So this is a discussion between Pastor Jeff Mulla and myself on the question the philosophical and religious question
of why God allows suffering we have different reasons for this we have different answers to the why but I think
some of the solutions are very similar but before we start into this I want to talk about scripture notes you've heard me talk about this application it is
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notes.com now here we
go all right welcome to Quick show my name
is Greg Matson and I am your host in this episode we bring back Pastor Jeff Mulla to talk about not a very light
subject Jeff this is why does God allow suffering in our lives but welcome back
to the show thank you so much yeah I'm glad to be here I've been uh working out the past few weeks to uh practice for
this heavy lifting because yeah this is lot a lot of uh complex thoughts to
maneuver through here yes there is okay so I want to start off with this um in 1981 there was a US Gallop poll that ask
Americans this this question if you could ask God any question what would it
be and one of the most popular answers to this poll was analyzed by both intellectuals and spiritual leaders and
it made it into a TV program that was called don't ask me ask God the show
aired in January of 84 across the US it drew 16 million viewers and it R number
one in its time slot and what was the question that so many people wanted to know it's why is
there suffering in the world and this is a question that is very deep philosophically it is uh I I believe
it's the number one reason why people actually lose faith in God um why why does God allow
suffering yeah I mean being in pastor for 15 years and walking through life
with people um this was just a common existential rallying point for people
you know as they're facing um sickness illness death divorce
um any sort of unforeseen tragedy or trauma it we we are constantly grappling
for purpose and meaning in this life that's what we're all wanting to have a firm grasp on and when um difficult bad
things happen to us directly or uh when we just see it happening in the world for example everything that's been going
on in the Middle East right now you you have these two camps both coming from
the same exact place and that is there's a lot of terrible things happening to people um whether it's in Israel or
whether it's in Gaza and um it just begs a question when we look around and we
see the sickness the death the war um it's it's a natural question that we all
ask why would God allow this I mean what you know we we all we all experience this it almost seems sometimes like it
is I I would suggest that in some ways it is if not the purpose of life it's one
of the main purposes of Life why why would it be that way why would God want
it this way yeah well from an Evangelical standpoint just from Protestant Christianity um we very much
uh adhere to this belief that this is a broken and Fallen World it has been since the Garden of Eden and um you know
when you get into the the Garden of Eden narrative which you and I discussed at length in a previous talk on on this
channel um the the paradise if you want to call it that or the the all
sufficient nature of that existence as it was with Adam and Eve in the garden was disrupted um when the enemy came in
and he deceived Eve and this perfectly balanced existence where all that was
needed for sustenance and for Reliance on God was was disrupted it was lost and
cast out of the garden so the the answer to the question why do
bad things happen will will elude us always it eludes everybody and it's going to elude Us in this conversation
but there are other questions about the what what is evil and why is it here we
can we can kind of apprehend a little bit and for us that's where it starts is that being cast out of the garden um
where God is life and God is um provision and God is protection when we
are separated from his presence we are separated from life so there's death we're separated from provision so
there's scarcity um we're separated from protection so there's danger and it's
not necessarily how God wanted it but there's a condition on this existence as
he gave us his image bears and that is agency to make choices a choice was made
that disrupted our holy Union with God which is why we now live in the separated Fallen World and that's what
we now have to Grapple with so that's that's not the question people are asking when you say why but that's when
you trace back to Origins why are we why are we in the position that we're in that's what is that's what is yeah
yeah so let me go to Paul here real quick and and and we you know I think
throughout this discussion we'll probably bring up a reference a few different scriptures here but this is King James version this is Romans 5 3-5
it says and not only so but we glory in tribulations I think the NIV says boast
we glory in tribulations also knowing that tribulation worketh patience so so
he's kind of bringing us down a path here that hey patience must be important uh and patience experience and
experience hope and hope maketh not ashamed because the love of God is shed
abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us now there's several different scriptures throughout
the Old Testament and New Testament that talk about the idea of adversity we can
go to the example of even Abraham right I mean how in the world is he going to get through this trial that God has
given him with with Isaac there's opposition and some for some reason God
is putting him through that trial right is there a purpose for each of these trials that we go through is it
something that says okay it's about our character is it something that is a matter of trying us is it uh is is there
