Cwic Show- Joe Adams, Undercover Cop

We are now merging the few episodes from the Cwic Show channel into Cwic Media. This is part of a 'Cwic Show' launch for Cwic Media. Look for many new interviews both of cultural and gospel study interests on this channel!

Joe is a member of the church and an undercover cop. It's a very interesting dynamic. In this episode, we talk about everything from stories on the street, drugs, addiction and policy, violent crime, the Clinton Crime Bill, human trafficking, what life is like for a cop daily, and PTSD. What cops have to carry with them after a long time on the job, and breaking points. Amazing experience of innocence drawing one back into humanity. Great interview!

 

Podcast Links:

Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cwic-media/id1428167000

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3BNjs4EJqo0iK4LURdTPDb

 

 

 LDS Mormon

 

Joe you've been on the is of the Mesa

Police Department what makes a police

department and you've been on since was

at 2000 2004 of April 2004

okay so you've had different assignments

during that time correct so what 15

years now one of those assignments that

you had was undercover yeah so we're

gonna talk about that a little bit I'm

very interested to get an idea of the

some of the stories and you know it's a

lot different when you have someone

who's actually dealing with this

firsthand dealing with certain things as

compared to getting media reports or

secondhand news so to speak on things

like crime and drugs and even for me it

would be things like well how much does

the family affect something like this

yeah I've got a friend that that's also

uh well he just retired from the police

department but he would talk to he

would say a lot of things about he'd

actually be the guy that would come in

oftentimes the police would get a call

it could might be a domestic violence

issue or he'd come in and he'd be the

one kind of calming down the situation

he'd be the one seeing exactly what was

happening people are at the very heights

of emotions at this time and so he

would get a really good idea of kind of

what's the family structure which the

dynamic that's going on and things

like that so I'm gonna ask you a few

things about that cause that that's

something that really interests me but I

wanted to start off it kind of your

background or and what brought you

to the police department and deciding to

do what you're gonna do you were

you born in Taylor I was yeah born and

raised in Taylor Arizona okay not a lot

of people heard of it's a very small

town I mean my graduating class less

than 200 people like hundred sixty

hundred seventy people so okay not a

very big area so yeah very what was that

like I mean did you enjoy that it was

the best thing ever I mean it was kind

of one to see when I talk about my

childhood especially with people it's

like I grew up in a small town you know

the whole thing you know grown

a lot of people didn't lock their doors

you were in and out of people's houses

that you knew without ever even knocking

mm-hmm just I mean I had a blast growing

up it was it was a lot of fun a lot of

outdoor stuff hunter stuff yes okay yeah

fishing hunting camping from a very

early age from I mean some of the

earliest memories I have of my

grandfather and my dad were fishing and

hunting and camping and just doing

outdoor stuff okay now you had a your

dad was a Vietnam vet correct and how

did that affect your upbringing do you

think you know it affected I didn't

realize I guess how much it did until I

was a lot older

my great grandfather served in World War

one my grandfather actually went to

California to sign up and joined and go

fight in World War two and when he got

to California the war ended so kind of

one of those things great uncle was in

Vietnam

my dad was or excuse me in Korea my dad

was in Vietnam and I was raised around a

lot of guys that either served in

Vietnam World War two vets so it from a

very early age I think it established a

really a fondness and a love for the

country for the United States but in

America mm-hmm and I don't like I said I

don't I didn't realize it was just

always there the reverence for certain

things was always there and it just was

normal just how life was do you think

that's changing at all right now it is I

think it is I and I think the reason

why it's changing is we there there's

not a lot of lessons about our history

taught in school anymore they kind of

breeze over a little bit about of World

War one and World War two but they don't

really talk about how that affected our

country you know World War one were

millions of people throughout the world

you know we talked about on both sides

the conflict were killed and it was very

violent it was very I mean it you want

to talk about technology this was the

first time in

the history of the world that we had

modern weapons and just the ash absolute

just devastation that it caused mm-hmm

so my like I said my great-grandfather

came back and he was very cloaked my dad

was very close to him and so I think a

lot of that really bled over into my

upbringing and I a lot of the lessons

that I learned I didn't learn from

school I learned from people that

actually were there and learned from

those events like I said I there's a guy

called Grandpa Charlie grown-up he

wasn't my grandpa but he was a World War

two vet hmm

other people that I knew that were vets

and so I learned a lot of things

directly from them my dad was a massive

history buff especially American history

and so he bred and learned everything

that he possibly could about those

conflicts I mean I was really why he one

of the main reasons why he joined was

reading about World War two and being

around guys like that was he do you

think did he ever say that he was I mean

obviously the GIS that came back

from World War two a lot of them had a

very different experience coming back

home they did van the Vietnam vets did

he talk about that at all he didn't so

he actually joined him and his best

friend joined at the same time they're

both seniors in high school and at the

time they gave you a furlough if you're

still in high school yeah that's crazy

I mean to me to me it's not crazy but to

think of myself as a senior in high

school that I'm now we're gonna go off

to Vietnam and be in life-threatening

situations and in the military that's it

same to me I mean I don't know it's you

know and it was it was kind of well to

see he didn't he didn't even talk to my

grandpa about it really until after the

fact and just it was several months ago

I actually got letters that he wrote

home and in some of those letters he was

very even at that time even being in

Vietnam and seeing the things that he

did he never wavered on his stance as

far as what he's like we were over here

doing the right thing

we're over here trying to help these

people were you know trying to get them

basically make life for them better so

he so but he did say when he came back

he actually served when

at the time you did two tours in Vietnam

and you were able to come home so he did

his two volunteered for a third

and when his third was over he

volunteered for a fourth and that fourth

they said they actually sent him to

Seattle to finish out his fourth there

like now you did three and in Seattle

they were they were very clear with them

look and he was like he was called a

baby killer he was called all these

different things and was treated pretty

rough when he got home so yeah there was

a very there wasn't the parades they

they got you know when World War two

ended there wasn't that the

celebration if you will it was very

different that obviously it doesn't

sound like it affected him at all as far

as how he felt about the country and not

even a little bit the purpose that he

had had him not even did he did he ever

say why he what he felt the purpose was

well in his letter he didn't talk a lot

about it even and it's one of the

biggest regrets that I had that I didn't

make him write down a lot of the things

because there was only a couple times

where he would talk about it and it was

just you know you could kind of see that

far-off looks start and he'd kind of get

you know certain ways and so he never

really talked about it but when he went

over there he was like these people are

you know with the South Vietnamese he

was like they were being you know he's

like we are trying to free them of the

oppression of the North Vietnamese the

communism and all that he was over there

he's like we are fighting evil no they

were slaughtering people they were

truly trying to oppress people and I was

one of the scenes he's and he said it to

my grandfather's like even though he

owes I know what the news says he goes

but I know what we're doing here is

right so I said that was kind of just a

little bit of insight I got in like this

was he passed away three years ago so I

got these letters two years after two

plus years after he passed and so I'm

just now reading these and I can even

even reading them I can hear him

speaking just because of the way that he

