TikTok Is Destroying Faith… So He Fights Back LIVE

Chandler Hendry debates faith live on TikTok. It's a laboratory where doctrines collide, and clarity emerges.

• Real-time debates with atheists, evangelicals, and ex-Mormons
• From defense to offense—why the strategy must change
• The Spiral of Silence and the rise of anti-faith content
• Why shallow theology is driving people out of the Church

 Raw Transcript

set up a microphone, put up a camera,
get online, and start talking and invite people to come in and challenge you on your belief system. That's what Chandler Henry does. And it's pretty compelling.
It becomes kind of this little laboratory of what's going on online between Latter-day Saints and other Christian denominations. Issues about
works and grace and salvation. Do you believe in a different Jesus? What about Joseph Smith? The Trinity. This episode
is brought to you by the Warriors of Tankham men's retreat and workshop August 13th to 15, 2026 outside of
Tilla, Utah. This is not a self-help course. This is not a rahrah. These are activities and instruction to strengthen
your identity and your purpose and to recharge you as a man of God to help take charge of your life, improve your
roles as an individual, as a father, as a husband. Have a fun time doing it and reconnect with that taos, that purpose,
that progression, that vision of who you are. I don't believe there's anything else like it. specifically designed for
Latter-day Saint men using restored scripture and words of the prophets as well as professional advice and guidance. Speakers include myself,
worldrenowned speaker Chadus, and others. Go to quickdia.com. Go to wot at the top there for Warriors of Tiana.
You're going to love this experience. Here's the interview with Chandler.
All right, welcome to Quick Show. My name is
Greg Matson and I am your host. In this episode, we bring on Chandler Hendry from Restored Truth. Chandler, welcome to the show.
Thanks for having me. Sorry to be here.
You do something really interesting and unique online. Can you kind of just describe what you're doing and and where are all these clips coming from? They're all over Tik Tok and Instagram. Yeah.
Um, I run a live where it's a Tik Tok live. So on Tik Tok there's a feature where you can do a live and you can have request buttons where people can come up
and just have a conversation with you about any topic you want to discuss as the host. Mh.
And so I just run a live on Tik Tok and then I post those clips on social media.
I post my conversations on YouTube and I talk about anything about the gospel of Jesus Christ and the restored church.
So So when you started doing this, who's listening? randoms. No, no, not a lot of people. Okay.
Yeah. Um I started doing this I saw uh back in like July of last year
um I saw the feature of lives on Tik Tok. Like I had Tik Tok. I wasn't really big into Tik Tok, but I saw I I slowly
started seeing this idea of there's people having theological discussions on Tik Tok while I was scrolling. I was like this is interesting. So, I like
would listen in to people talking and then I started to see a lot of um people from other faith traditions have
like LDS content up there and talk about our belief systems and they weren't talking to us.
And there was a couple here and there that would go up. And so that slowly dove me into kind of like a
a hole of trying to see what's online and what's not online on TikTok. And I was like, "This is interesting. I want to have discussions. I like this kind of
stuff." And so I started my own page and just started having conversations with random people. So So you open this up and they're sitting in front of their phone, their computer,
whatever, and they're just talking to you. Talking. Yep.
As they go, driving, whatever is going on,
whatever they're doing. Yeah. They can do anything and they're just talking to you. So I I've listened to several of your your clips, the shorts on this, and and and
you've got a decent background theologically. I mean, you obviously know se several things about not only the gospel itself, you've got a
vocabulary that is one of a uh leans toward theologian and and then you've got some understanding of evangelical Protestantism and Catholics, right, etc.
Where where did you get all this? Yeah. So, I did um I served a mission. I
left at 18 and I went to Louisiana and Mississippi. I went to the South. Mhm.
And that opened up a world of Christianity that I didn't quite know was there, if that makes sense.
Sure.
And so at this time in my faith tradition and in my faith, um, I wasn't necessarily convicted of something.
I was more so searching. So I actually on my mission, I had the opportunity to go and pause an an idea of church swap
to people that we were teaching and talking to. And so I went to a lot of different faiths on my mission.
And so I met with pastors, I met with priests, I met with um holy priests and um leaders of
organizations. And that's where I kind of learned a lot about their theological concepts and their positions. And so were they like open armed to talk to you
or some were, some weren't. Um I posited as the idea of I'm coming to learn and I'm not coming to convert because I want to
learn what you guys are believing. And when they see the name tag, white shirt and tie were young. Some were very open,
some weren't. They did not want us in the building, but um I always tried. Yeah. So,
so you're you're putting this live TikTok out there. How long did it take for you to start getting I mean you sometimes just sitting there talking and it's like is anybody listening? I mean,
obviously you can see some people are probably listening. Yeah. But did that that start to grow quickly?
Is it Yeah. Yeah. So, the first little couple lives probably got I don't know like 10 20 listeners because you have people who just scroll through TikTok that will hop in for a second and then hop out.
