Jordan Peterson, Jonathan Pageau- Their Conversation on Christianity and Secularism

Jordan Peterson is Stuck on Faith
My thoughts on their conversation and Jordan Peterson's position between Secularism and Christianity. Peterson wants to believe, but there are obstacles. Pageau offers good advice, but it's not enough. Peterson needs to learn what faith really is. Peterson adopts Carl Jung's mythological approach of truths in the story of Christ but has difficulty bringing them together with the actual event of Christ's sacrifice.


 Raw Transcript


i don't understand why i should believe
and i don't i tend not to believe things
without a why
there's always a why and yeah and i
there's there's a hurdle there that i
that that
well that i waver on constantly recently
jordan peterson and jonathan pageau had
a conversation on christianity which
intrigued me now if you don't know who
jordan peterson is
he is a professor of psychology at the
university of toronto
uh previously at harvard university he's
a best-selling author
he's got two books on the new york times
bestsellers list
just in the last three years a very big
uh youtube personality as well
jonathan pageau not quite as well known
uh i followed him for a few years as
he talks a lot about symbolism he is an
orthodox christian and and loves the
symbolism in
his faith so these two get together
every so often and
talk about this symbolism and about
these truths
and patterns within christianity
jordan peterson after his
physical demise here in the last couple
of years and it looks like he's
he's doing much better seems to be
right now in his spiritual life
somewhere between christianity
and secularism he kind of has a toe
in each each pool if you will and so you
can see in this interview
as as jordan peterson kind of uh
looks for reasoning right as he says
he's looking for the why
of being a part of christianity
now these are both men that i really
respect and so it was a lot of fun for
me to watch this
interview and what i've done here is
i've broken down a few clips
and i'm going to offer a little bit of
commentary on this and cover a little
bit about my
interpreters and principles on scripture
they kind of intertwines with what both
jordan peterson and jonathan pedro have
to say here
now starting off here in this interview
we get kind of a
basis for the rest of the interview
and that is jordan peterson taking as he
being a professor of psychology
a psychological view of
of of christ and i love those points of
i i don't i think there's obviously a
lot more to that
but he brings a lot to the table when he
takes a psychological perspective
on the story of jesus christ
so for him he looks at this in a very
jungian perspective
right uh carl young and that is he's
looking at this as
a myth now that's not necessarily bad
right when we talk about myth we don't
mean falsehood as if we were talking
just myths of the greeks for example the
greek gods
or the egyptian gods what we're talking
about when we're talking about myth here
is we're talking about a story a story
can be true
it can have truths in it but it does
give him a little bit of separation
when he talks in a mythological sense of
the story of christ
he doesn't have to accept a hundred
percent that
christ is god but this basis that he
offers here
of christ being the ideal man
is very important in the way he's
approaching this
he's putting it up at the very top of
the values hierarchy and he accepts this
we'll see that as we go through the
interview i understand and appreciate
the symbolic significance of the ideal
human being
and that finds its embodiment and i took
these ideas in large part from
jung and eric neumann that that
christ is a represent christ is at least
a representation of
the ideal man whatever that is and and
we all interestingly enough we all seem
to have an ideal
now from here peterson starts to talk
his way through this right you can tell
i think there's some sincerity here
on trying to bring this secular mind
in with this uh uh this spiritual mind
he's he's dealing with the higher and
the lower laws here but he's so
steeped in the lower law of of
science right we love science that
doesn't mean it's bad
it means it's great right but he's so
steeped in this
secular point of view that he has to
reason his way through that
that that's that's okay he has to reason
his way through the idea of accepting
and a big part of what he's doing here
is he's trying to show something
that is outside of yourself
right that would be the idea of the
spirit something that
you know it's just like god right god is
outside of ourselves it's outside of
what we have
in a physical realm so this is a big
part of what he's going to be going over
he's trying to bring together
the the secular world and the spiritual
world in his mind it's like the two
sides of the brain
and he's trying to bring together the uh
the material with the spiritual
in his mind a lot of that is a physical
coming out of myth of story
and the truths that are found in those
to him our conscience is an evidence
of something outside of ourselves like
