Cwic Show- Faithful Gay LDS Convert

Craig Newsome describes growing up in a strict, religious home in New Zealand. He shares his journey from Christianity to atheism, to Buddhism, then his introduction to the LDS Church through, ironically, online anti-Mormon sources. He describes his conversion story, discusses gay policies in the church, and talks about his desire to have God in his life and how he has reconciled with Him. Craig is an active member of the church and his story is an important one for those struggling with reconciling LGBTQ issues and the LDS Church.

 

 

Podcast Links:

Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cwic-media/id1428167000

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3BNjs4EJqo0iK4LURdTPDb 

so I've just got to be careful that I

don't say like that was I knew exactly

where I was gonna cut it would have been

fine

[Music]

so Craig I mean take us back again here

you grew up as a Jehovah's Witness in

New Zealand correct yep okay and so tell

me a little bit about that so yeah sorry

my mum studied with the witnesses when I

was a little little tiny catch so I

think I'd like I really had a really

strong awareness of God mm-hmm from a

really little age River that was the

witnesses or with it was just me who

knows but um I definitely remember their

grow up and the witnesses didn't really

participate fully and nurse and she mum

and dad got divorced when I was seven

and she cut about within a year or

probably just over a year she got

together with another guy in he moved

and he wasn't a nice man at all so I

think because of this I would have been

about 10 years old or 11 years old

and I was like walking down to the

Kingdom Hall which was sustained the

road to go to the meetings and say and I

think you know I think personally where

was because I was definitely really a

believer but I think also there was a

kind of escape from the home a rough

home life okay

so that was all gods and the Imam kind

of got baptized into the witnesses maybe

by the time I was about 14 but she used

to hate the door the door work and all

that so she kind of she was kind of an

but not a hundred percent and I was kind

of going and you know going all on my

own

a lot of the time only so you so you

took an initiative to go to church by

yourself I thought yeah so you know when

did you feel or did you feel the

conflict between you know church going

and being a gay man at what point did

you kind of say wait a minute this isn't

gonna work

yeah well I definitely look I remember

being really really little like

a prepubescent and knowing that you know

all the other boys were crushing on

girls and I was crashing crushing on you

know boys and you know I was always

dreaming of being their princess you

know rather than the prince but I didn't

I didn't head language for it because we

were because the witnesses are such

course not cloistered entirely but they

are very very you know they only know

other witnesses and you only noisy stuff

and but you know you don't there's a

whole lot of stuff that you don't watch

on telly and you know so I didn't have a

language for a bit by the time I was 16

definitely I knew that there was

something really wrong with me and I had

a best friend we would be screens and we

kind of had coming out to each other

post-16 but there was never anything

like you know funny going on between us

but we definitely would were you know

talking about you know the fact that we

knew that we were attracted to mean and

when I was 16 you know the witnesses had

this huge thing you know especially men

will know they do even now but back in

those days you know Armageddon was

literally a couple of months around the

corner you know I McGee was eminent they

didn't I was quite a talented kid with

music you know it's got a that stuff and

you know I remember it kind of 14 15 you

know being told well you can't do karate

because it's violence you can't go to

university you know higher education is

frowned on by the witnesses so you know

there's no point in going to university

because their whole kind of theology is

that if you get higher education there

that you can lead you away from the

religion so they were ain't and you know

being a concert pianist or something

like that you know would mean that I was

glorifying myself and not horrified

Tahoma so that kind of you know there

kind of mentality affected me and so

when I was 16 I thought well you know I

can't go to uni or anything and begins

coming around the you know in a couple

of months Armageddon is going to be here

so I you know I'll go and knock on doors

all time you know that was the thing

that everyone used to do was because not

contain the full time preaching work so

I did that and I definitely I remember

at that stage I really hope I was also

hoping that that would make my same-sex

attraction go away so at an early age in

your teenage life you were you were

obviously aware that you were attracted

to men but you were you were also

wishing it would go away oh yeah mm-hmm

how do they cause that how do you think

that affected you and how did that

affect your let's say your relationship

with God I'm not quite sure about my

relationship with God at that point I

think a lot of goats and a lot of a lot

of personal shame but then I think that

didn't really kind of kick in until a

little bit later really full-on but

definitely a lot of self-hatred

definitely a lot of Sep because of it

and you know just asking yourself why

why am I like this or why do I feel this

no I didn't ask why I just be going to

take it away okay I just wanted to just

you know beats Jehovah to take it away

and I thought by preaching full-time

then at least you know I might make it

through beginning but you know I did

been a couple of incidences you know

physical incidences there you know I

knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that I

was you know okay but then around that

age of 18 that's watched her okay now

about homosexuality and when then

watched and came out it was kind of the

first time that I had right so for those

that may not know Watchtower is the

publication for the Jehovah's Witnesses

it was kind of the first time that I had

really had language to you know anything

was

and black-and-white that as I are this

is what's wrong with me so I went to the

elders and told them that you know we

lift this magazine and with all kind of

a bunch of mannequin rolls and tears and

all day and I said you know this is

where I am and they very quite so that's

was like 1981 in a small town in New

Zealand and then you pull off a New

Zealand say the elders really didn't

know what to do about it they pull

together a Judicial Committee and I was

stripped of all my privileges of being

full-time creature and being able to

coming to meetings and stuff like that

so with the hunt gonna fuck you

I was devastating was devastating

so I knew that it was on the cancer not

get disfellowshipped and with the

witnesses a few keepers fellowshipped of

the witnesses you literally lose your

whole world nobody talks to you they

walk down the street and look at you you

look straight through you they yes so

yeah I was you know I knew there was a

high chance in that leaders fellowship

to never lose my world I didn't know

anyone and then what outside world I

only knew witnesses in my immediate

family so it was a huge thing and like

the elders say to me not you know we'll

get back to you and a few wait you know

a couple of weeks and so a few weeks we

bye

so it's for Craig so at this point

you're basically outcast in a

sense right I mean you're just and look

at that way and you have a relationship

with God and with religion you're trying

to do what's right and here your world

is crashing down on you and did

you feel that there was no way out of

this or I was hoping that they wouldn't

just fellowship me and then I would get

help for my problem mm-hmm

but what happened was I never heard

anything from them in the meantime my

best friend who had also self-identified

you know us with each other has been gay

we just cooked up

scheme so it was basically we just kind

of went you know we can't we can't stay

in the organization and be faithful to

Jehovah and bring reproach on Jehovah's

name you know in be gay so we cooked up

this scheme that we would come down to

Kevin's city of New Zealand which is

about five or six hours away from my

hometown and plus things were really bad

at home as well so with my stepfather so

that was kind of another motivation for

me to get out because if my stepfather

found out that I was gay I'm pretty sure

it would have been a lot of violence and

a lot of you know unhappiness so I just

said you know they're here so I read

into Wellington we were there for a few

months and you know with own kind of the

first month and drugs were introduced

and I just said yeah sure the mentality

