Butler the author of plain and precious things Dave welcome to the show Greg thanks for having me I very excited
about this uh well it's been now a few months we we sat down and little Mexican restaurant and had I don't know a two or
three or four- hour lunch and uh and talked about these things this stuff is just like it's enriching it is uh it's
like a feast when you go through this so I'm very excited about this I want to cover primarily the setting of The Book
of Mormon uh um as you call them the Visionary man we'll get into that I want to go into if we get to all of this the
Ser Isaiah 3-6 and then we'll go into The Sermon on the Mount but let's start off with the environment in Jerusalem at
the time of Lehi you know a lot of people don't really consider this it's
they just kind of go into the Book of Mormon and and start from there and but yet what's happening there is Nephi and
Lehi are reacting to what is happening in Jerusalem which is a complete revolution
of the Theology and theocracy there in Jerusalem can you
kind of just at a higher level start talking about what is happening in Jerusalem at the time of
Lehi yeah so uh this is a great question Greg um I've been thinking over the last
couple days looking forward to this conversation and trying to think about different ways to approach the subject
um uh uh than maybe we have before and and one of the uh ideas that occurred to
me was there's a series of questions that uh that we don't ask about the Book
of Mormon that actually it's a little bit surprising that we don't ask now and I think they all uh I think they all I'm
gonna get I'm I'm I'm gonna answer your question it's going to feel like a long answer but I'm gonna get you're good okay so um in in writing I wrote back 12
years ago now uh two books on the on the Book of Mormon and and sort of what I
think uh what seems to me to be an important key for understanding again is very much on the on the question you're
asking me and um the I wrote I wrote then that for me one of the uh keys that
kind of opened the door to thinking about the Book of Mormon this way was the work of Margaret Barker now Margaret
is a Methodist scholar and and she's she's a bomb thrower in all the best ways and uh and and her work in an
important way all seeks to answer one question which is uh what is the mental
world of the people who accept Jesus when he shows up right if we if we look
at the gospels and say let's try and extract a secular history out of this well Along Comes this fellow Jesus and
and we know who he is there is his mother there are his brothers we know their names they're all real people
right they grew up Among Us and yet somehow large numbers of people from
very early on are willing to say about this guy Jesus is Lord meaning Jesus is
Yahweh this fellow right this son of a techtone which is not a fine arts Carpenter it's like a it's a guy who
knocks up drywall and Timbers okay this guy who's the son of a
Joseph he's our national he's our God right what must those people what mental
Furniture must they have had to answer to be able to do that she's written in a
dozen books maybe um and uh for me the question is oh that's interesting so
what must the mental world of Nephi be for him to write the things that he
does right we we know uh as a parenthetical it's easy to think and
talk about the Book of Mormon as if it's something like the transcript of a CCV camera obviously it's not right the
small plates of Nephi are a the a work of art they're a work of maybe even
poetry but but they're a work of literature written by Nephi and by his
successors right a and uh and what what must they have you know uh what are they
thinking that makes all this make sense and I think um an important uh in Broad
pictures okay broad broad Strokes um during lehi's
lifetime we had on the throne of the kingdom of Judah the second of the
famous uh reformer Kings uh of the Kingdom okay
Josiah and uh Hezekiah had preceded him by about a century Hezekiah is kind of
second half of the 8th Century meaning 700ish 720 something I forget the exact
dates BC uh and and Josiah is 100 years later so uh before Nephi's born or when
he's very very young uh we have the reign of hez of Josiah who um who the
Old Testament describes as a reformer meaning the I should I should be more
more clear uh the historical books of the Old Testament so uh Second Kings okay and
Chronicles following Second Kings describes uh Josiah as a reformer
meaning it says about him oh we had gone astray we were we were apostate uh and
Josiah came and and got us back on track now um there's a lot of
interesting uh things to say and I I am I'm a writer right I'm a novelist
um I don't teach for a living so uh but there's there's a meaning you're not
going to find me in the faculty of a the Divinity School or anything right go don't go look for me in the BYU religion
CES program yeah I I am not a CES instructor that's okay yeah uh I am not
the Dave Butler who has a Mormon spirituality blog so um so I'm gonna give a high level
summary right so uh one it seems
like the reforms of Josiah are connected ideologically to the book of
Deuteronomy meaning he seems to be the enforcing arm that goes around and puts
the ideas of Deuteronomy into uh into effect and and maybe right com I'm
reading a commentary in the book of Jim Robert's commentary in the book of Isaiah right now and uh and he He
suggests that actually maybe those ideas came from the northern kingdom and they came as early as the time of Hezekiah
