Cristina Rosetti, PhD one of the few non-LDS Mormon scholars, talks about her experience and research with polygamy and Mormon Fundamentalists. Cristina also testified in the Utah State Senate and House advocating for Utah SB 102.
- How long did polygamy continue after 1890?
- What are some core doctrinal differences from the LDS Church?
- Are there polygamous women who are feminists?
- Polygamy in Utah is now effectively decriminalized, why?
A good book on this subject -
American Polygamy: A History of Fundamentalist Mormon Faith by Craig L. Foster
Amazon- https://amzn.to/2VeD305
Podcast Links:
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cwic-media/id1428167000
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3BNjs4EJqo0iK4LURdTPDb
Cwic Show LDS, Mormon, Polygamy
so Christina let's talk polygamy
let's talk first of all I wanted to get
get an idea of what brought you into
studying in the Mormon studies just the
background on that what launched that
not a lot of people outside of the
church are studying Mormon studies it's
kind of a select group so what brought
you into that yeah I can I can count
them on probably two hands yeah and we
kind of know each other at Mormon
History Association and see each other
but I during grad school when I first
started grad school I was really
interested in the 19th century and
because it was just such an interesting
time for religion in America especially
around the Second Great Awakening and I
was assigned rough stone rolling and I
fell in love with it I fell in love with
the story of Joseph Smith I was
captivated by these people that gave
everything for this idea of restoration
and I wanted to know everything I could
about this church and about Joseph Smith
and I started I went on Amazon I spent
way too much money and I bought every
book I could find and I went to the
library and I got every single book on
Mormonism and I read all of them how far
down the rabbit hole did you go oh I
mean I it's bent
it's now been eight years yeah so over
six seven years so and it's all I
do
I mean that's all I do is I read
Mormon history and so I told my woman
who then became my advisor that I wanted
to study Mormonism and given that I was
interested in ethnography and the lived
experience of people she told me why
don't you go meet the Mormons and I went
into a why I say
no I went to an institute first and I
went into a why I was then invited to a
why I say ward from people at my
Institute and it was so different than
the book I had read and it just
didn't feel like the book I had read
like where were the you know saints that
were practicing and I'd order and where
was the polygamy where was all of this
and I won't lie there was a little bit
of disappointment in me that it wasn't
the 19th century all of a sudden in the
21st century and I eventually ended up
meeting fundamentalist Mormons and
finding the Mormons that I had so badly
wanted to meet from rough stone rolling
mm-hmm so you had more of an experience
a 19th century experience with them I
did I mean of course they most people
kind of in their head imagine
polygamists or fundamentalist Mormons
wearing Prairie dresses with the hair
bump that's kind of imagining of what a
fundamentalist Mormon looks like or is
right the reality is that's only one
specific church that's the FLDS they
dress like that but most fundamentalist
Mormons look like that is that the
largest by the way is that the largest
organization polygamist organization not
anymore
normally there was a time where it was
one of the biggest so there was two that
were I mean if your interest in the
history about why these are big we could
but there was two historically they were
like the two biggest groups and they
were one of them for a long time but
today and for a long time most
polygamist Mormons just look like us and
so the dress was very contemporary but
there was definitely a feel of this 19th
century faith being revived and lived in
the contemporary moment and so that was
really interesting to me and it still
remains something interesting to me even
though one of the things I talked about
quite a bit with people is how mundane
it is people want polygamy to be this
strange weird thing or people want
fundamentals Mormonism to be so weird
and the reality is that it's
usually not not weird okay so you
spent some time with one of these
organizations yes people yes so I've
spent some time with several different
groups the one that I've spent the most
time with is called the righteous branch
of the Church of Jesus Christ of
latter-day saints a lot of the names of
these groups are very long they go back
Christ’s church for short and then for
people who study Mormonism would be
more familiar with how fundamentalist
groups are named the Petersons group is
kind of what they're called because of
their early founders
um and I spent quite a bit of time with
them learning their history and meeting
these people and seeing how their
families work and seeing how their
religious lives work and then now given
all the time I've spent in this world I
know quite a bit of fundamentalist
Mormons from all different backgrounds
and even people that aren't actually
part of a church or a group they're just
independently Mormon and spending this
time with them what I mean what did you
it's something it's a world obviously
the most people know nothing about or
they have like you say a certain
assumptions right what did you
glean from this I mean what was
there anything really surprising to you
what did you pull out of this
experience
um I mean that's there's a lot you know
I mean I I spent so much time doing this
I think one of the things that that is
most apparent to me is just how Mormon
there are and I and I think that's the
most and how just like us they are I
mean right they're everyone's people
everyone's just people doing their best
to live their faith and when I say how
Mormon they are you know there's a
history of Mormon persecution and
prosecution that a lot of people who are
familiar with Mormonism will recognize
and that didn't stop that's still a
reality for a lot of Mormons in the
American West and in the Intermountain
West I mean and even things that I kind
of take for granted as being LDS you
know when you go to a fundamentalist
meeting house they're singing praise to
the man they're singing we think the Oh
God for a prophet they're taking the
sacrament they're doing you know talks
they're folding their arms when they
pray and so kind of realizing how
similar these movements are that have
been made out to be so different from
each other
now you said though like originally you
said when you went out there though you
went to Institute you went to the YSA
ward and you said you were a little
disappointed but now you're saying
they're kind of the same so there's some
things that are saying but something
they're definitely different yeah I mean
and no one is gonna look like the 19th
century right again a lot is there a you
know a most authentic representation of
Mormonism and that's a really hard
question for me to answer or a lot of
people ask me if Joseph Smith comes back
which one would he recognizes his and
the answer is I mean everyone is wearing
jeans like I don't think he's gonna look
at people and say oh those are mine but
yeah I mean I was initially the things
that compelled me about Marmon ISM were
the communitarianism and you know
polygamy is definitely one of them I
DEA's about apotheosis and those aren't
really present in everyday meetings now
you go to an LDS meeting house and it's
just very Protestant in a way right I
mean people are singing hymns talking
about Heavenly Father in Jesus Christ
and the ideas that really made Mormonism
you know peculiar quote-unquote in the
19th century aren't really in the
meeting house and so or you know
certainly not in an institute and so I
found some of that in like remnants of
that in fundamentalism but then you know
and my initial introduction to
fundamentalism was hold me to the
Mormons but the more I spent time with
fundamentalist Mormons the more it just
came to be this is Mormonism I mean this
is just a different expression of a very
dominant American faith mm-hmm did you
