Polygamy & The Utah Polygamy Bill

cwic show polygamy sb 102 Apr 15, 2020

Cristina Rosetti, PhD one of the few non-LDS Mormon scholars, talks about her experience and research with polygamy and Mormon Fundamentalists. Cristina also testified in the Utah State Senate and House advocating for Utah SB 102.

-  How long did polygamy continue after 1890?

- What are some core doctrinal differences from the LDS Church?

-  Are there polygamous women who are feminists?

-  Polygamy in Utah is now effectively decriminalized, why?

 

 

A good book on this subject -

American Polygamy: A History of Fundamentalist Mormon Faith by Craig L. Foster

 

Amazon- https://amzn.to/2VeD305 

 

Podcast Links:

 

Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cwic-media/id1428167000

 

Spotify:  https://open.spotify.com/show/3BNjs4EJqo0iK4LURdTPDb 

 

 

Cwic Show LDS, Mormon, Polygamy

 

so Christina let's talk polygamy

let's talk first of all I wanted to get

get an idea of what brought you into

studying in the Mormon studies just the

background on that what launched that

not a lot of people outside of the

church are studying Mormon studies it's

kind of a select group so what brought

you into that yeah I can I can count

them on probably two hands yeah and we

kind of know each other at Mormon

History Association and see each other

but I during grad school when I first

started grad school I was really

interested in the 19th century and

because it was just such an interesting

time for religion in America especially

around the Second Great Awakening and I

was assigned rough stone rolling and I

fell in love with it I fell in love with

the story of Joseph Smith I was

captivated by these people that gave

everything for this idea of restoration

and I wanted to know everything I could

about this church and about Joseph Smith

and I started I went on Amazon I spent

way too much money and I bought every

book I could find and I went to the

library and I got every single book on

Mormonism and I read all of them how far

down the rabbit hole did you go oh I

mean I it's bent

it's now been eight years yeah so over

six seven years so and it's all I

do

I mean that's all I do is I read

Mormon history and so I told my woman

who then became my advisor that I wanted

to study Mormonism and given that I was

interested in ethnography and the lived

experience of people she told me why

don't you go meet the Mormons and I went

into a why I say

no I went to an institute first and I

went into a why I was then invited to a

why I say ward from people at my

Institute and it was so different than

the book I had read and it just

didn't feel like the book I had read

like where were the you know saints that

were practicing and I'd order and where

was the polygamy where was all of this

and I won't lie there was a little bit

of disappointment in me that it wasn't

the 19th century all of a sudden in the

21st century and I eventually ended up

meeting fundamentalist Mormons and

finding the Mormons that I had so badly

wanted to meet from rough stone rolling

mm-hmm so you had more of an experience

a 19th century experience with them I

did I mean of course they most people

kind of in their head imagine

polygamists or fundamentalist Mormons

wearing Prairie dresses with the hair

bump that's kind of imagining of what a

fundamentalist Mormon looks like or is

right the reality is that's only one

specific church that's the FLDS they

dress like that but most fundamentalist

Mormons look like that is that the

largest by the way is that the largest

organization polygamist organization not

anymore

normally there was a time where it was

one of the biggest so there was two that

were I mean if your interest in the

history about why these are big we could

but there was two historically they were

like the two biggest groups and they

were one of them for a long time but

today and for a long time most

polygamist Mormons just look like us and

so the dress was very contemporary but

there was definitely a feel of this 19th

century faith being revived and lived in

the contemporary moment and so that was

really interesting to me and it still

remains something interesting to me even

though one of the things I talked about

quite a bit with people is how mundane

it is people want polygamy to be this

strange weird thing or people want

fundamentals Mormonism to be so weird

and the reality is that it's

usually not not weird okay so you

spent some time with one of these

organizations yes people yes so I've

spent some time with several different

groups the one that I've spent the most

time with is called the righteous branch

of the Church of Jesus Christ of

latter-day saints a lot of the names of

these groups are very long they go back

Christ’s church for short and then for

people who study Mormonism would be

more familiar with how fundamentalist

groups are named the Petersons group is

kind of what they're called because of

their early founders

um and I spent quite a bit of time with

them learning their history and meeting

these people and seeing how their

families work and seeing how their

religious lives work and then now given

all the time I've spent in this world I

know quite a bit of fundamentalist

Mormons from all different backgrounds

and even people that aren't actually

part of a church or a group they're just

independently Mormon and spending this

time with them what I mean what did you

it's something it's a world obviously

the most people know nothing about or

they have like you say a certain

assumptions right what did you

glean from this I mean what was

there anything really surprising to you

what did you pull out of this

experience

um I mean that's there's a lot you know

I mean I I spent so much time doing this

I think one of the things that that is

most apparent to me is just how Mormon

there are and I and I think that's the

most and how just like us they are I

mean right they're everyone's people

everyone's just people doing their best

to live their faith and when I say how

Mormon they are you know there's a

history of Mormon persecution and

prosecution that a lot of people who are

familiar with Mormonism will recognize

and that didn't stop that's still a

reality for a lot of Mormons in the

American West and in the Intermountain

West I mean and even things that I kind

of take for granted as being LDS you

know when you go to a fundamentalist

meeting house they're singing praise to

the man they're singing we think the Oh

God for a prophet they're taking the

sacrament they're doing you know talks

they're folding their arms when they

pray and so kind of realizing how

similar these movements are that have

been made out to be so different from

each other

now you said though like originally you

said when you went out there though you

went to Institute you went to the YSA

ward and you said you were a little

disappointed but now you're saying

they're kind of the same so there's some

things that are saying but something

they're definitely different yeah I mean

and no one is gonna look like the 19th

century right again a lot is there a you

know a most authentic representation of

Mormonism and that's a really hard

question for me to answer or a lot of

people ask me if Joseph Smith comes back

which one would he recognizes his and

the answer is I mean everyone is wearing

jeans like I don't think he's gonna look

at people and say oh those are mine but

yeah I mean I was initially the things

that compelled me about Marmon ISM were

the communitarianism and you know

polygamy is definitely one of them I

DEA's about apotheosis and those aren't

really present in everyday meetings now

you go to an LDS meeting house and it's

just very Protestant in a way right I

mean people are singing hymns talking

about Heavenly Father in Jesus Christ

and the ideas that really made Mormonism

you know peculiar quote-unquote in the

19th century aren't really in the

meeting house and so or you know

certainly not in an institute and so I

found some of that in like remnants of

that in fundamentalism but then you know

and my initial introduction to

fundamentalism was hold me to the

Mormons but the more I spent time with

fundamentalist Mormons the more it just

came to be this is Mormonism I mean this

