you know in terms of where the geographic area of the Book of Mormon lies there's kind of this battle between
the Heartland and the meso American model both sides have evidences but no
proof in this episode Wayne May who I would call an expert in the Heartland
model gives evidences of the Adena tribe as the actual mound builders in North
America and correlates them with the jaredites and the hope well as the
knightes that sit at a very similar time frame to the knightes so we're going to
go over several of those evidences that might support a hope well model now as I
was going through this episode I did some research and went through the scriptures and I used of course my favorite application for scripture
studies which is scripture notes I'm able to have several different chapters and Books open at the same time on the
same screen and then I've got Daniel the AI assistant which is I can't imagine doing scripture study without AI as an
example I did a simple query asking Daniel the AI assistant is the river seidon the Mississippi River it says in
the Book of Mormon river seidon is mentioned several times primarily in the context of nephite and limite history
history it was a significant geographic feature flowing past the Nephi city of zerah Hamlin that it goes on and on and
on don't do scripture study without scripture notes go to scripture notes.com now here we go
[Music]
all right welcome to Quick show my name is Greg Matson and I am your host in this episode we have brought on Wayne May expert on the Heartland model and
advocate for the Heartland model I'm very interested in what he has to say Wayne welcome to the show thank you Greg
glad to be here all right so we are going to talk all things North America here and uh get get an idea you know I'm
I'm pointed to you by several other individuals about uh what you've
discovered and researched on the Adena on the hope will Indians and really building a case for the Book of Mormon
taking place in North America I want to start with this I know you're a convert to the
church um what were you what got too involved in in looking into the the
history of the Book of Mormon and and finding a geographic match well put it very
simply uh growing up in Wisconsin I have had an arrowhead in my pocket since
about third grade I have been on Mounds I've been in fortifications I've watched
archaeologists take the ground apart and reveal things I mean I have been stuck
in the world of archaeology since a very very young age very young age now having
said that when I join the church I I I do I make this clear to all my podcasts
it's going to come up when I joined the church it had nothing to do with archaeology my conversion was spiritual
and I mean it was it was if I had a if the Lord said to me Wayne you one wish I
would say Okay experience I had that made me change my life I would give to
All My Children all seven of my kids that's what I would give them if I could
the experience that I had now with that in mind I have always been an armchair
archaeologist and in the dirt as much as I can and when I join the church I'm
learning the gospel everything's fine going through steps of the priesthood get my patriarchal blessing my temple
marriage and I'm still reading about hell in North America but at the same
time the church says everything's in South and Central America and I was okay with that it didn't matter to me I
wasn't looking for what I'm doing today I wasn't looking for that but I have to
tell you after about 18 years had passed 18 years and the the first the first
warning was in 1984 in the ins sign Dr senson did a two-part article claiming
that the Maya and the Hopewell were one and the same and I read I remember reading that clear as a bell I and it
kind of rubbed me the wrong way I just said wow I well whatever if the church said said it's okay it's okay I I I
wasn't there to pick a fight with anybody okay but in 1989 you got to remember our Temple
District was Salt Lake City and that's 1400 miles one way okay so my wife and I
we didn't get out there very often from Wisconsin but when we did she spent her time in the food storage stores and I
was in the bookstores downtown sa Lake after we did of course couple sessions the temple but I picked up a book
written by Dean C Jessie the Prophecies of Joseph Smith and then actually it's a forerunner to all the uh big books are
putting out now on on Joseph's journal and Diaries and all this all that stuff it's a forerunner and in there I read
that crucial letter that I had never ever seen in the church where Joseph had left Ohio traveled to the banks of the
Mississippi and he writes Emma a letter June 4th 1834 he says Dear Emma now it's in
pieces but I'm just going to stack all the stuff together into one deal he said we have crossed The Plains of the
Nephites wandering over the Mounds that once beloved people of the
Lord picking up their skulls and bones as proof of the Divine authenticity of
the Book of Mormon now I got to tell you when I read that my wife was driving and
I was in the car taking a rest and I was paging through my books I was so excited to get these books can't get them in Wisconsin okay so I I just had a pile of
books in the back and I looked over to my wife and I what I said to her made no
sense at all to her but I said Houston we got a
problem okay from that day forth I started really looking at the Maya and
the Hopewell and lining things up and I can tell you what I saw I saw a clear
path to North America along with Joseph steps and I have never taken a look at
Central America again but I am a defender of North America all the way
for Hopewell they are my guys they they line up with the book of Morman timeline 550 BC they
begin they end and this is all by non-mormon archaeologists they tell us the hope
well ends at 400 ad now you'll find Hope and material trailing off in the 450 475
years but the point is at 400 ad they have all said this Hopewell culture
begins at 550 BC ends at 400 ad and that's book Morman timeline I mean it's
there and when you go and walk their Forts and their cities that you see here now that have been preserved there's
