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quick week so some very big latterday
Saint news today the church has acquired
from The Community of Christ the
Kirtland Temple along with several
Nauvoo properties and several historical
documents including some that are
written by Joseph Smith and the
manuscripts from the Joseph Smith
translation as well as some other
personal items of the Smith family and
Joseph Smith the total transaction was
$12.5 million now before we bring on
Steven Piner who I believe broke the
story before the church even put this
out on the church
Newsroom I just want to say this is very
good news obviously for latterday Saints
but there's really something about
focusing so much on your heritage and on
your history and your founding as we
look back toward the events of the
founding of the church it strengthens
our identity even our truth claims and
brings us closer to the other worldly
experiences had by Joseph Smith and some
of the early church members and that is
crucial for us to identify and tie
ourselves to those events the first
vision and all that happened at the
Kirtland Temple Moses Elias Elijah all
appearing and bringing the keys of their
dispensation and of their stewardship
with a priesthood this of course looking
at the Kirtland Temple is what gives
that vessel its greatest value and
anything that is a personal item or that
was a physical manifestation of
inspiration such as the Joseph Smith
translation manuscripts or even a
portrait of Joseph and Emma and letters
between Emma and Joseph and others tie
you back to say hey this was real Point
our eyes and our hearts and our minds
back to that founding and to those
miraculous events that opened up the
last dispensation now Steven Piner my
guest has a unique perspective on all of
this because he knows so many people in
the Latter-Day Saint Community as well
as in The Community of Christ including
many leaders so I thought bringing him
on would be important to get his
perspective on this even though he's not
a Latter-day Saint or a member of The
Community of Christ Church I think
there's a very good message here I hope
you stay tuned here we
[Music]
go all right welcome to Quick show my
name is Greg Matson I'm your host we
have brought back Stephen Piner from
Mormon book reviews who apparently
Stephen you may have been the one who
break the news here today on the Church
of Jesus Christ of latterday saints
purchasing the Kirtland Temple and many
other assets from The Community of
Christ yeah this is a still developing
story my phone's been exploding but um
basically I had somebody reach out to me
um this afternoon about
223 U my time uh that would be eastern
time in Florida his name is John haek
now this is the
thing I I my platform broke the story
but the person who broke the story was
John Heek who's one high who's of the
most important restoration is historians
and collectors uh who really has an
impressive collection of relics and has
really been tied into the restoration
for a long time now what makes him so
fascinating is he's a strangite and this
is kind of the advantage of book
book reviews is that we we talk to all
the different groups within the
restoration and that builds a lot of
Goodwill because a lot of times these
people are ignored or they're just not
taken that seriously and I say no no
this is a very very important person in
the restoration and he's also very
controversial but he reaches out to me
says Steve he said I got a the new story
that's going to be even bigger than your
Joseph Smith photograph story I'm like
really I said what's this all about and
I said because I'm literally going to
tape an interview at 2:30 and for my
Utah Interfaith Forum Channel with
Monica my new co-host and I'm like he's
like Steve we got to do it or or maybe
and I said well it's only be 45 minutes
long I said and he said well maybe we
can do it afterwards and I said you know
what let's do it now so and he thought
that'd be a good idea too so I hopped on
my zoom and said um to my guests and to
Monica I'm like Wendy's a great person
the my guest um can you give me a little
time here um I need to tape a real quick
interview I don't go live myself like I
do like like you kind of just tape stuff
typically so I was like I need to tape
something really quick so we did a
15-minute interview and John haek was
standing in um Independence Missouri at
the temple lot with the Community of
Christ Temple behind him announcing that
the that the Community of Christ is
selling the temple the Kirtland Temple
and I was just like are you wait and and
I at the time like okay this is a big
story here and I'm just going I'm
trusting my guy here that I've developed
a friendship with to say to say okay you
know what I trust you I believe you I
haven't heard anything from the church
and I said okay John who bought this
church he said is it the church Jesus D
glad are they Saints have bought he said
yes now the reason why John was in the
know on this in many ways first of all
he's got a lot of great connections but
second of all 15 days ago he had offered
$100 million for the for the site
because I guess there are Rumblings it's
like said it wasn't for sale but I knew
that it could be sold so he got together
financing to make a $100 million offer
for the property which essentially would
pay off most of the pensions that are
are owed by the church and he and he
made a he made an offer a written offer
to The Community of Christ 15 days ago
and they they they gave them they Reed
they they acknowledged the receipt of
the proposal okay $100 million do we
know who the who the fin who was
financing this um I would have to ask
John I didn't have the time now John is
a person with a lot of connections and
knows a lot of people um he is a
collector uh he's he's he's pretty
wealthy himself so he has the I guess