is just a different expression of a very

dominant American faith mm-hmm did you

you know when you talk about the

United order and the way that they live

is there a what are the pros and cons

that you saw living the way that they do

it's not just for the United order but

obviously I mean there's kind of a it

seems to me that there would be some

type of a connection between polygamy

and United order or the way that they

would they would live that what would

the cons of that be yeah so I mean first

I think it's important that most people

kind of think of Mormonism and they

think of the church or like an instant

or organized group of people or an

institution and I do want to know that

you know a lot of fundamentalist Mormons

aren't part of that so there are a lot

of fundamentalist Mormons who are

practicing polygamy who and there's a

long history of fundamentalist Mormons

not being part of a church and there's

historically grounded reasons

for that but you know the ones that are

part of a church such as the righteous

branch that I talked about and that I

spent significant time with you know one

of my most valuable memories of my

research was waking up early with the

woman that I was staying in her home

waking up very early and going to the

Relief Society kitchen which is a it's

there's a little wing of the temple that

is the Relief Society kitchen next to

the where sacrament meeting happens and

canning with women all day like all day

long and knowing that this food wasn't

just for this family but knowing that

this food was available to everyone in

the community that when they say

there will be no poor among them when

they say we will be of one heart in one

mind

they're taking the steps necessary to

try to attain that for their community

and that was really beautiful to see

that in this community that they're

trying very hard to do that and they

actually don't call it United order

because it's not you know it's not fully

complete and that not everything is held

in common and they called united effort

because it's a effort to get there

Norrish it's served and it was that was

a really powerful thing and on that day

when the women were canning a lot of the

men in the community were laying

concrete and they weren't just laying

concrete for their family they were

doing it for everyone the other kind of

Pro that I see is not necessarily the

big families but the support system

within those families that does come

from polygamy a lot of the women in

these communities that I know that

if God forbid something happens to them

there will be women in their lives that

will raise their children and that's

something that a lot of women don't have

I mean you might have an aunt or a

friend or saw a cousin but that's very

different than having other mother

figures that will bring you in and treat

you as if you were one of their children

because you were for so long so those

are kind of the things that are that I

view as pros/cons I mean I don't ever

want to live polygamy right I think

that's not it's not a marital a marital

system that I would ever want to live

sharing a spouse is hard and one of the

things that I really value about

the communities and the people that I

know is that they have never pretended

it was anything other than hard so yeah

it's I mean it's hard it's hard like I

don't know but you could imagine right

sure sure absolutely so do you do

most of that let's just talk about the

women first on that did I mean are they

looking at this as a sacrifice that

they're living this way because

they feel this is the way they're

supposed to live maybe maybe I'm making

an assumption there but yeah I don't

think I've ever heard of it in terms of

sacrifice per se I mean the women I know

who are living it believe in it right

this is an eternal principle so to them

so of course they're gonna live and live

it I mean it's in their scriptures

they're in a community that is doing

this they have a history of profit

saying you have to live this way so I

don't know if it's I mean of course it

would be a sacrifice but I think the

bigger impulse is people believe in this

people believe that this is the God

ordained way of entering celestial

kingdom and so that's very hard to

remove from people's mindset even though

it's hard I mean there are definitely

some that view in a way of this is a

temporal way of becoming like God and

removing jealousy you know the response

that would be like why don't men have to

get rid of their jealousy yes you know

that's a logical next follow-up question

but I mean there's a long-standing

history of this practice going back to

you know Abraham and so it's hard to rid

that of people's minds especially people

who were born in those people who've had

multiple mothers people who were raised

in polygamous communities now I dunno

converts who join fundamentalism and now

they're you know second third wives

themselves but belief is a powerful

thing so most of the women though I mean

in your experience most of the women

grew up in a fundamentalist family or

group you know I mean with the group the

righteous branch for example a lot of

the women that I was closest to were

hundreds okay and so from the LDS Church

and so

no I mean they were they were primarily

from the LDS Church yes or at least they

joined the LDS Church on their way to

fundamentalism and that is so can I

share a little bit about the history

yeah sure go ahead to make it just kind

of make it make sense um so you know

fundamentalist history fundamentalist

Mormons have their own history of how

polygamy happens and how polygamy

continues to happen we kind of imagine

there being like one Mormon history and

that's just really not the case so um

there's a document that the LDS Church

does not consider to be authentic from

1886 called the 1886 revelation or the

eight-hour meeting which documents then

President John Taylor meeting with Jesus

Christ and the resurrected Joseph Smith

um and really all they say is eternal

principles cannot be revoked and in this

case he's talking about polygamy and

he's in the whole you know he's in

hiding John Taylor was practicing

polygamy the government is coming after

him like this is a scary time for

Mormons and he's in the home of Lawrence

II Willie who is his bodyguard and he

gives this revelation he makes five

copies of this revelation and he gives

it and Lawrence II will he ends up you

know making copies of them and Lorne

will he becomes really one of the

leaders of the early fundamentalist

movement and he brings men together in

forms what is called the Council of

friends and these men believed ardently

that the LDS Church is the church on

earth but there's a priesthood exist

higher than the church and there has

always been a priesthood outside of the

church and they're supposed to keep that

alive and really that's equated with the

priesthood practice of polygamy was this

happening after 1990 or before or 1890

it's happening but so 1886 is when the

revelation happens they formally

organized in 1928 it's kind of squishy

here according to Lawrence II Willie but

I mean the story that polygamy ended in

1890 is really just that it's a story

and I think if people really kind of

logically consider not not whether or

not that was

through revelation that's not what I'm

asking people to consider but if people

sit and consider the logistics of what

that would look like it doesn't actually

make sense

so the first manifesto was released in

1890 President Wilford Woodruff says

we're not gonna practice polygamy

anymore does that mean then that mass

divorce happens certainly not and I

don't think a lot of people who

spout who talk about you know pulling

the ending in 1890 have sat and really

considered what happens to those

children if that story is true what

happened to all these wives if that

story is true because when we talk about

you know I remember being an Institute

well you're breaking up families

obviously I mean you're taking families

and ripping them apart I mean that's a

very how do you massage that whole thing

and how long does that take to

transition right especially I mean I

remember an Institute hearing that

polygamy was first instituted or

practiced widely because when crossing

