Cwic Show- HOPE And How To Live With It

What is Hope? How do you develop it and why do we need it? Also, how does it fit in the Attributal Triad of 'Faith, Hope & Charity'? I talk about these questions and really try to get at the heart of HOPE in a conversation with Award-Winning author and speaker, Heidi Tucker. Heidi has focused her writing on hope. She pulls from her own experience and struggles and gives stories from her books of others that have faced immense hardship and most importantly, she gives solutions on how to move through those struggles.



LDS Mormon Faith Hope and Charity


what changed my world and rewired me

completely rewired me


so Heidi I'm kind of excited about this

subject it's something actually that

I've studied quite a bit one thing I

have is a series that I started over a

year ago and didn't complete yet but

I've I started off with a faith hope and

charity series and so I did faith and I

haven't moved on since then

so this is this is something that can

kind of maybe fill that gap a little bit

for us for awhile you're the right

person to talk to about this but I'd

like to talk to you about your

experience you've written a couple of

books on hope and you have your own

personal experiences you have the

experiences of others that you've

written about I mean very open-ended

question to start with what do

you think hope is I mean I've got my

little ideas but what do you think

hope is for me I don't write or speak

about hope in sort of a superficial way

it's for me hope is not when I speak and

write about hope it's not something like

a wish like we use it interchangeably

right boy I wish I could go to Hawaii

boy I hope I get to go to Hawaii mm-hmm

when I when I study and think and write

about hope I'm talking about the

confident expectation in longing for a

promised blessing we don't know when

it's gonna happen but we know that it

will happen at some point that's

interesting so you look at it as an

expectation then yes it's you

you are expecting a blessing yes or

you're expecting something in the future

yes or things to be made right or you

know obviously if somebody dies that

they're not going to be you know

recreate reincarnated right in front of

you but the confident expectation and

longing for some promised blessings that

you believe or promised to you at some

point in your life or in your

understanding of the gospel so it seems

to me that that would that would change

your state of being wouldn't it I mean

it would change your

attitude of life if you constantly have

that sitting right in front of you if

that kind of a confidence as you say yes

and that expectation have you seen this

as you've talked about this or heard of

others experiences or your own

experiences where there is an

actual change in your attitude a change

in what would come from that attitude if

someone can live more with hope

absolutely because it you know it helps

you continue to move forward as opposed

to just sort of curling up and turning

inward you know the whoa is me and why


and to ask all of those questions why me

well you know we're here to be tested I

mean these things are gonna happen

there's going to be all kinds of things

thrown at us and if we can have an

external view that says okay I've got

this expectation that somehow these

blessings are going to happen and

somehow my life is going to go the

picket fence is down

I see no white picket fences right now

but somehow that's all going to be made

right I like your term there of external

view yeah what do you mean by that I

mean what I mean by that is that when

the storm rages inside and we all have

them right we're all carrying a cross of

a different kind so we've all got these

crosses and as we sort of go through

life at some point you have to look

outside of your own storm and when you

do that that creates an entirely

different trajectory of your life and it

pulls your focus off of yourself and it

puts it on to the feet of others

that are going through other issues and

what do you feel is the difference why

do you think that works I mean really

why why does that work so I'm guessing

that if you're tuck is you've talked

about in your books you've talked about

and you're and you're speaking you know

how service is an important part

of maybe moving out of struggles I

talked about a transition period that's

coming between your struggles to hope

yes and you see the service is a big

part of that why would reaching outside

of yourself make a difference how does

that make you transition yeah well you

know it makes it helps you understand

because when you're in the middle of a

struggle and you're really sort of

self-absorbed and consumed by your own

whoa when you step outside and do

something even just little for a

neighbor you know bring your garbage

cans in I mean you can start really

really small when you do that all of a

sudden you sort of start to realize it's

not always all about you and it just

it's a it's an external focus of all of

your attention and your emotion and your

drive being placed outside of your own

self I think that's really interesting I

I talked a lot about Lehigh stream and

how he has this dream of the tree of

life right which I believe my definition

that the angel gives to Nephi my

