Is Tim Ballard Losing It? Right Hand Man Is Now Talking

Crazy accounts of narcissism, lying, and leveraging relationships for money and fame. Many saw Tim Ballard as a hero saving kids from trafficking. Now, some close to him are saying there's a problem. Ryan Fisher was Tim's right-hand man for seven years. He says he is talking now because he does not want others, especially members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, to be "conned" as he was.

 Raw Transcript

All right. So, it's time, I think, now to come out and talk about Tim Ballard.
Uh, you know, everybody knows the story about him. He came out with a Sound of Freedom movie, uh, in 20 summer of 2023.
I interviewed him at that time about that movie. And then, uh, a couple months later, everything hit the fan, so
to speak. Vice article came out. Uh, he was excommunicated. And uh then there's been a journey that
he's been going through the last couple of years that has not ended up it appears in a very good place where he is
now lashing out at the church and uh making horrendous implications on the
prophets and the leaders of the church being involved with SRRA, right? satanic ritual,
uh, abuse, just just ridiculous big lie type things because he's upset
that, uh, that that, you know, for whatever reason, he's been excommunicated and he's not back in in
the church. And it's very unfortunate, right? This guy has done some real good
things in his life and seems to have decided that he's going to go down a path of narcissism instead of a broken
heart and a contrite spirit and trying to uh change his life for the better.
And uh and now the reason I'm coming out now is because now there are people that
are actually listening to him, which is scary. there are people that are actually listening to him and the
garbage that he's spewing about the church and his rants
uh and and and falling from the church, right? They're losing their testimonies as he
supports others that are talking about this SRA and and you know that uh hey
the church has fallen and etc. And it's a little bit concerning now at this point. So, and I'm actually surprised
that more faithful, we haven't really seen many faithful podcasts or or
platforms coming out and saying anything about this. I mean, you see it online and it's talked about online in terms of
social media, but actually covering this is is something else. In fact, you see
mostly maybe even some anti- channels that uh have been covering this. So, I'm
going to do a couple of episodes on this. This one is interviewing Ryan Fiser,
who was Tim's right-hand man for several years. Uh, he's got a lot to say about
Tim that uh, you should hear. And if you've heard about what's going on, well, we'll Ryan's going to be able to
enlighten you a little bit more on the beginnings of Tim before even OR
started. and some very interesting things are brought to light in this interview. Uh
after this interview, I will be doing another episode that is going to be more on
things that I've worked on and researched. I actually interviewed some of the women before I think any other
media platform actually did. I could be wrong on that, but but I think that's right. before Glenn Beck talked to anybody before they had legal
representation. Most of them uh this was back in September of 2023
and had several hours of interviews with them at the time. I did do an episode on this at the time uh but kept things
rather general for specific reasons uh that I I didn't know exactly what needed to
be put out publicly um for these women. and and then we'll
cover a little bit about what what Tim publicly on his posts and other podcasts
has been going has been talking about over the last several months and it's
just a spiral in my mind that I see that he's going down and it's very very un
unfortunate. So anyway, this episode is brought to you by our Substack Alive and
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as a subscriber with that Substack. Here we go with Ryan Fischer.
All right, so now we bring on Ryan Fischer onto the show. Ryan was associated with Tim Ballard early on
here uh for about seven years. Ryan, welcome to the show. Hi, thanks for having me.
So, how were you associated with Tim? How did you know him? G give us give the audience an idea of your your
association with him over I believe around seven years. Sure. Yeah. I met Tim in 2011
when um I was starting a TV program called Nephite Explorer that was on K Jazz from 2012 to 2016. Just explored
Book of Morin geography, interesting scriptural archaeology, things like that. And uh I went to a research
conference in Oram and Tim was presenting some of his research on a
theory he has about the Book of Mormon playing a role in the life of Abraham Lincoln and shaping how he views the the
world and informed him on how to conduct the Civil War. Um I heard his
presentation. I thought it was pretty fascinating research and so I decided to uh put him on my TV show. Um he was an
aspiring author at the time. uh he was just coming out with a book called The American Covenant and I took I read his
book. I thought there's a lot I was really passionate still am really passionate about American history and
our founding fathers and the principles that our country was built on. So, um,
his message that kind of seemed to fill in and connect some of the, um, doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter-day Saints with the miracles of the Revolutionary War and the
inspirational stories surrounding the founding fathers. Um, I that really resonated with me and it's something
that I wanted to promote and so I platformed him on my TV show for six
years, four years when it was on Kazz and and longer after that. um featured
some of his research. We traveled around the country together. Um and then I also
ran an American Covenant tour which we took people who are fans of my show and fans of Tim's books on bus rides through
the providential places where miracles happen in founding of America. And then
I also was there for helping him to start Operation Underground Railroad,
the nonprofit that uh aspired to rescue kids from human trafficking. Mhm.
And so I was part of the beginning of that and I was involved in many film
projects with him and I even got a a special calling or film project from
Elder Ballard um during that time that I associated with him. And uh yeah, it all
spanned to about 2017 when we had a following out and uh I left the career
of Tim Ballard for good, having become aware of who he really is and what his
motivations were, which weren't pure and weren't aligned with the principles that
I that I got behind early on, unfortunately. So earlier on you you you liked him, you
like what he represents, as most people did. Uh he he's out to help in human
trafficking. He's got uh seems to be very supportive of the church and and and founding principles of America, all
these things that ring true with so many Latter-day Saints, right? Uh how what
what was it that started creating a disillusionment for you with with Tim? And when did that start and how did that
play out until you finally left? Yeah. Um it's one of those things where
there's red flags all along the way, but it took a culminative um view of all
these red flags. The very first one with OUR actually was we were assembling the very first jump
team of operators that were going to go into third world countries and pose as
um tourists looking for access to kids and hopefully flush out the bad guys, be
able to rescue the kids. Um that very very first jump team training uh went really badly. Uh, one of the
guys that was um on our team um accidentally got shot through his calf
during our weapons training. We were on the front line like with sidearms and AR-15s and practicing our weapons
training and uh he went down to reach and grab his sidearm and he uh his
finger went into the trigger well and he accidentally shot himself to the calf. Um accident, you know, accidents happen
with guns. Um, we fortunately had a combat medic on on standby there and
they're while they're banding him up, Tim came to me and two other instructors
and asked if uh if he or anybody knew about the holster and we're like what holster? Well, he said the holster that
we gave him didn't match that wasn't for that gun. And uh what he's referring to
is uh holsters are designed where the trigger well is sealed so that when you
reach down to grab your gun, your finger doesn't go into the trigger well and accidentally pull the trigger and shoot
yourself through the calf. Well, he had um given this guy who came without his own weapon uh a wrong incorrect holster
for that gun that didn't fit and that contributed to his uh accident. I mean,
that's exactly what holsters were supposed to prevent from doing. The problem was is Tim immediately pulled me
and the other instructors aside like, well, that holster doesn't match that gun. Um, so we got to keep that under wraps. And he told us to separate the
gun from the holster. He said, "The sheriff's coming. You know, they always investigate any kind kind of shooting. The sheriff is coming with the
paramedics. Um, separate the gun from the holster. Make sure that those aren't together. and if anybody asks um you
know make sure that keep that under wraps. And that put me in a moral conflict right right then and there to
where he was asking me to cover up his responsibility for a horrible accident that that was a life turned out to be a
life-threatening or lifealtering injury for this guy. And um but he convinced us that you know
the mission of raising of trying to rescue kids is more important. keep your keep your eye on the prize on the bigger
picture and um you know if this ended up being a
lawsuit OU hadn't even gotten uh nonprofit status at this point we're
still in the fundraising side of it any sort of bad press or anything that looks bad or makes Tim look like he doesn't know what he's doing um could be bad for
our goal of getting this nonprofit off the ground and so he kept us focused on
that and uh and and so I went along with it. Sadly, I I was like, "Okay, yeah, I
I understand that that this could be really bad for OUR and uh it could lead
to a lawsuit that could really like hamper our efforts to get it off the ground. Saving kids is more important
than taking responsibility and helping this guy who had this horrible accident." He seems to end up using that
reasoning and that values hierarchy, so to speak, an awful lot throughout the following years.
