Is BYU Conquering Its Wokeness?

Jacob Christensen, Editor-In-Chief of the digital student media organization, The Cougar Chronicle, talks with Greg about what's happening at BYU. Are things getting better or worse, or is it stuck at the status quo?

Jacob has his ear to the ground on the cultural issues that may conflict with the mission of Brigham Young University. He and his team have uncovered countless stories of anti-family, woke behavior by faculty and departments at BYU. This interview is a type of status report.

 Raw Transcript

we're always on the defense we had to prove that no no no we actually help the lgbtq students feel belonged no no no no
we have this office of belonging that helps the marginalized and the minority students we're always playing defense
we've sacrificed the unique message of the restoration and in doing so we're seeing these lower numbers we become a
weaker a weaker faith in that we're not leaning into our uniqueness we're too worried about being unil exclusive that
we're generalizing way too far whereas we're losing the unique message of the restoration the fundamental message of
exaltation which is the thread that runs through the entire
[Music] gospel all right in this episode we're
bringing on Jacob Christensen who is the editor of the cougar Chronicle the cougar Chronicle does an amazing job of
checking things there at Brigham Young University uh I have been involved with them for a while even before Jacob was
there with others like Luke Hansen and Tommy Stevenson and we did a lot of collaboration especially back in the day
he has his ear to the ground on what's going on at BYU there are certainly some improvements in some areas we talk about the office of belonging we talk about
what to do with certain teachers so he brings a perspective that is right there on the ground with BYU at the at the BYU
campus now this episode is brought to you by scripture notes scripture notes is my preferred application to use for
all of my scripture study whether it's my book whether it is I'm focusing on a topic uh as I add more and more and more
into the collection notes and into the highlighting and the referencing and the
tying together of all the different verses um it's just I don't know how
anyone can go to scripture notes use scripture notes once you've got it down while you would ever go anywhere else
scripture notes.com go there and check it out scripture notes.com here we go
all right welcome to Quick show my name is Greg Matson and I am your host in this episode we've brought on Jacob
Christensen the editor of the cougar Chronicle how's it going Jacob doing well thank you CG good love what you
guys do I follow you a lot I remember early on back with Tommy Stevenson and Luke Hansen was working with them and
that's one of the first little connections that I had as I was starting to give uh do some episodes on on brigam Young University but uh you guys really
have your ear to the ground on what's going on boots on the ground what's going on in the classrooms and
and policy changes at BYU where do you see BYU based on the last few years that
you've been there and where it's going how is it going are the changes that Elder Gilbert has put in place helping
um what do you see um I would I would say I'm CAU cautiously optimistic about
it um I would say when I first came in 2021 I started getting involved with the chronical late that year and we had just
come out of BLM all this stuff and so the class I was already in there was fully invested in uh this kind of
racialism that we saw and and including the lgbtq stuff and so those those two
years between 21 and maybe 22 23 I would say were probably the roughest years
that I've seen there um was it just because the a lot of the look I mean in
my mind there's about 24 professors that that I would think of but there's they're just more emboldened at that
time do you think oh yeah and it was it was uh um you know the late the last president worin was kind of leaning in a
little too hard I think into the diversity stuff belonging you had Ryan Gabriel who you know well and and BBY
and all these professors drafting up this this document to inform BYU on how they're doing with diversity that
included a bunch of radical stuff you know we're going to rename the buildings it you had a lot of this stuff going on
and that kind of seeped into the student body and the student body was also riled up by by what happened in 20 yeah and so
from there um obviously you had people well I mean you had Shane ree
coming into the that that that whole thing I I believe he was asked to go in there but it's um where did it go from
there I mean how we obviously they're not as emboldened as they used to be you're not getting all the same stuff that we used to get but where are we now
I would say it's a it's a it's almost completely different um I would say there's a lot of enthusiasm I mean a lot
of that the people people that were in that class of 22 23 have now gone on they were the ones that were really in
it during the ideological subversion that happened but they're graduated and so you have a lot of these freshmen and
sophomores coming in that are hyped up about BYU football BYU basketball you
have President Reese there's a huge Spirit enthusiastic Spirit at BYU and that at least from what I've seen maybe
