at and where we're going and has this ideology been terminated, curbed, or is
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[Music]
All right, welcome to Quick Show. My name is Greg Matson and I am your host. In this episode, we bring back Eric Smith, a research fellow at the KO
Institute. Eric, how are you doing? I'm good. How are you? Good, good, good to have you back on the show. I want to go
straight to the point here. Uh, and then we can kind of unravel things as as we move forward here. But are we living in
a postdei world as some pendants may say? Um, no, not yet. We're almost there. DEI
is not dead. It is on hospice care. Uh, which is to say it will it will be uh
gone soon uh in in my opinion. And the reason why it's not dead yet um is
because there are a lot of people out there who are still holding on to things, still trying to um do things in
a stealthy manner. Um renaming certain things to hide the fact that they're
still doing um you know critical social justice space, DEI, things like that. Um but I think you
know it's not just about Trump's executive orders. It's about other people waking up and coming out of the
woodwork realizing that it's safe to to say uh how much they disagree with uh
DEI, a lot of the initiatives and things like that. So, it's not just a Trump administration movement. It's starting
to be a people movement. Um academics, activists, things like that. So, as those voices grow, DEI will shrink.
Okay. You know, it's interesting because back when you and I were earlier starting in this and and and speaking against this, that was the issue. I
mean, there were hardly anybody there was hardly anyone speaking out against this because of two things. One, you're
kind of like when when there's a shift in thinking like this in the culture, you start to think, well, is there some
value in this? Is this right? Because there seems to be more and more people grabbing on to these ideas and these
phrases and these terminology. And then you start to see, okay, well, anybody who does speak up against it is
basically harassed. I mean, you are shamed, harassed, fired, whatever it might be. And so, everyone really backs
off. Like, what's going on here? What is happening? Another one is you send your kids off to college and then all of a
sudden they come back for Thanksgiving dinner and you're like, who is this person? What is going on? What is
happening? And that that point, you know, earlier on where we were coming out a little bit more, you know, for me,
I was back in about 2012. It's like what in the world is happening here? But you
you got to go out and speak against this. What has your experience been with uh kind of moving through that evolution
and and and changing because you used to be a DEI counselor basically, right? Uh
yes, a very long time ago I was a uh DEI officer and um even when I stopped being
one, I would chair a diversity committee here and there or or something like that. Um and not a lot of people were
speaking up in the last few years, right? And uh now that DEI seems to be
down for the count, um a lot of people are speaking up. Um now, you know, my
personal opinion, too little too late, you know, uh in a lot of situations. Um
but that's not actually accurate. It's not too late. The like I said earlier, the more voices come out against it, uh
the more we can ensure its death, you know, or that the death of this iteration, this illiberal iteration of
DEI. Anyway, I um it just uh burns me up a little bit that
a lot of people are now speaking up when it's relatively safe, you know, um in
inside higher ed just put out an article uh last week um with this author. I
won't say his name um but he's basically like maybe this DEI thing isn't a good idea.