you could say he has the potential
connections to be able to put something
together so I guess he must have felt
the pulse or something going on that hey
looks like they're going to be selling
this thing and in his mind he felt it
was important that it stay outside of
the Utah Branch's hands and within what
you could call the more Midwestern based
uh sex of of the restoration because
there is a genuine fear from a lot of
people from these communities Community
of Christ and also all the other groups
that are out out in the midwest that the
church would buy the Kirtland Temple and
then close it to the public and make it
a regular Temple now apparently in the
press release it would later be coming
out says that they don't intend on doing
that so that's one concern now that's
laay I'd be surprised if they if they
changed it I'd be really surprised yeah
so but that was the genuine fear that
John had about it you know and so so he
was like I want we need to save this
from happening so so basically I was I
was really surprised now I have a lot of
connections in The Community of Christ
and you know about seven years ago they
paid $35 million for the printer's
manuscript of the Book of Mormon from
The Community of Christ which was in
their in their archives okay now at the
time I was like okay good this must have
really helped pay off their debts and
maybe put them on solid footing well I
talked to some a couple years ago I'm
talking to some of my sources in
Independence and they say no Steve that
just bought them time there that church
is in deep financial trouble and that's
what I understand yes and I'm I'm
hearing Rumblings about Graceland
University which is their their BYU uh
that that their school is is financially
not well off at this point for my
understanding well I have sources that
have indicated this to me that that are
very reliable that that they're on poor
financial footing as a university so
basically this whole entire church is
has deep Financial Obligations for their
pension fund which is the big thing now
one a couple years ago I talked to one
of my sources in community CR I've been
having this conversation for a couple
years now about hey Will the Kirtland
Temple be sold because it looks to me
like this could happen and one of the
people who has the actually the pastor
one of the largest congregations in the
in in that church told me he says no
that won't happen anytime soon our
church has some properties in California
of campgrounds that are worth millions
and millions of dollars and they would
uh sell those before they would sell the
Kirtland Temple but apparently the
financial situation got so untenable for
the Community of Christ they had no
choice but to sell this property now I
understand this is going to help them
stabilize them financially but it's just
kind I I do feel kind of sad for them
too because you know I have a lot of
friends in that church and they were
very proud to be caretakers uh the
custodians of course of historical sites
now the question that begs the question
they own the Red Brick Store in navoo
they own some of the most important
historic properties in in in navoo they
own the the the plot where Joseph Smith
and ham and Emma are buried you know is
that next I think they were going to
hold on to that last because the Smith
family let me give you a list here I've
got a list of what was purchased and
what I yeah that's out now because as as
of this recording the the Church news
put this out after you did but um here's
what it says the most significant
properties are the Kirtland Temple this
is all part of the transaction here the
Smith family
Homestead the mansion house the navoo
house and the red brick store oh my God
see I have been my phone's been
exploding it's just been constantly
focused on the curtly thing I had no
idea this is yeah so now there's more
there's
documents right so also significant
documents and art facts include
manuscripts and the Bible used in the
Joseph Smith translation of the Bible
seven letters from Joseph Smith to his
wife Emma John whitmer's history of the
church original portraits of Joseph and
Emma Smith the Cornerstone of the NAU
house the original door of Liberty Jail
and a document with a title of Kors
remember that one oh yeah caror which
may contain a simp a sample of
inscriptions from the gold
plates so uh yeah there's quite a bit
here that is uh is is going along with
all of this yeah and just so you know I
I just basically broke the story and
then as soon as I I break the story and
releas it at 3:15 today I'm taping an
interview at 3:20 with somebody about a
food pantry in Utah you know so I so I
had to do that interview that I had an
obligation to do so I'm just hearing
this for the first time and I thank you
for sharing it because then of course my
phone my phone's been exploding because
everybody's talking about the curly
thing but I saw that there there were
other items there this just so you know
folks you know maybe just to give the
context to the audience here you know
because I'm tied in with the Mormon
scholarly community and the historical
Community I'll be giving a presentation
of Mormon history Association in June
and I've done at Whitmer so I'm plugged
into the scholarly community and these
sites of course and I don't even think
you need to be a scholar to understand
the significance not one of the Kirtland
Temple but also the significance of
these very very important properties in
navoo this was their pride and joy this
was they were they took great pride in
in their historic sites uh group like l
maai and Barbara Walden are wonderful
people have done a wonderful job as
caretakers of these important important
things and I think we have to say this
we need to honor the community of Christ
and the people of the Community of
Christ who kept the Smith Legacy that's
