so this is a fun interview with Hayden Paul from The Stick of Joseph and his wife Savannah who are a young married
couple with kids we talk about family we talk about the direction of our culture and how you're going to bring up kids in
an increasingly difficult environment they both articulate their ideas very well I think you'll really enjoy this I
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[Music]
go all right welcome to Quick show my name is is Greg Matson and I am your host in this episode we have brought on
Hayden Paul from The Stick of Joseph and his wife Savannah welcome to both of you
thank you excit to having here so we're going to talk a little bit about gender roles we're going to talk about family
we're going to talk about the craziness that's going on in the world right now I know that you guys had seen an episode I did recently that was on uh the
mail in the St George area who was on the loose had killed his parents and
then everyone was looking for a woman it was a very strange thing we have this breakdown of gender we've got this
breakdown of really to the point of biology and sex um how do you guys as
not fairly new married couple wander through this Wilderness that this
craziness that we are living today well I think first and foremost we
abide by the family of proclamation to the world and it's something that has become controversial obviously but we read that
document and to us that is inspired re revelatory um scripture and so to us we
the hard part is how are we going to teach our children to live in a world
that completely disregards the family proclamation of the world to us it kind of seems common sensical um but that
said it it we are influenced ourselves and we've realized that as we've been married and as we've tried to find roles
that even we have been influenced by this world and we're like having to step back and be like wait a second what am I
saying why are we saying this it's it's kind of crazy yeah there comes a point where you have to decide am I going to
be trendy or am I going to follow truth because they're never going to be the same thing and so as parents we like you
can definitely say we're not experienced parents we have two kids three and 18 months and I'm pregnant with our third
right now so we have been parents for 3 years and even now we're thinking about like preschool and eventually our kids
will grow up and and be educated by other people rather than just us as their parents yeah maybe that's if we
decide to but um there is so much in the world that is going to teach our kids
something and so we're like okay what do we believe what do we want to teach our children what is truth what comes from
God and so that's just something that we've had to have a lot let me back a little bit for both of you so you guys
are in your 20s still right MH okay so growing up you started to get some of
this craziness right you're going you know there's always been issues there's always been sin but you know back in my
day back in my day you know all the way all the way back in my day you know we had these traditional sins of sex drugs
and rock and roll yeah it's like that's what you dealt with right and now there's like this crazy Pandora's Box
that's been opened up and and there's so many other issues to deal with um how
did you get to a point where you're at now where you're like okay well we're going we are we're already in the mold
getting married here of what we want with a family that is in
line say with the proclamation on the family yeah I feel like first off one
thing I do want to say that I think is an important difference between your era of growing up and kind of our era in our
you know 20s is that sex drug and rock and roll was never like this it was
never presented as virtuous necessarily it was always rebellious right but it was like be a rebel the problem with is
that that all of these things that are confusing are presented as virtuous that
are completely undermining the natural order that God has set up and and the roles that God has given both men and
women and that's what makes it so difficult where and I think a lot of it plays on
uh feminine sensibilities for example Savannah and I have had many con uh conversations and I think one thing and
correct me if I'm wrong babe but I think that there have been times where you found yourself saying things because it
felt right because it because it's presented as like being kind and virtuous and then you kind of look back
and you're like oh maybe that isn't what I want want to believe is that is that true yeah I'd say that's probably true
give me an example an example I don't even know like it's it's really hard and I don't want to get us in too much
trouble on the on the internet but we've had a lot of a lot of hard conversations
specifically maybe when it comes to gender roles right um as we tried to figure out and you don't really have to
figure out gender roles when you don't have kids because it's like both of you can have a job you can go out you can
make money whatever but the second you have this child that you are in charge of you have to start dividing and
conquering and that's where I think we had a a lot of conversations and I think you had kind of a big mind change on on
how we should handle those gender roles do you want to talk about that for a little bit yeah I wouldn't say I had a