Yeah. Anytime he's done something allegedly criminal or has hurt somebody
or has done something ethically or morally wrong, he always defaults to,
well, we're trying to save kids. It's a messy process. There's no white handbook or there's no manual for how to save
kids, so we just got to go with it. you know, the bigger goal is to save kids.
And that's what he's told the women that um had major reservations to put it
mildly with his sexual advances on them during operations. He would immediately
like on one case one woman he uh had on a massage table and some had asked the
massage therapist to do some sexual things to her and um she ended up
jumping up and was in the bathroom crying and he kind came to her and this is in court documents you can read about
these testimonies came to her and said what you did was instrumental. we got a
lot of intelligence from those women that are going to save kids. I know that was hard, but it's going to we're going
to save kids because of what you did. And so he tries to redirect their focus and their um to well, I just went
through something traumatic, but if it saves kids, I guess it's okay. And that's been how he operates with
everybody for the last 10 years. He covers up his immoral, unethical, and
allegedly criminal behavior with a higher purpose, a higher goal, and tries
to convince people that the ends justify the means, even though the means are
absolutely damaging, breaking up families, breaking up marriages, um destroying the people who he has contact
with and their lives. just like the the guy who got shot through the leg, you know, his legs permanently damaged for
the rest of his life. And uh I actually had to have a like the irony of this or the the karma
in all this is I didn't know him at the time and 10 I don't know maybe eight
years later he ended up moving into my neighborhood and his daughter became daughter became best friends with my
daughter and um and getting to know her she said yeah my parents run a non help
run a nonprofit uh for human trafficking and I put two and together and went and
we ended up becoming really good friends and I had to have really hard conversation and and apologize for my
role in covering up what happened because he didn't know to that day that um that Tim was responsible in some way
for his accident. So this this whole process of talking about Tim is my repentance process, my
uh my taking ownership for the role I may have played that I did play in uh
building up this guy who took my dedication and the dedication and and passion of a lot of other people and ran
it off a cliff and hurt a lot of people in the process. Yeah, it's this whole idea of of the the ends justify the
means and and any means necessary, no matter what the boundaries are, it's
okay because the the goal here is so much higher right now. What and that
just opens, you know, Pandora's box, so to speak, on everything. It it allows for anything to happen and that is what
happens. What before we move forward on this, what what is your background to to where you would be an instructor on on
using ARs and and handguns, etc.? Um, I wasn't an instructor. We had two a
couple of Navy uh ex-Navy Seals that were the instructors there, but I was at
the time default right-hand man for Tim. um when
he was trying to I was friends with him when he was trying to when he was with the Department of Homeland Security and
I kind of became this advocate and default uh right-hand man for him that
was involved in not only helping organize OAR but um he'd have me like
when he was trying to move to Utah, he'd have me look up real estate listings. He'd have me schedule speaking events. I
would um answer emails and media inquiries and then um I'd meet I'd go to
most or a lot of the meetings that were uh scheduled with him and it's kind of became a default right-hand man. But at
that time my specialties with OR was to uh was film. My background is
documentary film and uh television production. So I uh that's that's primarily my
background. what I was going to do is going to be the media outreach for OUR.
And that's the other red flag that came up at that time is I had created the uh
concept for the abolitionist TV series which he had later made into a documentary
kind of fundraising movie that you may have seen or many people saw. And um I
lined up National Geographic Channel to air that to produce it. and he walked
away from that project for a couple reasons. One is uh
he wasn't going to pay really well. Um which was a shock to me that profit motive was was even a factor because
National Geographic Channel was going to air the abolitionist TV series that I created in I think over 120 countries
around the world. It would have been huge for bringing awareness to human trafficking and striking fear in the hearts of traffickers. I thought it was
slam dunk. But he was he had a problem with not getting paid well for it. And
then um he it wasn't going to air in the United States. That was a problem for him. I later learned it was because of
his fame seeking and political ambitions. He needed it to air in the United States for those reasons. But
then the third one was he needed to have absolute total creative control because
what was going to happen on missions, what did end up happening on missions and what ended up in his film like even
the sound of freedom was a grossly fictionalized version of those events.
I know for example he did not even go in and save this guy. you know that that portion of the movie where he goes in
into the jungle and finds this guy on his own and and and and saves him and
kill actually he actually ends up killing somebody on that mission in the movie. My understanding is that never
even happened. Yeah. Most of that movie is I'd say 90%
of it is fictional. I mean he he's creating a and that's with all the
movies from the abolitionist I was working on on he ended up bringing in narrative filmmakers from Hollywood uh
to tell the story instead of me because I come from a journalist background. I work for Fox, NBC, CBS News as a
journalist and there's some I have some journalistic standards I have to stand
by and if something doesn't happen on an operation or doesn't happen then that's not the story that we tell and
he has a problem with that uh because he just needs to get the footage to be able
to tell the story that he wants and then he spins these stories these narratives or now these con conspiracy theories
around his narration which projects him as a hero as you know the Jason Bour
kind of hero in the story even if that isn't the case even if that is like nowhere close to reality and sadly and
so that's the other major red flag why I also had to step out so I stepped out of
operations going on missions because I knew that Tim wouldn't have my back and if something bad happened to me I'd get
left in the jungle um if it if it was going to be damaging to his PR or his image somehow I didn't trust him. I
didn't think he knew what he was doing. But then also on the film side of it, which was my expertise, he wanted to
tell a fictional version of uh himself. And ultimately that he rode that
fictional narrative about himself all the way to the blockbuster Sound of Freedom movie, which millions of people
saw. And uh but it's it's it's not true.