Um, as it's grown, I think I con consistently get two to 300 people on the live watching as people request up
and have conversations with me now. I've been doing it for How many of those are are members of the church, do you think?
Uh, I'd probably say I have probably around I would say around 20 to 30.
Okay. Yeah, 20 to 30 that I that consistently show up to hang out in the live like comment section.
Do you do it uh in a schedule? Are you scheduled on this?
No, I not yet. So, I usually just do it when I have time.
You start having these theological discussions. Did you know to start with that you were probably going to be put into an apologetic situation?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I knew that people are going to attack church history. I knew what people are going to attack the most commonalities. They attacked it on my
mission. When I talked to Protestant pastors, they attacked it. When I talked to Catholic priests, they attacked it.
So, I knew every which route that most people are going to take. Um, I wouldn't necessarily knew uh tell you that I knew all of the the ideas of apologetics.
Like, I wasn't huge into apologetics or the understanding of apologetics. I was just into the idea of people believe something and they defend their faith
for it. Um, slowly doing this channel, I realized that there is apologetics and the church has a lot of apologetic people online and I made some connections, but yeah.
And you use that as a resource and I would guess at times. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Give me an idea of maybe one of the toughest calls you've had or or conversations that you've had like hard to talk about or like
hard to uh hard to come out ahead of the game.
hard to come out on top, so to speak. Um,
that probably the hardest that's on YouTube because the guy who records it has like 50,000 followers. He hopped up there. He was an Eastern Orthodox. This
was when I was brand new and when I first started doing it, he hopped on it.
And that was probably a conversation that I wasn't quite ready for in regards
to how metaphysics play into Eastern Orthodoxy first instead of scripture. Mh.
And so he he's the the person I talked to is really good debater on how to get you away from scripture and into his metaphysical realm.
And so he was really good at that. Okay.
Where I like to stick with more scripture based on their positions. And so I fell into some like traps he laid of like get me away from the Bible and
going into met metaphysical realm of reality or things like that on how to discuss um the essence or the nature of
humans or or God. And so do you get more evangelical Protestants?
Do you get more Catholics? Do you get more exmos talking to you? What what do you think? Who who's listening the most?
I get a wide range. So, like in one night, if I'm if I'm live for two hours,
I'll either have two to five ex Mormons come on, I'll have about 10 Protestants,
I'll have one to two Catholics and maybe one to two Eastern Orthodox people. So,
the Eastern Orthodox bros, man, they love getting on there and battling.
They're all over the place and they're growing very quickly. Yeah.
What uh So, get again, walk through this scenario. You turn it on, you're live.
All of a sudden, people start popping up. Uh, who gets to talk? Who doesn't get to talk? I don't I'm guessing you're not talking to 20 people at once. Nope.
So, they're not talking 20.
Yeah. So, I mean, there's panels where you could like you could go online TikTok and you'll have people cuz you can like I think it's up to like 10 people can be on the live at once.
I don't do that because I would I would lose ultimate patience and just be all over.
Yeah. And control. And so, the host has control over the live. He can mute people. He can unmute people. He has the ability to control the conversation.
And so what I usually do is I usually have one request box and it's just a a conversation with one person at a time. Okay?
That way we can at least show some respect. There can be decent dialogue.
Sometimes if I have another LDS member with me in the conversation, I'll let them bring up another person within their faith tradition
so we can have a twoon- two conversation.
Um but yeah, that's usually how I function it. I don't.
And you're gonna go you're going to go through how are are you limiting yourself to time? It's like somebody else is going to be waiting to speak.
Um yeah. So there's request button and so the request button will fill up with people and so there'll be like 20 people
waiting to hop up on the live. Now I can invite them but I do it one at a time and so once I'm done with one person having a conversation with them I'll go to the next.
So you're bouncing all over the place in terms of faith. Yes. Different faiths, sex, denominations, topics,
topics. It's all over the place. Okay.
What has this done? How long ago? Six months ago. Six months ago.
What has this done for your own knowledge of the gospel and testimony of the gospel?
Yeah. So, for knowledge, I think it's allowed me to broaden the understanding
that I wanted to gain of other faith traditions. I knew a lot. So I studied for 10 years where I went to different
denominations on and off my mission seeking truth.
And so in those 10 years I did a lot of research into faith traditions. But it's helped me iron out other people's positions logically like how how do they
understand faith logically? What is the logic behind their faith tradition in regards to these tenants of their faith?
Salvation, right? Faith, covenants, um all of these different concepts. And so the knowledge of diving into those
conversations have helped me to research more in depth with their position and our position if that makes sense. So it's helped me help me enjoy the process
of seeking and and the the difference between a Latter-day
Saint uh um gospel knowledge soology everything compared to what you see out
there. Does that gap grow larger over time? Do you see it growing larger or do you see it shrinking over time?
The knowledge is for you. Oh, for me?
For you. Is that is that gap growing as you go through this or or is it shrinking? My knowledge.
No, the the gap between their gospel Oh. and our gospel.
Yeah. No, it's it's Yeah, it's it's getting wider and wider.