the holy ghost like the holy spirit like
the light of christ and that's where
it's very interesting to consider the
role of conscience
because your conscience will call you
out on your behavior and so it seems to
function as something that's somewhat
or at least is something that you can't
fully voluntarily control because if you
could voluntarily control it
then you just tell the pesky little
bastard to go away
or to pat you on the back continually
to some degree the conscience can be
viewed as the voice of
reciprocal society within and that's a
perfectly reasonable biological
but but the thing is is the deeper you
go into biology the more it shades into
something that appears to be religious
because you start
analyzing the fundamental structure of
the psyche itself
and and it becomes something
well it becomes something with a pow
with a with a with with a power that
transcends your ability to resist it
i love how peterson goes into the idea
the further we go down into psychology
psyche or really as far as i'm concerned
after you pull back the first couple of
layers in science
and keep going you get further and
into meaning you get further and further
why you get further and further toward
god science does a great job of
how it does a horrible job of explaining
why a much more important
question but peterson seems to feel
that as you peel those layers of the
onion back further and further and keep
you don't get away from god you actually
get closer and closer to
something religious something divine
said well that that doesn't
differentiate christ much from a whole
sequence of dying and resurrecting
mythological gods and of course people
have made that
claim in comparative religion joseph
campbell did that
and jung to a lesser degree i would say
but campbell did that
but the difference and c.s lewis pointed
this out as well the difference between
those mythological gods and christ was
there's a there's a representation of
there's a historical representation of
his of of his existence as well
now you can debate whether or not that's
so here we have the beginning of of
peterson's idea of bringing this
physical manifestation
of a myth together right you can have
the myths of
zeus and of osiris in egypt
or any other of the gods that never
or maybe they're built off of some king
or pharaoh
but the actual myth
actually occurring right
is something that is very unique within
christianity the myth the story
is not only the highest level of
love and ideal that you can get
of any myth but it seems to have
a need to have a physical manifestation
because without that true reality of
of having actually happened to a
person to a being then that ideal
it's not really real it's just an idea
and this is what peterson grapples with
throughout this interview
you can debate about whether or not he
actually lived and whether there's
credible objective evidence for that but
it doesn't matter in some sense because
this well it does but
there's a sense in which it doesn't
matter because there's still a
historical story and so what you have in
the figure of christ is
an actual person who actually lived plus
a myth and in some sense christ is the
union of those two things
the problem is is i probably believe
that but i don't know
i don't i'm amazed at my own belief and
i don't understand it
like because i've seen
sometimes the objective
world and the narrative world
you know that's union synchronicity
and i've seen that many times in my own
and so in some sense i believe it's
undeniable you know
we have a narrative sense of the world
for me that's been the world of morality
that's the world that tells us how to
it's real like we treat it like it's
real it's not the objective world
but the narrative and the objective
world touch and the ultimate example of
that in principle is supposed to be
but i don't know what to and that seems
to me oddly plausible
yeah but i still don't know what to make
of it it's too
it partly because it's too terrifying a
reality to
fully believe i don't even know what
would happen to you if you fully
believed it
okay well this is a natural reaction
for someone who starts to bring those
that objective world and that
mythological world
right the the objective world and the
narrative world i love how he
pulls these out because he's using very
psychological terms
the narrative world right myth
the mythological world not meaning the
fake world it means the story the
stories are very important think about
how jesus taught
he taught with stories were those
individuals real
was there really one sheep that was lost
in 99 that were found
what is he teaching he's teaching in
narratives he's teaching in
myths he's teaching in stories
and this is something in in uh you know
not i wouldn't say
most academics have this
understanding of of because you're so
steeped in the in the scientific world
that the mythological world
the narrative world the spiritual world
right is reduced to to a much lower
i think that jordan peterson sees that
and understands that world he's just
trying to
to bring the two together he's trying to
see how they