Like very little of it is true. It's based on real people and real events. And I know this cuz I went to uh
Colombia and testified um in a court case uh as a character witness against
him uh two summers ago with a case surrounding Kelly Suarez. Um and
this would have been right at the time the Sound of Freedom was coming out. That's two two summers ago. Is that right? Uh
or is it the summer after? Two summers ago. So a year from a few months ago. Um so uh
so 2023 that that's when everything hit the fan. This would be
20 20 2024, summer of 2024. I think it's August is when I went to Columbia. Okay.
Um, so it was after Sound of Freedom, but shortly after. And the the reason
that trial was happening is in The Sound of Freedom, Kelly Suarez is the main villain, right? Um, she's this modeling
uh this model who was trafficking kids through a modeling agency. That's the story Tim tells.
I remember that. Mhm. Well, the truth is uh she was a 19-year-old girl that um was in
Cartahena and got invited to one of these parties where elicit things were
going to happen where they're they're inviting they're trying to invite kids to one of these sting operations. It was
a party on an island. Kelly went um Kelly had was involved in a conversation
with Tim where he was waving a bunch of money. and he said, "Hey, if you bring us if you bring people to this party,
we'll pay you, and the younger the better kind of thing." Um, and Kelly, this 19-year-old girl, got
caught up in that. Um, she uh agreed to help out and uh invite people to the
party for money and get paid for it. Um, she thought it might be a big break for her.
She was just a poor girl that was her mom sold fruit on the street. Mhm. Anyways, um she goes to the party,
gets arrested with everybody else. They've realized she goes to jail for a year and a half in one of the most
notoriously horrendous uh women's prisons in Colombia in the world. Spends
a year and a half in jail there before charges are dropped because they have no trafficking charges against her. She
wasn't controlling any kids. She wasn't trafficking anyone. So, all charges were dropped and she was released.
Fast forward like eight years, the Sound of Freedom movie comes out and Kelly
Suarez is one of the main villains in that, but she's a free woman walking the street that was never convicted or
charged or convicted of trafficking children. And that's how she's depicted in in the movie. Mhm.
So Tim organiz he's like we got to clean this up. And so he organizes a
conference for attorney generals or for prosecutors in Cartahena. Totally an
illegal gathering. Um but a lot of legal stuff happens in in Colombia. Um whines
and dines the prosecutors. A week later, one of those prosecutors files new
charges against Kelly Suarez out of the blue and she goes to trial and gets convict and gets convicted of pimping,
which is accepting money for somebody else doing sex work and she ends up
going to jail. So that whole effort was Tim trying to make his fictional movie
some have some semblance of reality because Kelly Suarez was a free woman
and she was the main villain in that movie and so he had to clean that up and so he ruined that woman's life all over
again and got a conviction of pimping um to stick to her and send her to prison
just to maintain his narrative that he is actually saving He's actually saving
kids and putting away bad guys. Um, so in in what you're saying then, I'm trying to remember how the movie
depicted this, but the whole island scene where there's a big, you know, pedophile
orgy basically going to be happening. This is this was Tim's idea to begin with.
Yeah. Yeah. And he and he was and he was waving money to Kelly to help organize this and bring all the kids
and and she did it sounds like right. She did bring some kids or uh she made some invitation but she
didn't bring any kids. That would be She didn't bring any kids. No, she didn't bring and and in that movie it's showing kids like that are 11
years old or something. Almost all of the people that came to that island in the actual raid and you
can there's a really great report by Redpilled America on this. It's on YouTube. You can watch it for free. Um
they did a deep investigation into this. All the kids that well kids um the people that came to were adults. They
were over the age of 18. There were a handful that were um under 18, but they
were above the age of consent. In in Colombia, the age of consent is 14.
There were no 10, 11, 12 year old kids. But that's what's depicted in the movie because that's what pulls at your heartstrings that you're like, "Oh,
these kids don't have any sort of agency cuz they're 10, 11, 12 years old. They're obviously being trapped." That's
not anywhere close to reality. We're talking about most of the people that went to this island were adults.
And even if Kelly is getting money for inviting an adult to this island party,
that's pimping. That's doesn't matter how the age is. And so they got her on pimping charges and got those to stick.
So I mean it's just a tangled mess of weaving a narrative to try and project
him as this hero and the savior when the reality is very very different. And I've been talking for the last couple years
with former OUR operatives that were on a lot of these raids. And it's not to
say that some kids didn't get saved because some kids did go from a bad situation to a good situation. If you're
doing this for 10 years, you'd have to be trying really hard not to save kids, not not for there to be um some kids
getting saved. However, the vast majority of cases were completely
unethical, um, immoral, um, and I believe were putting innocent people in
prison or at least, uh, coercing them in an unethical, immoral way by waving
money in front of desperate people in desperate situations and creating a
human trafficking market out of thin air by walking around asking for access to kids and waving money around. He's
creating markets for human trafficking in places where it didn't exist. And uh
this is why he OR Tim has been denounced by human trafficking organizations around the world that his tactics are
not effective and do more harm than good. It's why UR ended up um firing him
and they no longer conduct these sting operations which which on the board and those
involved are a lot of his family members. Yeah. Yeah. His family members were on
the board. He he packed the board with loyalists and even his family members
saw that the internal investigation into OR and the sexual assault claims were so
egregious that he had to go and this was before the sound of freedom came out. Yeah.
It was I think it was the same year but it was earlier that year I think that that that shortly before. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. So I you know I've I've talked to a number of people that were involved with OUR. I've heard people say, "Yeah, we were definitely helping."
Um I I as I went back and talked to them again, it was like, "Well, I guess I didn't actually see something." And then
there are some people that said, "Yeah, we did help people. I really do think we helped some kids." And others have said,
"We never helped anyone." And so, you know, kind of a mixed bag of the people that I've talked to on this.
In your view then from what you're saying do you think that at least some of these operations if not more are
majority are are almost a PR event stunt so that he can raise more money and and
hire and lift his profile or is he genuinely trying typically to to go out
and save children? Yeah. No, absolutely. And that's this is what I testified in court of in Colombia
is that Tim's primary motivation is fame, money, and political ambition.