It's getting wider. Okay. Yeah. That that's the river. Yeah.
Yeah. because you know I do a lot of interfaith work also and so I'm finding commonalities where okay I think that we can shorten
the bridge right a little bit here but over time it's like well other places there's like no there's no
there's no way to shorten this there's no there's no bridge there's no bridge at all right so so that's interesting to me are are you
going through the different denominations do you find that some are more similar ilar to your beliefs than others.
Yeah. So you'll find a lot of times Christians will hate that I say this or credto Christians is a lot of times they
describe the trinity the way we describe the godhead. Mhm.
And then I tell them that hey guess what you fall into suit with Latter Day Saint theology. And the moment I say that they just get into denial mode even though
what they just shared with me what their beliefs were matched with ours. Mhm.
And so it's it's pu that's what puzzles me is I like they ask a question on our sotariology. I express it and they're like oh yeah I could yeah I kind of believe that.
I'm like well your faith tradition doesn't like I I don't know if you guys understand Catholicism. It rejects this
idea of sotariology.
I don't know if you understand Protestantism. It does not believe in baptisms for the dead and the idea behind it in regards to salvation. And so it's just interesting to me that a
lot of times a lot of people and and you find it in the church as well just people don't know what their faith tradition holds to.
And so it's like and so that's where I might see the bridge of like hey actually you believe what we believe just so you know. But every time I mention that a lot of time comes with
big resistance after. So do you get the same issues over and over and over again?
Yeah usually. So, I I think I've narrowed it down to there's It depends on who you talk to. If you talk to Catholics, you'll get the same five
things. If you talk to Eastern Orthodox individuals, you'll get the same three things. If you talk to evangelicals,
they'll list probably 15 things that they think are wrong with the church, and it's the same 15.
So, give me give me a couple of examples from each of those.
Yeah. So, so evangelicals, their whole point is works and grace.
So, they're only So, that's one of their things. So, how how do we view works? How do we view grace? um and prophets and then the priesthood.
So that's like evangelicals probably and then they'll all say polygamy or the church history stuff. Um Eastern Orthodoxy is going to focus on the
nature of God a lot how we understand fundamentally our nature of God. So they'll dive into infinite regress with
us. They'll dive into the different models that we've seen throughout our church history. Mh.
Um, and show how that doesn't make any logical sense in their reality and how it contradicts the second law of logic and all of these other things. Um,
Catholics are going to focus on the Eucharist. Latter-day Saints don't have a Eucharist model. And they're going to focus on priesthood, auxiliary, and authority within the New Testament.
um and and posit like identity of belief within pope and papal supremacy and things like that. So they'll attack the great apostasy the most.
Do you have an opinion on any of those that are closest to Latter Day Saint theology?
Um I think uh with evangelicals, we speak past each other a lot on faith and grace.
A lot. Do you do you think that's mostly Well, I would say it's both ways. Do you
think that's mostly a misunderstanding from an evangelical side of
their labeling what we do works on one side and maybe a misunderstanding
by Latter-day Saints for ourselves of what works and grace is.
Yeah. Yeah. I think it's twofold. I think we as members have struggled with identifying on a lay member level how we
work out those topics and I and so when we have lay members discuss with other members of other faiths and those people are also
not super wellstudied on the subjects. I think that's where you bring all of this into a live one time and then they're just going off about what their friend told them.
And so that's where I think a lot of times they speak past each other. Um,
with Catholics, there's no real bridge between how we understand the priesthood offices. Mhm.
So, um, in apostolic tradition and what that actually looks like. We have two completely different perspectives on that. Um, with Eastern Orthodoxy, we
actually follow suit pretty well with them with the idea of the nature of God in regards to our understanding of eternal progression. They limit eternal
progression because we're not eternal beings. Mh.
That's the only limitation between our idea of eternal progression and theirs.
So they will they will go as far as a finite being can go and expressing and feeling the energies
of God and interacting with those energies.
But because Latter-day Saints believe we're eternal beings, we're able to bridge that gap that they won't because they don't think that they're eternal
beings. So yeah, uh I I I've said many times if if I wasn't a Latter Day Saint, I'd be Orthodox. Really?
Yeah. I I think so. Uh just because I like a number of things that they do. Yeah.
Right. At least they have the theosis that they do. At least I I love the ritual. Yeah. All over the place. Uh I love the art,
you know. I I love the history of the Eastern Orthodox, which we don't usually get, right? We don't hardly hear anything about this. Uh so anyway, yeah,
I I' I'd put them close but uh but infinitely distant.
Yes. Yeah. Infinitely distant, but they are close in some ways. So there's there's some commonalities,
but most of the time it's it's maybe our bad job how at articulating what we believe because a lot of a lot of times Latter- Day Saints are more orthopraxy over orthodoxy,
especially within our ch church and our faith tradition and our history. And so we don't have a a besides our 13 articles of faith, the living Christ,
the family proclamation, we don't have this is the things that you have to believe in to be a Latter- Day Saint if that makes sense. Yeah.
