Cwic Show- LDS Author, Janette Rallison

- What does it take to be a successful author? Janette Rallison outlines her path to selling over 1,000,000 books

- When fiction is used as truth - Male readers vs. female readers

- The rarity of 'clean' books for teenagers and young adults

- Women and priesthood among Latter-Day-Saints

 

Janette's Website- http://www.janetterallison.com 

 

Janette's Books on Amazon-  https://amzn.to/2wsXT24 

 

Podcast Links:

Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cwic-media/id1428167000

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3BNjs4EJqo0iK4LURdTPDb  

 

 

 LDS Mormon

 

from what I understand you said you've

sold over a million copies of books how

many books I'm working on number 30

right now so how long have you been an

author then I was published 23 years ago

okay seen a lot of changes in the

publishing industry like what oh well

with the ebooks when I first published

there was no email and the

internet really wasn't much of a thing

so I had no way to connect with other

authors I didn't know now it's so easy

and there's so much information but um

back when I was starting you know you

had to go to the library and check out a

book and look at literary agents I mean

there was got to go to the mailbox with

your manuscripts I mean that could post

up a lot more footwork yeah so so tell

me about that little bit I had in in

preparation for this I'd kind of gone

online and looked you up and so it looks

like you are pretty involved with other

authors and in fact you talked about a

book club and so you're tell me about

that a little bit what is that what does

that do for you

and what does it do for them and in

working with the other authors oh well

you know I mean first of all having

critique and feedback is really nice

because you know when I first started I

was making my husband read my stuff and

his response was always it's good I

liked it which is probably better for

your marriage but not very helpful as an

usher so now what that would that have

been an issue if he was pretty critical

of it could have been could have been

man fortunately he's always been very

supportive but you know now there's

it's so easy to join writers groups and

there's critique groups and there's I

mean if you have if you want to learn

about deep point of view you just Google

deep point of view and there's some

author out there there's you know many

authors there have been talking about it

on their blogs and so it's just so

much easier to get information so

does that information and going in and

you know saying being able to go

online and pull that information up how

much does that help you as an author so

much I mean what for research my first

book and this was a book that took place

in my old hometown it was I mean

there was nothing no fantasy or sci-fi

element I mean

just a normal book but still there were

certain research things that I needed

like for example I had that character

who was into bombs and so I I had heard

that a fly throws up what it lands on

the counter and I wanted him to say

something about that but it's very hard

to find books in the library about fly

vomiting habits so really for that when

I had to I called ASU the entomology

department and you know finally got

ahold but I remember it took me two

weeks just to find these little details

I need to fill in and now quick search

oh so you know YouTube if you if you

need any sort of information like how

lot like one of the things I looked at

was I have characters going in the 3rd

Street Tunnel Bridge in DC and I needed

to know how long it was I couldn't find

that but there's peep there's videos of

people going through that tunnel so I

could just count off the seconds and wow

how long my characters are in there for

so how about the how about the way you

write though I mean is that you talk

about what was the point brought up deep

the point of view or these other

literary tools does that help a lot I

mean it just did does it hasn't

changed the way that you write compared

to 23 years ago not as much I mean I

know more but I that I also have like 40

writing books I kind of heard them it's

maybe a problem I I keep buying them

even though I haven't read all the ones

they have so there's a lot of

information out there in physical form

but it I mean it is easier to just check

on that specific item if you need it but

I mean if partially also with my you

know writer friends there'll be some

times where I'm having a problem with a

sentence or a paragraph and I'll say

this just doesn't work and I text it to

them and say okay what's wrong with this

house how do I need to fix this and you

know that's really nice to get instant

feedback oh one of the things Facebook

is great for is if you need to find out

where to hide a body you printed

Facebook interest where would you hide a

body and then you worry about your

friends because so many of them have

apparently thought

right they've got some pretty good ideas

yeah so yeah you've got you've got an

instant survey yes what also there I

mean there's so many times you don't

know anyone who with the information but

somebody else does I I asked once where

the flagpole was I think was on Capitol

Hill and somebody almost immediately

sent me a picture of themselves in front

of Capitol Hill with mindful in the in

the back so I mean it's so nice to get

that that is I know I'm on some NSA FBI

listen stuff because yeah you're also

goggling you know the blueprints for the

White House and body piercing armor

right right explosive yes you know that

kind of thing so yeah serial killers and

authors we have interesting search

history but what is for those of us

who are not authors you when you sent

you when you write something and then