That's his primary motivation. And then he does these sting operations and conducts these for the movie making
things for for the footage that he can get to then weave a a mostly fictional
narration of him in action. Um, but his primary, and this is what I've came to
realize over working with him over over the seven years, is that his primary motivations are fame, money, and uh
power. And he's using the
the cause of human trafficking and the cause of trying to rescue kids in bad
situations as a means for those ends. Because he was working for the government doing this exact same thing,
you know, antihuman trafficking. But in the government, there's no fame, there's no credit, there's no money. I mean, he
was making six figures at the time, so he was making a really good living. Um, but there's no credit, no fame. You
can't fund raise and you can't uh can't be in control. And so that tells you
everything. He could have stayed at DHS and ICE working in human trafficking and rescuing kids with all the resources
that the federal government has, all the vast resources, the diplomatic immunity, the ability to carry weapons into other
countries. He can't even carry a gun in these other countries because foreigners aren't allowed to carry weapons anywhere in any other countries. Um, all of the
intelligence assets that the government has, he gave all of that up to do it on
his own as if he's Batman because of fame, money, and this the desire to be
recognized and the hero status, this messiah complex that he has to feed that
ego. He did all of that. He left the government. so that he could have access to those things that are at the core of
his personality. And that's been that should be pretty obvious to uh anybody who's worked with him for any period of
time as it was to me. Do you know of
anything where where where Tim was basically enriching himself off of his donors?
In other words, you know, is there money coming directly to him and his and the way he's living and maybe you even using
ridiculous expenses for you owe you in order to enrich his life or
you know as compared to no we need to use all this money here this sacred donor money that people are giving
because they want to help children. Yeah. I'll give you I'll give you a few examples. one, and
this is publicly available because of this 501c3 status of OUR, that Tim was
getting paid before he left 500 and some $530,000
annual salary. Mhm. Which is a lot. You know, I don't think
anybody needs to live off of half a million dollars a year, especially him. He came from I mean, he comes from a
family with money, but even at that, there's a lot of that money. Let's say he takes a generous salary of $200,000 a
year. That's $300,000 that could go towards saving kids. But he maxed out highest paid ma almost highest paid
maxed out his salary. Then he would get benefits on top of that. Um, but then he
also would put his his family members in positions of on this on the payroll,
including his son, uh, Blaine, who was getting $70,000 a
year, even while he was on his mission, I believe. I have to double check that.
Um, but while he was getting his kids getting paid and then his wife Katherine was also on the payroll and then he also
put his brother and he put all these family members on the payroll that were
getting enormous sums of money um and uh living very very largely. Then like in
Katherine's case, uh when there was a premiere of Sound of Freedom in New York at uh uh Katherine asked for a private
jet to fly her, she didn't want to fly coach. And so they chartered a fi private jet at the tune of $50,000 to
fly just her. And I have a video and there's a video circulating out there of her giving a tour of this private jet
that she's on to just go pop up to New York, attend this premiere with Tim and
fly home. And uh that private jet was chartered just for her at the tune of
$50,000 which I mean you tell me if that's if that's
extravagant. Um also extravagant again it's it's a matter of of funds. It's a matter of how
important, you know, if I'm giving money and I maybe maybe I'm, you know, an older widow and I'm giving a $100 even
or $500 because I want so badly for these kids to be helped, that that's obviously not a great use of
funds to uh yeah, respect those donors that are that are trying to help out. Mhm. And
unfortunately, it gets worse because not only was Tim living a the lifestyle that he wants, that extravagant lifestyle um
on these sacred funds on these generous donations, but I've interviewed uh
people that were involved with the UR ran uh nonprofit uh excuse me, orphanage
called Foyer Desion in Haiti. And from the people that were there on
the ground, they have given testimony that the donations that they were collecting in the United States, even
food and shoes um that were being sent to this OUR
orphanage in Haiti were being confiscated by the orphanage director
and sold on the black market. M and this is to the detriment of the kids because she said that the kids and this
comes from multiple people that I've talked to that the kids were walking around in the yard of this or orphanage
for day and they'd had no shoes and there's goats or chickens or other
animals that were um their feces was in this yard as is common in uh Haiti and
worms were getting into their feet uh parasites. And so they were getting sick from worms
from parasites getting into their feet from walking around on um animal feces. And so they organized a a fundraiser to
get a bunch of shoes for all the kids, got the shoes, shipped them from America, brought them down here, gave them to the orphanage director who then
took those and sold those shoes on the black market. And week later, like where are all the shoes? Why are the kids all
walking around? and did some investigation and that turns out that's what happened. This orphanage director
is a man named um Gzno Marty. And for anybody who's been involved in uh or
attended OUR fundraisers from the very beginning, Gzno is a man who had a son
who was kidnapped from church. He's he was an LDS bishop. His son was kidnapped
from from church. Um I'm forgetting the year. I think 2009 I
want to say and um and Elder Ballard asked Tim to help find this kid.
Is that the beginning of their relationship? Mhm. Uh with Elder Ballard. Yeah. Yeah. That was the very first assignment
or project. Elder Ballard. Um yeah, that's probably the beginning. The Elder
Ballard asking Tim to use his expertise to find Gardy, this this bishop's son.
Um and uh this man Gizno was the orphanage director here. Now, fast
forward, what comes out from this orphanage that OUR took over and was running and it was part of the UR board
is that GZno was not only um selling the kids shoes,
but uh two different uh girls came forward with
um testimonies that they were being sexually abused on a regular basis by
the orphanage staff and that Gzno had forced them to get abortions when they
became pregnant. And this all was brought to the attention of Tim and Our
and the whistleblowers, the women that brought all this attention were marginalized, silenced, the girls were
intimidated and went into hiding. And Gizno, this is all because Gizno and the
story about his son being kidnapped from church was a huge fundraiser for Tim and
O. Huge fun. Well, that that's kind of the the thread that runs through the sound of freedom, isn't it? That is that the portrayal of
what of Gizno's son that he finally gets at the very end. Yeah, Gzno. Yeah, Gizno. And Gizno is
being used as a fundraiser for this. So when all these allegations came out about
uh kids being sexually abused and forced abortions and were brought to the
attention of not only Tim but Glenn Beck was involved in this orphanage was brought brought to his attention. Um
they chose to bury it and hide it because 7 months later they're launching Katherine's Children Need Families
adoption agency and that was a big fundraiser for for her and Guo spoke at that. So they had somebody who was
allegedly a actual trafficker that was protecting pedophiles that were raping kids under his stewardship speak at
their fundraiser to raise money for anti-trafficking human anti-human
trafficking efforts. Like I'm sorry, this gets me really upset because this is like so beyond just evil and
deceptive. It's just it's just like the worst of the worst. Um,
and uh, yeah, that's what's going on. So, so you're and you're involved with
him at this time. Is that right? You're you're involved with Tim. You're his right-hand man at this time.