And so you get some ideologies of members that might not necessarily we have a very limited core doctrine. Right. Right.
And which is good and bad. Good and bad. I agree. Yeah. Yeah.
Good and bad. Now, what about the exmos and what about the anti? Right. So let's combine and bring those together. I'm guessing you get calls from that you're
in conversations with these individuals also and is it the same thing there over and over as well or um yeah exos it depends on what exmo
you're talking about. Um if you're talking about ones that are have a lot of hatred towards the church they're going to bring in a lot of times the
priesthood ban and polygamy for whatever reason that affects them. Um,
what would your response or what kind of what kind of conversation are you going to have with someone like that?
Yeah. So, my my my typical route of conversation with people is why is that bad? Mhm.
I'm not even going to use objectively the scriptures. I'm not going to use my own faith tradition. Why to them is that bad? What is their epistemological
understanding of why you have an issue with that? Very good approach.
Because if they can't justify besides they just think it's bad then I don't need to listen to their opinion.
Mhm. Like I don't like if you can't help me understand why it's bad besides you just think it's bad.
Like that's all. You're just subjectively in your feelings even though you're not even associated with it. Um and so and then there's some EMOs
that typically are pretty good and they just want to have a conversation with you, but that's far and few between on TikTok. So, it's
either most of the time they're either mad, so they bring up most of the church history topics, um, or two,
they want to tear down my faith in some type of way. Mhm.
And that's when I think a lot of times I I don't stand for that kind of stuff.
So, how far are you willing to go with something like that? In other words,
let's say it's the book of Abraham and they want to talk about, you know,
the translation and Joseph Smith did all this wrong and whatever it might be,
right? How far are you going to go with that? And how do you handle a u a church history issue like that? In other words, I like what you said. Well,
why is that bad? I mean, for me, when I hear things like that, I I want them to explain themselves in some way. Yeah.
Okay. Explain yourself. What do you mean by uh he didn't translate this correctly? Tell me exactly what you mean. Right. Right. How do you handle that?
Yeah. So, when it comes to like the book of Abraham, I usually typically what I what I typically do with the book of Abraham specifically is I I I like to
just use like what our Egyptologists have said like I really like John and I really like Stephen. And so I have a lot of their content that I use when I have
those discussions. But before I bring that up, I help I first clarify what's wrong with the Book of Abraham. And most of them have no idea.
Most of them are just like, "Yeah, I just I heard it from Alyssa Grenfield's post that got 5 million views and uh she said the Book of Abraham's wrong and
Joseph Smith got it wrong and uh yeah, it's just wrong." And I'm like,
"Okay, how is it wrong? What about it is wrong?" And when you get into that where they have to state their position on how
it's wrong, it's very hard to find ones that actually know what he got wrong. If that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense.
Or what is perceived that he got wrong.
Yeah. And I think that's the right approach. So much of this is superficial, right? But what's odd to me, I mean, I know it's odd because it's so common, but
often times those same things, if they're an exmo, for example,
are the things that bring they say at least are what brings them away from the church. Yeah.
And it's like, wait a minute, you can't even explain this. Why did that bring you away from the how how could you
change your your your your entire world view, eternal world view without actually looking into it?
Yeah. Or give it up. Yeah. How how do you give something up on superficial knowledge that you have not done any study on? That's something I actually
really drill XMOS about and they really don't like me for it. Well, why do you think they do? Um, that's a great question.
No, I think XMOs in the realm that we live in today, it depends on age range.
I think I think my age range between 20 and 30 or 18 to 30 right now, it's all
influenced by what they see on social media.
Mhm. I think that creates so much misinformation and doubt that they aren't willing to either a do
the work or they've already had so much doubt for a year or two from just social media consumption that they don't care to do the work because they've talked themselves out of it.
Well, do you think that they are sometimes because it's so superficial if you're getting it from social social media? Are you kind of trying to steal
man your decision after the fact when you say if they're if they're talking to you for example and they bring up the book of Abraham or polygamy or this
priesthood man or anything like that if they've never looked to it in in the first place why are they bringing it up to you?
Yeah. So I ask are they steel manning themselves like this is why I left right and they're trying to steal man because there's a problem and you're like what's the problem?
Yeah. Well I I released a clip I don't know if you saw it about the book of Abraham. There was a guy who was like,
"Here's the things that broke my shelf when I was 18." I got a hold of the CES letter. It said these things.
And we got to the book of Abraham part and I'm like, "Okay, what about the book of Abraham?"
So, so I got about I got to the book of Abraham and I'm like, "What about the book of Abraham broke your shelf?" I hate that phrase.
Um, and he's like, "Well, Joseph Smith got the translation wrong." I said,
"Okay." And he specifically talked about the faximiles. So then he said, "What faximile does Joseph Smith Well, he didn't say the factimiles. You just said the translation.
Yeah.
And so I said, "What what fax simileies are attached to the book of Abraham?