you send it off to someone text it to

them whatever and say this isn't working

what does that mean it's not

working oh well a lot of times you know

just it'll seem clunky or like one of

the things I've started develop some pet

peeves as a writer

sure and so one of them is using the

word as to show that things are

happening simultaneously because

sometimes you need to use that but so

many new authors way over do it where

you'll have five of those on the first

page and it starts to just you know like

I don't know make you twitch sure so I

mean the last one I did was okay this

you know this I done this with ads and I

but I don't know how to change it but

it's bothering me and if it's you know

and my friends are like oh yes yes

that's all wrong and you know sometimes

you just have to step back or there'll

be a lot of times worth one beta reader

will say I didn't like this sentence and

I think it's fine

so then I asked other people you know

what

yeah it's that survey again sentence

okay or not and yeah and people have

very strong opinions on that on Facebook

also surprisingly I know to me what's

good and what's not yeah yeah you know

if you use too many adjectives or

adverbs though they'll tell you brutally

you know i it's so to me as I look I've

actually tried to write before it's not

easy it is really hard because it's

taxing I don't know if you feel that way

if it just kind of flows for you but

it's really taxing because you are

well you're putting yourself out there

number one you want to put out something

good and it's a very taxing thing

to go in and mentally especially you're

writing fiction and put something

together that like you say works I had

I've got a one book that I started with

it's fiction several years ago and I

still have gotten Icahn past the opening

scene and every couple years I'll go

back and I'll rewrite it because I see

that there's a lot of problems with it

but that's is it is it do you think that

there is if someone was talented like

yourself as an author why is that easier

for somebody to do than somebody else

it's private so I talent ninety percent

practice you know it's just rewriting it

and rewriting it and learning more about

them because there aren't any

fortunately and it's this way

whether you're doing cake decorating or

interior decorating or there's rules of

you know this these are things you

should follow to make things work and

these are things you shouldn't do so the

more of those you learn the more time

you save yourself because every story is

new and different it is sort of like

you're reinventing the wheel every

single time fortunately there are some

you know like point of view there's

a rule about you stay in one person's

head per scene or chapter and so if

you're jumping back and forth and

between characters heads you will you

know get rejected from the agents and

editors and readers a lot of times too

because that's just usually

sloppy writing so yeah I mean once you

learn that then you're you know you

don't have to fix that anymore because

you I mean so learning that rules helps

but at the same time it's you know for

those joyous days when you didn't know

what you were doing wrong now you just

wrote I thought it was great right

because that's kind of the idea I think

a lot of people might have right it's

like this creative writing right I'm

just gonna write this and I've

got a great idea for a story and but it

is it's tough I mean it's taxing to go

through a home now so you've read you're

in your 30th book and you said Helen 23

years ago so over a book a year and

I noticed that you have different pen

names yes so what is that about

well um it's a marketing thing um

Jeannette where Allison mostly writes

young adult books romantic comedies

sci-fi no wait wait my side faces under

siege a hill but it's mostly romantic

comedies of some sort young adult and

then CR St. James the publisher didn't

want Ciara sometimes that's that was an

LDS romance writing me - I haven't used

that name in years but they didn't want

you know they thought of people knew

Jeannette Rallison books they would just

assume them those would be for just you

know 14 year olds and then so yeah they

want you to have a different name for

different genres so I'm CJ Hill the

publisher wanted me to appeal to boys

and hmm as we all know at least the

publishing world those that boys won't

pick up a female author especially if

her books are next to sparkly fairy

books mm-hmm and you know pink

covers so I for those action-adventure

sort of books

I have that pen name and then they put

lots of fire and blackness on the

drivers weapons things right yes that's

the reason so I heard a story as is it

true that JK Rowling did not publish it

at first under her own name or as

always JK that's what I was because

Harry Potter that's a boy

main-care sure so again no I think no

boys would read that right right I don't

even know what her J stands for you know

it's Jo yeah I think yeah yeah so she

does that same reason right she's to

peel the boys they don't whatever reason

they don't want to read up a female

author so yeah it well and it is kind of

an industry thing that girls will read

books by male authors but hmm boys what

do you think that is oh you got boys and

girls kids well I mean it there's

there's different reasons and part of it

is just our society and you know that

you have to look at manly you know but

part of it is just you know I remember

my son I remember though again those

early naive days where you think that

you're going to be that that parent who

encourages all sorts of we're not gonna

have stereotypical toys well just let

them choose their you know but my son

very quickly let me realize why those

stereotypes exist because he only wanted

