Fixing God - Codependency's Need To Fix

codependency cwic show mental health therapy May 25, 2021

"Codependent Discipleship"

"What is Codependency?"

Nick Galieti and Jennifer Roach discuss their book, Codependent Discipleship. We discuss the interrelationship of codependency with God and with the church, as well as codependency with others.

Codependency can be a type of counterfeit charity. Those with codependency "need" others to need them and then much of their purpose becomes to fix others or situations. Guilt, punishment, and insecurity can all play a role with codependency.

Codependent Discipleship- Get the book! - https://amzn.to/3vk0eWh

Raw Transcript

the atonement didn't come about to make

feel guilty right and

on top of that it did not require a

victim if we look at christ as a victim

then we're putting something on him that

he didn't choose

and then thinking if we're to be like

christ

then that's the version of love we need

to mimic

we need to lose in order for other

people to win

[Music]

all right welcome to quick show i am

your host greg matson i am with authors

jennifer roach

and nick gilletti who have recent

recently uh

authored the book co-dependent

discipleship

i want to open up with this guys uh you

open up in your book

by quoting section 88

in the doctrine and covenants 8891 which

says and all things shall be in

commotion

and surely men's hearts shall fail them

for fear shall come upon all people

now this is a book about mental health

are you applying

uh the scripture here and saying that

men's hearts shall fail them

and fear shall come upon them to a kind

well to our current circumstances where

it seems to be that mental health is

kind of exploding on the scene anxiety

and depression

are increasing is this

uh a prophecy of of our time and what we

see today you know i

i would say i haven't had my

conversation with either yurum or thumb

lately

okay so i'm not i'm not offering

prophecy or interpretation thereof

but it does seem to be an apt descriptor

some of what we are seeing in the world

and particularly

the way that people are manifesting this

does come through the channels of

mental health so that scripture to me

felt like it was appropriate to share

because when you're talking about um any

scripture

it could be how god sees it or it could

be how

man sees it and that's just seemed like

a really good descriptor of how we as

mortals would resonate with what we see

around us in this time

and it's not an end of day's prophecy

but it is certainly like i said a good

description of

the way that at least someone in a

mental health and particularly a

codependent

mentality might be feeling and looking

at the world

i think it's very apt um

what you focus on in the book is is

codependency this is something that i

i was not familiar with with look before

looking at the book

what is codependency yeah so

codependency

is uh you could roughly call it a mental

health condition

however it's not an official diagnosis

it's not in the dsm

which is the kind of book that

therapists and psychologists use to

diagnose

mental health disease so it's not that

it's more like a syndrome

it's a collection of symptoms that work

together to produce an effect

and the effect is um

loss of agency more unhappiness um

having your life driven by other

people's agendas being acted upon

instead of being the one

acting it actually the the word actually

comes out of the um

alcoholics anonymous community started

literally to describe people who were

the partner

of someone dependent on alcohol they

were a co-dependent

and um not in not in a helpful way

in a way that actually takes away some

of the consequences

of that addiction so that the addict

themselves didn't have to face it as

much

they the codependent is kind of the one

who rushes in and solves all their

problems

for them the end result being they can

carry on in their addiction

the definition has morphed and changed

since then they're like there's no one

body who says this is what it is

um one definition that i really like is

it's referred to as the lost self

you you are not acting as yourself

you're acting kind of on other people's

agendas

okay so so co-dependency then

because when i first hear it like i

think about interdependence

is my first thought right it's like okay

you're you're you're dependent in a

relationship on each other but it's

it's healthy this is not a healthy thing

right co-dependence is not a healthy

thing

i i want to go over something that you

you have here in the book that i'm going

to quote from the book on

on a little bit of a descriptor here of

codependency it says codependency is

typically defined by a distinct set

of compulsive behaviors that includes

fixing other people's problems taking on

the burdens of others

or managing the consequences that arise

from the actions misdeeds tragedies

or trials of others for whom they feel

responsible

i mean superficially you could say well

isn't that just being a good human being

right

what what is the line between say for

example

being responsible and

and being codependent with those around

you

i'll start with that and i know

jennifer's got some great thoughts on

that

um the word compulsively is a real

key determining factor in deciding what

is codependent and what's otherwise

a healthy rational behavior for for

expressing love or care for someone when

say that something's compulsive we

clearly mean that

it's nothing that per a person has a

choice over they kind of just

do it and they don't know how to

function outside of that much like if

someone was having a chemical dependency

this is a process addiction this is

something where someone

has a need to

to fix other people and to take away

their consequences think of it

some people might even say a helicopter

parent is a term

that might be more familiar to people

where they're constantly striving to

to pull away all the different ways that

someone could be hurt

because if they get hurt then that

becomes another thing they have to fix

and it becomes unmanageable because what

you're doing is not freely chosen

and and again it feels a little

irrational maybe to some people to look

at it that way but

that's kind of the point it is a

compulsive irrational kind of response

yeah it's this idea that unless you can

freely say no to someone

can you actually freely say yes to them

if yes is the assumed answer

every time you're asked for something

and saying no is

going to cause problems what does your

yes actually mean

so when we're looking at codependency

we're looking at the person who is

compelled

to say yes and couldn't say no even if

they needed

to it's a feeling that you're required

to help every single time you're asked

matter what is actually going on in your

life

it's not being able to put up boundaries

with people even

people who might be doing you harm that

that's not um that's not patience and

long suffering to put up with someone

who's actually

like abusing you or harming you in some

way that can be codependency

another version of it is

the person whose own anxiety drives them

to be solving other people's problems

because other people's problems seem

easier to solve to them right i got

problems in my life

they're complicated they're taking me a

long time to work on um

but your problems are nothing like i can

manage your problems no

no sweat but that's not really true

i i can't manage i can't manage your

problems your problems are complex to

you

but it could make me feel better to

swoop in

and kind of save you from the

consequences of your bad choices so that

that's what we're getting at for

codependence

would that also be something that where

someone is afraid of their own problems

right facing themselves and so

it's easier to say well i know i'm

supposed to be doing right i'm supposed

to be doing something

let me go outside of myself and help

somebody else instead

yeah in um so i'm a mental health

therapist in my work

i see this a lot clients who are just

individuals who can't sit inside their

own head

for five minutes because they're too

overwhelmed by their own anxiety

and so they're not actively engaged in

making the world a better place because

that's what the heavenly father has on

the agenda for them that day

they're actively engaged in just trying

to quiet their own anxiety

so we'd be looking at this then as as

you say a compulsive behavior

let me bring this up here you you you

you say this in the book it says

codependency is like

regulating someone else's life and

chaotic emotions

and expecting your life to get calmer

okay is there a sense that controlling

or fixing another person's situation

will bring calm to this person well it's

complicated because

there's a sense in which that actually

works

for the person like if you have um

that you're assigned to minister to

someone and they have all kinds of needs

that you

are driven that you feel compulsed to

solve their problems for them