with you know Jehovah's Witnesses is

there if you're not gonna be a witness

you're doomed anyway and the world is a

really really bad place you know there's

no kind of very very extremely

black-and-white Greek you know if you're

and if you're not awareness you're on

the devil's team there's not isn't that

there's no gray areas so and they make

the world out to being really bears you

know they make worldly people out to be

muted bears all of them so you know we

know moved to Wellington and you

know thing was you know living with

transsexuals and their tenure they were

into prostitution and they were into

drugs and I just thought well that's

what the wielders it's what I was raised

to believe the world is anyway so you

know why not cut if you can't beat a

joiner

and you know I think I had so much

self-hatred there that the drugs were a

great answer initially you know because

at least they gave me some relief from

my you know he'd

yes I got into drugs and then you know a

few months went by or somewhere along

the line I I still had a lot of that say

for self-hatred and stuff and so but I

guess you know because we were living

with Trey Queens I thought maybe the

solution to my own happiness and

everything is to become to live as a

woman maybe on just mean to be a woman

and debts of my problem you know you

know kinda I guess coming from a wetness

diagram it's kind of like well you know

being a become a woman and then I get

together with a man will think I'm not

really gay because I'm so right yeah you

know yeah so it's not your thought

was well maybe maybe this makes things

right yeah right

and by then like I look I still believe

that the witnesses were the truth

so you know standard living as

a woman and was doing hormones you

know taking the hormones you know in

preparation for seat change and stuff it

was a very dark time of my life and

some things is a very dark time in some

senses

I was really looked after by the

universe on a no bet

you know and being in such a rough scene

I was really why do you why do you why

do you say that I mean why do you think

you were looked after I you know I guess

long in the long term I think God has

his hand on my life to some extent you

know you know I think that and then

potentially we could have been you know

penned on a lot and stuff are there I

just happen to meet a group of older

people they were into that scene and

into the drugs but they really took care

of me until you know taught me how to

look after myself and you know I never

exploded experience a little bit of

violence but we won't talk about that

but you know I was very fortunate like I

couldn't it could have been much

you see the malls so where did that lead

you to then I mean so you've gone to

this really dark area in your life yeah

and you know you're trying to fill

really I mean it what seems to me is

that you seem to maybe be trying

to fill a void yeah that you've left

behind you know just because knowing you

a little bit I know that you've always

felt not always but there's always been

a I think a sense with you it may have

been suppressed but a sense of duty you

know of testimony of you know God exists

and I want to be doing what's right

this you went to this dark area and then

that didn't last forever though right no

and I said there that only lasted for

about three or four years I can't quite

remember that so I'm 56 now so there was

a long time ago definitely by the age of

probably 22 I went back to my hometown

and we were living so I was still living

the lifestyle I was still doing the drug

though we were living in this place and

we were living next door to Pentecostal

Christians

so these Pentecostal Christians

befriended us and they can't you

know they said to me you know look

you know Jesus can change you Jesus

you know as if you ask Jesus into your

life that he can change you you know an

in-depth you know Jesus loves you and

you know Jesus and you know I was

looking for an out in terms of

especially drag and I can remember a

specific occasion where like I was 22

years old I've been doing this for maybe

four years I can specifically remember

looking in the mirror one day in looking

at still looking back at me and I even

though I hadn't had the full change or

anything there you know I physically

looked female and I remember

specifically looking in the mirror going

you're everything that you want to be

and you still hate yourself

you know what's the point I was like

you're trying to survive yeah yeah so

anyway we're learning some of these

questions for sense Munson wouldn't have

anything to do with them because they

were people because they we times

witnesses you know mentally I got to

know them you know they seemed to really

care for me and I was really yeah there

was I hadn't had that for a long time so

they eventually can long story short we

to a church service I had this really

full-on salvation experience accepting

Christ it was like really full-on in my

kind I'm you know the Pentecostal things

you know I meet Christ stand nice and

you know to this day I know that I'm in

Christ that night and what does that

mean what does that mean to you I mean

what was our experience just that it was

very as the right word for someone it

was a very visceral experience I

experienced God as I'd never experienced

God as or what this but I knew the

reality of Jesus Christ and I knew I

knew that he came into my life and I was

kind of changed and then instead okay so

you know and getting out of you know

like the next day I stopped wearing

female attire and stopped doing drugs

you know when we know first joins that

you know that even the Pentecostal

church that you know I mean I've gone

and knowing this you know you couldn't

be gay in back then and I think they've

changed I think they're Pentecostal a

lot of the Pentecostals and evangelicals

have kind of caught up with to Jesus

Christ lead a saint stuff around us now

but I think back then in XE I think even

the LDS Church was kind of like the

suspect into they just couldn't leave

couldn't be gay in Christian yeah

there's been there's been definitely

evolution of yeah respect out there as

well yeah so when so I knew that going

in but I was promised that Jesus would

make me straight if I did everything

Jesus way that he would make me straight

okay so and you believed it okay

completely because of the because of

this very real encounter their own head

with Christ sure I fully expected that

it would change and you know stuff like

you know the drugs just to win you know

very quickly you know all that old

lifestyle we'd bring quickly so I kind

of expected their gay you know made you

complete the Americans called same-sex

attraction which I'm not that keen on

but you know I expected the same-sex

attraction to go as well and it kind of

didn't go you know like yeah you know I

date a girl for 18 months and yeah like

I just knew then I still was you know it

wasn't going and I think the most the

most you know though the thing that the

Pentecostals were saying at the time was

there you know being gay was a demon you

know then so like I was having this

ministry called deliverance ministry in

was you know I'm having the demon of

homosexuality curse down I was doing a

12-step program for you know homosexual

behavior of praying in tongues for hours

on end and studying the Bible and not

hanging out guys yeah it's doing

everything was doing everything yeah I

was gonna ask you so you feel that

you were completely bought in on this

program and that you had a real hope

yeah again going back to what you said

as a teenager you had a real hope that

we're going to be straight and this was

going to go away

yeah okay yeah but it did you know what

what ended up what ended up happening

then sorry I kind of bad all that and so

I was due day until about 30 31

I really battled that so that I said

that just interjecting here that is that

about eight or nine years yeah yeah so I

think concentration when I was 22

so yeah till about 30 31 at least a nice

steady off anywhere mmm-hmm so in those

intervening years like you know a lot of

that was really gross but there was a

lot you know

especially I think the last two or three

years of it you know this time had

marched on and nothing was changing and

it was just becoming you know it's so

disheartening that nothing was changing

and you know my relationship with the

Lord would be you know up and down you

know I'd be great for a little bit and

then I you know do something unfortunate

you know with that when you talked about

before Craig you talked about guilt did

is that was that a part of us this up

and down I mean it was just like okay

wait a minute I'm I feel really guilty

about this how can I can have a normal

relationship with God if I am guilty

about this yeah and you know there was a

sin to sit next in like people would

tell my friends and the church would say