always was there was it was that was a

big thing that the flag the things that

has stood for this country he was he was

very he that it was very he held a

reverence to that that you know that

didn't really that never wavered ever

did that have an effect on you deciding

to be in the police force you know it

did so it's kind of funny so September

11 2001 still remember that day very

clearly and so I was working and the

place that I worked I worked East Coast

hours so all my all my business was East

Coast and so when that happened I

watched I remember listening to the

radio station and did you know obviously

the news was not the same as it is now

and so they were making a joke oh some

idiot just flew a plane into the World

Trade Center again because it happened

before well when I got to work buddy

mine was like hey you need to watch this

and I walked in and I watched the second

plane hit the tower I watched it

collapse and I remember just being

pissed off so they sent us home early

and I was actually driving to a Marine

Corps recruiting station I was signing

up and I had just been married two

months having been married two months

and my dad called me we were talking and

told him what I was doing he's like if

you talk to your wife yet I was like no

he's like well you should talk to her

first

we were young you know and she didn't

tell me no but she was like I just don't

know how I feel about it so I made the

decision not to fast forward two years

my best friend from a very very young

age graduated from the Arizona Highway

Patrol Police Academy and the minute I

saw him walk across stage and had that

badge pinned on I knew I was like that's

if I can't if I can't go overseas and

fight I'm gonna do something here and so

I basically made the decision at that

point that's what I was gonna do so was

it something lifelong that you felt like

that's what you wanted and no but I

always always felt like I had to do

something you know I it's kind of same

thing my dad he's like you know you

have all this it was not just it's not

just free you know there's you know you

there's a lot of people that paid for

the life that you live and so I kind of

I've always kind of had that like I

gotta give something back and so that

was the you know didn't know what it was

didn't really have an idea but that was

kind of where they just wanted up going

mm-hmm okay so you decide to become

a cop you order the force now you do end

up becoming an undercover cop for a

while that's something you chose it's

either something that was off

you or you chose it I did choose why did

you go after that well there was so

there was two things that I've always

wanted to do within the police

department one of those we have a task

force that they are basically it's our

violent offender task force and the only

people that they go after are the

baddest of the bad dudes I mean the

murderers the people that are the

basically that 1% of society that preys

like truly preys on everybody else

so I always kind of had an idea of going

that way well to get there you have to

have certain things and so when I was

that is that just a sense that you want

to protect people you know or is it you

just have a feeling look I really want

to fight the bad guys yeah bro you know

yeah I hate bullies I mean really that's

what it boils down to is I just don't

like bullies and you just you know

it just it just bothers me you know I

just don't like those people that hey

you know what I'm just gonna go and when

I say bully anybody hey I'm gonna go

steal stuff I'm gonna go yeah you worked

hard for this I'm gonna go take it or

those people like you know hey they

murder innocent people they you know the

rape is all those types of people like I

just I just don't I just don't have

their I just don't really have a whole

lot of tolerance I guess for that type

of behavior hmm so to get over to that

unit you do have of have a background in

certain you know certain areas whether

it's a SWAT background and I've never

wanted to do SWAT it's nothing that's

ever really appealed to me so when I

when I had the opportunity to go work in

in the unit that I did I was a part of

our tactical utility squad so yeah part

of my job was do undercover stuff but

the other part was to be on the side

where when it was time to take them off

take off the guys we were buying from or

you know the runners or do whatever that

was our job so we did a lot of we did a

lot of that like hey okay we've been

buying from these dudes or hey we had a

big you know sometimes it was a couple

pounds of meth that the deal was set up

and our job was to come in they had no

idea we were coming and we took them off

you've probably got a lot of stories

yeah from that time what it what

did let me ask you this generally

speaking what did you learn during

that time that you were we deal it were

you mostly in was it mostly drug

trafficking and

we did so we did prostitution we did

human trafficking so we were we helped

out with that on that part of it but

yeah Mo mainly we did we dealt with

drugs and if there was weapons involved

you know buying stolen guns if that came

up stolen property but it was a lot of

it was dealing with the illicit drug did

that change your mind at all about like

the your optimism about humanity no just

dealing with that kind of a person so

often no you know I never really it was

a game you know when you when I when I

thought about it when I really got into

it was nothing more than a game I was

a good guy there was a bad guy and all

it was was I was playing a game and if

you played it well then you did all

right and the reason why I always was

treating it like a game as I never

wanted to lose the family side of it

no because we never we weren't like deep

undercover it's not like we win you know

but you had to live a different

lifestyle well I mean your cat it out

yeah you you're a bigger guy you

have I remember your hair was very long

you had the beard I mean you looked like

you look like you remember the Hells

Angels for a while there yeah right yeah

so your wife was okay with that and she

got used to it yeah it took a while but

it towards the end she actually got she

started liking but you're in that that

guy's there yeah I mean your

your that way because you're trying to

get in with a certain crowd yeah and you

know and so and I actually had some guys

that had done it for a lot of years

prior to going back into that unit and

so they really taught me a lot mm-hmm

and they didn't have long hair they

didn't have all that but they could

talk to anybody and that was one thing

and I've always had that gift I've

always been able to talk to anybody but

you know trying to buy drugs from

somebody and convince them that you're

who you say you are as a whole different

a whole different animal so explain

that or did well there's you know just

having a normal conversation with

somebody is easy you know you have you

you want to be articulate you want to

sound a certain way you want to come

you know be somebody that somebody likes

to talk to you well when you're talking

to drug dealers there's the lingo that

you use the way that you text or the way

that you talk it's very different

mm-hmm you know when you talk about

these guys the obviously you know

there's a lot of you know curse words

and there's a lot of things that are

exchanged to different things that's

just normal conversation with them does

that bring you down at all I mean really

I mean it if you're putting yourself in

that you're in that world constantly

then in that point right did you come

home to your wife and kids and it's just

like thank goodness I mean I've got a

break from this for a little while

sometimes yeah sometimes and it got

really what god olds was just that you

you always had that phone with you to

meet you know cause hey drug dealers work

every single day all day phone would go

off at two o'clock in the morning you'd

have to go from sleeping - okay I

remember what I'm you know who I was

talking to so it just it got I never had

an issue switching back and forth the

issue that I had is if I was with the

family and that phone rang or something

happened being like okay you guys go

away yeah yeah and dad can talk so I can

be this guy for a few minutes yeah

yeah did you ever make any mistakes on

that like forgetting who you were

speaking with no and I never I got lucky

in that sense I never I never did that

it does happen so but I never when I do

that all the time now I just yeah I

think I'm texting someone else and I

send the wrong text yeah so no I kept

that it was it was a I was able to keep

that pretty good and I wasn't there a

long time you know there's a couple

years and in the grand scheme of things

it's not that really wasn't that long so

I never it wasn't something that was

trying to think of the best way I never

really got really into it because I just

didn't I didn't spend a ton of time

there did what's the craziest

story you have from that that time being

ever yeah it's funny when people say

what's the craziest thing because from

it was normal you know I'm so when I

