all right you're really going to enjoy this conversation I loved this conversation with my good friend Kurt
frankum from leading Saints we talk about grace and works guilt and shame
does God have expectations of you just a really solid good discussion here that I
think you're going to enjoy before we get started I want to talk again about the gospel on the Nile this is the tour
that I do with Bruce Porter this is coming up in September from sept September 10th to September 19th I would
love to see you on this trip this is a trip where you learn so much about the
gospel the ritual embrace the abrahamic Covenant the Royal procession you will
never see the temple the same again again this is Gospel on the Nile this is
September 10th to 19th 2024 go to quick media.com that's cwic media.com go to
trips and events and scroll down to gospel on the Nile would love to see you there here we go
[Music]
all right welcome to Quick show my name is Greg Matson and I am your host on this episode we have brought back my good friend Kurt frankum from leading
Saints welcome Kurt hey Craig it's good to be back I always appreciate the invitation these are fun conversations
yeah well this one's going to be fun too um overall umbrella approach to what we're about to talk about you come out
with a book here called is God disappointed in me removing shame from a gospel of
grace I I view and I talk about this a lot on the podcast but I I view the church having kind of a a pendulum that
swings back and forth and you know the pendulum for the longest time was remain
was was hanging over on the side of Works your checklist are you doing
enough I mean you know digging into the heritage of the Pioneers who were pulling o pulling and overcoming every
possible horrible thing right right and but to me it seems that we've we've gone to this pendulum is swung all the way
over to the other side where we're we're we're great we're very Grace heavy at
least in you know I I don't know about our necessarily yet in our let's call it
our Sunday school lessons but it culturally um it seems to me that and
and messages that are sent out there it seems to me like we've gone over to that side of Grace do you see it that way and
if so is that good and if you don't see it that way where is it wrong yeah yeah so
it's funny you bring up the the pendulum example because I talk about a pendulum example in my book called The Gospel
Continuum where we have Grace on one side you know the love of God on one side works on the other side Justice or
you know all the behaviors that are maybe expected of us to be a good latterday Saint and oftentimes and this
is sort of the invitation I felt from God as I was writing this is like what do we do with these two extremes because
it does feel like we can't be on both sides at the same time or I've got to be either buy into full Grace full
acceptance full of or I got to be the rigid like behaviors doing the doing the
thing so I would completely agree with you uh and I think it's more of just how we're framing it in Our Gospel
experience because I feel like you know you see it you know bless our hearts I think of you know a family who's like
done all the behaviors maybe they would frame themselves as a very Orthodox home and then that teenager comes out as LGBT
or whatever it is and suddenly it just rocks that family and everybody escapes to the the grace side they hold on to it
they refuse to let go and then they kind of lose their identity in it all and and again I you know these aren't my uh
situations and who knows how I would respond but it also breaks my heart of thinking well you abandon like this
other side that's so beautiful and has a deeper purpose but in our minds we we U
misunderstand it as like well no that's just you know those things are are are mean and they're too heavy and and what
you know what happens to the mental health of my son or daughter or or family or so we just have to stay in the
love side and but there I think there's so much more to understand a better way to frame this and and I it goes back to
sort of the a larger uh view of the book and what I'm trying to do with the book
is is that I'm not necessarily I don't consider myself a gospel scholar or I don't know the the scriptures in and out
or I I can't spout pure Doctrine just just without without really thinking
about it but oftentimes we take a true principle and it's not that we change the principle but we frame it
incorrectly and we do this all the time in the church where you know even like Families Are Forever families can be
together forever like great simple primary principle but we frame it in a way of like if maybe somebody's more
against the church they be like isn't that like mean that you would like cast people out of heaven and all these empty
chairs in heaven and you won't be able to see your loved ones who decided to drink coffee you know in immortality and
you're like wait a minute like where are you getting all that like you've you've framed a Doctrine a true Doctrine truth
in a very poor way when in reality there's so many other ways to frame frame the doctrine so I think a lot of
people this pendulum exists and they'll agree that it but we frame it poorly okay so in the title here you have
removing shame from the gospel of grace I want you to talk a little bit about guilt and shame because you kind of
focus on this yeah and and and talk about how you know I think this has to do with a lot of people that would feel
guilt and shame I'm going to be really honest with this we were talking just before this in a certain exercise that we have gone through together before but
I have a harder time with this because I don't feel those things very well I
think I think I'm a callous hardened heart person that's it Greg we figured you out I don't have I don't feel that
as much no as like I know my wife does I mean right she's gonna she's gonna work off of those things right there that is
like she's gonna stay as far away from that as possible right and so she's
going to react a lot to guilt and shame right and I think a lot of people do and and I don't it's harder for me to to