Which one?" And he's like, "What's a fax simile?" Mhm.
And I posted that clip. Now, we went back and forth and I shared a like a book to go read the introduction to the book of Abraham by John and Stephen. And
I was like, "Look, if you want to learn about the book of Abraham, here's a good introduction." And so, but I I I asked that question. I just I sat there and
he's like, "What's a fax simile?" And I'm like, "How do you not know this thing that broke the shelf?" M and I get that a lot with members that
have left the church, how Latter Day Saints understand faith. I get an ex-MO coming up and just saying stuff of how we view faith, how do we view prophets, how do we view covenants, how do we view salvation? And I don't know if maybe it's a lack of our job as members as a
portraying what we understand those things are or people's ability to listen. I don't know what that is, but most of the time they just don't know
the actual that's sad. Yeah.
I mean, seriously, that's that's that is a problem that I think personally I think the church is in a difficult position, right? You've
got a global church that is baptizing like crazy right now, but also lo losing certain segments of the church, right,
at the same time. but they're baptizing like crazy, which means you've got this growing emerging group of people that need as much milk as possible, right?

And then you've got a mature uh a a a so-called theologically mature faithful
mature group of people that need some meat. Right.
Right. And and you don't get that from the church. and maybe they don't feel that's their job and they're, you know, you've got correlation everywhere.
That's a really hard thing to to to do.
I don't think we do a very good job of teaching. I don't I don't think people really understand what faith is. I could line up 10 Latter-day Saints at random and have them tell me, "What is faith?"
And nine out of 10 of them are going to give me something along the lines of it's belief.
And that's that's sad. That's really really sad to have that. Right. So I I I I empathize with an exorman in that sense.
Yeah.
In the way that because I don't think that they've got some of the solidity or uh uh the solid principles of the gospel that they can grab on to. It hasn't been taught to them in the first place.
No, I agree. I I think and I don't know the answer and I don't think I think the church is evolving and trying to find the answer and they're trying their best
to to figure it out. But yeah, I think we failed to provide meat to ones who need it because we have so many ones so many people that need the milk.
I think that podcasts and the internet, even though you're going to get a spectrum of different information,
right, I think that helps a little bit. No, it helps a lot.
I mean, there are people that can find certain channels that it's like, "Wow, I never knew this. I've got something that I've been dying for this kind of thing,
you know, and they're able to finally grab that. It used to be that the church provided that right early on. I mean, you used to have Nibbly writing priesthood manuals, you
know, for everybody, and you'd study for the year. You'd study Hugh Nibbli's priesthood manual, right? uh which is probably going too far the other way,
but uh um yeah, I think it's it it's a very difficult position for for the
church to be in with the XMOS. Um go ahead.
Yeah, I was just going to say I empathize if that's if those are the reasons they left. Mhm.
But I what I won't let them do is only blame it on that. M mhm.
So when I'm having a conversation, I won't let them just blame it on that because I could have left if I didn't desire to find truth.
Well, sure. We've all gone through a doubt here or there, right?
We've all gone through the same more or less process of learning. We've all been to, you know, most of us have been to primary. Yeah.
And and young men's and young women's,
right? So, we've all been in the crosshairs of the midst of darkness, you know, more or less. So,
why did you choose this? Right.
Right. And I I Yeah. And so, I I understand a lot of times why people leave in that
realm of thought, but they there's always a level deeper that actually got them out the door, if that makes sense.
Yeah. Now, one thing I really like with what you're doing is this. You're part of a a growing mass of a choir of voices
online that is clarifying doctrine and beliefs of Latter-day
Saints. There is so much I mean, if you want extra views and clicks online, all you need to do is put # Mormon. Oh my gosh.
And and and you're going to get a bunch more, right?
Say what we believe that we don't believe.
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. It's like it's everywhere. So, it's and we're still drowning in it, but there is a a growing
army of voices online and it's happening very quickly uh of people that are willing to stand up, talk about these
things and clarify things. And it is to some degree push back. But but mostly to me it's it's clarifying who we are and
what we believe because 99% of the world even if they've been around and had friends that are Latter-day Saints, they really don't know what we believe.
No, they don't.
And and they assume that what they've been told is true.
Right. And so now you've got this light that is starting to go out there and pierce through the veil, so to speak, in
so many different areas that that that's starting to change a little bit. You've got like a Jacob Hansen who's he's
actually got a seat at the table of with a evangelicals and Catholics and
others where he's actually debating Latter-day Saint theology with very high level influencers, right? And that would have never happened 5 years ago even.
No. Yeah.
It would not have happened. It's like no, you you stay 10 feet away, right?
You're you're not accepted here. But now those things are changing. What do you see that as the way I look at it right now is that
we are at the very very tip of the iceberg as to where this is going and and and having LA faithful Latter-day
Saints voices online that are allowing people to pull back the veil that's been thrown over them, this mist of darkness
that has been a confusion about who the Latter-day Saints are and actually be able to show people and tell people, "No, this is who we are and this is what we believe.