the plains men died and what are these

women do and if polygamy ended in 1890

in that way you're putting them back in

that same situation so all of a sudden

there's these women who have no family

so I've no income structure what are

they going to do

and so polygamy didn't end 1890 and

there's a large body of literature on

post manifesto polygamy but in 1904 the

LDS Church released the second manifesto

and the second manifesto said now we're

really done with polygamy but of course

polygamy doesn't end in 1904 because

it's the same problem was there a lot of

well that were there a lot of legal

battles going on during say that 14 year

period between 1890 in 1904 so you Tom

received statehood for publicly

disavowing polygamy Nate tonight and I

don't want to be clear there were

definitely LDS people that stopped

practicing polygamy absolutely in 1890 I

don't want to discredit the reality that

that happened but widely and

institutionally no and there were even

temple sealant polygamist temple

ceilings that happened and they're well

documented after 1890 and in 1904 under

continued government pressure now we're

really ending polygamy but of course

again what does that mean how do you end

polygamy how do you end a family

structure especially when for so long

people taught that you needed it for

exaltation and then you know in 1933 we

all gave stretched out did

say no more did end polygamy so 1933 was

a really revolutionary watershed moment

for fundamentalist Mormon ISM because

the line was drawn the line was drawn 40

43 years passed between the first

manifesto bill it was do you do you know

anything about maybe maybe temple

questions or anything like that that

would have happened around then or yeah

so there's a really important temple

question that do you associate with you

know apostate groups like that kind of

notorious question in 1933 the LDS

Church went when I say they drew a line

in the sand and says no more

they started excommunicating people in

that moment that was really that the

moment that excommunication started but

it was also the moment that increased

prosecution started and people started

going to prison so that was a big moment

but it wasn't actually until 1940 that

the notorious question thirteen

I think it's 13 still was introduced in

the general handbook of instruction to

kind of parse out these people and the

reason for that is again people who are

practicing polygamy for those 43 years

believed they were Mormon mm-hmm they

were going to LDS Church they were going

to the temple they were participating in

all facets of LDS worship and to some

extent that's still the case really in

the 1970s that was the case and so there

needed to be a way to ensure who are

these who was who in Mormonism

um so 1933 that really starts in 1933 is

really the time where we see groups

forming and different polygamist people

and so I mentioned the 1928 kind of

forming of what was called or is called

the Council of friends and the council

of friends was a priesthood group and it

was a group of men that really their

only thing was keeping polygamy alive

they were members of the LDS Church they

believed that the LDS Church was the

true church but they had a higher

priesthood they had the sealing keys to

keep polygamy going and it's from those

men those seven men that really the

major fundamentalist groups come from so

within that group was a man named Joseph

Musser

and Joseph Musser ordained a man named

Rulon Allred and from them comes the

line that becomes the Apostolic United

Brethren a lot of people are familiar

with them because they're the ones on TV

they're the sister wives and you know

there are the ones that everyone knows

and then on the other side was a man

named John why Barlow and John way

Barlow really kind of establishes the

community of Short Creek and he is where

the FLDS come from

and rather than agree with the

ordination of Rulon Allred he agrees

with the ordination of Leroy Johnson who

is the FLDS prophet that then ordains

rule and Allred and worse so at this

point then there is a distinction in

priesthood that is that come as far as a

line of priesthood in a claim of

authority so it's complicated

I mean the narrative the fundamental

story which makes sense is that I think

I mean not to you know say which was

true not in I'm not into that game but

when we think of the story of Mormonism

you know what came first the church or

Joseph Smith's ordination which one

well the ordination right so priesthood

existed before the church sure

fundamentalist Mormons say that that's

still true got it so they would argue I

mean and obviously there's very limited

evidence for a quote priesthood a

council of friends or a priesthood

Council existing above the church in the

nineteenth century or in the early you

know 1830s when the form a formal Church

was established but the fundamentalist

movement would argue that there has

always been a priesthood outside of the

church and there is a high priesthood

that continues to exist and what John

Taylor initiated in 1886 was saying the

LDS Church has priesthood they have

authority but there's a higher authority

needed to maintain the ceiling the

plural ceilings and so that's kind of

what they their claim is now that did

change in really in the 70s that did

change there's been at varying

points different fundamentalist groups

have argued that the LDS Church did lose

all their authority in depending on the

fundamentalist group you're asking and

now that's when they started

incorporating as churches but for most

of fundamentalist history

the LDS Church was the church and they

were the priesthood right so the or

some of the organizations then that

you're talking about might claim

completely that it's within their

organization within their church right

when their sect but others that might be

independent for example right would say

they still have the I mean I don't know

about like maybe the Darger family or

what they might claim or how that

works they claim it from previous

organization they were involved with or

they're generally even care I don't know

their generationally independent and you

would have to obviously talk to them for

further details about what that looks

like I'm in their specific faith but

they're a generationally independent

family so a lot of you know when groups

started incorporating there was a large

contingent of families and people that

said you know that is outside of our

purview we were told to keep plugging me

alive we were told to keep the

priesthood alive but we were told not to

establish the church and that comes from

Lauren Wooley who I mentioned who very

emphatically told people not to organize

as a church because there was already a

church we don't need to already here

it's on earth but he did tell people

like this is your job is to keep

clicking me alive and so I mean there's

different ranges so the episodic United

Brethren for most of their history

believe the LDS Church maintains some

authority and was the church there's

other groups like the true and living

church that believes that there re

restoration because the LDS Church lost

everything

so there's shades but really you know

fundamentalism began as a way to keep

polygamy alive and that's not all

fundamentalism is anymore

of course you know consecration the

belief in continuing united order the

continued belief in the atom god doctor

and those are markers of fundamentalism

but most commonly polygamy is the

underlying trend and really the

foundation of the movement okay so back

to the social aspects of this that you

experienced this is probably I'm

guessing I'm assuming that there's it's

it's different among those that are

independent and those that are part of

some of these other organizations these

other churches what is the how different

would for example the righteous branch

what how different is the are the gender

roles compared to modern-day what the

Western modern-day civilization

I mean I guess it depends on what

civilization you're talking about

okay United States yeah 2020 United

States I mean I would say that their

gender roles are very similar to the

LDS Church in terms of affirming an

eternal gender of affirming that there's