a purpose for that environment that you talk about that is here on Earth yeah
and I think the I think a latterday saint perspective and you can correct me if I'm wrong might uh more closely tie
suffering and evil and some of that to trial than we might in a a broader
Christianity sense um because we we do believe that there's evil in the world
because this is the existence that we're now living in in this fractured relationship from God and Jesus came to
bring us back into reconciled relationship with him which is what we put our hope in in a future resurrection
and I I would say that um not every evil not every suffering that we experience
is necessarily a trial um though some of it is some of it is just the uh um the existential
reality of living in a fallen world now we do believe that God works all things for the good of those who are in him so
for example um if if there is a uh a
just any trial like a medical crisis that we have um we don't necessarily
always say well this is a trial that God has chosen to put us through rather we might say well this is the result of
living in a fallen World however we do anticipate God is going to use this for
the good in some way shape or form um you know for the good of the person going through the
trial or person who is going through the let's call the adversity maybe so you've got this uh in I think it's John chapter
nine you have the blind man um and he's healed and his disciples or maybe it was
the Pharisees asked why why was he blind in the first place was it his parents' sin or was it his sin and Jesus says it
it was neither the Lord allowed him to be blind for this moment so that he as
as this miracle takes place it would testify to the the the glory of who God is so in one sense I mean yeah obviously
the guy benefits from being healed um but there was even a greater purpose in
it so now now here's one thing I want to say that's really important being be
that as it may like you know that God can use and he does use a fallen world or adversity trial
for the betterment of us or the people around us that's not always very comforting you know sometimes it is but
sometimes it's not you know when when someone loses a small child you know ravaged by a terrible disease um you
could say all day long that God's it was for the good and at the same time a
child has lost their life and parents are now grieving and they live the rest of their life wondering what might their
life had been had they lived you know to a full adulthood so though that might be
true and that might give us some reasons um there's this whole other
aspect to it as to how do we still grapple with and
rationalize a pain that feels so unbearable and for for
me that's where I get to a greater Point um and this is I was going to save
this to later but this is kind of my main the way I kind of deal with this issue or this problem in the Protestant
world we call it the problem of pain or the problem of suffering because it's a problem in this Fallen World and that is
so often we want to know why you know that's how we started this conversation there's an entire book of the Bible
called job it may as well just be renamed why because that was really what was going on the why is this happening
we get a little Glimpse behind the the cosmic curtain as to what narrative was taking place in the heavenlies but it's
still pretty mysterious but job had everything he was one of the richest man richest men in
the East he loses everything and he's asking why his friends are asking why his wife is asking why and it's not
until you get to the 40s something chapter that God finally speaks up and
he never answers the question that they've been asking why the entire book
instead he replies with a series of his own questions and it's
essentially who Do You Think You Are are like I'm were you the one that was here when the Earth's foundations were laid
and separated the the sea from the shore and the stars and the sky and he's he's asking questions that really point to
the fact that there's a bigger picture and I think that the purpose of that is to help us understand that why is almost
always going to elude us when it comes to bad things happening it's too mysterious it's too Cosmic sometimes we
get answer sometimes we won't so then what do we feel like the Bible is clear on when it comes to how we face evil and
I think it's less about understanding why evil happens and it's more about our
call to overcome evil that we can see from Genesis all the way to Revelation there
how does overcome relate to why though I mean you're you're you're separating why and
overcome I guess from a Latter-Day Saint perspective we would see that as the same thing
sure yeah and again there's a couple different ways you can ask why like why does it exist in the first place what is
its purpose what does it accomplish in us and I think that's where you do get
into um I think suffering is meant to help us understand
our need for God and to make a space for Faith
um you know when when we even get into like just the existence of evil or the existence of pain um go back to the
whole garden thing that I was saying I often times times use this illustration that
um in the same way that like when you look at heat and cold there's really no
such thing as cold all cold is is the absence of heat you can say the same
thing about pain and sin and suffering um God
again is life like he is Holy he is perfect he's like heat pain and sin and
suffering exist where God isn't um and it's it's in those
spaces that I think the very first few passages of scripture in the Book of
Genesis tell us the character of God that he is he is existing in a space
where he's hovering over the surface of the deep it's formless it's void it's