Do you think that even in the last I mean honestly in the last 6 months since you've been around even it's I've seen it just start to explode. Right.
Yeah. I think there is a growing voice of Latter-day Saints sick of social media. That's what I'll say. And what they see. And what they see.
Yeah. And I think they have every right to because we've been losing the social media game for 40 to 50 years. Yeah.
Like this what we've experienced the last 10 years in social media is is from the last 30 years if that makes sense.
It's like the the 20 years before it and it's just got I feel like Latter-
Day Saints finally just got to the point of this is how I feel. I finally got to the point of I I was so sick of seeing a
pastor talk to 18-year-old missionaries have gotcha questions. The 18-year-old missionaries don't know how to answer.
They look stupid. The pastor makes an edit to show that they're stupid and then posit that Mormons believe that the
father was a mortal sinner and through his God gained godhood and then throw a whole bunch of other ad homonyms to the idea of what we believe.
And you watch that once on TikTok and the algorithm is going to send you 40 more. And that's what I saw and I was just I was done with it. So I was and
then I and then I look on Latterday Saints and there was podcasts and there was people that did defending
but they did defense in a way that was just responding if that makes sense.
They're like actually this or we believe this or their goal was to help members
of the church understand the attacks where I took the position position based on what gifts I feel like I've been
given by God and my own search is let me present you a case of why you should be a Latter- Day Saint instead of these these other faith traditions.
And that's where it has to go, right? In fact, I was just having this discussion with another online influencer a couple of days ago and I said, "Look," because
we were talking about peacemaking and uh I said, "Defending the faith is great."
Fine. and and we have to go through a period where to some degree where we haven't even had a voice that we are in
a position of defense to to uh um react to some degree of what all of the attacks all the stones that have been
thrown for 200 years right at the Latter-day Saints. However,
you never want to be in a position of defense if possible. Never.
It's not smart. It's it's uh you've got uh um
a reaction is never going to be the same as simply spitting out truth,
right? And and and so you've got to be you've got to have the higher ground.
You've got to be able to come from a position not offensive, but on the offense,
you've got to have confidence to to not allow the niceness culture of Latter-day Saints take over a conversation that
isn't about being nice. It's about having respectful dialogue. And Latter-day Saints don't know how to do that.
No, they don't know how to do it because they have taken niceness and politeness and put it up at the highest levels of their values hierarchy.
Right? It's like this is the more godlike than saying what is true, right? And some people won't like to hear that,
but it's true. It's And to the point that the niceness, which by the way, you're
never going to hear the brethren talk about niceness as a virtue ever. They'll use the word kind, but they will never use niceness.
It It's to the point where you're using niceness as a mask.
Yeah. to avoid conflict to avoid conflict. And that is not a virtue.
It's not a virtue. And we're steeped in that in our culture as Latter- Day Saints, which is very unfortunate. It is.
And it's going to be hard because coming out of that, you're going to have some loose cannons that are going to be it's it's all contention. Okay. Then I'm going to go out and I'm going to rattle
all the cages and and and you know, you don't have to do that, right? there is a way to go forward to be on the offense
and still understand you're going to have conflict, right? I mean, as you're if the world drifts further and further
away from truth and the principles of the gospel and you're engaging with that at all, well,
you're going to have conflict. There's no way around it. You better expect it. You better expect it.
Or else you're going to get clipped as being the nicest Mormon that doesn't have an answer from Pastor Jeff.
Yeah. and you're going to be posted online for millions to see that we are too nice to have any answer to any question and we don't know what we're
talking about, but we're nice people and I'm done with that. So,
yeah. Yeah, Pastor Jeff, I will say I will support Pastor Jeff and I'll I'll go into that with you in a minute, but not not not LA not uh uh Burger King Jeff from Apologia.
Oh, that Yes. Yes. Yeah. He's in my He's in my backyard in Arizona.
Yeah. Um, what I see right now is the needle has just started to move. Yeah.
Right. In the last few years, just just just especially the last year, but it's just starting to move. Where do you think this goes? Is that needle going to
keep moving? Is there going to be a harsh reaction? Because I don't think there's going to be We're already getting the harsh reaction. We've already had it. We're so used to it.
Yeah, we are.
Is that needle just going to keep moving?
I think it'll keep moving. I think more and more Latter-day Saints will understand our faith. More and more Latter-day Saints will have courage to finally stand up. More and more
Latter-day Saints will start to go on the offensive. And what I mean by the offensive is no more niceness. You don't have to go super aggressive,
but you have to be aggressive to truth.
Mhm. And and that's what is going to be a requirement if we think to get to the gospel to every nation, kindred, tongue,
and people is we have to be willing to be in a contentious environment to proclaim truth because the people in the
restoration did it the first 30 to 50 years of the church when it was getting restored. They had to do that.
Show me an example in the scriptures where there's not conflict anywhere. Right.
Right. And it's like, okay, I I can do this. I'm ready for this. I I I have something I've talked about for a long time called the spiral of silence. And the spiral of silence is a social theory.