you're going to get a little temporary

dopamine hit in your brain

for being helpful to them it's socially

acceptable they're going to be grateful

your church leaders are going to be

proud of you

like there's lots of stuff built around

it that's gonna feel great that's why

people do it

but at the expense of their own selves

it works short term it doesn't work long

term and if i could add to that

real quick um one of the my side of this

is the

experiential i this is my life this is

how i've kind of had to deal with things

through a series of my own life events

and

from my personal experience one of the

things that

is key here first of all we're not

trying to make angels and demons here

right

there's people are very complex and at

various

stages in kind of a spectrum here but

one of the things that i found in my

life

was that i tied my value very much to

how i

how many people i fixed so if there was

a situation where perhaps

what i was wanting to uh if i started to

feel like i wasn't

a good person if i went and fixed

someone else then i thought

okay at least i'm a good person in that

if i'm a bad father maybe i should go

out and try and help

minister to other people's families

because maybe if i can fix other

people's families

i'm not going to be such a bad father or

maybe people won't look at me as a bad

father

there just becomes a lot of complex

and really under the surface reasons why

we may

do something or feel compulsive

you know urges or attending anxiety

if we don't do those things and so it's

really hard to see from the surface it's

not something that you should

kind of casually diagnose on someone and

say that

that person right there is codependent

you may be able to

but just because you sneeze doesn't mean

you have a cold and

and some of the things that we're

talking about might resonate on micro

levels but it doesn't mean you are

a co-dependent person is this something

that is in line with

a clinical uh diagnosis then of say ocd

um no so ocd

that the similarity there that you're

picking up on is the

the c the compulsion part of ocd

but in ocd that's repeated tasks

that are intended to quiet down the oh

the obsession

so the classic example is someone who

has to wash their hands exactly 47 times

why are they doing that well they're

doing it

because they have some anxiety and the

anxiety only gets

assuaged after 47 hand washings

it it it's a that's part of codependency

you're doing one behavior to to get rid

of some anxiety

not at the same level as ocd um and it's

it's working with a little bit different

function than ocd is because what comes

to my mind

is is is you know

the non-clinical uh

diagnosis of control freak right

yeah it can be okay it's like because

that's oftentimes someone who who is

ocd or what we would say at least

culturally you know

yeah i've got ocd you know it is someone

who's very much

they need control of the situation maybe

that

spills out over into their entire

environment therefore it's relationships

also

in needing to control and fix those that

that are around them that's that's what

kind of comes to my mind yeah

one of our favorite examples is the a

person on social media

who feels compelled to correct

everyone else on their opinions right

the the

well actually um blah blah blah

and and like maybe they're doing it to

look smart but

maybe there's a motivation in there that

says oh i've got to save this person

from their wrong opinion

and save anybody who could potentially

be reading them from from their wrong

opinion and you could just

make yourself create like there's no end

to what you will find on the

on social media of opinions you could

correct

and so it can just stack and spin out of

control for folks

you had mentioned that this had come out

of alcoholics anonymous right these some

of these terms and

and the ideas behind this what how is

this

how is this on the other side of that

you're talking about actually helping to

fix an alcoholic

but how how is this itself an

addictive behavior well it's addictive

in the same way that

any behavior that can feel good is

addictive right if you

do a pro-social action

your brain is going to release chemicals

dopamine and endorphins and all the

feel-good stuff

and it's intended that way your brain is

trying to get you to repeat

behaviors that feel good so it gives you

a chemical marker a

happiness marker that says do this again

it's good

and there's a lot of dopamine that can

be released in your brain when you're

helping people

it's not the same addictive quality as

something like

alcohol or street drugs would be right

that's going to give you

a whole stew of chemicals at a much

higher level

but this is enough for some people to to

get the feelings of

oh i need to continue correcting people

i need to continue always saying yes

just so that my brain can get the little

chemical hit and be happy

how does well how might

guilt play a role in motivation for this

i i would say that my experience is

guilt

feels very similar to anxiety to the

person that has codependency

it's guilt with urgency and and so

when you talk about um like

there was a time in my life that um my

wife had depression for 13 years i was a

real estate agent in 2008

and was which is terrible time to do

that anxious time

exactly i was i had no income

we were losing our house there was

postpartum depression

on top of regular depression and

i found that my world as that scripture

at the beginning described was in

chaos and i felt that my heart was

failing me because

my identity was wrapped up as i'm the

provider

if i'm a good faithful latter-day saint

that pays their tithing

shouldn't i have my temporal needs

managed and taken care of and yet all of

these things

were falling apart around me and

one could honestly say yeah that sounds

kind of urgent

you know if you're losing your house you

need money right there's there's a time

kind of connected to it but the guilt

that came with that was i'm failing as a

father

i'm failing as a husband because if i

was a good husband my wife wouldn't be

depressed

and certain toxic thoughts certain

thought distortions creep

in and cause an anxiety and an urgency

to that anxiety that goes

i need to fix something somewhere

to so that i feel that i have value to

anyone because right now my family life

is failing

my fiscal life is failing and in some

ways you could say my spiritual life

became the only place where i might

have had a chance to influence someone

for good and feel

value so the anxiety became

i need to feel xyz i need to feel

that i have value so i'm going to go

be extra spiritual i'm going to go do

extra home teaching i'm going to visit

more people than anybody else or

whatever it was so a codependent's going

to kind of try and reach out

to wherever they feel they can fix

something so that they

calm a little piece of what's going on

calm a little of the chaos

but also to feel that they have value

and

you become so desperate to feel that

that the the addiction is such that

even if you do get a little little fix

like any other addiction that fix needs

to grow in order for it to have value

and meaning in your life so

you need to start fixing more people you

need to start doing more things

in order to have that baseline i'm a

good person

and so it can drive you and very

interesting and

perhaps again from the outside

irrational ways

yet the the reason that we talk about

codependent discipleship

is that there are unique ways within our

faith tradition

where sometimes we place

responsibilities and burdens on

ourselves

as a scapegoat as a way to

fix any of those pains that we might be

feeling

and maybe even encourage people to say

if this is happening then this will

solve it

so in my mind i've heard a thousand

stories

of people that get up and say i paid my

tithing and miraculously

a thousand dollars ended up in my bank

account and i was able to make all my

bills

and then we start to equate well if i'm

not

if i'm paying tithing and i'm not

getting a thousand dollars in my bank

account and i'm not hitting

some spiritual marker therefore i need

to try

and up my spiritual game so that i'm i'm

at a place where god has to bless me

there's no way around it he has to

because i'm this righteous as opposed

to this righteousness and and so

sometimes again we

we equate things and we maybe perhaps

even interpret scriptures

culturally in a way that can feed that

and i'd say globally though codependents

still look for the same things

we just sometimes in our faith tradition

look towards our faith to do that

so let me let me let me interject there

a little bit so let's just say

right any of us because i've gone

through this too i mean you

go through a time of difficulty in your

life i mean my first inclination

and i think it's the right inclination

to turn to god

right and to uh

take an accounting of my life maybe

where am i spiritually and and and

what am i doing and and maybe there are

some

[Music]