I'm totally out of touch that enthusiasm kind of overshadows um the stuff that's happening even though there's not a lot
of stuff happening right now the enthus enthusiasm kind of overshadows it and T and and and downplays it a little bit
and so I I see a lot of people that really just aren't interested in um in
you know the lgbtq belonging forums and and get togethers that they're having the diversity lectures people aren't
just just aren't as as interested in it as they were maybe in 2021 and I think it's because of this in it could be a
number of factors but I think part of it is it's a new class there's a spirit at BYU that's enthusiastic that BYU is
great and I I don't think they're they're just not as interested in that stuff so it's not just a matter of like all well and Zing it it's is it beyond
that I mean is it is it I mean in my sense CU you know sources and other things it just seems like it's not like
you said it's just not the same as it was it's not there are still issues I get plenty of stories that come in but
it's it's not to the degree that it used to be and I think even the professors have tamed themselves a little bit um
watch what they say and maybe that's in part to our reporting but I would also think it's maybe more in part to well
all the big racial stuff happened two years ago the light the why and the pride colors that happened we're kind of
a little bit past that it's not as as as on the table as it was before um and I
think there there are students that are more well equipped to confront their professors so I think it's a mix of a
lot of things that it's you just don't there's not as many big moments that we we saw back then why do you think the
the students are better equipped to to confront the professors um I would say
social media especially the young men The Freshman men that are coming in um
they just have a different uh feeling than I think from before and I think
it's from memes social media who they're engaging with the podcast that they
listen to you know there's so many people that listen to people like theovon Joe Rogan more than before um
that I think people are kind of changing how they think about politics especially the young men and so you have a lot of
these young men that are coming in that went through covid went through the racialism and stuff in their high school
they're sick of it and they're coming in and and that's what they're their that's their perspective yeah that's interesting because of course you've got
the all the all the results of the election even right I mean you've got the youngest generation it's like what
happened this is the most strange thing because CU it's always what was it maybe about uh 6 years ago 8 years ago I can't
remember they ran a survey at BYU when Bernie Sanders was running okay for
president okay of all the candidates that were running on both the left and on the right and that presidential
election I think it was 2016 Bernie Sanders was number one among BYU students wow yeah Bernie Sanders was
number one right I don't think that would be the same result today not at all and I think uh I mean you already
know this and you talk about this but there's there's a huge divide in the genders You Know M male and female it's
a it's just a massive divide even worse at at BYU so even worse at BYU why is
that I don't know I don't know I don't is it because the men at BYU are a
little bit more conservative than you might find everywhere else most likely and and the women are kind of the same as everywhere else yeah and uh I mean
I'm sure this is the same as everywhere else I think a lot of the women go into the social sciences but uh there's a
particular uh view or perspective in the social sciences at BYU that will definitely Trend you towards you know
differing in in gender gaps yeah and and and woke ideology and other things that are going on there that's really
interesting that's a problem though isn't it oh yeah it's a it's a huge it's a it's a sad problem because it's harder
I mean at the end of the day it's harder to date sure well that's all that's exactly what I was thinking yeah it's harder to date and not that you should
you know select out you know people that maybe don't 100% agree with you my wife for example uh voted for Biden I don't
think she'd like me saying that but she voted for Biden um uh the first in 2020
and I didn't know that and now she's a she's a great conservative wife but um
no I mean I I think there's there's potential in every uh relationship to find middle ground and and Common Ground
on political issues but hey at the end of the day it's harder you know it's just going to be especially now since
the IDE ideological division is so broad that you know if you're on the left yeah
there's there's great people on both sides of the aisle but if you're on the left you're going to have a fundamentally different view of the
world than somebody maybe on the right you know especially in terms of family religion gender the the lgbtq yeah I you
know back in the day uh it was you're talking left and right you're talking about well are you know high or low
estate taxes immigration you know it's like that those are the issues that are going to divide everybody it's
not we thought that was divisive back then it it is not even closed because as