you know when you talk about the
United order and the way that they live
is there a what are the pros and cons
that you saw living the way that they do
it's not just for the United order but
obviously I mean there's kind of a it
seems to me that there would be some
type of a connection between polygamy
and United order or the way that they
would they would live that what would
the cons of that be yeah so I mean first
I think it's important that most people
kind of think of Mormonism and they
think of the church or like an instant
or organized group of people or an
institution and I do want to know that
you know a lot of fundamentalist Mormons
aren't part of that so there are a lot
of fundamentalist Mormons who are
practicing polygamy who and there's a
long history of fundamentalist Mormons
not being part of a church and there's
historically grounded reasons
for that but you know the ones that are
part of a church such as the righteous
branch that I talked about and that I
spent significant time with you know one
of my most valuable memories of my
research was waking up early with the
woman that I was staying in her home
waking up very early and going to the
Relief Society kitchen which is a it's
there's a little wing of the temple that
is the Relief Society kitchen next to
the where sacrament meeting happens and
canning with women all day like all day
long and knowing that this food wasn't
just for this family but knowing that
this food was available to everyone in
the community that when they say
there will be no poor among them when
they say we will be of one heart in one
mind
they're taking the steps necessary to
try to attain that for their community
and that was really beautiful to see
that in this community that they're
trying very hard to do that and they
actually don't call it United order
because it's not you know it's not fully
complete and that not everything is held
in common and they called united effort
because it's a effort to get there
Norrish it's served and it was that was
a really powerful thing and on that day
when the women were canning a lot of the
men in the community were laying
concrete and they weren't just laying
concrete for their family they were
doing it for everyone the other kind of
Pro that I see is not necessarily the
big families but the support system
within those families that does come
from polygamy a lot of the women in
these communities that I know that
if God forbid something happens to them
there will be women in their lives that
will raise their children and that's
something that a lot of women don't have
I mean you might have an aunt or a
friend or saw a cousin but that's very
different than having other mother
figures that will bring you in and treat
you as if you were one of their children
because you were for so long so those
are kind of the things that are that I
view as pros/cons I mean I don't ever
want to live polygamy right I think
that's not it's not a marital a marital
system that I would ever want to live
sharing a spouse is hard and one of the
things that I really value about
the communities and the people that I
know is that they have never pretended
it was anything other than hard so yeah
it's I mean it's hard it's hard like I
don't know but you could imagine right
sure sure absolutely so do you do
most of that let's just talk about the
women first on that did I mean are they
looking at this as a sacrifice that
they're living this way because
they feel this is the way they're
supposed to live maybe maybe I'm making
an assumption there but yeah I don't
think I've ever heard of it in terms of
sacrifice per se I mean the women I know
who are living it believe in it right
this is an eternal principle so to them
so of course they're gonna live and live
it I mean it's in their scriptures
they're in a community that is doing
this they have a history of profit
saying you have to live this way so I
don't know if it's I mean of course it
would be a sacrifice but I think the
bigger impulse is people believe in this
people believe that this is the God
ordained way of entering celestial
kingdom and so that's very hard to
remove from people's mindset even though
it's hard I mean there are definitely
some that view in a way of this is a
temporal way of becoming like God and
removing jealousy you know the response
that would be like why don't men have to
get rid of their jealousy yes you know
that's a logical next follow-up question
but I mean there's a long-standing
history of this practice going back to
you know Abraham and so it's hard to rid
that of people's minds especially people
who were born in those people who've had
multiple mothers people who were raised
in polygamous communities now I dunno
converts who join fundamentalism and now
they're you know second third wives
themselves but belief is a powerful
thing so most of the women though I mean
in your experience most of the women
grew up in a fundamentalist family or
group you know I mean with the group the
righteous branch for example a lot of
the women that I was closest to were
hundreds okay and so from the LDS Church
and so
no I mean they were they were primarily
from the LDS Church yes or at least they
joined the LDS Church on their way to
fundamentalism and that is so can I
share a little bit about the history
yeah sure go ahead to make it just kind
of make it make sense um so you know
fundamentalist history fundamentalist
Mormons have their own history of how
polygamy happens and how polygamy
continues to happen we kind of imagine
there being like one Mormon history and
that's just really not the case so um
there's a document that the LDS Church
does not consider to be authentic from
1886 called the 1886 revelation or the
eight-hour meeting which documents then
President John Taylor meeting with Jesus
Christ and the resurrected Joseph Smith
um and really all they say is eternal
principles cannot be revoked and in this
case he's talking about polygamy and
he's in the whole you know he's in
hiding John Taylor was practicing
polygamy the government is coming after
him like this is a scary time for
Mormons and he's in the home of Lawrence
II Willie who is his bodyguard and he
gives this revelation he makes five
copies of this revelation and he gives
it and Lawrence II will he ends up you
know making copies of them and Lorne
will he becomes really one of the
leaders of the early fundamentalist
movement and he brings men together in
forms what is called the Council of
friends and these men believed ardently
that the LDS Church is the church on
earth but there's a priesthood exist
higher than the church and there has
always been a priesthood outside of the
church and they're supposed to keep that
alive and really that's equated with the
priesthood practice of polygamy was this
happening after 1990 or before or 1890
it's happening but so 1886 is when the
revelation happens they formally
organized in 1928 it's kind of squishy
here according to Lawrence II Willie but
I mean the story that polygamy ended in
1890 is really just that it's a story
and I think if people really kind of
logically consider not not whether or
not that was
through revelation that's not what I'm
asking people to consider but if people
sit and consider the logistics of what
that would look like it doesn't actually
make sense
so the first manifesto was released in
1890 President Wilford Woodruff says
we're not gonna practice polygamy
anymore does that mean then that mass
divorce happens certainly not and I
don't think a lot of people who
spout who talk about you know pulling
the ending in 1890 have sat and really
considered what happens to those
children if that story is true what
happened to all these wives if that
story is true because when we talk about
you know I remember being an Institute
well you're breaking up families
obviously I mean you're taking families
and ripping them apart I mean that's a
very how do you massage that whole thing
and how long does that take to
transition right especially I mean I
remember an Institute hearing that
polygamy was first instituted or
practiced widely because when crossing
the plains men died and what are these