there there's a lot to see A lot's been destroyed but there's plenty still to see and you read in Elma about the
fortifications ditches Banks of Earth wooden Palisades
Towers I got to tell you that's what we're finding in North America that's what we're finding it's all Hopewell so
now now there's a forerunner to the hope right the Adena that you talk about that is correct and and you there's a uh you
know there's a narrative out there that the hopel are the mound builders you really focus in and say well wait a minute here it looks to me more like
it's the Adena that were actually the mound builders uh of of North America
you line them up with the jedes I do now everything I've seen shows that they're
actually that they they start around 500 BC not so not so not so okay so
on your research how do you know they start earlier than that and you align them with the jaredites they started
moving the timeline back in the n in the in 1950s uh there was a guy by name a baby an archaeologist his last name is
baby and and Webb out of Kentucky and they said based on what they found with
the Adena we now believe that these guys have been here much much longer and I've
seen dates of 1500 and 1900 and 2000 BC back and they're so they're shoving way
back and now here's here's a real here's a real kicker for you when you look at the geometric Earthworks in Ohio which
have all been credited to Hope well and what you've said is true they didn't build them the Adena did but here they
just found this out four years ago they went to a to a hop hopon site that has
been completely leveled but from the air you can still see it through liar you can see the whole Rings the circles the
squares it's all there and they have bought the land from the farmers and they've preserved it and they've planted
weed weed bearing type plants that are hearty on all of the area that's marked out from the sky and it looks really
nice when you go to them you can see the whole homework it's it's incredible but the point is when they started doing
digging to date the ring well they got the first one back at about 150 BC that
was okay okay and then they went back a little further and they found a date hanging back at 250 300 BC well the
problem with that the archaeology will tell you the whole well don't arrive in in Ohio till 100 BC and then worse than
that they go back another one and they find a date of 375 BC this is not hell this is a Dena
timeline now I'm going to give the archaeologist credit most of the archaeologists in the midwest are still
claiming it's their Paradigm that hopwell did it all and I'm saying that is not true and it's going to come out
and the guys that are really leading the charge are the archaeologists in Indiana if you go to the Anderson Mound site in
Anderson Indiana you will see there in Earthworks that's just like all the hell Earthworks big circle squares the
alignments are all there and the boys in Indiana will tell you this was built by
the Adena remodeled and used by the
Hopewell built by the jedes remodeled and used by the Nephites and why is that
because it's set on a 13-month calendar 13-month calendar comes out of the Middle East what what's what is set on
the 13-month calendar that's how they set all their dates they festivals okay
that's standard standard calendar for the Middle East a 13 monther sure that's what's in our Hopewell Earthworks and
Adena Earth Works the calendar yeah and you look at you look at the uh the dates of you know probably aarah or uh
zedekiah's uh uh Reign at 597 and then you look at the birth of Christ coming in around probably 4ish B see more in
there you've got to have a lunar calendar for that to make sense to lock in 600 years that's right between
between zedekiah and the birth of Christ um but okay so going back to the
Adena here so do we have what kind of artifacts do we have that would be Adena
artifacts in these areas because I would imagine if you've got the H well coming in using these areas up and remodeling
them you're obviously going to have a bunch of Hopewell artifacts do we have the Adena artifacts as well there are
there are very few now when it comes to Stone and and and potty pottery shards
we have that for the Adena um not a lot of other stuff left over because first
of all we know for a fact we will open up a hell burial ground burial Mount
okay and in there we'll find Stone artifacts that were made by Adena so
basically if just think about it you if you come here and you go to these places that have been destroyed and you find a
lovely Stone Axe are you just going to walk past no you're going to pick it up
and you're going to use it and we find Adena stuff being used by the hope well
people because the axes are different you can tell Adena axe from Hope well ax that's not a problem okay so that's what
you find now what's even worse than that you know and I I don't have an answer for this but for some reason early on
the Smithsonian really went out and gathered up all the large skeletons they
could possibly find we have I mean we have two 300 records just in journals
and newspapers alone where a guy would dig up a guy a seven foot eight footer he'd take him downtown in his village
they' put him in the local drugstore so everybody could see him in town I mean know this these monsters but we have
hardly any bones left at all I got one skull it's in terot Indiana and it's
owned by a dentist and he's got the best teeth I've ever seen because he's taken care of guy's teeth but and it's big
it's big but uh the Adena guys they're running real strong 68 foot real strong
hope well our size our size C once in a while you'll find a big guy once in a
while but basically they're pretty much our size and the jaredites are supposed to be basically is you would say Giants
that is correct that You' got the large spectacles you've got the large breast plates it's you know for that Joseph
Smith has you have something that this is extremely important and I wish I could show it to you the Adena for some
reason now they they built the biggest Mounds they built the biggest ones okay and uh let's just say a rigger guy or
one- of-the Mill guy they would cover him with Earth but then they' make a a stone pile over it's called a Karen c a