the Joseph Smith's family's church right
this this that there Lan McKai is a
direct descendant of Joseph Smith and
he's a good friend he's been on my
program a couple times to talk about the
Joseph Smith photo and I know that this
really probably hurts that they had to
do this sure there let me add one more
thing and I knew this was in there I
don't know why it's listed on above on
this sorry what you're saying this is a
really important part too the
manuscripts of the Joseph Smith
translation of the Bible yeah are also
part of that see that's just so that
that's you know and a lot of members of
the latter of the Church of Jesus Christ
of latterday saints don't understand
what this really is this is this
manuscript we've always had in our
scriptures in the King James version of
the Bible these little blurps right that
you know you look in the foot footnotes
and there's a a word and most of it's
completely insignificant some of it's
something and then you have the Joseph
Smith translation which we did have
parts of leaving navu that came
West um and most people think that's the
Joseph Smith translation it's like it's
it's nothing it's a tiny tiny little
part even the study Aid that we have for
the scriptures is a is a tiny little
part of the entire
manuscript uh which uh which has now
been it looks to me like it's all of the
manuscripts okay uh that were put
together with that and by the way
there's a price on this which this is
pretty rare for for the LDS church to
put this out here but uh the price was
192.5 Million for uh for everything okay
so this this is an important not only is
this an important historic event within
the context of the restoration this is
an important historic event period
because this is a massive amount of
historic properties being sold for
record prices just so you know that
manuscript book of Morman manuscript was
the most was the most expensive document
ever sold that broke all the records and
I imagine there are some records that
are going to be broken in this Trans in
these historic transactions as well so
just even a say that say that again I
wasn't I wasn't sure what you said there
what I was saying is that that when they
they the printer's manuscript of the
Book of Mormon they paid $35
million in the in the historic world
like in the secular world that was the
most expensive document ever sold for
its time so are for just in the context
of collectors in historical items that
kind of set the bar of like a very
important document so and the same thing
with these these historic sites look
these are Priceless many ways many of
the all these artifacts are Priceless in
some ways that manuscript's Priceless
the Cartland Temple's Priceless but here
we now have actually put a monetary
value on these Priceless objects it
would be like the Vatican selling a
bunch of their stuff it would be just
stupendous right so this is just a major
news story in and of itself and and so I
think that you know it is important that
you know the people of the Community of
Christ I just want to say to you I know
you're devastated today and you feel
really bad about what happened I'm
hearing my phones exploding from
Community of Christ people who are sad
and and feel very hurt by this because
they took great pride in in in
maintaining and preserving the historic
sites of the restoration and thank
goodness they did yes and that's why I
feel we need to honor them at this time
because I know that on one hand sure you
got a lot of this money but now a lot of
your sacred spaces in sits are no longer
in your hands and that has to be hard
but this is the thing now now just to
give you a context of the inspired so so
we have the Joseph Smith translations is
what you guys call they call it the
inspired version okay that's their
that's their uh Norman clature and and
what happened was is that for a very
long time there was mistrust of that
translation by the Utah Saints and it
wasn't until the 1970s there was a
scholar and and of course this is all
last minute I look it up but there was a
scholar a Mormon scholar who started
engaging the manuscript that the Joseph
The Inspired version and actually wrote
a paper saying you know what this is a
reliable that what they've put out is a
reliable translation you should not look
at it like it's some kind of view it
with suspicion that it's been corrupted
or that they manipulated this that they
did a good job maintaining that
translation and so I know a lot of
latterday matter of fact I know I have a
latterday St publisher that recently
came out with um their new testament um
with the Joseph Smith translation and
this is a Utah based uh group Rob
meldrum's group you know and um and so
that Hawking yeah Ed Hawking yeah who
I've had on and so so the Joseph Smith
translation or inspired version you know
depending is now making itself into the
pages of mainstream latterday Saints
works and so now you have this wonderful
thing this wonderful group this
wonderful people this wonderful
organization who love Joseph Smith who
love the restoration who who love these
historic sites I know this is a day that
you will go down in your history as a
day that you feel bad about but this
will also be the opportunity for your
church to be able to kind of stabilize
itself and be an important voice of the
restoration going forward into the 21st
century yeah absolutely and now we have
more added to our solar
scura one sense yeah that that's
becoming de facto canonized by many
Latter-Day Saints that they're they're
integrating the Joseph Smith and so we
have to honor the work of the Community
of Christ and again I I think this is so
important because you're a mainstream
LDS church you're all you a lot of you
are just live within the Mormon Corridor
but there's a lot of Mormonism out there
throughout World you've never heard of
but I get to talk to all of them and