understand that I guess that that where a lot of people are in that position and they're going to operate off of hey this
is my framework if I feel guilt and shame I'm doing something wrong and maybe this is now going to become a
Power a feeling a Guist that is going to
help me spiral downward yeah yeah this this dichotomy of guilt to shame is
interesting and there's more and more you know the in the age of beray brown right there's just so much more research coming out about what shame is and how
it impacts us and um we often simplify you know oh guilt is when I do something
wrong but shame is when I I feel like I'm something wrong and to me I guess
that's not overly helpful because I hear that I'm like well what do I do with that and so I just frame shame in in a
simple way of like shame is any any time that the Divine identity is attacked and
and you talk a lot about Identity On on your show which I love and because I mean it's at the core of our theology
the I mean the reason we go to a temple and be endowed is to be endowed from an
identity from on high and it's beautiful and and uh there there's nothing shaming
about that it's only encouraging now again we can frame it incorrectly and and it can you know some people do make
it a negative experience but I just want I guess what that led to me to that subtitle of removing shame from a gospel
of grace is I hear individuals that maybe leave the church you know and everybody has their story and I want to
show as much empathy to the various stories but they leave it in a state of like I'm just so the church overwhelms
me or man I just don't feel like uh you know there's there's the standards are too high or I feel like I'm constantly
broken and they don't want me and I'm just never good enough and I'm thinking wow like where do this message come from
and it really comes from this core of of the attack of Shame and I truly believe that the adversary's strongest tool is
shame because it's an attack on identity and if he can attack our identity if he
can make us believe that we're something less Divine something that would be cast out of of of heaven and God is almost
disgusted with us then he can take the year off because we'll do as much sinning as we can just to numb that
feeling of I'm not good enough and so I really wanted to try and articulate the
gospel in a way of saying No this is extremely encouraging ex experience being in the gospel extremely graceful
full of love and it it should be something that you can't help but return to every seven days and say please give
me that sacrament I need it I need the Covenant because it offers me so much
strength and encouragement where other people again it's framed poorly where they think ah it's just so overwhelming
I just am exhausted by all this and and I really don't think anybody should feel exhausted in the Gospel of Jesus Christ
I I fully agree with that here's a question though I and you can help me with this hopefully
I is shame always negative I would argue I'll give you an
example go look at some of the Asian cultures I mean it's like heavy heavy shames right it's like I just watched a
Shogun which was incredible by the way and I'm watching show gun and it's like you know the whole everything they do is
built around honor versus shame right their whole interaction
between one another and I'm looking at this I'm thinking there are so many things I could buy into
here but as a modern American there are so many things I could never do right it's like I can't not buy any of these
things but I think about you know for example I I've always been really close
to my dad and and really close to I've got three brothers I'm really close to my three brothers right
and sometimes I think of something I'm like well if I ever did
that my dad and my brothers would just be like come on right right come on
about the same thing with my wife and kids you know it's like I I can't I feel like
sometimes there is a built-in structure there I mean I don't know if you call it shame or what but I I can't do that you
know I've got a wife and kids that look up to me you know not up to me necessarily but they're like I can't do that to them right I can't I can't put
them in a position where they're like what is Dad doing you know yeah so and
to answer your question simply is isn't is shame always bad I would I would absolutely say yes it is now I think
you're asking you a different question is but it works Kurt like it is should
it be bad if it works like I'll be the first to admit shame Works Greg like
when as a father of a a bl's his start nine-year-old boy ah man it's hard when
we have church at nine o'clock ah you know we gotta get out the door Greg and you know there's perceptions and you
know I gota I want to be on on church on time like yeah I I default to the sword
of Shame often because I need results now long game it's just not effective
it's not a way especially in a long game that's Eternal a long game where we're supposed to become something like we can
perceive like we're becoming something and there's many people in the church and sometimes that person is me where I
show up to church and it looks like hey Kurt's got life figured out I mean look at his family everybody's dressed nicely
but little do they know the shame that happened behind the scenes and really this is a higher law I mean as far as
the law of Moses like yeah there was a lot of behavior things there but God invited us into a higher law that is
based on love and acceptance and encouragement and Grace and I that's
that's the the workshop that I want to step into I think God you accept me completely now like even if I never
change today you accept me like how do I become like that I want to learn how to love like you love and in the long run
it is a Redemptive experience so there's so many things that play into that I think it it's you
know like I think of lehi's dream that is a major anchor for me and when I look through almost everything through that