women do and if polygamy ended in 1890
in that way you're putting them back in
that same situation so all of a sudden
there's these women who have no family
so I've no income structure what are
they going to do
and so polygamy didn't end 1890 and
there's a large body of literature on
post manifesto polygamy but in 1904 the
LDS Church released the second manifesto
and the second manifesto said now we're
really done with polygamy but of course
polygamy doesn't end in 1904 because
it's the same problem was there a lot of
well that were there a lot of legal
battles going on during say that 14 year
period between 1890 in 1904 so you Tom
received statehood for publicly
disavowing polygamy Nate tonight and I
don't want to be clear there were
definitely LDS people that stopped
practicing polygamy absolutely in 1890 I
don't want to discredit the reality that
that happened but widely and
institutionally no and there were even
temple sealant polygamist temple
ceilings that happened and they're well
documented after 1890 and in 1904 under
continued government pressure now we're
really ending polygamy but of course
again what does that mean how do you end
polygamy how do you end a family
structure especially when for so long
people taught that you needed it for
exaltation and then you know in 1933 we
all gave stretched out did
say no more did end polygamy so 1933 was
a really revolutionary watershed moment
for fundamentalist Mormon ISM because
the line was drawn the line was drawn 40
43 years passed between the first
manifesto bill it was do you do you know
anything about maybe maybe temple
questions or anything like that that
would have happened around then or yeah
so there's a really important temple
question that do you associate with you
know apostate groups like that kind of
notorious question in 1933 the LDS
Church went when I say they drew a line
in the sand and says no more
they started excommunicating people in
that moment that was really that the
moment that excommunication started but
it was also the moment that increased
prosecution started and people started
going to prison so that was a big moment
but it wasn't actually until 1940 that
the notorious question thirteen
I think it's 13 still was introduced in
the general handbook of instruction to
kind of parse out these people and the
reason for that is again people who are
practicing polygamy for those 43 years
believed they were Mormon mm-hmm they
were going to LDS Church they were going
to the temple they were participating in
all facets of LDS worship and to some
extent that's still the case really in
the 1970s that was the case and so there
needed to be a way to ensure who are
these who was who in Mormonism
um so 1933 that really starts in 1933 is
really the time where we see groups
forming and different polygamist people
and so I mentioned the 1928 kind of
forming of what was called or is called
the Council of friends and the council
of friends was a priesthood group and it
was a group of men that really their
only thing was keeping polygamy alive
they were members of the LDS Church they
believed that the LDS Church was the
true church but they had a higher
priesthood they had the sealing keys to
keep polygamy going and it's from those
men those seven men that really the
major fundamentalist groups come from so
within that group was a man named Joseph
Musser
and Joseph Musser ordained a man named
Rulon Allred and from them comes the
line that becomes the Apostolic United
Brethren a lot of people are familiar
with them because they're the ones on TV
they're the sister wives and you know
there are the ones that everyone knows
and then on the other side was a man
named John why Barlow and John way
Barlow really kind of establishes the
community of Short Creek and he is where
the FLDS come from
and rather than agree with the
ordination of Rulon Allred he agrees
with the ordination of Leroy Johnson who
is the FLDS prophet that then ordains
rule and Allred and worse so at this
point then there is a distinction in
priesthood that is that come as far as a
line of priesthood in a claim of
authority so it's complicated
I mean the narrative the fundamental
story which makes sense is that I think
I mean not to you know say which was
true not in I'm not into that game but
when we think of the story of Mormonism
you know what came first the church or
Joseph Smith's ordination which one
well the ordination right so priesthood
existed before the church sure
fundamentalist Mormons say that that's
still true got it so they would argue I
mean and obviously there's very limited
evidence for a quote priesthood a
council of friends or a priesthood
Council existing above the church in the
nineteenth century or in the early you
know 1830s when the form a formal Church
was established but the fundamentalist
movement would argue that there has
always been a priesthood outside of the
church and there is a high priesthood
that continues to exist and what John
Taylor initiated in 1886 was saying the
LDS Church has priesthood they have
authority but there's a higher authority
needed to maintain the ceiling the
plural ceilings and so that's kind of
what they their claim is now that did
change in really in the 70s that did
change there's been at varying
points different fundamentalist groups
have argued that the LDS Church did lose
all their authority in depending on the
fundamentalist group you're asking and
now that's when they started
incorporating as churches but for most
of fundamentalist history
the LDS Church was the church and they
were the priesthood right so the or
some of the organizations then that
you're talking about might claim
completely that it's within their
organization within their church right
when their sect but others that might be
independent for example right would say
they still have the I mean I don't know
about like maybe the Darger family or
what they might claim or how that
works they claim it from previous
organization they were involved with or
they're generally even care I don't know
their generationally independent and you
would have to obviously talk to them for
further details about what that looks
like I'm in their specific faith but
they're a generationally independent
family so a lot of you know when groups
started incorporating there was a large
contingent of families and people that
said you know that is outside of our
purview we were told to keep plugging me
alive we were told to keep the
priesthood alive but we were told not to
establish the church and that comes from
Lauren Wooley who I mentioned who very
emphatically told people not to organize
as a church because there was already a
church we don't need to already here
it's on earth but he did tell people
like this is your job is to keep
clicking me alive and so I mean there's
different ranges so the episodic United
Brethren for most of their history
believe the LDS Church maintains some
authority and was the church there's
other groups like the true and living
church that believes that there re
restoration because the LDS Church lost
everything
so there's shades but really you know
fundamentalism began as a way to keep
polygamy alive and that's not all
fundamentalism is anymore
of course you know consecration the
belief in continuing united order the
continued belief in the atom god doctor
and those are markers of fundamentalism
but most commonly polygamy is the
underlying trend and really the
foundation of the movement okay so back
to the social aspects of this that you
experienced this is probably I'm
guessing I'm assuming that there's it's
it's different among those that are
independent and those that are part of
some of these other organizations these
other churches what is the how different
would for example the righteous branch
what how different is the are the gender
roles compared to modern-day what the
Western modern-day civilization
I mean I guess it depends on what
civilization you're talking about
okay United States yeah 2020 United
States I mean I would say that their
gender roles are very similar to the
LDS Church in terms of affirming an
eternal gender of affirming that there's
something distinct about men and women