i RN a Karen now that's typical of Dena however they did a lot of things very
strange in that they would take 12 men they would dig a circle
pit and they put a large Stone in the center of the pit think think of a a
wheel with spokes and they laid these guys out 12 guys like the spokes of a
wheel now this has all been confirmed as Adena burials I mean from Wisconsin all
the way to West Virginia down to Florida it's all Adena and even in Illinois and that's what's so cool about this this
has all been declared jedite Adena burials now Along Comes Joseph
Smith I'm going to say not too long before he was unfortunately I'm going to say the
word murdered okay that's how I look at it anyway his farm outside of navoo to
the east was next to a guy name of Jacob bomb Jacob bomb on his farm like anybody
else he's just staking out stuff for cows staking out area for his Hogs well were his Hogs ended up he did not know
that but there was a it was a Adena burial ground and one day he noticed
Hogs were kicking up some very unusual bones and he picked up one he said he had a huge large skull and he himself said
these guys were seven and eight Footers they were big big bones he showed it to his family family was scared and then
the rumor got out around town now Joseph's Farm was beyond bombs but he
had to pass by bomb's Farm to get to his farm that was east of town okay so Joseph hearing this in town he rides out
to Jacob's Place now his daughter Elizabeth records all this in her journal and it's in the church archives
the church historians got this it's in his archives Joseph comes out to check out
the story of the large bones and he looks at it and Jacob now has removed
the Hogs and he's got this whole thing dug up and you can see all these guys laid out like the spokes of a
wheel Joseph said those guys are jaredites cover them
up so here we have where's where's the reference to that it's in the church
archive I have it I'll be glad to send it to you and I'll even send you a picture of the guys in the wheel I mean I've got drawings from other
archaological sites and I show this a lot of my talks but Joseph Smith is identifying that those burials as as
chared yeah that's really important I just had this like I've only had this for about two years matter of fact we
are at the actual site working to get permission to excavate that's happening right now so we're just uh I got a busy
summer coming up busy summer tonight I just want to add one thing to that story about the people so you know they're
incredible people uh this do his daughter Elizabeth she will marry a guy by the
name of Willard Bean the fighting preacher now if anybody knows her church
history they know who Willard Bean is so I just want to show you these are high quality Faith promoted people I mean
they are in the gospel thick their their testimony their Diaries I would take as
absolute you know without any question any question at all but the whole the whole diary matter of fact reason I got
to it descendants of Elizabeth bomb um it's probably two and a half almost
three years ago was in December I get a call and this guy tells me about this entrance in in the diary for Elizabeth
bomb about these big guys uh down by navoo and and they just sent me a transcribed paper to read and then I
went and tracked it down and it's in the church archives it's there so very credible very credible very interesting
now let me go back to the Mounds real quick what why Mounds I mean why build a big
Mound what what is its purpose what does it do why and why would you build how
many are there how many Mounds are there in North America oh I'd say over 10,000 so so what's the point of of these
Mounds what do they do I mean for us I mean we're thinking well you know we want a structure we want to build a
structure of some sort what are these Earthworks well here's here's what I've
kind of figured out with your friend and my friend Bruce um now most of the
mountains are normal burials but we get these ones that are 20 30 Footers and then of course the Adena come along at
70 and 60 foot you know well the Adena for example they would build an altar
ground level and they do whatever they do we don't know what they did and then they would cover that over and then
above the altar they would then on the second layer of Earth and they put the first guy in and they usually build a
log chamber rectangle he goes in there and then that goes up and then get gets capped and then next one or two guys
even sometimes three if they're important guys they'll go up in the next layer kind of like a cake you know
you're you're layering up to you finally get to the top now an exception to that some of them
only have one burial but then we find at the top of those the top of that mound
was really used as an observation deck we find fire pit now we also know a
thing called line of sight okay we've got places where two and a half three
miles you can go from one top of Adena Mountain to the next one and then to another one and another one so they
could pass messages you know uh Micah by day and Fire by night and we know this
it works because it I give I'll give you the example that we have completely documented um when Julius Caesar failed
the first time to get into England when he when he he they charged into you know break into England the Roman army and
they got repelled within 24 hours that news was all the way back into Rome
because they had towers that they built that they'd pass along back and forth like we would do a telegraph that's what
they did so they did it here too and it's on top of the Adam Mounds the big ones and the Hopewell used them
thereafter because we find Hope material on top of some of the de now inside we'll usually find one guy and then
historically after the Dina are gone and the hope are gone we get your post book of morning people and they'll come along
and they'll say well we got we want to BR a loved one and you know they respected all these mountains they didn't mess with them however they would
go up easy digging I guess and in the side of one of these things they dig a a hole and stick their loved one in there
and then cover it over and uh that's called an intrusive burial we find a lot of intrusive burials in in the big guys