voids there somewhere right that maybe i

should be addressing

again how do i entangle that between

what you're saying

in in a codependent uh

um compulsive behavior and entangle that

with what

might be a natural righteous spiritual

reaction

yeah to anxiety and depression in my

life the codependent way to do that is

you do it in such a way that you're

almost trying to force god's hand

if i check all the boxes then god will

bless me

right you're you're almost treating god

in this codependent kind of way

um instead of saying there's some things

in my life i need to fix

and rather blessings follow that or they

don't i still need to fix them because i

have this relationship the spiritual

motivation

does that make sense yeah

it it does in the sense you know again i

still i still

i i understand what you're saying i

guess what i'm fishing for a little bit

here is

um right if there there's there's

certain blessings

that are they're predicated on certain

commandments so to speak and so

maybe i'm looking for that um maybe i'm

expecting that i i

kind of feel like i should expect

blessings

yeah i want to i want to expect

blessings

i think i should and and yet at the same

time

um you know i guess i'm trying to to to

divide between

what would be a righteous desire there

and a proper

hope so to speak and i think that that

where some of the complexity lies and

where

no book or podcast interview can fully

diagnose

the intricacies of how you got to where

you're at

in your life and maybe why you're

thinking the way you are

um or for for anyone for that matter

but to kind of get at and i think you're

trying to get to is how

how do we not treat god like

the feel-good vending machine how do we

not look at god as the blessings vending

machine

in times of trial and sorrow and stress

i think it's important to understand

that what we're talking about here is

the nature of a relationship

and how an individual views other people

you don't have to be code you you don't

have to be

codependent with something that is

dependent that's how it originally

started

but the the way that codependency is

used nowadays is it describes rather a

relationship

from one person to another person or to

a thing

even to god in some ways so the

the nature of the relationship to god in

that situation

is such where you are viewing god

in a way as to you're here to calm

my anxiety you're here to

fix something for me it's very

transactional

and not very relational in the sense of

it's not about faith at that point it's

about

a spiritual bank account where you're

cashing in your chips

and there's an expectation that you have

on god

and if for whatever reason god chooses

in his infinite wisdom and love

to not bless you in the way that you've

demanded that he bless you

that you're going to see that

relationship is broken you may even have

a faith crisis

and deny the existence of god because he

didn't bless you the way that you wanted

him to bless you but i was righteous

enough why didn't he bless me

well there may be other reasons but it's

so hard to

pick apart that in the moment because of

that anxiety because of that

sense of urgency that we need the

blessing now because we're calming

something in us that isn't based on

faith if there is a faith there we trust

god

to be there when we need him so as a

part of this then

this behavior this this thought process

this uh need a

it sounds like what you're explaining is

often what is kind of what you've been

explaining before

about those around you it's this

innate desire to fix

right yeah yeah the desire for a

specific

outcome without sort of holding that

loosely like in the example with god

being able to say god is god and

maybe i get the extra thousand dollars

in my account and maybe i don't

it here here's my here's maybe my best

example

a young man takes a young lady out for

dinner for their first date and he's

hoping

he's hoping for a kiss at the end of

that date there's nothing wrong with

that hope

right but if she feels that as pressure

well i bought you dinner i deserve a

little lip

um it ain't gonna happen right like that

like everything just got destroyed it's

if she can't freely um lean into that

or freely not the whole thing is ruined

right it's the

it's the pressure and the expectation

that's exactly yeah okay that that helps

a lot that says exactly what that nick

was saying in the terms of a transaction

versus the relationship you know that

makes a lot of sense okay so we've moved

into the spiritual side of things

here's another quote and this is a

little bit longer but i want to parse

this out a little bit

talking about charity you say charity is

divine

and universal love charity is not

a vehicle for guilt or punishment

nor is charity a drug used to numb the

pains of mortality

yet there are times where we have

extended acts of service

as the means of making ourselves feel

better

or as some sort of hope that by fixing

someone else

we are hoping to fix ourselves

toward the beginning of that quote again

charity is not a vehicle for

guilt or punishment

you're reacting to something here right

in in your writing here as as

your experiences in therapy i'm guessing

or your personal experiences nick

what do you mean by that charity is not

a vehicle for

guilt or punishment

do you want to take that one nick uh

sure sure

um so

there's also a quote a little later on

that that may be

kind of the bookend to this and that is

that

love doesn't require a victim

and so what we're talking about here is

understanding that the pure love of

christ

it does the atonement didn't come about

to make us feel guilty right

and on top of that

it did not require a victim if we look

at christ as a victim

then we're putting something on him that

he didn't choose

and then thinking if we're to be like

christ

then that's the version of love we need

to mimic

we need to lose in order for other

people to win

we need to um manipulate

someone by forcing them to feel

guilt to forcing them to feel some kind

of loss

as a vehicle for love and i know that

that can that sounds a little

conflated and and hopefully we can parse

that out a little bit more but

the idea there again is that charity is

where both

are benefited both are are uplifted

um and both are benefited by the

interaction

by the relationship

when you love someone with the pure love

of christ your aim

isn't to make them feel guilty about

something

your aim is to if they feel guilt

would be that they under it's simply an

understanding of

an error but our job is not to impose

guilt it is to help them see and travel

the path to self-improvement and

i think that sometimes we see this with

parenting

um we're a parent oh i love my child i

have charity for my child

but we often feel that the way to get

them to change their behavior

is by making them feel guilty we need to

lay out all the terms as to where they

were wrong

because they need to feel guilty first

before they can change

maybe there's a better teaching method

and i believe the charity

loves and invites them into better

behavior rather than guilts them into it

would you would you say that you know we

were talking previously here

then that guilt is a personal motivation

for someone with codependency also

not just that you're trying to lay it on

to somebody else so is that kind of just

kind of

putting out maybe the way i act as a

person where i'm acting out of guilt

myself

that i would i would project that to