and the same ideas were what was the same sort of political religious movement was driving Hezekiah Century
earlier okay I think that's right I've studied that quite a bit it's they came from it looks to me like they came from
the north and it may have been at the time you know 721 BC maybe they got
exiled they came down yeah uh at that time but there's there's strong evidence
they are yeah yeah and and and there's a lot of ideological similarity between
kind of Hezekiah Josiah book of Deuteronomy one one thing it wants to do is it wants to centralize everything in
Jerusalem another thing it is it wants to do is it wants to depersonalize God right so even though
the book of Exodus Exodus 24 describes the Elders of Israel going up onto a mountain this this is a subject if we're
talk long enough today we may come back to this but it's an Ascent through three-part space where the Elders of
Israel Moses and Joshua ascend from part one foot of the mountain to part two where they have a feast with the Lord
and and he's clearly human right he has feet okay and and there's a table and
they have a feast with him and then by the way only Moses and Joshua Ascend to the third part which is they ascend
through a cloud to the top of the mountain um now by the way this sort of gets us down the the road we want to get
to ultimately an Ascent through three-part space is a description of an Ascent through Temple space okay which
uh I'm a little ahead of us uh is what we have in The Sermon on the Mount it is what we have in first Nephi 8 it even
connects what we have in Jacob 5 um so so we have this reform okay oh
so sorry Exodus says you you know the Elders of Israel saw God Deuter uter
onomy says you did not you did flat says denies it you did not see God people you
have to read all the scriptures to appreciate that um the scriptures
contain multiple voices disagreeing with each other right sometimes on banal
stuff like which apostle ran the foot race to the Garden well it depends on which gospel you read uh sometimes on
sort of moral stuff like hey do Christians need to be circumcised and there's a fight between James and Paul
and that's in the New Testament and Paul's a jerk about it Paul says in Galatians he hopes that James and his
men accidentally castrate themselves while they're doing the whole circumcision thing the the the Liars
right so um but but but predating all of that we have this massive conflict
apparently between the re reformers uh who are in fact introducing
a new religion before the disputes between Paul and James uh before the
question of which apostle made it to the tomb we have this this colossal fight
between um what appears if you read uh this is a fundamental idea in modern
scholarship about the Bible okay that there were uh a that there are multiple
voices speaking different ideologies different beliefs recorded in the Bible
um but also be that the last one or one of the last ones the one that kind of edited everything together and then kind
of got in the last word was was the Deuteronomy people and they're not the original religion of
Israel as you say maybe they came down from the north they might even have been
uh seen as foreigners and and uh and so they they they rewrite the history you
didn't get you didn't see Moses they changed the way priesthood is exercised you can't do your local sacrifices
anymore you got to come into Jerusalem right they uh they they subtly rewrite
the the they murder thousands of priests that are out in the high places yes and
try and cleanse to cleanse the land and and the uh the the religion that's
exactly right so and if you go read this is what I describe Josiah as being sort of an enforcer he's the strongman okay
you go read Second Kings uh what is it 2122 I find it very hard to like him
because although the book says he is you know heroic and Noble in the greatest he's killing people is what he's doing
um and and the King James translators don't help there are some real dishonesty this William dver um who was
uh actually I'm not sure he's still alive if he's alive he's quite elderly now he's he's retired biblical
archaeologist and um he wrote uh he writes books with provocative titles
like did God have a wife um which is a great book uh but he he calls this uh a
historical slander okay the King James translation when when you go through uh
First Kings and I'm not looking at it but 21 and22 I think is my recollection
uh Josiah is described as uh punishing going after the
sodomites okay the problem is that the underlying Hebrew text has nothing in it
about sodomites at all what it says is the the kesim the holy ones and by the
way the same translation uh the King James translation when Yahweh appears with his
kesim in what is it Deuteronomy 32 uh at the end of book of Deuteronomy
it translates kashim as the Saints but here where Josiah who you know the
Protestant translators the King James probably identify with right he's going to come clean out the abuses where
Josiah is smashing their houses and driving them out the King James translators decide well what are holy
ones well probably sacred male prostitutes but as William dver says
there's actually no reason to think that it's slander right so there are somebody
called The Holy ones which in other context is Saints or Angels maybe it's
priests Josiah is driving them out he's destroying somebody called the