to me you know your rebellious Craig

you're not trying hard enough Craig

you're you know you know it was like it

wasn't God's fault that I wasn't going

straight it was my I didn't really want

to go straight mmm and you know I was

like you guys have no idea you know

there was being treated as if it was

you've years if you were an alcoholic

yeah right I mean you talk about the

12-step program yes look look we just

need to change this through these steps

through prayer and that was

a common belief right at the time and

that that really was I think a very

common belief it was very much you know

since I'm sure dad sheets even baby and

they were doing a new God you know and I

think we were doing in Christianity to I

think which I didn't come across at the

New Zealand but is it a vision therapy

or something I know that there were

programs for them I don't know if they

were officially a part of the church but

I think that it was part of the same

part of the recommendation and

counseling to go to the programs yeah

and you know the other thing was you

know get married get married you know

praise God that I didn't do that I would

hate to turn that to a woman to be to

life deco that's an interesting

point right there because I think that

that did happen several times I think

that's happened in a lot of faiths yeah

right and somehow okay if I do this and

I I mean coming from a straight person's

point of view right I can see how people

would start saying look if you marry a

woman and you have kids and you're part

of a family you're a father you're a

husband and you can love your wife and

your kids that maybe things will change

yeah I mean I think my views on that so

the stuff has matured as when he was 2

but the rest of my story

ah you know I just think that it's quite

a naive you know do you to take and you

know I mean you know would you know it's

kind of like saying to straight people

you know like imagine if that if the

world was reversed

imagine that we lived in a game world

and you know the straight people were

the minority then you know there was

these people running around with you

know desire self seats of the opposite

seats you know and we just see to them

or you know you just pray enough then

you just marry the same things and

everything will because you know it's so

it's

you know imagine one telling you to

change your fundamental I'm looking

for your word what you're gonna give

here

I want to know what word you're gonna

say actually because I'm really

interested in in this because your

identity or um not quite but yes mm-hmm

you know your sexuality you know

imagine like what I'm saying is your

orientation your all right there we go

okay yeah you know imagine someone

saying to you oh great by the way we'd

like to you to change your orientation

yeah one dude a you know that's you know

I know personally that's not going to

happen

yeah it's not a choice right you know we

don't get to choose thank see that's

that's the thing that I find it so

fascinating is the wrong word I use that

word a lot but I if that's the wrong

word aye-aye-aye

this is this is in itself something so

different in so complex yeah because

because it really is you know I don't

understand how you feel the way that you

do with your orientation you probably

can't understand how I feel the way that

I do that's a it's such a major part of

our identity yeah right as our sexuality

and so too it's not just a matter of

saying I'm going to change my behavior

yeah yeah yeah right it's not

you're going you're going down deep into

somebody's core and yet into somebody's

identity we'll say you're going to

completely change and so

it's its it to me it's different than

everything else any other type of

behavior we might talk about and you

know the other thing is which is kind of

jumping why I heat in this conversation

but you know I've been living you know

celibacy for the last two years my

sexual identity and orientation is

probably like these these areas of my

orientation that had nothing to do with

sex sure any is that it's part of you

it's part it's part of me is how I

relate to mean that's how I relate to a

woman that's how I relate to the world

you know and I ain't been done you know

anything but yeah that's kind of jumping

jumping he'd bet so anyway years oh I was

in the pinna constitute I was really

trying hard with God and got to thirty

thirty-one and I was kind of like I can

remember there was a kind of a few

months where I was so low because things

were changing in you know I love them I

loved the laws and I loved him with

every fiber of my being

mm-hmm I wanted Christ in my life and it

was devastating for me too for this not

to work the devastated me understandably

absolutely you know I'm not the suicidal

type mm-hmm I think if I was I probably

would snow but nonetheless it was

devastating to me and but it also became

really really stressful and there was a

period we like I just hit hives or town

one side of my body and I was not

functioning and just it was just there

was some dark dark periods within myself

and just you know when I was when I

wasn't

I used the corner being with gone in not

with God of healing where

latest son was there you know those

times you know when I couldn't feel

the Lord or the Holy Ghost they were

really eternally black and it was awful

and I could I just you know I decided

that I can't live like this anymore it

was too hard and I also kind of like I

got really angry you know I got angry

with God and I was like you know why why

did you promise me there then you would

enable me to love how you wanted me to

live and I felt that I'd been lied to

you so that lowly I mean you're going

through a process there where I mean you

know again I mean it's your it's your

eternal salvation

it's your happiness and there's

no way to see how you're going to

reconcile all this is that right yeah

how do you reconcile

what you want for yourself - - to live a

life that is worthy of Christ right that

is worthy of God and yet your nature

says something completely different

yeah yeah well I got I got tiny feet up

in the emergency no I walked away I

walked away from the church and they

walked away from cars so what's all

about 30 31 years old you walked away

from the Pentecostal church and yeah

just kinda gave up on everything or I

let the last prayer I prayed at that

point was that god I can't do this

anymore

if you're if you're so if you if being

gay is so bad I don't understand why you

wouldn't make it easier to change if you

think that it's so bad and you know I

had a lot of friends there was a lot of

friends we were all the same we were all

going through the same thing you know

there was ex questions I know it was an

ex case for Christ we were all doing the

same thing we would be able to talk for

a few years and we were falling off like

fries and I just you know I say I not

only just my experience about friends

experiences as well and I just said this

isn't right that's not right

and I just came to this conclusion there

the whole religious paranoid they don't

been brought up with from Jehovah's

Witnesses to being theory 31 in a you

know an evangelical Christian that it

was all just a big psychological have

there was just a big to lose him it

wasn't a delusion for everyone or just a

delusion for someone who's gay not a

delusion to everyone that we were all

sat under so you name more of an

agnostic or atheist or family ATS see

him Italy atheist okay yeah I was I

was so angry

and I probably wasn't fear mentally

atheists at the very beginning of it but

by a few years enough yeah I just

and you know I so I left the church came

back to Wellington had a good job down

here and I just decided you know more

I'm just gonna be the best gay person

that I can be because I was fed up with

being told that you know that we duty

and that we're filthy and you know what

is to really brass me off was when you

know people would put us in the same

category as child molesters an animal

thing you know when what murder is all

these you know it was like dance to make

me so angry because you know basically I

was a good person

the stole never did anything quite

boring really

but you know you'd like say I I used to

keep and I still did get very angry

people do that routine of comparing us

to yeah some things that don't involve

two adults making a choice right

right yeah you're you saw

being compared to people that make

choices as compared to your nature yeah

yeah and I just decided and you know

because I was raised in a world we were

somehow nice because we were gay

mhm and I was over there I was over

there and I'm still over you know I say

they're just me basically just being a

good human being

but then proud of Who I am in loving

myself and you know those years of you

know from 30 until you know basically to

50 saying for 20 25 years you know I