sports and weapons and he told me when

he was about 13 because I kept on

bringing him home books and he finally

told me unless there's a weapon on the

cover I don't want to read it okay so

yeah different interests yes okay now

you've got one thing that you do is you

write clean literature right and so

there's been times where it's been a few

times very few times where I've actually

gone with my wife to a Barnes & Noble

when my daughters were young and she go

to the young adult section and go

through it and so I would be there

it's the only reason I would ever go

through the young adult section but

I'm walking through and looking through

that I couldn't believe what I saw I

mean honestly the even on the cover some

of the things that you see very

surprised what was this inside yeah

that's interesting I mean

interesting I don't know it but you know

because it really does cater to right

there you're looking 12 to 15 years old

maybe somewhere in there primarily they

they say I mean it really also depends

on the trends the kids stop reading

young adult books when they're about 16

of course then you had with Twilight and

Hunger Games you had all sorts of adults

reading those books so it's not a hard

and fast rule but yes so we took an

adult really only most to 16 and the

very very adult you know situations from

the books are just I mean I think it's a

responsible I was shocked honestly

because I did open up some of the books

and kind of look through it I couldn't

believe what they were writing in there

yeah when I was young I would go to the

library by myself

and just randomly pick books and there

were only a couple of times that I got

it books that I thought were

inappropriate now it's it switched you

you have to look and know which

authors are the clean ones or you're

going to get and how many of those

authors are there not very many sorts of

minority yeah definitely so the other

books are selling yes surprises because

that you look at what's on TV

yeah movies and it's pretty hard to

find something that you can you know

wholeheartedly recommend to your

minister's family you know what I mean

right

it's always like well this is a really

good series but there's those few parts

you know I always feel like I have to

warn people whenever I recommend

anything because it's just hard to find

something that's just completely family

friendly so it'd be pretty important to

warn new parents of young girls that

their this is out there because their

friends are gonna be reading that those

kind of books and they might have them

at school and they see him I say hey mom

I want to get this book and

and it's well in that I think the danger

with especially with where sexuality is

concerned is that it's really portrayed

as normal and safe I feel like which no

concerts done that is not it's not the

case exciting and romantic and

there's no consequences and that guy's

gonna be around for you know I mean

we're in real life I you know those

girls and boys they break up so quickly

and you know and I understand isn't

an author you don't want to write a

romance with and then he was gone two

weeks later you know of course it's

going to be true and enduring love when

you're 13 you want the ideal right right

but um but yeah I just feel like we

have to be careful because we don't want

to be encouraging behavior that's gonna

be damaging to young people that's gonna

have long-lasting consequences in their

life you know and met and I've said

this on you know been on groups with

other young adult authors who were not

LDS and you know I said something once

about they were they were talking about

sex scenes and I said you know with all

of the STDs and teen pregnancies you

know I think it's irresponsible to put

it's sex scenes and books like you know

to encourage that and I you know the

claws came out which is amazing and

think if you would have gone to a

spirituality argument ya know it would

have been even worse thing about yeah

got it all I was just saying you know

one in six people has herpes there's no

cure for that and you're encouraging

she's do not protect that because no

times authors will throw that I don't

know if this is where you want you know

that's fine that's this that's reality

is the reality that they're facing

though you know and that's what

they were the girls I mean they're gonna

have these issues if they're not well I

feel like in our society we kind of hide

those issues we don't really talk about

messy yeah it's not the ideal and you

know people need to know the dangers

that are out there

so in these groups that you have so a

lot of times you are with other young

adult writers and you might bring

something like that up but there there's

no issue for them with it at all

no I think they're like one of

the authors said to me I wouldn't buy a

pair of shoes without trying it on so I

certainly would not be in a relationship

without sex okay that's one argument for

someone who's 25 I should just remain

quiet so now you probably then you've

had over a million people buy your books

so and you've got a website and is that

Janette Rallison Tom okay you've

probably gotten a lot of feedback right

from parents and from readers from

young adults mostly girls I'm guessing

yeah okay so there's probably some

positive feedback that comes from them

about writing cleaning about 50%

of my emails are people saying thank you

for writing and clean writing you know

so yeah I mean that's really nice

on the other kind of like okay now I

can't ever step over that right look at

you yeah I had a conference once I mom

say to me you know I just so appreciate

your books because I have a

twelve-year-old daughter and I can just

hand them to her without reading them

and I kind of was like wait no don't