somebody else

it can one one helpful

distinction here might be between guilt

and shame

guilt is simply here's the thing you did

wrong

you drove 20 miles over the speed limit

it doesn't actually mean

you're bad you're wrong you're you're

anything it means here's a

behavior that you did shame says there

is something wrong inside of me and i

have got to fix it

right and so shane gets played out in

codependency when we're actually

trying to kind of outsource the fixing

trying to fix somebody else to

soothe our shame when when really

it it's us that needs fixing up them

okay um also in that quote

toward the end here uh

there are times where we have extended

acts of service

as the means of making ourselves feel

better or as some sort of hope

that by fixing someone else we are

hoping to fix ourselves

how does this apply to uh

to our church callings how does this

apply to

to operating within the church

i would say that for me one of the

reasons that

codependency is really complex is that

the same actions in one person versus

another

one person it could be codependent and

the other person it could not be because

there's

the act itself may not be the wrong

thing it may be why we're doing it

so in the case of what we're saying here

if we go into an act of service if we go

into

maybe moving someone on saturday morning

out of their house or into their house

or whatever active service we're doing

if the idea is my home is such a mess

and that my life is such chaos that the

only time that i'm going

to feel any control or any

value or goodness in my life is when i'm

out doing an act of service i'm going to

abandon

everything else and i'm going to go to

that

that saturday morning move in and i'm

gonna go help someone

because i really need to feel like i'm

doing something good in the world

and so it's not saying that doing

acts of service can't result

in you having good feelings and feeling

like hey that was a good thing

i having a confirmation of the spirit

even

that what you did was good that's

fantastic

but it's is that why you're doing it

and a codependent will often look

outside themselves to fix the inside

and that's what we're talking about here

is is that your main goal

can can having that feeling and doing so

much for others to try and fix

them is that something that could

i mean i would imagine could impede

that other person's progress spiritual

progress

absolutely if you are if you are

fixing somebody else's life all the time

you're not giving them the opportunity

to fix their life if you're swooping in

saving them at the last moment like that

might feel

great for you um but they didn't learn

how to solve their problem all they

learned how to do was rely on somebody

else to solve their problem

um it it steals the opportunity of

growth from them

because it seems to me like if that like

like nick was saying it's it's the

reason

that you're doing it the motivation

behind it

that seems to have a lot to do with

uh you know i mean i don't know

metaphysically right spiritually it's

it's that has to do with

who you are and the relationship that

you're creating with that person you're

helping

and i i would add to that in this

particular sense that we are talking

again about something that is

really hard to see on the surface um

it's

it's tends to be something that you have

to kind of grapple with

on the inside but

as as it sits again thinking about um

codependency

in the way that we've talked about it

let's add this other layer of the fact

that we're talking about things that are

over responsibility and that means

in some cases fixing things that are not

in your responsibility like

obviously when you have a five-year-old

kid

they're kind of dependent on you and

that's a natural and understandable

area where there is some dependency and

where

you might say codependency becomes very

easy or probable

because of that relationship where you

start to feel like

i am the parent i have to fix what they

do wrong if they break someone's window

i got to pay for it and and so we're not

talking about

those types of relationships we're

talking about

the relationship where you are

over responsible for things that you are

not really responsible for and when we

talk about

fixing other people's problems we're not

speaking about

the autistic kid that you have to care

for

we understand that that's natural and

it's complicated and difficult

this is more i am a ministering brother

and i got this guy that i'm ministering

to who isn't active in the church who

isn't coming

to church meetings or participating in

any way

and saying i'm a bad ministering brother

unless that guy comes back to church

unless he somehow has a conversion while

i'm assigned to him

and starts coming back i didn't do my

job and i need to try even harder

to get the end result of that guy coming

back to church

or i'm somehow not a good ministering

brother

and we sometimes conflate

again charitable actions with

codependent actions because they can

look very similar

i want to make sure that we're clear

that we're not talking about

all acts can be codependent it's it's

what you're doing inside that really

is worth exploring and that's what the

book is about and what we're trying to

get to

well that makes sense obviously that

goes right along the lines with the

sermon on the mount for example

right it's it's exactly what christ was

saying

in terms of it's not just the act

right it's what your thoughts are it's

what your motivation is it's what your

heart is which which makes a lot of

sense

okay now i've observed this

being a lifelong member of the church uh

that sometimes

well let me ask you the question can

can we be codependent with the church

in so many ways

um one of the one of the ways that comes

to mind

is the person who feels like

they have to correct the church like

somehow they have the the guidance or

the prophecy or they've received the

direction for

the church um someone who feels like a

policy or a rule change isn't correct

like really railing against that

but you also see it interestingly enough

you see it with people who've left

the church like you know this phrase

they've left the church but they can't

leave it alone

who feel like it's this almost social

justice crusade of i have to let

everyone know

how what terrible terrible policies

these are in the church

and just like

keeps hammering that drum in a in

sort of a feigned attempt but an attempt

i'm going to save all these people who

are being deceived

and now there's on one side of that

sorry nick on one side of that there's

there's again maybe this drive to fix

based on on their paradigm right

is there at all in there because of

their psychology

a cry for help when they're doing that

at all

no comment yes to say that that's a

really hard thing to say

from a distance um to to

paint that kind of a brush on anybody is

really difficult i would say

that oftentimes when you see people

going through a

faith crisis the way that they handle it

can look like a cry for help because

they're putting out there i'm having

this faith crisis

which is not just a private thing it's

i'm making it public

because i either want people on my side

or i need people to help me

fix this dissonance that i'm feeling in

my life

and i can't do it on my own so there is

a cry for help

element to it but i'm not saying that

that is what defines a codependent act

i will say that in in back to what

jennifer was saying that the idea of a