are connected for me this is all about
the higher and the lower laws
right his narrative world his myth the
mythological world
his world of story is a world of
symbolism it's a world of spirituality
and he's trying to reconcile that
with the objective world with the
scientific world
the physical world that's genesis 1 1
right from the beginning right god
created the heavens
and the earth it's the things from
heaven and the things of earth
it's the spiritual things and the
temporal things that's all he's doing
trying to bring these two things
together that's the objective
of existence by the way right that's
covenant means comes from kovaneri it
means to come together
what coming together the spiritual
and the objective things the
things of heaven and the things of earth
that's the higher and the lower laws
you often say and i understand it when
you say something like
you know i act as if god exists or you
know i'm afraid to say that god exists
uh and i think it's because you you
or you tend to think that the moral
like of that is so strong that you would
we would crumble under it that you would
just be crushed under it
and and i think that and i think that
i think that i i understand that
but the first thing that to act as if
god exists
let's say it this way to act as as if
god exists the first thing that it asks
of you is not
a moral action the first thing that it
asks of you is attention
so i really like what jonathan pageau is
saying here about attention that the
first thing it requires you is not
it's actually attention another way of
thinking about this
is remembering and we see this all
throughout for example the bible the
idea of remembering
it's the first thing it requires is
attention you have to have
a little bit of knowledge before you can
have faith
a lot of people think it's the other way
around faith is not a lack of knowledge
that's not what it is it's not a belief
without a base of knowledge that's
you have to have a knowledge of god
first before you can have faith in him
you have to have a knowledge of his
goodness of his perfection
faith is trust it is fideri that's what
it comes from it means
trust you can't have trust in something
you can't
fake trust you can't have trust in
that you don't have a knowledge of and
then eventually you gain experience with
that relationship
and then your faith grows based on
knowledge and experience
so i really like what he says there but
he discussed the idea of
the yoke of christ being light and that
there is joy in it
and um and there's a paradox there
obviously because
it's it's also a take up your cross and
follow me sort of thing
but um the fact that i've been living in
constant pain
makes the idea of joy seem
um cruel i would say
and so and i have no idea how to
reconcile myself to that
all right before i go into my comments
on what peterson has to say here about
i want to go just a little bit further
here down this rabbit hole
that isn't really as deep i don't think
as they're making it out to be but let's
listen to jonathan pajot on this first
and then i'll come back and talk about
it's very difficult to answer that i
think that the answer
like the answer has been the cross like
that's been the answer it's an ease
maybe it may be easy for me to
just say it that way uh but that's
always been the
answer of of christianity which is that
that god went to to the cross and that
god went
down into death and and plunged down
into death and there
that there are mysteries hidden and
there maybe they're very well hidden but
there are mysteries hidden in that than
that depth
okay there are mysteries hidden in that
as as pejo says but
a lot of those mysteries are things that
we actually go through ourselves
we all go through suffering we all go
through a level of death to the ancients
death was not just a mortal death right
it was it was sickness
it was there's a spiritual death right
mortal death is a separation of
body and spirit spiritual death is a
separation of
man and god right it's the separation
it's pulling away from
and and christ overcomes both of those
it's not just a physical death
that he overcomes when lucifer
is in the garden of eden and is talking
to eve
and says you you know you're not gonna
die don't worry about it
he's lying right and not just in the
sense that you're going to die
physically he's lying saying you're not
going to die
spiritually that's important to see
and and it's christ that comes in and
through the garden of gethsemane
and on the cross and then his
resurrection uh
going down into hades here as as pedro
was talking about
he overcomes both of those deaths that's
i think that's really important to
understand again
higher and lower lie you have to have
two you have to have
the physical objective world and you
have to have the spiritual world
but the most important point here i
think is that
there has to be suffering there has to
because if there's not suffering then we
don't know joy
right you you have to have an opposition
in those things
and beyond that we all participate
in becoming something greater as
peterson keeps talking about christ as