because I don't I don't know what her

standards were exactly I would hate to

feel responsible if I yes dinner sit

when every everybody's different

one twelve-year-old could be very

different from another twelve-year-old

and what they're able to read and

digest sense so you know and that

with that feedback I mean I'm guessing

that's I just going back to my Barnes &

Noble experience I think that I don't

think I found I mean my wife had to show

me what author's effect I think with her

I think we saw your book on there one of

your books but we she had to go say okay

I know that one and I know this one is

okay but it was I mean honestly

when we say minority it seems to me like

it's maybe like 5% yeah

even that would have been at least for

us probably acceptable to have a 13 or

14 year old girl reading it would be

interesting to see I'm sure somebody has

done then those numbers of you

know what percent don't have drugs or

sex or swearing or you know that kind of

stuff do you find it hard to write

without inserting any of that sorry it

sounds like you're keeping that in mind

a lot it depends I mean there's some

times when there are characters who

would swear mm-hmm and you it's very

hard it's not there to go okay what do I

do

let's make this dialogue realistic when

I know this person would be swearing but

I know my readers don't want to hear that

so I mean usually I just say they you

know they cursed her you know let out a

stream of curses or something like that

but and usually that's okay but every

once in a while you're like ah you know

that makes this dialogue hard because

you know but it's you know it is what it

is yeah but you feel you but so that so

as you've built this up and you have all

of these readers and you come out with

another book right now there's gonna be

obviously that expectation that you

write a specific kind of book and I'm

guessing you feel that then as you as

you write hi this is it the one I'm

working on right now it's number five of

a series and it's the last book which I

learned when you write a series you get

people I mean the day after the book

comes out they're asking you when the

next book

is coming out and but I put something

on Facebook about because one of my

author friends said you have to you have

to kill some characters off in this book

because here's this big fight and it's

climax it will seem like it wasn't that

hard if nobody dies and so but I hate

books where authors just sort of seemed

to kill off characters for no apparent

reason

so I asked on Facebook and I was so

surprised that the amount of passion of

no don't you dare kill characters and

don't kill off this character especially

and it was the only people who

wanted me to kill off characters were

other writers everybody else it's like

no so ok ever saw the movie misery

who read the book of misery oh I heard

about that's a James Caan oh yeah yes

yes it's Stephen King yeah yeah where

where he gets into an auto accident she

drags him into her home and keeps him in

there and she's a fan of him and he

basically has to write his next book

based on what she was kind of crazy yes

that's the fan where you're uh have you

been a member of the church your whole

life or whole life so where'd you grow

up

Pullman Washington in Pullman Washington

where is that that is it's is on the

eastern side I okay I should know this I

mean I do I could point front of map

it's PI Idaho it's not yeah yeah so you

grew up in Pullman and is that a college

town yeah really

okay small town and what did he teach

Business Administration so what started

in you that made you start thinking okay

I want to I want to be an author why did

you think that was a kid or yeah I'm my

mom um well she died when I was six but

she liked writing and I remember seeing

her type you know things and knew that

she wanted to be a writer so I think I

was

thought that that was a normal

profession as opposed to a really

difficult way to torture yourself but um

so yeah I've just always liked writing

and you know I but I liked a lot of

things and so but I think it was yeah I

mean you get you get help

spiritually to go the direction that

you you're supposed to go and I think

that was the case for me I actually I

this is a story that sounds like an

ensign article but it actually really

happened where I was thinking about

writing and I think I'd written some

picture book manuscripts and sent them

out and you know 20 different publishers

got back I swear 25 rejection letters I

felt like they were you know

preemptively sending them to me and I

remember thinking you know maybe this

isn't for me I you know I like just I

was a dancer in high school but I didn't

turn become a professional dancer I love

drama but I didn't try and become a

professional actress so maybe this is

just one of those things that I like as

a hobby but I'm never gonna do anything

with it and I was walking to the mailbox

and I was praying you know let me know

whether this is something I'm really

supposed to do or not and I go to the

mailbox and I open it and there's a

letter from the new era which was

strange because I only had preschooler

and I opened it up and they say they

have accepted my article which was

strange because I didn't send them one

and I just sort of stared at that and

then I realized my dad I had I had

written a story about my dad and I

vaguely remembered him saying he was

gonna send it to the new merit but you

know of course I didn't think anything

you know so here and that was just this

this sort of message to me like yeah

this is something that you're supposed

to do you're supposed to pursue so I I

feel like we're very blessed in that we

can and we can get help and direction

knowing what we're supposed to do with