chaotic and in that he speaks let there be and he then fills it
with his glory and his goodness and I I think the same thing could be said about our suffering and about evil and about
Sin that he'll hover over the surface of our ineptitudes and our deficiencies
that exist in this Fallen World and as his presence invades that space and he let he says Let There be most oftentimes
in the form of his son suddenly that formless void of chaos takes on new life
and meaning and purpose and structure and and I I think that's maybe a greater
answer to the character of God as it relates to what how he
uses uh that negative space and suffering to indwell us and to to um allow us to
experience his goodness in his presence okay so response to that then I want to go down a little bit more and and have
you respond to uh a little bit more of a latterday St perspective on this I think we agree with all of that the one thing
I would say is because I think we both agree well I know we both agree that God created Satan yes right so so there is
an actual active opposition in the
world where God has you know I I I think
together again this goes back in the Garden of Eden we think about Adam and Eve's choice and what they did but God
allows Satan to exist sure and and is there a reason for that at all BEC
because you know for us we would see that as well there's there's great purpose in
this right where where it's he's allowing the opposition to be active
yeah with us to try us sure so so that not not in a sense of I want uh you know
kind of some kind of a cold test but how are we going to use our
agency how are we going to develop that yeah um I mean first of all and I don't
want to get too far down the road here because it gets into uh a little bit of a controversial space
even within mainstream Christian thought but um what what is Satan who is Satan
so let's go to the Lord's Prayer right you've got these couple different translations is and Deliver Us from
Evil some translations say and Deliver Us from the evil one um now I hold the belief I believe
that Bible teaches that Satan is a person he he is um he is a being we'll
say that um there are some that might say well he he more represents the idea
of evil as opposed to an actual being yeah and I believe that he's a
being um but he exists in the spiritual realm he he exists in um you know Ephesians
chapter 5 talking about this isn't a battle of flesh and blood but a Waring of Prin principalities in the spiritual
realm um you see this at the beginning of job we we've talked about there is a
lot of mystery that exists there in that spiritual realm that we we just don't have a ton of insight into um as to why
he would create Satan knowing that he would Rebel knowing that he would wreak havoc on Earth
um though we we can't put a conclusive you know point to a conclusive page says
well this is why he did it we can see that from Genesis chapter 3 and Beyond this
adversary though he has his own agency to to a certain extent he's on a leash
you know God God is always in a way um his sovereignty is never canceled out by
Satan or by what Lucifer is doing but as as he does wreak havoc as he does tempt
as he does all these other things um it's an opportunity for a lot of things
one for us to see see a clear contrast of evil personified it uh allows us just
like Eve to have that agency where we are choosing um and Satan is also one that
in the end is going to be the example the punctuation point on God's Victory
and his sovereignty he will have full victory over Satan over all adversaries um so I think that there's
definitely purpose in that and it never cancels out God's sovereignty and yet it still exists in that spiritual realm
that whatever narratives exists there are are a bit mysterious and fuzzy okay
so I W to I W to I want to follow up on uh there was a quick thing we said in when we were
going over third Nephi together and it was we talked about uh I had mentioned
the fact that in in the creation process actually that we were likely involved D
actually in the creation process and we talk about how that was kind of can of worms between us and Etc but let me add
a little bit here to a Latter-Day Saint perspective or or or bring that in a little bit more where you talked about
job uh in the Doctrine and Covenants uh a book of scripture for the
latterday Saints mostly given through Joseph Smith um there is an interaction
between God and and really it's Jesus Christ and and and Joseph Smith while
he's in Liberty jail right and he's there and he's the Saints the early Latter-Day
Saints have been persecuted they've been moved and pushed around pushed from place to place they are currently now on
their way to navoo uh finally where where while Joseph Smith is in jail and the
circumstances are horrible that he's in with with a few of the other Latter-Day Saints there in Liberty Jail and he
finally just kind of cries out to God and says what in the world is going on right
and the Lord comes back to him and he says look and he brings up the example of
job and he says are you as job yet right have you gone through what job
has gone through and then finally at the end he comes back and says have you gone through what I've gone through for you
and I think from a Latter-Day Saint perspective that is very much informed Ms our
Theology of our involvement with these things where we are to become more like
Jesus Christ and he is the epitome
of one who has sacrificed and gone through everything Poss everything right
we believe it all sickness all afflictions all opposition all sin all
of the these things that he actually bore all of those things in Gethsemane and on the cross and then triumphed over
all of them yeah and for us that is not just a one-way