huge mindset shift um I was raised in a very traditional family we had six kids
we were all we all are still active in the church um my dad was a stake president and so it was in Illinois so
it was a little Church culture than where we are now in Utah but um for the
most part I feel like watching my mom be a stay at home mom that was something that I wanted to do and it is still so I
am a stay-at home mom and I love being a stay-at-home mom um there have been
things I don't even know how to put this things that I've had to change my
mind on I think maybe I at some point had been a little bit influenced by the worldview of like what is feminism and
what is um like yeah the gender roles but also go be a powerful woman go be a
boss bab go be whatever girl power exactly and I never got to the point of like oh I don't need a man cuz I always
wanted to get married and have kids like that's always been important to me thankfully but that there have been
times where I've had to kind of take a step back and say what is the world trying to teach me about this about my
role as a woman about more more than just my role but about my femininity
like what does feminism actually mean and I've had to take a little bit of a
step back and say well what does God say about femininity and what is divine
femininity and what is that like what inherent gifts have I been given as a woman from God that he wants me to use
in my family um I hesitate to really break things up super super black and
white because I think that the way that any woman can fulfill her feminine role
and any man can fulfill his Divine role or his Divine masculine role is by counseling with God and figuring out
exactly what it is that God wants you to be doing I do also believe that there are inherent gifts that we've been given
as women inherent gifts that you've been given as men that need to be cultivated
on purpose and the world is so so so against those things toxic masculinity
and all these this stuff is just so harmful and so dangerous and that's what
Hayden was saying at the beginning about like all these other damaging things you
know 30 years ago 20 years ago were promoted as as bad but these things are
promoted as truth and so we have to really up our game when it comes to discernment to figure out not just what
is the world telling me not even just what is church culture telling me but what is God telling me about my Divine
role as a woman or as a man and uh one thing I will say a specific example is
you know uh there was a period of time where Savannah and I were struggling really hard financially actually had to
do with doing the Stick of Joseph stuff it was not very long ago yeah it wasn't very long ago and um you know we were
really struggling trying to make ends meet and so Savannah was like okay I'm going to help pick up the slack but at
the same time you know we have these two children and it became this overwhelming thing and um I remember I came home from
a trip a business trip and we sat down on the couch and she looked me in the
eyes and she says she's like Hayden I feel like I've been trying to fulfill
your masculine role of providing like because we're in this hard spot right now but I'm not going to do that anymore
I trust that you are going to provide and I am going to nurture our children
and that it was it was such a beautiful moment because on one end I felt respected and
trusted and I was like all right I got to I really got to step step it up and
that it's almost it's almost inspiring yes it was inspiring to to me to do this
yeah to be given that stewardship and you know and approval of that it's inspiring I think I think sometimes
maybe on both sides from both sexes right we may not always understand that and where you can give a woman the
ability to be more feminine and you can give the man more ability to be more
masculine instead of trying to cross over and make up those things right yeah well and if it
was the opposite direction if Hayden came to me and said I want you to stay home and be the mother to our children
like the internet would freak out I would be so oppressed right but in
reality that's what I want at my core without all the distractions and all the
people telling me like I need to go make money I need to go be successful in the world not that those things are bad
right and there are plenty of working women especially in the church because that's what God's plan is for them at
this stage in their life and for their family and that's why I I hesitate like I said to get really black and white on
these but for us God had sat me down and was like stop like stop trying to do all
these little side hustles and all these things that are distracting you from your kids because this time is the time
and season in your life where I want you to be mom and I want you to get good at meal planning and I want you to get good
at you know creating systems around the house that now make my life easier as a mom of almost three right right and that
at that season God told me what I needed to be doing and I was able to then put
that trust financially and spiritually into my husband and all along that's
what he wanted even though it was stressful even though it's hard the role that he wanted as father and husband
deep down at his core was the role to provide and to preside and to protect and so I almost gave him permission to
