news in latterday Saint circles where the church has purchased the Kirtland Temple and a number number of other
properties in Nauvoo and artifacts Rod welcome to the program well thank you for having me GRE appreciate that very
much we're we're excited this is this is a big day huge it's huge huge news you
know I feel like this is a it's like another little step moving through the last days yeah I think I think than I
don't know if this can be I don't know is this one of those signs I mean I don't know if there's sign this thing would something because
it's it's it's obviously a huge reaction with everyone but Rod you've got a lot of experience in going to Kirtland going
to navoo so I wanted to get a little bit of background from you on these properties uh the background on on on uh
the history of the Kirtland Temple Etc let's start with the Kirtland Temple tell me about why this is important and
a little bit of the background of of the Kirtland Temple you bet well just a little bit of background so so I've had
the opportunity that's probably for 15 years now to uh to take tours back three
or four times a year and and go to these sites so over the course of time I've gotten to know you know a lot of the
people who are involved with uh with the preservation and and doing the tours and those kinds of things there um and both
kurtland and navu the Kirtland Temple is really a fascinating place I I gota just
one quick thing so I had a uh there's a there's a guy who's known as Mr Kirtland you ever heard of him I've heard Mr
Kirtland I don't know his name name's Carl Anderson Carl Rick Anderson and the first time I went there
well the first time I went there I was with my family and we were there on a just a a church history vacation kind of
thing that we were doing and so you know you get something out of that but then but when I wanted to start learning more
about Joseph Smith and what he knew about the book of and geography and things you know curland was a big
area and and uh so I uh I decided to to uh take you know put a couple hundred
dollars in my pocket I think it's about all I had at the time and uh got to my my little red uh Odyssey Minivan um and
uh and headed out there and uh I I got a hold of the uh the Kirtland Temple uh Visitor Center I said so is there any
place I could park so I could just sleep in my van because I'm going to be coming in at like one or two o'clock in the morning he said well there's this guy
out there out here and his name is Carl Anderson and why don't you just uh give
him a call so I gave him a call he was very very kind and said hey you know if you want to uh you can you can just pull
your van in midnight or whatever whenever you come in and just sleep in my driveway and he says uh I I'll see
you in the morning okay so I I wake up in the morning and you know knocking on my window of my
van and and it's Carl Anderson he invites me in for that this huge spread breakfast I mean and then we spent the
whole he spent the whole day with me and I was just amazed at that at the kind of kindness that that was but he he gave me
kind of a my really my first introduction to how how special Kirtland
is in general and the Kirtland Temple is specifically and uh and it's really a a
fascinating thing so a little little history I mean obviously we know about you know the uh you know the Jose Smith
how he uh was led by the Lord to go out in the middle of the wintertime had to
get a sled uh a sleigh with his horses and so forth and go out there and he met
with this and and he came out there to Kirtland and the as The Story Goes he uh
met with this guy by new K Whitney and they came to this he had n k Whitney was a quite a quite a prosperous uh Merchant
out there he had a store out there and uh and so he he he came in to town in a
in a sigh in the middle of the winter there and um literally walked into the door and opened the door and he says he
says n k Whitney Thou Art the man when he says um like uh I'm sorry
but I don't know who you are and he says I'm Joseph Smith the prophet you prayed me here now what do you
want that's kind of how Kirtland got started I mean that's really kind of the started
and then that blast him into a huge friendship that they had for many many years um and and then the Kirtland area
you know was a was was a kind of a place because the the pyra area had gotten so
kind of hostile and and everything that they that that that the Lord uh told Joseph to go out there and and uh so
they started to get the Gathering of the Saints was really their the first first thing the curtland Temple is interesting
because that's only one of two temples in this dispensation that were actually
um built you know under the tutelage of the Prophet Joseph Smith and he said
that he received the uh the the plans if you will the blueprints and what the
temple should look like and the symbolism that should be applied to these temples he said he got that from
Revelation from from Visions so I think that's a pretty significant thing and of
course we know that the uh that you know the temple was a huge sacrifice I mean there people were pouring in they were
poor the most most of them were coming with hardly anything but the clothes on their back and yet uh and and and when
you kind of think about it um that Temple is was one of the
largest edifices in the United States you know I mean other than maybe New
York or Boston or that kind of thing or maybe Chicago but that Temple was one of
the biggest uh you know edifice is basically in the in the US I mean it was that it's a
pretty Bodacious project really when you think about it especially for a bunch of poor dirt farmers and and people coming
in immigrants and things so um you know the the the the amount of sacrifice that
required to do that was just astounding you know the men the men would give give uh you know a tithe of
their time from their farming and other and building homes and that kind of thing the women um would do all kinds of
things to try to help with h with providing clothing and and and uh materials um my understanding is is that
uh some of the women actually took some of their fine porcelain or China and broke it up and smashed it into into a
into a fine kind of a powdery substance which was later put on the outside walls
to make the walls look more shimmery more kind of um you know shiny um for
for the temple and of course the day of the the the dedication was just was a
huge day for the church there was actually I think two days worth of uh of of Ceremonies and and meetings and they
went on for for hours and longer winded than you and I are even
Greg there are reports of uh some some of the sermons were going for four or five hours I mean that's you know that's
that's pretty pretty crazy when it comes down to it so anyway and there were some
amazing things that happened there in the kland area I me probably be I don't know if you want to go into a little bit
of Joseph's life there at kland because he ended up living in several different places sure and had some pretty
traumatic things happen to he and and and Emma while they were there so when they when they first got there they met
with of course with n k Whitney Whitney and then um and they became instant
friends um and then they they lived for a little bit of time time out at the Isaac merley Farm which is actually
about mile and a half or two miles uh down the road from where the current Church uh historical um Visitor Center
is and they lived there for a little bit Emma gave birth to twins and unfortunately um and just
devastatingly uh both those twins died within hours of their birth um there was
another guy by the name of John um John I think it was Lydia Murdoch that uh
that that that she also was pregnant with twins and gave birth and then she she died from childbirth and so they uh
so they ended up giving those twins John John said I can't take I can't care for these twins and Emma had just given
birth to twinss and so uh so she basically was able to uh you know she
and and Joseph were were obviously devastated from the loss of these two babies but then they were also blessed
with two kind of Replacements if you will in fact they they they they called
them they they they gave them names and and Murdoch was their middle name um and
then uh and then we know that that after the Isaac moley Farm they moved out to the John Johnson Farm now John Johnson
was a pretty wealthy guy that um he had a big beautiful Farm it's still there
today you can actually go out and see it the church owns that farm and and they have restored the house and so forth and