Oh, at no. At this, this was all happening in 2017, right when after I
had my falling out with him. Okay. After you'd had the falling out. Yeah. But you kind of knew what was going on.
Yeah. With the Guardi stuff, the kid that was kidnapped. Yeah. I was I was in meetings and fundraisers with Gzno and
and other prominent people. Um yeah, so I would go I would go to these private
meetings with Tim with Guo. GZ would tell a story about his kid his son being kidnapped um and try and encourage
support and favor from different people including general authorities at this
time um for helping OR How was he,
how was he using the church then? I mean, it's obviously I mean, is he looking for resources? Is he looking
for, hey, I'm accepted by the church? Uh, I I mean, I I don't know how most
people feel about Tim today, but I see him as an absolute narcissist. And and I think those if you're going
into a relationship with him, it is about Tim. And uh but but what what what is what is
his relationship with the church? How does that develop and and is he is he
using that relationship? Yeah. Um I think like I said uh Elder
Ballard got involved because it probably obviously weighed really heavy on Elder Eller Bald's heart. A kid getting
kidnapped from Sure. primary like that every parent's worst
nightmare. and uh he becomes aware of this guy Tim who has skills of allegedly
having skills of being able to track down traffickers and rescue kids. So I I
mean I have no reason to not believe that that was just a genu genuine invitation from Elder Ballard to try and
fix a really tragic situation. And that's where that relationship started. And this goes back to, you know, what's
in the Book of Mormon where, you know, the wicked people at the time of Christ were destroyed because they were wicked.
And so Tim would take this that the threat of that message and weave it into his narration that uh the American
Covenant is if you don't do things right, if you don't if you're not a
righteous person, then God's going to come down and destroy you and your family. And that's a message that's based in
fear. Um I don't and that's a message that can have really destructive effects. It did
in my life turned me into a hardcore prepper and started uh going down some really fearful paths with me and my
family. But um the other side of that message that is something I can get behind is that
several people have done that by the way. Yeah. By um by turning to God in
faithful prayer in hopeful um in hopeful faithromoting
ways not fearful ways. the the hopeful faith promoting ways can be a good thing in people's lives and our communities in
general and stuff. And so Elder Ballard wanted to uh advance that message. Um
and I became involved because he asked me to make a TV show about Tim that
would advance the American Covenant message. And he believed that that was a
message that would and it did that would resonate uh with evangelical Christianity. um a message that both uh
mainstream members of the church Jesus Christ Latterday Saints and Evangelical Christian we can all agree on the fact
that God played a role in the founding of America that he inspired some very
inspirational heroic men to do some amazing things that have blessed the whole world. you know, a very that
message is something that, you know, you can take all of the controversial stuff
about the about works versus grace between, you know, evangelical
Christianity and and Mormons and set that aside. And and so he was hoping
from my perspective, he was hoping that this could be a unifying message that uh would bring Church of
Jesus Christ Latter Saints into mainstream evangelical Christianity in some way.
um and thought that Tim's message and his books around the American Come It
could be a bridge in that way. And so I was asked to make a TV show about that. And so that was a lifelong not lifelong
like a 10-year effort by Elder Ballard is to try and incorporate that message that would reflect well on the church.
Um but I still I really I still to this day see Elder Ballard as somebody that got used by Tim for his own ends. And
the other thing that um that Tim ran off the cliff that Eller Balor did was very very early on when um and Tim was very
troubled. This was before UR started but he was trying to transition. Um he was very troubled about uh things to do with
a sexual nature that he didn't didn't say that he had to do with his job that he was he was really troubled by and I
took it at the time was that he had to look at uh child pn
and that was bothering him and so he'd be going to the temple twice a week as much as off as often as possible and he
was really troubled and disturbed by um something along those lines and he went to Elder Ballard when at after they
became friends. And he came back and he told me that he got a sec a special blessing from Elder Ballard that um
absolved him from guilt over what he was doing in to uh what he had to do to try
and save kids. And and what he told me was um that uh Elder Balor gave him a
special blessing that he would not be held accountable for sins committed
while in the act of trying to save kids. And um that's kind of a general
statement. A lot of people have speculated that that was the second anointing or something. I don't know if it was. It sounds like it, but um
anyways, Tim used that uh that
I guess I guess he saw it as a get out of jail free card because there's no way
that Elder Ballard would condone or support uh Tim committing sexual assault
of women, you know. However, in Tim's own mind, he thought he had a free pass
to commit sins um and do things that were
immorally wrong as long as it was in the effort of saving kids. So then he comes up with like this couple's ruse idea
where he takes women that are married to other people and makes them his partner
on these operations to act as his spouse on these operations. Yes. Yes. I've spoken to those women.
Yeah. And I'm I'm really excited to hear um what you have to say on that. Um but
then he takes this this concept that he can't he won't be held accountable before the church or God um for
his sexual advances and he just runs with it. And he I I believe he lost
completely lost control of his own passions as is evident by the myriad of
lawsuits. And so um so getting back to Elder Ballard is was
used in the same way I was used. Elder Ballard's passion and desire to do good things was used and manipulated in a way
that and this is you know hard to hear uh for a lot of people and it's hard for
me to like wrestle at the time also with but um Tim is a ma master manipulator, a
master narcissist, somebody that believes his own lies and tells himself these lies to the point that he believes
them and he's very charismatic and he used all of that to manipulate people
into giving giving him what he needs and what he wants. And unfortunately, from
my perspective, it's so subtle and it's like I mean, a lot of really important,
intellectual, smart people fell victim to this con and so it's it's sad, but
here we are. Did he have any involvement with Janet Russen when you were with
him? Um I was told so Janet was introduced to
Janet by the way to the audience is the psychic that he often uh sought counsel from.
Yeah that's a good question. Um uh Janet was introduced
uh to other UR employees as the church's psychic
and all the church's psychic. Yeah, the church is psychic. So, uh, the
information we have on where Janet came from comes from Tim, who's not a reliable source. However, so Tim claims
that Tim claims, uh, to multiple people that, um, Janet is totally approved by
Elder Ballard. Um, and that Elder Ballard personally
used Janet as his psychic. And, uh, but that information comes from
Tim. And so, I don't know. I don't know. That's that's where that that trail leads. We
haven't gotten any comment from Eller Ballard or his family specifically on the role Janet Russen played. However,
Janet was used for a lot of years. A lot of years all the
way up until current day as Tim's source for intelligence and trying to find Gardy, the kid in Haiti and trying to
find traffickers. Janet was the only intelligent source he had and uh is this
remote viewer uh psychic. Actually, she wasn't the only one. There was a second one named Lori who I was familiar with
who I who I knew um when I was there. And she was had different psychic abilities. She claimed to be able to
talk to be able to see spirits beyond the veil. The veil didn't exist for her. And so she could talk to people beyond
the veil. And Tim brought her in also as a consultant uh to as a source of
intelligence as well. He brought her on the trip because he was really excited. He's like, "If she can see dead people,
then she we'll go to John Adams house and maybe she can talk to John Adams and we can have a conversation with John Adams."