something distinct about men and women

that there's something to be said about

what comes like what a woman's role is

and a family I would say that they're

very similar there's nothing really

particularly unique about a

fundamentalist persons view of what

makes someone a man or a woman in terms

of you know conservative Christian

culture mm-hmm so in the righteous

branch for example are most of the women

are many of the women employed are they

yeah yeah so and that's not unique to

them most many fundamentalist women I

know are have steady jobs and that is

something that makes polygamy valuable

to some women is that you know it's very

hard to be a working woman if you want

to have a job and also have a lot of

children and polygamy lets people have

that who might not necessarily be able

to otherwise like for me for example you

know I'm not married but if I want

you know I love my research and I love

everything I do and I really couldn't I

mean I don't I don't want children but I

really couldn't logistically have a lot

of children with life I want to live and

so polygamy lets people do that but most

fundamentalist women I know have gone to

school you know they do have an

education they are you know people kind

of wonder have either meta

fundamentalist and the answer is

probably yes you know they're your

doctors they're your lawyers they're

your grocers they're everyone's

mm-hmm especially in the Intermountain

yes I'm you know if you're and if you're

in Connecticut nothing but if you're in

Utah you have absolutely met a

polygamist person I saw a number I

talked about this previously but a

sudden number that I think is a little

bit more up there actually if 1998 that

there they had estimated forty

seven thousand people that are in these

into either independent or in

groups forty-seven thousand individuals

that are involved with polygamy in Utah

I mean I still think that's low and the

reason for that is you know in a census

right are you gonna you're gonna say

that you're practicing criminal behavior

probably not and we're gonna talk more

about that but you know polygamy has

been criminalized for a very long time

and so are you gonna willfully be like

yes I'm one of those people yeah maybe

but more than that a lot of polygamous

people still attend LDS Church they

consider themselves LDS and so kind of

parsing out when people write down I'm

Mormon what do they mean mm-hmm is it

sparkly complicated what if one of those

people I mean I'm guessing you've spoken

to those people and what how do they

how do they how do they justify that

right because you've got an LDS Church

that is saying hey this is a sin this is

wrong and they're saying well I'm LDS

but I believe in this also so how are

they justifying that yeah so I mean I I

know families that are fundamentalist

they're not necessarily practicing

polygamy but they want to or they

definitely think that that's an eternal

thing they should they're definitely

fundamentalist in their beliefs and they

go to LDS Church several reasons the

first one is one such family doesn't

live in Utah or anywhere near a

fundamentalist group and so where do

they go where they suppose to go to

church right and the LDS Church still

remains a really great place for them to

raise a family for them to teach their

kids the basics of the gospel for them

to teach their kids who Jesus is that

you know this is the history of our

church this is what we are and they can

go home later and you know share the

other doctrines that might not be taught

there so that's kind of one thing

the other is you know there's some

stickiness in the LDS Church's

relationship with polygamy today I'm

sure that it's not it of course is not

espoused as a living ordinance but it is

a spouse as an eternal one potentially

and there you know president Oaks kind

of made some comments in conference last

I'm not this session but the one before

right where people started really

thinking about that about you know he is

married to women he's still to to women

and so what does that mean and so

there's no direct kind of comment on

what that means from leadership but

people have speculated what that means I

mean Carolyn Pierson is an LDS woman who

wrote a book called the ghost of eternal

polygamy where she really tries to

grapple with this like what are we still

a polygamist church if 1:32 is in our

doctrine and plural sealing still happen

and so that's another out right is yes

you know polygamy is not okay to live

with but I'm still part of a polygamous

church you know so at least in the

afterlife at least in the afterlife

right and I mean as long as 132 is

doctrine there's a place for these

families okay so yeah so they're saying

it's an eternal principle but most of

them you're talking about are not living

it no most people that I know that are

living polygamy are either independent

and they're no longer I mean the 70s was

really a catalyst moment for

fundamentalism you know in 1978 though

they are looked at the priesthood ban

and that was a deciding moment for a lot

of fundamentalist communities of does

the church still have authority and so

they didn't they didn't like to change

I'm guessing they kind of looked at it

like well this is just like the last

manifesto in 1890 right where it's

like hey wait a minute you made this

change now polygamy's outlawed and now

you're making this other change in 1978

what's right so there's a lot of I

mean and of course I don't speak like

fundamentalist Mormon ISM is a huge

umbrella there's a wide belief in there

but there are many fundamentalist

Mormons that definitely think that the

1978

lifting of the ban was just one more

moment of succumbing to government

pressure and wasn't actually from God

and so many groups kind of established

churches in that moment saying we now

have to make churches because the LDS

Church is over so that was kind of a

moment so contemporarily many polygamist

people that will either be independent

or go to LDS Church or go to their own

churches but I definitely know families

that are fundamentalist in their beliefs

they aren't currently practicing

polygamy they might want to or are

actively trying to but they're not but

they definitely have beliefs that are

outside of you know what it's considered

LDS norm and they're going to LDS

meeting houses but I mean I think

everyone not necessarily with polygamy

because that's kind of a big one but I

think everyone at some point has known a

person in their wards that will stand up

at fast and testimony and you'll be like

huh that was different

yeah maybe not as oh no you're good like

maybe not necessarily about polygamy but

I mean I had that moment when I was

attending an LDS Ward in 2017 in Utah

and every fasten testimony this man

shared his testimony about you know

these evil spirits in our brains and

very kind man but you know that's not an

LDS doctrine it's not LDS be fair know

inside Bruin everyone in the word

collectively was like huh

and so you know a lot of people with

beliefs that lean fundamentalist might

look similarly right then their LDS

they're very Mormon but there's a few

things that we don't do that anymore

we don't worry about anymore yeah so

this is leading me to SB 102 to me I

mean I'm not in Utah I'm not part of

that world really but which is a very

different world and

you know the church has a difficult

relationship with polygamy obviously you

know the LDS Church and it's like

okay we have tried to separate this

from us their missionary efforts they

want to make sure that people understand

that the fundamentalists are not part of

their group they're they make that

distancing right they have to make that

distancing they feel to appeal to who

they're trying to appeal to and at the

same time it's just fascinating to me

and obviously it's obviously because

there's still so many polygamists in

Utah but that Utah of all places

would be the place to sign into law the

decriminalization of polygamy well kind

of Arizona you're an Arizona correct yes

Arizona actually is effectively

decriminalized long before a Utah I

didn't know that yeah and I mean it's

not fully so decriminalization is hard

only talk about that what we mean Utah I

do agree is the state to watch and I