made it really really nice they have a nice uh uh they missionaries usually station there you can go and and uh
learn more about it but there was some very significant things in fact kland
the Kirtland period as I understand it is is was one of the
most it had the the the most visitations of God the Father and Jesus Christ of
any other place on the earth there were there were dozens and dozens of of of uh
visitations and and and Apparition or not apparitions but you know where they where where Joseph was receiving
revelation after Revelation there were more Revelations actually um that were that were um recovered in that were done
in or received I should say in uh in kland than any other place so so Rod
you're saying that there were other visitations by the father yeah yeah in fact uh there's there's a
there's a book here this is actually by car Rex so Shameless plug for his book
here so this is let's see there it is the savior in Kirtland this is actually an autographed copy of that but uh but
he he gives the accounts of the savior in in in Kirtland but also even the
father a couple you know was there a couple times but mostly was the Savior but uh but there were uh other instances
as well so it's a it's a very special sacred place from a church history
standpoint and then we have uh and I I just I'm just thrilled about this this
this new announcement although I will have to say I'm a little bit
um I know there's some very much Melancholy I you know thoughts going on
with the uh with the Community of Christ um I
have some dear friends there I mean over the years we've we've become you know quite quite uh you know well acquainted
with with each other with many of the different people there um specifically you know some of the the uh the people
that like L Lo McKai Lan McKai um he's with Community of Christ
he's their their historical sites director and uh so many times I had an
opportunity to talk to him or or you know or to uh go to these to these sites
that were owned and operated by The Community of Christ and so it's it's kind of
a a Bittersweet thing for them I know that on the one hand in fact um Lan
McKai once once told me we were having a conversation he said you know he says we we kind of know you know here the with
the Community of Christ because uh you know we just don't have the financial resources that he calls us or they they
call us the Salt Lake Church right and anyway he said we just don't have the resources of the Salt Lake Church and he
says you know we've we've we've had to sell a few things off and so forth he says but um but this is really special
to us and he kind of he kind of intimated to me that uh that he says that when when the day comes he says he
told me he said r when the day comes he says more than likely um if
anybody's going to buy the the Kirtland Temple it's going to be the Salt Lake Church he says but just know that the
day that we sell the the uh the the Kirtland Temple to the Salt Lake
Church will pretty much Mark the kind of the uh the uh the end of our of our what
we're what we're doing because it's just well this has got to be devastating for them I mean it's it's is their I mean I
know they've got their new Temple but um you know historically this is this is this was their this was the gem right
yeah yeah and so I mean he he released a video I think yesterday I watched it and
you can I mean you can just see the the pain in his in his in his heart and his face I mean he but but he says you know
I'm like I'm J I'm like Joseph Smith II I'm quite a PR pragmatic guy he says I understand it's probably best for the
temple because we just don't have the resources and and one of the big concerns that I've had for several years
and that he that he shares I know and that is that the construction of the temple was
interesting um because of their their poverty they didn't really have um you
know wood and think obviously there's no steel to be able to do the superstructure of the building so it was
built in what's called a rubble rubblestone construction method which is essentially just taking big chunks of of
of rocks which they got out of a Cory I've actually been to the Quarry and you can actually still to this day you can
see the drill marks where they were where they were drilling down and then breaking out chunks of rock and then
hauling them with wagons over to where the uh the temple site was and essentially they just put big rocks in
there um and then with mortar so it's just mortar and rocks just stacked up and the base of the walls are like gosh
like three or four feet thick at the base and they kind of taper up as they go up um and and and so I mean it makes
it uh you know it's it's it's fairly strong but in an earthquake
baby they they had just a a a small like a three a thre level earthquake that was
like a 100 miles away probably about seven or eight years ago and it put all kinds of cracks in the the yeah well
that Mort is not going to hold together no it's not and so I I've been um you
know I I talked to uh you know different people at the Community of Christ before and said so um what happens I mean you
know is there any plan to somehow come in there and put some superstructure in
and they just you know we don't have the budget for that and uh but but I have to say though that our church has gotten
really good at that you know between between the the proo uh Tabernacle
retrofit to a temple um the Salt Lake Temple retrofit for for seismic
engineering and so forth and and you know and the Logan Temple they had they put a bunch of Steel in that years and
years ago uh I know about that one mostly because they took some of the reubel from the temple and actually put
it back behind our our home there in Logan so as as River the Logan River ran
behind our house and so we would so they riff wraft the uh the banks of the river with some of the temple debris so that
was always kind of fun going through all that stuff and seeing some of the original pain and stuff there were in there anyway so so so uh so the ctland
temple though um you know it's I have to give it to them because they they they
gave their all um The Community of Christ has to to preserve and keep that Temple up but you
know maintenance alone would it really needs about three or four full-time
people working on it and they they they had they had one volunteer guy that was
there uh I'm trying to remember his name it's it's Tom um oh gosh what's his last name I'm
gonna have it right here Tom Kimble um he was actually a member of our church
kind of an interesting guy though because a couple times we we'd go to uh to the temple with our with our tour
group and he'd be there with a cup of coffee going down you know so kind of
had longer hair and so forth and he was just the nicest guy and he would just take you through the temple and and show
you everything and very very knowledgeable but then when he wasn't when he wasn't doing tours he was
actually fixing things and and and doing maintenance on the temple and and and he would work you know 10 12 hours a day
typically on the temple um he loved that Temple so much and unfortunately he passed away just a few years ago and uh
we missed Tom but they've been uh they've been great to to work with though the uh the commun of Christ has
been you know they're very gracious I mean here we come with a bunch of Mormons you know from from the Salt Lake Church you know and uh and they don't
try to proze or whatever but uh I will have to say in all honesty as as much as
I uh I enjoy the friendship with the Community of Christ uh members and and
their leadership and so forth that I've had a chance to get to R shoulders with um there was there was I I would point
this out to some extent to my tour groups we'd go and we'd go to the temple and I hope that this doesn't ruin
anything for anybody bu but but one of my favorite things about the visitor center that the Community of Christ put
together there is they have a film and and you come into this Auditorium and it's dark and it has you
know know draperies around and so forth and and you watch this film and at the very end of it it starts playing um a
spirit of God like a fire is burning right that has a kind of a choir singing in the film and then and then and you
don't know this when you first go in but all of a sudden the draperies just open up and you're sitting literally just with a
with a perfect framed view of the temple right there as as the curtains open up
and your eyes kind of adjust to the you know to the light and everything and it's quite a moving experience you know