just you know I did the best that I

could to live life and go crash so you

you become a vehement atheist from time

and then is this you know then there was

a time when you

you were open again to spirituality at

least yet so we know was on 2000 the

year 2000 I did rehab I went into rehab

in 2000 and you know he had if I put on

12 steps to end up on the board rehab

but in this context of alcohol of drugs

and I was and you know of course gods

and the steps and I was like oh I was

because God because God was a part of

the rehab yeah but you know thankfully I

had this amazing drug and alcohol

counselor he said to me that you know

and the context of the 12-step

fellowships God can be whatever higher

power you want for yourself there's no

conditions on what or who you have for

high power if you want to have a tree as

high power that's fine if you want to

have the recovery program is a high pair

that's fine if you want god that's fine

so you go through the 12-step

program in rehab what where did that

leave you

so they lead me to say you know

basically I needed to find some kind of

spiritual kind of thing was going to

work but you know and I didn't want to

do the theist you know Christian or any

other kind of God path so I just kind of

you know basically made stuff you know I

made up the world is fundamentally a

good place I think that was important

especially for my wellness background I

mean even the evangelical background

with this you know something that one

thing I never understood was the whole

human health connect and white thing

never there so yeah that the world was

faint you know I find amusing a good

place if people are fundamentally good

just some of us and more damage than

others but you know in that worked a

little bit of meditation so I've kind of

just self

you know closing lawyers and signing in

penny after so I think I'd been in

recovery for like a year and a half and

I went to Australia and I came across

our diets got introduced to this

Buddhist came across a Buddhist book and

I read this finished book in the

Buddhist book kind of like really

aligned with a lot of the stuff then I'd

started thinking about you know life

interconnection you know between people

and in life and the value of life in the

sanctity of life kind of lots of stuff

in Buddhism really resonated plus I'm

really liked it because he was their God

because one that there was no God or

because there was no God right and be

they didn't give a toss about people

being gay or LGBT so I would really

welcome and just really kind of

resonated with 103d come to believe for

myself so I felt like I wasn't being

told what to believe by other people

it was just resonating with what I

always already really thought right so I

ain't being told what to believe by

other people then was probably

associated with you need to change right

yeah okay so what so you're with how

long were you practicing Buddhism then

15 years 15 years okay so for quite some

time then and you enjoyed it I loved it

okay so I did it was it was you know it

was at least something that brought you

some type of spirituality yeah so I

think the main thing that I liked about

it was that their chanting was kind of

like a way to in some sense a way to get

back into prayer mmm and then I really

loved their like I really yeah okay so

your

you know as we go through your

journey here so you've gone just

recapping look look you've gone from a

very strict ideology or theology with

Jehovah's Witnesses growing up you move

to a dark place in your life you kind of

rebound off of that and in you and then

you rebound back a little bit you kind

of brought back in with the Pentecostals

into a born-again evangelical type of

relationship and you go kind of the

opposite again and you become a vehement

atheist yeah right you're like okay I've

tried this again maybe you know now this

isn't working and now you find maybe

something that's maybe I'm a little more

middle ground with Buddhism yeah yeah

yeah so you've got something that can

provide some type of spirituality some

kind of connection awareness and context

and is this now you've been 15 years

as a Buddhist yeah and then you start

seeing something online about the church

or he say initially for a better year I

had discovered YouTube and I was

watching this and think the very strong

community of ex-Jehovah’s witnesses

online in on YouTube and I think the

thing about our six witnesses is they're

you know because we've been so damaged

and because of the shunning practices of

the witnesses you know we're very you

know it's and also I think because of

the extreme nature of the witnesses

themselves they're you know so so the XJ

dump community is very quite strong and

quite vocal in so I came across him on

YouTube and started watching various

some stuff about X chained up so so I

started watching the staff and then

you know at the same time was watching

their somewhere along the line one of

their ex witnesses to interview did an

interview with John Toulon and was

comparing X Jehovah's Witnesses journeys

from Mormons Norwich yeah with the inks

that they stories he we get Mormon

stories so I came across I was

introduced to John to learn on their

podcast and I just thought that it was

really interesting you know there's

always this kind of and comparison

between the weather sirs and their case

aids you know I guess because of the

door knocking of the suits you know I

guess for soon Eckstein like the

witnesses have a governing body and we

have the apostles of the Prophet say and

so it is to promote I say I somehow I

started I thought I'll check out this

woman and I just found it really

intriguing like physiologically I

thought that it was really intriguing

like x-men a Saints experiences in

because witnesses experiences are really

quite different and there's a lot so for

for linen a sayings there's much more

wiggle room for you in terms of you

know you can question stuff or you can

believe things a little bit differently

than what the Brethren teach or you can

you know you know it's just to interject

real quickly that's interesting to me

because you will find some people that

would not agree with that but they

probably have no context right so in

other words someone who's been a

latter-day saint and they feel whatever

for whatever reason they leave the

church it may be that if that's all you

see if you're if you're a member of the

church and you only see somebody who's

left the church and maybe you've watched

Mormon stories or listen to it and

you hear somebody leave the church what

you're saying is that if you were to

go out and watch say for example the

Jehovah's

witnesses and those that are ex JW's as

you say you would see quite a difference

in the response even you know from

those that have left being a Jehovah's

Witness and those that have left the

LDS Church yeah yeah and I think the way

they're like I think the way that

latter-day saints can interact with like

you all you have to do in the witnesses

is pick up a cigarette and you can

be to Spanish it mm-hmm you can lose

your whole family oh very very strict

you know like you know we can cuddle

about what the word of wisdom in have

different expressions of how we love the

word of wisdom and you know people go

well you know then that's kind of up to

you you know I mean I you know I know

that yeah and you know even you know

like if you like even if you'd slightly

question things and Jacobs your hot

water very quickly mm-hmm whereas I've

noticed with a sign said people can

question things and there's much more

kind of latitude to you know I'm glad

you're saying that I just I do because I

do have discussions with people

sometimes and again I mean if you don't

have any context with this you don't

you the church is it can be strict and

it can be I don't know if I'd say this

way or the highway I guess sometimes it

is but at the same time the process

and the culture that's in place should

allow you a little bit of wiggle room

like you say and the ability to

you're not shunned you are hopefully

helped out right you've got an alford

around you hopefully I don't know that

everybody always sees it that way no and

I don't I think that's not always the

experience and it's not always the

experience that I express you know I

mean I hate of this thing you know

Bishop leaves mm-hmm

you know you can get a bishop that is

really cool when you can get a bishop

that's a cook right there's

there's always there's always a human

factor in place yeah yeah whereas with

the witnesses you know you've urine or

water pretty quickly for just about

anything so anyway I just but I wasn't

interested like I wasn't even interested

in becoming a monk you know I was only

interested in that from a sociological

point of view but what happened was and

the process of kind of fixating on a few