Karim now uh there are are uh two two words uh for priest in uh Old Testament
Hebrew okay this is the the kohanim the Cohen okay uh actually there's multiple
words kohanim is one uh Karim is another now we don't know who the Karim were
okay um but but just by by way of like
possibilities uh in the syak Old Testament so syak is a lang anguage
related to Hebrew uh it got a very early translation of the Bible so when
Scholars are looking at Hebrew and it's hard to understand the Biblical Hebrew and they're trying to take their best guess what was really meant here they'll
look first at the Greek which is sort of the oldest alternate version and arguably the second most useful witness
to what did the Hebrew really mean is the syc because it's also old and and
sometimes people think okay the the reading that the syc has is probably
originally uh what the Hebrews said okay and after the syc they'll look at like
later the targums or Latin Vulgate or whatever right but but the syak Bible
the pesida is the name of it okay when it talks the the word kumra sorry the
word Kar in Biblical Hebrew is is kumra in the syc language of the pida and when
melchisedek appears to uh Abraham in the Book of Genesis he is
described as a kumra okay so we don't know who the Karim are but like there's this
interesting note that maybe they're connected with melkisedek but uh Josiah goes after them
and the King James translation calls them idolatrous priests and again this is just slander there's no reason to
think they were idolatrous there was some class of priests in Israel maybe associated with melkisedek that's super
interesting Josiah goes after them and he smashes stuff up and he both of these
guys also um massively
uh well they're famous for and they they they're glorified for destroying
something called the Ashera about which there are all kinds of really big interesting questions which we may get
to today right so this is this is Lehi probably Nephi is born after this or on
the tail end of this right this is this is the big reform form I.E the violent
bloody political uh coercive reorganizing of Israel's religion that
happens during lehi's time now it's super interesting right
that Nephi's party seems not seems to identify themselves um by by a term so
the the boys get back from Jerusalem after the after a little bit of try and try again we've got the records okay and
it turns out sah has been unhappy and and she says and she's was she she had
complained about Lehi bringing them out here in the middle of nowhere and says he did it because he was a Visionary man
Lehi Lehi says he accepts he says I am a Visionary man and he says and by the way
I've seen all these amazing things and visions and later on Layman and lemel pick it up and and go after Lehi and
Nephi saying oh Visionary men right um which seems to
be uh well why why is this a striking striking title for me uh there's a book
called The Dawn of apocalyptic by Paul Hansen okay um and who who was writing
about the apocalyptic literature and trying to uh explain where it came from
now apocalyptic is is really a genre it's not a there's no like
book of the apocalyptic yeah well end of days is a feature that's what you call uh uh that's one of the kinds of dualism
eschatological dualism and in the future the world will be different and here's how it will be different but it's really
revelatory it's it's opening the windows of Heaven it's it's it's it's Visionary it's Visionary absolutely and and there
are some apocalyptic books Scholars talk about this genre the the the
apocalyptic movement literature idea sort of appears in the late Old
Testament So Daniel or some chapters of Daniel are commonly said to be apocalyptic a contemporary of Lehi yeah
yeah there's there's a lot of um inter testamental literature stuff like first
Enoch that is said to be apocalyptic okay and then in the New Testament of
course you've got things like uh The Book of Revelation The Apocalypse of St
John which is actually the the book that this whole genre takes its name from but
also Matthew 24 the so so-called little apocalypse okay so it's this uh um it's
a genre that's spread out in different collections of books and Paul Hansen says where does this stuff come from he
says probably he makes an argument that it comes from Isaiah that the the
apocalyptic arises among the Disciples of Isaiah uh who first write extra
chapters and say Isaiah wrote this and they put it in in with the rest and and and it's very
common um understanding or belief that a lot of Isaiah basically was generated
that way over time um and then they start writing their own books um and and
he calls these he he he refers to this as he calls them Visionaries so the
whole time you're reading this book is a Mormon and this guy Paul Hansen I don't know I can't remember what he is but he's some kind of Christian or whatever
right you're reading it and he's talking about and Visionaries this and Visionaries that and how much they loved Isaiah and how much they're they they
they see themselves in Isaiah and you're just going uh so um because it sounds
like Nephi right so uh I don't think that Sariah made up that word I think
that was a party and and I think we can say some things about it we can say that
they saw themselves as associated with the prophets that they saw Jeremiah as
being if not one of their number at least friendly right at least someone they liked and were allied with right
maybe he was one of them um we can say that their great opponent was the Jews