to to to be able to do that I don't know if they're gonna if the church is going to maintain that think I would imagine they probably would but the film itself
was uh less than less less inspirational than the films that you see when you go
to to the actual Kirtland Visitor Center um from of our of our church and um you
know when when you they have a film there that talks about uh the Whitney family and and uh you know some of the
sacrifices and and so forth and it's just a phenomenal film like I think it's the only place in the world that you can
actually see that particular film but it's uh but it just it it depicts the uh
the level of sacrifice that was going on for that Temple and it brings me to
tears almost every time that I I see that you know especially when you when you see that they were only there for
just a few years and then the Lord called them to move on and there was a lot of people were like whoa hold on
wait a minute yeah said that this is where this is where we're going to gather We Came Here We Built Homes we we
we logged we yeah are you kidding me exactly and then they had the Kirtland
safety Society debacle you know it was know the bank failing and all this kind of stuff and and it really caused a lot
of people to look look and say okay you know this this Prophet is you know he's
nuts he's he's out of his mind there was a real uh um I was going to say siphoning it's not siphoning but there
there was a real uh um you know separation there shifting of that time I
think that happened and um you know I guess that has to happen over and over again you have to get I mean you imagine
a a coming out of the American Revolution at the time that they were I mean they're not that far removed from
it and a brand new country uh still experiencing how uh the Precedence of
the Constitution and the laws and federalism and all this stuff how it's all going to work and um and and then to
have a brand new religion you know Sprout out from here and in addition to
everything else and the uncertainty probably excitement also but the uncertainty of where is this going what
are we doing um who is this Joseph Smith guy um and then to have faith trials
like that yeah that are that are going to come up and for those that did stick it
out um it's pretty remarkable really you know that you had people that had that
much Faith at that time yeah what is really surprising is I think there was probably more people who apostatized and
left Joseph Smith in the Nauvoo period which was actually much kind of nicer you know easier period if you will um
than the than the Kirtland period but those those people the early Saints there you know that that that that came
in um were were you know like syney rigin's um
his his his uh group basically his his I don't want to say audience what is it
congregation congregation that's it yeah so so uh his congregation I mean they
they were they were searching for uh you know they knew that there was you know that there was a that there was
had been a apostasy and they were they were talking about that and they were kind of looking forward to someday when
that would be restored yeah but yeah so I I got to tell you one one other little
little quick uh quick thing so I this is full disclosure okay
so I haven't mentioned this anywhere else for but uh exclusive all right we
got an exclusive exclusive deal from Rod M so oh was it gosh probably about four
four or five years ago I think it was um we were at our big Expo and uh and and
just just like you know a few hours or so before um I had a friend of mine who
has a ward member who is a high up in the church in the administrative arm of
the church and and he was and he'd been I don't know if he was doing his uh you
know his uh his ministering or whatever with him but uh but he mentioned that he
had just signed a check for $30 million to The Community of Christ and my friend
told me this and I thought what what other thing could The Community of
Christ possibly have that would be worth $30 million besides the the the temple so I I kind of went out on a limb I was
up there in front of the the audience there you know probably you know you know thousand people sitting there and
and I said uh so I just got wind that there's that there's been a check cut for the Community of Christ and and it's
got to be the the we must have just purchased the Kirtland Temple and it was like this this hush like Falls over the
audience and then and uh anyway it turns out I was I was wrong I
shouldn't have speculated so here's my repentance right now um for that because
uh because it actually was the the printer's manuscript that the church had purchased from The Community of Christ
and it really help help them to to to you know they had they had a bunch of issues going on they have some pensions
that are not funded um from some of the leadership and things and they talk about the Community of Christ yeah
Community of Christ did so they really needed that infusion and and I'm sure that they need the infusion now as well
but hopefully it'll help them you know stay on a particular course they they uh they want to focus more on some other
other things besides having these properties that are that literally are are kind of a a drain you know
financially on on them so I think it's going to be a blessing for them it'll be a huge blessing for all of us because um
because these sits are going to be preserved but one thing when the church gets involved with something it's they they do it right so it's a it's really a
blessing for that and also that and you know in the case of like navoo or or
even the kland temple if you go there as a family you have like six or seven people in your family let's say you know
it's like $6 a piece it's not I mean they're not gouging anybody that's really pretty cheap but it's still you
know it's 50 bucks to go see the Kirtland Temple so some people on a vacation they're tight and they just hey
you know what uh you know we can go to The Visitor Center we can walk around it but it's six bucks per person to get in
and the same thing with the um with the navu area they have a a wonderful tour there that covers you know from the the
stable that joose Smith kept his horse Joe Duncan in you know to uh to uh you
know the mansion house to um you know the the endowment house the Red Brick
Store Joseph and Emma's first log home and then the the frame home that they did after that um all of that was you
couldn't go in unless you were on a tour with the Community of Christ and they only did a couple of Tours a day so it
really was quite restrictive and it'll be nice to all that's going to be as I understand it
be missionaries there and it's GNA be awesome I just want to say also Rob
before we move on from ctland you know it's it really did set the precedent the Lord really set the precedent there for
how important the temple was I mean it was going to require all that sacrifice and it did need to be what it needed to
be you know it it it needed to be I'm not going to say grandiose but you know the specifications were given to him the
sacrifice had to be made and of course look what they were were rewarded with you know it's there that they don't
begin the endowment ceremonies there or the ceilings but but you do have the keys that are given for all of that
right so you've got the Savior shows up you got Elias with the go the dispensation of the Gospel of Abraham
you've got Elijah and Moses all showing up here at the Kirland Temple to hand over the keys to Joseph and and that
really starts launching everything priesthood wise uh within the church at that time yeah the the dedicatory prayer
uh or not not just the prayer but and that's actually was was also received by Revelation as in the Doctrine and
Covenants the dedicatory prayer of the curland temple but but um but during the dedication there were there were um
magnificent things that happened um in fact one of the guys that I'm just gonna
mention um is John Tanner um a lot of people don't know who John Tanner is if you if you get a
chance to go onto like the church's website and just look up the uh the John Tanner story it is just it is another
one of these just um it's heart-wrenching and Faith promoting both at the same time because this guy was
was actually very very wealthy I mean he owned numerous homes Farms you know he owned
an island he had Sawmills he had businesses um he was doing extremely
well and then and then he um he he ended up having a some kind of a canker on his
leg that was that got worse and worse and they couldn't they couldn't get it under control the doctors were saying