relationship right it is saying to us oh you're supposed to do the same
thing right I mean certainly not to that level we could never do that we don't have that kind of strength or power or
anything else we have to rely on him sure but for us that is he is creating a
pathway that allows us to go through opposition and trials and fail many
times but then repent and and to become more like him
but that that idea of bringing in Joseph Smith or or you or me or even thinking about uh you know when you think about
like Isaiah 52:7 of the you know how beautiful are the feet upon the mountains so you know that we would say
that that is not just probably Jesus Christ but that is the prophets and that is those that take on that
responsibility to try and be more like the Savior and publish Good
Tidings throughout the world how would you contrast that with Evangelical
thought um there well there's two things there that I think would be distinct from our perspective and I think the
first one is asking the question um when when we're being perfected you know Jesus is the author
and perfector of our faith um Sanctified when we being um changed into the glory
of of of God the image of Christ one degree from the next I think that's second Corinthians
why what is what what does that mean what does that look like I think
um I don't need to summarize what L same believes because you just did it from from our
standpoint we we believe that we are a distinct being from God God is is not like
us um we are like him in the sense that
um we were created in His image so out of everything that was created we are
most like him even more than angels and demons and all that other stuff uh Hebrews yeah that's
right and I mean yeah and and and Genesis you know one and two talks about
this humanity is yeah and and to your point we're the crown jewel of
creation so when we're cast out of the garden then and and sin enters our
existence that image is not lost but it is definitely marred you know a a right God's Right
image in us we as as image bearers that's what allows us to have this
relationship with him like no one else like nothing else um and that's what he intends for
all of eternity so when we're cast out of the garden and that image in him is lost then fast forward to the New
Testament then Jesus comes well Hebrews chapter 1 and Colossians chapter 1 verse 15 talk about
Jesus being the radiance of God's glory you know um I love Colossians 1:15 that
talks about Jesus is the image of the invisible God now here's why this is so important we were created in God's image
Jesus is the image so what that means then as Jesus comes to deal with our sin
problem that that which separates us from God and he then perfects us through
sanctification through Redemption through reconciliation by us being conformed
more more into the the likeness of Christ he's bringing us back to how we
were what we were in the garden as image bearers he's he's in a sense recreating
us that's what I talked about we're we're a new creation we're no longer this Fallen broken being no longer with the sin nature but he's created in us a
new nature and um so whenever it talks in the scriptures about us being
conformed in the likeness of Christ it's not so much about us taking on all of
God's attributes so that we can be like him in that sense it's more about restoring the image of God in us as His
Image Bears the only ones in all of existence so that we can have that eternal relationship with him in his
presence forever so I think that's that's one thing that's a little bit unique and and distinct um so as a
result we don't believe that eternity is filled with ongoing or the possibility for ongoing progression we believe what
Jesus has come to perfect in us that will be consummated at the end of all things is our Eternal State
forever and we are fulfilled and and at peace at Shalom and God's rest yeah and I think that that that latter to St
doctrine of you know as I've brought up several times with you of of of becoming right it it it informs our
Theology and Doctrine in terms of why we're here why the Garden of Eden was
actually part of the plan uh and why suffering is required of all of
us right so that we because it's the only way to grow what what would you say to in my mind and this is just me you
know but in my mind
suffering at least toward two different places one is others and and one would
be God so in other words suffering as a whole I
believe not only chisel us into more more the image of God I would say sure
but it also shows the love for God if we have that knowledge because it is easy
for many people to lose their faith if there's suffering And yet when we go
through suffering and we actually you know we kind of get to this point where we've got a a a watershed moment
sometimes with suffering where we can say I'm going to turn away from God I'm not happy with this how can there be a
God that would allow this or we go down the other side and we say I'm going to
actually turn even more to God and and become even closer to him and it's very
obvious throughout the scriptures as we see those that are tried and chastised and and uh U you know
oftentimes in the teachings of Paul you'll see you know the more you turn to him or the more you're chastised and you
turn to him it's almost seems like an Avenue to create a stronger relationship
with God so that's one side the other would be and we would agree with that by the way okay yeah the the other would be
um suffering for others right where where I would say you
know you're a father I'm a father you're a husband I'm a husband you are going to
go through suffering for them for your family and
and that can be from their adversity that could actually be from their Rebellion that can be from um just