filter and you think of the pointing fingers right from the great and spacious building of Shame looking over at the people that are partaking of the
fruit at the tree of life and many of them leave right because they can't handle the shame uh that is thrown their
way definitely a tool from the adversary to pull them away from the gospel
um but there are
shame is perhaps the wrong response but there are expectations that are in place so going
from all the way from the top there is God and His expectations for us certainly he has expectations I hear
something I I I hear think that this came I'm not sure but I think this came from a uh a talk radio a popular talk
radio host who said something along the lines of if you just lower your
expectations you won't be disappointed as much yeah yeah right and
was really into that and I've heard so many people repeat that oh okay I can just lower my expectations and then I
don't have the shame I don't have the disappointment that would go along with that right we do have there is there is
expectations and and I think that those are positive if they're ideal and true
and righteous does doesn't God have expectations for us oh this is where
this is where our conversation is fun great because and again my book I mean I'm not some BYU PhD or whatever like
it's a thought exercise and there'll be really good there's many things in the book where people disagree but I just
want you to think about it I could be totally wrong but I want you to process and think about it so I make the argument in the book that God has zero
expectations in us and you think oh come on C have you ever been to church have you ever like sat through the temple or
listened to the Commandments or or read the word of wisdom right because if if we believe in a Jesus Christ who came
here and that his grace was sufficient then then he fulfilled all expectation
like it's over it's done so then why all the Commandments and Covenants and I believe that the Commandments and
Covenants they are refining process they are the workshop of God that God invites us into and say you want to be like me
here's some Commandments and Covenants not because he expects you to do it or else he'll cast you off and thrust you
out of heaven but because he will build he will invite you into a right relationship with him I think of my you
know I talk about in the book about witnessing my oldest daughter Walk For the First Time like it was this
beautiful in interaction of of me encouraging her and when she did I have
an expectation that she would run around and and Skip and and and go get a job at
that point you know no because I knew that she was developing into something beautiful I had zero expectation in her
walking so that when she fell down I didn't think oh great she messed it up or God doesn't see a sin and and and you
know he didn't he didn't Scurry Around Heaven and be oh where's that where's Jesus at I got to send him down I didn't think they'd actually sin no of course
he knew we would sin and he sent his son so that he could fulfill all expectation and and then God would give
us covenants and Commandments as a as a relationship as a tool as a workshop to step into to
refine and and and work and work through our exaltation because of Jesus Christ
but doesn't he expect us to obey the commandments so the way again we're all
framing these things so I don't I don't if if we have a if we have if we believe
that Jesus Christ fulfilled all expectation why would he need to expect
us to well where are we told though that Jesus Christ fulfills all expectation well so that his grace was sufficient
right in Romans it talks about that and that like what Jesus did uh was was
enough in in other terms right now do we believe that I don't know I mean maybe you can help me on that but is there is
there a Gap there that we're supposed to fill or did he fulfill all and so that's where I'm like if we can do the the
theological math of work the math of saying all right so what's my part like
okay so Christ had this much expectation I have this much or you know how does that work because what if I don't live
up even though I'm trying I'm Still Still Immortal and I fall short of my expectation then what well know Christ
can't fulfill that so that's where I really want people to to think this through is like if these are
expectations then where does Christ step in there and what if I fall short and that's why in my mind it works better to
frame it that Jesus fulfilled all expectation and we just have to uh you
know that's where the other side of the of the the pendulum of that we receive his grace receive his Redemption and
then he invites invites us into an exaltation exper experience of saying I can't just magically make you like me
but I want to invite you into a process that does that and so if you want to do that yeah sure then you can say there's
an expectation to do that but um nor is this a universal argument that yeah just
you know do whatever no expectation we'll just let yall in because that wouldn't that wouldn't be accurate too
because we have to become something to absorb more of his grace and love I
guess for me it's I want a God that ex has expectations
I want him to have expectations of me why is that because that is it's almost
like it's a hope he has a hope for me of what I'm going to become and where I'm going to
go and what I'm going to do and and I I I would be on the other end I would be
really disappointed right if he doesn't have those expectations
because if he I don't know I guess in my mind and again it's how frame this but
in my mind if he doesn't have those expectations of me he doesn't care I yeah and he does have those
expectations and because of his son they're fulfilled right we're on the other side of the atonement and so then
what right that um then the reality is is sometimes we want sort of that God that's a little bit disappointed in us
like you know what I thought you were better and there there comes the shame in it like because shame works right
it'll get us moving it'll get us to wake up and on church on time if if we perceive that our identity will be