hey you know what um there's nothing we can do we got to amputate your leg or or you are going to die and uh and so and
he said well my this is in the film so I'm I'm not sure if it's historically accurate or
not but but he says well my my my leg came came into this existence with me
and together we shall part it you know and so uh so he was determined not to have his leg removed and about that time
missionaries were going through the area and they and they they uh they found John Tanner and that night he um they
they they talked to him he felt the spirit so deep and uh and then they said you know John
Tanner do you have faith to be healed and he's like
um yeah I believe I believe Christ healed people in his lifetime he says so so so if we are true messengers of the
Gospel of Jesus Christ do you have faith that you can be healed tonight and he's
like um he looks at his wife and it's like uh yeah and so they gave gave him a
blessing and his leg was was instantly healed and that very night he uh he they
they walked almost I think it was almost a mile and a half to get down to the river where he could be baptized that night he and his wife and then and he a
story completely committed to the gospel and uh he's the one that actually is is
is credited with saving the Kirtland Temple because the Brethren they were so poort that even though most of their
their stuff was being you know donated their labor and things they still had to buy some supplies like mortar and that
kind of thing and they had the and they' taken out uh some loans and those loans had come due by this point in time and
then John Tanner and his wife were were praying one night and said hey um the
the Lord says you need to go to Kirtland you're needed there and and I love that the they know
this is a great example you know when when when Nei says you know go and do he got the Revelation and they left that
night his wife to go to uh to to get on their on their wagon and and ride and and uh
go to go to Kirtland and he showed up there literally the day before the loan was due and and he gave Joseph Smith and
Joseph Smith had told the Brethren you know this is all in the Lord's hands that you know there's nothing that we can do we have no way to pay back the
loan and um and that's when John Tanner showed up and they said well what do you need he said well we need I can't
remember it was like $122,000 which is equivalent of about probably about $200,000 today in today's money two or
$300,000 and uh and so um John Tanner just wrote him a note and said here we
got we got it we got it covered then then he proceeded to pay for missionaries and proceeded for paying for this and for that and the other
thing and he helped to short up the currentless security Society the the anti- banking notes and so forth that
they did and he basically just did all this that I know this is a long story but so it's a really cool one it's
really moving because by the time they left Kirtland he'd given
everything and he was had he had one broken down old horse and an Old Wagon
and and his family was destitute didn't even have money for food they they uh they have one scene where they they go
up to this this old this guy's cabin and they knock on the door and he says please can we just have some food for my
family we're starving and uh and he asks the the the little boy there that was standing at his side and he said what's
your name little boy and he says well my name it's Joseph Smith Tanner and the guy slams the door in his
face and said I won't I won't give any any food to the likes of you guys and he
had one of his daughters his little daughter died along the way and it buried her on the side of the on the side of the trail but uh he and then and
then later on he was then um still hadn't really been able to recover anything um from all that and he was
called to be a missionary so he was one of the first missionaries to go and preach the gospel uh left his wife and
family again destitute and he came back later on uh from his mission and uh he he approached
Joseph Smith and he says you know so I have this note that you gave me you know
that that for paying off the temple you you you gave me a note in return and Joseph Smith looked at the
note for like $112,000 and uh he said brother Tanner Call Him Father Tanner
actually says father Tanner uh what would you like me to do with this note and father Tanner basically just took
the note and tore it up into pieces and threw it on the ground and said you know that that that U you're bringing the
gospel into my life has been the greatest thing ever and uh and he threw it and he threw it away
he uh he he never was repaid for that he he gave up uh all of his riches and everything that he had been given in in
his early life for for the go gopel really he did live the law of
consecration yeah yeah he he gave he he literally kind of gave it all he ended up coming out to Utah uh Joseph Smith
gave him another little another little gift though when he tore it up he said father
Tanner he says because of your sacrifices he says your family will never want for
bread and that's the Tanner family and if you go if you take a look at the Tanner family they they have been some
of the most U you know wealthy members of the church um and and I mean they've
been presidents of BYU Hawaii and and have been in in positions you know all
around the world you know you know OC Tanner you know and so forth the jewelry and all that kind of stuff they've all
they've all done very very well financially which is a I think is a direct um you know not necessarily
result but it was you know as a prophecy was given by the Prophet Joseph Smith that that would happen and it's been fulfilled yeah well I think it is
somewhat of result though I mean even it's almost you could say it's almost even a natural consequence I think that
that if someone gives that much and you have that Legacy in your family there there's something that is
invaluable I think you know that you live with that and and it's like my this was my father this was my grandfather
this was my great-grandfather you know and yeah that's that is invaluable I think no no question on that yeah let's
uh do you have any more on on K we move to navo just say John Tanner um it was
actually it was one of his kids that that saw uh pillars of fire and Angels
um on the on the temple the day of its dedication okay and this is where this is the first time fact I hope this is a
tradition that the church is going to continue on that is whenever you go to the the the Kirtland Temple with the
Community of Christ they come up and they they have a a piano there and they'll have somebody you know either
from the group or they'll bring somebody in and they'll play the piano and they always sing this one particular song
can you guess what it is was it it was it's not the spirit of God yeah it's the spirit of God yes good
good guest Greg you got it but yeah they they always sing uh a spirit of God like
a fire is burning and at the time they had they the way that they that the peers and everything were arranged they
all kind of faced kind of funny the way that they built this was really ingenious it was I think unique in that
day and it's really unique even to this day because the peers were built so you can actually face either
direction and they had the pulpits on both sides right they had the the ironic priesthood on one side the mesic prood
on the other side and you can actually so what it was is they had it had like a
box of where the Pew was it just had a bench in the bottom of the Pew and you could move the bench to one side or the
other so he could face either direction and just you know step over the bench and sit down the other direction look
the other direction um and they had they had these curtains that would come down with on rollers and it was all they had
this this this pulley system and it was really pretty pretty ingenious actually for the day and and that's that's where
many of these uh amazing Visions actually happened was in there so it's
it's pretty cool to be able to go back and actually see the ropes and pulleys and things that you know the the U the
the the big shrouds have been you know they they disintegrated long ago and
it's been used for a few other purposes before the Community of Christ really has it was kind of a community center
for a while there isn't upstairs where Joseph Smith had his office but the but
the the floor is so thin that they won't allow any groups more than about 15 or
20 people up in the top of it so usually our groups are 50 or more and so you know we can't go up there but it's