conclusion there is that is the doctrine

of Christ right so it's everything

about who Christ is what he does he

comes down to earth he takes on our sins

he resurrects you know it's all about

the this doctrine of Christ and the

opposite of that on the other side of

the chasm is this great a spacious

building and we're told that that great

and spacious building is pride yes right

and so you have these opposites

that are set before you in your journey

on life right and one is all about

you right and it's the spite and the

opposite of all about you really is this

underlying and again this is my opinion

but there's this underlying current of

the doctrine of Christ which is

following his example right which is

it's all as you say external it's it's

it's going out side of yourself and it's

sacrificing for others

serving others it's loving others and it

you know when you kind of I don't break

those down to their rudimentary elements

there you have this is all about me and

this is all about others yes and you

have those two choices right yeah look

you know when we're all we're all headed

towards the tree right and there's gonna

be some mud puddles and we're going to

do some face plants every one of us

right and so you know you hit the fit

your face hits the mud puddle and at

some point first you got a wallow a

little bit and that's okay we're all you

know or we can all have our own pity

party and we're entitled to that at some

point we get on our knees and we plead

for help and at some point we stand up

and guess what you know we've got a new

gift because of what you've been through

in that face plant

you have the ability now because to

change someone's life and to make a real

impact because you have a new

perspective and you have a new empathy

in an area that you never fully

understood it before because you hadn't

in there so if you can find the strength

just stand up and to just reach your

hand out and maybe help somebody else in

need or to just reach outside have that

external focus you know pull your head

up wipe that mud off of your face look

at the tree you've got a new gift for

the rest of your journey forward you put

a new gift to help others with that and

that when you use that gift and it can

be really simple when you use that gift

and that awareness that changes people's

lives you make a better place and I

think it's easy to develop a an attitude

and ideology whatever it might be to do

exactly that like you say I mean if

you're if you're face like you say all

of us have got her face is dirty plenty

of times yeah but it's easy to say ok

this journey then is a glass half empty

right right and I can take

that way and it's the same thing it's

the same experience that everybody else

has more or less alright I'm going to

take it as a glass half empty moving

forward and that's how I'm gonna see the

world but it's limiting I mean that's

going to limit you and limit those that

are around you as compared to as you

said which i think is great is you

now have an extra little tool you know

in your journey here in your backpack

toward the tree that you can help others

with it's gone through it yeah

and I'm not saying it's easy you know

it's not easy to get up out of that mud

puddle and wipe your face and take

another step it's not easy

was it meant to be yeah exactly yeah it

caused us to dig really really deep into

our soul and it forces a bridge to a

higher power and that's why we're here

is to find those bridges and those links

and those moments that testified to us

that there is something bigger than just

us yeah

that's been my experience I know that

when things are their toughest that's

when I feel closest today it is

unfortunately because I'm forced to do

it yeah you know it's just that little

push you know darn it get you're there

and it's not fun no you talked about

enduring it well and you talked a lot

about this I mean you kind of couple

this this idea of struggle and hope

right everybody's struggling but there

is hope what is it what does it

mean to you to say to someone or what

what is the asset of enduring it well

going through your struggles yeah okay

well I see I think they look really

different you know to just endure we

hear ourselves and we talk about a lot

of times in the gospel or with others we

talk about I'm just enduring well to

just endure

you know maybe looks like you're curled

up and under your covers praying away

your circumstance that can be enduring

right it's subtle

to some degree clench my fist and

grit my teeth and I'm just gonna get

through this service yeah and just pray

my circumstances away every single day


to endure it well means to reach outside

about and with those gifts that you're

learning and those gifts that you've

received in the past you are making

small differences in the world with

individual people that you can make an

impact on while you're struggling I

think that's the difference between

enduring and enduring it well is to

function throughout the struggle and

still recognize others okay around

travel what you also say that

there's always hope yeah right and I'm

guessing you say that because we all

know sometimes we don't feel that way

right right if something's tough what

what do you what do you do to you

know when you're really at that the