you said it is a world view that that divides you it is how do you see the world
and and how demonized is the other side yeah right it's because you're going to
be uh uh indoctrinated into how demonized even on the right you know you're going to be demonized with how
how the other side thinks and they're they're you know Godless or whatever
else but mhm um I think that the women especially young women are going
to be much more susceptible to a left-leaning woke ideology because of
the issues of compassion and empathy because it usually leads with those things and they're just naturally more
empathetic it's so much easier for them I think to to fall into those things
because it leads with empathy do you see that well that that's what I was thinking about earlier today is I was
thinking about how how the fanaticism is different than it was in 21 or 22 for
example um you know you had the racialism you had the lgbtq explosion and with the lighting of the Y and now
that that's kind of simmered down we've seen um kind of like a fanatical
moderate view where they come in and it's not necessarily that you know we should be PR gay or uh Pro BLM but it's
that we should love one another and that's that's a moderate position it's civility it's empathy it's compassion
and it's harder to combat because it's not it's not screaming at you you have to see through the lines to say okay
what does this really mean and I think in a way that's almost more subversive because not only is it more appealing to
women perhaps but I think it is more appealing uh men are also more likely to maybe fall into that trap of of well I
I'll be civil and compassionate and maybe compromise on this or that yeah which brings us to Rous
Jonathan Rousch who visited last week and and has brought in was brought in uh
uh I I I think it's odd that he's held up on you know for those that don't know
we talked about this in another episode but it's Jonathan Rous is a is a journalist he's been an activist uh um
he's with the Brookings Institute uh big uh advocate for same-sex marriage for forever
decades um but he's kind of been put up as this icon of an
atheist non-believer as an icon of of what he calls civil
theology Civic theology Civic theology yes Civic Theology and
it's that's just really strange to me why why would we be putting him up on a
pedestal as as someone that we would want to follow yeah that's uh you know it reminds me of a story um Elder makoni
um when when he was an apostle um they had seen lower baptism numbers
throughout the church and they were looking at you know all these numbers and makoni started to weep and he says
I've worried that in the last few years as we've changed our message to be more General about Christ that we've
sacrificed the unique message of the restoration and in doing so we become we
we we're seeing these lower numbers we become a weaker a weaker faith in that we're not leaning into our unique we're
not leaning into our particularity and I would say that's kind of what we're doing right now I don't sure Jonathan
Rouch is a leared man and smarter than I am on on many aspects um but I don't see
how we couldn't have heard a better message um that was more in line of our faith with our faith from a latterday
saint scholar and that uh maybe didn't praise us for you know compromise what he saw was a compromise on gay marriage
um yeah that's that's what I see with with him yeah that's an interesting thing I think that's another issue that
as far as I see with messaging to the members is is there is a reduction in
uniqueness yeah uh and there is a reduction in uh um specificity of
Doctrine right especially doctrine of exaltation and uh and
that's you know I I don't know I just think that when when you're when you generalize
things it doesn't become as interesting it's not not as compelling it's not as exciting it's not as
meaningful it's not as enriching uh and therefore not as appealing to someone the justification
of course on the other side is well we're generalizing these things we're bringing in these secular scholars in in
the case of Rous gay secular married to a man you know as secular as as for us
that you could get really um we're bringing these in these people in and were widening the tent to be more
inclusive because to be particular especially about the doctrine of exaltation uh latterday Saint history
Pioneer Heritage the particularity of the latterday saint faith well that is in in itself exclusive because there's
some people that uh don't believe in that that are not of pioneer Faith or of pioneer Heritage and so therefore we
we're too worried about being uncivil exclusive that we're generalizing way
too far whereas we're losing the unique message of the restoration and like you've You' talked about the the
fundamental message of exaltation which is the thread that runs through the entire gospel that's that's what I've
seen yeah and why do you think that is why do you think that happens why do you
think I think we generalize yeah um I mean you're saying to be more you you've
kind of answered it saying that we want to be more inclusive but I mean why does it happen that we feel like we should be
more inclusive instead of writing what we've already got you know there's a difference
between saying we invite all yeah to to come here right and and saying well let