really uh but they they had you know natural lighting um there was uh know
those huge windows or again another thing that's not really common for the day um
and it was anyway it was it was it was quite an edifice and I'm I'm really grateful that the church has finally
been able to get a hold of it I hope that they will move their seismic teams in there and get this thing stabilized
as soon as possible because that's gonna be H with all the things that that that sound like they're coming up shortly
it's you know it's going to need to have that earthquake uh proofing that the church is so good at yeah more more
engineering Ingenuity that exactly has to be brought in there so yeah so there's one other guy that I just want
to shout out to this Joe Jackson he's kind of like the uh so we have I mentioned about Carl Carl Anderson here
the savior of Kirland the savior in Kirtland he also did this one which is called Joseph Smith Kirtland right here
and I got this autographed copy here that I I I treasure these okay um but
there's Joe Jackson he's kind of a newer he's a younger version of of uh Carl
Anderson um he he was born and raised there in the C area he's quite a
historian um really knowledgeable about this stuff so if you ever get a chance to go back there to Kirtland and look up
look up Joe Jackson he's uh he's he's I think he'll be um more accessible now
because he'll be able to actually you know hopefully maybe even do tours and
so there in the temple although they're probably gonna have the missionaries in fact um I have some personal friends of
mine uh Barbie and Ken actually K Ken and Barbara Hansen who are actually
missionaries out there they just texted me this morning and said they just got their new um script that they can use
for the uh for for doing Temple stuff I said can you share it with me he said no
I can't share that with you you have to come to Kirtland to hear that script okay anyway so that's that's
from the church history to pray I'm sure but anyway cool so yeah so the so the temple itself was actually like I
mentioned it was seen and vision but one of the things that's also fascinating well I don't probably have
time to get into this but the Spire of it is is unique because we know in
Hebrew symbolism that a square is representation of the earth a circle is representation of God basically
symbolically it's a no end no beginning that kind of thing yeah for Eternal round yeah the Eternal round um but the
but the steeple of the temple is interesting because it has a base that is a square and but then it goes up and
then on the top of it there was a there was a a ball and of course they had the angel Moroni kind of kind of laying out
like Superman style over there with his horn sticking out he he wasn't the upright one that we
see today on the temples where he's kind of standing upright holding the the horn up uh he was actually fullon Superman
going this way yeah um with it with the with the the chaar basically going out
in the front um but in between those two between the circle or heav heaven or God
and the Earth down here the square there's an octagon
structure which a lot of people don't realize that that octagon structure is the Seal of
mezic um it's it's actually I'm sure you've heard of that you know about that but that there was there's been ancient
um uh altars that have been found with with the mosaics on them that that shows
mesic and it has on the altar this seal which is essentially if you take a a
square about like that in fact if you've ever been to the Salt L Temple before
they just did all the remodeling and so forth you got up to the front doors are glass doors and they when you open up they they they go open right and on
those there's this little emblem it's a square there's a piece of glass and then
there's another piece of glass that's square but it's rotated about 45 degrees so it creates kind of an eight-pointed
star and of course if if you outline all the you connect all the tips of that it creates an octagon right the seal of
mzc was actually was you know well MDC we call the mesic priesthood but
originally it was called the priesthood after the holy order of the Son of God right they didn't want to overdo the the
use of the name of God so they call it after mzc who was the king of Salem and basically he sought for the
same blessings as as Enoch did and actually received them according to J Smith anyway and and long story short
basically is that uh this seal of mdic is really the Seal of Christ and so
Christ is the intercessor Between Heaven and Earth and it's actually depicted
symbolically right in the steeple of the temple H pretty cool and and and and the
navu temple is the same way it has it has a base it's a rectangle it has to have four corners and that goes up to an
octagon structure and it goes up to the top which is kind of a Cupa then it has three three balls on it the top ball is
gold and the two bottom ones are both kind of darker color representing the three degrees of the celestial I love
the symbolism of things like that I think it's so important I wish we did that even more and not less on those
things got that seal on the San Diego Temple too it's all over the place yeah 10,000 times on the San in fact if you
look straight down in the San Diego Temple from a drone which by the way I haven't done that I do have I have a lot
of drone stuff but I never did that so so it it actually formed the Seal of
mezic itself yeah the temple itself does we had a uh a friend of mine was
visiting in the area when they were building the San Diego Temple this was interesting and and
uh the construction is very much that way right it's it's eight points yeah
and in fact the church had the the security company that was watching over
the temple while they were building the the structure one of the guys that was there was a mus
and he was talking to my friend who was just kind of there visiting and he let him walk around with him a little bit and uh and and he says you know one of
the thing that's really cool about this as a Muslim is that we use the eight point star all the time we we that that
figure of four and four the eight is really important to us and it's everywhere in this Temple he like the
whole conru you know this is before it's even done it's just the construction of this is built in these in this four and
four yeah one of the stories goes about that is that the uh that the architect
that um that that did the initial designs of the San Diego Temple apparently was not of our faith and uh
and and and I'm just I'm just kind of really this Motif is just really um
forceful I just I just know I don't know why it is I'm so drawn to this particular Motif with the the eight
pointed star within a circle or that kind of thing and uh and and they said what does that mean something and
somebody took it to H nibi and he said yeah that's a seal of mesic okay that makes sense because you
know it's only through Christ that we can attain you know the the Celestial
Kingdom so that's that's that's in fact that if you think about that's the whole purpose of the temple is to take us from
this Earth and transform us through Christ to
be you know Celestial beings sure yeah absolutely very cool all right navoo
let's get to navu here because I know you got some really interesting things that you've personally been involved with in in navoo yeah so that that's
probably the reason why I'm wearing my special shirt here today just so you know there just just for you Greg I don't know if you can see it here let me
let me get up a little closer you can see what that says there there can you I dig navoo can you read underneath there
right I can't read that okay well I'll read it upside down okay so it's a Joseph senior and Lucy Max
Smith residence um in 2014 so this is a little bit old shirt I
understand it's 10 years old but hey you know um so I had the opportunity it still fits here that's a good
sign well kind of it's a little tighter than it was it used to hang on me now it just
kind of like feels more like a girdle probably but anyway so so so the uh so I
had for for two different Summers I was out there uh between tours and so forth and and I had an opportunity to work
with idig navu now idig navu is the AR archaeological arm of the Community of
Christ okay Paul debar is the uh is kind of the head of that and I got to know
Paul pretty well really super nice guy I mean all these all these people are just you know they're just salt of the earth
amazing good people and uh and and they said well if you're if you're gonna if you have a couple of days says um you