who are at Jerusalem now what does that mean well well a Jew in Hebrew yehudi uh
is a is a judahite the yehudim the Judah ites who were at Jerusalem this is the
Royal tribe right uh we live in a time when it feels awkward to be talking about the Jews who this the Jews who
that but but all it is is these are this is the Royal tribe of Jew Jud which is Josiah's tribe uh Josiah's gone now by
the time the Book of Mormon starts um and uh who are at Jerusalem so it's it's
it's not it's not an ethnic thing it's not it's the people who are controlling political and religious power right
those are those are the opponents and they're killing the prophets and they and they go after Lehi and they want to
kill him right and um so so one of the interesting things to realize
um is uh history usually is written by the
winner right the winner goes back and says Ah I was noble and I was Brave and
I was faithful and did the right thing and here's how it happens uh and and then we try to sort of uh later piece
through data that might tell us how other people saw it right well here what
we have is the other side historically Lehi and his party are not the winner
the Visionary men are the losers it's the Jews who are at Jerusalem who have a who have a different religion
right what what are what are Layman and lemel worked up about they don't like the Visions they they say hey we're we're
righteous we keep the law of Moses what's what's wrong with us yeah that's one of the key things I think Dave that
people miss on this right you never see them breaking the law of Moses they're not adulterers they're not breaking the
Sabbath they're not stealing you know they do want to murder but they're doing it because of the law of Moses or how
they interpret it they're they're looking at it as you know Lehi and Nephi are Blasphemous Le Layman and lmel they
might they very well could be zealots for for the law of Moses in in a dter
deuteronomic fashion right and so they yeah we want to always kind of classify
things like well here's the good guys and here's the bad guys and and we read the Old Testament and you hear about
well the the the prophets are crying repentance so he's there they're they're
calling out the bad boys and girls you know the problem with all of that
is you can't there is no repentance from the prophets without Jesus
Christ right what are they how are they repenting how do they what are they relying on where's their faith in
there's repentance has to do with Christ and so I I look at Layman and lemel as
they're as they're pulling away here they don't go to the tree they're they're against L Nephi and
Lehi um they're it's almost blatant in your face that these are deuteronomists
and and and that if they're deuteronomists they're Antichrist yeah one one of the key distinction seems to
be Lehi has Visions actually the Visions in Le in Nephi 1 are actually both
clearly Temple Visions so he has Temple Visions so like one of the interesting questions is what is the connection
between the Visionary men and the temple that's an interesting question um Nephi's response is I too can have
visions right and so uh and by the way
uh we haven't even talked about the word Mysteries yet but
um maybe we will if we don't let me say that the word mystery means an ordinance
a mystery is a long ordinance connected to a sacred drama like the mysteries of
Isis or the mysteries of el usus and a Taos you're getting to a fulfillment
it's it's going through the initiatory that's right so there's a transformation of the person to a new kind of a status
um and they have they have uh there's a Salvation idea connected to it so uh so
Nephi uh 1:1 he says be having known the
mysteries of God therefore I write this book like we ought to be
thinking okay he's a Visionary man these are visions of the temple it's because
of his Temple knowledge he tells us that we that he writes the book we should be looking for this stuff but his reaction
to Lehi uh saying here here's the vision um
his reaction to the first Vision in first Nephi 1 the double vision of the fire on the Rock and the Throne of God
which are the same thing is Nephi says I wanted to know the mysteries of God this is first Nephi 2:16 I think I wanted to
go and so I went and called upon the Lord and in answer he appeared to me
right so for the Visionary men God answers prayer and indeed he he visits
you and in fact it seems that it seems that the Mysteries to the Visionary men have something to do with being in the
presence of God visiting with visiting with God right whereas in I think it's
first Nephi 15 Lehi Nephi's oh oh okay first before we get there so Nephi um
Nephi's response to the later Vision first Nephi the vision of the tree is again I want to know right and there's
very provocative language in first Nephi 10 which Echoes The Sermon on the Mount which we may talk about which says look
uh uh the those who seek and ask can know the mysteries of God that's
there's that language again and it says the the course of the Lord is one Eternal round and boy if that one verse
didn't tip us off uh 195 years ago Maybe not maybe by the time we were 1840s we
were getting endowments in in navu we should have said oh wait a minute look look first Nei 10 the course of the Lord
is one Eternal round we should have been thinking about this right so Nephi takes it seriously my fathers had this Vision
again is a temple Vision as sent through threee part space from the field as wide as the world to the great and spacious