don't think it's the state to watch

because of the amount of polygamists but

we're one of like we're one of a few

states including Arizona that has it in

our Constitution that you can't have

plug maybe legal Utah's Constitution

says but polygamy and plural marriage is

forever prohibited and so it would take

way more than a bill to make polygamy

legal it would take a full

constitutional amendment so we are one

of a few states now so Nevada is

effectively decriminalized California is

ish decriminalized ish but up until now

it was criminal in Utah but it wasn't

being prosecuted unless it was

associated with other crimes

so polygamy is illegal in all 50 states

right now and it is criminal in all 50

states so yeah so it's still

criminal but Arizona has effectively

decriminalized and the reason for that

is polygamy is hard to prosecute it's a

hard because how does that different

than polyamory for example which is

completely legal

and that's been one of the big points of

contention is why is polyamory illegal

but polygamy is not and the reason for

that is polygamy is a crime

what makes polygamy a crime is if you

cohabitate on one hand one and on the

second is you and purport to be married

so if you cohabitate in a state allowing

through most states that same that same

page yeah so there's a great graph that

was shown during the Senate and the

house hearings committee hearings that

kind of showed where the cohabitation

and reporting could be married states

are but for example Nevada has really

loose cohabitation laws and so you can

cohabitate with seventy people the

minute you say I'm married to them

you're a felon and that doesn't make

sense like that logically doesn't work

right you can like my dad great man who

can you know bring in another woman into

his home and have children with her and

call her mistress and it's fine it's

completely legal but the minute he says

oh I'm married to her too

he's suddenly a felon and so that's how

the polygamy law works and again that I

don't know maybe it's just taking the

name of the man make a difference I mean

I see that a lot of I'd done a little

bit of research on this and a lot of

times what they'll do polygamists will

do is a man he'll have he'll marry the

woman she'll take on his name and then

they'll get legally divorced but she

keeps his name I mean I don't know if

that necessarily affects the law I mean

really what you can't do is you can't

have two marriage licenses so that's

actually called bigamy which is also a

legal um but bigamy kind of carries the

term bigamy carries you know ideas of

fraud and coercion mainly fraud within

it but no I mean taking someone's name

doesn't it's the purporting to be

married whatever that means so and

really that law was done to target

polygamous people fundamentalist Mormon

people in Utah especially that's what

that law was geared toward so the states

that are that

have that are you know the states and

the Mormon belt so Arizona Idaho Nevada

California has had you know kind of

conflict with figuring out Mormonism in

New Mexico so those are the ones that

kind of really had the harshest laws and

even now even with SB 102 passed and

signed and done and officially laws of

may 12 Utah will still have the harshest

polygamy laws in the nation so the news

has kind of made it seem like first of

all the news talked about legalization

which is incorrect and we'll talk about

that and then it talked about full

decriminalization but the reality is we

still have the harshest play laws in the

nation okay but it's still up from what

I understand it's reduced to just an

infraction right

yeah the laws but what about what about

the sentencing yeah so polygamy is

effectively decriminalized and well

what's meant by that is there's two

parts to the bill and a lot of people

read the first part without the second

part and so and it's because the second

parts a little more complicated so the

first part of the bill is that polygamy

will be reduced to an infraction which

is a speeding ticket for otherwise

law-abiding families right so for your

average polygamous family that is just

doing their best and living their life

and not hurting anyone and not criminal

and just being polygamist they are no

longer felons so Maggie might take your

color good they're no longer felon and

so that's the first half now the second

half of the bill is what kind of been

colloquially referred to as the

enhancements and what that means is that

if you are practicing polygamy but it is

associated with other crimes and there's

a long list of those crimes and they

include fraud coercion rape abuse

domestic violence there's a long list

then polygamy will remain a felony so

the intent was to strike a balance

between how do we protect law-abiding

families but also how do we ensure that

people that are really hurting people

and committing abuse how are they held

accountable and so polygamy is an

infraction

as long as it does not accompany other

cramps okay now I'd been I've been

watching the talk about this for a

couple of years you particularly but and

I was just I'm just a lot of a lot of

scholars a lot of from what I would say

and I'm pretty politically independent but

I would say a lot of people on the left

that typically would probably have a

really bad bad view of polygamy very

patriarchal structure the view anyway

would be oppressive but that seems to be

kind of where that this has come from

it's kind of turned around a little bit

where there's this build-up

toward even though it was a Republican I

believe a Republican senator that

sponsored the bill and that was that was

always pretty interesting to me I'm like

wow this is the look where this is

coming from and what do you think the

reasoning is behind that

yeah so I mean do you even agree with

that I don't mean I think the biggest

supporters that I saw were libertarian

and that makes sense of course because

libertarians generally would like all

marriage got the government out of all

marriage let alone you know even

monogamy so that made a lot of sense and

there were a lot of prominent Utah

libertarians who worked on the bill and

so and lobbied for the bill so including

the major libertarian lobbying group

Libertas they lobbied for the bill and

so that of course makes sense right um I

actually did get a lot of pushback from

Democrats and liberals I mean after I

after we started there was a lot I mean

you know I don't I was not living person

in this bill I lobbied it and I talked

about a lot publicly but I think

everyone who talked about it publicly

received a lot of pushback and once I

started having conversations with people

about why I wanted it decriminalized a

lot of you know my fellow Democrats kind

of did come on board but really I saw a

lot of pushback from Democrats saying

that it was oppressive to women and so

yeah I definitely there was the

the times I felt most dragged through

the mud were by my fellow Democrats and

my fellow feminists who how quickly have

forgotten that feminists have railed

against monogamy for a long time - right

so I mean it's not just polygamy that

the feminist movement has sought to get

rid of so sure but I

I mean most of the legislators that I

talked to were Republican I'm in Utah so

of course and so there was definitely

opposition there - I can't really say

who was most opposed but you know

Democrats weren't the Democrats I talked

to weren't really excited initially or

at least they didn't understand why I

would support this so why why would you

say I mean if you were articulating well

here's a question what you testified

both in Utah sent in the Utah Senate and

the house correct hmm okay what was the

questioning primarily so the testimony

is just you just give a testimony and my

testimony and you know it's not it's all

online people can read it I think

there's great arguments to be made for

marriage equality and religious freedom

right I do think it is unconstitutional

from the you know for religious freedom

because of religious freedom - for

polygamy to be I mean I do but that's

actually not my biggest concern my

biggest concern with decriminalization

was a harm reduction effort and what I

mean by that is its twofold

so Utah the law in Utah has created