that are all post Booka Mormon and um it's just the way it was that's the way it developed now Bruce and I we came to
this inclusion and and I I really feel this is solid when you talk about creation and the Earth is all water and
the Native Americans talk about the primordial Mound the first Earth that rose up out of the water and they use a
turtle as a symbol what's a turtle look like it's a mound the back of a
turtle we feel there's a connection there religiously spiritually to
remember creation the mound the Mound the primordial Earth to be like Creator
and that's kind of where we're at with that and other than that I really can't tell you but that's that's our best shot
okay so the Mounds are primarily burial grounds for the Adena did the hope will
come in and use those also for burial did they add on top of that because you talk about them remodeling a little bit
what what does that mean no the when they remodel they remodeled the the actual Earthworks themselves to reuse
all of the settings that were set up for the ox and soul SST and all that kind of thing for the calendars but the burial mounts hope well never touch the Adena
barrial mounts forbidden not not happen that will come after postbook Mormon intrusive burials the hell have their
own burial mounts and very few of Hell burial mountains are next to Adena cemeteries it happens a little bit but
not too often not too one obvious U exception to that in Murad Ohio you'll
find a huge one of the one of the first hope well Earthworks looked at because people on the on the East Coast you know
just coming in to the Ohio country in West Virginia and you'll see this in the edge of Ohio you'll see Marietta
beautiful rectangle beautiful Circle got a Temple mount in there just like they talk about in the book in the in the Old
Testament with the ramps and everything no staircase against against the book of Mor no no against Mosaic law and then
right outside of there is a huge 70 foot Adena Mound that has never been touched and the Pioneers buried their dead our
our our a our 1700 people 1800 people they' made a cemetery around this huge
Adena Mound and it's inside a h well structure so it's very very it breaks all the rules it breaks all the rules
but it's there you can go see it it's a beauty they even got a ditch is still there all the way around it and they've
got a stase going up the top so you can go up the top and sit up on a bench there and you know look at the area it's
kind of neat kind of neat okay so now what artifacts what other artifacts
have been found in these mouths my understanding is that there are a very high number of tablets that have been
found oh yeah in in these mounds and they have writings on them is that right
that is correct that is correct uh this month of uh my magazine called land of
promise I put a section there out of Alabama um how they've got brass plates that were saw and witnessed by the
settlers in the 17 1800s and the Native Americans still have them today of course they won't let any white guys see
them but they you that they do have those brass plates you know what brass plates are just it doesn't mean to be a
bronze probably something whatever but they've got them um we've had a lot of
small stones with writing and and all the writing by the way has all been identified as as Proto Hebrew paleo
Hebrew or straight Hebrew I mean it's just and of course that's all been declared fake nobody here before
Columbus that's what we're taught so therefore they're always saying it has been someone put that into do a hoax and
I got to tell you I can show you 13 14 solid cases in North America for Hebrew
writing you go south of the real grand maybe one no fakes down there all
the fakes are up here so you know it's kind of something's weird something something's wrong and yet Native
Americans Kar we had uh Scott Walter a big geologist out of Minneapolis Minnesota he did a thing called a
spectrograph on a stone and he could show that the patina on the surface of
the stone was the same patina that went down into the grooves that cut the letters I mean you can't fake that and
what made it even better when it was found the guys that were doing the digging they actually hit the stone their shovel and put two scratch marks
on it so that be that became a guide see for a time thing and they could see that the difference there was tremendous in
the scrapes versus what was on the stone with matching Adena so the hope that's
on the the bat Creekstone by the way that thing is absolutely legitimate uh it's right around 100 to 200 ad came out
of a Hopewell Mound that's on Cherokee property in East
Tennessee so 13 to 14 cases of Proto
Hebrew uh in North America found by
non-lds archaeologists excavation and and just regular people it's both both
way both ways and regular people okay um but they're all declared
fakes yeah yeah that's that's what happens it's a shame and that's why WR stone tablets stone stone we do have
some metal um like I said the ones in in Alabama now the state of Michigan is is the biggest one this one the
archaeologists hate Michigan because we have minimum of 10,000 possibly 30,000
artifacts slate clay and copper covered with writing coming out of the ground in
the state of Michigan first ones were found in 1812 starting at the mouth of the St Lawrence
and you work your way down to St Lawrence when you hit the main state of Michigan Michigan was covered 21
counties 21 counties artifacts have been brought out of how can you pull a hoax
in 21 counties and some of them they weren't always created there was actual bones that came out so I mean someone
had to be killed to make the hoax you see what I'm saying I mean it's it's a huge it's it's a it's a crime now what's
really interesting Henry at merch in the 18 in
1970s smart G worked for the government during World War II she was a code
breaker sharp she looked at the Michigan tablet because she was paid by a judge by the
name of black out of Chicago he had he had a collection of plates he says he said Henrietta I know you're schooled I want
you spend some time pay your time look at these things tell me if they're real or fake I want to know and so Henrietta