months he did some interviews with LGBT

people in their experience in the church

okay that was probably pretty

interesting view that was really

interesting and so I think one of the

main was I there was a lot of there were

a lot of those entities like I'm gay you

know or actually there was several ways

of it you know that one of two of the

main ones was one of them was you know

this kind of story of they can't come

you know teenager comes out to his

parents cause or the appearance and they

go well we're gonna love you anyway and

even if you go outside the doctrine of

the seeker of their doctrine we're still

gonna love you mm-hmm which was just

trippy for me because I was so that was

dad's not something you were used to

hearing yeah and you know one of the

hugely influential was Carol Carolyn

Pearson Hillman Imp and story her story

oh my gosh I'm just Lovins through that

one because you know he and she you know

had her husband and you know they've got

married in the seventies he never told

her he was gay and because the you know

in his bishops he don't just keep

married and we'll be all good

of course he wasn't all good you know he

ended up leaving and you know got HIV

came bang and Carolyn missed him in her

home mm-hmm until he died and they're

like I just couldn't believe I couldn't

leave the love you know I was just

amazed you know and like and then there

was also there was the odd stories and I

think I have to think three Mormon

stories I think I might have gotten them

to these other things like Mormon and

gay which is a refreshing insight also

there's one called voices of Hope yes

and their videos I was watching these as

well and that was about they were about

people dead like we're identifying as

gay and staying in the chair

staying in the church and like oh wow so

so yeah so you're interested that okay

here's a religion that is you know

they're not saying okay it's okay to

have same-sex behavior but it's okay to

be gay

yeah right is that that's is that what

you were interpreting yeah yeah yeah

right okay okay and that there were

people that were saying publicly that's

probably a big part of it right

publicly we still love you no matter

what and you're not you know cause that's

obviously this is a person-by-person

case that's not always yeah he's really

he's like yeah at least there were

people that were acting different than

what you had experienced in the past

with the deaf community

yeah and I just found it absolutely

fascinating

so I'd say so I kind of was probably

watching Linda day Saints so what

happened was also and this process of

course with Mormons stories I also came

across all their empty you know all the

reasons why people were questioning

their faith faith crisis and the reasons

why they were having faith crisis

different versions of the first version

polygamy so you're starting to get

you're starting to get brought in a

little bit into this Mormon Yale

right where you're sitting what

what the issues are and what testimony

means and yeah yeah yeah yeah and so I

found that really really fascinating and

and so and so through that process I

kinda I just kind of thought the whole

thing was just rather fascinating the

states still not interested in being and

they're they say what did happen though

somewhere along the line I did start

having a sneaky suspicion like it really

appealed to me these stories of people

that were staying in the church and

being a faithful latter-day saint and

having a relationship with the Lord and

keeping the gay identity not during the

behavior but keeping the identity run

dead not you know it's probably gonna

felt yeah and that was that was I think

somewhere along the line I just means

God I think I kind of went wow this God

that I've rejected and then I don't

believe in and then I think as a big

hair what is what what what if I'm wrong

what if what if there's a way back

mmm-hmm and so I kind of started getting

yeah I kind of started thinking whom

this is really interesting so I ended up

going to an anime Saint Sacrament

reading now have you seen also you

talked about the faith crisis online

before you had gone to church or you

started seeing some of the apologetics

stuff yeah it's really it's really

fascinating to me so you're talking

about what you saw that's fascinating on

your head what's fascinating to me is

that you get online and what

someone who would be lets say a lifelong

member of the church where it might be

something where it starts to cause a

faith crisis to them right because

they're seeing

discussions that are outside of what

they would have maybe with their family

or with within the church at Sunday

school or seminary or Institute yeah but

that for you was kind of this middle

ground of or this this invitation into

this whole new world that actually

started to bring you an interest in the

church yeah you know so some people are

going down that that path and it's and

it's starting to maybe cause a faith

crisis for you

it's almost like it's something

that's starting dig it start easy got

some faith yeah I think I've got a bit

says I think because I was only

interested in that sociologically you

know I it was somewhere along the line

where I got a hunt it there was other

there was other sides to the arguments

mm-hmm

like you know you see all their

interests you know like Book of Mormon

issues you know historicity and

horses and write all that stuff all

these really important things right

right yeah and right but because I was

only interested in certain that

sociologically from an intellectual

level I think it was kind of easy for me

to go

oh wow these guys are saying all this

stuff I wonder what the other team sees

you know they say like okay and so I

started looking at you know Dan Peterson

and you know all those guys you know and

like looking at these stuff and I was

kind of like going ah okay so there's

kind of like a whole kind of different

side of the story here you know and you

kind of King you know you can kind of go

you can look at all and that's what I

find interesting about the Internet is

that you know a little bit like in the

old days you can make the Bible say

whatever you want to say please that you

can look at the need and find whatever

you want to find and you know you

know you can I mean for you Americans

you know you can just look at the tip of

credit stuff we can just look at the

Republicans you know I think you've even

got me as it seen in into the other one

but 105 news here ones right-leaning

ones deflate way yes just what I just

was preached just preach to the choir

yeah you know and so I was kind of like

wow this is kind of cool so I said

looking at all that other stuff and the

other staff kind of I was just kind of

like okay so I think it's just as

relevant to yeah you kind of get to see

I think you

watch both sides a lot and then I think

I kind of like just started saying you

know for me did not immediately go read

an article about Joseph being of Joseph

Smith being whatever they say is that

you know instead of just saying that

going okay but what is the other team

say about you know and so I think I just

saw it started saying that arguments is

much more nuanced than what it's just

presented to you you know so there was

all good wheat to the sacrament meeting

because I wanted to find out so this was

the first time I'd beat so I'd been

looking at the stuff for maybe two years

two and a half years and I eventually

went to the sacrament meeting because I

kind of want to die I kind of mainly had

questions like what's at stake and what

some inner wisdom and you know kind of

things stuff right there and I hope they

wanted to know like as a dream what they

said that the guys on the ground here or

is it just me so did you go to Sakura

meeting the kind it wasn't a kind of a

test like I'm gonna I'm gonna try not

out myself I just wanted to be nosy see

what they say so I asked them like I can

remember asked them some really dumb

questions when they think really dumb

now but like I one of them was Filipino

and I said oh why would you be in the or

they have a past of not people go to the

temple because I thought maybe because

my view of the church was turn the black

it was all pretty much why and the

Uniting that to a you know the sacrament

meeting in New Zealand here 90% of the

congregation is Marty and Pacific on was

that right yeah I was not surprised me

at all yeah I was so relieved because I

didn't really want to go to a why

teachers cause but um yeah I was so

relieved that my peeps with it

say that was cage but I carry me my

signs in one of them oh why why oh you

guys coming to church with I've got this

racist background you know and you know

and then I they other question one of

the questions was okay so what about the

cage they did not so did you did you ask

Maori attendees there Maori members

there this is not just this fella pay no