altered right so I again it's we're sort of uh it's all you know the way we
Define words but at the end of the day if if if God at no point says you bet I
expect you to do this or you're something less he loves us completely and that's the power of his love is that
no matter how many times we mess up no matter how many times we have to repent he's still with us right because he
doesn't have to he doesn't have to hold space for expectation because he's already get it's already been fulfilled through Jesus so he can sit with us as
long as it takes because there's not that tension of the expectation he can just continue to sit with us and say
yeah just turn to Jesus Jesus again I'm G have to think longer on that right right and again this is a thought
exercise right and I'm sure and a lot of people turn to the Old Testament like Kurt like really there's not an disappointed God have you read the Old
Testament right yeah but um I just it just does not serve me well does not
keep me engaged in the gospel by knowing I keep messing up and I'm kind of garbage for doing that no it's like this
God that's like don't worry about the expectations just stay engaged in my Commandments keep my Commandments and
and I don't necessarily like do all my Commandments but just hold on to it hold on to the Covenant and I that's why I
love our theology so much we have a symbol that every day we put on the Garment as a symbol of that Covenant a
symbol of Jesus Christ saying today's going to be tough you're G to mess up but whatever you do just hold on to that
Covenant just keep it on just keep going right rather than well you're kind of not worthy to put on that that Covenant
today because I had some different expectations yesterday okay so you talk
about disappointment here I I like these things being articulated and you do that several times in the book here here you
say this is a quote from the book you say disappointment is simply the transfer of Shame within the boundaries
of a loving relationship so you're you're you're equating shame with
disappointment here is that correct yeah shame is I guess disappointment is just the what we
call the transfer of Shame uh that's how I framed it there in a loving
relationship in a loving relationship right because you know the old and we've heard it we've probably heard it from our own parents like I'm not mad at you
but I sure am disappointed in you like that almost stings more I'd almost rather my mom just be mad at me rather
than disappointed me because disappointment is an identity statement like I thought you were something more
but now I realize yeah you're not right and if I had a god who's like I created you as my child I thought you were my
child I guess I'm I guess you're not like whoa whoa wait don't abandon me don't don't like that's where the shame
can really be destructive is that at any point if we feel like our identity is not set in uh by or defined by God that
we're in trouble right or we're always chasing this ideal ideal identity and this is you know in the scriptures I
love you know obviously Christ baptism here he comes this is this is my beloved
Son and you can make the argument like nobody shouted from the banks like hey wait a minute God he hasn't done anything yet we at the beginning of his
ministry he hasn't proven that get back to us later maybe he'll be beloved if he does all the things no like God God said
in the beginning the identity like this he's beloved he's my son and he does
that to us as well I love you know John 159 that I don't have but don't have
verbatim but basically all the ways that God loves Jesus Jesus loves you and so
Jesus thinks you're beloved Jesus think is willing to sit with you and and encourage you and knows that you have
Divine potential so why would you ever give up you see also on one side of things
you know the way the way we there's a cultural issue I mean we kind of touched on this but there is
kind of you got like the tiger mom right it's like and this is something that the
tiger moms really come from the term comes from from mothers in Korea Korean
mothers right and you know I've been there and you look around and honestly the place is incredible it's it's it's
spotless there's hardly any crime the people are all really
polite it's it's amazing right actually when you go there at least as a visitor
yeah but it's also got a high suicide rate yeah and and so you've got this you know these two sides of of this high
level of expectation coming from parents I mean you have high school kids there
that go off to boarding schools all the time and they'll be doing their homework
until midnight every night you know it's it's really a tough strict culture that
they have and I see some positives there but certainly I I see uh a number of negatives what is the balance then is
there a balance or does it have nothing to do with that type of a spectrum well that's Spectrum simply your identity is
your your is the Spectrum simply you don't need to worry about one side or the other it's simply remembering you're
a child of God is there no expectation on that is there no
anything that's going to be placed on that what what is the guiding principle yeah and this is why it's it's so
important to go back to the beginning of our conversation to see this this uh this this Continuum that we're on uh
where God doesn't just invite us over to love to be like great like we're just going to and this is where you know
Evangelical Traditions come in it seems like we're just I just love you and we're just going to like hang out in heaven forever it's just beautiful and
I'm like well I mean I don't want to sing hymns for eternity I mean I guess if that's the plan I we'll do but it it
seems incomplete for me right and so we H then in that in with that Foundation of love and I call it the gravity of
Grace God will always pull us over to Grace first and say I want you to be sure what your identity is you are a
child of God right we're in Nursery that's where we're we're starting you're loved completely and anytime you need to