codependent relationship with the church

needing to fix the church or people that

have left and need to save the

people you know that are in the church

there is absolutely a strain to that and

you know bring on the hate mail

but there's absolutely a strain of

codependency in that type of behavior

because you are absolutely not able to

and this is true with a lot of very

vocal anti-church

people they are they can't

function and their identity is

completely wrapped around this idea that

they are

an anti-mormon or they are a an

antagonist to the church

they they cannot function independently

of that

idea and therefore the fixing the

their identity being completely wrapped

up in it it's not just

i think this is a good idea but people

are responsible to choose for themselves

it's i i have to do this my full-time

job my

my social media personality everything

that i

pour my time and energy into is

fixing all of these errors and even

those that are still within the church

who have a major agenda

on certain policy issues can function

the same way

and i know that you've had you know

various guests on to talk about

previous therapists and some of their

outlook on church policies and so on and

i think that maybe even in a in a very

applicable way

there is a sense of codependency in

those types of relationships

because you you cannot seem to function

independently

of of that way of thinking and to allow

people the ability to

choose for themselves and it's like i

said bring on the hate mail if you want

i'm not

i'm not passing judgment i'm not

condemning anyone i'm just saying

that there seems to be certain aspects

of what we're discussing here at play

i will add this this is not a latter-day

saint problem

um i grew up outside of our church i

converted two years ago i've been in

christian churches my entire life

one of the areas where i work is

advocacy work with victims

of clergy sexual abuse so

people who as children are teenagers

were abused by some

protestant clergy member and sometimes

in that space

what you see are people who really want

to advocate for

other victims instead of

spending some years doing the work to

heal their

own broken soul over what happened

um they go they go straight into i want

to be really loud i want to

get attention on this there's nothing

wrong with that in fact it's kind of

needed

but not at the expense of the person

actually being able to heal and find

happiness this is a a religious people

problem not just a latter-day saint

problem

so again kind of almost like projecting

it out to others instead of trying to

deal with it

the the issues yourself a little bit so

sticking on this just for a minute here

you quote a a protestant pastor of the

early 20th century

harry emerson fosdick he's he says real

christians do not carry their religion

their religion carries them

back to the observation of looking at

things sometimes it

seems to me that in what we might call a

values hierarchy

we place the church even above god

if that makes sense in terms of

a relationship and an investment

and and that seems to be you know

somehow the more i invest into the

church

of maybe relationship with god i am

i am that much more dependent on what i

inside of the church does that make

sense yeah and i i can kind of see where

where you're coming from on that in the

sense of

we are as as

you say we sometimes place our emphasis

and priority on

church rather than god and that becomes

a really interesting

almost paradoxical to some people

because they place them at opposite ends

of somehow a spectrum and yet i think

my personal feeling is that god has

authorized this church to

be his the the method the plan

the administrator of the ordinances

under which

we do develop that relationship with him

i don't think that i find them to be

that

disjointed where we can place an undue

priority there

is certainly where we have abandoned the

idea that a person can have a

relationship with god

even if they don't read their scriptures

every day for 30 minutes

and do come follow me and so on

sometimes we

we unders we forget that people are on

that path

and they're at a different point in that

path and

therefore we force the church

at the level we're at onto the level

where they're at

and that may not work and so i think

sometimes

we do prioritize or emphasize the church

in ways that

isn't facilitating a relationship with

god

i don't blame the church for that and

frankly i don't blame the people for

doing that because

that's just where they're at even in a

way but

i do feel that there is um

there are times where we do understand

have our relationship with our faith

where it is the thing that is lifting us

um i think part of the quote there is is

more on the idea of not having our faith

be this

thing that we tuck in a knapsack and

carry around and is a burden that we

carry

but rather that the religion itself in

christianity

christ's gospel is designed to lift us

um and so it's it's a little less about

our relationship

with the church as much as it is about

making sure that our relationship with

the church is leading us to god

okay yeah i guess i guess for me as i

look at it i

i see the church i see a way that you

can be

codependent with the church and and

not you talk about it being on the

opposite end of the spectrum the church

over here and

and got over here i might say well they

might may not be on the opposite

opposite in the ends of the spectrum but

maybe they're not

i guess i don't see them as exactly the

same thing right in in the sense that

um i see the church as

support i see the church as a means

but i don't see the church as the end

right it's not the goal it's not the end

it is

the the end to me is the family and the

relationships we have

and our personal spiritual progress and

our relationship with god and if we're

moving toward him

and the church is there to help us

accomplish those things and so if i put

too much dependency only on the church

right that is there to support me in

that in that goal

then you know i don't know in my mind i

kind of see like well

i'm putting i i i think there has to be

a separation of value there

that's all i'm saying it seems to me

like there has to be a separation of

value

between my relationship and investment

in the church

and my relationship and investment in

god even though the church is what

supports that

does that make sense at all to you i

think i understand where you're going

with it

um i i if i'm i want to make sure i

understand what you're saying

are you saying that we might like a

therapist with me right now but that's

okay

i'm just trying to understand so it

sounds to me like you're using the

analogy of

i'm in los angeles and i need to get to

new york

i can walk there but if i have a car

i'll obviously get there much faster

safer and

all those kinds of things and for you

we're in l.a god is in new york the

church is the car

is that i would say it would be the

other way around as far as la new york

but that's that's okay but totally

totally understand um i wouldn't even

put new york on the map

but that's a whole nother issue um so

the idea though is is we're seeing it as

a vehicle

to get us from point a to point b is

that how you're viewing it well the only

difference i would say is that there is

only one way to get there so the car

would be if the car was the only way to

get there

then yeah i would see it that way and

that it was sanctioned and