that's really I think one of the key
things is that John
Heek who who's the one who broke the
story I want to give credit to John he
came on my platform but he's the one
that broke the story on Mormon book
reviews and he felt that he could come
to this my platform to talk about this
story and that's because I've made a
point to go and be respectful and
honoring of all the different voices of
the restoration and not dismiss them
I've had people why do you talk to those
little groups I'm like man because
there's just awesome people and they
have their own history and they have
their own relics and they have their own
stories that need to be told too to
fully totally understand the story of
the restoration the story of Joseph
Smith and his church as well in Utah I
mean in in in Independence Missouri
right I mean Joseph Smith Church of
course is claimed in Utah too but of
course the family claims it in in
Missouri so this also goes to show
actually in one sense a positive step
because for decades um the the the the
they wouldn't talk to each other the
prophets wouldn't talk to each other
from the different churches they hardly
acknowledge each other there was always
this tension and this rivalry between
these two groups and in one sense you
could see how now they over the course
of the last few decades they've built a
trust with each other they've been
talking with each other and now now we
can actually see in one sense a positive
thing where these two the two largest
branches of the restoration were in
conversation with each other they
trusted each other they they negotiated
in good faith and they were able to get
this done so in one sense it's also a
story I think of reconciliation and
friendship and hopefully this will draw
cause there to be closer relations
between the Community of Christ and the
Church of Jesus Christ of flatter Day
Saints well looking at the press release
the LDS press release it looked like
that was the tone that they had put out
yeah so I think that was really
important so I have no idea because just
so you know when we taped that we didn't
have a lot of this information we just
knew we had a story and so we we and I I
almost think it looks like to me it's
simultaneously almost simultaneously if
not I may have beat him by a little bit
um on on Breaking the story and I have a
feeling that maybe the reason why they
released it when they did was because
the cat was out of the bag and they
wanted to get ahead of this story I
don't know maybe they did plan on
releasing it today either way it was
broken almost simultaneously on NBR and
in the church Newsroom so this is an
important place you know I hope people
would check out my channel Mormon book
reviews on YouTube um we've broken many
many many stories here on NBR and it's
become a trusted source for people um
and so that's I've got it here and uh
you know we've got the uh the video that
you put up right here and so there she
is go any further than that but uh yeah
exciting stuff so people ought to go
over and take a look at that and I'll go
ahead and put a link in the description
box for that so that uh people can go
over there and see the story that you
that you did so the very first time that
this story was described and identified
was here on Mormon book reviews and I
want to thank John Heek for coming to to
MBR and offering the story to me first
and I'm honored and privileged to be
friends with that man he is not a man
without controversy but I'm a man
without controversy that has controversy
too including being censored by AI by by
uh Google and YouTube which you have to
talk about sometime as well but again
that's the key thing is we want to be
respectful of people and when you're
respectful to other people and you're
kind and you're willing to listen you
don't try to get yourself ready battle
ready well they're from that group I
can't talk to them once you realize that
you can talk to these people then these
opportunities present themselves that
that um really in one sense it it's the
importance of having conversations The
Community of Christ and the Church of
Jesus Christ latterday Saints had
important conversations that were
probably really delicate and they had to
negotiate a lot of things but it was
done in good faith and Good Will and if
anything that's maybe the most positive
thing we can take out of that story yeah
awesome well Stephen thanks so much
really appre appreciate you coming on
and giving us the perspective that you
have because you've got uh so many of
those contacts with the Community of
Christ I do know that a lot of
Latter-day Saints are going to be pretty
happy right now but uh uh you know we
move forward and and uh you like I said
I'm grateful that this this is these
these historic properties have been well
taken care of and uh there's so much
Rich Heritage and story there to these
things so it is and you know and that's
that's why I really emphasize about
honoring the Community of Christ because
for years people Latter-Day Saints have
come from Utah and they would go into
the kland temple and they'll be like
we're going to get this one day we're
going to get this one day and that
really hurt the feelings I mean trust me
I've heard this many times Community of
Christ people in their historic sites
and that really hurt them a lot so while
you're happy as latterday Saints
remember these are your
cousins and be respectful of them and
don't spite the football too hard uh
honor them and acknowledge the the the
custodial role they played for the
restoration and and also take that into
account too because I think it's really
important that um you be kind to people
when they're when they feel
hurt good message appreciate it Stephen
all right man it's a I'm glad I was able
to come on your show man it's always a
blast dude we'll talk to you soon okay
[Music]
later