think of craziness you know you just

think of all the probably one of the I

don't know if it's crazy but we were so

we were

getting ready to go serve a search

warrant on a building drug-related it

was an auto shop and we're all just kind

of hanging out it's kind of on those

things where you get everything gets

planned you go to do it and then next

thing you know we're sitting under a

tree two parks just waiting for the

go-ahead because we have to wait mm-hmm

well while we're waiting basically we

get a phone calls like hey this dude

that committed an armed robbery a couple

days ago he just jumped on the city bus

so my whole team jumps in and next thing

you know we're commandeering a city bus

and taking this dude off you know with

rifles and shotguns and everything else

and all these people are kind of just

like what in the world and we just scoop

them up take them off the bus and don't

say a word like okay thanks see you

later and then this dude disappears so I

mean we did we did stuff like that quite

often you know just like grabbing people

they had no idea we were coming the next

thing you know five six dudes jump out

of a van all you know looking like me

with guns and then we just grabbed and

scooped them up and we disappear hmm so

that you know so just stuff like that

just driving I mean we drove everywhere

all over the place because we weren't

just exclusively within our city we had

we worked with a lot of federal agencies

you know we did things with the DEA you

know other three-letter you know

organizations and so we were all over

the place doing different things did

there's this never brought you down at

all I mean you know mentally emotionally

is it what was it taxing or you said it

was a game was it actually fun to you I

mean it was fun it and I think what

really benefited me was I went into it

with quite a few years on and doing

different things and so I had gone

through a transition to where and

it's kind of a transition that a lot of

officers go through you you get in and

everybody tells you don't take your job

home don't take your job home you know

you don't want you don't want that to

affect your family life and so I built

this like just shell around me for so

many years that nothing good could come

in so the good feelings didn't come in

the bad feelings didn't come in and I

was just I was just a very distant cold

person to everybody family kids and so

when I finally when that finally broke I

I and it was in fact it was almost six

years ago next month that that broke and

so when that broke it actually it was

rough for

because it was you didn't I didn't

expect it mm-hmm but once it did then I

then I knew okay I'm good I've matured a

lot a lot a lot of other things happen

about that time and so when I got into

those positions I it was it was just a

game it wasn't a big deal I didn't bring

it home stories were cool we could talk

about it and that's where I think the

biggest thing I would let the wife know

hey this is kind of what we were doing

you know if I could just talking to her

and so it wasn't it wasn't affecting me

that then did bring it out so something

I'm really interested with this is it's

just thinking about like a social

dynamics of that world yeah well you're

in we were talking I've got a friend

that that's a cop was a cop and

and he would you know get a phone call

they'd come in and there let's say that

there was a domestic violence call and

he'd come in and they'd you know usually

grab the guy you know or settle the

situation down so a little bit of

babysitting

a little bit of psychology that had to

be put into place yeah and then but

he'd always come back with these stories

and he just it's like you there's a

certain sense of reality I think with

with being on the street and seeing

firsthand how things can get yeah when

you're living a certain way and making

certain decisions or you're in a certain

culture and so he'd talk a lot about the

family dynamic yeah or you know the

background that a lot of these people

have and so I mean what did you see

in in that world or still see in that

world that that is lacking so much you

know I mean what what's the difference

you know a lot of people would say look

it's who you're born to it's

the situation you're born into you're

kind of doomed in some ways right

because you've got a certain environment

that you're in and therefore there

should be some more tolerance and

understanding of what's going on what

what is missing so much there you

in that world you know and I I can I can

say this I'll yeah in certain aspects

there it doesn't matter where or how you

were born I mean I've been in you know

in some of the worst places that you can

think of and the houses were super clean

the people were very well-mannered and

then I've been in million-dollar

neighborhoods these homes are worth

millions of dollars

and we're there all the time because the

husband and wife just fight and fight

and fight and you know so I think a lot

of it comes down to there there's

usually something underlying there

whether it's alcoholism whether it's

some sort of substance whether it's

pills or whatever it might be there's

there's something that's sometimes and

I'm not going to say all the time but

more likely than not there is that

underlying issue a lot of the times it

would be late in the evening early

morning hours that these things would go

because of the drinking was involved so

they've been drinking for hours and then

that's when you know you're I can't

stand the way that you walk down the

hall or something very minor like that

would take place and then you'd have

these massive blow ups a lot of times

it's just really it's just relationship

issues and whether they don't want to

admit that it's over they would rather

stay and fight and argue and be

miserable then say hey I think it's time

we go our separate ways how often is

alcohol and drugs involved in a

situation probably 90 to 95 percent yeah

whether it's about the drugs or

their yeah they're on the drugs or they

are or they've been drinking or yeah

yeah and that's what my

understanding is a when you see let's

say a young guy that is dealing drugs is

they're typically are you able to see a

situation where maybe they're their

family life is not what it should be is

that usually what you see or do you

usually see a broad spectrum of

everything anything I mean it really can

you we you see it from just any number

of you

standpoints really yeah you get those

people that that's their that's where

they were grown up that's how they were

raised you know the neighborhood that

that's just what you did sometimes it's

just hey I have to feed a habit and I

just found out that if I sell some of

this stuff I can get more money and it

feeds my habit and I can just keep doing

this some people to just hey I made a

lot of money and I'm gonna stay I'm

gonna keep doing it mm-hmm so a lot of

it just sit it varies

you know from person to person and so I

there's not I can't there's a lot of it

yeah it is cultural there's a lot of it

that is you know the how and what you

know the way they were raised but we've

done it we I've dealt with just

everything you can think of and I don't

just a decision that somebody makes

whatever the worst issues right now I

mean we hear a lot about the opioid

crisis for example right now we've got

really good friends that their son had a

very very close call and I know other

have other friends where there's I know

that there's been issues especially with

the kids but actually one was with the

mom

but this opioid crisis and because you

have you do run across that a lot or

yeah so a lot of it and it's kind of a

natural progression if you talk to if

you can get somebody to actually really

talked to hey how did you cause you don't

just go to heroin and heroin is pretty

nasty it's not something that you just

wind up like hey yeah I'm gonna try that

there's always a progression and

usually it starts with a prescription

pill that they can come addicted to and

as they like yourself it could be

anybody right anybody and that's usually

what it boils down to is it is just

about anybody so you have so they're

taking the pills and they're taking the

pills and you know when they first came

out doctors just right in those scripts

hey cool no problem but then once they

get cut off and coming off of an opioid

if it's terrible you talk to anybody

that has come off of it they are

physically in pain and a lot of them

would rather choose death than go

through the withdrawal symptoms so the

next thing somebody tells them hey

heroin is a lot cheaper and the highs

way better and so they'll usually start

hey they'll find someone you don't need

prescription and you don't need a

prescription so they'll get it and

they'll usually it starts off they'll

tried to smoke it and they'll you know

and so they get that and then it just it

just becomes a snowball effect yeah and

it just gets worse gets way worse

and I my understanding is that that

some people are just pre-programmed

biologically for some of that some

people just they hit at once and they're