mister okay yeah I didn't meet I didn't

I don't think I need any of her

congregation den meaning so I talked to

the missionaries from in our and asked

them or my nosy questions told them I

wasn't an interested in being a let a

say and they wanted my dress and try and

ever I said no that's fine I just came

to be nauseam sorry to waste you tell

them both and they were fine they were

lovely and one of them had gameit's it

all by yourself yeah okay and one of

them was a one of them was Australian

and he hit gameit's neck in Australia

and I was really impressed with her okay

so at least they're meeting and then

after that things you're still you're

still really at this point I mean

there's just a couple years ago you're

you're still really in twist 16 yet this

idea of just absolute black and white

when you say you're impressed by

somebody who has gay friends that's

going to church here I mean you're

you're like the world

completely separated here yeah yeah so I

was yeah I was pretty so yes I came home

from the sacrament meeting and I think

kind of running parallel with this was

my Buddhist and my Buddhist faith my

Buddhist faith was there was I don't

know there was stuff going on and I

like to think that God was just waiting

quietly in the background but God there

was something going on with my Buddhist

faith and it was kind of like becoming

lease lease it wasn't working for me as

well as it had in the past but it was it

was kind of fine but it was kind of not

fine and so after I came in from the

sacrament meeting but of course by this

stage I knew that the deal was you get

in the Book of Mormon and you read the

book of Mormon in you ask of it's true

so I was and I think I definitely after

coming back from that sacrament meeting

I definitely was obviously looking at

stuff through slightly different eyes

and I kind of I kind of thought I

definitely can remember thinking I

wonder if Pretz f there lied and this is

only and could this be a way for me to

come back to God like could I get caught

back in my life and I was yes I I jumped

online and ordered a book a mall then

and I think I ordered the missionaries

at the same time come around you can do

it all online that's great but and I

think I was talking to a mission B I was

a missionary system so um this fucking

woman arrived in the post and I remember

the first time I could in just curious

what when it arrived I mean honestly I'm

gonna think back to it you know it

arrived and you all you opened up

whatever you know the box or package and

I mean what we were what were you

thinking right then it's like I've got

this in my hand right now what were you

thinking at that time

I think I was kind of thinking off okay

it's arrived well it's alright it's

either a load of nonsense or there'd be

something universe yeah I was prepared

to I was prepared to kind of do what

they see that you do was to read and

I was in this real habit with Buddhism

you know doing morning prayers and you

know and you do that twice a day so that

was you know for me to just include a

net time read the book a woman and pray

to God so I remember the first time I

prayed the Lord when I got my book a

Mormon and I literally said well if

there's anyone out there listening in a

non Jew there rose but their fears

you know you feel free to make yourself

known I saw you prayed yeah how long had

it been since you had prayed to God 25

years what I would imagine there would

be a lot of anxiety or maybe not anxiety

but what were you were you know again

you're sort of what I think there's a

way to bring God back in my life are you

thinking to yourself maybe things are

different than I thought and maybe God

is different than I thought

and you oh you're kind of putting your

toe in the water so to speak at this

point yeah and there was also a big part

of me that was going Craig you're crazy

you're just trying to get back to how

you used to feel when you repeat across

or because you're you know kind of

longing for youth you know you're like

having a midlife crisis then in your

longing for your youth mm-hmm you know

say you know and you just yeah I was

just having a hankering to go back and

it was all a bit stupid really mm-hmm

but there was also tired and part of me

that there we knew but just imagine if

it was true you know wow so I did that

and this time

so I started doing there and then

interestingly my turn ting so over the

course of the next few weeks I think

that missionaries chained up I got the

missionaries to come round and I was

extremely lucky with my missionaries

they were just maybe we'll convert say

this but they were perfect for me and so

they started coming around and I was

reading The Book of Mormon and I think

it's specially having the missionaries

in the Harrison and having the

discussions I think I think that

definitely I can kind of remember the

first time I think that I felt the

spirit and the first time I can remember

I was reading The Book of Mormon in I

was praying and I can remember that's

kind of a different feeling came into me

and it was good and I was kind of like

oh so different but they're different

from what you had felt with the previous

churches and different from Buddhism

yeah yeah maybe not like I knew then it

was a kind of describe and I knew that

it was a touch from God

my dentist you know I knew that it was

not I knew that it was not me and I knew

that it was something God and I knew

there at kind of stayed mmm and it got

and got so done more than I read The

Book of Mormon and was praying each to

morning they got stronger and my

enthusiasm for Buddhism in my chanting

in particular was becoming more erratic

in life I'd like quickly zoom through

ganya quickly zoom through the Buddhist

priests eight so I could get to my book

a Mormon readings now how - how often

were you reading The Book of Mormon Oh

twice a day oh really okay yeah so

morning and evening and I was also

reading just in case Mormonism was a

cult I was also reading the New

Testament just to cover myself actually

in the old injury so years Buddhist

meeting I hadn't been for like a couple

of weeks I went to this Buddhist meeting

in the sea cranking you need to turn to

you know say you know good and I can

remember sitting in front of our object

- and I can remember thinking like it

was really seriously going this isn't

working for me

I think in our language that I had now I

was I don't have a testimony interceding

hmm and so the next day I ring up my

Buddhist leader and I've seen it to me I

need to take six months off my practice

- I've been investigating Christianity

again and I need to take six months out

because it was I thought kind of a

couple of months before then I was kind

of think oh cool you know I can do a

spot of chanting in a spot of

Christianity in its wee days and it just

became kind of more probably more less

spiritually blue realizing that I grew

there mm-hmm and I just needed clarity

and I needed some kind of clarity so I

thought if I just take six months off

what isn't in concentrate on my

scripture study in praying to God that

it would give me more clarity of whether

this was a good path for me mm-hmm

so I did I'd say I made that core and it

was probably a real major and taking

off point and so I kind of just been to

way kind of getting in touch with my

closest honest feelings and just say no

I'm gonna take six that's off and then

the other major thing

happened in that period okay I think

that mercenary started coming over and I

think a 20-17

and then by the time I got to July

I see I'd say I can I think I got up to

Alma's nidito

in my book of woman reading and Alma 32

talked about you know taking the word in

and the seed and experimenting upon the

two women and so we know everyday I just

love Alma 32 Alma that he turns my

favorites one of my future upper region

after that so I said to the Lord the big

test for me and any of this as if I

choose another Lord testily house

they're gonna go because of my past and

because there was such a big thing in my

life so and I kind of own made a

commitment to the nor did it two things

had stopped swearing because a very

enthusiastic suiren and then I'd stop

swearing and then I would start and that

proved to be incredibly powerful and I

won't go into the details of that but it

was a bit of it took about a month then

was a process of coming to the law of

chastity completely but over there month

there was incidences that happens there

really confirmed to me not only that I

could be impaired to London or chastity

but also that the Lord loved me

that the Lord knew me and loved me like

yeah it wasn't like my past experiences

with Christianity it wasn't that kind of

black and white separation between God

and my orientation which was profound

had a profound effect so yeah now at

that point I mean as you made I mean an

