Are Both Book Of Mormon Geography Models Wrong?

Lance Weaver has done an immense amount of research—enough for me to put him on the Show. An experienced geologist, Lance shows through modeling where he believes the settlements of Zarahemla, the Land of Mulek, and other sites existed. Known trade routes in Mexico, the American Southwest, and all the way to New York can show common travel by the Nephites.

And just for fun, we look at the dating of the Pharaohs, and how dating and numbers cause problems for history.

 Raw Transcript

North America so this this is the land of Zarheimla um even though the original Zarah himla is down in the valley a
little bit more it's a massive area right is this is kind of a thing like in the other sites you know when we're
talking about the myelin models and the heartland models you know in one of them like for instance the um the heartland
model most of them try and put Zarah himla just across the river from Nauvoo right and and there's there's zero
archaeological evidence of any seed there and so they kind of suggest that it's like well it's right in the river plane maybe the the river kind of washed
it all away and buried it but it's like even then you'd have you'd have stuff up in the hills you know and we're talking about the Book of Mormon where there's
armies of 20 of 40 and 50,000 people coming out of this city so it's got a population of 100,000 200,000 people you
know this is a huge city that we're talking about in the Book of Mormon so to suggest it's like well there's just no archaeological evidence that's kind
of kind of crazy in my in my opinion and then in the Mesoamerican models you know
the the most dominant models are kind of the Greeka models and they've got Santa Rosa Zarahla and and it's a city that
never had more than 20,000 people so once again and it's been buried in a reservoir now so you can't even
investigate it but there was plenty of investigations before it got drowned and it was just this tiny little city i was smaller than Chap Corso so once again
it's like my my model I'm I'm matching the largest cultures the largest cities with the largest things in the Book of
Mormon and and the whole reason why I think that nobody has done this before and no
one has been able to see this is one because of this view in their mind that that the cultures in ancient America
were not as large as the cultures in the old world um and I I think it's a view
based on kind of ignorance of the past something that's only now starting to be overturned especially with cacao evidence where they're starting to
realize well there really was a lot of um culture diffusion between the north between things in you know Cahokia for
instance the main sites right there along the Mississippi and the Valley of Mexico you know we're getting we're
getting a lot more evidence that there was transfusion well there's a lot of trade we know that there's there's an immense amount of trade going on between
Meso America and North America it's not like these were isolated tribes yeah and they didn't they they used to not think
that you know they used to think they totally were isolated but I I think the evidence now is showing and that the second one the second reason I think
about the main reason why this model has never been discovered is because of the narrow neck right because in the Book of
Mormon we have some things that have to like the internal model is really consistent and so you have to have a
land northward you have to have a land southward you have to have a sea east you have to have a sea west you have to have a river siden and there has to be a
narrow neck of some sort between the land northward and the land southward and for the longest time you know it has
there's seven references in the Book of Mormon to either the narrow neck the narrow strip of land and then there's
also the narrow passes and a lot of people thought well the narrow passes are the same as the narrow neck and so it's got to be this really narrow thing
that's like a day and a half to a day's journey across and it has to be between the land northward and the land southward and it's like no that's that's
actually not in the text and and it doesn't even make sense because a day's journey is only like 20 miles wide
there's there's not even Panama is even close to that you know Panama is like 150 miles wide so it it it doesn't make
sense when you hold it in that way but once you realize it's like oh okay the narrow neck and the narrow passes are a
little bit different from each other narrow passes are kind of like subsets of the narrow neck and the narrow neck is actually um I believe um basically
Baja California so it's it's kind of like right now in our mind if you were to try to deliminate and and explain to
people the difference between Mexico and and America you'd say "Well the border is up there by the Rio Grand." Mhm well
back then all the travel went along West Mexico the West Mexico corridor right
yeah which is Matlan all that area it's really one of the most fertile areas in all of Mexico um and and so what their
delimiting factor was it was the narrow neck it's like the thing that that changes is you go up past there and as
soon as we have Baja which creates this huge rain shadow then everything becomes desolate which is why they call it desolation right and then that's kind of
the the barrier between the two lands north forward and southward were deliminated by this narrow neck but okay
so just explain but but but Baja is obviously off to the west on the other side of the Sea of Cortez so if I'm
going through a trade route let's say as an example or uh you know and that that's really what defines I think the
what what most people are talking about i think it's the same thing with Lehi as he's traveling through Arabia and whatnot but it's it's like but that's
off to the west it's not really something that you're going to cross correct right and that and that's why
I'm well nothing actually happens on the narrow neck like the narrow neck is only mentioned three times in the Book of Mormon and nothing happens on it it
always is by the neck so it's just a defining marker that they know it's up in that area but they're not crossing it
yeah because most of their transport is happening by ships anyway i mean Haggath tells us that there's all these other boats it says they're they're doing
shipping along the coast up and down along the Pacific exactly and then maybe even up into the Sea of Cortez yeah yeah
exactly where your your cruises go you know i mean they go basically from Port of Aarta up into Baja and it's like And
the narrow neck is what sits between them and there's a narrow pass that is talked about in the Book of Mormon and
it really is only a day and a half journey wide right there Matalan and if you've been there you know exactly you've got this coastal plane and it
just rises into the Sierra Madre right and that coastal plane would be easy to kind of like build a fortification
across and be like well this is the deliminating factor between our land northward and our land southward right here on this stage journey narrow pass
that that that blocks the travel corridor up west Mexico and nobody traveled up the interior right i mean
even into the times of um the concistadors nobody went up the interior
that that area there was no settlements there there were no little cities i mean the first major the cities that are
there right now they weren't built till the late 1800s you had to have wells because it is so inhospitable in that massive Mapini desert i'm guessing you
know Mexico fair you're talking about going up into the Elbio into the colonial areas because those are
colonial cities and you go up starting with Cetro going up into Sallaya going