building across the straight and narrow path into the presence of the tree where everyone falls down because of the
nature of the tree okay that's the vision Nei says I want to have a vision too and he gets one and it's four
chapters long and then his brothers in first ne15 says well tell us about what dad was going on
about and he goes well why don't you why don't you ask go inquire the Lord go
inquire the Lord and they say well he the Lord maketh no such thing known unto us us right this appears to be their
Doctrine right because because all religion has been Consolidated and
centralized if anyone is able to go and inquire of the Lord in the deuteronomic religion it's the high priest right but
there is no there is no you out there hey you got a question God will answer
you hey uh are you anxious and sincere and wish to meet the Lord in person that
can happen for you too that's that's heretical for the deuteronomist right yeah the the deuteronomic the deuteric
deuteronomic system is very anti-democratic it is very
anti-democratic very anti-democratic and and and it's it's very therefore very
anti-individualistic yep it's elitist and there's an interesting thing I think this is an observation Margaret Barker
has made it's interesting to think that a lot of the things that Deuteronomy
forbids are the things that Abraham Isaac and Jacob do build your own all
alter where you want worship under a tree uh call on a meet with God directly
right the stars of the heaven the heavenly host who are the Angels and who are all the stars it's the same thing
are part of Abraham's Vision but it's forbidden there's forbidden in Deuteronomy um uh Abraham's not a he's
not a Cohen he's not a levite he's out there offering sacrifice anyway and by the way so is Le Lehi right so is Lehi
so when you hear when you hear the phrase you know the god of Abraham Isaac and Jacob like just think about that what
did Abraham Isaac and Jacob do who seems to be doing that right who
who seems to be in that in that religion but so but so I think you're right I think there's every reason to think that
if we knew Layman and lemel and if we were if we were just conventional ordinary you and I
shopkeepers in Jerusalem in 600 BC and we knew all these people we might say
Layman and lemel are yeah they're upstanding decent guys you know they y they're not they're not law Breakers you
know uh Layman goes and tries to buyback the plates right it's Nephi who chops
off laan's head and steals them l so uh I I think there's every reason to think
that Layman and lemel are of the reformed party they go along with their father he's their father maybe right uh
honor thy father and thy mother is still a commandment to Deuteronomy yeah I think that's why they do it yeah and it
gets they get more and more rebellious the further it goes right and and when
the father's gone eventually right it's right after Lehi dies first second Nephi
four Nephi Grieves using by the way the language of The Sermon on the Mount he's grieving he's you know Wrap Me In Your
robe of righteousness keep the Gate of righteousness open let me come and and build upon the rock right that's all
Temple Sermon on the Mount language um the next thing that happens is the Layman and lemel basically uh the spirit
constrains Nephi to flee because Layman and Lem are going to kill him because so it seems like it's respect for or love
for their father that is keeping them on the journey all that time yeah Dave you
know it it seems you know as I look at that and I and and you really when you understand that this dynamic between the
one side Layman and lemel and and and the other side with Nephi and Lehi it's that is the entire Book of Mormon
yeah right you you have the this sets the stage for the entire Book of Mormon
and the whole history it's not just a division of the peoples it's a division of the theology
yep and you know the lonit they worship they have in some places they've got a you know it's the great spirit and
they've got their synagogue SL churches there these are religious people we
we've got Ammon uh showing up during the feast you know it's these are religious
people but they have a different religion that does not include Christ yeah the zoramites too they have a
religion and they have a ceremony and and they leave the Nephites and they go with the lamanites and and the am
ammonites are are you know they've got their religion and it's it's I think
when you look at this you you say okay well what is the story of The Book of Mormon really about then yeah and it
it's there there's I believe in looking at it I think the most important obviously you have another Testament of
Jesus Christ well how how does the Book of Mormon tell that story yeah it's and
what you have is you have the prophets of the Nephites the people sometimes they go in that little cycle but then
you've got the dissenters and every one of the denters go over to the lamanites yeah you know
they don't go off and start their own little thing they don't there you have the zoramites leave to them the even the
uh the the the priests of Noah end up going over with the lamanites uh you've
got the uh amachi am malakiah they all end up going over and
fighting and being with the lamanites who are Antichrist and what I
mean by that is they don't believe in Christ they kill a benadi because he's preaching about
Christ yeah and so you've got right from the beginning Layman and LEL do not go