end of the rope yeah what do you do

to remind yourself of that you know that

there is hope yeah well I think it I

think it really goes back to a belief in

it right a belief in what my definition

it was when we started which is that

confident expectation and longing for

some promised blessing that I believe

that that is true that I believe that in

my heart and soul and I can say to

myself I don't know why everything feels

like it's falling apart but I trust for

me it's trusting in God for others you

know whatever your belief system is I

trust that maybe it's not falling apart

maybe it's falling together maybe the

pieces are being put together to teach

or to take my path on a different

direction or to take someone else's path

who I'm concerned and caring about so I

think it boils down to a belief system

in that

and so for me what that looks like is

reaching out and it alters my prayers a

little bit I don't initially write we

all pray that that circumstance will go

away you know tragedy happens or

something happens in where we're in the

mud puddle right and we're just

desperately praying for that

circumstance to disappear we want that

mountain removed we don't want to hike


we just want Heavenly Father take away

that mountain and at some point my

prayers changed to help me climb that

mountain help me climb this mountain

help me take another steep step and help

me trust that this is something bigger

than I can see do you think there's ways

that we can prepare ourselves for that I

mean it'd be nice to be already prepared

to go through a bad situation then just

to a hundred percent react right yeah

right how would you prepare for that

maybe you know that's really hard I feel

like that's a certainly a process not an

event mm-hmm and I'm better at

recognizing that then I was in my 20s

and my 30s for sure so I think it's

really a lifetime of study for me what

changed my world and rewired me was an

early-morning calling to teach seminary

for four years mm-hmm completely rewired

me like how I

I got glimpses and I got messages and

that I had never seen before I I know

that I was blessed in that Colleen to be

able to take a chapter in the New

Testament or the Book of Mormon or in

any other scripture to take a chapter

that I had studied for and to instantly

flip it into teaching those high school

kids how that made a difference in their

life what is the message here for you

and so I was able to do that over and

and over again and just through a

process of applying the script

hi yes applying it and taking a

different attitude as you read as to

what does this have to do with me and I

still do that you know I haven't taught

now for 10 years but I still do the same

thing in my mind when I sit down to read

you know Mosiah this week I sit down and

I say hey what does this have to do with

me and it's a different way to approach

it really is a different way I

think it's the way you're supposed to I

really do it you know it's so hard with

the Scriptures because you're talking

about well they're old they're old

they're old they're all grown in a

foreign land this strange culture the

string you know all the translation that

goes into it and you know it's odd

that we have that as our primary manual

really I mean in a sense right it's like

so why does the Lord do that you know

and why do we have these old writings

you know for us today but for me I

think it's part of well the title of one

of your books you know where he's

talking about the journey there's kind

of a journey like you experience

teaching you know of discovery right and

if you can keep moving down that path

with the scriptures of all of this

discovery of new context and new meaning

and purpose and practicality I try

to talk a lot about that there


the scriptures are very practical if you

can learn to apply them to your life and

it's different every time right if you

take that approach in your study and in

your reading Messiah chapter 12 his dip

going to be different next year than it

is this year sure right and so you take

that old text and it's not though here

we go again

Messiah 12 it's going to be different

because if you're asking that question

and the you've got a prayer in your

heart of what does this mean to me what

am I supposed to learn it's going to be

different every year that's a great


you know I talk in this series I've

started and not finished as I've studied

this my I've come to the conclusion that

faith hope and charity are there they're

this triad of attributes right that are

they're always brought together and I

can see it in the Old Testament even

when it's not given the same exact words

I can see it in stories but it's to me

it's a it's a it's an attribute or

progression in other words the way I see

it taught and often III I can't help but

think that the authors of the scriptures

don't believe this they take an

example of faith say Enos right he's

praying and he wants repentance you know

he wants to go through the repentance

process and he exerts his faith in the

sacrifice of Jesus Christ right right so

faith is put out there and then

immediately he has this new state of

mind after he has gone through this were

painted repentance process it's like

he's a new creature it's being born