barriers to access to resources for

people so you know if you carry the

title felon it's very hard to get a job

sure it's very hard to send your kids to

public school if my wife's in a criminal

law I know I know a little bit about

this yeah it's very hard it's there

the law has created not only barriers in

terms of real ones like employment but

there's also social stigma to polygamy

there's a long history of kids getting

made fun of in school because of their

families being polygamist and so you

know the logical conclusion is

if your kid is bullied and you're not

welcome in school you know the

homeschool movement was driven by

polygamists the singer swap family they

created the homeschool movement and then

there's you know I think was Adam swap

who died and he's a martyr for the home

school movement who's a fundamentalist

Mormon so real barriers were created but

the biggest barrier I think that was

created was to law enforcement so if

there's crime and you know most people

kind of think of crime in plug in

fundamentalism as being associated with

you know the family structure but I'm

talking also about things as simple as a

home invasion

fundamentals families are don't feel

safe reporting that and I know a woman

who her home was invaded when she was a

child and she was told that we don't we

can't call nine-one-one because your dad

will be taken there's women who don't

report rape because they don't want to

lose their children to Child Protective

Services there's a long history of that

and the reason for that kind of the big

so I when I testified I talked about you

know I know these women I know women

that don't report crime because they're

afraid of having their family broken up

I know women that don't have access to

health insurance because they're not you

know quote real families and I know

people who have left fundamentalist

movements and believe that they're

leaders who are not great men came to

power because of the law because what

happened was I think this is my argument

when polygamy really underwent its big

heyday and prosecution was it's kind of

hallmarked by the 1953 raid and what

happened was in 1953 the community of

Short Creek which is the historic home

of the FLDS

it was raided by Arizona government a

lot of government like the Joint

Terrorism Task Force was there like it

wasn't just you know cops they took all

the men right a lot they took a lot of

men we also we forget frequently that

women went to prison - during

fifty-three raid and 163 children were

taken and they were put in foster care

and a lot of those kids never went back

to their families so when fundamentalist

Mormons say I'm afraid of losing my

children they're not

as an abstract they're saying that

because it has happened because the

government has taken fundamentals

children from their homes and you know

some people might say that that's a good

thing but the reality is in Short Creek

there were monogamous families that lost

their children - who were down there and

because how do you parse out who's who

and so children were just taken and that

that traumatic memory has followed

fundamentalism for a long time and

created a culture where you don't report

crime because of fear but in the midst

of that that fear was weaponized the

fundamentalist Mormons are around that

time believe that isolation was

increasingly necessary I mean people

moved to Short Creek because they felt

it was necessary but there was an

increasing need for isolation and

unfortunately there were men that came

to power that weaponized fear and they

weaponized isolation and most

notoriously his name is Warren Jeffs and

he's in prison right now

in Palestine Texas and he will not get

out yeah wasn't there was a raid there

too right there was a raid in 2008 yes

in the yearning for Zion ranch in Texas

but it is my argument that and the

argument of a lot of people that he

weaponized the towns isolation and he

weaponized fear of the government and he

was able to create a community where

reporting was discouraged people didn't

report crime in you know in that

community and so you know I have a

friend who tragically I lost him to

suicide last year and he was when I'm

gonna get him optional he was one of

Warren's kids and he was one of my best

friends and he at the end of his life he

really believed that Warren came to

power because of the law and how the law

work and I testified about that in the

Senate and I was kind of like dragged

for bringing him up but it's true that

he thought this and I it ended up

becoming something that I really

believed in that we have the state of

Utah has created a culture where it's

okay to be mean to plug his people it's

okay not to hire them and if you do it's

okay to fire them for their lifestyle

we've created a culture where we put up

barriers to resources and

and we made we created a need for

isolation and so when you put all of

those things together you know a very

strong narrative they don't want us a

very strong narrative we need to be

isolated and a very strong narrative of

the government wants to see your family

in prison those three things together

can become very dangerous do you think

that would be different in a different

state I mean if there were let's say

that let's say you were you brought up

Connecticut let's say there was a lot of

polygamists in Connecticut would it be

different there I think you know I think

the history of prosecution in Utah

really ramped it up right you know the

1944 and 1953 raid happened here on the

border of Utah and Arizona so I think

Arizona would be similar because you

know a lot of FLDS families lived in

Arizona I think so I think the Utah yes

created a very specific context where

this could happen and so yeah all those

things taken together I think

decriminalization was a harm reduction

issue it was to break down the barriers

of access and it was to allow people to

be able to report crime in terms of

resources a woman named Shirley Draper

she's incredible if anyone wants to help

an organization that helps

fundamentalist or helps people trying to

leave she does both cherish families is

the place to go Irish families cherish

families she you know they're the only

organization that helps fundamentalist

and people trying to leave which is

incredible they're not discriminating

you know and they're also if people want

to leave they're not asking them to

abandon their faith in order to get

resources there they're meeting people

where they're at but she was raised FLDS

and in Short Creek in Colorado City and

she testified that she left and a few

years later her mom tried to leave and

her mom went to went to St. George with

with her and tried to get a driver's

license and she was told we don't want

you and yes that was one clerk that

doesn't represent you know the DMV

system but that one clerk made her go

back to Colorado City where she died hmm

so the law in Utah in ways that I don't

think most people think about has

people trying to leave go back so you

know it's done a lot of harm that

is unseen harm I don't I don't think

people think about this in a you know in

that kind of way now you're talking

again you got you've got I think it

seems like you're talking about two

different groups within fundamentalism

then it's because you're saying people

here that really want to leave and yet

you also are talking about and we get it

we're poster talking about women here

but a lot of women that want to stay

right I mean they want and maybe that's

an FLDS thing I don't know but I mean I

do want to say one of the largest groups

of people that testified against the

bill were former members of a prominent

fundamentalist community in Utah they

have been all over the news they're

called the Kingston group they have not

for this that they've been in the news

for monetary fraud and a lot of the

people that spoke out against the bill

were victims of abuse from this

community and I want to be very clear

when I say that I believe their stories

and that abuse shouldn't happen period

right there's there is a problem with

abuse clearly we've heard the stories of

these women and men we had there was men

testified to and they were against the

bill because they believed that the bill