dove into it she actually wrote a book on the Michigan tablets which I republished by the way in my bookstore
and uh in there she says these things are legitimate I'm making a long story short but what's really interesting she
said the language on the Michigan plates is Coptic based out of Egypt the cops
Coptic okay now we know who they are and we know their timeline and it's old and it's good it also would go through The
Book of Mormon timeline now here's the real punch and this just happened this topic is based off of Greek
November November 14th right before Thanksgiving I'm in my office right here
phone rings I pick it up a guy introduces himself it's Brian tinin of
The Serpent Mound reservation up in Toronto California H Canada he says
Wayne he says I want to help you I said well wonderful what what you
want to do he says you're on the right track he said we we know our
language here in Toronto and we are jbba and we know we are House of Israel and
our language is Coptic based he said I can read some of the Michigan tablets
now I got to tell you I've been doing this since 1988 I bought passed out when he told me this I mean this is like this
is this is Christmas okay for me this is Christmas and I was very excited so
right now I'm in touch with him he's the chief epigrapher for the jban nation the guy sherp his attack he translates a
jiboa treaties that the Vatican had brought over from the Jesuits in the 1600s he translates for the Vatican he
transfers translates for the Canadian government because they got treaty problems up there with the natives on you know where the land was how it was
bought and misused and all that kind of thing so I mean he's really into the mix
and right now he's putting a book together on all this his language and how it works together and eventually
I'll get an article from him on the cops and we'll put it in land of promise and that's what I'm waiting for so it's it's
just this is really a big deal this is really a big deal so he's claiming Origins from Israel yes totally from a
an an a a an oral tradition that's been passed down I'm supposing and I don't
know if it's just oral he he may have more than that because they will tell you and this is another shocker he said
we even know what tribe we belong which are the 12 tribes so right away what am I thinking I'm thinking you know Ephraim
Manasseh Judah right Zebulon he said we're from the tribe of
Zebulon I mean it's just like okay yeah what am I going to say this is a Native American and they're telling me they've
had their DNA checked and they are x2a they've got the DNA that comes right out
of Israel and and they're cooked up to the the Drews population which is solid left over from from the way back I mean
they're solid and uh I mean this just this just came on my magazine in U let's see December so it's out there and and
Brian wants to go public he said he has the blessings of the elders it's time to start telling their story so that's
going on right now it's happening it's going to be unfolding through the pages of of My Magazine I me I'm just I really feel blessed just to have him give me a
call out of the blue I've never met him I've never met him yeah interesting so let me back up to the tablets again the
Michigan ta you said there were thousands of these tablets with writing on them what what
are what what kind of writing is it what is it what what language is it okay well it it's mixed you'll see k for which is
it was in used 3000 to 1000 BC and then it kind of became a how would you say it a a club language a society language
secret society K form kind of went underground but it was still spoken people can read it and then uh you'll
see um a little bit of a Syrian you'll see a script that we don't know what it is and then uh you'll see a little bit
of a baleo Hebrew right on the tablets so but it's mixed and because it's mixed
the academics have cast it off they didn't want to talk about it they just
thumbs down okay what what what is it that finally ends the civilization of
the Adena well I mean from archaeological records they can't tell so what they
look what they figure is that the Adena for some reason became Blended in with
well that's how they look at it and yet some AR just look for a very abruptness
because uh the artifacts didn't change quick enough so the blending looks good
but yet maybe Something's Happened they don't know what but uh it's it's a it's
a big question so we're I'm thinking Book of Mormon here I think we're talking about
uh 600 BC late well well it would be late 2nd Century BC wouldn't it it
would be uh because you've got Corey Anton that's that's uh going to meet up
with uh the muik kites right right uh
and I guess I don't know I'm trying to remember what that time frame mosiah I call him Grandpa mosiah comes from Nephi
up to zarahemla that's in the second century BC well the book Mor does not
say where he goes it doesn't seem say where they found him it's just that it says when the mikit arrived they found
him okay and then he he receives the burial by them so that could easily be
that 600 BC date okay now some have tried to push it into the date you're talking about because mosiah translates
his Stone yes at that time in zerah him well maybe he was there no he wasn't
there that would shove off the whole book Mor timeline he was there for nine moons and with them and that that could
have been at any point that's right nine moons um yeah so now let me tell you what Dr nibble Sayes and you can get the
book by Hugh nibble um it's called Uh
see Lehigh in the desert and gosh I'm remember this and and there's a second
title about the JY I can't kick it out but Lehi in the desert uh it's in all used bookstores you can pick it up for
eight bucks yeah I've got it okay if you will read that tonight or today look it
up H will make the case that ad zarahemla there's three guys that show
up during after the jits are over it caused a lot of trouble and based on
their name structure he says these guys are jedit that all the jaredites didn't die
now I have to agree with that because we know uh in New Brunswick we've got
jedite we have an Adena an Adena uh Village up there that's 400