again right and with being born again

there's this new attitude and

this new outlook and perspective on his

life and you know you can kind of see

this as you read through the story and

then and I what I what I would look at

that is the hope right that's so

to me hope is a result of faith I don't

believe it all that they're the same

thing they're very different right I

always tell people my belief is that

faith is trust it is it is not belief it

is it's learning to take a principle and

exercising it proving it yeah and then

if it's true you can rely on it right

it's uh it's like the atonement

right if I can try that out and I can

lean on it that's trust right and

that if I exercise that then I have hope

mmm-hmm right I can have hoping that

principle I see it's going to work in

the future if I can have that

expectation as you say especially the

big prize right the eternal life

exaltation if I can have that hope for

that and live with that I'm a different

person and then what Enos does once he

feels that is he immediately he turns

and he starts talking about his brother

in the Nephites and how he wants to

preach to them and help them and then

even further out he talks about the

Lamanites yes right and you can see this

process happening throughout the

scriptures where there's this like

there's this attribute of progression

right I'm going through all three of

those phases but it seems to me you know

I don't know if you've thought about

this before but it just seems to me that

that hope may be you know the way we

gain hope and have that kind of an

attitude and perspective on life is to

be thrown into struggles you know

everybody's gonna have to be tested like

Abraham and Sarah and develop faith

through those struggles lean on the Lord

lean on principals lean on the plan of

salvation and then we can have that hope

start you know blooming for us right and

then when you've got that hope when

you've entered I feel like when you've

entered that phase of you've got the

hope that you're sort of toying with it

right I think I've got some hope here I

think we begin to look for it hmm that's

when we position our hearts differently

it's not gonna be on a billboard maybe

it is you know you hear about stories as

someone sees a word on a billboard and

they go that's my answer

but in general it's going to be so small

that it could be it could very easily be

missed if you haven't positioned your

heart to find it so you've got a trust

you've got to have that faith and then

when you begin to hope you begin to

search for it in very very discreet tiny

simple very beautiful ways

that Heavenly Father is saying all right

here you go here's just a nugget for you

it sounds like what you're saying is

that if you've developed that as you say

that it builds on itself yes absolutely

so you're a are you saying you're more

receptive kind of maybe or you just like

everything else I think practice makes

you better

mm-hmm at finding hope if you practice

it and if you work at it the

scriptures say that well one thing you

say is to make sure that you know

that you're not alone yes right with

that man that would be an ingredient

somewhere in there with hope

right and it's kind of like also we can

tie that into what you're saying about

being you know something that's external

right if when you're alone and you feel

alone obviously you're not

external at all right you're your if

you're lonely then there's something

missing in a bond between those around

you or the Lord or whatever right so if

if you're you want to know if you want

to feel like you're not alone in times

of struggle and depression and anxiety

whatever it might be and you need hope

the scriptures say that you can't have

fear and love at the same time right can

you can you have can you have loneliness

and hope at the same time sure sure I

think so

I can give you an example of a moment

that was huge for me

I write about this in my first book my

son had come home early from a mission

called to Russia and so he comes home

early right he comes out of the MTC at

about 11 weeks and comes back and so you

know my whole world

you know just exploded in that moment

and I he's going through one thing and

I'm going through another right as mama

bear and

it's not the way it's supposed to look

and I just I'm devastated for him and so

I'm trying to pray that boy back on a

mission all right I'm gonna I'm gonna I

have the faith to get that boy back on

the mission mm-hm and so that's where my

prayers are all day and all night long

and I felt very alone in that I see no

progression in that direction I felt

abandoned my faith is tested I feel like

I'm the only one going through this and

there was one particular day that I'm

out hiking I was up in Utah for the

summer and I'm out hiking in the

mountains and I wrote about this in my

first book but it was probably my lowest

day and I'm out there crying I'm just

bawling my head off hiking in the

mountains and all of a sudden and I'm

praying and I'm kind of yelling at God

you know and I and all of a sudden here

comes a white butterfly and here comes a

second and here comes a third and I'm

not kidding Greg there were a hundred

white butterflies that came out of the

grass surrounded me and just fluttered

around me as I hiked that mountain for