incredible sacrifice to live the law of

chastity you found maybe now somehow

they're starting to be somewhat of a

reconciliation ah

is that what you're saying I mean I mean

you know it's like okay I Christianity

God Jesus Christ can come back in here

and

I can reconcile this it's not perfect

maybe yeah but I can reconcile Who I

am with who I want to be as far as being

a child of God I'm loved of God and

I can have that relationship with God

yah-hoo being Who I am yeah when once

the missionary started coming I was

going to church like I said going to

teach every weight and you know I've

always been really you know I've always

been out of my head all I think I'm not

even capable of being in the closet and

and so you know in flow G the warden

wouldn't miss Blair you know just you

know and but it's also amazing like this

two or three people in the ward there if

gave family or gay kids or you know you

know yes so I think you know New Zealand

it's probably different to what it's

like in the states in terms of being gay

right I had bigger issues with my gay

friends in my atheist friends and you

know not so much to put a session

Buddhist okay but my atheist friends and

my recovery friends and my gay friends I

had bigger problems

we know entering the church with the

Indian ideas from you know I and it was

it was because well sure you're guarded

mmm you're going back to the dark side

well yeah oh yeah why would you join a

church that doesn't let you be who you

wanna have crying mmm

what the heck are you doing no longer

having sex

mm-hmm what's wrong with you you know

like that that it wasn't so much yeah I

had I had more issues with that sort of

thing then like I took so much flak

you know started paying more out about

joining the chasing going dates cause so

also big sacrifice for you I mean your

circle of friends and people you know I

mean yeah yeah although I only lost one

friend okay and that was kind of the

semi toxic relationship so that was kind

of let me let me back up here at Craig

just real quick cause I want to finish

this this part of what you're saying

here so you've been you're going to

church you're reading The Book of Mormon

you get to Alma 32 yeah and you you've

got the missionaries there and your

testimony is growing you know you

filling the spirit you're in you're

reading The Book of Mormon twice a day

yeah so what what is the moment or what

what happened where did they invite you

to get baptized or did you say I want to

get baptized what happened there okay

we're inviting me so you they were of

course and I was always like I'll wait

for my six months is that the leader

will get if I want to I said I'm not

eight I'm not against being baptized

just want to be really shortest

time mmm I don't want to die then and

then sentiments they'd have been having

trouble to launch a city or something

right I didn't want to go through that

painting you say I was just like but

then I think it's PC once I said it a

little more yesterday and

I think God has been extremely gracious

to me and I know that um I know that you

know I so a couple of things one of them

was I discovered that you know my

orientation at least to do with my

sexuality than what I've thought it does

there a lot of my sexuality was based on

lusts rather than orientation mm-hmm so

when I found that I could love them the

law of chastity that and like it was you

know kind of very much became um it

happened not overnight yeah like that

that changed from being a very lustful

person to not not really thinking like

that anymore um wasn't was for me truly

miraculous and I've you know Frank guys

I had phases I don't really think about

it much anymore but I hid phases as well

you know is it just was useful for sex

and so you know turn no don't use and

the strollers when you're tweeting well

it probably would have been that much

more difficult though perfect right

none where you talk your life to

live and you got that thirty thirty year

difference there and you're saying yeah

can I do this yeah yeah yeah was 325 and

being presented with this task of living

that all test me because you know I mean

for a heresy to increase and you know to

live the law of chastity at least you

know I've got the option of dating or

holding hands or feet new exploring

reverser with us

at this stage of the church's history we

don't have that you know if we're living

the wrong yesterday

that's cutting that's not just cutting

out six it's kind of out the hope of

being with somebody right

say um now let me ask you that then I

mean that's a little personal but what

how do you reconcile that I mean there's

a lot of things like it's been

reconciled here but how do you reconcile

just how the truth I'm not sure whether

I do okay if I you know I've asked

myself why can't you know my friends ask

me as well why can't you just be God but

with God in big a in to what you want

why you know why can't you do that and I

I've got I don't know you know I don't

know I don't know movements just because

I was brought up so fundamentalist there

I just you know can never you know I can

remember I kind of had looked at there

those gate like those teachers and gay

troops is there kind of totally except

you know like to gay marriage and that

stuff and yeah I don't know like yeah I

don't know I think this is just a path

for me and right I don't have any I

chose not to have any opinion on people

that choose to limit different paths you

know I know that people you know in the

past have you know I think that they can

envision their life for themselves with

how it's being and a romantic

relationship and so they do choose to

leave the church you know um you know

Tom Kristofferson's brother to it yeah

he's returned recently in this box

great but you know I think the way that

has families reaches mm-hmm during those

20 years that he was away from the

church either a gay relationship as very

educational for not only the church but

for us as individuals there you know how

job is to manage job is not to make

decisions for other people onto what

path they choose in this path that I've

chose this path that I've chosen I want

to be I want to be

relationship with the Sabian with my

father in human you know I'm willing to

make you know I'm willing to pick up my

cross which is what I've chosen today

okay that you know other people's

courses may look different

maybe they may they may that's right I

think I think that's correct

so so you have in your journey here you

you decide you're gonna go ahead and

get baptized yeah and you're going

to make this commitment you had you do

this after you decided that you're going

to live the law of chastity yeah so once

I found out that I could live the little

chase today the Lord is just becoming so

like I just you know for me for a piece

of like me with my pass to be able to

have relationship but I never believed

that I could have known my Savior like

this I know you know it's like I wake up

and pinch myself I'm thinking how does

how did this happen you know I just you

know in just especially because I was so

angry with him and so damaged by those

you know beliefs that I was

intrinsically evil because I was gay and

so for me to be able to have the

privilege of knowing the Savior and

being able it has the privilege of being

a but partake of the sacrament every

Sunday it's like just you know entered

be able to go to the tinkle in make

those covenants and you know you know if

you'd see to me three years ago I wanted

to sit you look completely crazy yeah

well that's a wonderful thing

Craig I mean that's just that is that is

a wonderful wonderful thing you must

have had also as you were going through

investigating the church it must have

had award members there that you were

able to be you get to know pretty well

that supported you yeah you know and

then probably a bishop that supported

you yeah completely yeah my

missionaries were amazing like SP she

made some very very difficult

conversations while I was standing sort

of the Lord testing staff and we

it's a very frank conversations which I

looking they know feel so sorry for

those boys anyway but and also you know

just yeah he I could I don't think

he's dealt with anyone like me knowingly

that much before and but he turned out

to be amazing and ward members yeah and

the speaker my elders quorum I always

call it was just great like oh no it is

you know I probably a few of them then I

kind of I think sometimes in the elders

quorum like some of them would just

prefer not to think about it which is

fine but I've also got like a few

friends here one of them has dad was gay

mmm he wasn't a member of the church or

anything but his dad was gay and he's a

great thing but there's also at least

three or four off the top of my head

that like we're really really close you

know yeah I just loved their elders

quorum so where are you so you've