You know, maybe maybe land acknowledgements aren't what they seem to be. And I'm like, "Okay, where was
this article in 2022?" Yeah. You know, I now it's out. You know, I I I don't
think we should we should forgive for sure. We need to forgive to move on. Forgiveness is imperative, you know. Um
but we shouldn't forget. Yes. Um accountability is very important here. In fact, we should have a conversation
as publicly as possible about what happened, what happened, why it happened. um and all these uh people who
have a change of heart all of a sudden can you know chime in and and tell us
what happened and why I think we need that closure. Uh now I will disagree with you a little
bit on this. I am still concerned about the next iteration, the next major iteration of of an evolution of DEI,
critical social justice, uh, critical theor, everything else, right? It just seems to kind of morph and kind of like
a virus. It just kind of changes and along with c the culture and finds new soft spots. Um, I'm I'm concerned about
this idea of okay, there there is such a strong backlash right now that things
are changing immensely. corporations, large corporations are getting rid of their their DEI offices and and uh even
even academia, right? You've got certain universities that are getting rid of these things and their practices and
their policies with DEI, major universities, but they're so entrenched
still in the institutions of the US. I I just wonder unless that is somehow
gutted. Uh I I I my concern is that when
you know there's someone else in office because that kind of seems to be really driving things right now. Um that
there's kind of going to be a feeling of like never again. We are never again going to be in a position where there's
this much push back on critical social justice. Does that make sense to you at all? Does that it it it makes sense. But
I I believe the reason why we're we got into this mess in the first place, one of the reasons why we were susceptible
to it anyway, is that we took our eyes off the ball. Um Greg Luciano and Ricky
Schlott uh last year wrote a book called The Cancelling of the American Mind, and they had a chapter that, you know,
rightly talked about how it went underground, you know, the late 90s and then resurged
when the time was right. really. Um Trayvon Martin, uh Michael Brown, and
then George Floyd, right? Um when they went underground, it was like out of
sight, out of mind, right? Uh they were allowed to out out of sight, out of mind. Oh, yeah. Yes. Um and they were
allowed to, you know, um talk to each other. Uh they were allowed to organize,
uh all kinds of different things. um you know kind of undercover. You know what
we need to do is you know be aware not take our eyes off the ball this time. Um
when social justice initi initiatives are implemented we have to check and see
okay so what's the underlying ideology here uh uh what is this based on um are
we still embracing uh liberal values like uh free speech viewpoint diversity
individuality things like that uh we just have to be more cognizant and you
know I plan on being more cognizant and and and being a a voice against this
stuff uh whenever I see So, I mean, at least from where I'm standing, we're more ready to fight back
than we were before. Okay. What
you you you like I said, I was trying to get a hold of you on your email. Um, what is the story of you moving out of
academia? You had talked previously about you you were alienated because you were the wrong I'm quoting air quotes
here. you were the wrong kind of black person and you were told that you were a mere presence your mere presence caused
harm. Was this part is this the reasoning behind the move? Um most of it. Yes. Now
again my immediate institution your college of Pennsylvania I didn't see much of that. There were people here and
there um and uh I let them know how I felt and vice versa. Um, but ultimately
my field seemed to be uh hijacked and
trying to fight people behind enemy lines is difficult to do, you know. Um,
so I thought I'd leave, right? You know, gather the calvary, you know, come back
and and and take care of things. I I thought I could do a lot more outside of academia than inside of academia to save
academia. And um so far it seems like a good move. Can we save academia?
Um little bit little bit of context here. I actually one thing one phrase that I use
all the time is basically you and I both have adopted the term of critical social justice. But that to me is the faith.
The religion is to me is is rooted in academia. I call it the religion of
academia because that's kind of where it's sourced. that I'm not it's not a a broad brush saying that academia is you
know evil or bad. I think there's so much good that comes out of you know the academy but but that is where it is
sourced and it is infiltrated. Can we change it? Um I think we can
change it if we again don't take our eyes off the ball and we strike while
the iron is hot and the iron is going to be hot for another three and a half years. you know, um, with the, uh, Trump
administration, uh, uh, so adamantly going against this stuff, right? I think we need to be very loud about what
exactly is problematic. Um, I'm trying to organize right now a a
an an event uh, talking about these things, explaining, you know, exactly
what is wrong with diversity, equity, and inclusion as it manifests nowadays, not those actual words and their real
meanings, right? But uh what they mean you know in the context of DEI
uh in academia and I I I think if we can just let as many people know exactly
what's going on right that that social pressure can do something uh to some
degree. Now you're right uh academia to a large extent was kind of already
there with a lot of critical theory postmodern theory things like that. um you know there was a there was a
dedication to counter hegemonic stances right pushing back against the mainstream uh to the point where
sometimes it seemed like they were doing that for its own sake you know uh push back against the mainstream so one could
say that DEI didn't break academia academia was already broken which made
DEI possible right uh one one can say that so you know drawing attention to
that as well as the detriments of contemporary DEI I think go a long way
and like I said we have three and a half years yeah you got three and a half years to make make a change which is enough time
if the change actually is implemented right right I but again I think it's important to get it's not just a
cultural shift it is also it's also certain individuals that are
the pushers and and shvers on this whole movement and and if they're given
license to uh to be in certain positions of influence, then then it's I think it's
very difficult to to make the change because they're still going to be around. Um let me get to let me get Go
ahead. Well, I'm going to be around too. Yeah, you're around too. That's right.