to the tree uh they've got the Deuter deuteronomic uh uh theology in with them yep and it
just carries on I think for through the entire the entire the entire account of the Book of Mormon yeah and I think I I
think this point about Christ is really important let me let me um let me make a
slightly not a disagreeing but like an additional kind of characterization sure a a high level observation about the
Book of Mormon um you're you're phrasing uh your observation in terms of denters
and I think I think that uh it's interesting to think about who the sort
of protagonists of the Book of Mormon are who are these people that we follow right
um Lehi has Visions abandons his wealth runs out of the city the if there's a
denter like it's probably Lehi right so I think I think the better the better metric is to say he he was willing to
follow Christ even when the institution or or because the
institution would not right Nephi again flees from his older brothers second
Nephi 5 right you get a benadi who preaches in Disguise Alma who takes
people out and they have their secret Church uh out in the thickets you get Samuel The lonite Who uh comes sneaks up
onto the wall jumps up and says you all are mess here is the Judgment coming upon you
they try to kill him and he runs away right um You When when we have people
who when the Book of Mormon is following people who have institutional power what we see again and again is that they
actually put it down right so mosiah Sons uh walk away from their uh their
princely inheritances right which which got them their education it's why they know the scriptures so well right is
because they're trained in the language of their father and Egyptian apparently they they walk away none of them want to
be none of them want to be king uh they want to go be missionaries Elma we briefly very briefly are we have as our
protagonist a guy Elma II uh who uh is the the high priest head of the church
but for about three chapters and then he concludes actually uh this is not what I
should be doing I need to be going at and preaching repentance and he goes and gets with AMU and they have a long
missionary journey you have you have uh Mormon right who steps down uh my people
are not righteous enough for me to even the Civil Authority right military Authority I won't exercise it so like I
think you're absolutely right the Book of Mormon is about Christ I think it's also it is a Visionary book and and
there's this there's this really interesting thing that um
by its terms it's not the whole book right first of all by its terms it's
only like half of the unsealed part because like we lost half Thanks Martin
right but then there's the sealed part which is apparently bigger so there's like a whole lot more Book of Mormon
we've been waiting for for 195 years right so so I guess this is thing three
one The Book of Mormon is christcentric two it is uh Visionary three uh we don't have all the pieces right
and somehow what we're doing is not enough um and then four there's this
really interesting provoc what do you mean by we're not doing enough why do you say that because we don't have the
rest yeah I thought that's what I thought you meant yeah yeah there's there's something that leaves us still
under condemnation you know and and I am inclined to think it's not that our home
teaching numbers are too low like I I I just I don't feel that that's it like I
don't think that some some set of metrics that church office building is following if we improve that like that's
the answer if it feels to me like we're just somehow we're missing it right let
me in case anyone is now wondering I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of latterday saints I do not attend a
Remnant Fellowship I like I am an Elders Quorum secretary right so I'm so I'm not
suggesting look the answer is like abandon the church I am saying it is troubling that we are in this position
and it is it is deeply troubling Greg I there's a risk this conversation turns
all political that's not where I want to push this but I find the Book of Mormon on the political front
terrifyingly relevant these days it's a very political book well it it is let me
back up a little bit on the Christ thing because yeah this is uh so i' I've all gone through this
quite a bit and studied this and you you you're bringing in Isaiah which I think is really important yeah uh to me the
entire Book of Mormon is built around Isaiah y uh but you know back in the
time of Hezekiah and and Isaiah something very interesting happens and that is that there is an
object in the temple that is called the nusan and it is the Brazen serpent yep
okay this thing gets tossed out of the temple what does the BR Brazen serpent
represent yeah you know so you've got an object here that represents Christ yep
that is now I don't care who you are as an authority of the church or the kingdom or anyone
else how are you going to get to the point where you're going to throw out a symbol that was with
Moses and and you're going to throw this out of the temple and get rid of it yeah
now it says in in the historical books in the Old Testament that they threw it out because the people started to
worship it and and burned insense to it other fine I can I can see that
but whether it's the people that have changed who Christ
was and therefore the symbol of Christ or it's the priesthood and the King that
are in on it the fact is it is a perfect manifest station of a loss of Christ and