Leon up to San Luis Poto those are all in the interior there are some fertile areas i mean you got San Miguel de Yende
which is really beautiful and fertile but uh I I I Are those the areas you're talking about going up there yeah and
I've driven it you know i drove all the way down on both the east and west sides i I took my son and we Yeah I've been
all throughout those areas yeah and there's some big like uh Torion it's a big city it's got a million people there
is no archaeological ruins down there like the south of there there's a lot of them because you got rain but as soon as
you hit that Mapini Quila desert that big huge desert there is nothing because
uh in the hot season at least there was no water all the rivers went dry there was nothing you didn't travel through
there there was no You're getting up into that area pushing up toward Toriion is this is this where we're talking desolation now yep to Chihuahua
yeah and and that area is just I think in their minds there's like I said there's not a single archaeological site
in that entire region um all the way from Montter on one side right from the Sierra Madre west to the Sarah Madre
east that entire interior upper basin is just there's nothing archaeologically because they just didn't live there i mean there's walls of cactuses that are
so like even you drive through them now you're like "Wow how' they even put the highway through this?" You couldn't get through this without a like front end
loader to push your way through these 10-ft tall cactus forests they're pretty wild right but yeah so that that's part
of desolation but all of their travel went up the coastal passes and so the co when it talks about the narrow passes
these are those narrow passes on east and west Mexico and they're on these coastal plains that are about a day's journey
wide right right and so and so once you really like get into that and and and I
I have articles on all these things and I've got every single scripture so you can read them very carefully then you then you kind of realize oh well okay
that makes sense if these passes aren't the same as the narrow neck and nothing actually happens on the
narrow neck and maybe even in their minds things kind of went narrower you know but because some of the early Spanish map makers kind of drew a
peninsula up in northern Mexico because no one knew what it looked like because there was no one who traveled through there because it was just this impassible desert
then then suddenly your land northward and your land southward start to make a lot of sense like especially when when
we talk about it the most obvious indicate like if you were going to name something right let's let's say you were
going to use like the most obvious name for a place in the US like where where
would be the land of many waters where has many waters like back east right I
mean there's nothing compares to it even if you live in Mexico it doesn't compare to back east like that's the land of many waters if If you're going to go at
a land of large bodies of water they're like larger to exceed all the Great Lakes if if you're going to talk about
an area that is desolate that has no timber that people build out of cement like with the Anastasia you know the
Southwest it's like of course if you're going to talk about an area that is bountiful where most of North America's
like vegetables come from West Mexico it's like the Sacramento Valley of California right it is so absolutely
bountiful and all the way up through the northern Mexican highland that's where all our food comes from and that's where all the population always has been right
that's why Tetukon is so much bigger than even the Mayan um cities because that that's where the population is now
like 60% of Mexico lives in the Mexican highland between Guadalajara and Mexico City that is bountiful right and so and
so the the names are actually pretty um self-evident they're like the most
obvious geographic features you can but it's just that narrow neck that I think has gotten in everyone's mind and kind of confused them well it seems to me
that what you're saying is is kind of the opposite you know because what happens is this right i mean the idea
early on with the saints Joseph Smith and and and the saints around them and then probably going in throughout the
19th century is that that is exactly it is they find these ruins which started to happen right in that 19th century and
there was a greater knowledge of what was happening or what of of of these ruins and civilizations in the 19th
century they started saying oh well these are Book of Mormon lands and this is obvious these are large civilizations
etc as time went on the scholarship with Latter-day Saints turned to the opposite
direction right because they didn't feel there was enough evidence and so it was more like well there is this these are
there are these hidden areas where we just haven't discovered them yet that that you know is is where
the Nephites must have been and the Lammonites must have been now they do say the Mayans and the Mesoamerican
model but but still it's it's more of a right it it's more of a we need to
really pull back the the the historical wool from our eyes here to be
able to see where everything is you're doing the exact opposite you're going right you're leaning right into No this
is Teot Wakan this is these areas this is uh the these are the obvious areas
that we still see today that we would name as bountiful or
etc which is kind of interesting i mean you're leaning directly into it yeah yeah and I mean and and in my mind like
so all of the amazing things that the other models have found like like the Heartland models as example like their
their research is so great like Rod and Jonathan Neville they have done such an
amazing work because I I think the church like you said they've gone so far both directions they went so far into
the Mesoamerican model especially there in the 60s through 80s that they were discounting all the quotes by Joseph
Smith all the evidence that that is up there in the heartland area and it's there's some solid evidence Right and in
my in my model that is the land of Mulich like that's where the Mulikites landed originally before they went you
know it says that they landed up and and found Coranimer and then came up into the south wilderness near Zarimla right
in mind they end up founding um Shalenzingo and and there's all this evidence that's where you find all these
motifs of bearded men and I mean there's actually performed Egyptian right near there that you find written on a huge
slab there there's a lot of really incredible evidence but so in my model the Heartland stuff all the stuff that they found that is the strong evidence
that they key in it's it's right on it's legit and it's they did like an important work in helping the church realize that it's like yeah the Nephites
were up there that was the land northward that was the land of many waters that is the land of Mulich but but when it comes to like actual
geography that's where their model just falls apart because Alma 22 is clear and you combine that with Alma 50 there's
there's no mistaking that there is a sea west of Zerahheimla right there has to be a sea
west of Zerheima and the land of Nephi and I if you want to go to right here
and and I'm just flash to it here in a second but can you see like there's
Zerahimla is there is no sea west of Zarah Himla here like it doesn't matter where you want to put the Nephi land of
Nephi landla if if you have Zarah Himla and it's already west of the river the
Mississippi River which they say is like the river Siden but they also say maybe it's the west sea and it's like what make up your mind is is is it a sea or
is it a river you think that they call it a river in some cases and and a sea and the other that just makes no sense like your model falls apart and then if