that there's something to be said about
what comes like what a woman's role is
and a family I would say that they're
very similar there's nothing really
particularly unique about a
fundamentalist persons view of what
makes someone a man or a woman in terms
of you know conservative Christian
culture mm-hmm so in the righteous
branch for example are most of the women
are many of the women employed are they
yeah yeah so and that's not unique to
them most many fundamentalist women I
know are have steady jobs and that is
something that makes polygamy valuable
to some women is that you know it's very
hard to be a working woman if you want
to have a job and also have a lot of
children and polygamy lets people have
that who might not necessarily be able
to otherwise like for me for example you
know I'm not married but if I want
you know I love my research and I love
everything I do and I really couldn't I
mean I don't I don't want children but I
really couldn't logistically have a lot
of children with life I want to live and
so polygamy lets people do that but most
fundamentalist women I know have gone to
school you know they do have an
education they are you know people kind
of wonder have either meta
fundamentalist and the answer is
probably yes you know they're your
doctors they're your lawyers they're
your grocers they're everyone's
mm-hmm especially in the Intermountain
yes I'm you know if you're and if you're
in Connecticut nothing but if you're in
Utah you have absolutely met a
polygamist person I saw a number I
talked about this previously but a
sudden number that I think is a little
bit more up there actually if 1998 that
there they had estimated forty
seven thousand people that are in these
into either independent or in
groups forty-seven thousand individuals
that are involved with polygamy in Utah
I mean I still think that's low and the
reason for that is you know in a census
right are you gonna you're gonna say
that you're practicing criminal behavior
probably not and we're gonna talk more
about that but you know polygamy has
been criminalized for a very long time
and so are you gonna willfully be like
yes I'm one of those people yeah maybe
but more than that a lot of polygamous
people still attend LDS Church they
consider themselves LDS and so kind of
parsing out when people write down I'm
Mormon what do they mean mm-hmm is it
sparkly complicated what if one of those
people I mean I'm guessing you've spoken
to those people and what how do they
how do they how do they justify that
right because you've got an LDS Church
that is saying hey this is a sin this is
wrong and they're saying well I'm LDS
but I believe in this also so how are
they justifying that yeah so I mean I I
know families that are fundamentalist
they're not necessarily practicing
polygamy but they want to or they
definitely think that that's an eternal
thing they should they're definitely
fundamentalist in their beliefs and they
go to LDS Church several reasons the
first one is one such family doesn't
live in Utah or anywhere near a
fundamentalist group and so where do
they go where they suppose to go to
church right and the LDS Church still
remains a really great place for them to
raise a family for them to teach their
kids the basics of the gospel for them
to teach their kids who Jesus is that
you know this is the history of our
church this is what we are and they can
go home later and you know share the
other doctrines that might not be taught
there so that's kind of one thing
the other is you know there's some
stickiness in the LDS Church's
relationship with polygamy today I'm
sure that it's not it of course is not
espoused as a living ordinance but it is
a spouse as an eternal one potentially
and there you know president Oaks kind
of made some comments in conference last
I'm not this session but the one before
right where people started really
thinking about that about you know he is
married to women he's still to to women
and so what does that mean and so
there's no direct kind of comment on
what that means from leadership but
people have speculated what that means I
mean Carolyn Pierson is an LDS woman who
wrote a book called the ghost of eternal
polygamy where she really tries to
grapple with this like what are we still
a polygamist church if 1:32 is in our
doctrine and plural sealing still happen
and so that's another out right is yes
you know polygamy is not okay to live
with but I'm still part of a polygamous
church you know so at least in the
afterlife at least in the afterlife
right and I mean as long as 132 is
doctrine there's a place for these
families okay so yeah so they're saying
it's an eternal principle but most of
them you're talking about are not living
it no most people that I know that are
living polygamy are either independent
and they're no longer I mean the 70s was
really a catalyst moment for
fundamentalism you know in 1978 though
they are looked at the priesthood ban
and that was a deciding moment for a lot
of fundamentalist communities of does
the church still have authority and so
they didn't they didn't like to change
I'm guessing they kind of looked at it
like well this is just like the last
manifesto in 1890 right where it's
like hey wait a minute you made this
change now polygamy's outlawed and now
you're making this other change in 1978
what's right so there's a lot of I
mean and of course I don't speak like
fundamentalist Mormon ISM is a huge
umbrella there's a wide belief in there
but there are many fundamentalist
Mormons that definitely think that the
1978
lifting of the ban was just one more
moment of succumbing to government
pressure and wasn't actually from God
and so many groups kind of established
churches in that moment saying we now
have to make churches because the LDS
Church is over so that was kind of a
moment so contemporarily many polygamist
people that will either be independent
or go to LDS Church or go to their own
churches but I definitely know families
that are fundamentalist in their beliefs
they aren't currently practicing
polygamy they might want to or are
actively trying to but they're not but
they definitely have beliefs that are
outside of you know what it's considered
LDS norm and they're going to LDS
meeting houses but I mean I think
everyone not necessarily with polygamy
because that's kind of a big one but I
think everyone at some point has known a
person in their wards that will stand up
at fast and testimony and you'll be like
huh that was different
yeah maybe not as oh no you're good like
maybe not necessarily about polygamy but
I mean I had that moment when I was
attending an LDS Ward in 2017 in Utah
and every fasten testimony this man
shared his testimony about you know
these evil spirits in our brains and
very kind man but you know that's not an
LDS doctrine it's not LDS be fair know
inside Bruin everyone in the word
collectively was like huh
and so you know a lot of people with
beliefs that lean fundamentalist might
look similarly right then their LDS
they're very Mormon but there's a few
things that we don't do that anymore
we don't worry about anymore yeah so
this is leading me to SB 102 to me I
mean I'm not in Utah I'm not part of
that world really but which is a very
different world and
you know the church has a difficult
relationship with polygamy obviously you
know the LDS Church and it's like
okay we have tried to separate this
from us their missionary efforts they
want to make sure that people understand
that the fundamentalists are not part of
their group they're they make that
distancing right they have to make that
distancing they feel to appeal to who
they're trying to appeal to and at the
same time it's just fascinating to me
and obviously it's obviously because
there's still so many polygamists in
Utah but that Utah of all places
would be the place to sign into law the
decriminalization of polygamy well kind
of Arizona you're an Arizona correct yes
Arizona actually is effectively
decriminalized long before a Utah I
didn't know that yeah and I mean it's
not fully so decriminalization is hard
only talk about that what we mean Utah I
do agree is the state to watch and I
don't think it's the state to watch