done I mean it's like some yeah and some

people are not affected as much by it

and so there there's a physiologically

when there are certain things that we do

within our life that when you get such a

massive dump of endorphins and dopamine

that you your body's like that was

awesome I want to do that again however

you'll never get back to that level of

feeling that again so when somebody does

take a drug that's why it's called

chasing the high the first time they get

high your body dumps all these

endorphins in your in your brain in

your body and you feel so good but you

can never get back to that level again

because it just naturally doesn't do

that mm-hmm the only other thing that

does that is sex that's the same

thing so sex and drugs within the you

know the fizzy lock and roll no yeah a

little bit righto throw that in there

but it you you'll never get back to that

first time the way that you felt because

your body just cannot produce those

chemicals and the endorphins to get you

back up there so they will continue to

do whatever they can to mimic the first

time that they got high whether that's

up and hey you know what woman instead

of doing my normal and try a little bit

more or I'm gonna throw something else

in it you know now I'm gonna start

injecting it and then they're always

trying to get back to that hey I

remember when and they're chasing the

dragon so that's I guess that's not

something I've never thought about so

the so the addiction part of it is

it's not just your body saying yeah I

need something right now it's a matter

of I want to get back to that state yes

where I was just feel that again and in

Utah there I mean I I've interviewed a

lot of people and that's kind of and

anybody that's really honest that they

will tell you that yeah I'm just I all I

want to do is get I just want to

that again and feel that again even

though they can't and there's like guys

they keep trying different ways to get

back to that high mm-hmm and they can't

yeah did you come across you come across

you said one of the things that you deal

with his prostitution yeah is there do

you deal a lot with let's call it

let me understand your terminology here

if I talk about human trafficking right

are you including that with prostitution

directly or it just can be prostitution

so when I say that I use those terms

very separately yeah okay you guys

that's how I figure yeah yeah you have

the women that they do it all on their

own

that's how some of them that's how they

make their living some of them make a

very good living doing that they are not

trafficked by anybody they do that just

for themselves then you have the people

of women or you can sometimes you know a

lot of cases young men that get caught

up in this and somebody just catches

them right at the right time and they

basically become basically enslave to

that person and they're told hey if you

leave me I'll kill you they feed them

dope whatever they have to do to keep

them and all they do is they just they

just pimp them out and just take them

from place to place and usually it's in

pretty sleazy motels or you know hotels

close to freeways airports different

things and they just they just keep them

so I've looked into this a little bit

and so for the benefit of the

audience here so in other words someone

could be you know technically saying

okay I'm going to be this is what I'm

gonna do and this is part of what I is

how I'm making a living but in a sense

as you said in in some ways they're

enslaved to it instead they're you know

they're the some may not be but some

may be especially people that are

brought into the country from other

places it's like hey if you want to be

able to stay here or yeah that's

happened you're going this is what

you're going to do yeah and so when

people are saying human trafficking

which is something that comes up a lot

now that term in your mind it's it that

has to be somewhat of someone who is

cold

worst at least yeah the owner would say

right they really don't have a choice

that somebody else is making that choice

for them and we and I've part of the

job that we had was we were tasked to

work with our human trafficking unit and

that was one of the things that we did

as we tried to find individuals that

were in that basically were victims and

so we would go out and we would you know

give phone numbers and start texting

different people and our whole job was

to find these types of people and get

them out of that lifestyle and we were

able to find a couple we were able to

track him down and we got him and they

admitted yeah I'm not free to leave the

guys staying in the room across the hall

and whatever and so we were able to get

them out and hopefully they decided to

get themselves help and didn't come back

to it a lot of times they were just

women that hey I'm just looking to make

some money and that's all I'm doing

do you see it as a growing problem human

trafficking yeah it is a growing problem

and I think you know maybe it's not a

growing problem it's a problem that now

has really been brought to the forefront

there's a lot of nonprofit groups that

are really big on this one of them is

the operation underground railroad and

the guy that founded that he was worked

for the government and he basically got

tired of having his hand tied by red

tape and bureaucracy and he was like I'm

done so he started this nonprofit I

think he's LD yes he is yeah and so and

so he started it and that's all he does

he still works very closely with

agencies and different things but his

whole thing is I'm not gonna allow

another person to disappear yeah I think

his background was I read a little on

him a few years ago I think that his

background was he was in the military or

or in a government somewhere in

government yeah and I think he was

overseas at first he went and he saw

just especially kids little kids that

were trafficked correct constantly and

it just he could never get it out of his

system he's just like so yeah and then

he there was there was and I believe it

was in Haiti I think was the one that

actually my that's right and he was and

he's and because they were delayed by

obviously you know just

going through the hoops and doing

everything that they're that they had to

do in the red tape they weren't

able to actually find the kids that he

was looking for yeah and if in again I'm

paraphrasing I've read I've read a lot

and some fact I we have mutual friends

that are very good friends with him and

so we kind of got a little bit insight

to that as well and there's just like

yeah I just can't do that anymore I had

to find a way to just make it happen and

do it right there and he's been very

successful with it I think that

something like that I mean the

satisfaction that guy must have I mean

obviously he sees so much so many

horrible things and so you're exposed to

it all the time but to make a

difference in in that way with that

specific issue I think that that's got

to be pretty fulfilling I mean that's

good yeah it's got to make you feel

pretty good yeah not to get too

political on this at all but so with

the drugs and with the human trafficking

one of the big political issues right

now is building a wall on the on the

border now we're a border state here you

aside from immigration is from what

you've been able to you know if you were

intelligence gathering in your job would

that make a difference do you think or

not as far as the human trafficking and

the drugs I mean we obviously we have to

say I think on our side here because

most of the drugs come from the south

and south of the border right is there's

a huge demand there is right I mean we

create a massive demand for these things

here and that's our own issue yeah is

creating the demand and so now there's

demand and supply there's both sides of

it and we seem to focus a lot more on

the supply side but obviously I mean it

would help I mean if there was oh it

would help there it would because we

have a lot of us just brought over about

on foot you have these traffickers that

they pay people hey you're gonna carry

this from point A to point B you're

gonna get it across the border you're

gonna wait there somebody's gonna come

pick it up and you're gonna come back

mhm and that's all that they do so if

there was it would it would slow it down

would it stop it no

I mean that's one thing that the drug

dealers have is a lot of money

and a lot of resources and they will

always find a way to get it here if

there's the demand they will find a way

to get it here no all right so changing

gears a little bit here one of the

things that's happened in the last

several years is a kind of a cultural

shift a little bit I mean at least

partially in the US on an attitude

toward cops and it's kind of strange I

mean to me it is but going back you know

20 I'll see how many years now it's

I've been reading some stats knowing

that I was going to be speaking with you

and it was in the 90s that President

Clinton signed the crime bill the

massive crime bill and part of that was

the reason for that was is that violent