the ideal man
well how do we become like him
and the answer is is that we learn to
in a degree the way he suffered
that's really his example his example is
obviously important from his
life and from his teachings but the
greatest example
is the love he offered in taking on all
of the sins of the world and the pain
and the suffering that he went through
you know what to what degree are we
willing to do the same for others for
those outside of ourselves
and think about how much love you would
need if no one suffered
for any reason if there was no spiritual
death if there was no physical death
right if there's no opposition in all
things which
also means context and hierarchy you
have to have context in hierarchy
and you may be up higher on the
hierarchy of wealth
which means what do you need to do with
that you need to reach down
to those below you and pull them up out
of poverty
or they might be spiritually in poverty
and you might be spiritually wealthy and
you're higher up in the hierarchy on
that end you need to pull those
up while you're reaching up also to
those that are more
spiritual than yourself it's
it's it's a as i say often it's it's
it's like it's relational covenant
it's charity and if we don't have
suffering and degrees of suffering and
degrees of everything else
wealth and everything else disparity
if we don't have disparity we have no
objective to move against that disparity
we have no objective to offer love and
effort remember when i say love i'm not
talking about a feeling
i'm talking about effort i'm talking
about action i'm talking about
suffering for someone else bearing their
as christ bore our burdens
one of the things that that you talk
about like looking up to the star and
looking up to the highest thing you can
look at and then aiming
towards that you know once again one of
the things that that does for
is that the first thing you do is
actually where
it's a form it's a tension that people
don't like the word worship it's a form
of reverence a
form of veneration you submit yourself
to that aim
so it's not just that you see the aim
and that you aim for it
you actually have to submit yourself to
that which is
to what you're aiming and so that
sacrifice to it
exactly and you have to sacrifice to it
so that's why
let's say the religious version of this
has to move towards the
highest possible aim and also one that
we can do together
again love what jonathan goes through
here again about this hierarchy
what i talk about often is a fluid
right it is it is that his it goes right
along the lines of what he's saying here
which is you have to be able to submit
to it
you have to submit in order to get into
the fluid hierarchy it's similar to
who can't speak well right there's
always a weakness with these prophets
and it's always brought out
uh in the scriptures because it's
their weakness and it's not that they're
weak individuals
it's that they're not god and it's not
about them
right they're always spokespeople for
god they're it's not
moses church right it's not moses's
religion he doesn't he's not the founder
of all that
he is simply a spokesperson and someone
who works in the fluid hierarchy
in order to enter into the fluid
you have to be able to submit and if you
look above you and you see the ideal
in christ above you then you've got to
learn okay i'm going to submit myself in
here i don't have to be him now
i don't need all that glory what i need
to do is
learn and and make myself meek and and
humble myself so that i can enter into
this fluid hierarchy
what do i mean by fluid i mean that you
can move up and down in it
depending on your agency your choices
what you do
and that's very important if you have a
hierarchy spiritual hierarchy then
you're always consigned
to the same position that doesn't work
it also means that everybody can be
so as you lift others up you are lifted
right as you help someone else you
become a better person
which raises you up in a spiritual
hierarchy it's not about
it's not about you know power as we
think about power
it's about growth it's about progressing
it's about
becoming all right now what jordan
peterson goes over here i think is very
important to understand as part of that
ability to move through that fluid
of part of that ability to grow and
you must have community listen to what
he says
whatever our fundamental moral load is
immense though it is um crushing
though it is even um
requires the participation of others so
even if you
were the perfect you you would need
people to to be along with you it's a
collective enterprise even though it's
an individualistic
even though it requires the perfection
it requires
as much perfection as is possible at the
individual level
that's not enough there has to be that
communal element as well you need help
we all need help to aim as high the
highest aim requires communal endeavor
okay i love this because he goes over
two different things here
first of all he's talking about the need
for both
individuality and community you can't
give up individuality
and go straight up to community this is
what the dystopian ideologies political