because of the amount of polygamists but
we're one of like we're one of a few
states including Arizona that has it in
our Constitution that you can't have
plug maybe legal Utah's Constitution
says but polygamy and plural marriage is
forever prohibited and so it would take
way more than a bill to make polygamy
legal it would take a full
constitutional amendment so we are one
of a few states now so Nevada is
effectively decriminalized California is
ish decriminalized ish but up until now
it was criminal in Utah but it wasn't
being prosecuted unless it was
associated with other crimes
so polygamy is illegal in all 50 states
right now and it is criminal in all 50
states so yeah so it's still
criminal but Arizona has effectively
decriminalized and the reason for that
is polygamy is hard to prosecute it's a
hard because how does that different
than polyamory for example which is
completely legal
and that's been one of the big points of
contention is why is polyamory illegal
but polygamy is not and the reason for
that is polygamy is a crime
what makes polygamy a crime is if you
cohabitate on one hand one and on the
second is you and purport to be married
so if you cohabitate in a state allowing
through most states that same that same
page yeah so there's a great graph that
was shown during the Senate and the
house hearings committee hearings that
kind of showed where the cohabitation
and reporting could be married states
are but for example Nevada has really
loose cohabitation laws and so you can
cohabitate with seventy people the
minute you say I'm married to them
you're a felon and that doesn't make
sense like that logically doesn't work
right you can like my dad great man who
can you know bring in another woman into
his home and have children with her and
call her mistress and it's fine it's
completely legal but the minute he says
oh I'm married to her too
he's suddenly a felon and so that's how
the polygamy law works and again that I
don't know maybe it's just taking the
name of the man make a difference I mean
I see that a lot of I'd done a little
bit of research on this and a lot of
times what they'll do polygamists will
do is a man he'll have he'll marry the
woman she'll take on his name and then
they'll get legally divorced but she
keeps his name I mean I don't know if
that necessarily affects the law I mean
really what you can't do is you can't
have two marriage licenses so that's
actually called bigamy which is also a
legal um but bigamy kind of carries the
term bigamy carries you know ideas of
fraud and coercion mainly fraud within
it but no I mean taking someone's name
doesn't it's the purporting to be
married whatever that means so and
really that law was done to target
polygamous people fundamentalist Mormon
people in Utah especially that's what
that law was geared toward so the states
that are that
have that are you know the states and
the Mormon belt so Arizona Idaho Nevada
California has had you know kind of
conflict with figuring out Mormonism in
New Mexico so those are the ones that
kind of really had the harshest laws and
even now even with SB 102 passed and
signed and done and officially laws of
may 12 Utah will still have the harshest
polygamy laws in the nation so the news
has kind of made it seem like first of
all the news talked about legalization
which is incorrect and we'll talk about
that and then it talked about full
decriminalization but the reality is we
still have the harshest play laws in the
nation okay but it's still up from what
I understand it's reduced to just an
infraction right
yeah the laws but what about what about
the sentencing yeah so polygamy is
effectively decriminalized and well
what's meant by that is there's two
parts to the bill and a lot of people
read the first part without the second
part and so and it's because the second
parts a little more complicated so the
first part of the bill is that polygamy
will be reduced to an infraction which
is a speeding ticket for otherwise
law-abiding families right so for your
average polygamous family that is just
doing their best and living their life
and not hurting anyone and not criminal
and just being polygamist they are no
longer felons so Maggie might take your
color good they're no longer felon and
so that's the first half now the second
half of the bill is what kind of been
colloquially referred to as the
enhancements and what that means is that
if you are practicing polygamy but it is
associated with other crimes and there's
a long list of those crimes and they
include fraud coercion rape abuse
domestic violence there's a long list
then polygamy will remain a felony so
the intent was to strike a balance
between how do we protect law-abiding
families but also how do we ensure that
people that are really hurting people
and committing abuse how are they held
accountable and so polygamy is an
infraction
as long as it does not accompany other
cramps okay now I'd been I've been
watching the talk about this for a
couple of years you particularly but and
I was just I'm just a lot of a lot of
scholars a lot of from what I would say
and I'm pretty politically independent but
I would say a lot of people on the left
that typically would probably have a
really bad bad view of polygamy very
patriarchal structure the view anyway
would be oppressive but that seems to be
kind of where that this has come from
it's kind of turned around a little bit
where there's this build-up
toward even though it was a Republican I
believe a Republican senator that
sponsored the bill and that was that was
always pretty interesting to me I'm like
wow this is the look where this is
coming from and what do you think the
reasoning is behind that
yeah so I mean do you even agree with
that I don't mean I think the biggest
supporters that I saw were libertarian
and that makes sense of course because
libertarians generally would like all
marriage got the government out of all
marriage let alone you know even
monogamy so that made a lot of sense and
there were a lot of prominent Utah
libertarians who worked on the bill and
so and lobbied for the bill so including
the major libertarian lobbying group
Libertas they lobbied for the bill and
so that of course makes sense right um I
actually did get a lot of pushback from
Democrats and liberals I mean after I
after we started there was a lot I mean
you know I don't I was not living person
in this bill I lobbied it and I talked
about a lot publicly but I think
everyone who talked about it publicly
received a lot of pushback and once I
started having conversations with people
about why I wanted it decriminalized a
lot of you know my fellow Democrats kind
of did come on board but really I saw a
lot of pushback from Democrats saying
that it was oppressive to women and so
yeah I definitely there was the
the times I felt most dragged through
the mud were by my fellow Democrats and
my fellow feminists who how quickly have
forgotten that feminists have railed
against monogamy for a long time - right
so I mean it's not just polygamy that
the feminist movement has sought to get
rid of so sure but I
I mean most of the legislators that I
talked to were Republican I'm in Utah so
of course and so there was definitely
opposition there - I can't really say
who was most opposed but you know
Democrats weren't the Democrats I talked
to weren't really excited initially or
at least they didn't understand why I
would support this so why why would you
say I mean if you were articulating well
here's a question what you testified
both in Utah sent in the Utah Senate and
the house correct hmm okay what was the
questioning primarily so the testimony
is just you just give a testimony and my
testimony and you know it's not it's all
online people can read it I think
there's great arguments to be made for
marriage equality and religious freedom
right I do think it is unconstitutional
from the you know for religious freedom
because of religious freedom - for
polygamy to be I mean I do but that's
actually not my biggest concern my
biggest concern with decriminalization
was a harm reduction effort and what I
mean by that is its twofold
so Utah the law in Utah has created
barriers to access to resources for