come to me for help I'm here to help and then because of that Grace and this is the
the the Paradox of Grace is that when I feel completely accepted Carl Rogers
said it this way the the Curious Paradox is that when I accept myself just as I am then I begin to change and I I would
tweak it for a religious context of when I realize that Jesus or God accepts me
just as I am then I begin to change or then I have this desire to change and so
then from this Foundation of love then we can swing over to the behaviors the
covenants th those things that are that are put in place because that's the workshop where we can we can exalt where
we can become something so I don't mind a drill sergeant God who's gonna get on my level you know I call him the Eternal
coach who's like listen your first half was not good and you got to change some
things up and there's many times like okay yeah you're right yeah you're right I missed I missed it I fumbled there
whatever I'm gonna give it another go right there's no shame in that because it's based on a foundation of a loving
relationship of a God who who that like your identity is not on the line with these things and so then we we go that
way right now the more we refine ourselves the more we we engage in Commandments and Covenants we become
something more and as we swing back we actually find new depths of God's love
not because he turned up the faucet of his love and it's it's he's now willing to give us more of his love but we've
become beings that can absorb more of his love and the more we go up high on that side of the spectrum the more swing
back and find more ways to to keep his Commandments and Covenant you know sometimes people say really like you
think a cappuccino is really going to keep me out of heaven like it seems like such a nonissue but I when you're in
this this this uh Continuum going back and forth and love and and and and Covenants I I like what else you want me
to do god like I want to do whatever it takes to return to you he's like well don't drink coffee great I'm on board
right because I'm in this relationship of love love and acceptance and I know that anything he asked me to do I'll
I'll it'll be for my good and I'll progress even when I don't understand it right so and this is what I what I call
repentance is we're swinging back and forth on this Continuum some days I just need to sit with maybe a good good
gospel centered song and just let the love of God pour over me other days I need to dig into president you know uh
president Oak's talk and and really unpack or Elder kristopher's talking really unpack this doctorine and
understand how I need to change but it's always done with this gravity of Grace or the foundation of love and there's no
room for shame in that relationship I would agree fully with that message right it's it's you've got to know you're
loved you've got to know you're accepted you've got to know that there's a relationship there no matter what I I think of first of my
parents and how they treated me even when I made mistakes you know a pretty
hard dad I mean he is like a marine right it's he's hard but I mean unbelievably loving father at the same
time he he he he was not going to he certainly had expectations yeah but I
always knew no matter what the situation was that that man loved me yeah always knew
that and and that that I never swam in any different pool right than that I
mean he was always I I always worked from that scenario so when I was in
trouble and there were several times where that was the case I I I knew I had
to change something but I knew it didn't break my relationship with them right right right
yeah and so many times I see people feel like I'm just not good enough like why am I even doing this this latterday
saint dance like I'm out I'm done can't do it like whoa whoa whoa like you swallowed some false Doctrine somewhere
that that is not helping you is not helping you stay engaged in the gospel and even you know with our mutual friend
Pastor Jeff is I've explored some of these principles because and this is this I didn't realize how unique to our
faith this is of because I'll ask him like well like Grace then so then what like why it's Grace it's great that we f
f Grace but what does that enable us to do he's like well nothing you're just love like okay well yeah I appreciate
that but like is there any purpose behind it and and they sort of frame it and and of course I could be wrong on this but I'll do my best to give the the
benefit of the doubt but the that that you you you're saved by grace you feel that love and naturally you'll just do
good things and we say no no no we we feel that love and it enables us it gives us strength to do those things to
engage in a covenant right and that's why we have you know some people look at the temple recommend questions being
like what's the deal with that where's the grace there it's just Behavior after Behavior after Behavior it's like well
we need some type of dipstick to pull out of your heart and say I think your heart's changed I don't know yet but
according to your behaviors it appears that way so let's have you go to the temple to make a deeper Covenant but if
we just let everybody go to the temple and start making covenants they're not the they haven't become the people ready
to make the Covenant which once they are and they make the Covenant they'll swing back into a deeper loving relationship
with with our Eternal god let's go back to that
so we receive God's Grace and and then where
do we go from there what does that mean then let's expound on that a little bit more because that is a little bit more
of the focus of mainstream Christianity right it is receive the grace and go to
church and and and be good but we have a
much we have a lot more added on to right the the pathway once we receive
that Grace yeah and and a lot you know Pastor Jeff sort of shared me his struggles of like well it feels like
there's suddenly you're you're involving too many too much Works in there like it's just all about Grace and I feel