built and created by god for us to get

to him

okay and we could choose whether or not

to get in the club exactly or not

exactly there you go

and and i think that that if if we're

going to play with that analogy a little

bit

um we might say that codependency looks

like you trying to shove

everybody you can in the car and then

you getting behind the car and pushing

that makes sense so so

thinking like i'm gonna fill this car up

and i'm gonna push it

is essentially saying god didn't build a

very good motor

or there's no fuel in the tank so i have

to push it

that's where codependency comes in when

it comes to your relationship

to the faith if that metaphor works and

jennifer's probably going

let me think about that i'll say but

but that'd be probably the best way that

i could describe it

interesting okay you bring up

lehi's words of to act and to be acted

upon

and this is a theme that i have found as

i've gone

in the last six weeks or so here of of

of talking with other therapists and and

kind of where the industry

therapy is going and how much does

victimhood

play a role in in codependency

on both creating a victim that you need

to help perhaps

and being a victim yourself or having a

victimhood mentality yourself

you can't see it because my hands are

off the screen but it matters this much

okay yeah the

the whole idea that um some kind of

status comes with victimhood it's some

kind of

special category that should receive um

it's special privileges in some way it

just it's baffling to me as a therapist

um people come to therapy when they're

ready to come to therapy

they come because they're trying to get

out of

of being a victim your your life can be

a lot better than thinking of yourself

as oh gosh i just have to say yes to all

these things like

um it's not a great way to live

i don't know if i'm answering your

question um

we said that before that love doesn't

require a victim

but yet the most of the social causes

most of the

people that are victims of some system

um their war cry is

love and yet at the same time they're

what they're saying is i am a victim

you must love me or

you are a bigot you are a racist you are

this you are this so they're setting up

the terms

under which they can essentially be

loved as a victim

or they are creating another situation

where someone can come and save them so

that they feel that same

hit what one of the examples i use a lot

with people in therapy is

it's kind of like if there's a big wind

storm

and your neighbor's tree falls onto your

property and

smashes your roof smashes part of your

house

your neighbor's responsible for that

they they they bear the responsibility

it was their tree

that fell but you're still the one who

has to get your house fixed

you're still the one whose stuff all

just got wet because it got rained on

you're still the one who

maybe you got a physical it may maybe

the tree fell on you and broke your leg

you're still the one who has to go to

physical therapy

other people might be responsible for

hurting you but you are responsible for

your own

healing not outside of community not in

isolation not without help

but but you're the one who has to move

away

from the being hurt and towards

wholeness that's the whole point of

therapy

okay again i'm going back to the idea of

motive and what's in your mind and

what's in your heart i

i based on what you're saying there i

still think that

talking about someone who is grabbing on

to victimhood

looking for love in a

in not a healthy way as is what you're

saying

is still in some regard a cry for help

it seems to me right it's a super

ineffective cry for help

if you want help there's better ways to

get help i think that's what we're

trying to say

yeah i'm just i'm referring to president

oak's talk at byu maybe a month ago

where he was you know he's talking about

the george floyd thing the black lives

matter and all these things going on and

how many of these people when we look

that are are a lot of it

he says look it is he thinks a cry for

help in some regards

to some degree maybe it's not effective

it's probably not motivated properly

it's not healthy but

i i do think in some ways maybe we can

look at that as is a little bit

of of a cry for help now

we're becoming much more of a a as you

were saying our society

here in in the us especially and in the

west a little bit overall

we're victims we're becoming more and

more a society of victimhood

and where we're placing a higher and

higher degree of value on being a victim

and this in fact even gives us status

we can we can look at intersectionality

in the totem pole of

of where our victimhood is standing

and compare ourselves to others and

wonder well i need more value i need

more love

and and therefore how do i create higher

levels of victimhood in myself to be

able to get there does this mean

if we're tying these together in some

regard victimhood and codependency

that as a nation in the u.s and maybe

more broadly in the west we're becoming

as a society more

co-dependent

i think so um i i would say that i think

we're kind of programmed that way

and part of that comes from like for

example i'm not going to rail on this

from one side or the other but pick a

news station

pick one of the major news stations and

watch it

and watch it with the idea of who's the

victim

that they're talking about and who's

responsible to fix it

now it's it's not something that i

i encourage because it's disheartening

it's a painful experience and as a

co-dependent it really

makes my you know it kind of triggers me

a little bit which is the idea right

that

i think that people need to feel good

about themselves that's kind of an

inherent almost human thing

and i think that some of these news

programs for example

will spend all of their time we might be

talking about negative stories

they're really stories of some victim

somewhere and it could be a big group of

victims

or it could be a small group of victims

but they're all victims

because that means that someone did

something to them and so when you're

trying to review

how that relationship is like i said

watch the news see who the victim is and

who's responsible to fix it

and by and large everyone's a victim and

everyone's responsible to fix

it that's why when you're talking about

a war in the middle east between two

different countries

all of a sudden we as americans go we

need to have an opinion on this

we need to do something about it why

those two countries are the ones

fighting it is their battle

they've chosen for some way or another

to get into that fight

it is not our fight and it doesn't mean

that you know and here's what the war

cry will be

almost by programming but if we do

nothing

we're as guilty as the people involved

no we're not and that's the lie and so

but you'll hear from the news stories

this politician isn't taking a stand on

this or this politician did

and you're instantly required to have an

opinion on it

it's it's it's programming us to always

have an opinion about everything

and that opinion is how are we going to

fix it

and ultimately that is what every social

cause right now can probably be boiled

down to

and where every narrative that you see

out there

is based on this idea of i'm a victim

come save me and if you're not

eventually you're gonna hear

i'm not doing anything i'm not doing

enough i'm a bad person so i'm gonna

have to figure out some cause to jump

onto

so that i put that guilt away so i

personally and i'm not a therapist