ad holy mackerel that's not 600 BC is it and then we've got a
275 BC in Ohio
um huge fortification big stones and for some
reason the the hope well never squatted on it they left it alone and so when you
go up there and the archaeolog will tell you there are no hopeful artifacts here but these guys were here at 275 BC but
it's all jedite now let's let's try and let be practical to think that the
jaredites they've been here for 1700 years now I understand the Gathering for the big fight I'm all for that I don't
have a problem with that but to think that the jaredites were 100% gathered in after been here for 1700 years and they
all died at Cur at 600 BC I don't think so I think jaredites could be they could
be in Mexico it could be some up in Canada they would have gone everywhere in 1700 years they would not have just
hung around Lake Erie Lake Ontario for 1700 years I don't I got a problem with
that they would have expanded little colonies look call Little colonies and then we got Hugh Hugh comes along and
says hey guess what we got jaredites in in zerla with the muik kites
and they're causing trouble read the read it it's excellent read even to your viewers excellent read okay
so what now moving on to the hope well here what you you're matching them at
550 BC to about 400 ad that is correct which is right in line with with the Nephites and that's an archaeological
date by non-lds academics okay so you you're hope well are the Nephites in your
opinion absolutely okay hope well are the Nephites where do they come from
where how do we do we know anything about their Origins where do they come from um where they landed is that what you're
asking where do they land and do they say where they came from yeah oh that's a fun one okay uh here's the deal it was
a little bit long okay the boys in South America they got that piece of paper
Joseph writes down doctrine of Covenant I believe it was number seven and then a year later he gets a scribed Frederick G
Williams Williams has his scribe for some reason paper must have been scarce because on the back side of this
Revelation on the backside Frederick G rman writes down they landed at 300
degrees south latitude 30 this is in South America no
but but but 30 degrees right 30 degrees I'm sorry 300 thank you for correcting me 30 degrees so this this was accepted
right way but because the the Brethren all one Hill guys but they're looking at all the whole Western Hemisphere okay as
book of Morman lands they're Western Hemisphere guys but one kamur pal mea one kamur so all right that that's very
important for me I the whole correct of that argument is one point so then later on it didn't
take too long and the scholars realized that this wasn't Joseph's handwriting Frederick did it and there's no backbone
at all about that he made this all up now here's the here's the thing I
believe that Frederick G Williams because he took that date at or that location at 30 degrees he actually heard
Joseph say 30 degrees didn't say North didn't say South now here's the here's
the real Hammer where does the Hopewell begin they begin north of Florida in
North Florida at the 30 degree north latitude line that's where they
begin I mean like coincidence I think there's a connection here something's
happening and that's where the hope will grow out of now in the meantime the guys in Florida came across the Atlantic they
won't see the muik kites for 400 years so the muik kites come in the St Lawrence which all the natives up there
we tell you we all came in the St Lawrence where's the where's the St Lawrence well it's north of Maine St
Lawrence Seaway oh way up North yeah okay muik kites came into the land North Lehi came into the land South and they
don't see each other for 400 years now for me that was a problem for a while because the muite and the hopwell both
had copper right away and I knew about the copper mines up in Upper Peninsula Michigan I thought my gosh if the knightes are going up there get their
copper they would have seen these guys much earlier but then I found out Tennessee
East Tennessee Georgia got ancient copper mines all over no worries no worries and the gold is
there and the silver is there because it said when Nephi leaves the Florida area and travels northward to get away from
Layman Lemo he adorns his temple with copper and silver and gold etc etc
should land of Nephi it's all there big mines in Georgia even today so I believe that whole thing of 30 degrees is not
it's not a coinci I think it's a real deal Joseph he could have just said 30 degrees north and it would been over but
the boys had to stretch it because they were Western Hemisphere guys so if he says 30 degrees latitude well it's
got to be down south because in the land Southward well the land south or was the south of the US North Us muik kites
South US Lehi back and forth so the earliest Hopewell are in Florida that is
correct that is correct do they but they migrate out of there they head up north because you're talking about Michigan
Ohio Iowa that's the only way they can go and uh what we find then you see the
next really big hit which is a real problem for a lot of people when they go up to East Tennessee where I believe
they settled I believe that's going to become the land of Nephi you know in that general area East Tennessee
Okay 34 35 36 Tennessee Valley Authority
come into Tennessee because they're having flooding Farms are all getting flooded and they decide they're going to
do some dams and control the Tennessee River now that whole valer was really
rich in burial mounds and fortifications I mean rich and because it was going to
be covered up with water they gave the archaeologist twoyear
window dig where you want to dig because this is all going to underwater and they did it was like kids in the candy store
it's called the Norris Dam and you can find this online there's a couple guy did some videos on it but I did the the
study on it myself but the noris dam project at the noris dam area had a huge
Mound top ler was Mississippian the second later was early Mississippian which is 900 to 1100 ad and then they
found another Mound at the bottom Hopewell and they dated it 550 to 600 BC