our life and which talents were supposed

to develop and you know and maybe

it's not I mean not everybody has to do

it as a profession but

you know being creative as part of our

spiritual DNA so it's just something

we're supposed to do in some but some of

us might have a little more of that DNA

of another I don't have a whole lot of

that DNA sometimes I feel like I can tap

into it I you know I had a strangest

thing I want to I I'm a serial

entrepreneur and any when I was young I

built with a friend we built a small

little software package well I don't I'm

not a programmer I don't think about it

it's had an idea and that eventually led

me into running a web development firm

and it got pretty big you know we got

pretty big with it but I ended up like

art directing some of this stuff and I

thought this isn't me at all but I could

feel like okay I actually I'm tapping

into something that might be there and

essays and in college and in high school

they're terrible stories I write

terrible stories but well maybe I do

have a little bit of creativity there

somewhere if you're being an

entrepreneur then that takes creativity

I mean I guess so we kind of you know

we kind of have these ideas of talents

is like singing and playing the piano

and but you know it's there's so many

different ways to be creative I we

both know a handyman tailor who he is

this artist with caulking you know and

and painting and tile and that is

his creative outlets and I'm really

glad he likes that because I don't want

to caulk but you know it's so it's

it's good that we all have different

areas that we have and yeah and

entrepreneurs that sounds like a scary

things do but you know that's maybe how

you use your creativity now so you

you are a dancer in high school yeah and

you did what was the other thing you

said you did a drama

okay so drama and dancing and writing so

those are all artistic so you're

very you lean toward artistic yeah oh

well I guess your husband's our rocket

yes so how did that happen

just Yang and yang yes I think you know

it's really funny I was talking to

online writers

and I'm saying something about my

husband being you know Dilbert you know

math mm-hmm math man and every single

one of them was like me too I married an

accountant I am married and it's so it's

really interesting that so many artistic

at least writers marry men that are very

logical at math and maybe we need that

so we don't starve to death

someone has to remember what day to take

out the garbage right now yeah it's yeah

and I and I'm sure it's you know with

designing rockets you have to have

creativity to you just have to have math

along with a little math and free time

and patience and things that I don't

have so 30 bucks and you have five kids

right I was pregnant with twins when I

got my first contract right now a twin

so how do you manage that right is you

you're have you had a full-time job

outside of that and ever okay so you've

got family which is a full-time job and

writing yeah and I'm not a fast writer

either I mean I have friends that can

that have a bunch of kids and they have

two hours and you know I could just do

ten pages in two hours whereas for me

ten pages takes about 10 hours so I'm

not fast but um but fortunately I've

been able to cut things out of my life

you know where I you know don't ask me

how many times I cleaned my fridge

during the last 23 years or mopped the

floor but yeah you just it's worth

writing if you can write a couple of

pages a day you you know that's seven

hundred and thirty pages right at the

end of the year so you can write in just

the little chunks and for a lot of years

that's what I was doing it's nice

now that I can write in bigger chunks

but you know the fine thing is I only

have one child still left at home but

you're still just as a parent

you know they leave home but they

still need you for your stuff

yes it's so we're empty nesters now and

it's still busy yeah it's still

busy yeah so in some ways that may be

the responsibility grows even a little

bit more right now so babies and

grandkids yeah yeah we're not there yet

but you are so stories this I'm

fascinated with stories and most of them

like I for example in the scriptures

even right I love all the stories the

church history and the stories in

the Old Testament and the New Testament

I remember once a I had a friend who was

teaching Sunday school one day and he

said he brought this up he said he said

now is something to the effect of is

truth fiction or nonfiction and I

thought well obviously it's nonfiction

I mean it's truth right and then he

proceeded to go in and say well how did

Jesus teach right and it's taught he

taught through parables right what he

thought he taught through stories that

maybe he's drawing from other stories or

maybe he's drawing from things he's seen

or but they're stories mostly right

there they're stories that are not

necessarily about anybody specific and

and so he's teaching through fiction and

he's teaching truth through fiction and

that really changed my mind because I'm

not a fiction person at all

you know I'd never I've always been I

think your husband is a little the same

way but I don't I don't here's my role I

I will read nonfiction and I read a lot

of nonfiction now with podcasts and

audible I'll listen to fiction so it's

kind of like I almost need a spoon fed

to me so I do now listen to a lot more

fiction than I used to I probably

honestly Jeanette I probably I think I

probably went

fifteen or twenty years without reading

a fiction book that's so boring that's

so boring it is it's pretty interesting

now I mean sometimes I read history and

I think why do we do fiction because

there's nothing we could come up with

that you know there's no dystopian x'