can come on down here we'll put you to work I said put me to
work and and I I didn't know at the time that one of those projects that they were working on was the uh Joseph Smith
Senior uh home there in NAU so just just maybe to back up for just a second so
with this purchase of the of the Kirtland Temple and artifacts that go along with that um also I think is of
equal importance is the is the the mansion house you know and those and and the the Red Brick Store where where so
many things happen we can kind of touch on some of those things if you let me mention real quick so it's it's the curland temple we have there and then in
navoo we've got the Smith family Homestead the mansion house the NAU house and the Red Brick Store yeah the
NAU house I think was originally called that the endowment house I think it was one of the early
names for that um but almost as much important as that is there's some letters and I I I haven't yet had a
chance to figure this out Greg what letters those are but there's there's seven or eight letters that that also came with the purchase these are letters
I'm not sure if they're from Joseph to Emma or if they're just between Joseph and Emma I'm not sure which that is from
Joseph to Emma okay that's what that's what that I know that's what the the the site talks about that but uh but it' be
it'd be great to see that I'm hoping I'm hoping because I actually have have have
worked with the Community of Christ for quite a while to try to get the letter that Joseph the original letter it's in
Letter book number two so we know it it was an an extent letter but but we never
could get um confirmation as to whether or not the Community of Christ actually still had the letter or not but it was
the letter that Joseph Smith wrote um while they're on Zion's camp and they just had gone to the Zelf Mound and uh
and then he write and he sits down and he writes a letter to em and he says we're wandering Over The Plains of the Nephites picking up their skulls and
bones as proof of its Divine authenticity and you know two days
before they had just been you know at Z Mount and he was writing this when they got to the Mississippi River so um but
but yeah he he actually says we're wandering Over The Plains of the knites interesting well it might be
little well I shouldn't say that okay anyway I'm say there might be
some people who don't want that to come out I don't know yes well I'm sure that there are some but uh but my feeling is is you know what censorship is is never
a good thing you know my my feeling is is give people the information let they make up their own minds but but when
they when they see that it's it's pretty it's pretty awesome but I'm hoping that one of those letters is that actual
letter from Joseph to Emma when he said when he said while in Zion camp that they're wandering Over The Plains of the
Nephites and that makes perfect sense okay anyway so um so the um a couple
quick things so uh let me see we we the navoo properties I I can't even begin to tell
you how excited I am about that because uh there is some serious history that
goes on like that the the U the longest um ongoing women's organization
in the world was established there in the Red Brick Store up on top the Relief
Society was that that was where it was first established with Emma and so forth um we have know so the so if you go to
navoo there's basically this one area kind of on the south end of town of
nauvo that the Community of Christ prettyy much held on to all of that property so they have a they have like a stake
center there they have their Visitor Center there's the mansion house which is in on one one corner and then there's
the road that goes down through I can't it's that parle it's I can't remember what what road it is anyway but but but
anyway so you have the mansion house then just to the south of that there's
kind of a parking lot and some grassy area and some trees and then just south of that is the endowment house house and
then if you go to the west of that across the road is Joseph Joseph and Emma's first log home and also the frame
home that they that they built before they built the mansion house that they were living in there then there's this
big Park like area just to the west of that and then just to the west of that Park area excuse me that just to the
west of the of their of their home is actually the Smith family cemetery and that's part of the park that is that
continues on and then you have the red brick store just to the West of that and the Community of Christ had all
of that and they would give tours and you could go there and uh and and um yeah and they they would take you on a
tour through all those things and they had really great tour gu tour guides very informative very very a lot of information it was great to be able to
go through those but a lot of people don't get the chance because number one they have to pay extra for it and you
know we as members of the church are the uh the you know we're
Frugal is that a nice way to say it anyway yeah very frugal so we're not we go we go to
a place and our church doesn't charge anything we're sure as heck not going to spend any money to go to another church this thing anyway unfortunately that's
that's been kind of the attitude so it'll be good to be able to have people go to all of it but uh but they but they
had a fairly decent uh Visitor Center there and so I got to work on this
little piece of property the the the the Joseph Smith Senior house well for a
long time nobody knew where that really was because it had been raised at some point and nobody nearly knew where the
where where it was they knew the foundations were still there and it turns out that it was kind of underneath
part of that parking lot and that grassy area right on the corner you have the mansion house and the Joseph Smith and
Emma's uh cabin and and and other are kitty corner from each other and on the
other Corner um is the Joseph Smith senior home and they were working on
that when I was working with the idig NAU project and uh and so I got to do some kind of
fun things I actually got an opportunity to dig out the front door stoop if you
will of the J Smith senior home which doesn't sound like it' be all that much
exciting but once we got down that most it has the uh they didn't really use Concrete in that so they had that rocks
they had a couple of big Flat Rocks they had used and they had been removed and so we were digging down below that to
see if there's anything you know that would be found down below there and lo and behold we found two beautiful Native
American arrowheads below the front porch area and in fact that was just the ones that
I found but there there's been hundreds and hundreds of other arrowheads in the area so I think I'm gonna go ahead and
tell you do this [Laughter]
one okay so um so uh Paul debar who is
the who who the uh the archaeological um uh director basically
for the Community of Christ um they needed to put new electrical service into the red brick store so they needed
to lay electrical cable down between where the Smith from the corner there
where the where the where the electrical you know hookups were and then down this
sidewalk over to the Red Brick Store to put a new electrical service into the red brick store so they got one of these
big ditch witches you know these big machines that they they dig down and and it just digs a trench along a trencher
basically and they got this trencher out and they're going down along the sidewalk and all of a sudden Bones start
flying up out of the ground like whoa hold on and they looked at them and they're human bones okay so it's like oh
stop stop so they stopped everything they got they called the uh the Illinois
um archaeological you know whatever people and they came out and they they
they checked everything out they said well you know we got to get this in full archaeological digs take a lot of money
and a lot of time and they didn't have that so they did what they call a salvage dig so basically they just literally get shovels and they just dig
down and find whatever they can find and get it out of the way so the trencher can come in and and get the trenched in
put put it in and in doing so they found that there's at least at least 25
ancient skeletons that are in between the red brick store and the Smith family
Cemetery so the Red Brick Store is over here Smith cemeter familyy cemetery is over here this is where Joseph and Emma
and hyram and Lucy mmith and Joseph Smith Senor and about 30 other individuals I think from the from the