now remember carbon dating is always 50 60 100 years either direction but they dated 550 BC okay and what happened
there they found a building large posted building they could still have the post
they were still there would this is this is in East Tennessee no but it's it's wood wood yes wood is still there rotted
just just post we call Post molds they still existed you could outline the whole building and the altar in there
which would have been an altar natural stones again very very important I don't know if we got time to get there but the point is somehow this information got
back to London England and a guy named Randle Harris an archaeologist an
egyptologist he gets on the bandwagon he says this thing looks like an Egyptian temple the way it's built and he goes on
and talks about you know all these things well the guys in America they couldn't shut him up get him out of here
I mean this is you know you're you're hurting our Paradigm you know well the point is what if he was
right if that guy was right they could have very possibly uncovered the first
temple built by Nephi in East Tennessee I mean it's it's in East Tennessee the
Norris Dam project it's under about 50 80 ft of water today I don't know how deep the dam is but it's buried today
it's underwater now we've got photographs of it I show them in my magazine I show them in my lectures uh
you can see the the building the structure it's all there yeah and now and then Harris goes on to explain uh
the rivers around Tennessee all have Egyptian names linguistic the way he breaks out as an epigrapher and then in
the key one he says Tennessee is an Egyptian word tenna means land of Essie
means Isis land of Isis so he just went off I mean just well
anyway there you go interesting what other artifacts have been found there from the hope will that might
corroborate your your claim of of the hope will being the ne fites well I mean it's the dating the
dating is the big thing um and they they've got we got swords if I could go to private collections I could show you
guys a Hundred Swords as it is I've only got photos of about maybe five or six of them and they're big and and we have uh
you know the the curved ones too not not just the straight ones we have them both uh talked about in in the book of Jacob
what is the dating on those swords well you can't date the metal but they come out of Hope well
Mounds okay they come out of Hope well Mounds uh but the metal can't be now what they can look at though and tell
you that the copper hardened copper that they're made out of all comes from upper Michigan primarily that they can tell
you and uh now iron when you read the books on the mound builders one that
were probation like 1790 to 1890 that 100e span they'll tell you they
find a handle a hilt and what looked like a Scabbard and
they'll find a line of rust all the way down the guy's leg it was an iron sword
it's gone Midwest I mean Iron goes it doesn't stick around it it's gone but you'll see that in their early writings
they had iron um I have not seen one iron sword that has survive from that
timeline but we have it in the early archaeological writings of the mountain builders in those books which I make up
I I reprint them when I get my hands on them so that people can read it and do their own study the stuff is in there but you got to read it you got to dig it
out you know no one's going to spoon feed you you know so especially if there's a different narrative that's
that's in place that's right uh so you've got Grandpa mosiah leaves the
land of Nephi you're saying possibly Eastern Tennessee um he goes to zerah Hemley
finds the muik kites this becomes the primary capital city of the Nephites for
the next 500 plus years right what are would there be any remnants
from this city this large city do we have a place or do you have a hypothesis
on this are there artifacts or buildings or anything else that would be a part of
of the city of zerla let me I've been telling I'll tell you what I've been doing since 2010 in 2010 I stood in front of the
navu temple doctrine of covenants 125 and 3 Joseph has commanded to build
another city across from navu and call it
zerla I took that literally and I went over there and I search the farmland and I believe I have
put this way I have a Hopewell site in the middle of that site that's has
BMS and walls of Earth around three sides of it the fourth side is gone okay
we have found I found a rectangular structure in the sand I mean it's
basically sandy soil but there there's good soil too I had a guy named Charlie Christenson come out do resistivity he
validated my find and then I took a lot of criticism for I don't know 10 15 years till I got Dr Kevin price a
scientist with lidar who works on Plants
um when plants like for Farmers plants that grow across your field the farmer wants to see how fertile his field is
well if it's really fertile or wherever it's at the plants will all have the same color of spectrometry when they
shoot down from the lar now if there's variances then the you'll see spots in the ground or maybe a whole half your
field then you'll know where you got to put the fertilizer that's what they do well guess what Dr Price shot what I
believe is the actual Temple site for zarahemla and we have a a red rectangle
there because it's on Sand stuff around it is all colored because the and it's the same plants okay same plants but
they don't have the the nutrients the same that's why it leaves a an impression a design something you can
see a scale and it's there and it's proven scientifically see before that
everybody was giving me a hard time calling maze sandbox see and I didn't care that's okay um I got a
hope well site now I have no Pottery shards to date with I'm looking for those however we again through liar we
could pick up fire pits now we went after about probably a dozen of them and
all of them but one have turned out to be Mississippian but the deepest one we hit was book Morman timeline what it was
we hit the fire pit dated and there was clamshells the fire pit and the clam
shells all dated to 235 BC so what's really kind of cool is that the MU kites