All right. Uh I want to get to victimhood a little bit. Do you believe that the emphasizing of personal agency
right can inadvertently ignore uh
let's call it systematic barriers I'll use that term systematic barriers right is it necessary
uh to have a a a to have a correction on on the current
culture of victimhood definitely um people have more power
than they realize And you know the concept of free association is part of
the first amendment for a reason, right? Uh we are allowed to get together and um
create organizations to promote something or to push back on something. Um and we can promote upward mobility on
our own. I um I had a conversation with Kendall Qualss the other day uh a
co-founder of an organization called Take Charge which is trying to uh revise
education and and entrepreneurship and show people within black communities
that they do have the power to make a difference in their lives. They don't need to wait for the government to come
and save them or something like that. Qualss is um a candidate for the governor of Minnesota right now and he's
running on that platform. You know, family, uh education, religion. If we um
you know, write those ships, then we could help the black community and by extension everyone else, right? Uh a
high tie lifts all boats, so they say. Now, is he is he running Republican or
Democrat? Republican. Republican. Black Republican. Yes. Yeah. So that that is
such the opposite message of what has been given in the last several dec I mean since probably the 40s, right? This
is that that that so we've got a you know a 60-year 80-year push to me that I
see of victimhood in the black community. Yes. And and and that's for certain. And here's the thing. Um
people in the black community don't all identify as victims. In fact, there's a
lot of conservatism in the black community. Uh, black people have voted
Democrat for so long out of a sense of obligation and group consciousness, right? Um, what's often called uh
strategic essentialism. We need to band together, you know, uh regardless of our political uh ideologies, right? And uh
to uh protect the the group, you know, and and better ensure our upward mobility. Um people are starting to wake
up and and test the waters outside of uh the Democratic party right now. Um and
there's there seems to be more room for political diversity. In fact, we've seen a surge in not just uh black Republican
voters, but black Republican politicians. Um a lot of people are running for governor or some kind of a
state position right now who are black Republicans and they have a lot in common. that family, that religion
thing. Um, many of them are vets, which it goes a long way with a lot of Americans, right? So, there seems to be
this surge of black republicanism going on right now.
Well, and it's it's you know, it's been so long it almost seems like being a
black Democrat or being a Democrat for a black individual is not only uh assumed
and maybe expected, but it's part of the black community identity. It's almost
part of an identity or has been. Right. Right. Yeah. Um Nicole Hannah Jones
might call this political blackness, right? You know, it's uh part of that
identity is, you know, being, you know, not just left or center, but far left,
right? Um but as I said earlier, there's a lot more political diversity in among
black Americans than uh mainstream media will let you know. Right. Right. and and
and that diversity is people feel safe, you know, uh exposing that diversity and
testing out other political waters, right? And right now it's um the
Republican party and uh conservative um you know, viewpoints and things like
that. But I mean, now that people are more open-minded, how about classical
liberal libertarian virtues and things like that? Uh, I think this is a a ripe
time to you introduce different political ideologies uh in black America
and see what happens. Do you think that Oh, by the way, I'm coming to mind here remembering that
Clinton was the first black president. Yeah. Right. Again, it's it's a political it's not color of your skin.
It's this political blackness or this political whiteness, right? That is that has been kind of pushed.
