Paul is trying to convince the Jewish
people that look you're putting your faith in your Works to save you and
Paul's trying to say no it's not by your works that you're going to be saved it's because coming back to this concept of
the atonement and the resurrection Christ Christ is going to save you of the
357 times that faith has brought up in scripture
354 of those times it's connected to Christ his atonement and
Resurrection only three times does it come across Fai the word faith come across as a belief but every other time
the 354 times it's connected to Christ so faith can only be faith if it's in
something that cannot fail and that which cannot fail is an infinite and an eternal
atonement so it has to be in Christ it has to be yeah I think I think that that I
think the relationship part there is is you know is is again it goes along the
lines of covenants also and and what we do it's just like how you know you have a marriage you're taking on vows it's
it's it's a matter of a relationship and if you cannot build that
relationship then you cannot build the character and and and and so by putting
everything everything that trust in in
Christ then then you're able to you know you're you're able to change
your character you're able to repent of course and you're able to have the works and you're able to grow toward an
exaltation and take on the character of God and I don't think there's any other way to do it if you go to talk to an
Evangelical it's like well it's Christ had to come down and do this because of Adam Adam and Eve blew it and and so
here's here's kind of plan B and and we'll I will come down and and and I
will save you right but I don't I don't think it just does it seems to me that that is
the plan is the atonement yeah it's not the solution I I think it's the plan
yeah it has to be it has to be I mean it's you know you you we have to come
under Christ we have to believe in Christ we have to have that faith in Christ in order to exercise that Faith
unto the change of character that the character we we don't talk enough about
I in my opinion we talk about repentance often in in in our church meetings but
we don't talk about repentance being the process of changing character you know this this God this
this feeling that God loves me is knowing about some something we know
that God is love and and every that's what everybody teaches but but knowing
god is different than knowing of God and knowing god requires that
relationship that you're talking about I don't need to have a relationship to know of God and that he loves everybody
I don't have to have a relationship to know that but I have to have a relationship to actually know God and
know what I have to do that that last sermon of Christ before his crucifixion that's in John chapter 1- 17
it's all on the atonement that that whole chapter from the upper room to the arrest in Gethsemane that whole chapter
is all on the atonement talking to the uh to the apostles but the interesting
part is that he goes through our our contribution to that atonement eat and drink this in
remembrance of me trying to establish a relationship uh from the upper room and
as he as they're walking to the Garden of Gethsemane um um if you um uh if you
love me keep my Commandments but the one in there in John 13 uh that's important uh love one another if you are my
disciples if you really know me love one another as I have loved you so he's
changed it from love your neighbor but to love him and to love others as he has loved us and then it ends there in
chapter 17 with that intercessor prayer of making us equal and receiving the same Glory that he has to pass through
that Veil and enter into the same place where he's at see all of that requires relationship and when you look at
Matthew 2025 of those of the parable of the 10 virgins and the and the sheep and the
goats and the faithful and Unfaithful servants those who did not know
him he says I never knew you why did he they knew of him sure but he says I
never knew you I I didn't know you because you never took the time or
provided the works and the obedience to know me yeah yeah even going back to
Jeremiah Jeremiah talks about that as well it's it's uh it's about relationship Bruce thanks so much for
your time I love the subject I hope that this brings on a lot of discussion I think it will uh and and we need to talk
about it more I I just I'm that pendulum is swinging to teddy bear
Jesus and it's not slowing down right now so I I I I I I hope that we can
understand how Works fit into this we're not earning things or you can never have
a surplus and you're always an unprofitable servant but but works is tied to judgment and judgment
is tied to God and Truth yeah and and exaltation and and if we're going to
water down Works we're going to water down exaltation and and that's you know like
the prime doctrine of of the restoration yeah it's
making those connections that's that's the restoration was to bring back those those plain and precious truths
that we're missing from the scriptures yeah Bruce thanks so much really appreciate your time thank you Greg
appreciate it