crime had had that was increasing by 5%

a year yeah it peaked I think it was 87

or something like that or somewhere back

in their late 80s and so 5% every year

this the violent crime rate is

increasing and so there's support from

the inner city the African-American

communities their support from Congress

and the Senate overwhelmingly passed and

they end up putting a hundred thousand

new police officers across the country

with partial federal funding to help

support this with the cities and the

counties and the state set cetera well

crime went down violent crime went down

I don't want the rest of the crime but I

think that went down that might have you

actually increased because there's more

arrests yeah but violent crime dropped

at that time and I don't think that the

especially in the inner cities that

everybody got what they wanted out of

that that crime bill a lot of people

wanted a lot more preventive measures

but overall right there was a sense that

this was a great thing and violent crime

goes down and that's the number-one

statistic that people are gonna look at

but incarcerations went up and now we're

on like it's like kind of like we're on

the flip side you know we want to have

our cake and eat it too it seems where

it's like okay

there's all this incarceration people

are being put into jail for you know for

for smoking a joint and should they

really go to jail for that and then the

whole three-strikes thing for mandatory

life sentence and there were some pretty

there were some pretty rough things that

went along with that but there seems now

from the same people that supported that

there seems to be a major backlash now

where it's like well now we don't eat we

don't want the cops here we don't want

people in certain areas and there's a

big highlight on abuse and what I

mean what you're in that world what

do you see happening there well I think

what happened for a lot of years

especially in the 90s when you had that

especially when you're talking like the

inner cities California in New York the

coast and different places Chicago the

gang problem was massive and then the

gay and it just started getting really

bad and so that was part of that

initiative as they actually started

charging actual gain statutes with it

and what that does is it enhances a

crime if you do something to further a

street gang you automatically get

additional sentencing on top of whatever

else you would normally get so that

was kind of where it started what people

didn't have was you didn't have cell

phone cameras you didn't have body

cameras you didn't have all these things

that highlighted that sometimes police

work gets pretty dirty you know

sometimes if you get into fights

with people and it's not pretty and when

that really started becoming more public

a lot of people were really upset like

hey that you guys you know that this is

bad and it's like a sometimes it is and

I'm not saying there's obviously times

where they go where yeah an officer

crosses the line yeah you sure and you

have to deal with that but there's a lot

of things that we do that when we talk

about it our training is very simple we

stop fights as soon as we possibly can

in order to limit the amount of injuries

that officers are going to sustain the

suspect is going to sustain whatever and

the sooner that that has stopped the

less the injuries you somebody has and

when you see somebody get punched in the

face or you see something happen

it's it we all watch UFC it's violent

people bleed things happen but we also

train that hey look if somebody is you

know at this level

violence we're here we're never the same

because if we're the same we're gonna

lose so we have to be a little bit

higher but then we have to be able to

drop it right back down the minute that

that is taken care of so that's the so

that's the biggest thing so give me an

example of that what would that be a lot

of people like oh well that guy just had

a knife so take out your taser well a

knife and a Taser two very different

things the Taser has a failure rate of

50% that is a study they fail feet

that's pretty hot time it's very high

because a lot of things that's not good

odds no it's not and so and the

reason why it does that is if you're

wearing there it almost has to be

perfect you have to have the perfect

spread on the prongs you have to be able

to do this and if somebody is chemically

enhanced through drugs or other things

sometimes it just doesn't work or they

can defeat it or whatever it is so we

up our level of force and yeah okay we

shot somebody that was threatening

somebody else with a knife well yeah

it's sometimes that happens and if

they're not gonna listen if we're

telling them to drop the knife and we're

asking them to do things and they don't

listen you know we can we can't say

please a thousand times and hope mm time

that works so there's a lot of things

that come into play and a lot of it is

and you know it's you look across the

country there's issues that come up in

certain areas obviously a lot of it is

race related there's a lot of things

that come into that but we are a

responding force I mean we are not

proactive when we're doing things a lot

of times do we go somebody has already

called the police and we're showing up

to it now there's time so you might be

just right the right place at the right

time and you see something happening but

96 to 99 percent of the time we're

responding to something that's already

taken place and then we're responding to

whatever behavior is being displayed

when we get there but needing to at

least in the very short term escalate a

little bit right yeah so and that thing

is we're mean it's force-on-force

that is correct and so and that's where

I think the other where we're getting

this is now you have everybody's a news

reporter whether you're on Facebook

live-streaming on Instagram whatever it

is everybody has a platform now so it

doesn't matter who you are as long as

you have that device you immediately

become

a member of the media and it gets used

well what we don't have is facts and

that's one of the biggest issues is you

whole context or context so a lot of

these issues are getting just blasted

into the media before any investigation

is done before any facts or any context

is released and then three months down

the road when the entire thing comes out

there might be a you know you'll get

10-15 days of this being blasted on the

news and then once all the facts come

out you might have just a very small

three minute you know news reports like

oh well actually this actually is what

happened and then they move on to

something else so there there's part of

that in a lot of things people for

whatever reason the police work in

general they expect them to go into

communities and fix those communities

and we can't now we want to partner

with communities we want to help but

healing in and all that comes from

within the communities themselves and we

have to find a way to bridge the

disconnect between the communities and

those that work in law enforcement and

come together and say okay we have

issues within your community whether

it's a Hispanic community Asian

community native-American whatever it is

and law enforcement there's got to be

something in place there well it's

interesting you bring up you bring it

because it is a racial issue oftentimes

at least that seems to be the tension

Yeah right out there is for a tout to be

e or female yeah right in other words

it's like here's the big bad bully cop

on one end and then here's a the camera

of how they're treating this woman of

course who knows how unruly she's been

but or it's a racial issue racial issue

and so what ends up being portrayed it

seems or that certain people try to

portray is that it is an oppressive yeah

issue here that the police are

oppressive and they're the bullies yeah

and of course there are going to be

examples where like we said that people

cross the line what I don't like is that

there's this whole narrative that's

that's kind of an umbrella right thrown

over the whole thing yeah

that the police are bad because that's

really what you're saying it is if I

turn on the news

the cable news at night which I don't do

but if I did you know that's and

something there was a story about the

police it's gonna be negative and

and it's going to be you you know and of

course we don't hear every great thing

that happened that day across the

country where police intervened and

helped a situation whether it's helping

a kid or whether it's stopping a really

bad guy you don't hear about it you

nobody hears all you hear about is the

most scandalous thing that happens that

happened that day somewhere and got

caught on videos it's already yeah its

clickbait I mean that's that that's all

it is and it's a really unfortunate

thing does that affect how does it

affect you and you and your colleagues

today well personally it did it never

affected me I I went out I did the same

job it didn't matter what does it but

does it affect it does affect policies

and it does absolutely unfortunately the