So I uh reluctantly booked her on our tour and brought her on. But um as far
as I'm aware, no founding fathers talked to us on that trip through her.
Okay. This is a crazy story. I can't like I hear myself speaking. I'm like, "What?
Really? That happened?" Yeah. Was there any any any
uh illicit sexual behavior by Tim while you were with him that you know of?
Mhm. No, not while I was with him. Um Okay. If you read through the lawsuits, they
all the couple's ruse really got implemented. Yeah. Like 2016, 2017
onward. Unfortunately, I've read through all of those. Yeah. So, his evolution of losing
control um took a while. It took a while. And I'm I'm actually really
really thankful I wasn't around for those years, those later years when everything hit the fan and he's and he
has to maintain control through threatening people at OUR and firing them. my my neighbor that lived right
down the street was uh he was high up in OUR and um when she called Tim out on
on misusing funds uh he immediately fired her, took her
laptop and she got a a packet from the lawyer threatening that he would sue her
into oblivion if she spoke out about anything. Yeah. And so that's for the last like five
years of OR that's how he's operating. He's keeping binders of pe of dirt on people that he could use to coers them.
And I know personally that I'm people I'm friends with that when the atur attorney general um Davis County
attorney was investigating Tim and O for fraud, Tim was going around and he even contacted me at this time to try to
first off curry favor from people that he had wronged, but also if that didn't
work then he threatened them that he'd take them down with him if if they spoke
out uh against him. So, what do you make of his most recent, you know, coming out in the last few months,
uh, posts that he's putting out there? Uh, he's he's he's cry trying to, uh,
it's almost like he he's going after the church for internal sexual abuse, what they call SRRA. Yeah.
And associating and by by implication consistently that that the very highest
at the very highest levels, the church is involved with sexual ritual abuse. uh he that they participated in what would
be RICO level election interference to stop his Senate run which was going on
about to start it appears in in 2023 and that he's got this there's this deep
church type of uh conspiracy that that's against it
what do you make of that and how do you see that as just part of his kind of the evolution that you were talking about?
Yeah, very much so. In fact, I'll just tell you the pattern here. Um Tim used
the cause of human trafficking to raise tens of millions of dollars for his or own organization.
Then when he got ousted and that fundraising is seemed to be dry is
drying up. Um he moved to different conflict when uh the Ukraine war uh
broke out and stuff. Tim shows up in Ukraine to
try to film himself in dangerous situations attempting to rescue kids.
And then he takes that footage back. He makes a little promo video about it and then asks for people's donations. You
need to give me money to help me save the Ukrainian kids that are being lost in the frey. Then um when that doesn't
work or that funding source dries out, then he moves on to a different crisis which was more recently um the Drew
situation in Syria. There's a Christian Drews population in southern Syria that
was being attacked by ISIS. And who shows up? Tim shows up there, goes into the Drews community, films
himself meeting them, like these people need your help, makes a fundraising video about it, then launches a website,
please donate, right? In Syria, in southern Syria. Yeah. This was like, I don't know, two months ago. Mhm.
And um and then when the border back in, you know, several years ago when the
border wall was a hot topic, Tim gets on becomes uh very vocal about advocating
for a border wall and supporting President Trump and gets on uh some congressional hearings about that. Uh
and of course fundraises for his own organization through those efforts. And now he's now pivoting his cause to
sexual ritual abuse of children within the Mormon church right after he was
denied his second uh appeal for reversing sex
communication. And so what I see as a pattern like I don't know I don't have
any firsthand knowledge whether SRRA happens in the church. I've read the Glen Place memo and I'm fully aware and
fully believe that there are very nefarious people that are using their positions in church in any community to
get access to kids. Whether that's at an institutional level or how high up it goes, I have no knowledge of any of
that. I don't know anything. However, I do know that Tim is a master propheteer
of horrific human rights abuses, and he
inserts himself, makes a video, says that he's the one that's going to save these kids, and then asks for your
money. And that's been a grift he's been running for over 10 years that's worked
really, really well. And so the pattern is he's now taking on the church for two
reasons. One is he thinks he's he's trying to raise money for his own TBF organization as Tim Ballard Foundation.
He's also trying to position himself as a righteous crusader. And he also realizes that the church has rejected
him and not only through the vice statement, but he's lost two appeals for
reversing the excommunication freed statement in the church. And so he's in
fictional narration mode where he's got to spin a conspiracy theory how that makes him still the righteous crusader
that's on God's side. And in order for him to be a righteous crusader that's on God's side, there must be evil
Satan worshippers that are holding him down. Like he's accused me of being uh
working for the traffickers. He's accused the women of working for traffickers and pedophiles and um and
their lawyers also. And so anybody that criticizes him or doesn't give him what
he wants, like a true narcissist, a true narcissist, he'll um try and smear and
attack. And I think it's just a childish as that. It's just as childish as that is he's not getting his way and he's
throwing a temper tantrum. Even though he doesn't have any evidence of these claims. Like if he had any evidence, I
think he'd put those forward. But so far, he's just making claims without providing any evidence. I don't know
that he's talked to any victims. I don't know that he has any documents. He's just making threats to try and
intimidate and threaten Doug Anderson and the PR department and uh and make
the general authorities scared that they need to reinstate him, give him what he wants, like a spoiled little toddler.