It's really interesting stuff. Uh, do you believe that going back to victimhood, does victimhood remove
agency? Um, well, yes. I mean, well, here's the
thing. There's it it's one thing to be a victim. It's another thing to identify
as a victim, right? You can be victimized. That happens all the time, right? But if you stay in that mindset
of I'm always going to be victimized or there's no hope. Um, you know, as long
as I'm in this society, I can't win. Then that's a, you know, perceived lack
of agency, right? Um, some people call it learned helplessness. You know, I I
want people to unlearn that helplessness and learn agency. Yeah. I I like the term I like the the
dichotomy there between victimhood and agency. I think that's great. Has has dei marginalized the dissenting black
voices out there? Dissenting toward what? Okay. Dissenting from what has
been perceived as blackness. Dissenting from a political point of view and an identity of Democrat, liberal, leftist,
uh, uh, black, right? If you're dissenting from that, has DEI in a sense
marginalized black individuals and marginalized the uh and when I say
marginalized, has it put them into a more of a position of victimhood? if you are practicing the the philosophy of DEI
and critical social justice. Well, um I was marginalized by people practicing
DEI and critical social justice. Um to to to a large degree. Um that said, I
wasn't victimized. Um they were hoping I'd be victimized. They were hoping I'd cower and and and shut up, and I did the
complete opposite, right? Uh so you know um the difference may be that when we're
pushed out we're not just going to you know sit down and embrace that identity
of the pushed out, right? Um we're going to climb in different directions. We're
going to we're going to um overcome things uh in ways that show our agency
and that we are against victim identity. What do you think has caused this
demographic shift? I mean, even in back in 2016, you had Trump bringing on many more of the black votes in the US uh
than a Romney or a Bush previously. And then of course in in 2020 or excuse me
2024 the shift was substantial
in in moving over toward a a Trump versus uh Kamla and not just with the
black vote but the Latino vote 44% which is incredible difference. What
what do you attribute that to? uh people opening their eyes uh to the
inefficacy of uh democratic policies. um people opening their eyes to the fact
that you know uh a lot of these downtrodden cities uh full of blight
um you know riots uh a a upsurge of crime they're all run by Democrats some
black Democrats right uh people are looking at that they're looking at the price of eggs
and and things like that and and they're starting to say wait a minute maybe there's another way of going about doing
this um And for a lot of people, you know, Trump speaks to them or let me put
it this way, they see Trump as not speaking to the, you know, usual
suspects, uh, the elite, you know, uh, in the world, right? That the people who
are already well off and and and don't really need his help. Uh, he's, you
know, he seems like a um beacon of hope for a lot of people, including black people. So, you know, if um voting for
this person for all these years hasn't worked, let's try something new. And I
think that's a big part of what's happening. Now, Eric, you are Let's go to your field a little bit here more precisely.
You're you're you've been a a professor of rhetoric. What how does uh how does the the
practice of DEI clash with rhetoric? How does it clash with rhetoric? Well,
it doesn't. I mean, my main answer is one, you know, that's a pet peeve of
mine, and it's the idea that rhetoric is about audience consideration. Aristotle
defined it as the ability to discern in any given situation the available means
of persuasion, which means that you understand what your audience understands
um their their their values, their attitudes, and beliefs, and you speak accordingly, right? um not so much to uh
manipulate or pander but to make sure they understand what you're talking about. Um DEI when people are talking
about DEI is it's less about the audience and more about them. It's more about I am fill in the blank, hear me
roar. Right? And so it's not about um you know rhetoric in the traditional
sense. It's about pushing back on counter hegemony or or on hegemony. It's
it's about being counter hegemonic. Um a lot of um uh rhetorics in my field right
now are talking about the concept of counter story. um which is a cute way of
saying talking back against the mainstream you know and there are a lot of books and articles coming out right
now about this idea of counter study or story I thought I had some books
available but I don't um but um that is about telling our stories lived
experience as epistemologically equal to you know sound evidence empirical
evidence uh research things like that. Uh the the use of logic and rationality
to explain your point. Um they think telling a story is equal to that. But
here's the thing, and here's something else that is against rhetoric. You're not allowed to respond in any kind of
critical way. You know, you have to love everything you just heard from this
story. You can't say, "Wait a minute, this part doesn't make sense, or can you elaborate on, you know, that's
considered violence, quote unquote." Um, so these are rhetoricians who think
rhetoric is a form of violence. That's how's that going to work? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. It's interesting because at
first, and I think this is part of the carrot for those that fall into a a critical social justice mentality is
that you are fighting against the the hegemonic powers and structures out
there, right? To look at from a a Marxist point of view, especially looking at Grampsy. But then you're also
fighting against the meta narrative of postmodernism, right? And the postmodernism pushes. And so you do
think there's some rhetoric involved here in a sense because you're you're giving it you're persuading against this
this monolith to some degree or at least as it's viewed. But the truth is is what
they're saying is also a monolith. not only a monolith but a a policed
monolith, a policed message that does not allow any leeway around it. You
accept it or else we accuse you. Right? And and that's why it's rhetorically
weak, right? You're not you're not using your, you know, logic and rationality to
persuade. You're using coercion. You're using intimidation uh to persuade. And
the whole point of rhetoric is to avoid those things, right? We we have rhetoric
so that we don't resort to bullets, right? Um or other, you know, uh forms
of uh violence and um that is being seen as either weak or an aspect of whiteness
to do those things. So yeah. Do you think that
rhetoric should be emphasized more in the K to2 space? Oh yes. And would that
help us not fall into uh um world views that are
so dogmatic? Yes. Uh, in fact, I'm working on uh
curricula um with people at KO um on that uh to you know implement rhetorical
uh instruction in K through 12 uh middle school and high school. Fantastic. Yes.