trials that you are you know again I would say this is similar to taking on
what Christ took on in a very small way you're going to take on the burdens of
your wife and your kids because you love them and and I think that as we look at
that overall suffering and and turning to God through that suffering and then suffering for others
I would equate in many ways the idea of suffering actually with
love Yeah would you agree with that 100% I think both of the points you make
right there I we would be in lock step with I mean um Jesus quite clearly says like there's
no greater love than that you would lay down your life for your neighbor for
somebody else now I know often times our mind goes to death when we say that and that's that's a little bit elusive to
many of us because we don't live in a culture in a time where we're dying for one another uh except in unique
circumstances but I mean you can lay down your life in all kinds of different ways sure and we do it as fathers we do
it as husbands all the time I mean I can get really passionate about that right now because in the past two weeks I've
had to do it um and it is a profound um one of the deepest most
intimate things you can do for another and I believe like passionately that it
is reflective of the most pure Holiness of God and the deepest sense of who he is
whenever we're able to do that when we're afforded the opportunity to do that so um I would I would completely
agree with that and I think that it's um it's an important point because pain
always makes us self-absorbed that's not a bad thing it just does like you you had elbow surgery and whenever you were
experiencing that pain nothing in no one else in the world mattered for some at some points I would imagine it's like
this just hurts you know people that suffer with chronic pain like that's a it's so difficult to get out of that and
it feels like it's going to last forever um so we can get really self focus when
we're experiencing pain so to be able to endure someone else's pain for their
good for your love for them for their well-being that is straight up Jesus in the garden saying I don't want to do
this but if your will not mine that's that's him going to the Cross even though he knew it was going to hurt
that's God loving the world so much that he sends his only son I mean it's all the things that God exemplifies for us
and to us so I think that aspect of pain and suffering and the opportunity we have to emulate the love of God and the
life of others um is yeah a powerful point that I would I would agree with yeah so if I was to be more precise if
you know I would say the Pinnacle of God's love is his
sacrifice we we might have some variance on what that entails as far as the garden and the cross Etc but I would say
the Pinnacle of God's love is is the sacrifice that he went through and and
therefore it seems to me like that would be the best definition of
love right yeah I would I mean Romans says it like this is this is how you
know his love for you that while you were still sinners Christ died for us
there it is right there and and it's an action and I I I try I try to talk to people about this a lot because I think
it's you know in a modern Western World We oftentimes think of love as as
the feeling first sure I I feel love for you but usually in the scriptures when
you look at when they're using the term love they're actually talking about they're associating it with an action
right for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son right right
so so it's the love is Manifest through the action and and you know whatever you
went through in the last few weeks that that's it's your action it's what you're doing and choosing that is actually
showing the love right yeah I it's funny mention that it's reminded me of a sermon I preached I don't know five
eight years ago but um the Lord just kind of was showing me how often love is
seen in the New Testament not just just with Jesus but with others um it's exactly that the title of
the sermon was sentiment over sentiment and sacrifice like we have this idea of
sentimental love and feeling something deeply and having these like guttural you know um visceral reactions to
something that we feel strongly about but that's that's not really the love that we see on display like really
throughout all of the scriptures um the love that we see on display is a love that often times leads to sacrifice
um and that's that's our calling um this is Jesus saying you know even to bring this into this full context of suffering
and evil in the world Jesus says you know make no mistake you're going to face troubles in this world but take
heart because I have overcome the world so I I think there's something important too that that um even
though um you know we we might make sacrifices and we do so on behalf of
others we do so to um emulate God's love we're we're also not alone in it you
know Christ has blazed that trail God Is With Us in that and I think that's
another important Dynamic there that we're we're not left alone to face these things but he's been our model and he's
he's present with us as we face those things yeah now in latter in non-biblical
latterday Saint scripture we're told that one of the reasons that and this
actually might be in the Bible I can't remember but it's you know it's interesting when you're talking to someone who is like yourself who has got
the Bible yeah sometimes I can't remember exactly where the scripture is
yeah I'm like wait a minute is that in the Bible or is that in the Book of Mormon you know and yeah but uh the
we're told that the uh one of the reasons for suffering is so that there
can be judgment on those that would cause the suffering right so that is actually a