like on both sides of the spectrum people can get stuck and sometimes you get stuck in that Grace mode and with
but with the restored gospel the New Covenant like is beautiful just open that wide open and say know there's a
whole another part now that I don't want you to come into the temple to qualify
for anything per se I I want you to come into the temple to that I can reveal your identity of of who you are and who
you can become and and that's a very Redemptive message and so we feel that Grace and I would say build a
relationship with me absolutely as I always say it's not the ordinance path it's not you're checking a list yeah you
are create you are making covenants to bind yourself to God yeah right to have a and that binding what that means is to
try to become more like him to put on the character of God and to build a relationship with him right and this is
where I you know I've talked with Pastor Jeff about this like so explain to me marriage then like isn't like getting
married a form of works like why can't you just like be boyfriend girlfriend all the time move in together and do these things and you know there sort of
well there talks about marriage and that you know they should be married and you yeah but like that's that's all this is
for us it's not like we're doing more works we just have a ceremony where where we say I want to be more committed
to you and I don't know what that's to take or what I need to change but I'm willing to step into that relationship
that Covenant relationship because I know at the end of the day it's gonna turn out well for me and even on paper
you look at marriage you know the the the tradition of marriage and a lot of people from a secular Viewpoint be like
you guys your system's broken like it doesn't I don't see so many divorces and like what's the point like but no that
we do that we lean into it because it's a it's a Divine relationship that we know we can become more right and
believe me I would love the bachelor life I mean I love my kids but you know I could find I've got nieces and nephews
or I can figure that part out or but I just I kind of like to do my own thing go by the Beat of My Own Drum like why
invite like a relationship in there to really mudter the waters well because God invited me says I want you to learn
from this relationship so we you can learn about our relationship and being in a relationship with my wife has
definitely helped me be in a better relationship with God and it's a sanctifying process and so that's one
part of the I feel like the gospel this is because of the restoration was blown open and further understanding we're not
just latterday Saints who do these weird things in these temples know we're we're engaging in a deeper relationship with
God it's beautiful it is beautiful there no question yeah I want to bring up something else that we we've talked
about before and you know I've got this thing I call Teddy Bear Jesus oh yes and uh I feel sometimes we're moving toward
that well I I do feel we are moving toward that and you know my idea of what
a teddy bear Jesus would be would something where it is all Grace there are no
Commandments um there is no judgment uh there is no justice uh it
is simply a a a god of I'm G to put my arm around you I'm going to comfort you
and not only come as you are which is the right message but stay as you are and that's
okay right there's two sides to that and and that that to me is I feel like
especially as we've discussed for people that really need
healing right we can say well the greatest message for you is that God
loves you and that's probably true and who you are in your image right but to
me and I'm talking from personal experience here right to me the medicine
that that's kind of only half the half the uh half the medicine right half the dose the other dose
is beyond just receiving the grace it is who can I
become what is the Hope for the future in other words the faith in Christ the
first of the three major attributes that we're told to follow faith hope and charity faith is like putting your faith
in the atoning sacrifice that that's where our healing is going to come from right it it based on whatever wrong
we've done or has been we've been wronged or whatever else it might be whatever deep psychological issues or
traumatic issues that we have that is number one and that's crucial but there's also hope and charity right and
and and hope and charity to use those not getting them from God but developing
in them our those attributes ourselves that hope to me is not just a hope that
stops at well that wound is healed and I'm good now right it it's a hope in a future
it's a hope in who you can become it's a hope in fulfillment a fulfilling
existence a a hope in in joy that you can get from living a certain life and
becoming a certain person and putting on that character of God and then of course the charity right which is not just
coming from God the love of God but it's your as you partake of that fruit which is
the love of God it it becomes a part of you and and now as I love myself and and
I see a hope in the future and I it is very motivating I can take that energy
and that vision and I can offer even more help to those around me as I have
strengthened myself and serve others right with the same thing and I
feel sometimes teddy bear Jesus is the idea of well we're just going to stop at Faith yeah you hear this this statement
a lot of you know the gospel is just about love right you just got to love people and and I get that and is the
gospel just about love yeah sure but people can interpret that differently where I say well the gospel begins with
love and that's where that's the foundation of that love I mean you go to you know the resurrected Christ when
he's having the you know the feed my sheep conversation with Peter like that I mean that's a straight like direct
conversation with one of his disciples but it's in a place of Peter knows absolutely that Jesus loves him so much
so much so that he's willing to be like we're done with the fisherman thing right he didn't say like oh you love