Yes. Uh we're working on that right now. We're we're doing a presentation at the um um National Council for the Teachers
of English in November on this. Um, so we'll hopefully have a wide audience for
that. And, uh, the idea is the sooner we get this stuff, the better. The sooner
we see the efficacy of, um, not debate in a formalized sense, but in dialectic
back and forth conversation to arrive at a truth. Uh, the sooner students understand that and see the benefits of
it, the better. Uh so you know it's we're trying to get it into primary and
secondary education. No that's that's fantastic. I we talk a lot about education here and and uh that
is very very much needed. It's it's it's it's sad because the state of American
primary education has fallen so much. It's it's it's
there's not a lot of critical thinking taught. There's not a lot of learning skills taught. It's let me dump the
information into your brain and and so anything that brings about critical thinking and and trying to really
understand and grapple with hard questions and issues is so desperately needed.
Yeah. And and that's you know you you have that problem before you approach
DEI you know or like that. I mean there's a you know critical thinking is hard to teach. just telling somebody to
listen to what you're saying is relatively easy, right? Um so that was
already an issue before all this blew up, um and uh hopefully
the uh educational reforms going on right now will make a difference. What
type of alternative value frameworks could could come in and replace DEI?
Well, when I was a DEI officer, um, I focused on, you know, letting people
know about different viewpoints, uh, from different cultural stances and things like that and celebrating
different cultures. Um, for example, uh, we've heard of the privilege walk, right? Yes. Yes. You know, so uh if you
have this that and this what take a step or two forward and by the end of it all
the privileged people are up here and all the underprivileged people are back here. I did that but I didn't do it you
know as a as a form of uh you know talking about how victimized people are
or things like that. I did that. Uh so people say, "Oh, okay. So not everybody
sees the world the way I do and you know people have their positions because of
you know various reasons that I know nothing about." The the the lesson I was trying to instill was there but for the
grace of God go I you know that's what I was trying to do. I wasn't trying to shame anybody when I did that. You know
it became a tool of that um later on long after I stopped doing it actually.
But um but yeah, I mean it's
part of me thinks that we may not even need an explicit DEI program or office,
right? Um as long as we embrace certain things like uh viewpoint diversity and the sovereignty of the individual um and
we instill an an appreciation uh for agency, personal agency uh and
things like that. I think I think those things can take care of a lot themselves. So, I'm not even sure we
need DEI in any way. What about a an office of viewpoint diversity?
Well, you would the entire college is supposed to be viewpoint diversity.
College of But it's not. Yeah. But it's not. So to say to to to reduce it to a
to an office is also a loss, you know. So uh I I want to get it back into the
you know I want to make it a salient part of education again. Yeah. Okay. Um
now I'll put you on the spot here a little bit, but maybe you've thought about this before. Uh the words
diversity, equity, and inclusion. Have you ever thought about other words that would replace those words?