been you've been baptized this was over

two years ago now

yeah you've nearly October 28th 2017

okay didn't season end of October

okay so almost a couple years and you've

been able to go through the temple so

soon yet so we're on December the 6th ok

last yeah we

to go how far is the temple from you by

the way well and seven arrows drawn from

here also much cornerback houses closed

till 2021 for refurbishing mm-hmm star

I've been over to Ozzie today so it so

desperate to get back to the temple

better yeah yeah and so tell me you

know just and wrapping up here a little

bit where are you at now with everything

I mean it seems to me and talking with

you now quite a few times you've got a

really solid testimony yeah of Joseph

Smith of the Book of Mormon of the

restored gospel and you know it's to me

overall this isn't even a gay story to

me right this is this is a story of

redemption right and it's a story of

redemption to me that you have this

ability to be reconciled there with God

and to have you know what to be

you know somewhat at peace and to have

found the gospel and have the time of a

testimony of it yeah I love that with

reconciliation it's one of my favorite

scriptures I think yeah I guess yeah I

am just doing life and trying to save

the Lord to be so keen and create so

that they the man that he wants me to be

you know right now you've got a little

bit of a platform here with this this

episode what would you suggest that that

the church members but say that's

talking about the church members of the

church members know or get to know about

gay and Mormon I think first off as to

well first off is to love your

children in to love your children

regardless regardless of whether they

stay or whether they go love your

children and do not shun them and the

thing that I I think my you know one of

my main things is that somehow you know

us in societies and us as particularly

religious societies tend to view

homosexual sexual and somehow worst and

heterosexual sexual sin mm-hmm it's not

it's exactly the same

will you say that again same as

religious societies came to view

homosexual sexual sin as somehow with

then heterosexual and got it

okay yes they're both equally outside a

legend a sturdy yes yeah so you know I

often think you know if I've you know

you know I've got friends for appearance

and their kids choose to leave the

church because they want to live with

your boyfriend or girlfriend but it

seeks your relationship you know are

they gonna treat that kid any different

to their brother who's choose the

selected sheets in love with your

boyfriend right you know right and

if they do see a difference and I think

that that's weird

and the other thing is that ah I think

people need to be informed as to what we

actually teach now because what the

latter date what the Brethren teach now

is not what they were teaching twenty

thirty forty years ago and say whether

it's just summarizing what are the

Brethren teaching now

so the breather in a teaching now there

if there you can be fully participating

in all their ordinances and life of the

church if you love the law of chastity

but also their teaching there if

people choose not to live outside the

circle is Richard lossless easily live

outside the circle of their doctrine and

then it's our job just to love them

regardless to show the love of Christ

regardless and where would be a good

place to go and look up what the brother

in the church is saying about this side

these I saw I don't know maybe they

change the name of that that they'll do

it as a cycle gay and Mormon I think

it's not the same or Mormon and gay no

nothing like that

but it's an official that's the official

church it's an official church website

so you can look at that and if you're

worried about being anything slightly

weird in yes it's Mormon and gay dot

Church of Jesus Christ or --g okay yep

so he's there also Richard Ostler is

just doing amazing

he just interviews LG LGBTQ people we've

seen of the topics as well but mainly

those and it has the site has called

listen women love and that is he just

interviews people kind of like what

you've done with me today okay um you

know this is like I think these nearly

two hundred stories and so I think just

being you know really informed and not

being afraid you know don't be afraid of

LGBT people you know like we just you

know we're just people and you know yeah

you know I think the young I'm just like

you know there's also a resource and I

think it's probably more for LGBT people

themselves that there's a group called

North Star and hinged over the phone I

think they do

they do him and Facebook pages for

families and friends of about I know I'm

a North Stand there's a whole bunch of

people in there that Aaron might the

position that I'm choosing to take in

live the gospel no obscene here it's

Northstar lds.org yeah yeah I think but

I think that definitely I think they

could be a resource especially for

people that printer looking at trying to

navigate this at a young age and finding

it to the cultures to find a path and I

mean look at the bottom line as you know

I think the Lord loves his children and

he loves I mean the most beautiful

doctrine about you know our church

there's that multiplicity of cota

of the glories you know celestial and

terrestrial and celestial you know I

think that's a beautiful

you know it's yeah you know does the

majority of people will end up somewhere

where they're comfortable in you know

and that's not you know I just yeah it's

not the black and white that you were

used to yeah yes not the black and white

that I was raised with and I'm so

grateful

sorry grateful yeah okay well Craig I

really appreciate you spending the time

here and doing this I think you've got a

wonderful story and like I said I see it

as a story of redemption and of

covenant of hope you know and I hope

that there are some people that would

listen to this that are have begun

through maybe a similar path that you've

gone through that can see okay there can

be some success with this and it no

doubt it's difficult I mean it's

difficult it's a hard it's a difficult

situation it's just but I love hearing

that you have made this reconciliation

ha

or that the Lord has made this

reconciliation happened with you and

that that you can be right now in the

position that you're in so and I you

know I think they'd see other part of it

so I think you know a part of the grace

of God as they you know sometimes I feel

that like he kind of like put me on hold

and so the church was ready for me I

couldn't I couldn't have been a better

this church did he is right you know

maybe maybe either being at that age or

based on the policies at the time yeah

yeah you know so I think that how God is

you know he you know he's all knowing

and all that means yeah you know I mean

yeah yes well it also goes to the

thought that I have you know sometimes

in my other podcast I'll go through the

idea of Covenant and apart from just

being covenant between us and the Lord

right there there's covenant amongst us

there's canons as people are different

and the other word bucking about

different nationalities different races

different religions different levels of

economic fortune you know there's

there's always going to be differences

amongst us and the idea for us to live

by covenant is to build that bridge and

understand what charity means between us

yeah I don't think charity's possible

certainly not to the extent that that it

actually exists without having the

differences that we have amongst us no

exactly

yeah I think that's what nice so yeah

what is it not variety well yeah variety

is the spice of life that yeah you know

it sees that you know and I mean we've

been nothing again and come follow me

first Corinthians in there do you know

if the body parts of the body of Christ

same idea absolutely yeah I mean yeah

you know I think when you look at the

fish and church stuff you know it's all

very kind of slightly Pollyanna you know

putting presenting the Beast

you're saying I would love to say you

know then no one said pretty sides and

that's bad because I think it's more

real right there is a lot of Pollyanna

the church they're dirty yeah yeah you

know I think you take you kind of you

kind of take that as part of the package

though I think yeah maybe you know I

mean not everybody's like that obviously

but I think that maybe it and I've

become a little bit like that see people

say things sometimes yeah that's right

it's kind of Zen kiermaier I'll give you

a have a few days where I start

sure sure yeah well Craig thank you very

much and is there anything else you

wanted to say or that we haven't

discussed or anything or that's you love

you we love what you're doing and I'm

Austin taxi absolutely that area code

yeah contact me anytime

 

 

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