fishing so much you just keep fishing man bless your heart no like he is
inviting him up into a higher Covenant a higher purpose a higher identity and if
we just say like a the gospel is about love and we feel like and again this is where the dissonance comes like well I know there's these Commandments and
covenants but they're kind of harsh so let's just put our hand over those and just focus on love because Love's
beautiful and we can just you know just be there but there's we're we're limiting ourselves so much when we when
we close ourselves off to those feed my sheep kind of conversation with god where he says you need to change because
I love you and I made you something to be entirely different yeah and again I think that
medicine is feeding the sheep that part of that healing for your is the idea that oh I could be someone yeah that
could take on that responsibility and and it might be okay well I'm in a fragile position so I'm
afraid of doing that but the truth is I think that if you move forward in the
gospel and you say I'm going to take on more responsibility I I to me that's there's
a lot of medicine there because that is where the joy and fulfillment comes from and I feel like in a therapeutic gospel
it's like oh no don't and you know to a certain degree fine but don't talk about
responsibility don't talk about what they will need to do yeah you know or what they can do or what they they you
know it's more just it it to me it locks people into a victim
mentality yeah if you're not moving beyond just that Faith right and and I would admit like sometimes we talk past
each other where we we agree but we're just talking past each other uh because we we're in a world that is just aching
for love and grace at times like we've been there's so much shame in the world so much so much terrible messages that
we we it spreads over everything even even to some of our gospel message and so it's like ah like I I am so hungry
for love that we can we just stay there forever like I need to fill in my tank for a long time here and then we we
think oh yeah that other part is just not too too much I don't need that I'm not even going to think about that right
now because it triggers me or whatever it is right but no there's a there's a higher law higher relationship with God
um and I talk I talk about this there's this sort of arbitrary transl Hebrew
translation of the word righteousness as right relationship and you know because
righteousness is throughout the the scriptures right this encouragement to be righteousness but if you take out and
replace that with right relationship that we know we're righteous when we're in relationship with God like to me
that's so encouraging even when I mess up I think well I'm still aiming for a
right relationship with God I'm still aiming for righteousness and so that right relationship with God includes
that medicine you talk of of like all right tomorrow we're gonna do do better because you know what Kurt you are the
type of person who can keep every Commandment that I give you every Covenant I wouldn't have given it to you
if I didn't believe in you so here we go we're going to try one more time take that Sacrament and reset and we're going
to go again yeah I like that uh talk about how you frame Commandments
again I know you touched on this a little bit but you talk about Commandments and worth as an individual
expound on that a little bit yes so you know even you think of the scripture like if ye love me keep my Commandments
right there I mean Kurt where're that's dripping with expectation right and we often frame it in a way of like God's
sort of this like this this person in the relationship that just sort of like like you better keep my Commandments or
you don't love me oh you didn't keep my Commandments I guess that that proves you don't love me like that again full of Shame like we we're framing it wrong
yeah but um if if I love God and he I love him because as we know he first
loved us he loved me and that foundation and so of course I love him and so he says then keep my C Commandments now we
we interpret that more in like a behavior thing so then if you love me do all the things do everything I I tell
you to do Welles yeah exactly where and and I love our our doctrine of of tokens right it's
almost as if God gives us a token a commandment a covenant and says okay whatever whatever happens in life just
keep it just hold on to my commandments so if you love me hold on to my
Commandments if you love me don't quit if you love me just keep going don't drop that Covenant and too often with
the the bad interpretation of of that of that Dynamic people think well I'm
obviously I can't do it so I might as well drop it like well no you're supposed to just keep it he didn't say
you know do everything perfect or or else no just keep it right so to me that's just a more encouraging framing
of yeah covenants and Commandments are crucial to your development just don't let them go yeah talking about Hebrew
going back to Hebrew along those lines there is when you talk about keep
it is also guard yeah guard like Spanish translation right yeah the guard or or
preserve mm right you're saying like you're saying hold on to it you're preserving that in fact it's interesting
because the you know Jews don't call us Christians I mean they will in English
but in Hebrew they call us the keepers oh really I didn't know that yeah or or the preserved ones or those that
preserve so that's kind of it's no no is is is the is the word they still use
today for Christians it's those that the the keepers almost yeah and to me I interpret that as we're the we're the
people that don't give up right we keep hold on it and to today was tough tomorrow's may be tougher but I'm just
I'm not gonna let go of this this Covenant you know okay so that's a reframing of of Commandments what about
Sin how would you frame sin talk about Sin a little bit right so and this is the thing when people think okay here's
this this this quack on this this podcast here telling me that God doesn't have expectations and and it can be