that are worse than world war two and

what do I mean yeah but no stories

where as people we're hardwired for

stories

I mean we craved them we need them we

paid money to hear other people's

very full story you know you know you

like that we're gonna go watch about

superheroes and talking animals and what

you know whatever but just because we

crave stories so much so there's

something to fiction but I think also we

have to choose our fiction wisely make

sure it is telling us truths you know

yeah that's a good point so I so you can

write fiction that doesn't tell you very

good truths or fun right you know yeah

this man who goes around killing people

without any consequence or like mental

disturbance engine yeah

sleeping with women there's no

consequences for anything no that's

that's very true that's very true so I

read somewhere I went well not when I

started writing this book which I am

still at the opening scene on I had

bought a software package and it kind of

goes through it what they had explained

to me was that it's a lot what directors

use or screenplay writers

screenwriters were you would use and I'm

trying to remember how many there are

but basically is like these 24 elements

or there can be 24 different types of

stories that can happen and it

actually runs you through the grid of

where is the story gonna go you know and

there's this option and this option you

have tragedy you have conflict you have

winning or success and failure and

but it runs it kind of through that is

that do you when you

right after 30 books our eyes a lot of

that the same do you feel it's just

you're telling it about a different

person oh that's a good question

um there's well there's I mean there's

some things that are that are gonna be

the same I mean every

story is about a character who has a

problem and the stories about their goal

to overcome the problem whether that's

Cinderella and her problem of being

stuck with horrible family or Frodo who

needs to get rid of a ring you know they

had a problem so they have goals and

they have obstacles and it's not easy

because then it would be very short

boring book so they're gonna run into

probably antagonists at agonist is

usually a person but it can be nature

or whatever it's just something that's

opposing the main characters goals and

then there's a consequence of failure

there's something bad happens if the

character doesn't reach their goal

because if they're if nothing bad

happened to Frodo if you kept the ring

then why do we care whether you know

what happens to it so um so yeah I mean

so those elements always have to be the

story the journey where is this sense

right there you're bringing the reader

along the journey of the conflict right

the prize and it is it is sort of a

weird thing that's we want to read about

people who have horrible problems that

we would never want to experience in our

real life like oh it was great you know

they're chased by those Wraith II scary

people or monkeys with wings you know

thus begins Jeanette's lifelong

hatred of chimpanzees from Dorothea

Missouri device but yeah I white you

know I mean I guess it's a safe way to

UM to experience conflict and know that

it will come out or at least hope that

will come out positively man I always

feel really cheated when I read a book

and then it ends badly

you know Disney you're because the whole

time you're going well how is this gonna

work out how are they gonna be able to

pull this off and then they don't and

you're just like what so mad at that

author now I've invested all this time

into this yeah because we want to hear

about people overcoming their problems

and solving their problems and

because I think that that gives us hope

that we can overcome those problems in

our in our own life you know but there's

you think that has something to do with

would that have something to do with if

as an author if you're able to bring a

reader through the story where they you

feel attached to that somehow they're

going to have a success that would that

would be something that would be a

successful story and that the readers

would want to read yeah that there's

some hope you know even if the character

does not get what they want because you

know characters don't always have to

achieve their goals but they've

learned something they there's some hope

there's growth there's weight which I

mean that is that is that mirrors our

own lives you know because a lot of

times we don't get what we wanted but we

look back on our trials and realize oh

how much I've grown you know so yeah

it's and I know with the Scriptures you

know Greg years you're always likening

those to Christ and yeah and I think

I think a lot of times fiction is that

that same journey of obstacles and

antagonists

you know which the prophets and Christ

they face that again and again you know

so at Joseph Campbell had the cure with

a thousand faces and somebody told me

once I wish I could remember it was that

that you know those are all just types

of Christ and ideal hero yeah not really

but you know as I've gotten older

and studied that hero's journey more I'm

like yeah I can see why people say

that there's no type of Christ because

he was that ultimate hero you know that

face everything yeah I was able to

overcome yeah the ideal here on that

so I it's interesting too because in

actually in the scriptures a lot of it

is tragedy right I mean we read stories

in there where even you know in you have

you know of course the story of like

Abraham ultimately their success

right but it's after unbelievable

turmoil but like in the Book of Mormon

mostly that's tragedy yeah right they

just can't seem to get it right and they

keep falling away and in the end they're

done you're wiped out you know and so in

the end it's a tragedy but I

suppose there's lessons yeah

from tragedies right yeah definitely say

so there's we also get the warnings

along with that you know these are not

good things to don't do those things in