us come over to you I think it's kind of left over from um the fear uh that we
felt you know a few years ago when we we're always on the defense you know with we had to prove that no no no we
actually help the LGBT lgbtq students feel belonged no no no no we have we
have this office of belonging that helps the marginalized and the minority students we're always playing defense
and I think it's just a a left over feeling where we have to
in a way seek affirmation from the secular and other other universities
that that were generalizing things a little bit I mean it happens a lot um on the mission for example I mean there's
there's missionaries that maybe won't start with the message of the restoration and maybe they'll just talk
about baptism and repentance and you know Jesus Christ but they'll they'll delay getting in the mes of the
restoration because they don't want to offend they don't want to exclude they don't want to uh make their their
potential convert feel odd or weird about it I think it's maybe what we're doing here at BYU I don't know yeah yeah
that's interesting what uh what's happening with the office of belonging today it's always interesting you know I
was really covering that very closely as I started to develop and you had you had what you were talking about where there was these outrageous ideas that were
being pushed through uh or wanting they were wanting to push them through um and you had that all kind of tapered
down uh They removed from a lot of those original proposals they never used the word Equity I always thought that was
interesting they well they ended up not ever they just redacted that from everything it was always diversity
inclusion but they wouldn't put equity in there uh I haven't looked at it recently if they've changed any of that
in in in those documents but uh um and then they went with instead of because
it was called I think the diversity and inclusion board or committee committee okay right
as they were putting it together yes that's right and then they ended up with the office of belonging yeah which is
something more along the lines I think of uh Elder christopherson's sure talk and what he was talking about the doctrine of belonging right um where is
that because now you've got Trump who's
you and I don't believe this but you've got uh you know people like a Christopher rufo and others that saying
now what do we do now in a post de EI world and I'm like I don't I don't think we're in a post eii world but but there
are a lot of changes there are a lot of good wins I think uh in getting rid of those things but you've got a lot of universities a lot of states that are
getting rid of everything that has to do with Dei and here we are with the office of belonging which is kind of Dei
adjacent yeah right what do we do with it and and what is its purpose now and how's it going there I honestly don't
think it's that big of a deal um the activities that I see coming out of it are just kind of General
um come and do this with a bunch of other students it's not racially motivated I don't think the the office
of belonging is that big of a deal what I do think has replaced in a sense uh
the office of belonging of how they originally wanted it to be which was more of an activist you know group is
the um the other departments in the universities in the University like the
uh Family Home and social sciences department or the the uh um sociology
department they have their own forums have their own devotionals and have
their own activities not at all related to the office of belonging but that are
specifically for lgbtq students uh just today they had a diversity lecture that
one of our students went to um and so I don't I honestly don't view the office belonging as a threat or a problem in
any way it's the Departments of the other it's it's the offices the other departments is what I'm trying to say
that are having these forums and activities that are really just kind of maybe just fly under the
radar you know what I've always thought is with with all that goes on there why
do they have family Sciences in with all the other social sciences it drives me nuts feel bad for them I feel so bad for
them it's just like well it's not only that you you end up with honestly you end up with some of those you know again
roughly 24 professors that are mostly in that area and they end up teaching
sometimes over in the family sciences and I don't know if you saw but you remember when we broke a couple years ago that one of the professors was
talking about Professor Dr coin was talking about her transgender 8-year-old or whatever in the family Eternal
familyes class that's completely gone now that class is gone that class is gone you can't take the Eternal family
class in a department other than the religious Department really from what I from what I've seen yeah that's that's
helpful yeah that's helpful but I don't you know I don't know put the the family Sciences in the religion department
please seriously you know I know it doesn't look as good maybe for those that are trying to get degrees I guess in in for to go into therapy or whatever
else they want to do but but still it's it's just so conflicting but the Departments are interesting because um
you know one of the things I wanted to do maybe there's something you guys could do um I'd never gotten to it is uh