this to me is why we have Isaiah yeah Isaiah is the Messianic prophet and in
most places throughout the Book of Mormon the New Testament he's just called the prophet right he is the prophet and he's
reacting he's reacting to an environment that I would suggest the deuteronomist have come down and and and started to
change things they've infested this it acts like a virus and they have changed
the religion to be to remove Christ and Isaiah's fighting against
this y right he's out there fighting against this and this is why Lei and Nephi relate so well to him because
they're going through the same thing now come down to the time of Josiah's
reforms and you get this thing called the Ashera that gets thrown out of the
temple well of course everyone says well of course as was thrown out of the temple it was corrupted the temple and
and therefore it is uh it's the Canaanite goddess and I'm glad they got rid of that well hold on as you said you
know the To the victor goes not just the spoils but history yeah and and so this
ashra if it is a manora type of an object it's a tree probably a large
manora that would have S in the holy of holies there is some references to this yep and it is removed and it is the Tree
of Life of lehi's vision yeah and it gets tossed out this
represents you know you lean a little more toward toward a mother in heaven or the divine feminine and I and I agree
that's part of it but to me it is also a representation of Christ and and and this has now been
also removed from the temple again yeah and therefore a reaction again for Lehi
in his dream y saying okay wait a minute this has been thrown out um he this is a
response his dream is a response to this it it's like no we have to go to the
tree you don't remove the tree you have to go to the tree and uh and therefore
you have to go to Christ and this has been thrown out so you've got this
precedent happening over and over again and then Lehi and Nephi pulling in Isaiah so much loving
the words of Isaiah and of of course there's all the prophecies and everything else but he he is the one in
that time it looks to me like like he's the one there fighting for Christ yeah so uh there's there's so
many um I have so many reactions to things you said let me let me start with the tree one of the interesting things
about the Book of Mormon again I think I think we could make just a series of high level observations about the Book
of Mormon that if we thought about them it would kind of blow our minds and raise interesting questions so uh
another so one of those is the Visionary me but another one is the Tree of Life The Book of Mormon is obsessed with the Tree of Life The Book
of Mormon writes about the Tree of Life in first Nephi 8 then there's an explanation of it I'm going to come back to in first Nei 11 then there's a
discussion of it in first Nephi 15 uh we get discussions of it in Alma 5 uh which
is uh a long sermon by Elma with Elma 32 and 33 where the poor of the zoramites
ask how can we worship without access to the building and uh Alma explains how
they can still access the tri of life um and others and other passages okay
multiple uh um it's it's an obsession that's super interesting why are the
Visionary men so interested in the trio life now let's rewind Isaiah and the nushan for a minute because that's also
super interesting um that the nushan gets two shoutouts from the Nephi prophets one of them I think is from
Elma talking to one of his sons so it's like Alma 40ish um and I think maybe it's Corey
Anthony's like hey look this you just got to look to you just got to look to it's compar the nushan is compared to
Christ you have to look to uh being raised up to be healed of the snake bites and you have to look to
Christ to live and that's by the way that's the center of Elma 36 the kaym
about elma's own conversion experience is when he calls on Jesus Christ that is the moment when he is born again and
everything turns around for him he's telling his son to the same the other the other place is uh first Nephi I
think 16 or 17 maybe it's Nephi preaching to his brothers in the land of Bountiful now here's a fun little
parenthetical okay uh 2013 uh an Israeli scholar named
Zeon svit publishes a book called what really happened in the Garden of Eden one of the I've read it yeah he he says
he says how should we translate the name Eden and he says uh Bountiful yeah yeah
I put out an episode on that about five years ago when I had read that I said what what in the world are you saying
here okay so hold on because I'm going to say something about that so first of all the Nephites this name is so important they use it in apparently the
Arabian Peninsula but also in the new world right but if you go look at that first Nephi um in the original
chaptering it all happens in first Nephi 5 so I can't remember if it's first Nephi 16 and 17 or just one of those
maybe it's just 16 there's a journey in three-part space the Nephites the Le lehit party go goes to
three named places Okay the third the destination is
Eden they end their journey in Eden which and by the way why did we call it
Bountiful because of the fruit because of the uh honey um uh Nephi sees the
Lord there he builds an ark there and the all of the analogues for the Ark in
ancient Egypt are boats so there is this this sort of interesting idea that the ark is some kind of a cousin to or in
some sense is thought of as a boat okay uh Nephi goes and builds a boat of work