do that and gave myself the permission to fulfill the feminine roles I knew God wanted me to fulfill at that time and so
like I said if if it was backwards if he was coming to me and saying that the world would have a fit but I would say
thank you that's what I want I want to be a mom right now I want to these are the rules that I want to fulfill yeah
you know it's interesting so my wife was a stay-at-home mom right for most of the
time early on in the salad dayss right we had uh you know she would work a little bit on the side and had a job but
but once our first child was born she it was that was it right for us now
here and there where there was some Financial stresses then she would get a part-time job for a little bit or do do
whatever she could and Etc but you know it's it is against what the world wants
that's completely against what the world wants and it's interesting because you know you talk about like feminism and feminism is well
choice but at its core it's really not it's not all right it's it's we want you
following this over here yeah right and so it's it's very difficult to go against
the grain like that and it's just getting stronger and stronger right you have you have fewer and fewer uh well
you have fewer and fewer marriages you have fewer and fewer children that have a father in the
home right because the mother can do it all you right I'll do it all and I don't need the man right and you have more and
more daycare you have you know and not that any of these things are specifically bad and people get put into difficult situations all the time but
you know I'm listening to the presidential uh debate last night and there's this big huge deal on child care
and it is an issue for people right it is an issue how do you take care of child care but the further we go down
the road of leaving the kids to someone else to educate them and to bring them
up socially and emotionally and every other way yeah that will always become a
bigger issue and then it just Cycles right it just gets worse and worse so I
I I think going against the grade on that is going to be harder and harder for your generation right it's going to
be very difficult for you to stay true to those roles and still and then and
then instill them in your kids well and go ahead I was just going to say so last uh last night I was up
with some youth at Flaming Gorge uh in our Ward uh cuz I'm a teacher corm adviser but it was like young men young
women we had about 35 youth up there it was awesome and I shared something with um I was I was pretty fired up just
because I I see so much that is going against these children these youth I
just I feel so bad for them and I just like it it fires me up but I I told them
I said the world is lying to you right now saying that the the best thing that
you can accomplish is out in the world making money making moves building
businesses uh that for you as a woman the best thing you can do is shake your booty on Tik Tok and get as many guys as
possible and the best thing you can do as a guy is make a ton of money so that way you can you know have a different
girl every night that is those are the messages from the world and the other
message from the world is that children get in the way of doing what you want which is true but I I to I I just try to
instill it in them that the most important thing like when I come home
every single day from work and my two children run up to me and look in my
eyes and say Daddy I I could lose my whole reputation
we could we could be living out in a tent somewhere I hope I hope this doesn't happen you be living out in a
tent somewhere and as long as my children love me respect me as long as I
love my children I love my wife and we have that like that is what's meaningful and I feel like like we we spit in the
faces of our ancestors when we say oh I have to have a house and I have to have this s level of income before I'm going
to have children and it's like they're popping out 10 kids that are our ancestors in a one room log cabin and
it's like because they understood they were God-fearing people and they understood that the first commandment
God gave Adam and Eve after they left the garden was to to multiply and replenish and there's so much joy and
there's so much refinement that happens in the pursuit of being a parent that it
is an absolute shame that our children are being lied to that that is somehow an inconvenience that should be put off
until the last possible moment when the biological clock is ticking down and you're like well I guess I'll have a
couple of them sorry for the rant but it fires me up if you know hate any you
know likes his rants well it's you know it's also
interesting you what you see in the world right now with masculinity and femininity is you know you have this
this push on toxic masculinity it's all toxic masculinity and usually when you say masculinity people just think toxic
masculinity that's what it is it's full buzz word now yeah unless it's a masculine trait from a
woman right if if a woman is giving masculine traits and expressing herself
in a masculine way it's praise this is amazing this is awesome you're providing you're the one doing this um you look at
Hollywood and all of the excuse the French badass women that are out there beating everybody up and blowing
everything up and it's like even in video games right it's like it's it's this raising of the masculinity in