Um, they don't mean what they say. No. Yeah. They they they've been tarnished,
you know. Um, we we need to put them to rest for a couple of decades. Uh, I I I
think and and and do something else. Um, and I mean, even the word justice,
you know, um, you I mean, and you know, that shouldn't be a bad word. Uh, but that also has, you know, negative
connotations right now, you know. So I don't know what terms to replace it
with. In fact, I mean that that actually bolsters my previous point that maybe we
don't need this stuff, you know. Um you know, we can't even find an alternative name, you know. Maybe maybe we should
just move on and uh and embrace uh some classical liberal values like free
speech and viewpoint diversity and and um sovereignty of the of the individual.
Well, I hope we move on to that. I I I'm concerned that we won't, but uh I I that
is the ideal. No question. Um the universities have have received so
much attention. I mean you look at what's going on at at Colombia, you look at uh you know Harvard in different ways
but the level of trust in any institution
now in the United States has dropped severely but especially in the academy
what can the schools the secondary schools the the uh the universities do to foster and
gain back trust? Well, first of all, let me say this. I'm
glad um trust has fallen in university. Something had to happen. You know, um
you know, something needed to crash and burn so that we can rebuild something worthwhile. Um what colleges can do is
be outward facing with their explanations and and who they are and what they are and be transparent with
who they are and what they are. you know, Colombia can, you know, um, have
town halls or op-eds or or things like that saying, "Here's what we are now. Here's what we do. Here's what was
happening. We've remedied that." They have to be honest about that and transparent. Here's what was happening.
We've remedied that, and now we're doing this, right? Um, I I think that has to
be explicit. I I think everything has to be outward facing right now. Um, a lot
of academics are used to speaking to other academics, right? We we write for
other academics. It's a silo. Yes. Yes. It's a silo. We got to stop that. We
have to write and speak for the public now. And and that has to happen yesterday.
Yeah. Because that that that that is a uh a type of uh what's the word I'm
looking for? It's I'll say nepotism, but that's not really what it is. It's it's an inbredad type of uh u publication and
and and communication because it creates a litism is one for one thing there's no
checking there's no checking and if there is a constant narrative and
religion so to speak within academia the only checking is going to be are you
stepping outside of the bounds of that. Yes. Yes. Right. And so it's it's if but
when you're writing to the public, it's like me putting out a video. I mean, we're going to get a lot of response on
this and it's going to be from a number of different viewpoints. They get to hash it out. They get to create a new
perspective and relationship with whoever is writing uh that that that
article or or paper or whatever it might be. That would be great. How do we do
that? Um well, I'm not entirely sure. Um, I I
think the Trump administration is dropping the ball on what it could do right now. It's taking a sledgehammer to
this stuff when it needs a scalpel. Um, in my opinion, and I mean the
the the administration could do a better job of saying exactly what the problem is, right? explaining to people, yes,
the words are diversity, equity, and inclusion, and it seems like we're going against good things, but we're not
because yada yada yada. There needs to be more explicit explanation of that, and that's not happening. This was a
perfect perfect opportunity for civil discourse uh for for for uh having
televising even uh academics explaining what they're doing and why, right? um as
a condition for getting funding perhaps, you know. I mean, I I'll go that far. I'll go that far, you know. Um but
that's not happening and and it needs to happen. I'm going to try to do my best to get something comparable to happen.
Yeah. The the the talking points it seems like for the administration are more against the group, you know, the
Democrats, right? They're fighting against that because they want to hold power and they do want to make the changes. But the messaging is Democrats
have been horrible. We're going to make that change. But they're not telling directly what the issues are, right?
What what are what is the underlying fundamental issues that have gotten us to this point?
Yeah, I agree. And it wouldn't be difficult. Yeah. No, that's a good idea. So,
you're a co-founder of of Free Black Thought. Yes. What are there any measurable outcomes? This is something I
follow on social media. Are are there any measurable outcomes or or developed
strategies that that you have used that you've seen some change in in response maybe even beyond culture but where
you've been able to move the needle a little bit? Um you mean regarding
viewpoint diversity within viewpoint diversity uh a a reduction in in DEI.