Mhm.
That says that um I mean it's pretty simple and common sensical, but it's,
you know, if you don't say anything, the the louder voices will get stronger and stronger and and and and command the narrative, right,
and the attention, right? So, as that grows, you you become even more quieter, right?
Right. And and so it it just becomes this spiral that gets worse and worse and worse and worse. Then you adopt that spiral.
You adopt it and and because at that point it becomes a matter of belonging. Right.
Right. Oh, I'll you know, can't beat him, join him. Right. But you didn't even try to beat him. Right.
Right. It it's it's a uh it's very similar to Lehi's vision of the great and spacious building. Am I am I going
to grab this fruit and stay here and let the people mock and point at me if necessary? Because that's what you're doing online if you're going to expose yourself, right?
Oh, yeah.
Or or or do I just I understand this is what is real. This is what it is is Jesus talked about this a lot in the New Testament.
And are you willing to stand up for my name? Right.
Right. And stand up for me. And of course, again, you've got it in the uh in the vision of Lehi where there will be fingerpointing, but you know what?
It's not as bad as you think it is. It It's just not. You get used to it. It's not that bad.
Yeah. It's It maybe may I don't know. I I've I've done work so in my life to where you can't care about what other
people think about you. So, I think that sometimes gives me an advantage just right off the bat. So, yeah, it does. That's I am the same way.
I have dealt with this for years and but I think one of the the biggest niche or not the biggest niche the biggest
push back I get is a lot from members a lot of outside of people who are like send me horrendous stuff right
I a lot of people that message me or comment on my videos or it's it's this idea that we have to be nice
yeah that's so sad but it's not surprising you know or it's like there's a live right and I'm having in a conversation, it's getting a little contentious and there's
emotion involved because where you're challenging each other's worldviews. Mhm.
If this is my worldview and you have your worldview and you actually care about your worldview, emotions will be there. Mhm.
Now, we can hopefully contain our emotions and try to respect each other's emotions, but emotions will rise as more challenge is there.
And you have people like, well, spirit left the window. I'm like, "No, the spirit is so present to truth that it will not leave." But you have to be
willing to listen and have discernment to what is true and what isn't. And the only way to do that is through that
conversation and sticking through that conversation so you can listen to the Holy Spirit testify to you what is true
with what's being said. Because if you're always running away from that feeling of contention,
I I just feel like you won't gain a strong enough testimony to last.
Okay. So, what do you think is peacemaking? Yeah.
Oh, let me let me put it this way. What What do you think is the proper approach to peacemaking? Um, I think peacem I think it's twofold.
I think there's there's peacemaking in the idea that you have to build, which is what Jacob Hansen has done really well. He's provided a relationship with other people of other faith traditions.
So he got into the door if that makes sense which is what you shared. And then the other side of peacemaking is
giving the world what we actually believe and not backing down and not putting on the mask. Removing the mask
and saying I view you as though you are a brother in Christ but I will not back down from my faith tradition.
And if you confront my faith tradition,
peacemaking to me is defending that confrontation and then going on the opposite of showing why I believe this
and how your faith tradition might not align with this in my mind and put you on the defensive so that you
and I and the people listening can determine truth.
I think that's very wise actually. I think I think that's right. I think that it's got to be it's not only a matter of having an
opportunity for the spirit to to speak to you. It's a matter of being proven. Right.
Right. You you have to be proven in some way. And if you're running from that constantly,
you're not actually putting out there in words articulating what you at least think you believe. Right?
There is no proving of this. there there is no, you know, molding of yourself.
You are simply superficial and culturally a Latter-day Saint, right? That's it.
That's it. So, that's that's got to be done. And it's got to be, you know, I had uh and there is a way to do this in a peacemaking way. And I I I I've done
so many interviews this week, I can't remember if I've already gone over this or not. I think I have, but it'll be spread out. But, you know,
if you go back and look at Melkisedc,
right? Melkisedc means the king of righteousness, right? He was what what was the city he was king of? You know,
remind me. It was Salem. Salem. Okay. So, that's peace. Shalom. Peace. Salem, right? So, he's king of of peace.
And he was called the prince of peace before, right? It's titled for Jesus, right? So, what does that mean? Well,
Salem was a very unrighteous, iniquitous place. He influenced it enough to create a a place called peace, right?
Peacemaking. Now, how does that is that done? Is it is it just a matter of let everything happen? Is it all tolerance
or or is there I'm aligning with truth and I'm trying to help others align with truth and we're not leaving truth and
therefore we can have one heart and one mind which is a righteous heart and a righteous mind that's peacemaking and of
course Christ is the new misdc right he is the prince of peace so it's an
invitation to all to come to peace which is a certain order. Mhm.
And that's peacemaking. See, that to me is peacemaking. Yeah. It's not lack of conflict. No, it's not.