would embolden their leaders and so I

had I disagree unfortunately like while

very strongly saying I support these

women they think they need resources and

I think the office of victims of crimes

this should be there for them which it

is I don't necessarily think that's true

because I think the crimes that they're

facing are crimes

anyway right you know domestic violence

isn't only a crime when it's connected

to polygamy that's a crime anyway that

should be prosecuted the crimes that

most people associate with polygamy and

I have a lot of people want me to

comment on rape and abuse and

trafficking and to that I say you know

rape is one of the most under prosecuted

crimes in America and it should be

prosecuted regardless of how many wives

the perpetrator has so that's the hope

of the enhancements is that if you're

committing these crimes

you know you should be prosecuted for it

so I will say that that one of the

biggest proponents against the bill were

women who've left the Kingston's and

again their stories need to be validated

those are women who have experienced a

lot of abuse and trauma and I feel for

them interestingly the Kingston's did

come out with a formal statement against

the bill they were one of the only

fundamentalist churches that did so you

know it wasn't all why would they do

that I mean I understand the limit they

have left but why would the why would

the group itself come out against so

according to their statement they were

upset with the enhancements because it

continued the idea that there is a

second-class citizen tree that you know

rapists somehow different if you're

polygamous committing it or abuse like

you know and I agree with that in a

perfect world domestic violence would be

prosecuted across the board right I mean

but it's a crime anyway and so I get

that argument but I still think it has

to be there to protect victims and also

if if nothing else that's minimum to

have victims feel heard in the

legislative process because that is that

is a reality across in all communities

you know abuse happens and so there

needs to be a way to ensure that victims

feel protected was your interest in

polygamy did that come after your

dissertation because that's been more

recent right yeah I mean I'm interested

in fundamentalism I you know it seems

weird to say that you know polygamy is

the least interesting part of

fundamentalism to me but it is it is and

I think especially because the polygamy

has the fundamentals when polygamy have

come to be used interchangeably you know

people will say the polygamist groups or

the polygamists morality there's a lot

of fundamentals who aren't living

polygamy right now and so I think that's

a weird misnomer and you know with

sister wives and which is it's a good

show and big love there's so much

attention to polygamy that I think I

don't I think most people think that a

fundamentalist Mormon is an LDS person

with a lot of wives or they don't

realize that there is deep

theological and historical differences

mm-hmm and those are the differences

that I think are most interesting okay

you know I saw recently a Gallup poll

from 2017 that said that here would that

19% of people in the country in the US

believe that polygamy is morally

acceptable great there was there was a

guy that started a church in 1830 that

thought so too

yeah that's a pretty high number

I don't know that you'd have nineteen

percent though in 1830 they would know I

mean I mean all the way through Lincoln

now you know polygamy was a pretty big

issue right and I mean it's hard to

like it's tough but the truth is when

the same-sex marriage was legalized a

lot of people said what's next polygamy

and there were a few people a lot of

people me included that we're like

hopefully like let's do it legalization

is a is tricky

most fundaments I don't know many

fundamentalists that want it legal and

I'm very firmly in the camp of I would

like to see it legal

federally mmm-hmm what's the obstacle

for that right now I mean yeah you got

Utah that's decriminalized or however

you're defining this you say Utah or

Arizona has already been there what

about federally I mean what what's

what's the difference why does

that matter if there's federal law

against it

yeah I mean federal decriminalization I

think will happen eventually

absolutely what makes legalization not

legally I don't I think I mean you know

in a hundred years I think eventually

well what makes it hard is to legalize

polygamy you're gonna have to revise tax

law you're gonna have to rebuy is how

marriage license are distributed you're

gonna have to revise Social Security

you're gonna have to revise a lot right

because if a polygamous man dies who get

like who gets benefits so there's a lot

more at play in terms of or like alimony

which is one of the big reasons I want

polygamy legalized for alimony and for

health insurance for children and so

that that would take a huge upheaval in

a lot of different systems not just the

systems to make it happen and I think

that's a lot of work that people aren't

fully prepared for Kody Brown who is the

fundamentalist man who was on Sister

Wives

they tried taking a case to the Supreme

Court the Supreme Court said they

wouldn't hear the case except that based

on religious freedom again you know

polygamy in Utah we the bill was based

on harm reduction so they wouldn't take

the case because of religious freedom on

the grounds of religious freedom there's

also the Supreme Court then is basically

saying we're not gonna mess with this is

a free a religious freedom

issue and we're not gonna mess with it

basically yes so they wouldn't hear it

the case is there a precedent that they

might in the future maybe I think you

know the hard one logistical I think

logistically it makes sense for states

to decriminalize and I think it makes

sense for states to so Utah has a

history of throwing out polygamy cases

brought before the Supreme Court the

states and kind of just getting rid of

them and I think that's smart because

Utah certainly doesn't want to be the

state that has taken to the Federal

Supreme Court for this right knows the

messy side I don't I don't think any

state wants to be the so-and-so versus

Kentucky so like I think any state wants

that but I don't think that they want it

to be Jessup versus Utah and I say

Jessup not because that's a real family

that's a that's a really prominent

polygamous name or Barlow you know no

one wants no state wants to be Barlow

versus in terms of the polygamy the

thing that's gonna do it finally and so

I do think it is in most states best

interest to continue to throw them out

however I think that's the only way to

get legalization to happen federally is

to have it taken to the Federal Supreme

Court so decide things really fascinates

me so you're uh you say that

you're on the Left you lean to the left

right so a bleeding-heart liberal a

bleeding-heart liberal okay so you're

for polygamy not you personally but you

are you are for the legalization of

polygamy that most bleeding-heart

liberals if I spoke to bleeding-heart

liberals especially women are going to

be completely against I don't know I

mean I haven't obviously done a poll I

just talked to people I want to say that

most liberals would and I know I you

know I think what most people who lean

politically the way I do have would say

and I think it's because I have seen it

is I don't care what people do as long

as they're not hurting children right

it's a libertarian that's a libertarian

statement or as long but like I've seen

a lot of Democrats say like I don't care

if people are polygamists as long as

they're not marrying children which come

you know is the historic stigma of you

know I think that patriarchal structure

isn't gonna be an issue I think people

don't like it but that's I see more of

the claim of or I do see a lot of people

say if this is legalized can women have

more than one husband to which I would

say I don't care I mean I don't I don't

care what people do in terms of their

marital structure I don't feel it'll

hurt people I don't want people marrying

children but you know I don't I don't

care I and that's why I say I don't my

issue with polygamy and the reason why I