and i'm certainly not at liberty to

paint a broad brush on every person

but i would say that this is an issue

that i see growing

and i see that the programming of the

world is such that it will continue to

increase

because it continues to get power it

continues to have control

and every person continues to become

dependent

on what's the next crisis what's the

thing that i can do where there's

someone i can save

and i need to quickly post about it oh

this this group

has been bullied i need to quickly post

about it because otherwise i'm not a

good person

and it gets to be overwhelming and

people will break down

they will go into depressions on the

rise wonder why

things like that become much more

the cause and effect makes much more

sense to me

when i can view it in the lens of

codependency because of the victimhood

thing that you just mentioned

it's a terrible situation for actual

victims because what it sets up is this

idea that if you can

get public attention that's what solves

what's what's wrong with you because

you've been hurt um

my picture has been on the front page of

my hometown newspaper

probably one dozen times um in regards

to the sexual abuse that i experienced

at the church where i grew up

the very first time that happened um

the next day like like what like what

did they say like

what's the line from newsies like today

it's the newspaper tomorrow you're

wrapping up fish with it like

the next day it's gone they're on to

some other story they're

that's not gonna heal you if you're a a

person who's actually suffered something

you have to do

the work that takes decades it's done in

private it's done very quietly it's hard

it's not getting your

face on the front page of the paper

ain't hard

i mean if we look at codependency and

and that rising up in in society what

that

also goes back to is saying well if i

need to fix everything

and and we and yet we've put a higher

level of of

status on victimhood then when someone

say for example

because we're going more toward that

direction starts having more

microaggressions right or or is

triggered by microaggressions

because it's more and more okay this

little thing i'm another i'm a victim

again

right i'm a victim i'm a victim on this

and then we facilitate that

it's a little addicting for some people

yeah i mean

when we facilitate it it's just it's

just giving more and more rise

to that status it seems yeah

and it doesn't help actual victims that

is not what heals you

okay how does codependency relate to

social media

um i i don't know if you've what's the

name of that movie that came out on

netflix the social well i'm trying to

remember what it is there was a movie

social network um not the social network

not about the creation of facebook but

kind of this dilemma

if you watch that again but with the

idea of codependency it'll stick out a

lot more because what they're doing

is they're creating a dependency on

their platform

and so when something is dependent on

you

which their entire business model is

dependent on you

interacting with them on a regular basis

they have to do whatever is necessary to

create that dependency

and it's a great business model in the

sense that it's very successful and

if they are able to convince everybody

that they cannot function without them

that's fantastic but again if you'll

notice

by by platform you will see some people

splintering off to different platforms

based on

how much they feel that that platform

needs them for example

i spend more time now on instagram

because i like to just see

pictures i don't like to get into

debates i don't like to get into the

long comment sections and

all the problems the second i flip over

to facebook

it is this politician's an idiot for

what they believe

it's this social problem happened

oh look at the coveted problems in india

look at this

war you could probably go through your

feed

and count at least 12 issues daily

that someone is putting out there as the

thing that you need to have an opinion

and your opinion may just fix the

problem

nobody's opinion is going to fix the

problem but the whole platform is based

on people thinking it will

and and so that that's my personal take

on it i know it sounds a little bitter

and kind of you know i don't i i'm on

social media

so it's not like i'm trying to trash it

completely i'm just saying that i do

believe that

many people interact with it in a way

that promotes

this codependency well of course

manifesting that codependency

it seems to me on social media would be

i i again i'm i'm making sure i

i'm putting out the right words you know

is what's often called virtue signaling

i'm putting that out there

i'm getting the love back and and uh

um by expressing my opinion on

everything i'm helping to fix it

and cancel culture can be another

manifestation of that not always

but it can be it could be this person

said something

that i don't agree with but i think that

their statement is so negative and so

harmful

to other people that i need to make a

campaign i need to absolutely

pour all my weight into making sure that

everybody i know

doesn't ever pay attention to that

person again and that they have

you know no chance of working again in

the industry that i love

or whatever it might be when you think

about that you go

name a perfect person everybody says or

does something

that's going to upset someone if you you

can't

constantly be exercising

something from your life just because

they've said something you don't agree

with but it becomes

again more than that the idea that we

need to absolutely shut someone down

you know this isn't a political legal

thing sure you have the right to do it

i'm not saying you don't have the right

to do it

but i'm saying is it the right thing to

do is it the healthiest way can you just

not

you know watch that television show

that's produced by the guy that molested

people

can you just not watch the cosby

routines anymore

you know can you can you just not do

those things yourself

or do you absolutely feel compelled one

hundred percent

to tell everybody that they need to also

do the same thing to follow your

behavior

because your behavior is the right

behavior that's going to fix the

problems

and this will never happen again in the

future because we cancelled this last

guy

it's it's it's it's a codependent

response in my mind

so so then uh hate mail goes to i know

no so so then for example the more we

push

activism as an example that goes along

with codependency

it seems right it's saying saying i'm

going to i can it's saying it's saying

i'm going to be

more active in this because i need to be

the

solution i need to fix the problem

i think it's the level to which what

your solution

forces other people to live a certain

way

so there is nothing about the church

that is forced

right you cannot force anyone into the

celestial kingdom

they have to choose their way there

god's way is ultimately that he wants

his children to choose him to choose the

ordinances that are performed on their

behalf

to choose all of this and i think that

part of what happens with certain levels

of activism and advocacy

is this person wants to live their life

their way

now everybody needs to accept it by law

and be punished if they don't and so on

and so forth

and so it's not about letting people

choose

it's about forcing people into an

outcome and forcing them

by way of expectation of this is how i