women and and crushing the femininity and then for men it's crushing their
masculinity and and raising their femininity you know it's like that's very true it you're if you're a man and
you you express something masculine it's toxic but if it's feminine you're you're getting in touch with your feminine side
right and if you're a woman and you're feminine you're weak so you should be expressing yourself with masculinity yeah and I
think that what ends up happening is this you go from the Stark lines of the
yin and yang the the masculine on one side the feminine on the other and then the adoption of each of those by by each
of them right those are the little dots you go from that Stark black and white to a gray ball of nothingness where it's
not masculine it's not feminine cuz women will never be fully masculine and men will never be fully uh feminine and
so that it's just this middle gray blob no longer black and white and I think the embodiment of
that is the whole transgender movement where it's like that is the embodiment
of dispensing with the yin and yangang stark white Stark black m masculinity
and femininity right yeah in quer theory that's what it is right I mean it starts
off saying we're going to separate gender from sex and gender is how I express myself and anybody can be a
woman and anybody can be a man and yeah biology is down here but in the end they
really want to get rid of that too right they want to push that off and and break it all down and it's you know I think
there's something very Divine about separation
right like you're talking about the ying and the Yang how how do you when you try and what I call flatten the hierarchy
when you make everything one right one in the terms of being the same you
destroy several Godlike attributes for example
charity right the ability to love someone who is different from you the
ability to stretch yourself for that person I mean as your kids grow up and they develop their personalities some of
them aren't going to be like you at all right and so you're like okay I I need to I I need to adapt to this and if
you're not in that situation you may never do that right but but the love is so strong you're going to fill that Gap
and and and you're going to reach out and you're going to stretch yourself and same with marriage of course right I
mean when we hear in Genesis of okay I'm going man and woman are are formed in
the image of God and but they're separate and and that's what H that's the story of that Genesis right we're
going to take the rib out all they're saying is there's a separation we need a distinct separation and then becoming
one is not becoming the same right it it is that charity and that love and that ability to bridge
between those differences and just going to our covenants with God I mean there is a massive difference between us and
him and and and what do you do why would he come down and lower himself to
us yeah right if he doesn't have that need there's that love actually isn't
there and that's why I love the yin and yang symbol so much because it's not
just a circle with a line down straight down the middle right it is it's a way
that goes back and forth meaning there has to be give like there is this almost dance that goes on between masculine and
femininity in order to be one because they aren't the same and it is that that
makes them stronger and then I love the DOT of each of the colors in that yin and yang symbol because I have adopted
feminine traits from my wife that serve me as a masculine person like those
natural feminine traits she has adopted some more natural masculine traits and
that makes us one person but two separate individuals right and I I think
that we we we want we look at the higher
because you talked about hierarchies when you want to flatten the hierarchy because it's not necessarily A
hierarchy of value right because you wouldn't say that a man is more valuable than a woman or woman more valuable no I
wouldn't say it's a values hierarchy but I do I would say it's an order it's an order right and I think one of one of
the phrases that uh really bothers me when I hear people say it and I've heard even heard Savannah say is I'm just a
mom like people ask oh so what do you do and you're like I'm just a mom because that is actually a value hierarchy that
is being bled into our our system that being just a mom is sometime somehow
lower than being what what other thing you could be out in the world right
yeah yeah I I think that's right and I think it's uh and it's beautiful and and you know I
I have these two pictures these two paintings one of my favorite artists is this guy named um aov and leonita aof
he's a Russian painter and he's got these really bright strokes and really thick and short bright Strokes all over
the place and and I've got these two paintings it's the only thing I I I have put into our entire
house like I get these two paintings this is what I'm doing the guitar and the guitar and the guitar sure sure and
then and so but one of them is um it's a
couple and they're like in a Park area and there the woman is looking up to the
man she's got her arms around his neck and she's kissing him and she's got her leg up right it's a very feminine type
thing and a very masculine type thing it's like a romantic thing but the other one is they're also kind of in a park