cultural shift does affect policies and

that's nationwide that it doesn't really

matter what it is now some of those

policies need to be implemented I'm not

saying all of them are bad some of them

need to be implemented in some of those

neat some things need to be changed

however a lot of the policies are being

a lot of you know things that happened

there they're changing because of the

pressure that they're getting from you

know the communities that they live in

now that's one of the biggest issues is

a lot of those communities if we would

bring them in and just discuss hey this

is why we do the things that we do these

says this is the training that we have

and if there's a training if there's

something we need to refresh our

training by all means we will do that

but this is what they were trained to do

and this is why they did that so there

needs to be there needs to be something

in place that will allow leaders in the

community and I'm not talking about

vocal minorities I'm talking about the

grandma that runs her neighborhood

because everybody knows if you cross

grandma you're in trouble and law

enforcement be able to come together

because those are the real community

leaders the ones that everybody in the

neighborhood respects the ones that

everybody knows that those are the

people we need to get in and speak to

and say how do we help you resolve some

of these issues because we are not we

are not problems

solvers in that sense the things that we

we are we are sworn in to enforce laws

uphold the Constitution of the state

that we serve and do those types of

things and I think that's where a lot of

this whole protect and serve came from

because all that was was a motto

developed by Los Angeles Police

Department that was it it's just their

motto well for some reason that became

the standard for law enforcement was

like your jobs to protect and serve that

sort of says now it's just a model that

was created and then backed we have we

have constitutional law that says as

police officers we have no right to act

at all if we see somebody getting

stabbed shot murdered whatever we don't

have to do anything now we are we

absolutely will there's no that's reason

why everybody got in this job was to do

that but we have no right to act at all

so there's a lot of things that needs to

be you know that mean you don't have a

right to act

we ordered obligation excuse me you

don't have an obligation to act so let

me let me clarify that so meaning it

like said hey if we get there and an

officer is there's something violent

going down and he doesn't do anything

then he comes in and tries to render

first aid he's not held accountable for

for that now again there's not too many

of us that are gonna just stand by what

happened but that should that's just

because that's the makeup of 99% of

people that got into this job is that's

what they are here to do it seems to me

that that there's it's kind of like it's

like with everything you know you have a

a there's a spectrum that you know at

first you know like in the 90s you go

back and say okay now there's all these

new policemen that are on foot and their

crime goes down and everybody's happy

and that's great and then but of

course when you when you kind of take

from one area and you put it over here

well you have taken from another area

yes and where you're taking from is

maybe the tolerance and the strictness

of the law and the enforcement so if you

put a lot more cops on the on the on the

beach so to speak you're going to have

more arrests and as population increases

as all those things continue to increase

your number of contacts with the police

in general go up your crime rate will

either stay steady or also or shift you

said yeah violent crime may have dropped

a little bit but drugs became a little

bit more than relevant you have other

crimes that you know come in burglary

well what it wouldn't it be

wouldn't it be though it maybe I don't

maybe this isn't the case but it seems

to me that you're gonna get a lot of the

other blue collar crimes but that stops

the violent crimes

it seems or might help in stopping some

of the violent crimes I think what we

and I think what the biggest thing is

you look at homicide rates homicide

rates have gone down mm-hmm but AG

assaults and the serious assaults have

stayed about the same because you have

you have medical advancements that we

didn't have 20 years ago that hey yeah

they might have died 20 years ago so to

counted as a homicide now it's

interesting an assault mm-hmm or an

aggravated assault but they're able to

be saved

medically so medical you know the

medical treatment has improved enough

that now we have somebody that maybe I

said 20 years would have died but due to

the medical care they received now

they've lived and so it's not a homicide

it's an aggravated assault so they even

though they might say yeah okay homicide

rates have gone down the assault rate

has stayed fairly steady I mean it's

gone down a little bit but it has stayed

fairly steady and then the other thing

that we got into that is even a totally

separate topic is how all these crimes

are reported they're all reported by the

FBI and they have reporting standards so

what I might write in my report doesn't

meet their standards so it's gonna get

changed when they do their

official reporting hmm so there's also

that pretty significant disconnect there

there's a filter yes yeah in the

statistics absolutely and when that goes

national it goes to a national agency

yeah that's interesting all right what

about now you said that you enjoy

usually its game to you when you've gone

out especially undercover and but that

may not be the case with everybody and

all the time

PTSD

is that is that an issue that comes up a

lot and in the job there I mean I can I

imagine that some I would imagine most

cops don't deal with well they deal with

a lot of conflict but probably don't

deal how many cops are gonna deal with

someone where they've actually had to

shoot someone or well and that's and

that's not as prevalent but when

you talk about the post-traumatic stress

that comes from it a lot of that comes

from events that you know they the baby

that drowned the you know the thing

you see a lot of see a lot of stuff and

and I talked to I had a conversation

just recently with somebody about this

like think about somebody that was in

the military that they got deployed for

six months they were in combat they saw

a lot of stuff maybe that was the only

deployment they went on was that six

months and they come back and they have

that post-traumatic stress now you had

somebody that's been in a law

enforcement agency the size of the one

that I'm in and you've been there for 15

16 years yeah it might not be the same

as combat but over that course of 15 16

years I can't even tell you the number

of extremely violent homicides I've been

to baby deaths drownings you know other

things that are a constant throughout my

career that still have that same impact

sure so it might not be it's not the

same by any stresses imagination a lot

of it doesn't even come from being

involved in in a shooting a lot of it's

from stuff that you know people really

don't you know they like you even look

like the shooting that took place in the

Connecticut school all the officers went

in there saw all those kids that were

shot and killed most of them suffered

some pretty significant traumatic stress

which I can totally you know sympathize

with but you have a lot of people saying

well that's the job you signed up for so

you should be able to handle that well

that that's totally different yeah we

knew we knew that we'd see some things

but it's very different when you

actually see something like that and

I and I tell people yeah as like you

know there was one call there's

calls it I've gone to that really stick

out a lot of them kind of just blend in

together but there are certain events

that have that have taken place that I

remember and I recall very

very vividly and it's hard to do your

job in those cases like we had a she was

high school aged somebody broke into her

house assaulted her and in fact when

they salted her she dislocated her hip

so when me and the guy that got there

first we went to clear the house she was

laying in a puddle of her own urine

could not move and it's worth stepping

over her to make sure nobody's in the

house she's grabbing at our pant leg

screaming for help and you just have to

say we will be back even though

everything inside of you wants to stand

there and hold her hand we have a job to

do so when somebody screaming you know

to help you and not leave her and you

have to leave or even though it's only

gonna be for a short time and come back

it's that's hard you know or you know

some other things that happened it's

hard sure so it still it stays with you

so that's something to consider I mean I

think when you know we look at the

attitude of you know supporting your

local law enforcement is it's not just a

matter of going in and having the

courage to use your training and to

bring to take care of a situation of a