you compare that to Alma 50 where it says that Moroni built a string of
cities he defended the border from the sea east to the sea west between the Nephites and the Leammonites like where
are you going to put that in the heartland you you think that the eastern cities that it talks about in Alma 50
through 53 you know Moroni Lehi all the way up to Mu are like along the east sea here and then it says that he built a
string of cities going to the west sea so then where is that where's your cities they don't they don't exist and you have to have a city that's west of
Zerimla i mean that's even made totally clear in Elma 53 through through 60 where they go to the city by the sea and
then they get captives and they start heading to Zerahimla from the land of Manti like you if you read through those
chapters you'll find things fall apart incredibly quickly in the heartland model it's it's actually untenable you
can't even make it work like not only are you trying to make things a thousand miles across that it's putting in in a
pretty short area you you don't have a seed west of Zarah so now it doesn't even work you know and and so the I and
then Haggath you know I've they've got this idea now that Haggath like went up into Lake Superior and then went up
above the Northwest Passage into the Arctic Circle to get to New Zealand i mean really like that that is like the
craziest mental gymnastics but if if instead you realize it's like no all of your all of your your really good stuff
like everything that they've found that is so amazing it fits in perfectly to the Book of Mormon if you realize this is the land of Muik this is the land
northward this is the land of many waters so hopefully hopefully that kind of makes sense oh so looking at this
Muich would have landed in North America and and they followed a natural trade
route because that's where the how trade routes are developed even if it didn't exist before then but it probably did
they followed a normal trade route that came down and brought them down to Zerahhemla for whatever reason they
migrated yeah yeah but and and there's not a lot of information of exactly where Muik but there's traditions that
they came in through the Great Lakes and and Rod Meldder those guys have talked about that and that's that's very
possible you know they maybe they came in through the Great Lakes maybe they came down the East Coast um who knows
right so the Mesoamerican models they've got a major problem too right their geography does not work sornson's model
does not work like I say all these things if you actually I read Sorson stuff and again I'm not really into this stuff that much i you know I I don't get
into it as much as I do some other things but I I have always had
reservations always had reservations with Sor's stuff yeah i mean it's got
it's got major problems so the biggest problems the the inter internal model of the Book of Mormon is incredibly consistent right if you go to my website
I have like I have an article that's probably let's see what is it i'll bet
uh right here the Book of Mormon and internal model like I said I've been working on these things for 20 years
probably 50 pages on just every internal reference to the geography of the Book
of Mormon right and everything that has to happen you know and it it talks specifically about you know here's right
here at the top you can see these parts where it's like you have to have a west sea west of Zerahheimla west of the land
of Bountiful west of the land of Nephi you know but the the thing that doesn't work with the Sornson model is these
east coast cities because when you have the war with the Lammonites they first come in and they hit um my thing isn't
working but they hit Omnner Gid Mulich they take all the cities of the east sea and work their way all the way up to the
narrow pass up near desolation right so this is after Moroni has built this new
border so Moroni builds a new border and it goes all the way from the city by the sea on the west sea to the east sea like
you can read these in Elma 50 it gets really specific about this new border that he builds where he like pushes the border southward it used to be at the um
River Siden and he pushes it southward into the narrow strip of wilderness and then there's these cities that he builds
right there in the corner and they get taken by the Amalachites they go all the way east well so you take that and you
try and make that work with the the model here in Meso America it does it doesn't work because the Yucatan
Peninsula is in the way you can't have a city that's by the sea and then they work their way up like just read those
chapters and you'll be like "Wow this absolutely does not work." And then not only that go ahead that one model you're
putting up there is that the BYU model yeah this is the the Sornson Grihalva yeah not that one maybe that is also but
there's one you were just looking at i think that there's a BYU oh yeah yeah yeah so on on my article um
right here then this one is Yeah and all of these are all these
are independently done and they really they match pretty well and the reason why they match is because the internal
model with this within the scriptures is really consistent right i I drew my first internal model right here this is
one that I made in seminary i did this in 10th grade and I did it without the help of their internal models this is
before the internet right and look how much it looks like their internal models right this is me in 10th grade as a kid
bas I read through the entire Book of Mormon in one day right and I I went through and I just like I don't know i I
was just like really into geography from you know 16 years old and my model matches with their models and it doesn't
look like either the Mesoamerican or the Ghava models right there as far as the things that are certain which is the inc
the internal relationships of these things where it says north and south like the string of cities that Moroni builds Zarahimla Nephi they're really
consistent and so when you start trying to make these like I I I have to say that the number one thing that that is
frustrating with me when it comes to the Mesa American model is they have this because Everything's rotated 45° right
because their land northward is actually uh west yes and so they come up with this you know that's because the uh the
the land moves starts to is moving northwest to southeast right right
that's how that's how the land is and their their reasoning is like well it's because the Nephi the Hebrew versus the
Egyptian coordinate systems were rotated and they use this logic that you have in Egyptian where some Egyptian maps have
like north facing southward whereas some Hebrew maps have north facing the uh
facing westward the Mediterranean Sea but but let me just say first anyone who holds to that idea that says oh yeah it
totally works this 45 degree rotation works because of this Hebrew explanation that's baloney that's bologn and you
know how we know it's baloney because it gives the directions when they go through the wilderness and it says exactly what direction they go along the
Red Sea and it says they go south and then southeast and then it says they head east through Yemen it is clear in
Nephi that they are using the same coordinate system that we use right and so to say that it's rotated that's just
baloney it's totally inconsistent interesting and both the Heartland and the Meso models have these like crazy
inconsistencies that they use in their mind to kind of clear up problems um but
but once you once you kind of see like oh this this model doesn't require you to do those mental gymnastics you know
you there's actually a model out there that that you can just have everything work every everything is the direction