about a minute and I said to myself okay

God knows who I am he knows where I am

he knows my struggle and he knows and he

loves my son he is aware so in that

moment where I have never felt so alone

and so abandoned I also felt hope

because I recognized that that wasn't

you know fortunately I'm grateful that

my heart was able to recognize that as a

moment of hope a glimmer that God gave

me that he was aware and that it wasn't

just a coincidence Oh what are all these

butterflies doing out here you know if

that will never be a coincidence to me

nobody could ever convince me otherwise

sure yeah well I'm not going to try and

commit you otherwise yeah


the first quote in your book Servie’s song

that you use in the first chapter is

from my favorite prophet is David O

Mckay and he says the greatest battle

of life is fought out within the silent

chambers of your own soul yeah and I

think that's it's a great quote but you

know there's there seems to me

like there's this great duality of our

mortal experience here and in that and

it's my belief you know we have I'm

going into some of my things here but

but I I believe the Aaronic priesthood

is the priesthood of the individual and

the milk acidic priesthood is the

priesthood of the family and the

community right and so we have this

these two areas here where we have the

individual and then we have reaching out

beyond that and going out to

others right so well kids increases

first marriage and family and then Zion

right and but it really I mean I

don't know if there's another time I in

anybody's life where maybe that

loneliness comes in more than when you

are again at the end of your rope and

that a whole defining of an individual

because you can you can be in a happy

long-term marriage have great kids

everything is hunky-dory in all of your

life and you've got all these

relationships you're a people person a

great network and but when there is

something that just hits you square in

the eyes and it's just going to drag you

through the mud you are in a sense for a

while there by yourself

I mean you are experiencing this in a

very individual way yes and yet the way

out of that is apparently to reach out

to others right so it puts you back in

as this individual

but then and what I'm trying to say is

it seems to me that again also in that

there is a progression that happens with

our struggles in that the Lord is saying

I want you to understand your

individuality because with that comes a

certain identity and an understanding if

you'll follow the process properly yeah

that you are my son or daughter right

you have a direct

relationship to me and that

intrinsically right is going to say that

you're not alone right right if you have

that relationship and then of course

through service or whatever else it

might be reaching out to others that's

how you then move yourself out of

struggle and into hope which is going to

produce joy right and the fullness of

joy you talk about the difference

between joy and fullness of joy yeah

yeah essentially you're going from the

why me

to the what now you know that's a higher

that's a higher question to say what now

instead of winey winey is internal it's

it's all focused on me and all of my

issues and troubles and it's okay to

be in that space for a little while

because we all are we are that's

the turmoil within the soul which is the

greatest animal is when we're just it's

just all internal we're just can't you

know can't sort of get ahold of

something in at some point we do raise

our head up and seek for guidance from

friends and from leaders at church and

from God and then it's not quite as

lonely a journey you feel like you've

got a little bit of a spiritual team on

your side yeah you'd said I'm quoting

here from your book you said suffering

is universal how we react to suffering

is individual exactly

right I think again I think that's right

it just kind of you know struggles are a

part of life yeah and unfortunately we

need to say well it's a good thing

because we're never going to be pushed

otherwise to strengthen that faith to

find the hope to you know develop battle

scars right and to increase you know

our understanding of who we are with

without that right but do you think it

helps knowing that other people go

through the same thing

absolutely it helps a little bit there's

been of a team that you're a member

you're in a club now right yes but it's

still it's still an individual

battlefield you know when it when you

take it take it right down to its bones

it's still between you and you and the


in making that work within yourself and

coming to terms with that and how you're

going to react your react to that

struggle your reaction when you had your

your moment with your son

it's in you know did that kind of

pull you away from the white picket

fence absolutely right it's kind of like

I mean just that one jarring thing all

of a sudden all the pieces fall away

everything look it looks differently now

yeah and it doesn't mean what your

expectations had been before and that

wasn't in my plan do you think that

changes you

I mean before you're going through the

struggle that is it a feeling of like

I'm not who I thought I was or at least

my life isn't what I thought it was then