again we're talking about a matter of choice and consequence yeah and in this
Fallen state that we're in people make bad choices and cause suffering for
others right and so therefore this agency of of our reaction to the suffering from someone else is one thing
yeah but then there's the actual decision by others to be
malevolent and and cause suffering to others and one and and if that is the
case in other words there has to be a there's both sides of the coin on this
it's not just you that suffered but maybe someone else has caused that suffering on purpose and they also have
consequences and there also needs to be judgment how would you uh uh how would
you respond to that now I know I have the Bible memorized and all but um I'm
not recalling that idea being too prevalent I think it's non-biblical but yeah so um
I can I can see I can see where that point might be coming from that um
suffering does make it clear uh and undeniable when someone's causing suff like we know suffering is bad we know
suffering is not God's desire and design um per se at least ultimately so those
who then in interrupt God's design of peace and rest and fulfillment and cause
suffering I I I see the point of yeah I mean it makes it clear like it's
undeniable you cause suffering so judgment is due there um I do think
maybe indirectly it's it's pretty clearly spoken about you know when when we look at false teachers people who are
who are leading people astray um false prophets things of that nature uh those
those are the ones who in the end are cast into the Lake of Fire right the those who caused a type of suffering
when it comes to a clear understanding of who God is and what he's all about so it might not necessarily be directly
tied to just general suffering you know physical pain or emotional pain and stuff like that um ultimately suffering
can be defined by again go to the heat and cold uh illustration those who thrust
people into a space where God is Not and as a result they experience pain and turmoil and and injury um
are definitely due judgment so it might not be stated directly but I think maybe
um that point is tacitly spoken to throughout the scriptures okay let g go to another scripture here this is in
Psalms Proverbs 3 no wait a minute this is Psalms I think let me see no Proverbs 3 11-13 this is kind of an
interesting aspect of the suffering and and the response to this and and how
this might kind of work together here's what he says this is King James version says my son despise not the chastening
of the Lord neither be weary of his correction for whom the Lord loveth he
correct so here you're getting this pulling together of God's love with if
we're having to correct I mean there's some kind of suffering or or or
tribulation that we we would have to go through or repentance and change that we'd have to go through but for whom the
Lord loveth he correct even as a father the son in whom
he delighteth right so in other words there is the idea that that look there's
you have to go through some difficult things to try and change yourself and
your character to some degree because the Lord actually wants you to because he loves you yeah he wants to see you do
this right yeah now I and I don't want to nitpick at what you said but um first of all I agree with that I think we
would word it differently we wouldn't say say this is what you need to go through to change yourself um we would
say it's not we're not the ones doing the changing you know um whenever I discipline my child they're not changing
thems themselves I'm actually um doing the work for them and it comes at a cost
sometimes is painful um and this this specific passage of scripture and Psalm that you read is actually quoted in
Hebrews chapter 12 um where it talks about Jesus being the author and
finisher of our faith so we're keep our fixed on him we run the r with endurance and and so he is the one who is not only
the author of our faith but we see him as the one who is also the perfector in the original Greek is actually the word
that's tied more to maturation or or the fullness he brings it to fullness and completion um so our job then is like my
child when I discipline my child they're going to be best served to
quite simply submit to my discipline and watch how my discipline
will produce in them what they were unable to produce in themselves so and that might not have been exactly where
you're coming from with that but I think in principle we agree that some
suffering or something that's not enjoyable or something that's painful can absolutely and a lot of times is a
direct result of God disciplining us or or the way I typically put it is
creating something in us that otherwise would not have been created had we not gone through that now you're still
making a choice though aren't you I mean I I understand your children who are younger Etc but but you are I if I felt
wow I am the Lord really does not wants me to change the Lord wants me to do something different yeah I'm going to
have a choice as to whether I'm going to follow what is right and what is truth sure or
as we would put it be prideful and uh re against that agreed agreed
um yes so to that point I think I would agree and and you know there's there's really there's a couple different types
of discipline that we see in the scriptures one is instructive you didn't really do anything wrong but you're not
omniscient you don't know everything so God is going to correct or I'm sorry he's going to discipline us in a way to
just quite simply instruct um we might see that when Paul is on his missionary Journeys and he's
wanting to go in a certain direction of the holy spirit in a way makes it more difficult for them he puts challenges in