it needs to and not only that your city of Zarahimla is the biggest ruins on the North American continents your city of
Nephi is also one of the biggest ruins that has like evidence of east facing two room temples with two columns like
every there there's so much evidence um and then not only that it ends fitting with Joseph Smith right because Joseph
Smith he has we have a lot of quotes from Joseph Smith and early prophets and I've assembled all of them like I have
an article um on my website that that gives every single quote by Joseph Smith
right if you just go to go to my site here and then you just look right here there's a link Joseph Smith's
Continental Model and you can see every quote that's attributed to Joseph Smith
pages and pages and pages of them and not only that every single one of them is linked like you can go and see the
original so if you don't trust me every one of them you can go to the original but if you look at his quotes it's a
continental model and when we're saying continental model we're talking North America yep yep not hemispheric right
right hemispheric model is like what Sydney Rigdon and some of these other guys believed in and and it has the book
or Zarah himla possibly being in South America yeah panama is the narrow neck yeah but the only thing that that that
somebody quoting Joseph Smith puts in South America is the landing right they have Joseph Smith landing in in South
America and I I believe him why not believe Joseph Smith why not believe him it actually actually makes really sense really good sense given the ocean
currents and I can cover that in a minute because the ocean currents end up hitting you right into like Chile or somewhere there yeah if you take the the
roaring 40s which is where all the Anyway I'll talk about that in a second but they have the Heartland the Zarahima
and Nephi being in Meso America right there's several quotes and the Heartlanders all dismiss this using kind of like complex logic but I say why not
believe it they have Zerahimla or desolation being in the southwest there's like three separate quotes of
desolation being in northern Mexico and the southwest um uh US and both the
Heartland and Mesame American models they completely dismiss those quotes and then he has lots of quotes with Zelf you
know and the the hills of the Nephites and all these quotes and Kamura being in New York being Kamora so why why not
just believe it when he has a model that actually is very consistent it's a North American model it matches exactly with
what I'm saying is my model um why not just believe his quotes right why so so why are the Nephites in in North America
and when I say North America I'm talking about the Midwest the US so they they first start to go up
there um with Haggath in mass right and so Haggath remember he he it's like
5,000 men and their wives and children so this is probably like a group of 20,000 people in one joy voyage going to
the land northward and then it says and then many more went up and then it talks about other times where it's like there's just constantly this push of
groups going north right and so and that's the land of Mulich and so in my model we constantly have groups that are
heading from the heart uh up into you know the heartland the US from Mexico
traveling up the west coast of Mexico yeah yep almost always occasionally up the east coast but almost always up the
the coast of West Mexico because the getting over to the Midwest and the eastern seabboard that it'd be easier to
go up the east coast yeah i mean if it if it weren't for hurricanes it would be Okay so and I think that's the main
reason why there's just not very many archaeological ruins up the east coast of Mexico because the hurricane that's
hurricane alley especially once you hit Texas you just you don't want to be there in the fall um you're screwed if
you do and so they head up west and that and that's where all the kind of settlements ended up being and they can
take rivers right because they can go up the sea they can go up the Hila River into So I think that the um the Valley
of Phoenix was actually the Hooakeim um all the way from early times was a major hub of the Nephites and the Anastasia as
well that was a major hub of the the people of desolation right and then they would go up through New Mexico and they
could jump into the Arkansas River and once you hit the Arkansas River then you can tap into the Mississippi and that's like their highway system right and and
if you follow that highway to its nethermost reaches it takes you to Kamura right the very top of the Ohio is
basically Kamora yeah interesting yeah a natural trade route
okay interesting okay so so back up and let's talk a little bit more about the uh the landing of of Lehi why are they
down in South America and Chile and then they all of a sudden move northward all the way up to Mexi the Mexico Valley ah
okay let's see well and and and talk about the land of Nephi in between there
so the big reason is is because the that's where the ocean currents are okay so this this is kind of interesting
because you this is another thing where there's so much misinformation there it's just crazy the amount of misinformation that a lot of people be
will say like especially the heartlanders will say oh you can't go eastward across the Pacific Ocean you
know and it's like h first of all we know that that's false because the Aronesians did it right they started in
Indonesia and they made their way all the way across to Easter Island you know inhabited all those islands including Hawaii they were constantly going
eastward um but the the big thing is if you if you read about all of the record holders for people who sail around the
earth in fact even if you just watch that new movie on Netflix a true spirit about that girl who who was the first
solo young girl to sail around the earth they all do it in this track can you see
my cursor there just south of Australia they call it the roaring 40s right the
furious for 40s and the roaring 50s like between the 40 and 50th parallel is the fastest way to get around the earth and
I believe the ancient mariners knew this as well right and I I believe that's why instead of heading out through the um
like all the Phoenicians would have and like I actually believe Muik went out through the Mediterranean went up to um
to England and then made his way across but instead Lehi is instructed to go all the way south right go 2,000 miles this
is another funny thing he travels 2,000 miles and yet they think that the Nephites couldn't go 2500 miles to
Kamura from from Mexico to Kamura which is like 2500 miles it's hilarious 2,000 miles from Jerusalem to more or less
Oman or whatever yep yep it's literally 2,000 miles so it's the same distance as going from like Utah to Mexico City uh
it's kind of funny okay so they they go there and then I think they head south to this sailing trackway because once
you can hit those winds you go straight across and then you can hook your way up the coast of South America because
that's where the prevailing winds take you and that's really actually the fastest way to do it and this is crazy so all all these quotes I hear at the
bottom like this was done as early as the 1600s where they found this this secret travel way to get across the
ocean that you you always head south the the record is 40 days like making it all
the way around the world in 40 days because those winds are so fast right that that's insane and not only that
those record holders they have to make a way up here to the equator and touch the equator and then come back down just so
they can make the distance and say that it's a true circumnavigation west winds they're pushing you east yeah yeah and