was so for decriminalization it was not

because I like it you know I've been so

many people have said you're Pro

polygamy no nope

not I would never choose it I don't like

it and you know the great polygamist

families that I consider friends know

that you know I don't like it

but and I and I didn't I'm not for

legalization and decriminalization

because I like it or because you know I

like the patriarchy here because I let

you know I I support it because of harm

reduction because I do think that we

have hurt more women that we like the

law that was put in place to supposedly

help women and children has failed them

mm-hmm ardently failed them so I mean if

you're gonna tell me that you want to

help victims of abuse or domestic

violence that's a great cause but the

domestic violence coalition said that in

that in 2017 when HB 99 passed which

were

firm the felony status of polygamy that

there was a quote chilling effect that

when there was a decrease in women's

support women reporting domestic

violence from polygamous communities

so if you're gonna tell me that you want

to help domestic violence victims you

can't also tell me that HB 99 worked

because it didn't we have the data

now but it didn't work what would be the

one thing you want everybody to

understand based on your experience we

talking about a mostly LDS audience um I

mean I could say one thing probably -

yeah well I mean they're mostly LDS

audience I mean I think it's so easy to

think of polygamy as something that

happened a long time ago but and it did

it was people's ancestors it would make

it was they might have been your

ancestors and most people love their

ancestors most Mormons I know love their

ancestors and the reality is those

people are still alive today and those

people are going to be people's

ancestors one day and so I would ask

people to realize that these are just

people living their Mormon faith in the

way that they think is the way to do it

and it might not be the way you want to

do it it might not be the way your

friends want to do it or your bishop but

they're living there Mormonism the earth

they think is most true and I would

encourage people to kind of reconsider

the way that they think of those

polygamists over there far away because

they're not that far away there are

people and there you and I would

encourage people if there

willing to meet a fundamentalist meet

a polygamist person you know when I took

an ethnography class in grad school I

was taught two things that will stay

with me forever the first was all

ethnography is based on ten seconds of

courage and it's true explain of

photography look like studying people

hanging out with people and writing

about them but the second was the value

of spending time with people that aren't

like you and I am forever a better

person because of my fundamentalist

friends who not only encouraged me to

think bigger about the world but also

who made me have to question the ways

that I'm a fundamentalist in my own

thinking or the ways that I am more

similar to them than not and so I would

encourage people to meet people who

aren't like you and to really not look

at them as strange or weird or different

but look at them as you and how you

would want to be looked at right because

Mormonism has a long history of

persecution and prosecution and don't

turn that on its head and become the

person that persecutes and prosecutes

another Mormon another question for you

this the SP 102 doesn't seem to have

gotten much national press I wrote an

op-ed for the Washington Post and they

didn't run it you really yeah what is up

with that is surprising to me this seems

to me like this would be this lightning

rod you know that that in Utah this is

being decriminalized why is this not

being covered yes

I saw an article in the San Francisco

Chronicle there was one in Idaho but

there's hardly any national coverage on

this I had like a my I wrote an op-ed

for the Tribune and it was widely shared

by like cult watch like you know like

it's like national things that aren't

news but yeah it wasn't widely covered

and that wasn't you know I once it got

to the voting you know once the set they

said the Senate voted unanimously I saw

that it wasn't in the house wasn't

unanimous but it was a large majority it

was unanimous in the house committee and

then it was 69 to 3 and then someone

that wasn't there came in and said I

my vote to be counted as a yes because I

want to go on record as a yes it ended

up being somebody - so two people in the

entire Utah Legislature

voted no - but that's huge that doesn't

happen and it still didn't get

widespread especially in Utah where you

know just a few years ago Utah

reaffirmed the felony status of polygamy

just last year HB 214 listed bigamy as

one of the quote violent crimes you can

receive reparations for so given all of

that I thought it was wild I mean I

thought yeah I thought everyone would be

like look at Utah it's odd it really is

because it seems like such a number one

I mean it seems like such clickbait and

again Washington Post I tried I wrote an

op-ed for the post yeah like it wasn't

and they said we can't run this and

I mean very surprising there was a lot I

mean this was just a few this was you

know February COVID 19 had already kind

of started so there was a lot going on

you know with the impeachment you can't

really you know compete with pandemic

and a presidential impeachment it's very

hard

competing with what nationally there's

something there's something odd about

that there's just you take it you talk

press though Deseret News had to op eds

I want to say the set in the last

article that was run on it was kind of

an overview of the issue and it was

really well done I am a Salt Lake

Tribune girl not a Deseret news girl but

I was really impressed with how they

rant with Italy people in Utah will

understand that it goes back to me being

a Democrat spoilers but I was really

impressed with how they did that one

last question

so some of the women in polygamy that

you said the example of okay I would

love to be able to have children a bunch

of children but I also want a career

this sounds like something that would

work for me it are there would you say

that some of the women that are in

polygamous relationships are would count

themselves

being feminist yeah okay absolutely I

mean I know I know

polygamist women that would call

themselves feminists so that's not that

that's really interesting that's not a

hypothetical abstract I know those women

mm-hmm and again I know women that

converted to fundamentalism and granted

they didn't convert necessarily because

of polygamy they converted because of

either the historic priesthood claims or

because of you because of the Adam God

doctrine the big one that gets

conversion is the changes to the temple

endowment specifically 1990 its

doctrinal mostly for them yeah and I

mean polygamy is a doctrine too but it's

when I say it's bigger

I mean claims to priesthood Authority

that is the foundation of Mormonism and

so if you have a group claiming a

different priesthood authority structure

in history and it's compelling that that

does do it and so there are definitely I

mean you know 1978 the LDS Church looked

at the priesthood ban and hundreds of

people converted to the Apostolic United

Brethren overnight so I think a lot of

the quote progressive changes in the LDS

Church most people who are LDS who I

know would consider them positive right

most people I know think that the temple

ban being lifted was great and I agree

with that I support but I note but

there's absolutely obvious people that

didn't support it and I think that's

that's strange for people to think but

it's true

yeah well it's a large Church

you know people from all stripes so

completely sure well Christina thank you

so much for your time I mean really and

your you're a fountain of information on

this and knowledge and I really

appreciate your sharing the stores all

your background at research and time

spent with these people it's in with SB

102 it's fast and it's a

fascinating subject so hopefully maybe

one day we can do it again yeah thank

you so much for having me really

appreciate it

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