conflict and do all the dirty work

for us because that's really what it is

right the cops are out doing the dirty

work for us so we don't have to see

those things yeah but it's it is yeah I

can totally see that it's a it's a

matter of look this is this is something

that builds up we have we've seen a lot

of things here and there's a cost to

that and for a lot of years it was just

ignored you were just told hey you're a

big boy you deal with it and that's why

the average life for a lot of years for

an officer after retirement was only

five years heart attack stroke whatever

it was that's all you got was five years

mhm well fast forward now to just

several years ago there's now a bill

that was passed by the state of Arizona

said hey officers need to be treated for

this stuff because it's you know hey

they have that right to be treated

so that's where I think you know ended

there's a lot of guys that hey yeah all

they need to do is talk to somebody hey

if they can talk to somebody they may

take

care of and you can salvage that career

and you can salvage that individual

because most of time just becomes hey

how do you deal with stuff like that

well you usually you turn to alcohol you

turn to other things to numb it and do

whatever you can do to sleep you see

that quite a bit absolutely yeah

absolutely and so and that's where you

know the change is really shifted

now is like hey we have to figure out a

way to make to make it better and

really take care of somebody that's been

involved in a critical incident and

that's and that's kind of what that is

that critical incident part like I said

and it could be any number of things and

it and every person is affected by

different stuff so that's where you know

so you can't just put a blanket

statement of over hey this person saw

and was fine and you went to it and

somehow that affected you well we're all

wired a little bit differently well

you've all had different experiences I

mean you may have seen something similar

already to that and now you've seen it

again whereas another cop may not have

had that experience you know it's new to

them or what about the families of the

cops then it's moving with that it's

really hard I mean you step-step will be

very honest with you man we went through

some pretty rough times like I said

there was a lot of those years when I

talk about that shell that I that I just

formed around myself too when that

happened there was there was you know I

was very distant I was not pleasant to

be around and I'll admit it I was I was

not fun a fun person to be but it's just

your way of dealing it was my way of

dealing with and it wasn't the right way

because instead of you know hey don't

take the job home don't take the job

home well I didn't take anything home

mm-hmm you know I didn't come home and

so instead of you know being able to

talk to Steph about what was going on

which I can now there's just no there

was nothing so like I said once that

broke and it when it broke it almost

it destroyed who I was at the time

but it also basically saved who I was as

well so that was that was kind of a

pretty big deal for me but everybody's

got to go everybody has to deal with it

their own way how did you deal with it

well I started talking to Steph I went

to counseling for quite a while my dad

obviously had been through Vietnam and

had anything that I had seen he had seen

and everything that I was every time I

called him and I had something going on

he had something that he could relate

you know relate to me and in some way so

that was that was how initially or I

shouldn't say initially in the end

that's how I dealt with it mm-hmm you

know yeah I drank a lot for a while I

started drinking a lot and that was an

issue for me especially when it was like

hey I'm gonna wake up in the morning and

first thing that I felt like doing was

grabbing a beer and ten o'clock in the

morning that was an issue so yeah the

same thing you know hey that it's the

only way that I could sleep was to numb

it numb it and I still don't sleep I

don't sleep well and Steph calls it the

twitches like other times where like

when I she builds a blanket fort around

her with pillows because she's like you

just start twitching and I've been hit a

couple times and so she goes when I know

that's happening I just have to let it

work itself out and then you're good

mm-hmm so it's never goes away it's

always there we just have to learn to

deal with it and talk to somebody

what does the church help with that at

all

you know it does and so that that's

another thing is we talk a lot about

being a whole person you have to be

balanced you have to have that work life

that family life but there has to be

something that sinners you whatever

whatever that may be whether that in in

October I think I'd really don't care

you know

what religion you're a part of what your

belief system is but there has to be

something that grounds you and yeah that

that did that that does actually help a

lot because I can put everything into

perspective for myself and I can look at

things and I can say okay hey you know

what this it's I have a I have a

different perspective on things and that

really does help it does help with you

know for me mm-hmm you know as far as

comfort or is it it's more an

identity issue for you know what I mean

is it give you it is comforting I mean

like I said there's a lot of there's a

lot of things you see you know day in

and day out that they said you forget a

lot about you know that whatever you

know whatever it might be um but to have

an eternal perspective if you will it

gives you it just it kind of just lets

me sit back and go you say okay look

people are gonna make their decisions

they're gonna make their choices in life

whatever they may be

I cannot affect a lot of those but what

I can't what I what I can choose to

affect is the way that I react to those

things and how I look at them and where

do I go to find peace where do I go to

feel happy because a lot of times

especially if you've been you know just

exposed to just some pretty horrific

things you've got to find something that

makes you happy

mm-hmm and not and not you know hiding

it not masking it but you what truly

makes you happy and whatever that may be

you have to have that you have to

well if not then you're gonna drink a

lot yeah you're gonna drink I mean

you're gonna cause you have to have

something yeah right I mean it's just

the human nature says I've got a I've

got to fill this void here with some for

something and yeah and so you know III

think that I've had not experiences

maybe of what I've seen but of just

trials and

and I've gone through that eventually

even when I've ignored it if I'm

centered on certain principles and

perspectives pretty important and that's

and I think that's the biggest thing as

a perspective of the whole it changes

your emotions I mean it changes your

emotions it changes your state of

mind and it's kind of like you know okay

you can go through these things and you

can have these pictures in your mind and

they're horrible and but I think it's

like what you said it's not that they go

away but if maybe I can get some kind of

perspective and context and grounding

yeah right with something then it's not

all chaos and it's and it's not you know

and it's funny to bring up the word

chaos a so my sergeant that I have now

he borrowed a book when he went on

vacation of mine and the whole premise

of that book is order in chaos that if

you don't have any type of order you

live in a constant state of chaos

whatever that may be and you cannot live

and you can't thrive in chaos and I

think that's and as you bring that up

that's what that's what the church gives

me is that order mm-hmm you know that's

what combats the chaos you know I have

that order I have in my home in my

personal life if those things are in

order you can deal with the chaos if not

you get consumed and the chaos never

goes away right it just doesn't go away

I think that's part of the process

that's actually one of the

taglines of my other podcast is

ordering chaos I put order first always

but it's kind of like you know I'm

even going through the idea of the story

of the creation and just everything just

the way the universe works creation

works it's order coming in and

entering into chaos and trying to take

the chaos and manage it which means

creating more order right and that's all

that's happening and if you go through

the story of the creation it's a matter

of okay I've got light coming into the

darkness and then I've got an order of

separating the water from the

the land right and then I've got

categories of plants and categories of

animals and eventually separation of men

and woman right but it's all a matter of

it's all creating some type of an order

as you pass through the caste but the

chaos is going to be inevitable and you

you kind of plunge into chaos in

your job yeah we and so like in Batman

right you when he was talking about

after in the very last one he's like you

can't plunge your hands in the filth and

may you know and bring them out and be