Really, that's the way I see it. Yeah. Again, it's it's a narcissistic move that that it's it's just odd. I
mean, there's there's a chance, honestly, we know this through the gospel. There's a chance for everyone to
humble themselves, get a broken heart and a contrite spirit and and kind of
look back and say, "Okay, maybe I need to change some things in my life." And that's just not going on with him at
all. It's the exact opposite, it seems. And um it's it's it's really too bad. My
concern with Tim above all now that everything's happened so far, you know,
that's in the past that he's done and the things that he's ruined and the people he's ruined,
um, is moving forward. you know, there I I have I have people that have been listeners for several years of the
program and all of a sudden they're showing up in the comments and they're talking about, well, there's enough
evidence now on the SRRA stuff and I think Tim Ballard's right and there's a be big deep conspiracy and and I'm
settled now. I think this is all real and and I'm just, you know, I've got a few of those comments. like this is this
is insane, you know, that that someone would think I I know that Tim is very
convincing and I know that he fights for these ideals or apparently fights for these ideals that people can really be
emotionally compelled to be a part of, right? and and you and I think that that that that's what he's used all along,
but at this point where he is directly fighting against the church and making
insane accusations against church leaders uh and and the church as a whole, I I
just I worry that people are going to fall into his little spell
and and start believing what he's saying because they've put credibility in him
before at at a moral level, right at a it's not just okay I believe what at a moral level they've they've committed to
him and and supported him and and I think it's easier then in the future to
do the same thing yeah without question that's a great observation I know what
you're talking about personally because I was very close to him I revered him I
love this guy we work closely together and it caused me to turn a blind eye to
these red flags for far far too because I wanted to believe the best about him and he was involved in some
really good things and some righteous crusades, you know, right? And uh but I can it's taken me a long
time, especially like a lot of self-reflection over the last few years and getting to know some of the women that he's assaulted um to re-evaluate my
own um judgment is actually like actually totally destroyed the confidence in my own judgment. If I go
back and reflect on how many red flags I let go before uh I came to realization that
he's not who he claimed he was. Um but yeah, what what you're talking about, I
was the most passionate person about his book. I put it on TV. I went on I
created a tour about him. I was really passionate about the message and uh and
uh that caused my myself to put blinders on um because once I categorized him as
a righteous person doing God's work, then um it was really hard for me to
unatategorize him from from that. And I'm really really I'm really really thankful that the
church issued the statement that they did calling his behavior immoral immoral and unacceptable
because um it just gives people uh an opportunity to open that door in their
own mind. But like you're saying a lot of people aren't opening that door partially because he is weaving a
conspiracy theory that Elder Ballard has had his back all the way to the last day. that Elder Nelson was appalled as
at his or President Nelson was appalled at his excommunication. Yeah. The picture of Jesus fell from the
wall. I know. Yeah. Jes Yeah. Even Jesus was like, I can't stand for this. And he
knocks his own picture off the wall. Yeah. That's a real story, by the way, if if your listeners haven't heard it.
Um Yeah. And so he he's weaving this new narrative that he's still on the on
God's side even though like you said there is absolutely zero zero effort to
be repentant or humble in any way shape or form. He knows what he did to these
women. He knows that he was using Elder Ballard's name for his own business profits. I know that I saw him drop
Elder Ballard's name like it was an involuntary cough. Everybody saw that. the whiteboard meeting that we've talked
about on Cara Burrell's podcast and other podcasts um goes into detail about
how he was positioning Elder Ballard in his business endeavors uh to gain
credibility to help people support him. And so the church was absolutely right in denouncing him that he was using
Elder Ballard's name. Um I don't know about without authorization. Um, I know
Elder Ballard didn't want to be involved like on an official level and Tim was putting him on a official level. Um, but
he was definitely using Elder Ballard's name for his own personal uh, benefit and he knows that. I mean, it's so well
documented. I mean, he knows that. But you don't see a single ounce of humility or repentance or acknowledgement that he
may have done something wrong. It's it's the absolute opposite. He's angry. He's
fingerpointing. He's blaming everybody else. He's saying, "You're all working for the pedophiles and the traffickers.
Like, I'm the bad guy. You're calling me the bad guy." In his mind, he's the most most righteous dude ever, and he can't
do anything wrong. And it goes back to like, I think he took, you know, the well-intended
uh counsel from um Elder Ballard about the ethical dilemmas he was in in working in
human trafficking. and he took that in his own mind as a get out of jail free card and just ran it off a cliff. And
he's convinced himself that he can't do anything wrong, that he's never done anything wrong. I mean, even though like
in in the documents for court and the filings, it's been exposed that he's
paid $1.5 million to pro prostitutes during his time at OUR. But he wants to
wants us to believe that nothing immoral or sexual ever happened. like nothing. And so
and and again, I've spoken to the some of these women and that's an absolutely not true. I mean, based on these women's
accounts anyway, I it which seemed very credible to me. Yeah. And and they were describing very
similar things individually of kind of how he would operate with
with with all of this. Uh yeah. What? Tell me more about that. I really I mean we
Yeah. But, you know, I I was actually in this was right in this was in September. I
don't remember. I think the Vice article came out in early September, as I recall. I had just gone that summer to
the Sound of Freedom premiere. Uh, you know, I had Tim on the show
that summer. I don't remember it was right before. I think it maybe a week before the premiere on this. Uh, and uh, so you know, all of
a sudden, you know, you come into September and and and everything hits the fan, the Vice article comes out. I'm
in Egypt at the time. I'm in Cairo and uh, I'm having to stay up all night
because everyone else here is, you know, working through this during the day and I'm getting on the phone with people
about what's going on. And I've got sources that are bringing witnesses and
and and the women uh uh knew the women and and brought them in and and and so I'm I'm interviewing them for, you know,
each of them about an hour uh while I'm in Egypt and and trying to
get as much information on this as I can. I end up doing an episode on this
at the time from my hotel room. Um, but I don't go into a lot of
specifics and and the reason I didn't at the time go into specifics is because I mean you got a journalistic background.
I don't. But I knew it would be unethical to go after someone so highprofiled without having names.
Mhm. And so at the time I did not know who I was speaking with. That's changed since then, but I I
didn't know who I was speaking with. And and so I just felt that on on the 1% chance that somehow somebody hired an
actress or something to to get on the phone with me. I'm not going to do this, right? I can't I can't go through some of the specifics on this. But it was
very obvious to me what was happening and that these women were real and that they were that they were telling the
truth. Did you feel that their pain was genuine? Absolutely.
Yeah, absolutely. I felt their pain was genuine. Um it was uh
It was it was it was it was all a ruse as you say. It wasn't the couple's ruse that he was looking for. It was Tim's
ruse based on what their accounts were, right? It it was it was he was trying to
get something done that was not just trying to help the kids based on what they were saying. And it seemed very
obvious. It was true. There was an awful lot of detail and names.
And uh it was it was very obvious to me that you know some of this showed up in the court documents. Some of what I have
in my notes is not from the co in the court documents. But um I did go through all of those at the
time. But yeah, it was very obvious. Uh there was someone else on the phone in those interviews also that was uh
close to Tim. And uh so yeah it was uh
it was it was concerning at the time. It was very concerning on understanding okay what is in his mind
at this time and how is he accomplishing all of this and how is he using his profile his status and this moral
directive of we got to save the kids to do maybe some nefarious things. And
and were were you also uh like afraid of coming out in opposition
to Tim in any way? No, I've never been afraid of that. I'm not afraid of that now.