uh I had some professors at BYU give me the idea of you know maybe you should go through
all of the Departments and because I think each department has to have a mission statement yes that's correct and and
look it and compare all of the mission statements of each of the Departments not only that I I think that's a great
idea because they also have statements on belonging in every respective department and look at what they are because you're going to find out real
quick whoever is heading that department and approving that mission statement to how Dei and woke they are a lot of them
don't even mention Jesus Christ or anything religious whatsoever in any of the mission statements there are right
like okay we want to be Disciples of Christ or anything like that and and the ones that I had looked at others do and
they're actually rather heavy into it where you might not even expect it um
but I think that's an important thing to do and and what would be great is if those were lined up side by side for
parents and prospective students and students just to be able to see it's
like I I just think that there's more of a uh I won't say I come to Jesus moment
but there's a a a there's a more of an onus put on the department heads when when if that is up somewhere
visible for everybody all over to see and compared to the rest of the Departments I think that be yeah that'd be a great idea maybe make a graphic
that shows the differences between the Departments cuz like you know one thing that surprised me is that a lot of at
least our audience at the Krueger Chronicle are parents yes I would say you know like 75% and so it's it's funny
seeing the comments cuz most of them from parents and they've always they've they've continued to ask us hey you know make a list of professors or do this or
that so I think that's a great idea yeah yeah I think that'd be cool I I'm a little concerned about the list of of professors I don't know I've always
thought about that I thought you have to be very cautious I was thinking of putting that up on my website at one point and I'm like I just don't know if
I can do this you know but uh yeah so anyway the other thing is is is that and
I remember in in uh in meeting with one department head once uh a few years ago
they were new into that department um I won't mention who it was but it was
they had come in they they were responsible for a couple of floors of a building and uh they took out all of the
pictures and this was a department where I had had several of the professors contact me saying once they knew I was
covering all these things they're like look this is really strange here this is I don't know what's happening I don't feel the spirit I don't you know this is
not the boo I used to work out five 10 years ago and uh and then a new department head came in they changed the
mission statement made it focused on Christ and and they went through the building and they took down all of the
pictures and they put up pictures of Christ and other things like that throughout the whole thing and it just changed the entire
environment and and focus and and everything else yeah right I'd love to
see that as well you know something that we talked about the mission statements but something else
just comparing those things you know what what what what there are areas and departments in at BYU where it is it's
overtly secular you overtly secular just walk through on the second and third
stories of the jfsb yes just do a just do two laps MH that's all you got to do yeah yeah yeah you'll find out real
quick uh it's a very different environment than what you might expect so so what are you guys working on now
tell me something uh what how people are with you that are working with you right now yeah and uh um you know what what do
you focus on so we have about um 10 dedicated students right now we've we've
had a lot of uh our good students graduate that's been pretty rough um I'm
I'm graduating in April so I'll be gone too but we've had a lot of new recruits you got to get replacement we'll see okay that's that's
most important right um but no we have a good 10 students working on uh with us right now we're working on our huge
project our first ever print edition that we're hoping to to release this summer um or if we could hope um before
school L um so yeah we're we're compiling a lot of Articles um Godwin I
don't know if you know Godwin a latterday sa artist he prominent on Twitter um he's doing our cover image
got cool stuff some artwork so he's a fantastic guy but we're excited about that um just covering the whenever
anything comes up that's what we'll grab on to we got a lot of student requests um a lot of stuff that just happens to
fly under our radar even with our students on campus we just don't catch these things I I didn't even notice this
but until like two days ago that they were doing a whole Forum every Wednesday
for like three weeks on colonialism and I had I I wish I could have attendant so it's stuff like that that just it just
slips you don't see it so most of the time is that kind of what you like to do is find out what's being announced where
should we go and listen to this see what's going on kind of call it out and
and put it out to the parents yeah no that that's what happens uh in fact uh