they're they're crazy fast and so I believe the Leona took them south probably past Kamoros which is probably
where that word got into the Book of Mormon so past the Kamoros Islands past Madagascar um which actually speaks
speaks an Aronesian language because the Arnesians had this maritime shipping lane that they probably would have known
about and then they head to those roaring 40s and go all the way across and that's why they land in South America right and make their way up and
I think they were following a travel route that existed all the way back from the times of Joseph right in Egypt
because I think the earliest like the Amalachites the reason why the Amalachites are in the Book of Mormon is because they are they're a biblical
people right that's not like a new name the Amalachites were people that were conquered by King David they were the
hikes um so these Amalachites in the old world had a um they were basically the
tail end of a global culture that then collapsed at the time of Moses and so I think that a lot of the earliest um
mound sites that you have in America actually date back to a culture that spanned between Egypt and the New World
and Britain anyway that's that's a whole another thing there's a lot of really interesting uh I think evidence of of a
global empire that existed during the Bronze Age um that made its way to America and that they kind of exploited
those same shipping routes okay so and and so I think I think there was actually a lot more travel i have an
entire book that I'm writing on evidence that connects the old world and the new world and it's pretty it's pretty
convincing like there's some amazing evidence that I think that it'll be less than 20 to 30 years before all academia
is convinced that there was pre-Colombian contact right because the evidence that's that's getting that's
mounting is like pretty overwhelming um I agree and I think it it span it starts
from the Bronze Age and goes all the way to Roman times and then it collapses so during the dark age of Christ you look
at it and you look at the Book of Mormon just just looking at the Book of Mormon you have three different
peoples three different peoples the only three peoples that are mentioned in in in in the Book of Mormon
and they all come from the old world and they all end up in the new world
that that is not a coincidence yeah and that's three that are mentioned yeah and those are the three that are mentioned
and then we get and then we get people like Laconius with a Latin name and we're like well what the heck how do we suddenly have a Latin name in the Yeah
yeah the the generals in the final battle like look up how many those ones are split half of them are like Latin or
Greek and half of them are um Indonesian so that that's another I I could go into
a whole thing about how Indonesian names are getting into the Book of Mormon um but I think I think this is once again
why not just believe our prophets are prophets that are so sure that Haggath you know and a second or third voyage or a son who ended up getting lost at sea
went all the way over to New Zealand i think that there was contact between Austronesia which was kind of this
maritime empire um that basically ruled the trade routes between China and Africa that's why Madagascar speaks
Austronesian is because they there was this silk road a maritime silk road you can look this up on Wikipedia that existed all the way back to the Bronze
Age and they they ruled travel between China and Africa china even back then was pulling all these resources out of
Africa and shipping them to China and so these Austronesians they were amazing mariners all the way back to the Bronze Age and they were coming to America
right and they were they were bringing stuff in the same way that people were coming across the Atlantic um like
Brendan the Navigator there's all sorts of like obscure middle a middle-aged age people who are coming to across the
Atlantic you know before the Vikings even lance what about what about timing
though i mean like you look at at Zerahhemla that's an Aztec empire what you know civilization
what isn't the timing off on that on the on the civilization on the on the uh on
the Aztec civilization so my my dates match exactly and this I have a very scientific background and so I I don't
present it unless it is very like scientifically based unlike some of these other groups but when it comes to
like my city of Nephi which is Monte Alban Monte Albban is colonized at 600
BC like Right in fact it's like 550 550 to 580 BC it is exactly the time period
that's needed and my Zerahhemla right which is in the valley of Morelos so it starts with the original Zarahla which
is Sha Kanzingo which gets inhabited really early like 8 700 BC by Mulikites I think even earlier than Mulikites and
then it kind of moves its way in and starts to go up north toward um the the city of Puebla where some of the biggest
pyramids are but when it comes to Teatuan Teatouicon um I think Laconius when it talks about
how Laconius formed a new city like remember how they get in this big war with the Gatan robbers and the gadan
robbers get so bad that they all have to gather into one central area and it says the area that they chosen was the land
of Zarahheimla and the land of the border of of Bountiful and Zerheimla well I think I think they founded the
city of Teatouan and Teot Tukuan just like comes out of nowhere and they they wonder whether there was like a why they
abandoned other cities to suddenly form this huge multicultural metropolis like the biggest city that ever existed in
North America by far um and it just springs up overnight at the exact same time that the Book of Mormon says Laconia just does its thing right like
150 BC the exact time the city just pops out of nowhere and within a hundred years it's got pyramids the size of the
pyramids in Egypt right and so and and people are like well it's crazy why and why is it so multicultural because
there's a Zapotech center there's a Wztec center there's a um Toltech or a
center of the the natives so why why are there all these multicultural groups coming together it's like the Book of
Mormon tells tells the story and it fits exactly at the time period like you can't you can't get a better match than
that it's It's really pretty amazing um and even the land northward and the times that they're coming up the matches
are pretty amazing um time-wise there's there's only two time differences that I
have kind of different theories on and one is my Geredites and one is my final
battle and final battle yeah I I'll explain really quick so my my reasoning
with the Geredites is I think that there's something wrong with the dates and it's you could you could say it's
either the scriptures dates that are wrong or it's the um archaeological dates that are wrong but I believe when
it talks about there being elephants with the gerodites that that is talking about mammoths and mastadons
right about the the Clovis culture so So if you're if you're familiar
because the the Book of Mormon kind of really seems to suggest the Gerodites are the first people there right right i can't I can't
remember the wording that it says but it basically is is really kind of suggesting like there's nobody there and
you're founding this this city or this this continent right it says something
like after the waters of the flood had receded you know that that that they were brought to this choice land and that no other people were brought where
whereas with the Nephites we have lots of hints that there were people there right like from the earliest days there
we've got like Jacob talking to these huge crowds you know that suddenly are way bigger than than what would be
possible if they'd only been there for 40 years and they're practicing polygamy talk to them that are seemingly from a