people so you know if you carry the
title felon it's very hard to get a job
sure it's very hard to send your kids to
public school if my wife's in a criminal
law I know I know a little bit about
this yeah it's very hard it's there
the law has created not only barriers in
terms of real ones like employment but
there's also social stigma to polygamy
there's a long history of kids getting
made fun of in school because of their
families being polygamist and so you
know the logical conclusion is
if your kid is bullied and you're not
welcome in school you know the
homeschool movement was driven by
polygamists the singer swap family they
created the homeschool movement and then
there's you know I think was Adam swap
who died and he's a martyr for the home
school movement who's a fundamentalist
Mormon so real barriers were created but
the biggest barrier I think that was
created was to law enforcement so if
there's crime and you know most people
kind of think of crime in plug in
fundamentalism as being associated with
you know the family structure but I'm
talking also about things as simple as a
home invasion
fundamentals families are don't feel
safe reporting that and I know a woman
who her home was invaded when she was a
child and she was told that we don't we
can't call nine-one-one because your dad
will be taken there's women who don't
report rape because they don't want to
lose their children to Child Protective
Services there's a long history of that
and the reason for that kind of the big
so I when I testified I talked about you
know I know these women I know women
that don't report crime because they're
afraid of having their family broken up
I know women that don't have access to
health insurance because they're not you
know quote real families and I know
people who have left fundamentalist
movements and believe that they're
leaders who are not great men came to
power because of the law because what
happened was I think this is my argument
when polygamy really underwent its big
heyday and prosecution was it's kind of
hallmarked by the 1953 raid and what
happened was in 1953 the community of
Short Creek which is the historic home
of the FLDS
it was raided by Arizona government a
lot of government like the Joint
Terrorism Task Force was there like it
wasn't just you know cops they took all
the men right a lot they took a lot of
men we also we forget frequently that
women went to prison - during
fifty-three raid and 163 children were
taken and they were put in foster care
and a lot of those kids never went back
to their families so when fundamentalist
Mormons say I'm afraid of losing my
children they're not
as an abstract they're saying that
because it has happened because the
government has taken fundamentals
children from their homes and you know
some people might say that that's a good
thing but the reality is in Short Creek
there were monogamous families that lost
their children - who were down there and
because how do you parse out who's who
and so children were just taken and that
that traumatic memory has followed
fundamentalism for a long time and
created a culture where you don't report
crime because of fear but in the midst
of that that fear was weaponized the
fundamentalist Mormons are around that
time believe that isolation was
increasingly necessary I mean people
moved to Short Creek because they felt
it was necessary but there was an
increasing need for isolation and
unfortunately there were men that came
to power that weaponized fear and they
weaponized isolation and most
notoriously his name is Warren Jeffs and
he's in prison right now
in Palestine Texas and he will not get
out yeah wasn't there was a raid there
too right there was a raid in 2008 yes
in the yearning for Zion ranch in Texas
but it is my argument that and the
argument of a lot of people that he
weaponized the towns isolation and he
weaponized fear of the government and he
was able to create a community where
reporting was discouraged people didn't
report crime in you know in that
community and so you know I have a
friend who tragically I lost him to
suicide last year and he was when I'm
gonna get him optional he was one of
Warren's kids and he was one of my best
friends and he at the end of his life he
really believed that Warren came to
power because of the law and how the law
work and I testified about that in the
Senate and I was kind of like dragged
for bringing him up but it's true that
he thought this and I it ended up
becoming something that I really
believed in that we have the state of
Utah has created a culture where it's
okay to be mean to plug his people it's
okay not to hire them and if you do it's
okay to fire them for their lifestyle
we've created a culture where we put up
barriers to resources and
and we made we created a need for
isolation and so when you put all of
those things together you know a very
strong narrative they don't want us a
very strong narrative we need to be
isolated and a very strong narrative of
the government wants to see your family
in prison those three things together
can become very dangerous do you think
that would be different in a different
state I mean if there were let's say
that let's say you were you brought up
Connecticut let's say there was a lot of
polygamists in Connecticut would it be
different there I think you know I think
the history of prosecution in Utah
really ramped it up right you know the
1944 and 1953 raid happened here on the
border of Utah and Arizona so I think
Arizona would be similar because you
know a lot of FLDS families lived in
Arizona I think so I think the Utah yes
created a very specific context where
this could happen and so yeah all those
things taken together I think
decriminalization was a harm reduction
issue it was to break down the barriers
of access and it was to allow people to
be able to report crime in terms of
resources a woman named Shirley Draper
she's incredible if anyone wants to help
an organization that helps
fundamentalist or helps people trying to
leave she does both cherish families is
the place to go Irish families cherish
families she you know they're the only
organization that helps fundamentalist
and people trying to leave which is
incredible they're not discriminating
you know and they're also if people want
to leave they're not asking them to
abandon their faith in order to get
resources there they're meeting people
where they're at but she was raised FLDS
and in Short Creek in Colorado City and
she testified that she left and a few
years later her mom tried to leave and
her mom went to went to St. George with
with her and tried to get a driver's
license and she was told we don't want
you and yes that was one clerk that
doesn't represent you know the DMV
system but that one clerk made her go
back to Colorado City where she died hmm
so the law in Utah in ways that I don't
think most people think about has
people trying to leave go back so you
know it's done a lot of harm that
is unseen harm I don't I don't think
people think about this in a you know in
that kind of way now you're talking
again you got you've got I think it
seems like you're talking about two
different groups within fundamentalism
then it's because you're saying people
here that really want to leave and yet
you also are talking about and we get it
we're poster talking about women here
but a lot of women that want to stay
right I mean they want and maybe that's
an FLDS thing I don't know but I mean I
do want to say one of the largest groups
of people that testified against the
bill were former members of a prominent
fundamentalist community in Utah they
have been all over the news they're
called the Kingston group they have not
for this that they've been in the news
for monetary fraud and a lot of the
people that spoke out against the bill
were victims of abuse from this
community and I want to be very clear
when I say that I believe their stories
and that abuse shouldn't happen period
right there's there is a problem with
abuse clearly we've heard the stories of
these women and men we had there was men
testified to and they were against the
bill because they believed that the bill
would embolden their leaders and so I