Dr Hancock sent me a an email this morning with the diversity lecture that was going on and immediately I sent it
to the chat and said hey is anyone on campus between 11: and 12 someone went and recorded it and and we'll see what
what's there but yeah stuff like that happens all the time and uh it's been hard losing students because we don't
have as much people to send as many people to send there so sometimes things actually just go under us um but yeah
that's usually how it works yeah kind of keep your eye out how does BYU follow its Mission you know you see there's an
enthusiasm and which is great that mean things are going better um how does it f
how how does it continue to walk the edge of the sword of bringing in a
secular education Under the Umbrella of of a faithful
perspective in in in a world that's continually more secular and you know
all the professors and everyone else you're so their networks are all other professors
at other universities you know it's very secularized it's it's how do you keep
how do you keep uh you know sharpening the spiritual saw so to speak at at a
place like BYU yeah it's rough um I mean I've been very grateful about what
they've done with the devotionals lately I think they've been great and that's a good way to Rally students on Tuesdays to to get them spiritually hyped up um
instead of just maybe hyped up about BYU's football team MH um but it's rough
I would say it's still irr irregardless of what they're saying in in department meetings about Mission and realignment
um it still at the end of the day the day depend depends on the professor just who you got um I've had fantastic
experiences in the religion department um and some in the political science department but it it just varies from
Professor to professor and it's it's like there's a lot of talk coming from the top which is great and and it
somewhat funnels down into Mission realignment and we're going to have depart departmental meetings and and
talk about how we need to be more Mission oriented and then after that it just kind of falls on deaf ears and
maybe the professors don't actually implement it in their in their classes that's that's what I've seen is that it just hasn't reached the classes
sometimes the uh you know for several years now I've been saying you know they need to use the family proclamation as a
litmus test or part of an interview process and now they're starting to do that looks like it appears to me they're
starting to use that more of as as a as a a filter somewhat um do you think that
helps oh I think that's a it's a good start and it definitely enrages a lot of the people the professors especially who
weren't on board with that I was just in DC for the Washington seminar um with a group of about 30 students I interned at
a pro-life organization um and but every Friday we'd have to go into the Barlo Center
which is BYU Center in Washington DC and have to attend lectures I didn't live there because me and my wife lived
outside of DC but the students that were there that were single lived there together and um we'd have classes every
Friday and we were going to do group presentations on some research that we did during the
semester and uh one of the groups presented on religious on whether religious
universities like BYU and other Christian colleges um have diverse
intellectual diversity compared to secular University and um they thought that BYU didn't do
as well as other secular universities in having a diversity of perspectives of of thought
intellectually and um I immediately thought okay CU they recommended we need
to start hiring more diverse professors including like selecting out some atheists that we could hire it was just
kind of a Elementary you know presentation from these guys anyways I
asked a question cuz I I immediately caught on and I said so BYU for example has now required that you have if you're
a professor to have an an active Temple recommend what would you think about that and the whole group said yeah we
don't we don't like that and I I in a way I'm glad that they're upfront
about it because I assume that there's a lot of professors that are feeling the same way and I hope they do feel the same way that hey yeah we're we don't
like that and I hope they're they're open about that that they don't like it because if we're going to set ourselves apart I think we need to keep doing
stuff like that and need to find those people who or at least you know talk or or consult with those people that are
vehement or who do not like that we're you know requiring that or the the family proclamation for example yeah
well it definitely sets you apart I mean if there's one thing that would that you know okay two things as you bring that
up that would set you apart and be a litmus test for the type of professors
you would expect to have at BYU is would be a temple recommend and and your answer on a family proclamation yeah
right it it is Central to everything in the division that we see politically and
and uh um in a world view um out in our culture right now so all right Jacob
really appreciate you coming on uh what's your plans going forward yeah I'm graduating in April and uh looking to
hear back from some graduate schools to uh pursue a PhD awesome wish you the best thank you Greg thank you for on