different civilization yeah with names that have etmologies there there's lots of hints that like there were people
there that Nephi is like actually inheriting a group that already existed in in that valley of Nephi which the
archaeological archaeology proves for my my land of Nephi but with the Geredites it it seems to suggest they're the first
people there and then it talks about how they had elephants elephants kurams and kumans and so it's like but why would
they even put those kurams and kumans unless it was and it says that all of which were useful for the food of man
but especially the elephants and kurams and kumans so it's like these were their main food source they're eating the elephants the kurams and the kumans and
then it says that there was a huge dir right and that they follow these animals and they said they devoured them all so
we get this idea it's like there's these mega there's these big animals there's animals that are extinct that are like the elephants that were useful for man
for the food of man and then they there's some huge climate event and they hunt them to extinction well that's
exactly what science finds happened with the clovis culture which is the first Indian culture on the continent with the
um the mega the megapana right so the mammoths the mastadons the parathenium
and it and it talks about you know it shows how all the animals match but especially it shows like these early
animals that the man hunted right and it it really matches well right right and
it gives these scriptures there that this whole dir that that kills them just
really matches almost perfectly with what we know about the megapona extinctions and the um the these animals
weren't from thousands or tens of thousands of years earlier well and so that's that's that's my point that's why
I'm hitting on this because archaeology dates this extinction at about 9 to 7,000 BC right but the Book of Mormon
gives zero dates but it kind of suggests it says the Tower of Babel you know which we kind of sometimes think was
20,000 BC but it gives no date and so then it's like well okay here we have a a total difference most of my dates
match perfectly except for these two examples and this is one of them where we have something from science that's dated at 7,000 to 9,000 BC and something
in the Book of Mormon that it doesn't give us a perfect date but it's not 11,000 BC or 7,000 BC so maybe there's a
lacuna in the Book of Mormon and maybe the Book of Mormon like jumps way back in the past without telling us you know when that king list of the Geredites or
maybe the the radiocarbon dates are wrong because maybe when the ice age ended um and you had the um let's see
what is the massive event that killed off drawing a blank but anyway this is my specialty um maybe that that huge
event affected radiocarbonates so it depending on whether you want to be like a scriptural purist or whether you want
to be like on a scientific footing there's a difference in the dates but there's ways to explain both of them
and then I have one other timeline that I kind of I offer two timelines on the destruction period um and I give kind of
explanations on it's like maybe the same thing happened maybe there's a problem with the radiocarbon dates or maybe the destruction of of of the Nephites you're
talking about Kamora kamora mhm yeah because so there's on one end I'll just
go with what the other models and what science shows and we just talk about you know the the initial collapse of
Teatukon where there was a major um attack that happened about 350 BC where where the Ketaquata cult was destroyed
and there was a bunch of buildings destroyed and then we find a couple little evidence archaeological evidences of battles and then we have the Hopewell
culture that kind of collapses at that same time m so maybe that's evidence that we're seeing from the Book of Mormon but that evidence pales in
comparison to what we see at radiocarbon dates of 1050 BC or AD at 1050 AD um we
have a trail of destruction of every single culture on the continent collapsing all the way from the Valley of Mexico to Kamora right and and I have
I have at least 12 different sites where battles took place like pretty much every battle that's mentioned in the Book of Mormon in that 59-year retreat
from the land of Zarahheimla right that and this this is another crazy one right because so Mormon he's raised in the
land of desolation and then his father takes him to the land of Zerahheimla and the the impression that we get when he
says he's like the people were like the sands of the sea like we we get this impression like he's coming from desolation from this area where there's
just not a lot of people and he's never seen so many people and he goes into to Zarah himla and he's like wow there are so many people here and then there's a
war starting and as soon as the war starts they immediately go back up to Bountiful and then back to desolation and then get chased all the way up to
Kamora right to the land of many waters so in in the archaeology we see the
Toltech Empire a th000 AD right there in the Valley of Mexico um having these major battles and then collapsing and
then this massive wave of people heads up to the southwest they go up West Mexico and there's a bunch of huge
burial mounds in West Mexico that show that there were battles there which is my the beginning my borderland of desolation and bountiful and then into
the Anastasia lands and the Anastasia in the southwest in the Hokim in the valley of the sun there in Phoenix they all
completely collapse at 1050 AD right there's this massive buildup from 850 to 1050 AD and then they collapse and and
you see all the evidence in the Book of Mormon happened like to a T because in the Book of Mormon it talks about cannibalism the only place that we have
pervasive cannibalism is the Anastasia right like we now call them the ancient but the Anazi it says that they lived in
houses of cement we see that in the Anastasia right even even things like the tower of Sherzah where it says that
men women and children were like burned alive like we see that in Salmon ruins like the exact thing that we need like
the cannibalism the the everybody just it says that whoever's flight was not
faster um than that of the Lammonites um was killed right and it says and they
burned their cities like we see that exact same thing in the Anastasia and and not only that it says that there was like a treaty between them and the
Lammonites um anyway there's a Sarah Tancheras thing where they had this signal system all the way from the coast
of of Baja California from the um Sea of Cortez they could send signals all the
way up to Phoenix through these hilltop fire systems i don't know if you've ever heard of those the Sarah Trancheras
anyway and so then that collapses and as soon as that collapses then we see this massive population explosion in um the
the Heartland right so Cahokia builds up like crazy at that right as the
Anastasia are collapsing and then it collapses right and so then we have the string of city with the Mississippians
going all the way to Kamora where we have massive destruction just like the Book of Mormon says and not only that we
have like that where it talks about how that they offered up all the the daughters and sacrificed them in the Book of Mormon like we see that at
Cahokia but it all dates at 1050 AD interesting and so and so I'm like this
is crazy because the archaeology is showing exactly like there's nowhere nowhere in the world but definitely nowhere on the continent that has almost
every single city and everything that's spoken of in that final battle it's all in the archaeology but it dates to 1050
AD so why why is it is it a coincidence did history repeat is is the Book of