behave i'm expecting everybody else to

behave it

and you will be forced by way of law to

do it

so that to me is the extent that that

that's

that's how i view it and that's i i'm

not sure if again i can speak on

like a clinical level to that but that's

how i view it

okay so finishing off here um

how does someone recognize codependency

in themselves

in those around them how

what it what do you do to start changing

that

and how will that affect your life

spiritually

um let me just jump right to how do you

start

changing that you press into the concept

of agency

can you actually say no is that a

legitimate choice because if it's not

then your yes is out of compulsion

god did not create us to love him out of

compulsion right that's not god's plan

um pressing pressing into that concept

um can sort a good deal of this out

especially on the spiritual level

um in our book there's sections of

questions after after every major

section that are intended

excuse me to ask for people to ask

themselves like

is this you is this going on um so

so if you if you really want to press

into that

firework on amazon and there's lots and

lots of questions in the book about it

i i can say that in myself i didn't have

the ability

to self-diagnose and i think it might be

really difficult for a codependent to

self-diagnose we can diagnose other

people like nobody's business

but self-diagnosing i think is a is a

real hard problem

because there are so many thought

distortions going on

that center around this concept and this

kind of

tag phrase when other people get better

then i can get better so

we are constantly and mostly

compulsively

wrapped around other people's problems

to the degree

that we can't see it in ourselves and

there may be even a

fair amount of self-denial in that place

because

we'll tell ourselves i'm not broken

because if i was broken i would i would

not be able to fix other people

but i'm constantly fixing other people

so i must not be broken

again it's a thought distortion type

thing so i would say maybe perhaps

if there's any parts of what we've

talked about today that has resonated

with

you personally not with oh i could see

that someone else

i could see that in that person oh my

bishop has got it loaded

if you've got a situation where any part

of it has resonated with yourself

we would encourage you aside from

getting our book and maybe taking some

of the self-assessment stuff that we

have in there

it's okay and encouraged to talk to a

mental health therapist and say

i heard this podcast and you know

the host has an amazing pink shirt and

so i'm going to listen to him

because i trust people in pink shirts

and

he said i should check out the idea of

codependency

and my own life and that therapist will

be able to

be the impartial third party where they

can look at your life in your decisions

and say you know what i wouldn't call

you a codependent

but maybe you have some areas where you

express some codependent tendencies

or they might say well you're loaded

with it thanks for coming in let's start

talking

i mean they probably wouldn't use that

term but i i think it might be asking

too much of the codependent themselves

to self-diagnose it but

hopefully and i can tell you this from

my own personal experience

that when it was first presented to me

i had a very difficult time coming to

grips with the idea that i could get

better

because if i got better than i wasn't me

anymore

and that's very scary it's incredibly

scary

so but i am

so much more who i want to be

now that i have addressed it and now

that i've been dealing with it for a few

years now and recovering from it

i feel freer i feel more in control of

who i

am and i know we use the term a lot in

the church of

selflessness being selfless but i think

that the idea of christian discipleship

as opposed to

codependent discipleship is where we're

able to

self-full give where we are giving

as a more whole person where we are able

not just try and give you drops from a

nearly empty bucket

but we're able to help people with

more of a full person and with more

strength and

and can be anchored in that and i think

even elder uchtdorf talked about helping

people from

you know watering from empty buckets in

a general conference talk and i think

this is what we're talking about

is understanding that we are inviting

people to greater power to be a

christian disciple we are inviting them

to a lifestyle that is more in harmony

with the doctrines

of agency and honors the gifts that god

has given us

and just like in the oath covenant of

the priesthood we are not

to compel people we are not to be

overbearing and

have unrighteous dominion we are to love

we are to invite we are to encourage we

are to support and sustain one another

but it doesn't require us owning other

people's problems

in order to get there and again that can

be very scary because as a priesthood

holder and

how many times are we told that you are

a priesthood holder and

therefore you easily jump to how many

people do i fix

how many people do i save who is my

responsibility who do i minister to

and make sure that they get to the

celestial kingdom otherwise somehow i'm

a bad minister and and there's just

sometimes culturally where we make this

thought distortion leap into well this

is the doctrine so

therefore it must mean that i need to

behave this way and that's the

distortion we're trying to address and

deal with

and i feel like that it's possible

um but you oftentimes will require

someone outside of you

to to get there and that's one of the

hardest things for a codependent to do

because now we're dumping on other

people that's what it looks like

we're dumping on other people to fix our

problems which is the very thing that we

hate

the very thing that's controlling our

lives so why would i turn around and do

that to someone else

you're not dumping this on your

therapist you're still taking ownership

of it you're just

asking for their help to get there

very good jennifer any last words

no thank you for having us on this is a

fantastic fun conversation

yeah i love how you really tested us on

these things that's great i love it

good good good well it's interesting

right it's interesting stuff so they are

nicoletti and jennifer roach authors of

the book that just came out last week

co-dependent discipleship look it up on

amazon and buy it i think you're going

to enjoy it

appreciate both of you and your time and

your efforts and

your thought process in putting us all

together thank you

"I Take This Every Day!"

Learn more about why I accepted Cardio Miracle as a sponsor and why I take it every day!

- Greg Matsen

Learn More!

Cwic Study Group

Checkout our weekly Cwic Study Group!

Delve deeper!

Learn More

Stay connected with Study Tips & Updates!

Cwic Week

Donate

Be a part of our mission! Help us help others increase their understanding of the scriptures and increase their faith.

Donate

Cwic Merch!

Check out our Merch Store! Apparell and Accessories.

Shop!

Cwic Audio Player

All of the Cwic Media podcast episodes on one page!

Cwic Audio Player

Fixing God - Codependency's Need To Fix

"I Take This Every Day!"

Cwic Study Group

Checkout our weekly Cwic Study Group!

Delve deeper!

Stay connected with Study Tips & Updates!

Donate

Be a part of our mission! Help us help others increase their understanding of the scriptures and increase their faith.

Cwic Merch!

Cwic Audio Player

All of the Cwic Media podcast episodes on one page!

Two Step