your real life yeah yeah there yep there

and well and even you know you look at

Abraham well and you know or Jacob I

mean a lot of them when you feel like

your kids are fighting in your family

life is you know not less than ideal

then you just you look well you know

Adam and Eve had one of their sons kill

another one and yeah that's not

good yeah yeah so yeah we learned from

the Scriptures that life is not easy for

anybody even for the prophets right very

true you had I'd gone through and looked

online and you had a blog post on women

in the priesthood I think that looking

at the timeframe on that but I think

that was about the time of the

ordained witness ordain women yeah

ordain women tightening was going really

strong and I just kept on thinking why

why do you would like you're asking for

more work stop it so it's a pretty

clever post that you had I think that's

on your website yeah it's uh it's pretty

clever the way you wrote it is that what

got you going on that to write that I

mean why didn't you feel like you wanted

to write something about ink because I

felt like on one hand I knew where they

were coming from because growing up I

sort of had some of those same

feelings I remember feeling like well

you know it's sort of unfair that men

get the priesthood women don't and you

know it's sort of unfair that women are

expected to be mothers and specifically

stay-at-home mothers where fathers get

to be fathers and then also have careers

so I

sorry you know when I would hear people

saying I mean like my mother told me

well God had to give them in the

priesthood because he'd given women the

power of creation and so he had to give

them something he gave the best gift to

the women and I remember kind of feeling

like that was maybe a little patronizing

and you know but then when I be I mean

that completely changed when I had a

baby and then suddenly I was like no

they're you know almost people who said

that motherhood is the most important

career they were right you know this is

and I didn't want to go to have a career

I wanted to stay home and raise my

daughter and I thought wow women really

are we do have the best the best

situation here and I feel you know

and I you know I'm all for equality for

women but I feel like our society's

going about it in the wrong way we're

devaluing women's traditional role of

being that mother and that homemaker and

saying that's not an important role when

really what we should say is that's the

most important role that's the most

important thing anybody does in our

society is be a parent

unfortunately somebody has to you know

make the money and you know so that's

that's I'm totally fine with women

getting the best gig there you know and

I guess the surprising thing is that

nobody there was there was many comments

on that post but nobody was like you

know what you're kind of insulting me

but because men are maybe better at

dealing with jobs than women can be

sometimes but um but yeah I just kind of

told this little story of uh you know

women in the pre-existence after the

council in heaven you know talking about

talking to God about all the

responsibilities and saying you know

what I think we need we're gonna need

lots of help and God says to them well

you know the men will help you if you

ask and the women say you are not so

sure about that

we know men and they're already talking

about sitting around watching football

and how about you give them jobs and

tell them that only they can do those

jobs and God says well don't you think

they'll

this if they have all these extra

responsibilities and meetings and then

we tell them that only they can do them

and the women say well maybe if you give

them important sounding names like

Bishop and stake presidents then

they'll be okay with that and you know

so anyway that how I look at it is you

know I'm really glad when church engines

and I get to go home and I know the

bishopric it stamps a lot of times as my

my husband has been you know clerk of a

bunch of times and so he's staying there

too and I'm really happy that we

don't have that responsibility and then

to hear women say like wait no this is

unfair

I it's like the priesthood is all about

service and blessing other people's

lives so if you don't feel like you have

enough service and blessing people's

lives there's nothing to stop you from

going and doing that but I'm

probably one glad that see this sounds

it sounds like I'm bashing them when I

say this but I'm glad that um that we've

told men know these are your

responsibilities and you have to do them

because I worry that men wouldn't step

up to the plate otherwise and see oh

there's probably some truth I mean I've

seen in other churches where they've

complained about you know how do you get

the men to do so much in your church

because the women are carrying a lot

of the load in there's some truth I

think you know I think that you know

and being stereotypical here I suppose

but I think practical also I think that

women are stronger social beings and

and so you know they're the glue to

everything and they kind of make things

happen with people and so it's a

lot easier for a guy not to get involved

yeah I think than it is for a woman it's

fascinating to me to watch what's

happening in society right now with the

change of roles with men and women and

kind of where it's going I have my

own theories on this but it seems like

it's a pattern that happens a lot in

society and not just ours but in

previous society even anciently and I

think there's kind of a narrative that's

out there that okay kind of women have

been more oppressed and it's been a

man's world which is partially true but

I think that as you get further

into a more sophisticated society you

know Sophia it's a woman it's you

you move into a place where there's less

need for protection there's no need for

how are we gonna eat today there's less

of a need for manual labor and so

you move more into a place where