A lot of people are and and rightfully so. I know people that have been attacked by him that did come out and and they've
gone after some people I know and uh so I I understand that. I'm not
as concerned about that. It's not like I don't worry about it. I mean, sure, I think he he may he may do something on
this interview, but uh I I'm I was more concerned about
being right, I guess, to someone who's already got a high profile and and
making sure that I had all my eyes dotted and tees crossed, so to speak,
on everything. And I think that if if I had a journalistic background, I think that's exactly what it would teach me, right? Is is you've got to you've got to
have these things. You've got to know. Mhm. I knew the sources of of who was
bringing me uh these interviews, but it wasn't enough for me.
Mhm. At the time. So, yeah. But you're talking about it now because
you feel that there's enough evidence in the court documents to play paint a pretty clear picture of who he is and
what he was about. Yeah. It's not just that. It's just that in the last couple of months in in what
he's doing now, uh, and going directly after the church,
uh, and just kind of this it's almost like a
cult-like behavior to me is I I just and then having people respond to what he's posted in the last
couple of months in a way where I understand people are falling for this. Mhm. you know, then that's that's kind
of what it was like, okay, I I need to talk about this a little bit more. We need to do something about this. And and
it it's not going the way it should with him. Uh again, where you humble yourself
and and and repent and try and move forward with your life, it seems to be going the exact opposite direction.
And I'm concerned for people that might follow him. That that's why I want to speak about it.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, thanks for speaking about it because you have a totally different audience from most of the podcasts I've I've appeared on and
uh and I've been shocked but not totally surprised at uh
at the following that he still has. Um like if you read through the comments on his social media and stuff, they're
people that are still like, "We believe in you, Tim. We never doubted. We know the bad guys are after you. Like you're
doing God's work. Keep up the good fight." Um, and it just comes from like this. He's has 10 years to build this
audience. probably a lot of those pe some of those people are people that came on our tours and I had a genuine
spiritual experience in Tim's presence about the miracles that we've been talking about and uh and were very
inspired by his books and um but I think the I guess probably the one
message I would have for those people is that anybody is susceptible to falling
anybody susceptible to taking a path of darkness and um And so just because Tim
was doing something that was inspiring to me and a lot of people uh previously
doesn't mean that everything that he's doing is in the same effort that that
he's I mean I don't know how else to put it but uh I
think he also had elements of this narcissistic self-destructive like
self-randising behavior before um but it was all kept under check,
under wraps, just like all of us that have vices that we're always trying to deal with, you know, everybody does,
but it's like which wolf do you feed, you know? And he ended up feeding the wolf that was self-randisizing,
narcissistic, vindictive, and uh wanting to attack anybody and
everybody that had anything negative to say about him. And that's what we're
seeing today. Um, but I don't know how I don't know how to get to through to people to like open their minds to that
possibility because some people are just really even just absolutely closed to the possibility. Probably because they
read his books, they had, you know, a spiritual manifestation that some things
in his books or something he was saying um was true and resonated with them. And
so from then on, he's the he's doing God's work and he can't fall from grace
and they won't believe any of these lies about him regardless of how much evidence there
is, regardless of how many testimonies there are of people coming out and regardless of how contradictory his
behavior is from the very religion in scripture that we all grew up learning about, you know.
Yeah. It's this cognitive dissonance between this person that projects
himself as a servant of God and what his actual behavior and what's coming out of
his mouth is is contradicting. Um, but some people can't see it and I don't
know how I don't know how to get through to those people. Well, you know, it's it's it goes all the way up to the point
of some people that I think are still close to him believe he's some kind of
almost messianic figure. Mhm. Right. I' I've heard messianic figure. I've I've heard the ser the David the
Davidic servant. Yeah. I've heard all these things and I'm like, are you kidding me? This is And so
there it's a sense that okay, this is someone of course he has to be outside the church. you know, he's got to be
outside the church to be able to bring forward the the real true message that's got to be brought.
Mhm. And you know, it's it's it's a bad path and people need to know
that it is a very dangerous bad path to go down. Mhm. To reject the actual servants of God and
and the the it's I I don't know. I I it's that again
that's why I'm speaking about this and and because I just see so much of this. I know people that have been close to him
and and I know at least a couple that are still close to him and that's the way they talk and and it's it's concerning.
Yeah. And and the other I mean he's he's so good. I hate giving him credit but I got to give him credit where credit's
due. Like he's so good at manipulating people because he's got he's got an answer for everything. And one of the
other answers that he's given is like Joseph Smith was attacked in the same way. Joseph Smith was was accused of
sexual impropriy. Um Joseph Smith had to, you know, start his own church. I
think he's foreshadowing him starting his own church, his own religion, his own breakoff splinter group. But he
compares himself in a lot of these rants to uh Joseph Smith and tries to play off
of people's belief in Joseph Smith and like well if I gave Joseph Smith a pass there maybe I should give Tim Tim a pass
here also. And so he really muddies the water on on what what using people's
beliefs to support his own causes. Yeah. Yeah. And us does it all in the
name of Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. like I just want all in the name of Jesus and and the
church doesn't do anything in the name of Jesus and and it's it's a very odd
very odd take. So anyway, Ryan, thanks so much for coming on. Is there anything else you want to say that you didn't get out yet or?
Um no, I mean just I just really appreciate you bringing attention to this. Um, I'm not I've taken huge risks
personally, litigation wise, like speaking out against him, but it's because I feel so passionately
about who he is and trying to warn people so they don't fall for his deceptive natures and use their own
spirituality to serve himself. And um, and so I really appreciate you bringing
attention to this and for having the courage to to uh, step out. there's not a lot of um podcasters in your position
that um have really been able been willing to take this leap and um talk
about these hard subjects, you know, talk about this this in this way. So, I really appreciate doing that. And uh I'm
I'm trying to uh I'm starting I started a Substack to uh put some articles more
about this experience if anybody wants to follow me there. Yeah. Where where do they find you? Uh Ryan Fischer AK78, I believe. Um it
is and um I'm going to be releasing probably pretty soon a very lengthy
I I've com compiled all of the research um on
Tim and how he gained his authority and power over people in um a very long
presentation. It's probably going to be like 3 or 4 hours that I'm going to be putting up on my Nephite Explorer
Explorer YouTube channel shortly hopefully. Um, and so, uh, stay tuned
for that. I mean, I could give you the links you can put in the description if that's something, uh, people want to follow. But I have no I don't work for
the pedophiles. I'm not getting political money from anybody. I'm just trying to raise awareness so that people
don't fall victim like I did to uh, somebody who was a con artist. and uh
appreciate you giving me the chance to to get that message out there. All right, Ryan, appreciate your time and your courage.
Okay.