interpreted like I'm sort of like let's not talk about like let's it's not a big deal let's just dismiss it like it's
uncomfortable talking about that but let me be very clear that sin will destroy you like it it it we we need and it
doesn't matter who in my circle of influence friends family LGBT brothers and sisters
uh addicts like whoever if anybody comes to me and says Kurt like life is so hard
I don't know what to do every time no matter what the circumstance my answer will be this same and it is turn to
Jesus like come un him and repent like I promise you it's it might be a a more
intense experience but it's gonna be so worth it right and so um with sin like
sin will destroy you and really we we again we frame it sin as like well sin is any time you break a commandment it's
a very behavioral framing of it but sin happens anytime you turn away from God
anytime and and some sins are more stigmatized right so we think ah you know you know Johnny's really struggling
with pornography and there's such a heavy stigma with pornography that we think man he he could only figure it out
but we all numb in some way which turns us from God when we don't go to God as
the answer to everything we every you know ill and in immortality then we are
sinning like he is the answer now there's a lot of nuance in this right where some people I have a hard day of
work I just can't wait to go home and and and binge on some streaming service and just forget I exist for a couple
hours like again there's nothing wrong with watching movies there nothing wrong with binging a good series but if we're
doing it to cope with life that's a sin we've turned from God right it's not
stigmatized I'll Stand Up in Elders cor and say oh is anybody seen this you know this series and it's so good but again
if we're doing it in our hearts to to numb out like that's a that's sin so anytime we turn to God and now this
introduces the our earlier discussion of of guilt when we feel guilt I don't see Guilt as some sort of tool that God's
like prodding us with like oh you did something bad I'm gonna poke you with the guilt stick for a while until you change your ways guilt is the natural
experience we we have whenever we turn from God and there will be something in
our soul that always drawing us back think I don't like I feel a little distance I'm out of sort it's like ah
that that feels I feel so guilty that's so you do think that guilt has a positive element to it yeah
and guilt and shame are different absolutely and there is a role for Guilt but my my contention is I don't think
guilt is like a tool that God's like inflicting upon us it's this natural experience of Turning Away From God that
we we can't exist there so we'll either have to numb it cope with life in a different way and that's what leads to
maybe more stigmatized sin of like I can't I I just had an argument with my wife I this dissonance I I need a I need
reprieve I need I need Redemption I'll just look at pornography and I can and I can have other feelings that that numb
me out that way well again that's that's just that's sin obviously it leads to sin so guilt is any time any experience
the or the natural experience we have when we turn from God as and look towards any other answer but God yeah I
like that a lot and that again goes against a lot of what the therapeutic gospel would say and a lot of what
counseling is now giving Which is if you feel guilt that's the worst thing in the world and and therefore how do we either
put your head in the sand right or or go after those that where you seem to be
getting the guilt from which could be shame but it might not be right getting
from someone else it's more of us feeling of I'm not doing the right thing or it's your religion and therefore your
religion is what is guilting you in into these things and I I like that it's more
of a it's if you're turning away from God there is going to be a natural consequence yeah that is going to exist
yeah many times trying to remove the stigma of it like hey you know a little porn helps go ahead like whatever you
got to do to survive or or you know cope or do these things now I don't that doesn't mean I like turning to Gods
means I'm like reading my scriptures or I'm like meditating and I'm turning to but many times it's like I just need I
need to escape from life and and go to God well what did Moses do he went into the mountains uh what do does that mean for us we go to the temple or or maybe
we go to the actual mountains and you know I've had one guy tell me when I'm fly fishing I've never felt closer to God like sounds like you need a fly fish
a whole lot more because there's something about refreshing about your soul you just unplug reconnect with God
reconnect with nature that God created and that's how we turn turn to him and avoid that guilt yeah that's good stuff
well Kurt anything else you want to add on the book before uh you know say goodbye here so much heresy in the book
I encourage you to check it out but no again this is a thought exercise I may get to the other side and got of be like
oh Kurt that was such a cute book you wrote but I've been perpetually disappointed you but for me I'll be like
you know what God maybe I had it all wrong but this kept me engaged in the gospel and I just couldn't think of you
as somebody who was shaming me and and attacking my Divine Identity or wanting me to feel like I was less than I am so
it kept me engaged like okay great I'm glad you wrote the book right so uh definitely engage with it I I I hope it
just gets you thinking I'm I'm not trying to win you over to my my way of thinking or framing the gospel but it was fun to write and I often say it's
one thing to know the gospel it's a whole other thing to articulate the gospel and that it's was a great
exercise for me to do that well I really liked it so audience go out and grab it I'll put the link in the description box
uh on the YouTube channel so Kurt thanks again it was really good seeing you last week or the week before can't remember
now butang appreciate you coming on see you
[Music]