the place it just closes the doors they didn't do anything wrong it wasn't a punishment or anything he's just instructing them in a sense to be like
I've got a different idea here you need to take a different route um but then there is corrective discipline and that
is where yeah you you got this wrong you messed it up um and like a good father
is going to step in and say Here's how to correct that um in either case I
would say I would agree with what you're saying that though the father is the one
who is instilling principles that we must submit to um we still have to determine whether
we're going to submit to it in action what we're talking about earlier um or we're going to say we submit to it but
our actions tell a different story or we're going to just flat out reject the discipline yeah which is not good either
yeah another talk subtopic here on this um so there's also the thought that not
only is there why is there suffering but there is why do good people suffer yeah
right why do you suffer even if you're doing what is right so it's not a matter of correction from God it's not a matter
of a consequence because you're making the wrong decision you're actually suffering
regardless of your decisions yeah and uh you know I mean look again we've been
talking about Paul look at Paul you know Paul is Shipwrecked three times he is go
goes through massive tribulation in what he's doing I mean he's going against the world basically he's they they Stone him
you know he he almost loses his life a couple of other times why would someone who is in the service the absolute I
mean epitome of giving your life for the church and for God why would he face all
of this adversity I mean I think there's a couple reasons for that and first of all it's just it's a real it's a reality
of the world that we live in we live in a fallen world we live in a broken world and um it's filled with evil all kinds
of evil and what does it say in John chapter one and John chapter 3 um the
the darkness hates the light Jesus said that when he's talking to Nicodemus it it despises the light um in John chapter
1 it talks about how you know light came into the world and darkness tried to overcome it it didn't but there
is this constant Waring of light and darkness where God is the let there be light again chaos formless void darkness
and lightness has to flee from that so um but as a result like there's there's
contention there you're disrupting what was right like we go into a gigantic dark room I mean it really only takes
one match one spark one cell phone flashlight I don't know and it changes the whole like it can disrupt it right
and I think that that that's what we're up against in a dark and Fallen World first of all uh Asaf talks about this in
one of his Psalms in in the Book of Psalms just he's lamenting this fact like why do the evil Prosper why do the
righteous suffer this is not fair and that's where I think I would lead to the second thing uh and that is
you know not only is just a reality of this world and light is always going to have to contend with darkness and and
deal with it buffeting especially when there's evil involved but Asaf arrived at a place
where he's like because this this world and this existence isn't all that there is there's a bigger picture not just in
what's going on in the spiritual realm but even in the destiny and the end of all things there is a a larger
net uh math that's that's taking place here in what we're facing so I think
Jesus is the perfect example of that why didn't he call down a legion of angels to rescue him in the face of that why
was he willing to endure the evil that was being thrust upon him because he
knew the Eternal context for what he was accomplishing and there was a bigger
picture there and I think that's hard to do when we're going through suffering but it's it's still part of
the reality that there there is a bigger picture and I I think when it comes to righteous suffering um Jesus is our
perfect example like yeah when you do right this Dark World this evil world is going to hate you and you're going to
have trials and you're going to have troubles but take heart because I have overcome the world so keep your eye on
the Finish Line keep running we're going to get there yeah you know I think
uh you know people of Faith it's often been shown that people of Faith have a
they're usually happier right and I think that that thinking has a lot to do with because
it's how they're handling the idea of suffering it's saying this is a moment a
small moment in time for you right and and so you've got the idea of well I
need to be thinking in the present as far as live in the present but
understand when you have the understanding of an eternal perspective it really changes your
attitude toward things it's like I know this isn't all there is I know there is
more and not only do I have an eternity to look forward to but it's not like
this right right and how much does it teach us about the character of God the
love of God how much does it teach us where one thing we say a lot in the Protestant World especially in the
Evangelical world is you don't have to clean yourself up to come to church just come as you are God can handle it um
and at his essence he is a God that rushes into the mess he rushes into
chaos he rushes into just all of the the yuck and why does he do that well by
doing so he's showing us his love you know we're sin abound so does Grace I mean where Jesus is is running into a
dark and and broken world where he didn't consider equality with God something to be grasped but humbled
himself where he who knew no sin became sin so that we might become
his right righteousness this is where I take great comfort in suffering because there have been times where I've been in