had I disagree unfortunately like while
very strongly saying I support these
women they think they need resources and
I think the office of victims of crimes
this should be there for them which it
is I don't necessarily think that's true
because I think the crimes that they're
facing are crimes
anyway right you know domestic violence
isn't only a crime when it's connected
to polygamy that's a crime anyway that
should be prosecuted the crimes that
most people associate with polygamy and
I have a lot of people want me to
comment on rape and abuse and
trafficking and to that I say you know
rape is one of the most under prosecuted
crimes in America and it should be
prosecuted regardless of how many wives
the perpetrator has so that's the hope
of the enhancements is that if you're
committing these crimes
you know you should be prosecuted for it
so I will say that that one of the
biggest proponents against the bill were
women who've left the Kingston's and
again their stories need to be validated
those are women who have experienced a
lot of abuse and trauma and I feel for
them interestingly the Kingston's did
come out with a formal statement against
the bill they were one of the only
fundamentalist churches that did so you
know it wasn't all why would they do
that I mean I understand the limit they
have left but why would the why would
the group itself come out against so
according to their statement they were
upset with the enhancements because it
continued the idea that there is a
second-class citizen tree that you know
rapists somehow different if you're
polygamous committing it or abuse like
you know and I agree with that in a
perfect world domestic violence would be
prosecuted across the board right I mean
but it's a crime anyway and so I get
that argument but I still think it has
to be there to protect victims and also
if if nothing else that's minimum to
have victims feel heard in the
legislative process because that is that
is a reality across in all communities
you know abuse happens and so there
needs to be a way to ensure that victims
feel protected was your interest in
polygamy did that come after your
dissertation because that's been more
recent right yeah I mean I'm interested
in fundamentalism I you know it seems
weird to say that you know polygamy is
the least interesting part of
fundamentalism to me but it is it is and
I think especially because the polygamy
has the fundamentals when polygamy have
come to be used interchangeably you know
people will say the polygamist groups or
the polygamists morality there's a lot
of fundamentals who aren't living
polygamy right now and so I think that's
a weird misnomer and you know with
sister wives and which is it's a good
show and big love there's so much
attention to polygamy that I think I
don't I think most people think that a
fundamentalist Mormon is an LDS person
with a lot of wives or they don't
realize that there is deep
theological and historical differences
mm-hmm and those are the differences
that I think are most interesting okay
you know I saw recently a Gallup poll
from 2017 that said that here would that
19% of people in the country in the US
believe that polygamy is morally
acceptable great there was there was a
guy that started a church in 1830 that
thought so too
yeah that's a pretty high number
I don't know that you'd have nineteen
percent though in 1830 they would know I
mean I mean all the way through Lincoln
now you know polygamy was a pretty big
issue right and I mean it's hard to
like it's tough but the truth is when
the same-sex marriage was legalized a
lot of people said what's next polygamy
and there were a few people a lot of
people me included that we're like
hopefully like let's do it legalization
is a is tricky
most fundaments I don't know many
fundamentalists that want it legal and
I'm very firmly in the camp of I would
like to see it legal
federally mmm-hmm what's the obstacle
for that right now I mean yeah you got
Utah that's decriminalized or however
you're defining this you say Utah or
Arizona has already been there what
about federally I mean what what's
what's the difference why does
that matter if there's federal law
against it
yeah I mean federal decriminalization I
think will happen eventually
absolutely what makes legalization not
legally I don't I think I mean you know
in a hundred years I think eventually
well what makes it hard is to legalize
polygamy you're gonna have to revise tax
law you're gonna have to rebuy is how
marriage license are distributed you're
gonna have to revise Social Security
you're gonna have to revise a lot right
because if a polygamous man dies who get
like who gets benefits so there's a lot
more at play in terms of or like alimony
which is one of the big reasons I want
polygamy legalized for alimony and for
health insurance for children and so
that that would take a huge upheaval in
a lot of different systems not just the
systems to make it happen and I think
that's a lot of work that people aren't
fully prepared for Kody Brown who is the
fundamentalist man who was on Sister
Wives
they tried taking a case to the Supreme
Court the Supreme Court said they
wouldn't hear the case except that based
on religious freedom again you know
polygamy in Utah we the bill was based
on harm reduction so they wouldn't take
the case because of religious freedom on
the grounds of religious freedom there's
also the Supreme Court then is basically
saying we're not gonna mess with this is
a free a religious freedom
issue and we're not gonna mess with it
basically yes so they wouldn't hear it
the case is there a precedent that they
might in the future maybe I think you
know the hard one logistical I think
logistically it makes sense for states
to decriminalize and I think it makes
sense for states to so Utah has a
history of throwing out polygamy cases
brought before the Supreme Court the
states and kind of just getting rid of
them and I think that's smart because
Utah certainly doesn't want to be the
state that has taken to the Federal
Supreme Court for this right knows the
messy side I don't I don't think any
state wants to be the so-and-so versus
Kentucky so like I think any state wants
that but I don't think that they want it
to be Jessup versus Utah and I say
Jessup not because that's a real family
that's a that's a really prominent
polygamous name or Barlow you know no
one wants no state wants to be Barlow
versus in terms of the polygamy the
thing that's gonna do it finally and so
I do think it is in most states best
interest to continue to throw them out
however I think that's the only way to
get legalization to happen federally is
to have it taken to the Federal Supreme
Court so decide things really fascinates
me so you're uh you say that
you're on the Left you lean to the left
right so a bleeding-heart liberal a
bleeding-heart liberal okay so you're
for polygamy not you personally but you
are you are for the legalization of
polygamy that most bleeding-heart
liberals if I spoke to bleeding-heart
liberals especially women are going to
be completely against I don't know I
mean I haven't obviously done a poll I
just talked to people I want to say that
most liberals would and I know I you
know I think what most people who lean
politically the way I do have would say
and I think it's because I have seen it
is I don't care what people do as long
as they're not hurting children right
it's a libertarian that's a libertarian
statement or as long but like I've seen
a lot of Democrats say like I don't care
if people are polygamists as long as
they're not marrying children which come
you know is the historic stigma of you
know I think that patriarchal structure
isn't gonna be an issue I think people
don't like it but that's I see more of
the claim of or I do see a lot of people
say if this is legalized can women have
more than one husband to which I would
say I don't care I mean I don't I don't
care what people do in terms of their
marital structure I don't feel it'll
hurt people I don't want people marrying
children but you know I don't I don't
care I and that's why I say I don't my
issue with polygamy and the reason why I