walking but they're walking down this road and and they've gone through a lot of the road but they're still so they're
kind of small in the painting but they're holding hands and there's still a lot of road in front of them so there's like this eternal perspective
and I think you need Mo both but one of the reasons I like it so much is I just feel that that
sanctity that beauty of of that ying and yang with man and woman is being
lost right and I just want that as a reminder in my home it's like no this is
what it's about right this this has got to be front and center and and I've got some people comment Sometimes they come
into the room like oh what what do you got that up there for it's like no this is beautiful this is this is an order
this is this is important right mhm I agree it really is the most important
thing on earth like the most important thing that we can do as women is find a
man who will be exalted with us and how many
people would be like I would never believe that that's so untrue like you know girl power like we were
saying like Hayden needs me in order to be exalted I need him in order to be
exalted yes and so this focus on like the focus on marriage needs to grow
the focus on you know change yourself to become more like God invite someone
along on the path and do it together like it's no more of this like you don't need
to change for somebody else you don't need to you just I don't know I I feel like I'm kind of tripping over my words
but um but there are so many things that I need to change about myself in order to be a better wife to my husband and
that's good that is not an oppressed thing that is not you know Hayden has
come so far in learning how to hold space for my emotions and a lot of men
would say like we just figure it out on your own right like what am what's my job here that's the natural default
position chaos you know it's it's chaotic like figure it out but but we
need each other and we need to figure out how to hold space for each other and how to how to grow in different it looks
different for every marriage and for every couple right but you know for us like the masculine and The Feminine have
to come together with us like learning how to change and that's a good thing
yeah and I think when you think what what is the attribute of God or what is the thing that God does that makes him
God and it's laid out in the very beginning of Genesis it's to create that
is that is the crowning attribute that we give God at the very beginning of all religious text is that he is able to
create and the the most creative thing we can do as human beings is is children
and that can only happen with a union between a man and a woman and I think
that you know and we could we could get really deep into this but when you read
um the the Tanakh or the Hebrew Bible in Hebrew it is Elohim right which is just plural
for gods for so it just says the gods and you have different names you have lelon which is like the father God you
have El Shai which is translated as the Mighty God but Shai literally means the
breasts so it's literally the god with breasts and so what what I'm saying is that it is Elohim that creates it is the
gods and I submit and us as latterday Saints submit that that is the Divine masculine and the divine feminine
working in tandem together in order to create and that is the thing that we
just can't get around biology speaks about it our theology speaks about it
and our our society when we ignore that fact that men and women are meant to be
together and to work together when we do that our society falls apart our our
young men become violent and they become Criminal our young women become
promiscuous and unable to hold a long-term relationship and that is the
fault of us not being bound together in one
flesh yeah it's it I'm GNA I'm gonna set the stage on this question here first a little bit
because I'm interested to know but I did a a a recent uh episode with my friend
Bruce Porter and it was it was I think I it was I think I called it what happened
to exaltation right something along those lines and it's kind of like okay well we
don't seem to be teaching this as much in our Ward houses right or in the stake
we still hear it in the Pulpit from from General Conference but coming down and I wonder if you know part of that push
away not you know or or ignoring the topic has to do with these ideas and
these ideologies that seem to be breaking the family apart and so it's a little more
uncomfortable maybe to talk about this because of the the insertion the
cultural insertion of feminism the cultural insertion of queer Theory the cultural insertion of untethered empathy
you know that that we seem to be grabbing on to does that make sense salvation is yeah because salvation is
an individual business but exaltation is a family business yeah no no I totally agree I
think um exaltation is a lot of pressure and if we talk about
exaltation um in the wrong way it turns into like teaching our youth for example
you need to be perfect so you can live with God again like x equals y and if
this is not accomplished you're not going to receive this blessing and that's not how it is like I I think so
many of us were kind of taught that as kids that like like I said x equals y well there's no
gra yeah there's no Grace there's no yeah there's no Grace and like what's the point of Jesus if that's how it is