ideologies try to do
right there are to me four phases of
what we might call
the four phases of the priesthood right
the there are four phases in priesthood
that is with that which administers will
call it zion
right and they are at the very
individual level it's choice first it's
agency you can't give that up that's
that always
is there and it always everything always
has to start there
and then secondly it is speech and
we can think a lot about the first
amendment in that case
right those are lower law things when i
think of the lord law i'm talking about
as individuals not god right
so we have choice and speech or or
this is all scriptural and then if we go
up to the higher law
right the third phase of the priesthood
would be family
we're going outside of ourselves
individually into something that
ties us together to something more
important than just us
then that's obviously key to growing
and to becoming more like jesus christ
you've got to move toward family so we
start to get into what peterson
describes as community
and then the fourth phase of the
priesthood would be what i would call
something like zion
right and and so think about those four
choice and agency or freedom of choice
we might call it
uh speech and behavior
family and then community or zion
think about dystopian ideologies
political ideologies let's go to
marxism and communism what it tried to
what does it do it says no we're going
straight to the top of those four and
we're going to drop the first three
we're going to get rid of your own
agency where necessary
we're going to get rid of your speech
where necessary we're going to get rid
of family ties being as important
as you think they are and we're going to
bring you up to the level of
zion straight there knocking out the
other three
making them much less important and
leaving them behind really
right the state is more important than
your family
in that case so those four phases are
all crucial they're all very scriptural
all very important
that's where it starts the lower law
with us individually
and moving to the higher law which is
moving outside of ourselves
moving outside of the individual you've
got to keep both though you can't ever
give one up you can't say i'm moving
straight to community in zion and
leave behind the individual you have to
hold on to both
there seems to be something too
convenient about c.s lewis's insistence
that that also had to manifest itself
concretely in reality at one point in
and i'm not like i
i don't understand why i should believe
and i don't i tend not to believe things
without a why
so at this point in the conversation
comes back to his why right
that that he doesn't understand why
and where these two worlds are are going
to come together
he's got to have the why in order to
let's see how this conversation unveils
there's always a why and yeah and i
there's there's a hurdle there that i
that that
well that i waver on constantly you're
when you think these things through
at least my experience has been if you
think them through sufficiently you end
up with
the choice between impossible
alternatives and so yeah
one of the ways to see it maybe is is it
has to do
with the recognizing of the goodness of
the world or the goodness of creation
that the world is capable
of manifesting these patterns
so pezzo's answer is having a belief in
the goodness of the world
that there is goodness and of course if
you follow the conversation so far and
you see
peterson's idea of christ being the
then of course why would you not reach
for that right because anything else is
as he said earlier
is lesser than that so if there's
goodness in the world and christ
embodies the
the greatest good there is the highest
good that there is
then why would you not believe in that
but i i don't think there's enough meat
there i really don't i don't think
there's enough there to say
this is why you believe in christianity
it's a good reason
but it's it's not a great reason to me
let's keep going not only does have to
come down into the person of christ
who's incarnated but that person
has to go down down into death to the
very bottom of the world
you know to the belly of the leviathan
and then
come back up and so the whole world is
declared as once again declared as
being capable of participating in this
good the
the this this story of of a man who
embodied them
absolutely and is bringing us in him
to also embody them in a way that will
transform us
you know like the the ultimate goal of
of orthodox
vision of christianity is is theosis
it's to become
god to become god through through
transformation and participation in god
okay i happen to believe what jonathan
pedro is saying here
in that we are the reason for our
existence the why behind
us is to become like god
right i agree with him i i think that
look you've got an ideal in christ
so what you're trying to do is become
like him
why would you shoot for something less
what happens when you get two stages
below that you stop
i don't want any more progress no you
keep going
you want to sit at his right hand you
want to