are having a clam bake that's my point you see because nees I mean the boys
arrived yet they're not there yet so it was a mule kite we had a mu kite fireplace 235 BC and we got the data now
it's very expensive to do that I love to go back and do a whole bunch more maybe I can in the future right now I can't do
it can't do it but that's how you find this stuff the fireplaces will help you when you you got to go deep got to go
deep okay okay um well Wayne really appreciate your time on this this is
really fascinating this is opening up new doors for me because I I I I've spoken to another PE a number of people
that uh have done research on the Heartland but not specifically the archaeological work on the Adena and the
Hopewell right and uh this is It's fascinating it's interesting now I want to end with this okay um there is a
Great Divide between the Heartland and the Mesoamerican models right there are
I as I see it right I've got there are evidences for both there are evidences against both there is no proof I would
say that one side or the other is absolutely correct for me I go to the
scriptures and I lean on the scriptures and that makes me lean more toward a Heartland model
um why is there such a divide on this why is this not you you have basically
let's just call it mainstream Academia mainstream LDS Academia that is going to
go toward the Mesoamerican side and and then you've got other researchers like
yourself that that lean toward a Heartland model what why has this
happened well what drives me is that
there are several things that Joseph Smith did like I mentioned the letter but that's not the only one and I just
got I stay with Joseph I follow Joseph and to me Joseph is a one hill guy I
mean I don't know how else I can say it that's where we are we're one hillers
you see when I when I was before I woke up in 1989 everything was two Hills it was
found the plates in New York but all the battles took place somewhere in Mexico and then then I make F I make fun of
that cuz they've got four Hills picked down there they don't know which Hill so we have this little jingle one kamora
two kamora three kamor four how many more I mean you know come on guys pick one show me the artifacts in Mexico and
they can't do it they can't do it um now I can show you papers from Palmyra New
York before the bamor was written covers around Hill Kamura and 200 plus
fortifications around kamur defending it all dated to 2 38
D that's our Nephi boys rushing in to protect the hill the papers talk about all these
Farmers finding bone matter they're finding ax hats and points by the bucket
I mean it's in all the papers and yet we're told there's no artifacts in New York that's just not true it's not true
I had a guy contact me and I don't know if he's still alive he was really old um he lives up by be Lake
right after the Korean War that's when they put in the um the first lights in the to make the hill kamur pageant in
pal at Palmyra and he was one of the first guys that were digging the pits to put the lights in he said Wayne when we
dug the pits at the base of the Hill looking up to the top we saw and pulled out buckets of
arrowheads all those pales went into the visitor center and he said a few weeks
later he inquired about he want he brought want to a friend and they got shipped back to Salt Lake I okay but my
point is this is a Battleground they should have a board up there showing what they found on this
battlefield and that that's my my opinion it's not just the the spiritual thing of course is everything but the
point is there's that physical contact there's that physical window and the church won't let it
happen it's a problem for me okay and it's too bad now Kimble in his book
about his grandfather he said when he played there he said that there was a trench went all the way around Hil Kamura and he played
in the trench and that's typical hope well construction trench ditch up goes
the BM it's all been PL flat all been plot flat so I don't know what I can tell you I follow Joseph if you read
John Sorenson's very first book and I can't tell you I think it came out in the 70s or early 80s it's it's his main
number one book on Heartland and it's the first chapter
I think it's paragraph four paragraph five I don't have one anymore he will tell you he'll get he
what he does he dismisses Joseph immediately from the archaeological record he said Joseph had no
Revelation he had nothing to show it was merely his best opinion that had
happened in North America and I got to tell you that's just so bad we got places where Joseph I had a revelation
that here's what happened blah blah blah I mean that's so wrong so Joseph gone and the rest of his book is all Central
America I just man that's that that should have never happened and also if
you look in 1879 to 1919 The Book of Mormon are you a life
member what are you been in the church all your life yes okay your grandparents and your great-grandparents would have
had the 1879 Book of Mormon in here it tells you Palmyra in the footnotes it
tells you that's the hill kamur that was removed when they republished The Book
of Mormon in 1920 why would you take that out and guess who did this the guys
that approved this six of them knew Joseph face to face they broke bread
with them they cried with him they were happy with him I mean they knew Joseph the 1879 version what's that the the
ones that did put in the uh the Palmyra reference in the 1879 version 1879 it
lasts to 1919 1920 and there's there's more than just
that there's a whole bunch and they're in I have republished the 1879 Edition
I've got it on my website and man it's going like hot cakes okay awesome stuff
awesome stuff so great anyway thanks so much for your time fascinating great
insights uh we're going to follow up and and maybe get you back and and and go a little bit deeper down the come to my
conference come to my conference we'll be there why don't you talk about that when is it 21 22 of June Spanish Fork at
the Mountain Metal High School come uh I'll be there we'll put a
link in the uh a link in the description thank you appreciate it all right Wayne thanks so much appreciate it yeah
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