uh Indescribable um pain not physical but just situational like wanting to run and
not knowing where to run to you know knowing I'm wanting to run but not you know my dad always says humans are
unique we're the only creatures that when we're in pain we run and and I think that the beauty of
what God displays uh when we are in that frantic
state of mess and pain is that he runs into it with us and that that's a beauty like Jesus was not static when he was
here I mean he was being persecuted he was walking the roads he was encountering the sick the
confused um and I think that that just tells us so much about the character of
God that he he enters into the mess that's the Emanuel God he and it's is isn't a great example for
how we can love our kids especially in a religious context where we might have this pressure to like hold a bar that
our kids must live up to you know to be a good Christian to be you know following all the Christian rules um
okay we can have Sanders for our kids but how about when they're a mess we enter into that mess with them and we
just we are present with them as they are trying to figure it out I that's one of the that's the other side of the coin
of suffering that allows us to not when we look past our pain to
see the tenacious pursuing love of God in our
pain well and and I think that there's also the perspective we would say also
the perspective of you know God is for us Jesus Christ right because
we're looking at different beings here in in a latterday saint theology but for Jesus Christ has gone through
everything and so in my mind when I look at that and I look at the sacrifice of of Jesus Christ I think to
myself he's already suffered this someone else who I worship has
suffered through exactly what I'm going through and overcome it yeah and and
that gives me great strength in understanding that he it's already been beaten even though I'm going through it
it has already been beaten and and therefore I can get through it right I I can pass through this yeah
I was looking at the passage look right now but that's that's Hebrews chapter 4 that we don't have a high priest who is
unable to empathize with our weakness but one who has been tempted in every way just as we are and yet without s or
as you're putting it he overcame and so then what is the result of that then we can draw near to God with confidence you
know knowing that whatever we're walking through whatever pain whatever suffering whatever Temptation that Jesus has
overcome and we can boldly go to the father and and um partake in everything
he has to offer Us in in this existence and in this life um yeah and I think it
gives again it gives another purpose for suffering for example if you had never
suffered and and had gone through adversity how can you teach your kids
yeah true how can you go through that and and talk about your kids or anybody else right offer good advice or you know
as a pastor speak to somebody in the congregation how do you how do you do
that without a an experiential knowledge yeah of going through these things yeah
and I think that's where we would probably go we would diverge a little bit theologically because we believe God
is all knowing you know there's nothing he doesn't know so he he knows before yeah we would agree with that yeah yeah
so um but but doesn't it send a strong message to us that he was willing to go
through it to show um the extent of his love for us and to to give us an example
of how to face those things um I mean Jesus Jesus's life it was really three
short years that was recorded and how much do we glean from the way that he faced evil suffering opposition and I
mean that that's everything that we go on that's everything we go off of is how he he face that stuff so um yeah I I I
think you know too as as I think about things that I've suffered through and walked through
um I I never get to the other side feeling the sense of accomplishment like
yes I did it just like you God or just like you Jesus but I go through it
almost just saying thank you for giving for for allowing me to maintain hope as
I walk through this trial and it's that much more affirmation that it's worth it
to keep our feet moving because what's the alternative like like you were saying earlier the alternative fine stop swimming float
Downstream see see where we end up and that's going to be a very lonely fractured broken place that's further
from Hope yeah great well I know that we have Divergent ideas on Theology and
Doctrine and purpose and maybe even to the answer of why there is suffering but
I think we both have the same solution to this and and and looking toward God
as and and an eternal perspective um we can both say that
without him right it's pretty hard to get through anything and and because of
him we can yeah yeah and I mean without him there is no meaning in our suffering
without him there's no hope in our suffering uh and those are the two things that are most elusive as we Face
trials and even people you know watching this video right now they might be going through something where their pain feels
meaningless or their pain feels hope hopeless and um you know just imagine a
world where we don't have this great high priest where we don't have a loving God who rushes into the mess um where
would we be then so I even though it's difficult and it's hard right now like that's the hope we have to keep our eyes
fixed on um and and truly without it I have no idea where I would be all I know
is it wouldn't be good so um yeah it's we serve a good God well Jeff appreciate
your faith and I appreciate your friendship and thanks for coming back on the show talk great to be here
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