inherit all that he has and you want
uh eternal progression so to speak
so i i under i so i believe what
jonathan pedro is saying there i think
that's the right idea
that to me is a part of pure
that to me is good reasoning that's good
now here peterson moves on to the idea
of responsibility
as meaning it also seems to me that
you can sell the story that meaning is
to be found in responsibility
when i've tried to sell that story to
myself i seem to buy it and
when i've tried to communicate it with
other people it renders them silent
large crowds of people silent and that's
strange because
i'm not sure why that is it's perhaps
because the connection between
responsibility and meaning had never
been made
for in in that explicitly somehow
i i this is something he's written about
before and spoken about before
in understanding where where meaning
comes from
right what is the meaning of our lives
what is the meaning of the existence of
the universe etc
a lot of it is planted in individual
and and again if we look to the ideal
what responsibility did christ have for
everybody else
well he had all of the responsibility
right that's what
love is it's that attention
to that duty it's actually doing
something it's not just saying oh i care
about this in my heart
it's the action that took place in
gethsemane and on the cross
so to reach that ideal means
to take on responsibility
that creates meaning
and i think that as he goes through
these little points here he's not going
to come up with a full answer on this
in this conversation but but it adds
just another
building block of intellectual power
in in in getting to the point of putting
what is christianity and and and why
it's true
he wants to come to it from a lower law
you can get there that way it's harder
right it's harder to do that
but you can get there eventually but
eventually you're going to have to open
up the floodgates
to the higher law
so now jonathan pageau goes into the
idea of
bearing each other's burden and so
there's there's
a value in being in a community and a
and a hierarchy where you like i go to
right i go to confession i go to my
priest and i confess my sins and
and i give that to him he
actually takes responsibility for
for an aspect of listening to my sins
and and kind of participating in my
salvation and he
and so the weight ends up being
distributed across the community
this to me is a great argument against
those who say we don't need organized
i i you know i i can have a direct
relationship with god which is
extremely important it's the most
important thing but but i don't need any
organized religion
that to me is false i i to me you've got
to have a structure in place that
fulfills both the idea of hierarchy
and fulfills the idea of of well an
and that is going to fulfill the idea of
bearing each other's burdens a structure
helps you do that that's what it's for
it's not that you are submitted just to
a church it's actually that a church
should be submitted to you
and your family in helping support you
becoming so in this sense
the church a church acts as
a way for us to be like christ it
creates a way for us to
share the burdens of others and for us
to have our burdens shared there's some
truth to that there's there's a truth of
in in that idea of sharing burdens
again bringing it all back to the
sacrifice of christ
that's what everything hinges on
him bearing everyone's burdens
and then we get into what i think is the
most important part of this conversation
and that is this idea of of faith
i think that they get toward what they
should be talking about
and as far as an answer to jordan
peterson we're going to get closer to
what i think
answer should be for
because i've been struggling towards it
this whole
it's an act of faith and so let's say
that your faith is
that you decide to make the notion that
reality is good the cornerstone of your
it's something that you that you what
that you believe or is it something that
you courageously assume
and is there a difference between that
and belief and if you courageously
that the world is good that reality is
good then
the touching of the narrative and the
objective in this
manner that's demonstrated by christ
that becomes necessary
is that the idea
this is my favorite part of the
here jordan peterson like he wants an
right this is he's struggling with this
he wants an answer
and jonathan pageau is about to bring
him down i think the right road he
doesn't bring him all the way down the
but he starts him off on the right road
jordan peterson here talks about having
a courageous
assumption that is only a beginning
that's not
faith it's it's a it's a
uh it's a belief it's not a full faith
that's not what
faith is again we have to understand
that faith
is trust how do you have trust
trust is not just an assumption think
about a relationship that you have with
a spouse
with a child may be good maybe bad
think about how the role of trust plays
a role
in those uh or or the idea of trust
plays a role in those relationships it's
it's intangible it's spiritual it's part
of the narrative world part of the