you know but it's not that it's that who can we become what are we learning in
this life what what growth can we experience
because of Jesus Christ because of our weaknesses because of our mistakes because of repentance right because
Jesus is the one who comes in and changes us into an exalted being
but until we learn how to align our will with gods that can't be possible it's
more it's less of a focus on Perfection equals exaltation that needs to be taught and more of a focus on your
relationship with Jesus Christ is the most important thing that needs to be cultivated in this life and then listen
to what he says because chances are Jesus Christ is going to tell you to have a Celestial marriage because that's
the way to exaltation right and so rather than it's it's more of like uh
what we need to be teaching is who are we listening to who whose voice are we letting influence our decisions our
Behavior our our families like like we're saying ultimately the the exaltation of my
children and my husband in myself is the biggest priority that I should ever have in my whole life and anything else any
career decisions any where we live where we buy house any decisions that we make
are simply to support that to support our family to help our family to get
closer to God yeah and
your do you feel that you get that instruction still I I I I would ask do you hear
about exaltation because here's what I think I think that when as you're saying this Savannah um when exaltation is
front and center I think a couple things happen number one you have a focus and a direction that you're going in but
number two it's easier to see the difference in the other ideologies and
the other the other cultural influences that don't align with that exaltation if
the gospel just becomes um well just be a good person right then it gets very fuzzy
yeah on on what you're doing but when you understand I'm trying to become something specific
I'm trying to follow a certain path and I have this goal of exaltation in place and here's the direction I want to go I
think there's a lot more clarity so when you drop that focus on exaltation I I does that make sense to
you yeah it does I I still think that exaltation is not necessarily taught the
right way and it's because of the pressure that goes along with it so like what you're saying there needs to be
clear Direction on like this is the path that God has laid out and I wonder if maybe we shy
away from it as like teaching in the church because we don't want kids are an
or whatever our kids are anxious already they already feel and we have all these issues causes mental
illness yeah that could be the excuses that we use but at the end of the day um
the reason why I think it is imperative and you know when I teach I don't think there's really a lesson I teach to my
teachers in uh in teachers Quorum where I don't bring up exaltation because it
explains the Why without exaltation it's like what is the point of all this you
have some arbitrary God that is putting arbitrary rules on us to make sure that we'd be nice to each other on Earth but
like what is the purpose what is it turning us into and I I agree with you Greg I I reposted that um you posted on
your Instagram a while back like we are losing the doctrine of uh exaltation and
I don't like that or whatever and I and I reposted that because I feel the exact same way it is the thing that sets us
apart yeah and if we don't once again the yin and yang like if we don't see
the brightness of the restored gospel and all of the doctrines that come with that against the dark background of the
world and you know some of the other you know religious ideologies then we're not
going to Value it it's kind of like when I was the easiest it was in my life to
ever be righteous was when I was in going through Marine Corps infantry training and I was surrounded around
guys that were not were not that like my language I wasn't swearing I was you
know I was I held myself to a higher standard because I could see not only
for myself what life is like and what my character may be like if I didn't have the standards that I had but I also
wanted to model that to those around me and now you know and that's one of the
hard Parts about Utah is you don't have that Stark you have this gray pool of lukewarm
discipleship where um which I I guess like right now I just because I I I
think visually and so to me I look at the issues that we have with faith and
and looking the same as that of transgender ideology right it's the it's
the melding into a gray blob um for both of them you know what I mean where it's like you lose the starkness of each of
them and so then you end up throwing it out Al together do you think that it's
an interesting point do do you think that there is at least more easily a loss of
resiliency over adversity in the Inner Mountain West where there is a large culture you
know it's almost all I mean because you Savannah you're in you grew up in Illinois very different right Hayden you
grew up in Salt Lake right right so those are very different environments for Latter-Day Saints I grew up in
Orange County I was it's like everyone knew I was a Mormon right it's like everybody knows that there's already a a
narrative there's a there's a stigma there's a an understanding right from everybody that oh you're separate you're