Um, I'm trying to work on that now, you know, and in fact, later on, right after this, I'm going to pitch um a a possible
event here at KO um that would focus on, you know,
classical liberal values and black Americans. So, what's the point of view
diversity? What is the benefit of it? Um, we're already doing a lot of these
things. We already appreciate um you know um sovereignty of the individual
and things like that. We already appreciate free association to help ourselves in the community. Um there is
a political stance that abides by those things. Um it's not that black Americans
are against classical liberal values or libertarianism. No one's made the case for them yet. You know, not not not well
anyway. And I I think that needs to happen. And I think free black thought is the perfect leader uh for that kind
of endeavor. You bring up agency again. You know what goes along with agency always is
responsibility, right? It's like I've got a responsibility over this agency, which
is the exact opposite. And when I think about victimhood, to me, that's the exact opposite of victimhood is responsibility. And if you are pushed
into a position, whether you're black or anybody else, that becomes a victim and has a victim attitude, you you are you
you in a sense, you relinquish you relinquish the issue. I I look at critical social justice and I think,
okay, well, what what is it really trying to accomplish? It's saying the problem is out there always. Mhm.
The problem is out there. And it's not that there aren't problems out there, but but it's never, well, what do I need
to look at? Right. Right. Where do I need to make the change? And and I kind of can relinquish my responsibility,
which feels great, right? It's I can relinquish my responsibility because I'm
I'm a victim. Yes. Yes. Uh it's not my fault that I'm, you know, that I, you
know, still live with my mom and I have no job. It's the society, right? It's it's it's racism. there's this
monocausal attitude about everything. Um, and we have to make responsibility
sexy. You know, we we have to say here here's what happens when you take your life into your own hands. Um, and it's
one thing for me to say that. It's another thing to, you know, for people like Kendall Qualss to say it, who was
born in poverty and got out of it and is is a model for exactly what we're
talking about. a black person who through a sense of responsibility uh rose to prominence where he is right
now and he may very well be governor of Minnesota. Yeah. No, that's correct. That's correct. Uh last thing I want to
go over here is the woke right. This is this is something that over the last six months
or so as it looked like uh you know President Trump was going to take power
of the presidency that has really started to flourish and and and
you know what are your thoughts first of all about using the term woke with the right and do you see this as an issue?
I think uh using woke uh is a sound rhetorical move uh because it speaks to
the irrationality and illiberalism going on on the right um as opposed to calling
it something completely different and having people realize over time that is comparable to uh you know wokeness on
the left. So I I'm okay with that move um as far as what we do about the woke
right. Is that what you were asking? Yeah. Do I'm just saying do you think it's an issue and is it going to grow?
Um it seems to be an issue right now. I don't know how much it's going to grow. I I honestly don't. Um but I I hope it
doesn't grow. Um for various reasons. A because that, you know, inherently would
be bad. But B, you know, uh, I'd find myself and people
who think like me or have the same political position as me would find themselves fighting a war on two fronts.
Yes. And uh, that does not go well, you know, as any history book will tell you,
right? Uh, so I'm I'm concerned about that. Yeah. Well, you look at the left and the problem there was that they
didn't fight both fights, right? They didn't curb the far outside end of the
left over there. They weren't checking it. They haven't checked it. And and so
that grew and and and of course has dominated our institutions now at this point. So anyway, Eric, really
appreciate your time. Love what you do. Um if you guys have not if the audience has not followed Eric before, you need
to follow him. Eric, where can they find you? Um well, you can Google Eric Smith.
That's the easiest way to find me. Uh, EC though. Um, yes. If you Google Eric
Smith, you'll get a lot of people including an author, you know, so we're, you know, but that's I actually know him
now. So that's that's funny. Um, but yes, EC uh you can also go to the uh KO
website and find me and a lot of uh what I've been doing in the past 3 or 4 years
uh is all collected there. So that's a good place to find me. Great. Very good. We'll put that in the description box.
Eric, really enjoyed speaking with you. Thanks for coming back on. Thanks for having me.