women kind of rise to the top a little

bit more I think it happened in Rome I

think it happens in societies as they

get into that that kind of uber uber

sophisticated place where there is not

as much of a threat and I think that's

happening now with us and then with

technology obviously I mean it's just

all this change in technology that's

happened from the domestic side of

things that can make things much easier

and others not as much of a demand

at home with certain things honestly

with the pill has made a huge huge

change and were certain responsibilities

just think in the last you know 200

years how much society has changed I was

I went through cohorts and one of the

things that they emphasized was there

was there was always something to do and

you had better do it because if you

didn't you might die and I thought about

that like how different our lives are

now where we don't we don't have to

worry about if I don't get those crops

planted I'm gonna die and it's so it's

great that it's up it's opened up all of

these opportunities for us to be writers

and be artists and do all of these

things that you know in societies these

people probably didn't have the

opportunities that we have because they

were so busy just trying to

yes but I I just feel like and it's

great that we can do all these things

but we need to remember that that being

a parent is the most important that's

you know that's the basic most

fundamental important thing in our

society and I worry that our society has

this attitude of I mean I've seen it

from people of sort of like to women say

we know why would you be a stay-at-home

mom you know that's like drudgery you

paste you pay somebody to do that like

you would manual labor and just that

attitude is really frightening because

it's like no you know that's our

most important role in society we

shouldn't look at that in the same way

as like washing dishes and you know yeah

no matter is what happens to those

little children it matters if we have

children well doesn't that it seems to

me that that's it's a it's a reflection

on yourself as to what value you have in

other words you were a kid at one point

right you were a kid and you were

important and you're still important and

maybe I'm one of the few people in my

generation my mother was sick from the

time I was two so I was put off in in

daycare and I remember that and I

remember that you know that was a

different feeling that was a feeling of

you were a group go play don't bother

the adults as opposed to being loved and

nurtured and really valued I mean it

wasn't that anything bad happened to me

in daycare but it was just a very

different environment than that kind of

loving home where mom is sitting you

down and reading a book to you and just

talking to you when I'm when so I know

that's probably partially where my

feelings come on that issue I'm sure

there's you got a different experience

than those around you did you feel like

an outsider I yeah yeah I guess yeah a

little bit I did hmm you know I didn't

feel as secure in those day care

settings and you grew up in an LDS

environment yeah my parents world yes

yeah and so your friends probably had

stay-at-home moms yeah so it was

different do you see

roles in the church for men and women

changing that's an interesting question

I mean I you know when I always I always

feel like you know this is another

another thing that I you know people

always have this idea about well you're

in this patriarchy of Mormonism when the

women are oppressed and I think no you

know you obviously have never you know

and of course there's always there's

always guys who are jerks in any culture

and there's a you know and there's

always up even in a sort of more

oppressive cultures there's always men

who are gonna love their mothers and

wives and daughters and you know but

I think our society because we teach the

men that these are children of you know

these are daughters of God and they have

value and there's no double standards

and we're trying to teach both the young

men and the young women to reach their

potential to strive to be better to

think of the future you know we're

trying to instill these good values in

them and I think where else do you you

know find that not you know not in the

drinking sleeping around drug culture

Thanks that's out there that's not

valuing those young women like we're

trying to teach our young men to do you

know so I feel like it's 180 degrees

opposite of what a lot of people think

it is that they see women is oppressed

and instead I feel like no you know

we're valued here it's okay

sometimes I'll see being that I've been

online a lot more lately with the other

podcast I see these comments sometimes

like I'll go through and I'll look at

some comments from women who have left

the church and the word that they love

to use is emancipated you know they're

emancipated from like you said kind of

like this patriarchy or something you

know and it's hard for me to say

something to them because I'm a guy and

what are they going to say about you

know I coming from me I don't know that

has a whole lot of value of I don't get

it you know I guess I don't I don't

understand where you're coming from and

I you know I've heard stories from women

too that you know this bishop said this

or this and I mean

may have happened that in my own

experience the men in the church have

not been that way at all they've been

they've treated me like I was

important like my thoughts were

important I mean there's nothing

to emancipate me from you know all right

I don't think that there's you know

there's a better anything out there well

I agree you know I'm a guy so I don't

know voice exactly

so anyway well thank you for coming on

and spending some time with me on

this Jeanette Allison calm everything go

and I'm can they go to Amazon and even

go to Amazon to find your books on there

and well everybody go out and buy your

books appreciate it thank you