different right and so it's almost like you grow up expecting to fulfill that in some ways right do you you think peer
pressure is probably more potent in Utah than it is outside for latterday Saints
because of that reason of like you know the kids in your high school growing up
that were sex drugs and rock and roll right were probably not Latter-Day Saints the kids in my high school that
were sex drugs and rock and roll were latterday Saints and so the idea of like
there was this uh yeah when you're in that gray blob of what's right what's
wrong what are we really because we're all the same uh it is a lot harder to
differentiate yourself and it's a lot harder to go up against peer pressure and like stand your ground I agree with
you I think so yeah I think it's I think it's harder here is that what you're saying yeah I think it's harder here so
here's my call to the youth to figure out where you stand cuz it's not going to be easy and it's not going to be
popular but it's one of the most important things you can do to just decide it's like I laugh at my husband
all the time cuz he makes these videos and post them online of like super controversial things and I'm like do you
not read some of these comments he's like I don't care like I stop caring and
ultimately that's what it is we have to stop caring what the world thinks about us and we have to just care so much more
about truth about living truth and about just connecting with God and and living
Our Lives the way that he is asking us to and listening learning how to listen to him so we know what that even means
right has has to be a divide you're talking about you know before we were talking
about um you know going against the grain going against the world these ideas and everything else I used to
think with I I use lehi's dream as a like a major anchor for many many
thought processes and and I used to think that you know it's kind of silly this whole idea of pointed fingers
because it never affected me that much I I to a fault am already in a position
where I don't care what people think you're a stubborn dude girl yeah I I just never cared you
know it's just like and I still don't and to a fall I to I'm too far that way right but I never got it until I became
more an adult had kids and saw them go through their their teenage years and
and then the whole idea of the great and spacious building and the pointed fingers and the way that is used in
social media for example today and and these pressures and influences it is
maybe the primary deterrent to behavior yeah for
good or bad and usually bad it's you nowadays it's bad yeah yeah under the guise of good under the guise of good
sure yeah and and that's it that's that's what we're up against is that we
have to be willing to look like the bad guys and know that we are trying to be
the good guys you know what I mean and that's that's where we have to be at cuz that's exactly what Christ and his
disciples were to those in Jerusalem he was the bad guy he was break he was the
one who was teaching people to break the Sabbath he was like he was not popular
and it wasn't just it wasn't because he was good and everyone else was bad it because everyone else was good and what
he was doing was bad and so we have to have the resilience within ourselves as
husbands fathers wives mothers parents to be okay with looking like the bad
guys um while we are trying to follow Christ yeah I think that's a very good
point do you guys already I know your kids are really young do you do you I'm guessing you already think about how am
I going to protect them how are we how are we going to watch out for this
because these are just things are just going to get worse and more confusing yes we do think about that
often and I think at the end of the day we're just not going to Outsource and
this is what happens and I don't know when it happened I don't know if this is how it's always been but there are
certain taboo subjects right that parents have a hard time or feel awkward sometimes talking about their kids with
you know sex being one of them here here's the thing when it comes to sex
when it comes to gender when it comes to things like that pornography with pornography stuff like that I am not my
kids are going to learn about it somewhere I want it to be from me and not from the world and so there for us
as we think about just a general principle that is going to guide our parenting going in the future we're
going to make mistakes and we're going to screw up and we know that it's that we are not going to be afraid to talk to
our children and we just want to have a culture of openness in our home and you know pornography is a big one it's
something that I struggled with through my teenage years all the way up uh you know I I struggled pretty hard with it
until I was about 24 and then since we've been married I've had a couple relapses and the key to Breaking that
and making sure that doesn't get a hold in our lives is communication and so like the relapses I've had in my
marriage the key to making sure that that doesn't continue is for me to communicate with my wife and to have us
have that happen so when my children come and there is this thing too where
I'm kind of going on the pornography thing but I I find it interesting and important to probably that are uh listening but
um a lot of times parents think that if they share their mistakes or their