was so for decriminalization it was not
because I like it you know I've been so
many people have said you're Pro
polygamy no nope
not I would never choose it I don't like
it and you know the great polygamist
families that I consider friends know
that you know I don't like it
but and I and I didn't I'm not for
legalization and decriminalization
because I like it or because you know I
like the patriarchy here because I let
you know I I support it because of harm
reduction because I do think that we
have hurt more women that we like the
law that was put in place to supposedly
help women and children has failed them
mm-hmm ardently failed them so I mean if
you're gonna tell me that you want to
help victims of abuse or domestic
violence that's a great cause but the
domestic violence coalition said that in
that in 2017 when HB 99 passed which
were
firm the felony status of polygamy that
there was a quote chilling effect that
when there was a decrease in women's
support women reporting domestic
violence from polygamous communities
so if you're gonna tell me that you want
to help domestic violence victims you
can't also tell me that HB 99 worked
because it didn't we have the data
now but it didn't work what would be the
one thing you want everybody to
understand based on your experience we
talking about a mostly LDS audience um I
mean I could say one thing probably -
yeah well I mean they're mostly LDS
audience I mean I think it's so easy to
think of polygamy as something that
happened a long time ago but and it did
it was people's ancestors it would make
it was they might have been your
ancestors and most people love their
ancestors most Mormons I know love their
ancestors and the reality is those
people are still alive today and those
people are going to be people's
ancestors one day and so I would ask
people to realize that these are just
people living their Mormon faith in the
way that they think is the way to do it
and it might not be the way you want to
do it it might not be the way your
friends want to do it or your bishop but
they're living there Mormonism the earth
they think is most true and I would
encourage people to kind of reconsider
the way that they think of those
polygamists over there far away because
they're not that far away there are
people and there you and I would
encourage people if there
willing to meet a fundamentalist meet
a polygamist person you know when I took
an ethnography class in grad school I
was taught two things that will stay
with me forever the first was all
ethnography is based on ten seconds of
courage and it's true explain of
photography look like studying people
hanging out with people and writing
about them but the second was the value
of spending time with people that aren't
like you and I am forever a better
person because of my fundamentalist
friends who not only encouraged me to
think bigger about the world but also
who made me have to question the ways
that I'm a fundamentalist in my own
thinking or the ways that I am more
similar to them than not and so I would
encourage people to meet people who
aren't like you and to really not look
at them as strange or weird or different
but look at them as you and how you
would want to be looked at right because
Mormonism has a long history of
persecution and prosecution and don't
turn that on its head and become the
person that persecutes and prosecutes
another Mormon another question for you
this the SP 102 doesn't seem to have
gotten much national press I wrote an
op-ed for the Washington Post and they
didn't run it you really yeah what is up
with that is surprising to me this seems
to me like this would be this lightning
rod you know that that in Utah this is
being decriminalized why is this not
being covered yes
I saw an article in the San Francisco
Chronicle there was one in Idaho but
there's hardly any national coverage on
this I had like a my I wrote an op-ed
for the Tribune and it was widely shared
by like cult watch like you know like
it's like national things that aren't
news but yeah it wasn't widely covered
and that wasn't you know I once it got
to the voting you know once the set they
said the Senate voted unanimously I saw
that it wasn't in the house wasn't
unanimous but it was a large majority it
was unanimous in the house committee and
then it was 69 to 3 and then someone
that wasn't there came in and said I
my vote to be counted as a yes because I
want to go on record as a yes it ended
up being somebody - so two people in the
entire Utah Legislature
voted no - but that's huge that doesn't
happen and it still didn't get
widespread especially in Utah where you
know just a few years ago Utah
reaffirmed the felony status of polygamy
just last year HB 214 listed bigamy as
one of the quote violent crimes you can
receive reparations for so given all of
that I thought it was wild I mean I
thought yeah I thought everyone would be
like look at Utah it's odd it really is
because it seems like such a number one
I mean it seems like such clickbait and
again Washington Post I tried I wrote an
op-ed for the post yeah like it wasn't
and they said we can't run this and
I mean very surprising there was a lot I
mean this was just a few this was you
know February COVID 19 had already kind
of started so there was a lot going on
you know with the impeachment you can't
really you know compete with pandemic
and a presidential impeachment it's very
hard
competing with what nationally there's
something there's something odd about
that there's just you take it you talk
press though Deseret News had to op eds
I want to say the set in the last
article that was run on it was kind of
an overview of the issue and it was
really well done I am a Salt Lake
Tribune girl not a Deseret news girl but
I was really impressed with how they
rant with Italy people in Utah will
understand that it goes back to me being
a Democrat spoilers but I was really
impressed with how they did that one
last question
so some of the women in polygamy that
you said the example of okay I would
love to be able to have children a bunch
of children but I also want a career
this sounds like something that would
work for me it are there would you say
that some of the women that are in
polygamous relationships are would count
themselves
being feminist yeah okay absolutely I
mean I know I know
polygamist women that would call
themselves feminists so that's not that
that's really interesting that's not a
hypothetical abstract I know those women
mm-hmm and again I know women that
converted to fundamentalism and granted
they didn't convert necessarily because
of polygamy they converted because of
either the historic priesthood claims or
because of you because of the Adam God
doctrine the big one that gets
conversion is the changes to the temple
endowment specifically 1990 its
doctrinal mostly for them yeah and I
mean polygamy is a doctrine too but it's
when I say it's bigger
I mean claims to priesthood Authority
that is the foundation of Mormonism and
so if you have a group claiming a
different priesthood authority structure
in history and it's compelling that that
does do it and so there are definitely I
mean you know 1978 the LDS Church looked
at the priesthood ban and hundreds of
people converted to the Apostolic United
Brethren overnight so I think a lot of
the quote progressive changes in the LDS
Church most people who are LDS who I
know would consider them positive right
most people I know think that the temple
ban being lifted was great and I agree
with that I support but I note but
there's absolutely obvious people that
didn't support it and I think that's
that's strange for people to think but
it's true
yeah well it's a large Church
you know people from all stripes so
completely sure well Christina thank you
so much for your time I mean really and
your you're a fountain of information on
this and knowledge and I really
appreciate your sharing the stores all
your background at research and time
spent with these people it's in with SB
102 it's fast and it's a
fascinating subject so hopefully maybe
one day we can do it again yeah thank
you so much for having me really
appreciate it
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