Mormon date wrong um I have a theory on maybe that or is the archae archaeology date wrong is there a problem with the
the carbon dates was there some kind of reservoir effect that that ended up causing a a corruption the carbon dates
like the Holat plateau did in the old world um anyway there's lot there's lots of theories we can go into there but the
the amount of evidence is is overwhelming it's pretty awesome uh so that's all fascinating that's really
interesting stuff um I want to move on from here we're going to have you back because I want to talk more about this
but I want to move on i just want to talk about one other thing uh and that is your your uh timeline of the pharaohs
and and and how this matters right why does it matter that we get the timeline
of the pharaohs correct oh man you know it it matters probably most people don't
care but if you care about archaeology we've got the exact same problem in the Old World as we have in the New World where there's so many people who point
to the Book of Mor look there's just not great evidence and so it's not true well believe it or not outside of the
Christian community like no one even believes that King David was a real person mhm right the the Bible is clear
that King David ruled all the way from the Euphrates to the Nile River into Egypt right there is zero evidence of
that in the archaeological record right and so almost all of the dynastic period
of Israel is discounted in the archaeology and by any like mainstream archaeologist and I think that the
reason for that is is because we've got the dates wrong and once you change the dates once you adjust the dates by 400
years um and I I've read so if you go I'll just show you my site really quick if you go to my archaeology section
one of the issues with the dates often times is that they use numbers differently than we
do right often times they're using numbers in a metaphorical sense they mean something and they knew this
internally they they they understood it they didn't care as much about the chronology they didn't care as much
about you know exact periods of time they cared about what the meaning of everything was and I'll give you an
example even with you know a lot of people have an issue i don't know if this is where you're going on this but a
lot of people say well there's Ramsy's the Great which is Ramsey's I versus Aminateep the second and is it which one
of the pharaohs was the pharaoh during the time of the Exodus and it's you it's
so hard to pin anything like this down because the book of Kings for example it
talks about 40 years and you're like okay is that really 40 years because they use 40 years all the time to
basically mean this is the time that it takes to fulfill something or a long period of time there's you have to you
have to coincide that with the timeline of Moses was Moses really 40 years old when
he left Egypt and then was he really gone for 40 years and he came back as an
80 year old man to leave the Israel out of out of out of Egypt yeah and died at
120 yeah yeah it's like this is it it's I I don't believe
that you know I don't believe that that's the case in the timeline but you know you have people are taking these
things and lining them up with with the chronology of the pharaohs to find out who the the pharaoh of the Exodus is in
there it's it's a very difficult thing to do yeah i mean I I went and kind of used these same principles and I have a
spreadsheet where I I've cataloged every single pharaoh i read through every bit
of the history written by Mantho and Herodotus right and Josephus like all
the experts from and like Diodoris he is the one the main chronicler of Mantho
like we've got we've thousands of pages and I went and I created this um
spreadsheet basically of every single pharaoh you know through all of dynastic
Egypt and and what I found is like my gosh so the the problem with their history
which which is really pretty cool right boils down to two different things the first thing is radiocarbon dates so most
archaeologists because radiocarbon dating is really a geological tool it's not so much even though archaeologists use it like it's the geologists that
really understand it the best so there's a lot of archaeologists that don't really understand the Holy Plateau and the Holy Plateau is this plateau in
radiocarbon correlation dating that happens around like the mid iron age you
know maybe 600 BC and stretches to at least a thousand BC where dates are
completely off right and so I think because that halat plateau people keyed into the dates they were already given
in um Mantho but those dates are off I think by 400 years well those dates are
also I mean I know a little bit about this right because you're you're going into Egypt now but it's the these historians contradict
themselves even often times they're contradicting you go into Josephus or you know or or uh Herodotus or or
anybody else there there there's a contradiction even in their statements on when things happen
yeah and they'll they'll quote Montho but then they'll go in and say "No this is something else here and this happened
at a different time." Yeah yeah like like Josephus might have been the first to kind of really get everybody think
and who knows whether he's accurately quoting Mana or whether he's improperly quoting him but he's the one who's saying that the Hikos are Israelites
that are in Egypt um during the like time of Joseph right to Moses right and
that that is the big problem because I think the Hikos are actually the Amorites who went into Egypt and then
David conquered right and so the Hikos are well known and their last pharaohs are wellknown and their last pharaohs
rule um 17th dynasty 15th through the 17th you've got these Hikos pharaohs who
rule for exactly 40 years right and these final pharaohs get chased out by Amos and uh okay so this this is the
part that's really cool because I think that two of these pharaohs are actually David and Solomon right the ones that rule for 40 years i think that they are
Egyptian records of David and Solomon and the thing that's really cool about them is they have this capital city in
Avarice and they'd ruled Avarest for like 250 years you know they they they conquered the Delta basically even
though they know that they're Canaanites but but their final rulers um in this huge palace they find all these chopped
off arms or hands in in that um area and then they know that almost conquers them
and chases them out well that's basically what you could what you could see in the Bible from David like Saul
conquers all the way to a city that it says is by the Nile River which archaeologists say "No there's no evidence of that." I say that's avarest
and and we know that that that uh tradition of chopping off hands it's all over in the Bible during that time
period during the time of Saul it says that Saul and David like did that and so I think that that is like Saul conquered
the Amorites and the Canaanites the Philistines we know that that kind of Philistine kingdom extended down into
Egypt and then Saul conquered it and so basically David and Solomon ruled upper
Egypt or lower what is that lower Egypt right just for a short period like 80
years before then remember after Solomon loses the kingdom because the kingdom goes to Rabbam and Jeroboam and then it
says that the that who one of them forms an alliance with Egypt and the other one
gets conquered by Egypt right and so that king that conquers I say is almost which is different than what any other
like everyone else is kind of trying to follow Josephus and there's major problems with their kind of theory but
but this one like the one that I have is actually based on this document called the culbrin which is this ancient text