That has in fact you read the scriptures. Yeah. There's no every every major
prophet in the Book of Mormon faced conflict and overcame it. Dealt with conflict. whether it was their family members that they had to deal with with
ideologies and con confronting those ideologies or other nations that they
had to confront and testify of truth every single time they dealt with conflict. There was no situation where they didn't deal with conflict.
And so if you're trying to emulate the scriptures, how should you act? What should you do?
Right? It's funny because and I understand that there's, you know, when the rubber really hits the road, that's that's what you're getting in the scriptures. You're getting the difficult times. You're getting the struggles.
You're getting the iniquitous times where prophets have to create miracles and there's, you know, a a a plea for
repentance and change. And that's really more what reality, I think, really is is getting to that point. And and uh but
that's that's the story of the scriptures over and over and over again is how are you overcoming these problems? And what is being said by the
prophets? They're obviously not running except for Jonah at first maybe. You know, you're not running from conflict. You know,
you're uh you're you're stepping into it if if necessary.
Um I asked where is all of this going? You you've got something else also you're working on. Is it called mission prep?
Tell us about that.
Yeah. So, part of the idea is is doing what we've talked about.
Missionaries need to understand the basic tenants of these concepts like what is faith? The tools.
Yeah. What is faith?
How do Latter- Day Saints view faith compared to other people? Mhm. How do Latter Day Saints view covenants? How do Latter Day Saints view grace?
Like what are these basic tenants that Latter-day Saints have an understanding on? And I think missionaries need to be more equipped with personally. Mhm.
Um, and I personally think the MTC does an amazing job at cultivating an environment to get missionaries excited for the work if you're English speaking.
And then they do an amazing job at getting people ready to learn a language. Mhm.
But when it comes to the tenants of the faith and how to articulate them, I feel like sometimes missionaries are at a disadvantage and it takes 6 to 12 to 18
weeks to get to a point that they feel confident in articulating these things because you got your first uh two uh transfers that are with your trainer.
Right. Sure.
And so I want to help missionaries have a it's called mission prep and it's once a month and it's for 12 months. And so I
want to have this mission prep be a launch pad into excitement of the MTC,
but to where they can be confident going into the mission field and maximize their time with their trainer instead of start from basics with their trainer, if that makes sense.
Yeah, that makes sense. And wouldn't that solidify their testimony and conviction as well? Oh, yeah. Yeah.
It's it's I again I I I think that the getting down to the very fundamentals of the gospel
and understanding it I don't think we do a very good job with and maybe it's just because it's easier not to right it's
easier in Sunday school not to get down even into a philosophical level or a uh just a very fundamental basic what is
this again if you asked people what is you know I could ask you or or uh our friend here or anybody else said, "What what what is love? What is the love of God?"
I what what are you going to get? A bunch of different answers.
A bunch of different answers. And it's like, no, there are some real things here that that you if you understood the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Well,
um is it a feeling?
Is it is it action? Is it more of a verb than a noun? What what is this? What is the law? you know, just basic things
about the gospel that we seem to be we're kind of hovering around up top here, you know, just on a superficial level sometimes.
Yeah. Yeah. Our our ability to convey epistemology is not good.
It's not it's very bad. Okay. How do you change that?
It's a great question. I'm Good thing I'm not an apostle, right?
I don't know. Um I the way I'm doing it is I'm articulating how to defend and
show um well how to defend and also be on the offense on how to teach through articulation the concepts of what we believe.
Yeah. So, how to actually articulate the epistemological standard of faith in Latter-day Saint,
grace, covenants, the Godhead, what all what these things are providing a way to how to articulate
those concepts because sometimes you have really good podcasts that you might have a theologian, right? I'm sorry,
theologians and lay members. Yeah. Like it's it's hard.
Yes. And that's not against the theologians because they're really smart and we absolutely need them or scholars.
You're you're you are touching on something right now that I am trying to work through very hard on both sides of that because it's
and so I think you need people and and um because I'm not a massive theologian but I know how to break down a
theologians or biblical scholars paper to basic understanding. Yeah.
And I know how to articulate that basic understanding. And that could be just through what I've done for work in life.
And so it's provided me an opportunity to be a vessel for God to articulate to lay members and to pe other people of other faith traditions the basic
understandings of what we actually believe about these subjects and then to go into depth if we need to. Yeah. So,
well, I've been doing this for eight years, and the exciting thing right now is that just in the last year or 18 months, just
all of the younger voices that are finally showing up and there's so many,
you know, that are finally showing up because that I think that is needed more than anything else. It's just a bunch of young voices where people have not had
the fundamentals that they've understood them where they're more influenced by their friends and and t Tik Tok and the
rest of social media. to have people online, young people online with conviction and articulation,
you know, is is really it's been an imperative for a long time, but it's really exciting to see and you're a part of that and really appreciate that.
Yeah. Thank you. Where can people find you?
Yeah, so you can go on Instagram, Tik Tok, and YouTube and X Restored Truth is the name. So those are the same channel,
same name on every channel. So awesome. Yeah, Channer, thanks so much for your time. Really appreciate it. Yeah, thanks, Greg. Appreciate it.