Smith family are buried there in that Cemetery so they they when they were
doing this dig um they found all kinds of artifacts and these artifacts are very
specific artifacts and they're all stored in the basement of the red brick
store and the Community of Christ wouldn't let you in there but because I because I've was friends with with Paul
debar and we actually went out and interviewed him a couple of times for the hidden in the Heartland series with with Kel's Goodman and others um we um
we were we were given permission to go down and take a look and the whole basement of that store is filled with
the artifacts that have been found through the archaeological diggings of iig NAU and there's pottery and there's
all kinds of you know I mean things like belt buckles and and and just all kinds of stuff you know coins and things from
the from the Nauvoo period that have been found in their archaeological digging and that they had a lady down
there for a couple of years that her job was to take smashed pottery and literally piece by piece reconstruct it
into the original what it was and she was amazing she I mean she she could
take a you know it's like a 5,000 piece puzzle in three dimension three dimensions you know what what was all of
this where did it come from well well a lot of it was from navu period but this was the fascinating thing though Greg
when they did the Dig from the before the trencher the artifacts that they found they found hopwell mound builder
artifacts there were specifically platform pipes which are which are indicative of the Hopewell that you know
they they that was one thing that they did that nobody else really did before after them uh there was uh know so
there's pipes there's arroe heads and other and other um uh artifacts that
that they they know it was hell mound builder stuff and if you know anything about or those who do know something about our research on the on the on the
book of Morman geography stuff the hope well we believe were the
Nephites so that's like whoa when I found so were these artifacts in the basement or are they just somewhere in
the area or beneath it or just happened to be there from a previous time period
yeah okay so so they they were there from the previous time period and then as they've did done the digs they've
taken those artifacts that have been found in the digs either from the trenching or the actual idig NAU stuff
and they've taken all of that material and it's and it's and it's now kind of I I won't say hidden okay but but you have
to get special permission to even go down there and look at it and and the whole basement is full of these
artifacts so is that part of the purchase that's what I I don't know I'm
assuming so because it says specifically there's it says the red brick store and it says an
artifacts yes if did you see have you seen that yeah okay so if it is the
artifacts what's fascinating they actually had a uh a pretty large um kind
of a display case thing that had arrowheads that have been found in these
archaeological digs all of them are hope Mountain Builder and there's 25 burials
right there in the Smith family Cemetery so i' I've actually told people I've been on my tours it appears as if Joseph
Smith and Emma and hram and Lucy Mack and Joseph Smith Senior and their family
was literally buried in a nephite cemetery on the banks of the
river sidon that's that would be fascinating
isn't that I I don't I don't know who's buried there Greg um you know but come
Resurrection morning it'd be really interesting to see all have a party we might recognize some of their
names from The Book of Mormon that that are buried there alongside of J his family a't that interesting though yeah
yeah so that that that's a little bit about the some of the navu stuff I mean it's it's just it's fascinating of
course we know what the the hope well the NAU house basically um that's the the mansion
house that was where Joseph and Ham's bodies were actually laid in state for a
couple of days and then they were moved to the temple um and people came from all over the you know the the the the
area there to come and and pay their respects to to you know the two testators as they're
called the Joseph and hyam and of course the man mansion house at this point in
time it was kind of the Pinnacle of Joseph's um you know if you think about
here's a guy who who literally built several cities right I mean you know
from from Kirtland I mean Kirtland did exist but they really they weren't you know they the Saints came in and built
all kinds of homes and put in streets and all that kind of stuff um then there was Far West which had almost 5,000
residents it was one of the bigger cities of the area at the time and today you go out there and it's just it's just
feels I mean it's like nothing ever happened there um and then you have navoo of course and um and I mean you
know so he really I mean you think of in our lives if if in our times if we built three
cities that would be pretty that'd be quite an accomplishment on its own yeah
know but uh but yeah so the Nabu Temple again was built by by by Revelation from
the Lord to Joseph Smith in fact um I have a couple of books that are awesome this is the the first Mormon temple the
design design construction and historic context of the Kirtland Temple here it's a great book that has all
kinds of uh original images of the of the the things that were in there yeah
that one by that's by Ln C Robinson I'm not sure if it's available anymore it's it's kind
of an older book but uh it's I I love this uh you know information there and
I've got several other books I just love about this if if anybody wants to get some picture books this is my friend Al
rounds he has this book it's called the beautiful Zion um and it's got just he
he's a watercolor expert he's done a lot of work for us in the past with the with his work on the watercolors and things
like that if you can see some of the uh the paintings they're just they're just spectacular um
historical things here going on there anyway we don't have these books on Sor anything I'm just showing you these are
some cool books and then this is a one called the seasons of navoo this is actually a a
photography mhm that's like that's showing obviously the the Carthage Jail
and other stuff there so I just I've just had an opportunity to spend you know a lot of time in these areas and uh
have kind of I think maybe a unique perspective on that because of that this is NAU restored and
uh having brought thousands of people on my on my tour to these locations and
getting to know these people has been really a really a blessing well this is it'll be even more of a blessing now I
mean it's it's uh this this is historic it is obviously big news uh it's funny I
was talking to my wife and she was like is this really that I mean is it I'm like yeah it is that it is that big of a deal it it's uh it is a very historic uh
day yesterday and um yeah you know we should all be I mean obviously you feel
bad for the Community of Christ this is a big deal to them I'm sure they're down a little bit but but that's so you know
that doesn't mean that we can't be happy about it and excited about what has happened and and uh I think a lot of
people thought okay this will probably happen someday yeah and uh and here's the day we're
here we made it and and actually though these two places are unique also in in
future things you know so uh so like we have for example we have coming up here in
about another month or so U the big Eclipse right that's going over a April the 8th going over and uh and actually
myself and and a couple of friends of mine we actually doing a tour we're bringing people out there um to be at
the at the place where the 2017 eclipse happened that goes across the United
States from the Northwest to the southeast this one's going basically the opposite direction and and the two of
them kind of form an X right between where where the two of them the 2017 and
2024 eclipses happen there's some really interesting symbolism have you heard of that one yet
I have not oh mayy well well I just put it this way
the two promised lands that Christ talked about in the book of when he was with the Nephites he said the Jerusalem and the New Jerusalem those
are the two promised lands that he talks about they're on opposite sides of the earth so when one of them is in the
sunshine the other one is always in the darkness of night and vice versa as the Earth rot Ates around right of course
unless you're Flat Earth or what's so so as it as it happens that
when you have a full solar eclipse that means the sun is darkened On the Sunny