cleaned today they're always

dirty mm-hmm

and that kind of that kind of like

resonated with me a little bit and I was

like you know that that's pretty that's

a pretty accurate statement mm-hmm if

you really get into this job for the

right really reasons and you really work

hard you do get you just get thrown

into the filth you really do and you can

never really get clean hmm it's always

with you and there's only been a couple

of days in my career that like I'd never

thought I was gonna get come out of it

like ever

and it wasn't violent it wasn't crazy it

was just pretty it was just one of those

things that it just it was for me

personally it was just soul-crushing and

it was and I said when it happened I had

no defense for it

none no what do you mean by the defense

on that yet you had no way of hey you

had no way to you hadn't you had no

experience with it and you had no

knowledge of how to handle yeah and when

any was so unexpected it wasn't even

like I was going to something that I was

preparing myself for it just was so

unexpected that it was it was it

literally just it sucked everything out

of me and the way that's ride

everything inside we broke into a

million pieces and there was nothing

left mm-hmm pure chaos and all it

did was

the way that my dad described it is he's

like that event just brought just a tiny

bit of humanity back into your soul that

you had been missing for so long that it

just brought you back to basically being

a normal person again

and that's really what it was and it

hadn't been that way for so long that I

didn't recognize that mm-hmm and so

there was a lot of things that you know

took place that I just wasn't expecting

so let me get this straight so you

go through this horrible experience

basically and you know the funny thing

is when I look back on it and I it

wasn't even horrible like I remember

almost everything about it mm-hmm

everything wasn't even horrible but it

was it was so it was horrible I'm not

him say wasn't horrible it was but at

the same time like what I saw and

the things that that happened to me

it was just I couldn't even describe

it at the time it was losing I was like

I didn't know what I was to do you know

and then immediately after that so to

give you some context so again I

September 23rd 2013 to you another day

another day

normal day not a big deal I get a call

from sergeant say hey need to come to

hospital and help out on a call was he

my call wasn't big deals like alright

cool so I show up and it was a it was a

little girl her name is violet and she

was five months old on that day her

father had thrown her on to headfirst

onto a concrete floor and shattered her

skull that's why she was in the hospital

so my sergeant was like your job is to

stand outside this hospital door and if

he shows up there's a bed waiting for

him that was my old job mm-hmm

was wait for him to show up he didn't

but I was like all right cool so I'm

stand outside the door the primary

officers doing his investigation the

nurse comes in and the mother who was

not involved in this and whatsoever

completely inconsolable told the nurse

hey I need to go use the restroom so the

nurse took the took violet and she went

to the restroom and she's like officer I

need your help real quick supposing all

right cool you know whatever it wasn't a

big deal except I just need you to speak

to her to see if she can move her eyes

like okay so is as softly as I could as

tenderly as I could I just started

talking to her I said her name nothing

really happened so I reached up and I

just said her name again I just kind of

touched her cheek a little bit and when

I did that she reached up I can remember

how her cheek felt I could remember

everything about her well she just

grabbed onto my finger and held it to

her face and her eyes just she looked

right in my face that was it and she

just held on to my finger and I stayed

there until mom came back and for

whatever reason that just I don't know

no clue why but that's still you know

you could see her head was swollen she

had obviously her skull was pretty

pretty damaged and it just it just broke

me

it broke me so I leave the hospital room

and as I'm leaving the room we had an

officer that was suffering from ALS and

I see the chief at the time and a bunch

of other guys walk by and they just grab

me and like you need to come with me so

I stand out and I go upstairs to where

they took him and I stood outside his

room while he passed away and his mom

his family his wife everybody was

walking by me in the room out of the

room in the room at the room and every

single time at one point his mom stopped

and just goes every time I look at you I

see my son dad same thing never met him

never worked with the officer I knew him

never worked with him but I stood

outside that room for hours until he

officially passed all same day Wow and

then after he passed away they pulled us

into a room talk to us for a little bit

and then Hey all right officer your jobs

done go to work and back to work Ella

and that's your job and that's my job

that's all of our jobs so when I

think about that like I said it's not

like it was crazy

there was nothing crazy about it but the

way that my dad described he said that

little girl just put a little bit of

your soul back in you that you were

missing and I hadn't felt anything like

that ever while I was working like I

said I'd been on I don't know how many

homicides I'd been to I had told people

their family members had been dead I had

done so many other things and for

whatever reason that little girl at that

time did us just did it you know wow

that's amazing

well maybe just the innocence you know

there's throbbing just yeah drawing you

back out of the chaos yeah into that

innocence and like I said I six years

and I can recall everything everything

you got to write a book all your

experiences right I would that's amazing

Joe those are some amazing amazing

stories last thing if you had your

wish list on the on the for the for the

police force for the police nationwide

what would you wish that people knew is

it kind of what you've gone over here

today or what do you what do you

want people to know about your job and

what you guys do every day it the

biggest thing I think that everybody you

know it's like look we have no

pretext on a lot of things that we deal

with and so I was up and I was a

field trainer for a lot of years and so

a lot of things that I told the newer

officers is like hey you have to

remember that whether you pulled

somebody over and they've never been

pulled over before or you're going to an

accident you're going to a burglary 90%

of the things we do we deal with the

worst day of that person's life to that

point they said they've never been in a

car accident before their brand-new car

got totaled their house was broken

whatever it may be that potentially is

the worst day of that person's life for

us it's nothing for us it is you know

this is every single day but on the flip

side of that you know we have to have

that compassion for them a lot of times

you got to remember hey yeah we did pull

you over but take a deep breath

figure out what's going on before you

immediately point blame or whatever it

may be that compassion goes both ways

I said the minute I left that hospital I

went right back to work nobody knew what

I dealt with before so maybe maybe it

wasn't I wasn't the best at

communicating maybe it wasn't you know

whatever it may have been got to realize

it there's a lot of times that what we

we get done we go right back to work so

yeah you know what they want us to treat

people with compassion and respect all

those things it needs to be also you

know the same way sure you know cause I

mean that's the thing and if we if we

can do that to each other a lot of the

issues that we have will just go away

well everybody's an individual you know

yes treat everyone is an individual and

you know that's one of the things that

talk a lot about is the collective

versus the individual I mean once you

put everybody is just a cop right as in

this group and you start getting an idea

or a narrative about the group then

you're not Joe anymore no right yeah

you're just whatever that thought is of

that group that you have yeah and

that's a difficult thing to deal with

and you know everybody's an individual

everybody's a human being and everybody

has a lot of experiences and problems

and issues and you know I worry a little

bit about right now I think we're moving

more and more in everyway politics

everything into kind of this collective

yes idea of everybody's in a group and

and I'm gonna treat you like you're in

the group and it just takes humanity

away from everything and you've got to

talk you have to deal with people on an

individual level

absolutely and respect that they have

their own agency well I appreciate your

time Joe this has been amazing that

story the little girl's gonna stick with

me for a long time that's very touching

so thanks for coming thanks for having

me and maybe we'll do it again sometime

yeah appreciate it