spiritual world
but you can't fake it you can say
something different but you cannot fake
right you have to build it you have to
grow into it
as jordan peterson here says is that
what it is
the the answer to that for me is
no but that's a really good place to
the answer is learning how to build
trust how do you trust in these things
it's like any scientific experiment just
like jordan peterson has done a thousand
times in psychology
you have to test it out and find out
what the results are
that's how it works
trust is built it's not just a
courageous assumption or a belief
it's funny i don't see it as an act of
faith in the way that we think of an act
of faith like this jump of faith or
whatever i
i see it as an act of trust faith as
trust you would say
that's fine that would be a courageous
assumption if it's trust
okay notice how peterson comes back
in his response to to pajeo here and
says okay
faith that is a courageous assumption no
it's not
no it's not he's off on this i think
it's not the same thing what has been
built up
to have that trust what that that
faith comes from the latin word federi
federi is trust or integrity right it's
what holds things together
that's what piste says in in in greek
sometimes you'll see it translated as
belief but
when you see that it's it's it's trust
trust takes time trust takes effort
trusts trust takes experience
you can't just assume i i've heard a
number of
of individuals talk about faith in a way
that is
almost like they're making it more noble
saying that you don't have to have
any kind of experience or or or even
any type of evidence for it that's not
true that's just not true
you're you have that's santa claus
sorry that is santa claus god is real
santa claus is not and and you can't go
forward with your life not not the way
you really need to to find reality
and truth thinking that faith
is nothing more than a belief
right a child believing in santa claus
does not mean santa claus is real
but a faith in god based on the
principles of the gospel
and you trying those out over and over
over again and building a relationship
with him
that's completely different now you've
built something very strong
and very real that cannot be faked
you can just see peterson's struggle
with really understanding i think that
that idea of what faith really is
and that to me is where his shortcoming
is in
trying to battle this you know bringing
these two worlds together here's
something he he said
in his last book 12 rules of life
it says i knew that i could find nothing
in the way of rational knowledge
except a denial of life right that's the
objective world
and in faith i could find nothing except
a denial of
reason no and this was even more
impossible than a denial of life
again he you know bringing these two
worlds together here is is what his
crisis is and
yeah i think to me the better answer i
don't know if it's the answer
but the better answer to this is
understanding what
faith is faith is based on
evidence the evidence of your experience
implementing the principles of the
in building a relationship
and then here they go over the ever
important topic of hierarchy
and and i think this is crucial to
understand for
religion for christianity there is
hierarchy you want
hierarchy you want order you want
the smashing together of a hierarchy
flattening a hierarchy
is not the plan of god
right that is the opposite plan
so if you worship if you worship those
things that you're aiming towards
the lower things if you worship the the
making a safer society
if you worship the making of freer
society if you worship making
a stronger society all of these things
are going to go off the rails because
they they have unintended
consequences that you don't understand
because they're they're a fragment of
that's the danger of ideology it's the
part takes the place of the whole
so the the the the idea is that if you
if you worship god then those other
will will kind of lay themselves out
slowly and you won't be able to force
and they give the example of uh judas
at bethany and the woman with the with
the expensive oil
here's what they say when a woman comes
and wants to anoint and wash christ's
feet with a very expensive perfume
and then judah says what what are you
doing like why are you doing this you
need to why don't we give this to the
right and christ says you know the poor
will always be with you
but the bridegroom christ the messiah is
there for
a short time well i suppose the truth of
the matter is is that
the genuineness of your desire to help
the poor
is precisely proportional to the degree
that you embody christ
so i i i this to me is the idea again of
the higher and the lower laws you can't
get rid of the lower law you can't get
rid of the individual first
that doesn't mean that you focus on the
individual it just means you can't get
rid of it so
in this example i think they're exactly
right it's kind of like when you're on a
and they teach you before you take off
every time
right if you're with a child and
oxygen is lost in the cabin then the
face masks fall the oxygen falls
and what are you going to do with the