or well first for a short time you know

as I'm as I'm rolling around in the mud

these were my thoughts I didn't I should

have had better family home evenings I

should have had more family prayer with

my kids I didn't know I should I should

have I should

I really started to beat myself up and

then at some point I didn't let myself

go down that road too long at some point

I said wait a minute you know wait a

minute this is not this is not about me

and my failures as a parent let me pull

my head up a little bit here and

move forward in this and let's see

what I'm supposed to learn here it's a

different you know I think it's no

different than many other struggles that

we encounter whether it's illness or

whether it's a child leaving church or

you know all of these issues you

initially want to beat yourself up and

they used to say wait a minute no that's

not what this is about it's uh free

agency stuff to deal with yeah we all

want it but it's it can be a hard thing

to deal with you believe we

enthusiastically yes I want to feel joy

yes I want to struggle in that free

agency thing is the bomb let's go for it

yeah but you know what that's

kind of a strength though if you do

think about that right I mean it's kind

of like okay I knew what I was getting

myself into

yes and I was happy about it yes and

maybe that provides a little bit more of

an eternal perspective it's huge for me

really it really is huge for me to have

a complete trust and understanding that

that really did take place and that I

really did believe that I wanted to come

here and go through everything that I'm

going through

it's everything yeah your first

book was finding hope in the journey

your second book was Servie’s song yes

right tell us just a little bit kind of

a capsulated version of the story of

Servie Servie is this beautiful woman

whose mother wife in

Zimbabwe little tiny village in Africa

who has six children and her husband

dies tragically in a car accident within

the period of two years it quickly

becomes very apparent that she can no

longer pay for food and she cannot pay

for their education

and she and her husband knew that

education was the ticket out of poverty

in Zimbabwe there in this poor little

village right and so she has to make

a decision and it becomes that she

becomes made aware of an opportunity to

come to the United States and to work

and send money back so she leaves those

children in the care of family members

has never left her little village in

Africa an airplane goes to New York City

if you pay imagine that right skyscraper

capital and goes to New York City to

find work so that she can mail money

back for the care of her children for

the education of her children so that

they will be more educated and better

off than she is that's chapter one

mm-hmm so the story continues on and we

see tragedy after tragedy we see her get

down on her knees and you see her get

back up again over and over so many

times that you wonder helping this woman

go forward and but you see this

beautiful transformation of her heart

and you see incredible blessings that

she finds here in the United States and

you see this story of Hope unfold from

her perspective and it's really

inspiring it's inspiring to those of us

who see our problems is overwhelming

which they are in our own life but we

look at some of her problems and go

right okay I'm gonna be a little more

grateful tomorrow mm-hmm she do you see

I mean this might seem obvious but what

what role does hole play in in that

story I mean is are there other

attributes that she has that how does

someone you know cause I know she has she

loses her one or two or three of her

children I can't remember how many and

you know what she's I think mostly while

she's here in the US and in there back

home and of course she lost her husband

she's got other trials she's got to go

through it's a and obviously if we all

need context when we all need to see

examples I mean a savior obviously is

the example of what somebody goes

through right but how do you keep

getting back up yeah she was raised by

this amazing I've met her mother before

she doesn't speak English but we just

communicate through the ice you know

it's just heart to heart and I met her

mother and her mother is the God loving

woman who carries around her Bible

tucked underneath her arm wherever she

goes she's got that Bible with her

so serving was raised you know that I

don't believe the LDS Church is if

anywhere in this in this village where

she is from but she was raised by a

mother who loved God and she taught

those children that he is aware of you

and you need to talk to him every day

and he will never ever leave you and so

she had that sort of deep belief that

she never let go of now as you as you

learn in the books and things that she

does to within her grief she saves her

money and is able to fly back once a

year to see her children to save enough

money to do that and so one of the

things that she does is all year long in

preparation for that trip back she goes

over and over and over to second-hand

stores to Goodwill Industries you know

to St. Goodson’s Nepal and she goes

over there and she purchases for pennies

any items of clothing that she can for


orphanages back in Zimbabwe so when she