in um England which has like Egyptians coming into England it's a super interesting text um but it gives a lot
of Egyptian history and a lot of that Egyptian history has now been like verified through DNA testing of mummies and it gives different names for
everything but the one like nugget that it gives is it says that Amos conquers u it doesn't even mention David by name
but it said that there was a Canaanite king and that his daughter was like u disgraced and and slept with his brother
i can't remember what it is but it like fits perfectly with what happened to David and and Tamara and then it says that Amos Pharaoh almost conquered him
right it says that and chased him out of Egypt and I was like well that sounds exactly like David but it's putting him next to Amos well that totally doesn't
fit that's off by 400 years and so that like that was the beginning of me exploring this entire route and as soon
as I looked that up and started like correlating everything from that then all of a sudden um all these other
things start making a lot more sense even even um Aenatan and his monotheistic religion starts making
sense and and matching with Elijah and this story that's also in the culbrin that talks about something that sounds a
lot like Elisha and Elijah why what would Aanatan have to do with Elijah um okay so this is this is a wild
one that from what it sounds to me is and and it's you you just have to read
the culbrin but it sounds to me like there's some kind of a person like it it
tells it from the story from the viewpoint of Elisha and Elijah is like this huge prophet and he's revered even
by the Egyptians and Elisha converts not only um not only
sorry Elijah converts not only Elisha but converts the mother of this pharaoh that it calls Nabhhatand which is
Aenatan and so Aenatan's mother was converted by Elijah essentially in this
text and and what the the Amaro Amarna letters you know if you so all of those
letters when you read about that too it's like oh man those really sound like what's going on with the Assyrian um
destructions and and even even the Hittites like now suddenly the Hittites correlate with the Lydians and and and
so history completely repeats unless you do this trans this translation of time
and then you're like "Oh well it doesn't repeat at all this is the exact same story being told from two different perspectives one from the Egyptian
perspective and one from the Greek perspective." Like my my my correlation
and I haven't read it completely but come to find out I think that it actually matches almost exactly with
what um oh what's that what's that guy's name um the Russian scholar who came up
with like an Egyptian correlation i don't know i don't know who that is belikovski belikovski okay so you've
probably heard of Veliskski he's he's like from the 1960s or something like that he was a Russian scholar that has a
lot of really out there ideas geologically but like a lot of good historical ideas and after relying on
this Culbrin thing I've now found it's like oh it actually correlates with what Velikovski um did for his correlation um
in Egypt interesting anyway that's that's a whole there there's so much stuff with the Egyptian stuff there's a
lot lot there like once you kind of make that translation it another really cool thing that it changes is it makes the
18th and 19th dynasties correlative with the um dynastic period in in Israel
right so all the kings of Israel that go from David to the Babylonian captivity like that's the height of Israel well
that's also the height of the middle kingdom of of Egypt mhm and and we know
that there's like a there's tombs that are supposed to be found in the last days hopefully that have David and all those kings because it's all saying and
they were they were buried in the in the tombs of the kings right well that would be the exact same period that all of the
kings the the valley of the kings in Egypt is being created mhm right and and it would make sense because we we don't
remember this and it's the Book of Mormon kind of gives us the hint you know but Israel was a vassel to Egypt
that entire time yes like they were they were in the same culture that's why Nephi was like speaking Egyptian because
until the Babylonian captivity Israel was basically Egyptian the northern kingdom had been conquered by Egypt they
were fully a vassel and so the southern kingdom was like had some independence but they were still aligned with Egypt
for that entire period basically and then the northern kingdom again why why Nephi speaking Egyptian but but it's I I
think that I think Nephi is a scribe and I think the scribal scrolls were were originated in Egypt and I
think Joseph of Egypt was a scribe and he spoke Egyptian and and he's the one I
believe that Joseph of Egypt is actually the one who started the brass plates that's awesome and and and so he's
writing in Egyptian and it's not reformed Egyptian it is heretic and and he's bringing that
all the way down and eventually it ends up in Laban's hands and that's because their
whole and I would suggest when this when the when the kingdom this is a totally different subject but when the kingdom
split to the north the northern kingdom in Judah the northern kingdom is the one
that's actually very tied to Egypt because because Ephraim is the master
each Ephraim are the kings and Ephraim and Manasseh are are the ones that are
uh are carrying the legacy of Joseph right down and that's why the
Book of Mormon is such a Joseph centric book is because it's it's it's a
different DNA the brass plagues are not the Old Testament they're not the Old Testament
it's a totally different DNA they have a lot of the same books but it's not it's
not "Oh here's the perfect Old Testament the brass plates." I I I don't buy that at all oh that's awesome do you know we
could talk we could talk for hours about that because I got to get you reading the Culbran all right the Coburn c U L C
U L B R I N k K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K O O L B R N so it's in some cases spelled with a C but usually
K O L and it's on it's on my site but in fact it has so many words that actually
sound like quick like from your quick media yeah sure it has all cuz it's written in in Gaelic or something right
quick is quick is an old English word yeah like there's there's so many things in there but the entire first third of
that book is all Egyptian manuscripts and from the first time I read in fact it has temple ceremonies from Egypt that
like really have echoes of our temple ceremony interesting and from the first time I've read it I thought you know what this is what the brass plates are
like it's like this compilation of Egyptian manuscripts with Egyptian temple rights and all these really cool
stuff that a lot of the later Israelite religion kind of stemmed off of you know they're like the foundation from like
you're saying from Joseph because I think Joseph was was pharaoh of Egypt when Egypt was a global empire like when
they're building the pyramids um like it is this massive global empire for an entire age basically and then at
the time of Moses it just collapses and there's like a you know 400 year period of just complete collapse which is the
what is that the first or second intermediate period second intermediate period second yeah anyway the second
well that's fascinating stuff Lance really appreciate your time we'll we'll circle back around and maybe talk a
little bit off camera uh down the road and maybe maybe have some topics to develop and and to uh to discuss again
on another episode appreciate your time you have done so much work on this it's amazing i don't know if it's true but it
sure is fascinating i'm I'm I'm willing to look into it a lot more so appreciate your time no thanks a lot it's uh it's
great to being with you here