child you're going to try and put
the one on them first maybe they're
moving around who knows how long that
you pass out in the meantime right no
what it means is you've got to get your
own house right first or as jordan
peterson says
you know get your own room in order
first before you go beyond that
and and you've got to put on the mask
first now you know
because you're the one that can help you
can help that
your child you can help the person next
to you you can help everybody
if you've got the mask on first you've
got to clean the inner vessel so to
speak first
so i think that's exactly right and a
very important principle to understand
if you've got christ at the top then
everything else
can fall into order even the poor as
important as that
is there are a lot of ideologies out
that talk about helping the poor and
fabulous but if they are above the ideal
then that's a problem right things can
get out of whack if you've got christ at
the very top
then you take care of the poor then you
take care of the things that are right
you do the greatest good and then lastly
peterson goes in and talks about the
idea of goals and hierarchy
here's what he says i did some work on a
committee at one point that was
advising the u.n
in relationship to the establishment of
its millennial goals and there was
hundreds of goals
never not rank ordered and so it was a
tower of babel
because you can't have hundreds of goals
that aren't rank ordered and have any
goals at all
because the goal to have a goal means a
hierarchy something has to be more
important than something else
and there isn't anything more important
than getting your act together
so to speak you know
if we think about this this is
our why or a big part of it anyway
why we exist why are we here in
in mortality where there is opposition
in everything
where there is adversity why would we be
in a place where they're suffering what
is the point of all this
right the point is growth and as you
have different goals and you create a
values hierarchy what are you doing
you are becoming you're learning and
you're growing through experience
you're making decisions that's why
agency is so crucial
and those decisions hopefully are moving
you closer and closer to
getting your values hierarchy in the
right place
putting christ at the very top putting
sacrifice at the top putting
love at the top that requires
adversity that requires the ability to
have choices between
not just good and evil but
good and better right it's context
it's levels it's it's a hierarchical
value structure
that helps us as we get it into the
right places like putting together a
rubik's cube
right that that we can become
who i believe we are supposed to come
now in the end on this conversation and
i've followed both of these men quite a
i think the thing that is lacking the
most here
is the idea of what faith is if peterson
can just
grab on a little bit more to what faith
and how to build it i see that he can
beyond this this barrier
that stands between the objective world
and the narrative world the the physical
world and the spiritual world
the scientific world and the mythical
you don't have to subject yourself to an
unintellectual argument
that says just believe that is silly
right i don't know what other word to
you have to build it on principle you
build it on
reason and then you grow you grow it
applying principles and building a
if that wasn't the case then why do you
have all of the scripture
what is the point of being told over and
over again
how to behave and how to get the holy
ghost the holy spirit
what is the point of being told come
follow me
right and to actually walk in his
footsteps and become like him and
bear others burdens as well what is the
point of sacrifice what is the point of
you know what are you doing you're
giving something up for a greater good
you're you're
acting out a values hierarchy
and that is something that is changing
into something better i really respect
both of these men and
and i i think that there's a lot of
sincerity here i think that's important
it's not just intellectual firepower it
it is there's sincerity and there's i
think a true desire
to find truth and that's probably more
important than anything else
uh if you don't follow them if you
haven't followed them before
then i will put their uh their
information in the description
below thanks and i'll talk to you next
well i'm going to have to think about
all this a lot


Jordan Peterson Jonathan Pageau


The Jordan Peterson Podcast with Jonathan Pageau-

"Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phone records or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research,k is not an infringement of copyright."

This video and our Youtube channel, in general, may contain certain copyrighted works that were not specifically authorized to be used by the copyrighted holder(s), but which we believe in good faith are protected by federal law and the fair use doctrine for one or more of the reasons noted above.


50% Complete

Two Step

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua.