hey Greg Matson here make sure that you subscribe and hit that Bell for notifications I think you're going to
enjoy this conversation between an Evangelical and a latterday Saint Stephen has been on the program a couple
of times before but we talk about both sides of the coin here those that are negative towards Steph other Evangelical
peers uh for what he's doing and reaching out to latterday Saints and on the latterday Saint side what many
people have to say about me reaching out to people like Stephen and other
evangelicals there are some dynamics that are very parallel between the two faiths I think you'll enjoy here we
[Music]
go all right welcome to Quick show my name is Greg Matson and I am your host in this episode we bring back Steph
pcker from Mormon book reviews welcome Stephen uh Greg it's always a pleasure
to come on your program I I think I I love it because uh I'm such a I'm such a
naughty boy I feel like such a naughty boy whenever I come on your program or you come on mine and so I I feel like I
want to be a little naughty today okay well we're going to talk a little bit about Interfaith relationship between
evangelicals and Latter-Day Saints some good things but maybe some things that are a little bit sticky Y and I know
that you've had some experiences as you've brought uh uh things to light and you're in building your relationship
with Latter-Day Saints with your Evangelical peers uh tell me how that's
gone well I mean overall this endeavor and it's it's it will be next month it
will be three years uh that I started this channel okay and didn't know a single Latter Day Saint uh lives in
Florida uh brought a lot of knowledge to the table how much I didn't know because I never even had conversations with
people about what I know and my studies and research of of Latter-day sanism but also then my of course my experience my
journey uh in the Evangelical World being raised in in the Evangelical world and then leaving the Evangelical world
and then ultimately becoming an atheist and then coming back into the my community with my eyes wide open and
with also a lot of concerns about what I'm seeing in my community and so that was kind of the the the the the two
levels I was I actually have read in probably about 10 different levels now but the two levels I was operating at was me as an Evangelical stranger coming
from the enemy camp with the peace offering let's talk and that's really
what this has become a conversation between the Evangelical world and the latterday saint world and what what also
is important is people don't realize that behind the scenes I'm getting people talking together that you'll never know about uh I'm getting people
uh I I had a very prominent the son of a very prominent Jewish rabbi uh come came to Salt Lake City B last week came from
Brooklyn New York he he contacted me because I'm very well known in the ultra Orthodox community uh that's a long
story and of itself again that's the Interfaith aspect of what I'm trying to do and uh he reached this out to me last
weekend last week or the week before and he says hey I'm going to be at a conference in Park City and I have one free day and I got a friend of mine that
wants to come and we'd like to get some recommendations from you about sites we could go see while we're in Utah
religiously speaking you know within the Mormon context and I put him in touch with somebody who's a Friend of Mine
Monica who uh helps does has a church calling to do Interfaith work so here you have these two Jewish guys given a
guided t tour of of Temple Square and all the adjacent facilities they did uh some family genealogical work they went
and visit the Church History Museum he was thoroughly impressed with it and was very grateful that this thing happened
this isn't something that's going to be on the channel but this is every day is an Interfaith act and I'm getting and
especially with an Evangelical word I'm getting prominent evangelicals Evangelical pastors behind the scenes
having these conversations many of them can't publicly um acknowledge you're
doing this because they'll get in trouble by their denominational authorities or from people in their congregation but again folks the cat's
out of the bag the conversations that hadn't happened in the past are happening again and I think what the work that Jeff MCCA is facilitating that
and I also think that the work that I'm doing is facilitating it as well like somebody told me uh last week they said
Steve you and Jeff mcculler are the only two evangelicals that Latter-Day Saints listen to and I think I consider that to
be a very privileged place to be and so yeah it's been a very interesting Journey but I also feel like there's a
lot of concerning things that I do see coming from the Evangelical camp that is doesn't isn't very Christlike and I do
feel like is bullying and I I think I just feel like I wanted to come on your platform to kind of talk about some
concerns about certain groups and people in my camp that I think are doing tremendous damage um inflicting
tremendous damage uh uh in this in this whole Interfaith uh Endeavor okay well start with it tell me
tell me what's going on I know because look this is what happens I have a lot of discussions with with Jeff Mulla for
example I have discussions with other fairly prominent evangelicals that I've I've made friends with over the last
several years and it always comes down to the same kind of thing I think it's
because it's the same thing that I experience right as as I speak with you or I speak with Jeff for example those
are the two most maybe prominent uh evangelicals that I put on the on the show I I get push back right and and uh
you know mo not from most people but some yeah right they're kind of like well wait a minute and and I will say
and I'm going to let you speak on this but I think it's for different reasons some are the same but I think there's
some different reasons why I would get pushed back from my end and you would get pushed back from your end but tell
me about the push back that you get you know it's so fascinating because what's so interesting is I literally had evangelicals say that I actually have a
whole hidden agenda that I work for the church this is stuff that has been leaked to me on different message boards that people been monit answering and and
that I actually I'm a wolf and sheep's clothing which that does not sound very familiar and uh and so so I'm hearing
the same types of things and yeah you get this small fringey kind of fringey but minority but these people they they
make they're they have very loud voices uh their influence might be disproportionate to what how it actually
is but still they are uh affecting the conversation so I do think that it's important that we do address that and
that's actually the reason I almost just so you know I literally was thinking of reaching out to John dein of Mormon
stories this conversation but then I thought about your platform I think is better for this because you are you're
actually um doing the Interfaith stuff you're talking to me and Jeff and and David Boyce as well 52 churches you're
you're you're also engaging and speaking at uh Evangelical conferences and also speaking at joint conferences that are
Latter-Day Saint oriented that are inviting evangelicals so I really feel like you're doing a very very important work in facilitating these conversations
and I think for all the haters out there of you okay I want to put this out here this is for those of you who are from
the ex Mormon Community or you're from the progressive community and you attack Greg Manson I just want you to think of
one important thing a lot of criticisms that people make about religion in general is that all the wars have been
caused because these religious groups would battle each other and we have religion is to blame well don't you want peacemakers Within These religions to
talk to each other and that we can we can diffuse the tensions between these groups so actually I think you're doing a work that could be lauded by a secular
people as well that's why I I continue to have you my program because I think you're doing a very important work to
facility if Greg Manson gets cancelled then it really ultimately will will
cause suffering uh for bringing peace into our camps and I don't want to cancel Greg Manson should not be
canceled I think Greg Manson is never going to be canceled but I think for those of you who are trying to do it you're actually undermining a
peacemaking work just about there for
you all right so you're not a wolf and sheep's clothing but but you know uh and you're not getting getting paid by the
church but I it sounds like you're getting paid by me no I'm just kidding no I appreciate that that's
great so as you've gone through this then has this evolved in a way where
you've got your your your platform platform has grown you're speaking more and more to several different Latter-Day
Saints and and I you speak to several different voices throughout the restoration movement but but with the
latterday Saints does this put you in a position where there are how do I say
this I mean is it the more fundamental um the more I I I would say
dogmatic maybe even voices start to come out and say wait a minute Stephen what
are you doing why are you doing this yes I would and I think I texted this to you is that it's it's and if this really
coming from the hyper calvinist Neo fundamentalist Camp the people that look cool and have their beards and you know
they're they're fashionable and you know I you know that I do mixed martial arts and all these I'm the cool Christian but
man there mixed martial arts is a part of that yeah perhaps I don't know it's just it's just a weird group of people
be perfectly honest with you I think that the the the camp of people that are attacking me are represent a very toxic
element within evangelicalism which has infected evangelicalism don't get me wrong it's a mess over here okay it's
gotten political it's gotten very nasty uh you got people you got all these
gatekeep to say you're a Christian you're not a Christian you're going to hell you're going to heaven these people
it's it's it's insane okay so I I just want to give you a parallel here I tell people that you could argue that
Mormonism in one sense got one of its starts was from that Presbyterian
Minister who went to the Smith family and said Alvin is burying in hell because he did not get a presbyterian
baptism I think that's that's that's one of the impetuses for Mormonism because it was Joseph Smith tried to find a way
to get his brother into heaven in one sense he did he found a way okay which I think is a beautiful thing in one sense
I think whether you want to take it literally or metaphorically I think it's a beautiful story okay so then I I go
last so last fall is when I started getting more and more attacks and this actually goes all the way back to the beginning of the channel That this camp
this particular group of NE fundamentalists hyper Calvinists is I get I I'm going to Utah
to witness the historical event of the very first time a person who's going to be baptized into the Church of Jesus
Christ in the state of Utah those are the bicker tonights okay so it's a historic thing I fly out there just to witness the baptism because and then
attend the very first bicker tonight church service ever and I have this Presbyterian Minister that morning I'm
announcing hey I'm coming and that morning this Presbyterian Minister goes to me he says is Joseph Smith a true
prophet of God or is he a con man or a scoundrel something like that I'm like
what a stupid question it's an either or question like
you know was David the apple of God's eye or was he a murderer see people are
complex even producers of scripture are and I just really hate that mansan black
and white thinking I think it's important to have your values but I think sometimes we get too and I see in the ex Community they addresses
black and white and just as fundamentalists as many people religions are so so I'm not giving them a free P either but when he asked that question I
thought that's the same spirit that Presbyterian Minister has the same
spirit of that Presbyterian Minister that went after the Smith family and saying that Alvin's burning in hell and
that's why there's if you will the need for a restoration and the need for a
Reformation because when we have that kind of thinking the uh basically just
infect our world that they're on and then they put these blinders on and they live in this very small world I feel bad
for him because this guy he's he's a pastor of What's called the Orthodox Presbyterian Church uh which is very
similar to the Christian Reformed Church that my family has roots in he reminds me a lot of the oldtime Christian
Reformed pastors that that came in my life as a kid and I feel like he just doesn't even have the tools he still
thinks like a 19th century calvinist and we're living in the 21st century now and this guy's been in Utah for over 20 plus
years trying to save Mormons and nobody's ever heard of him I went to a Christian a Mormon scholar
who's a Christian minister and I get I said his name he's like I've never even heard of that guy I said well you believe that he had a TV show on the
Christian television station the same channel that Shan mccraine of Heart Of The Matter was on this guy had he had his own TV show he moderates debates he
he just thinks it's a really big deal what he's done and literally has had no impact in the Latter-Day Saint Community
nobody's ever heard of this guy and this is the issue that I have we have these so-called cottage industries these
Evangelical Ministries that go into Utah and say we're saving Mormons send us
your money so we can save Mormons and show how they're wrong show that Joseph Smith was a Comm man show that they were
doing satanic satanic temple rights in the temple or whatever garbage nonsense
they're putting out their propaganda spiritual pornography okay a lot of this stuff is garbage that they're putting
out and they and they they move to Utah and they get some are getting six seven
figures a year uh some of these guys are making a nice little nice Liv in nice little homes and drive nice cars and get
to go around and uh get book deals and they're basically profiting after
uh by bashing the church Jesus Christ L Saints the problem is nobody listens to them nobody even knows who these people
are people dismiss them and and that's the reality of the situation is a lot of
these Christians are giving money to these organizations and they're just basically not having any impact on I'm
I'm speaking from experience here if I were to give the names of these people go to the history Association and
say there's this group that has research in its name Mormon researchers that's they have one of that's part of their
name and I don't want to get too much these people nobody would have said I have no idea who these people are so
they have research in their thing and they're putting out stuff but they're not even acknowledged by the scholarly community so have no impact in the
scholarly community and by the way just so you know Greg I was recently offered to sit on the board of directors of one
of the uh uh oldest most important Mormon scholarly
associations and I was offered a spot on the board of directors I turned it down
because I just I said I'm just going to be a name on a piece of paper and I think it'd be off to have somebody's more handson I would want to give a it
was just an honor to be nominated but that's the that's the extent like a lot of people think I'm having an effect in
the culture you know like a popular culture the biggest impact this channel is having is actually in the scholarly
community and even the scholars even though I'm just some bro who wears a flat brim hat and lives with his mom in a 50-year-old mobile home uh the work
that I'm doing is actually respected by the Latter-Day Saint scholarly Community to the point to be I mean I hear from
people at the Maxwell Institute all the time the president of the the the new executive director of the uh Max
Institute is a self-professed fanboy of my channel so here we have these so-called
Christian researchers that nobody's ever heard of putting out these books putting out materials that nobody's reading
inside of Utah and it's not having any impact on the conversation that's what I was ask
is there even is it even that effective for them you know I mean they're going to have an objective here
of well we're going to save the Mormons I mean how and sure there's going to some people here and there but
I I it's it seems to me that those that have that kind of a mentality and I'm not talking about just evangelicals I'm
talking about all denominations right it's like look there there is there is there is
always this is something that I have taken a while to learn in my life and that is the need to be right is very
strong and it can overcome a lot of things that are a lot better and of a
lot higher value mhm and so the idea of
I'm going to show them that I'm right or from my my side I'm going to show them
that I'm right y right is a pretty bankrupt approach to
anything and and yet that's honest and honestly I will say this right because we are a minority in this country um
that's what we're used to yeah that's what we're used to hearing and it's the signs at General
Conference and the people saying that you're going to hell and I mean I don't
know where we're going in this conversation but I can give you other examples in my own personal life but it's it's like you know from from a young age I
was I was refined from this opposition into a point of oh well I guess this is
how people feel about what I believe in and there's going to be this immunity
that is built up that it's all it's just it's just it's water off my back you know that's
all it is and when I hear it yeah that's that's exact that's the whole point is that well I do I do I do actually think
that toxic mascul look I'm not I'm not a I'm not a politically correct guy and
I'm not I'm not I'm not a progressive which is another thing they keep on calling me a progressive which is a flat out lie and I've demonstrated on
multiple occasions that I have identified as my myself is a Libertarian Christian which means if you want to
edit do selective editing you could make me sound like I'm some leftwing Progressive or you can make me sound like I'm some right-wing demagogue it's
all a m you know I'm a raw shark test you know but of how people identify but what I find interesting is you have
these people that are doing this and I really think they're virtually all males they all have one thing in common they
typically are male and I do feel that it is a type of toxic masculinity and this
isn't just in just this corner we can see this there there are Mormon apologists that actually uh have attacked me that also are all male and I
would argue is it suffer it's a type of toxic masculinity and it's that need to I have to be right now I have to say
when I was a young kid I was that person so I I I know what it's like to even be that person and I know how in my mind
the way it works The end justifies the means it don't matter how you get there the important thing is to show them
they're wrong and whatever tactic I need to do to do it whatever little diversions that I need to do whatever uh
whatever however I'm going to do it I'm just going to run rough shot over them and and put them in their place okay
that was my spirit that I had too so so that same toxicity also was part of me as well so I'm I'm kind of actually kind
of reaching out to these people and say listen it doesn't have to be this way the problem I have with a lot of these evangelicals that are attacking me and a
lot of them are doing it either publicly like uh I'm I'm really bothered by one in particular one guy who's tied in with
this one group his name I'll just give his first name his name is Aaron
and he attacked me uh in August of 2021 when I had I I was talking about um in
an episode I had a guest on and I made a comment I said I don't have a dog in this fight and and then and he attacked
how can you call yourself an Evangelical Christian and say you don't have a dog in this fight so I'm like what is he
talking about so I rewind the tape I rewatched it that night afterwards and I said yeah you know when it comes to the
Book of Mormon geography issue I don't have a dog in this fight that's the context like he wanted
me to take a position on Book of Mormon geography I mean that's weird thing wait wait a minute Stephen what what is the
Evangelical position on Mormon G Book of Mormon
geography this is fascinating to me I'll give you my position but but I can't the Evangelical
position is they don't know because they don't know anything about Mormonism that's the reality and because
of their ignorance these people are able to uh raise some nice money and say well see
they look at you guys like well we got you know like sending out missionaries to the rest of the world you're this lost people group that needs to be saved
and we're sending out money to help people get these people saved because they're heading for hell they they think of you no differently than any other
group throughout the world that they would be trying to do missionary work with Okay the problem is is that's all they know about Mormonism is is what
it's so limited like outside of the Mormon Corridor the knowledge of Mormonism from evangelicals is quite simply okay there was that John Smith
guy that and bring him young and and then they usually conflate you guys with
the Jehovah's Witnesses I mean they just don't know anything so I don't really have a position but the point about this
whole this attack on me was I went to him I said listen I said that's then and
then and and say I don't know how you can call yourself a Christian or an Evangelical Christian or some variation of that and say
that so he is the referee he's the one that's going to determine whether I'm in or out of the camp based on just me
making a statement which was stupid so I reached out to him continuously I literally spent almost two years two and a half years reaching out to him say
listen let's you and I sit talk on zoom and have a conversation a civil conversation then last spring he started
attacking me again never gave me the heads up when I would be critical of him on some programs because I have
mentioned him by name on other programs including Mormon stories I I reached out to mutual friends say hey let him know that I'm going to be talking about him
tonight on on today's episode of Mormon stories or whatever and after a while I just gave up on that because he would
never ever the zoom call and do you know why because bullies like pick on people under that's
beneath their weight class they don't want to talk to somebody that actually is more knowledgeable in the subject than they are because they know that
they're going to be they're going to be fried I mean I mean I would literally just walk March circles around these
people and expose their ignorance of the topic these so-called Christian Experts of Mormonism their knowledge of
Mormonism is so superficial and so so ridiculous it's laughable and I have
other Christians just so you know there are many I have a I have an alliance of many many other Christian ministers and
other Christian Scholars who engage Mormon scholarship who know are knowledgeable of the topic all agree
with me that these people are not doing any good for the for the community and I almost feel like I had to come into this
world to help clean up the mess that these guys have done to the to to to our relationships between our camps they're
the wedge and they want to keep the wedge there and that's why they're attacking me and that's why they're probably Jeff MCA and others because
they they see us as a threat also I think in one sense a threat to their livelihood and because the evangelicals
are now coming I'm I have a large Evangelical audience now and they're learning about Mormonism from this channel now and once you've watched 450
plus videos with hundreds of guests with some of the top Scholars of Mormonism some of the top Christian scholars in
the world some of the top uh intellectuals and you name them I've had them on some of the top critics of the
church some of the top people at BYU and and all the and and from the Maxwell Institute and from Fair Mormon and from
you know all these groups you're going to have a much better education you're going to have a much better knowledge of
Mormonism than anything that you're going to get out of most of these Christian organizations now there's a few groups that I I do feel like I I
feel like Ross Anderson um has a group called Faith after Mormonism it's an Evangelical Outreach group and it's
admittedly that's what they do but I feel like he uh he wrote a couple books for zandan um which I think are actually
pretty good he actually did a book about the Book of Mormon explaining what the Book of Mormon is and explaining what Mormonism is to to Evangelical audiences
and I thought he was he had the right Spirit okay so so there's a guy that I like and of
course love her or hate her this the Tanners played a very pivotal role um
Sandra Tanner who's still with us Gerald passed away a while back um I feel that they they they're legit they're the
they're the real deal like they did real research right I mean they I mean bigu
Scholars would go to their store to get materials so they could do research okay so so they actually played a positive
net contribution to Mormon scholarship okay and so and and just so you know I I
I want to I I always feel like the Tanners are painted um so again let's if you don't just I'll just riff a little
bit on this there's a story and it's in this book um called Lighthouse about the
Tanners so I'm just saying say if you're going to do Christian apologetics or Christian research I think that they're
the ones to emulate so there's this story now Gerald and Sandra Tanner um left the LDS church
when they were young they were just like I think they were teens and uh Gerald uh but still believed in the Book of Mormon
and Gerald did a lot of research on Mormonism well when they finally made their final break with the restoration
they attended a church in downtown Salt Lake City and there were just kids like 21 or 22 23 years old and Gerald goes to
the pastor and says listen if you say one ill word about the Church of Jesus
Christ the latterday Saints from the pulpit in church I'm going to stand up and I'm going to walk
out that's the Tanners they weren't haters the problem I have with a lot of
these people that are are trying to take the mantle of the of the of the ter of the of the Tanners or try to try to
emulate them is that they're they're trying to um cause Division and
weaponize Mormon history and they're trying to hurt uh people and undermine
their faith and the issue I have with a lot of these Christians is the reason why so many latterday Saints just go
straight to atheism is because of people like you they see you outside doing your
demonstrations and they're like you know what if I were to ever go and leave this
church I definitely don't want to go over there I don't I I don't want I don't want to be counted amongst those people so I feel that that the main one
of the main reasons people who leave Mormonism become atheists is because of evangelicals we need to own that that
that's the reality and I want to help show and this is the thing I have people go to me and say Steve my shelf broke a
year ago I don't know what I believe anymore but you give me hope that I could find a way to believe in God again
see that's what I'm that's what's different between me and what they're doing and I'm not trying to tell people to leave the church I'm not look I tell
people I don't attack the church I don't defend the church I'm just there to be a neutral podcaster but I do know there's
a lot of things at stake here and there are lives at stake I had to talk to somebody down from a suicide a few weeks ago okay a latterday saint so that that
and as a Christian that means a lot that I'm able to help it's it's become a Ministry in that way where these people they don't they don't care all they care
about is winning arguments and being right that's not the right spirit so I don't see any fruits of the spirit ever
all these people have attacked I've yet to see one fruit and I think to myself man I know all these latterday Saints
and I see all the fruits of the spirit and they're they're abundant and I'm like okay I know what
it's like to be Joseph Smith because that Presbyterian Minister said what he said to me and I
was like yep Joseph I know exactly what it feels like do you think that I mean obvious
you know I there is certainly an ignorance of Latter-day Saints about the
Evangelical world what is believed yeah um that's going to be pretty natural I
think between any group uh but we again being the minority we're
usually going to know a little bit more about what the majority is teaching and what you know we we're going to hear it
from a lot of different angles right whether it's in your school at your work in in media Etc do you think that that
um a lot of this from the Evangelical side to the Latter-Day Saints is just plain built on ignorance yes it's built
on ignorance and most Christians even angelical really don't know much about their own faith either so so they're not well sced let's just put it that way and
the average lday St probably's kind of you know they just go through you know they don't know a whole lot either they're learning a lot about the history of their Church from my channel
okay and uh but yeah and see it's these these it's these Peddlers of anti-mormon
propaganda that are able to take advantage of this ignorance and make a nice living get nice book contracts and
and uh you know bring in six figures and hey it's look if I if I if I didn't have
a moral Center man I'd probably be doing the same thing and raising let's save the
Mormons we're going to have a special fundraiser we got to save the Mormons there you know save the lost at any cost you know we got send me your
money I could do that I I'm with that's part I mean I'm CA perfectly capable of
doing that but that would be for me and me that would be just just for me and my
my ego and it would just be for me lining my pocketbook now there are some good sincere Christians out there that
are doing a good work and I'm not I'm not I don't want to paint them all the broad Strokes here okay there are some
good people out there and I've even already commended a couple of them might be controversial for some of you but there are good people in the Evangelical
world that are engaging the restoration I think on an in an adult mature way they're saying this is what we believe
this is where we disagree but we can have conversations I think that's that's the the the spirit that I operate under
too rather than say that this is just all some big cult and we got to get people out of there and it's like you know it's just so sad it's so sad the
name calling they call it a a brainwashing cult you know in one of these books that I had read this and
it's sad and it's sick and this is what these Christians this is all they have is garbage like this now I will tell you
that my friend Dr Kyle Bashers who is a an assistant pastor at a mega church in
Mobile Alabama he's got his uh his mdiv I believe from uh the Southern Baptist
Theological Seminary he's he's got he's writing a book for a major christian publisher
that's going to reset everything it's that it's going to start a different
conversation this is 21st century evangelicalism engaging 21st century
Latter-Day Saint ISM we are this is part of that this with I'm part of that spearhead and that book is G is like I
said it's going to be published by a Christian publisher and I'm very excited about it and he's told me bits and pieces I've read some segments from it
and it's just it's approaching it from a much Kinder lens and I honestly feel
like we're cousins man the reality is we're part of the same family in many ways you were birthed out of the your
your Joseph Smith was in an born and raised in an Evangelical World Joseph Smith was a young Methodist exhorter
exhorting people to come to Christ and Methodist camp meetings Okay Joseph
Smith it was a born- again Christian flat out I'm just going to say it right now what would later be called The First
Vision I believe Joseph young Joseph Smith had what would call a born again experience so and and and so to me and and I always
tell people on April 6 1830 that assembly was full of Born
Again Spirit-filled um Bible believing Christians them's my
people and so I really feel like this this these these and look there were there things that would later happen
that would cause there to be differences and riffs that were you know that that the church made some theological claims
that obviously we don't agree with yes I I agree with you but I think at the very at the very center of primitive
Mormonism is evangelicalism and so I really feel like that's that that's a really important
that we acknowledge that and that we as evangelicals need to kind of own that and we need to reset the conversation
which I think is what we're starting to do and we need to also just show that a lot of the stuff that evangelicals are putting out there about Mormonism is
garbage so I think that from each side there's there's a couple of things that
maybe even can be explained by a phrase or two from
both sides one from the Latter-Day Saint side would be well they're not part of the true
church okay and there's theology behind that there's a belief system behind that but depending on how you actually are
using that right would determine how you would engage with someone outside of the
church right on the other side from the Evangelical side what we here all the time is well you're not really
Christians you're not true Christians right and that is just it's a shock to us we're like what do you mean we're not
true Christians that guy you know that you read about that was born to Mary uh in Bethlehem that that's who we
worship the one that healed everyone the one that went to you know Gethsemane and
on the cross and then Rose the third day that's who we worship yeah now the
nature of that individual is something we disagree on but yes and and this is
the thing I I would say look people say you say that Mormons are Christians I said no I've never said that but I would what I will say this is I'm using
academic terms here okay the AC the academic terminology is that you guys are not Orthodox Nan Christians you're
just not and you would not acknowledge you would they say yeah we don't believe in the Trinity we don't believe in this formula you know you would agree that
yeah you know we are we are not Nan Christians however I would consider I would categorize you again in a
scholarly sense you guys what I would call hetal Christians okay meaning you're not
Orthodox but I would also say I wouldn't necessarily say that we we have to say that they're not Christian I would say
that they you guys are a type of Christianity I just think it's to to to call you guys a cult to say that you're
not Christians um look yeah they're not nicean Christians don't me get me wrong and I want to make it very clear that
there are fundamental you know theological differences that we do hold but to say that Mormonism isn't Christian is is just it's not it doesn't
hold water anymore yeah I and I think you're on the right for me you're on the right track there I I I think what I
would say in aside from hetero uh Orthodoxy because we would
believe we're Orthodox right but it's believe it's all a perspective but but I
would say we're not I would go beyond nyine and I would say we're not credal Christians right yeah I would say you
know most of the rest of Christianity is credal Christian there is non Christian
tradition non-al Christians and there's look we have a restoration we have restoration as Christians in our own
Camp it's called Church of Christ which was the name of your original Church The Stonewall Camplite movement s rigan was
a was a restorationist the rest the idea that the of a restoration pre-existed the Mormon restoration and the days I we
just want to go back to the Bible we want to throw out all the it's Deeds not Creeds so there is a there is a a a very
uh very strong tradition of non-o Christianity that exists in it's and and
in many ways has found its place in the Protestant world so so it's not even even you guys taking that position being
non-al that still I think still fits within the the larger uh you know area
yeah the umbrella of Christianity yeah yeah so there there's a couple things that I try to do with Interfaith work
I've been able to develop relationships in with in the Evangelical world in the Catholic World in the Jewish world in in
Ur chur of England um Southern Baptists um specifically but
it's and it's this I I always think of the woman at the will yes and Christ
going to her a Samaritan and his disciples saying what
are you doing what in the world are you doing um and it's like you know he's not
saying hey I'm I'm staying away from you right she he's also not going up there
and and Bible bashing her right it it's he he's approaching her and and you know
for us we would see you as evangelicals as the woman at the well and you would
see us as the woman at the well right right and I think that's a really important approach to look at and
secondarily I I I've always thought there's another kind of filter that I put in place and that is well
when am I playing the role religious role of the Secretary of
Defense and when am I playing the role of Secretary of State and there are times when I need to
play the role of Secretary of Defense where where I'm standing up for something that I believe is being attacked right um but my default
position and it didn't always used to be this way but my default position is wherever possible I want to be the
secret AR of State yep and and and make build a
relationship before I worry about who's right yes and that has proven for me to
be very fruitful and and there is something very and I think this is a universal
truth right something very rich and something very righteous I'll
say in working with those that aren't like you
and and and trying to build like it's that's marriage even you know it's you know it's it's working with someone who
isn't you and trying to work things out right that's being a parent it's the
same thing with your kids your kids are not always like you and and it's building a relationship and it's to me
that's a lot that has a lot to do with charity and what I would call the Pure Love Of Christ and so it's
if you want to do that I think you have to be able to open a door that
says I the relationship is important that doesn't mean that either side has
to give up on their belief system on what they believe is true for
evangelicals a very biblical perhaps soless scura uh uh point of view but
that doesn't mean we can't build relationships and learn from each other so can I ask you question um you have
been engaging in this Interfaith dialogue with other evangelicals and other groups as well and I'd like just
to hear from you what one what kind of uh have you gotten any push back in the Evangelical community and two have you
gotten push back from people in your camp that feel that you're you're going too far maybe just I'm really curious
about what your experiences have been doing doing this thing the answer is yes to both um it it uh you know let me
start on the negative here so it's um yeah there there are those that feel that you know especially in because you
know probably had Jeff on more than anybody else on on my show and that feel that I'm uh I'm giving a platform to
someone who is just a wolf and sheep's clothing and um is pulling away all of
these people and am like you know I which I don't believe for a
second but it's it's more I I I feel that um
there there are two tracks and and latterday Saints and probably I'm guessing I I don't know for sure but I'm
guessing evangelicals also are very used to a single tract of of communication
and that is a missionary tract right right and it's like no this is if you're
not going down this road and we're having an Interfaith discussion and between different and you're not going
in the Latter-Day Saint world if you're not inviting the missionaries over and making progress with the discussions and
then then reading the book of Mormon and having a a a completely humble View at at at Moroni 10 and asking yourself the
question then you're not sincere and you're not you're not
someone who is you know who we should build a relationship with and there are people that say those
things and and I'm like what are you talking about what does that have anything to do with a relationship built
between a child of God and another child of God understand it's important for
us and and that that that I could wish for that with with an
Evangelical but that's not going to stop my relationship with that person that is
like saying well if you're not moving toward a path of being saved or following Christ that he's just going to
turn and leave you you're done and and that that to me is just not
a it's not a uh it's not a Christlike uh um role and again I'm not
trying to put myself up as some example of that I'm not but but so I think that that's you know that's that's one side
of it of the coin um the other side is um on the Latter-Day Saint side is yeah
it's it's it's most people are very positive about it they like to see this
a lot of Latter-day Saints do not feel welcomed and so it's interesting to them
that someone actually seems to be open and to be able to discuss things with them and then on the Evangelical side
um I do have H I have had push back on that um there's some that just do not
want to get past the idea that I am the enemy and I and it really is that it it
is a it is you know I have had experiences from the time I was in
school as a kid right where was you know my dad says you're going to
hell and you know that affects you yeah right it's like oh I see oh okay that's
what some people think about me and my family and or I've had uh I had I've had
several unfortunate experiences in business you know I was I was a
financial adviser I had a wealth management firm for a while and um I I
had a few clients that once they found out I was a latterday saint they dropped
me and and they were very clear on it and they were just you know we just can't do business with
you and uh like okay you know that's all right and uh even though there had been
a very good rapport and relationship that had been built up there now again saying that that is the minority yep
right that's definitely the minority uh in in those cases but uh yeah that that
has happened and those that I am able to build a relationship with I I really believe that on both sides and I've got
some relationships with some fairly prominent people it's it's
uh they're just they just have a different point of view than those other individuals they
are they don't see what would it be you know they they
don't they don't uh and it's not just a relationship with a Latter-Day Saint
right so if this is someone from the church of England they're going to have the same type of openness to an evangelic to any Evangelical or to the
Catholics Episcopal you know they're going to have the same openness so it's not just for for Latter-Day Saints but
that's the type of person I did a uh I did uh last year I did a seven-part
series with Dell tacket and uh some people don't know deltus some people in the Evangelical
world don't know he is but he's pretty prominent and he he has uh he is the uh founder of the truth project and this is
something that is taught in numerous different churches across the country and Beyond um he was on the team of
George Bush um you know but he was very open and he came on my program and did a
seven part series on his points of view
on his seven threats as he call calls them and and he was to completely open to it and he's the same way with others
and and it's like but that's someone who has had a lot of life experience and a lot of cultural experience and they're
not just dogmatic in their own point of view that doesn't mean he gives up his
beliefs that doesn't mean that he gives up his relationship with God or that it is a detrimental to that in any way but
he's going to work with others who are not necessarily like him
well thanks for answering that it's very fascinating just to hear long answer no it's fine I I like that because it's
really important that we have these kind of conversations that's why I really uh appreciate the work that you're
doing uh and and I feel like it's so important that in this period of time you know I think I think one of the most
important interviews I've ever done on my channel was when you and Jacob Hansen came out and we talked about the issues happening in your church you know and I
and people were were very complimentary of it saying wow like this is the only place this conversation can be held what
a great job and you had a civil conversation about a very difficult topic and I think that's the key thing I think we what you and I are doing is
modeling how we can have civil conversations with people that are different than us that we have disagreements with and rather than talk
about it and talk about how it's impossible we actually just go ahead and do it and we've done it and we're showing
that it can be done now sometimes you I even told you I've told you on the phone you know you've booked some guests on your program I probably never would but
I'm not going to tell you who who you can or can't talk to I'll never go to another podcaster and say you should or shouldn't do this like no you do you
I'll do me everybody has their own you know set of rules how they operate and it's and we all have our moral centers
and and how we how we deal with these things but I just think it's really important that you know as bad and and
tumultuous as our world is is right now as it currently stands especially in this country you and I are able to show
how you're able to have civil conversations like what you're doing with Jeff is fantastic you know so to me that's that's really I
think I think that's our calling honestly to do this kind of work
I think that's why you and I are similar in many regards of how our outlooks on things and and and look you you st you
take positions and you have you're a man of conviction and I appreciate that and and so I think it's just unfair to try
to take people like Greg and I and and then try to put us in a box well we're we're not going to be put in a box we're
actually going to blow it up and say listen the way we've been doing things the way the Restoration in the
Evangelical world has the way it's been going for the last 200 years I think we need to do something different you know
and that's really honestly what I feel too is you know I I didn't come on here to go and start like bashing people I'm
just want to bash I I'm opposed to their tactics I really feel like they're not
look there's this one group that's based in your backyard that has a church and they also have a big YouTube channel and
they literally they believe they're NN Christians who believe there's one IV true Christian Catholic Church okay
that's part of Nan Creed and they have what it's called table fencing where basically only people in their little
group can take communion I know they do something in the LDS world too but that would they would exclude me from
partaking so when you take a position that we believe in one true Universal Catholic church and we fence the table
man that that's that that that's to me is as exclusionary as any anything that
you could say about the Latter-Day Saint church and so to me it's like I just I think that's just awful you know that
they would exclude a large percentage of evangelicals from participating in their own communion Services that's how weird
it and fringey it gets sometimes and and I just feel like these people have these platforms and they're just able to just
use their blow horn and just throw out you know just just look they don't want
to talk to me they'll they'll they'll they'll Corner the missionaries on the street and do their aha camera thing oh
we made a point La we sure showed him yeah you know what I dare you I dare you guys to talk to me
I dare you to come on my program I dare you to invite me to come on your program because there will be a heck of a lot different conversation what you're
having is you're bullying bullying people and you're not doing anything Christian about it there's nothing
Christlike in anything that I see and your nastiness towards people that are different than you your nastiness towards lgbtq people the nastiness you
have towards women uh and and just all these things it's it's terrible it's toxic so toxic and we need to fumigate
this the the the uh the the Evangelical world of these types of ideas not people
but these ideas that that that just really have just infected our people and
we need you know what I guess this is what I have to say about the Evangelical World largely we need
Jesus we have tra we have traded traded in our prophetic Birthright as a people
for raw political power that's what we have decided to do as a people and honestly we have lost
our salt and life as a result that's that's I'm just that's how I call it Greg I mean I really feel grieved to see
what's happened to my community and I see and I'm grieved to see how these people will make money on the backs of
lies about the Latter-Day Saints and and demonizing you guys bullying you guys
and making you guys out to be just this evil organization and evil people are who are of the devil and are going to
hell yeah because if you believe that somebody's going hell you implicitly believe that they're evil that's just that's that's just how they would view
their that's how they view the world that if you're not don't profess the right Creed if you don't believe the
right formula of the Trinity if you don't believe this this and that you all these things then you're evil and you
are deserving not only not only are you evil and wrong you're deserving of
Eternal damnation and Punishment and this is a good thing that is happening and then to top the whole thing off
these are Calvinists who believe in predestination so they know there's like once God has decided that you are going
to hell there's nothing can be done and my whole argument is where is your Humanity that if you really believe that
like 90% of the world is destined to go to hell and suffer eternal torment why in the world would you want to make
their lives hell here on Earth why don't you show some empathy for these people if you really believe that these people
are going to be suffering and there's nothing that you can do about it because God's already determined that they're going to hell all right and be with that
and said you know you know what they're going to hell and you know what I'm going to do I'm going to make their lives hell while they're here on Earth
and my whole thing is if if I believe that I'd be like man I feel really bad for these people I'm going to show them as much love as I can because what
they're heading for Is Not Great which of course I don't believe that anymore I was raised as a calvinist but that's what it does to you it actually makes
makes your other human image it makes the other image Bears literally into demons and that's a warped thinking and
I totally understand when Joseph Smith was told that there's the all these
other churches and all these other Creeds the stuff that they're teaching I get it because a lot of that stuff is
poisonous and I understand like I I can resonate with what would you know the finalized version of the of the 1838
version of the first Vision I can resonate with some of the messages was going on there because Joseph Smith was
being persecuted by the by The Same Spirit of persecution that Joseph Smith was being tacked by it's happening to me
but guess what it it doesn't I don't lose any sleep over just so you know I don't lose any sleep over these
people it does has no effect on my life whatsoever I'm more amused by it more
than anything but but there is a lot at stake here because you know to to say
that you're a Christian and then and look I went I was literally I went to St Petersburg Florida to go on a a lgbtq
program wearing a Jesus t-shirt by the way and I'm I'm I'm literally just reaching out to the LGBT community in in
my backyard and I'm on the show and one of the ladies on the panel goes to me and she says you know what even jellicles can be so cruel and I said you
know what you're right we can be very very cruel Rule and they can be very
cruel to lgbtq people and they can be very cruel to people that are different than them and certainly 90% of
Evangelical churches if a person were to come in and say that they're a Mormon um they would not be greeted they would not
not be treated very well and they would in many cases they would be told you need to leave or you need to get saved
and I just feel like it's so sad to see this kind of stuff now the good news is
this progress is being made I'm working with Interfaith work with the church my new co-host on the Utah Interfaith Forum
channel is Monica ringers and she is a Dynamo she has a church calling to do Interfaith work and she's going to be my
co-host on my Utah Interfaith Channel and we're just gonna we're just GNA do it dude we're just going to start having
these positive conversations we're not going to let let the negative people the people who are toxic uh interf that it's
just not going to have any effect on the work that we're doing and I know that this is the Lord's work this is my calling to do
this well Stephen I appreciate that you know I think uh I I will say that there's an awful
lot of positive feedback that that that comes back from from these conversations you know one of
the places that I I I would say specifically but not exclusively where
that comes from our are families that have both evangelicals and latterday Saints in them and it's like thank you
so much this is such a great this is the kind of conversation I wish we had at the dinner table when we're all together
yeah right and sometimes it doesn't work out that way for them and so I think that this helps articulate some of those
Avenues and and those types of discussions that can take place there but of course it goes well beyond that I believe it's overall just you know
reaching out an olive branch and and you can hang on to your beliefs and open the
door to other people that it's you have to be able to do that and in the world we live in in an information heavy world
where you are bombarded with information from all angles you're you're going to hear things from
a lot of different sources anyway and and so to be able to say okay well I'm going to search for the right
sources that are not toxic because I'm going to hear these things anyway and
that then that's kind of you know that's kind of my that that's my strategy to some
degree in in in doing the channel is look you're going to hear a lot about these things whether it's attacking the
Latter-Day Saints or whether it is political issues or whether it's um Interfaith issues or anything
else let's talk about it in in a civil Manner and in a way that uh um at least
there's an awareness you make your own decision on it but at least there's some Awareness on these things yeah I think
uh I think it's important that you know I that these people and and they know who they are
I've given enough information out there that they can figure out who I'm talking about is I I just ask you just just look
in the mirror and say okay am I really doing the Lord's work is this really the
spirit or is this my ego is this works I think a lot of this that they're very work spaced um they don't have a lot of
Grace in their lives and so they feel this need that they have to save people I've got to save the Lost no you don't
got to do nothing you allow the word Lord to work through you that's the work not the work you do it's the Lord
working through you and I think so often these people want think that the work they're doing is somehow they they're
going to save people like no you're my God is much bigger than whether you're what you can or can't do um God God
knows who his children are and so I just feel like you know you're you're making
you're making a nice income um you have a lot to lose by not doing what you're
doing but just ask yourself you know what what are my motivations why why am I doing this why do I feel this need to
go into Utah and attack a people group try to undermine their their institutions try to um make fun of in
many cases they make fun some of the some of these forums some of the stuff that people send me it's just so sickening to me and sad so for those of
you the haters out there the people that think that you know the Mormons are of the devil and and that they they they
try to make Joseph Smith into this satanic character and and they want to and then they want to demonize these
people these these good people what do you honestly think you can possibly accomplish because the reality of the
situation is is that all these Latter-Day Saints if and when they even just see you outside doing your things
or or see the materials that you put out they will look at and say I don't want to have if I I will tell you this if I
were to leave my church I will never join their church so really what are you accomplishing now of course there will
be one or two people say well I read this book and I became an Evel Christian but that's the 1% of the 99% that are
paying no attention to you and heading straight for atheism and I think that's they're they got to own that too so I
just think you know what what is what is your role what are you trying to accomplish I just want the Lord to
operate through my life and I want Jesus people to see Jesus operational in my life and I want people to see the fruits of the spirit operational and I'll just
ended it this Greg I said you know for all those of you that don't like me and
are attacking me and asking me these questions about that that are just so
stupid even the questions themselves the way they're formulated is just ridiculous I love
you and you are fellow image Bears okay and I am concerned about you
I'm concerned about what this is doing to your soul I'm concerned about what this is doing to your life because when you have
all that in you it has to do a lot of damage to you too maybe you feel really
good when you have a debate and I sure scored some points and boy we sure showed them you know that's not the
spirit that's your ego okay just remember that are you I see this is the problem I with a lot of
these people is that they use this up here they don't use the heart and this is operating in the flesh when all you
are doing is using your your your brain and your intellect and and your ability to make great arguments and do all this
kind of stuff you're actually operating in the flesh primarily and again God gave us one of the most you know the most complex instrument in the universe
the human brain don't get me wrong but if you rely totally on that and you lose touch with the spirit and lose touch
with the heart issues you need I I I'm saying right now you're you're operating in the FL
and you need to repent of that great appreciate it well Stephen appreciate you appreciate your friendship
appreciate what you're doing and the work you do and and uh you know we still haven't even met in person yet these times on Zoom together we've never met
in person you're all the way back East right well I'm I'm in Florida yeah so uh yeah and and just so you know I will be
speaking at the same we will finally meet because you and I are keynote speakers at the firm foundations Book of
Mormon Expo oh you're speaking there awesome I you I'm on the top with you now they just put me in there uh I right
next I think I think quake's in between you and I if I'm not mistaken but but uh basically I'm going to be the opening
night 7 PM uh keynote speaker at the uh firm foundation conference and so we'll
meet hopefully that weekend uh while you're because you're speaking at it and uh yeah it's it's a beautiful thing I'm
going to be going to uh general conference for the Church of Jesus Christ in managa hillo Pennsylvania uh
the bicker tonights uh and then that that next week then I'm flying out to Utah to do that and then I'll be flying
hopefully on the 20th of April I'll be flying into Independence Missouri to speak out a book of Mormon rally so you
know I just love this world to I'm in and I love the people of the restoration you guys are so awesome and you're so
loving and you open doors for me when I go to Utah I don't have to pay for any meals I often don't have to pay for any hotel rooms I have houses to stay with
beautiful wonderful fantastic people even my two Jewish friends that got the tour from from Monica last week they're
like these people are so nice and they're just wonderful people I'm like yeah that's the point and I I'll leave
it at this Greg I I was talk I remember I was talking to David Boyce about this and Greg and other evangelicals as well
I said you know the the the beauty that we the place that we are the the privileged place we get to be in is that
we as Outsiders as people who are not part of the latter State St tradition unlike all the other Protestant and
Evangelical critics of the of of Mormonism we have the unique position
place to be in to see the pearls of the rest restoration and they're not going to just they're not going to L Saints
are not going to show those pearls to the haters but they share them with us
once you've seen the pearls of the restoration you can't unsee them right appreciate that Stephen well uh until
April then we'll see you then looking forward to it homie love your brother thanks
right all right great well that was
good [Music] oh