Side of the earth as well as on the dark side so both both promised lands basically are in simultaneous darkness
and that's kind of a bad Omen as far as what's going on what what's going on there and in 2017 of course seven years
later you know uh as far as uh this this eclipse coming up the two thou the this
eclipse is going to go right over the top of uh both Kirtland and navu
interesting um so it's gonna as as it's coming across there it's going to be going a literally go going over the
Kirtland area and and uh the Hill camura area and then coming down um You
probably somebody's quite a few people have been talking about the fact that uh this this eclipse is going to go over
seven nevas H you heard have you heard that yet Greg I have heard that yes I
don't know what I think of that but I have heard that yeah what I find as fascinating though is as I I haven't
done the personal research so I'm relying on somebody else so if they got it wrong you know don't hang me
but but as I understand it the only states that have a Nevea in it are in
the alignment of this eclipse going across there there's no other Nas in any
other states like there's no Neva California or Oregon or Washington or New Mexico or whatever U all the nevas
are there and they're all kind of in an alignment um going down there which is of course is interesting when you consider that Jonah um was the prophet
you know or was was the disciple basically of of Christ that uh was called to uh to go to Nineveh and and
call them to repentance and he gave them 40 days to repent or else right right so the the other one
apparently went past a whole b a whole bunch of Salems you know like Jus Salem right
it's uh there's there's that's that's kind of the uh yeah okay does that mean anything I
don't know but it is fascinating that somebody did the research on
it well that's cool well Rod really appreciate you coming on here and giving us your expertise and your experience
I'm fascinated by that dig stuff here there that uh yeah in na Vu that is
really really interesting and and and now I'm intrigued about the letter from Joseph to Emma and uh and see if that's
one of the seven that they I check that out if you ever get back there
um a lot of people don't know this but just north of the current Visitor Center there in
navoo um is is an a bluff that basically
goes along the side of the Mississippi River there on the North side um the the
U the rock quarry where they got the Stone from to build the navu temple is right in in that area but it it got
flooded when they put the damond down at Kakak and it raised the the river levels up 20 feet and it kind of and it went in
and kind of filled in that that quarry but um but just just to the north of
that um there are is an area called they call it the
curly red the curly family from Idaho actually bought this property
and the state the state of Illinois now recognizes about 14 different Native
American Mounds hopwell Mounds that are literally right there and most of them
have been looted they all kind of look like donuts because they were they were mounds and then somebody went in and you
know in the 1800s or whatever and dug them all and and recovered what whatever was
in there but those but the REM the remnants of those of those are still there and there's actually an ancient
ramp and a for for ification on the curly property right there and if and if
the Lord and Joseph Smith got it right um when J Smith received section 125 in
the doctrine of covenants um the Lord says to build up a city on the land on the other side of
the river from navoo and call it Zer Hemet why would the Lord call it Zer HLA
if it isn't you know I mean it's it's kind of a aam's razor thing you know so well maybe he called it that because it
maybe was interesting and that that's that's our that's our position that it was the zarahemla of
the Book of Mormon and there is actually uh you know tremendous amount of archaeological stuff there and also on
the navoo side of the river but if you have Nephites buried there this hope mound builder people and and they have
their Mounds just to the north of navoo and um and then you know that uh I
don't know do you know you know the original name of navu was called Commerce
yes and most people don't know why it was called Commerce but the reason why is because there was the de Mo Rapids
between navoo and the other side of the river called monos and uh and and there's this Rapids
and it was so shallow that you could literally walk across that was the the only place in the Mississippi River that
you can walk across it on foot uh in Joseph Smith day we have uh historical
accounts where people rode their horses across the river there interesting and the reason why that's important is
because if you go if you start at the mouth of the Mississippi River in in New Orleans and you follow the Mississippi
River all the way up the first place that you could cross the river on foot
is at NAU and that was so shallow that the river boats coming from New Orleans
and that area couldn't get past those Rapids it was only you know two feet deep and so they had to offload all
their their goods on the on the on the river boats going up and down the river and they would offload them there in
Kaku on the on the south side and they would put them on wagons then wagon the stuff up around the big the big
horseshoe band of you know the big curve of the of the river there by navoo up to Fort Madison and they could get on other
other River belts coming down the river they could pick up that that those supplies and things and they could go
another 180 miles further up the river but they had to stop there and do that and because of that there was a there
was a there was a natural business that was there for portaging this stuff
around on the on the Iowa side and when when Joseph Smith and the Saints got
there and they drained the swamps there in in h in navoo and and made it so they
could actually get a road then it's actually a much about a five mile shorter distance to go straight up
across this than going out around the bend so they could actually do it cheaper so they were getting all the
business on the Nauvoo side of the river versus the the west side of the river in
Iowa and that's the reason why it was originally called Commerce because they were they were taking a lot of that business away from the W from the west
side of the river and going through Nauvoo very interesting be be called josea City and the city beautiful and if
you ever get a chance to go out there um hopefully you know if somebody wants to join me on a tour we've got a we've got
a tour coming up here in April where we're actually going to be going there in fact I think I haven't verified this
but I think we're going to be the very first tour group to go out to navoo with
with the with these these properties being under the new new management if you
will new ownership of the church so it's gonna be fun to go out there and see missionaries out there yeah that's
awesome Rod thanks so much for your time and for sharing all this information this is awesome stuff uh again historic
time great information giving us context around uh what has just happened and uh
well we need to bring you back again I sure appreciate what you do and I'm I'm looking forward to you're coming to uh
you're coming in April aren't you to yes yes I'll be speaking in April at the Firm Foundation uh The Book of Mormon
the Expo yeah but Book of Mormon evidence Expo right and and so yeah
close and close enough and and uh yeah I'm very excited about that I'm speaking
Friday night and Saturday morning so yeah so so everybody uh come come in here Greg and that'd be so awesome that
we sure appreciate what you do I I I have to say that um that as I as I've watched your
your other interviews with other other other people and and so forth um I I've
really enjoyed your thoughtful response to things um I I think you've you've you've been able to thread the needle
probably as good as any as any any of the other you know uh you know
influencers podcasters and and uh and you know me you know I guess they call us
apologist I hate that word but I I don't I do not identify as an
apology I don't like that either but because people think well you don't have to apologize for the church that no it
doesn't mean that even though it basically says that so anyway I should appreciate your
your your your thoughtfulness and and that and and uh good luck thank you thank you very much thank you for the
opportunity all right rod talk to you soon all [Music]
right