humanness with their children it will somehow like give them a card to do go off and do whatever they want but what I
found and at least with with my dad um is that that isn't the case that it just
makes them trust you to talk to them makes them approach it makes them apprach you're a kid you're going to be
so much more comfortable talking to your imperfect parent than your seemingly perfect parent because they put off that
Vibe your whole childhood you know and I I think as parents like our our number
one goal is to have good communication with our children because if we don't
have their ear we we don't have anything we we might be able to control their curfew we might be able to control what
clothes they wear while they're in our house but if we don't have their ears and their respect then it none of it
matters I think when it comes to protecting our kids um at least for me
as a mom this is something I've been thinking about a lot as we've been talking today is just creating like a a
I don't want to say a safety net but a safety a Garden of Eden a Garden of Eden
creating that in my home and I get to do that based on who I choose to to bring
into our home right and so when it comes to supporting each other as moms and you
know we talked about daycare earlier um guys motherhood is so hard and sometimes
it's truly imposs it is always truly impossible to do all of it by yourself and so why are we trying to do that I
just had a girlfriend come over yesterday to my house she's got a little girl who's like two and all the kids
were like running around in their underwear just playing in the water table outside and my house was a mess I
just sh out of the shower and I just had to be like this is so great like there is no Perfection here there is no like
stress if I have to look a certain way as a mom before I can let people come into our world and so I'm trying on
purpose to build this network in this family of people that my children can know who are also like safe people who
are going to help teach them about the gospel and who are going to help like in no way am I trying to cocoon my children
from people who don't see things the same way that I do but it is my responsibility as a mom to find people
who I can serve and help and who are willing to come serve and help me and my kids and so moms like text that other
mom that you've been thinking about this week like don't worry about if your kids in their underwear like we all just need
each other and the more support we can give each other as moms as parents as people who care about the exaltation of
our families the easier it's going to be and the more the more joyful it's going to be the
terrifying the world is going to seem because we know we have this space of
safety and of of Truth and of like we can all hold space for each other with
our imperfections and with our struggles and with me crying about my therapy appointment to my friend yesterday like
we all we all need that and we're all so afraid I think to do that in the name of
looking perfect on social media right so that was a total tangent that just went off to a completely different direction
but think it's very very very important especially especially as young moms we
need each other and our kids need each other the
end yeah I uh to both of those points I think that uh you know we no longer live
in a world where you can protect your kid from everything right right you used to be able to do that a lot easier that
that that's just not the case anymore it's also not helpful like it's not helpful to try and shelter your kid from
everything no especially because as soon as they walk out into the world how are they going to handle anything that's one thing right there's no resiliency that's
built up there has to be a recognition that you're going to build a garden but there's always going to be a snake uh
living in denial of the serpent in the garden is only dangerous for your family
and so recognizing and being okay with the fact that there still are there's always going to be a serpent in the
garden is important but I I think as Savannah you know was saying my job as a man is to build a wall for the garden
her job as mother is to tend that garden and to fill the garden with children
with our own Adam and evees until one day they you know partake of the fruit
of Good and Evil understand conscious they're conscious beings and then they go out in the world and they do the same
thing and then they want to return and then they have a place where they want to come back to knowing that this is a
place where we are close to God you know and ultimately isn't that the whole metaphor that we all left the garden we
all left our Heavenly home and that someday we hope to want to go back right
sure yeah absolutely well that's good stuff I appreciate both of you guys I
think that um the six months that you guys had in
your courtship was more than enough you're a great couple oh exposed us we're one of those it was immediately
followed though with six months of Marine Corps training away from each other and then right after then nine
months after that we had our first child so it's been a it's been a while yeah that's that's pretty close to my
timeline as well so but anyway thank you so much you guys have both got a great spirit so much Clarity you articulate
yourselves very well and uh appreciate your input God bless you Greg