gets on that airplane every year she

packs a small suitcase with you know

shirts and pants and things for her just

bare necessities and then she also ships

a very large suitcase it's just filled

with little dresses for girls who never

have a dress for sandals for boys who

run barefoot in the streets and for

little shorts and little shirts and she

brings those all over to Zimbabwe every

time she goes and it gets to the point

that after several years word travels

you know within the kids on the

street and they know that she's

coming sir he's coming sir he's coming

and so she gets off the bus after a

two-day trip you know from airplanes and

buses and all of that and gets off the

bus and they all kids from a street

homeless kids in the orphanages they

they found her around her they know that

she's coming bearing gifts and that

she's going to hug each of them and give

them all a gift that's what she

does with her grief as she loses some of

her own children she gives to others who

have no parents that's very

heartwarming that's amazing yeah yeah

that's the kind of person that she is

yeah how do you way she'd give me a big

hug whether you wanted one or not

this is the kind of hugger that doesn't

let go you know you kind of go to

release she doesn't release you're in

there for a while yeah amazing yeah I

love it if you were to give advice to

someone who is struggling with something

right now they need more hoping their

life or even to say giving advice to

someone who needs to live daily with

hope right with that attitude

what advice would you

give my advice would be take a really

take a really hard look at what your

keep pouring your prayers what are you

articulating are you or your prayers

asking that that your situation be

removed and I think that's okay

but are you also asking for help in

finding those glimmers of hope are you

are you doing some things in your life

are you looking at your scriptures are

you know are you doing some things

that built yourself up spiritually and

emotionally so that you can recognize

just a glimmer of hope when it happens

and ask God and your prayers to help you

to see that and you will know you will

if you do what you need to do to prepare

for that in building yourself up and

then you ask for it you know in a real

and a real prayer desire from your heart

you'll see that and it'll be in the form

of whether it's butterflies or whether

it's a scripture or whether it's a hymn

its son at church or whether it's a book

that you read or whether it's a friend

that comes over and says something to

you and you think that's exactly what I

need to hear it comes in all forms and

that's what the first book is

about really is all the different ways

that we can position our hearts to see

and to hear and to feel glimmers of hope

that are so often missed because we're

just trudging down that road with the

blinders on because that's how we get

through struggles right it's we trudge

you put the blinders on and we just look

at our own two feet and you trudge up

that mountain and so it's a conscious

effort to pull your head up to ask for

glimmers of hope and to look from side

to side at other people's feet because

there are others trudging up that

mountain with you in on their own trails

and I promise I promise you you'll see

glimmers of Hope it's an opportunity to

grow and maybe experience even greater


it may not take away you know what

you're dealing with but it will help you

it will give you peace and it'll give

you comfort to deal with what you are

dealing with well I have it from very

good source that you've been a very

positive influence to a lot of people so

thank you keep doing what you're


I didn't want to say is that I do in the

aspect that you're never alone I do

really honestly believe that we are if

there are angels both seen and unseen

that enter our lives when we most need

them and so if you know if that's

whether it's a friend or something I

feel like in the scriptures we talked a

lot about the Savior's arm there are a

lot of descriptive phrases open extended

outstretched inviting you know those are

all adjectives that describe his

arms and sometimes we need to be saviors

arms and other times someone else needs

to be that for us and that's all part of

that service that you've talked about

which helps us get through and get on

that train of faith hope and charity

which is where we all want to be yeah

great well good luck are you are you any

plans on another book I'm

finished with my third book and it's

just sort of in the ropes right now of

getting published and I hope it'll be

available in the fall how's your

experience been and being an author you

know I never I never set out to be an

author but here I am Here I am on this

path and it's great I feel that they

have an opportunity to reach a lot of

people and make a small difference in a

way that I can do that and it's sort of

this taking me on a speaking routes also

I do a lot of speed

in ships conferences and you know just

any group that wants to chat about coal

or not sure yeah it's been a really

great opportunity for me to make a small

difference well a little better it's a

great topic and all I look forward to

your next book


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