Timbers of curious workmanship and this is where okay in Eden the third part of
this three-part Journey he talks about the nushan okay which uh if Hebrews uh
is right uh let's see is it Hebrews uh
yeah uh no no that's that's Mana the nushan if it's kept in the holy of holies this is the room where it appears
right this that is eeden the third room in the temple by the way the second name place they go to this is all
parenthetical is nahem which appears to be an existing name right A lot's been written about that the fundamental
meaning of the word nahem is comfort and I don't think we're going to have time to talk about this today but that Ascent
through three-part space that's in Exodus 24 that's in The Sermon on the Mount Mount one of the markers of it is
that in the second space you have a feast with the Lord this is what the Elders of Israel do in Exodus 24 it's
what people in in Matthew 6 do and the mark of that Feast is Comfort it's a
Psalm 23 my rod and my staff comfort you um it's also Moroni sacramental prayers
you the blessing that they may have his holy spirit to be with them as the presence of the comforter so we have
this three-part Journey the second part the part where you should be having a feast with the Lord is indeed marked
it's named Comfort the third part is named apparently Eden the first part I'm sorry I maybe I'm getting ahead
of you so the second part being the holy place would be where the bread of the presences and the wine correct um and
the first room the first space in this three-part name Journey uh uh they call
it Shazer or Shazer this is an interesting um
uh root if you look it up in in dictionaries it says that the verb uh
means to twist it only appears in one form in the
Old Testament it appears only in the book of Exodus appears about 20 times and that form is masar so the verb is
shazar it appears mashar and what it means is uh
twined and so every T every time and it's like 20 times in the book of Exodus
that the priest's robes the door to the temple the veil to the temple the
hangings that make up the walls of the temple is the construction is described it's and it says it's fine twined linen
that's Shazer that's shazar that's masar so we have this really this journey in three-part space with these very Temple
resonant words and at the at the end of it Nephi is talking about among other
things the nushan now let's talk about Isaiah and the nushan um I just again I'm reading this
commentary these days um the hermana commentary for first Isaiah JJM Roberts
is the author and in his commentary on Isaiah 6 so remember Isaiah 6 as I was
in the temple I saw the Lord lifted up and his uh the King James says his train
filled the temple it's it's it's the it's his skirt uh uh actually what it says is it
filled the ha call it filled the second room where I was standing he's on he's up on the he's up on the throne but he
but God is Giant and and I am you know within the perimeter of his skirts and
uh and a serap comes forward right okay so the commentary Jim Roberts makes
about that is and he's not alone thinking this Margaret Barker has said this lots of other Scholars have said
this the serif is probably a snake it's a winged snake okay there's a lot of
examples from this time of snakes with two or four wings representing the kings
of Judah or representing like a Divine being that protects the king of Judah
okay but like the text where you really see it is numbers 21 which is the nushan
text because uh because uh the are out they're biting everyone God says to
Moses go and get a Sara go and get a sarif and Moses gets or makes a nahash a
serpent and puts it on the pole and that's the nushan and and so Robert says
um the the sarap the seraphim which means burning ones are should be
understood to be winged venomous snakes and do they have hands they actually have hands but that's because that you
know there were no in fact winged venomous snakes in Judea this is a this is like a mythological yep right it's a
vision creature so and and by the and so Robert says this is interesting he says
um this uh that Isaiah thinks that that's the nushan that he's basing his
vision on things that were really in the temple there's really the ark uh there's
really this nushan right so so yes Hezekiah in 2 Kings 184 um who who he
comes Isaiah is if we take what what is said about Isaiah in the book of Isaiah
and Kings seriously Isaiah's already in his
career as Prophet when Hezekiah comes on the throne right so he was with the prior King yeah Uzziah right in the year
uh is where Isaiah starts um but uh whereas
Hezekiah takes down the nushan Isaiah 6 tend to suggest that
Isaiah finds the nushan to be a divine being that it's the nean who is a serif
who commission Isaiah okay so so and and why is it
interesting well because I actually think that the same thing is true with respect to the yasher and um I think you
and I don't have time to go into all the details but let me just tell you very quickly at a high level what I think and
I'm going to point you at the text in the Book of Mormon that really got me started down this because this is really
this is a this is my journey is a book of Mormon journey I have read the the Bible in Hebrew and Greek okay um but my
journey is not a I went to Harvard Theological Seminary and and read critical scholarship it's it's me trying
to figure out what makes the Book of Mormon make sense yeah that's probably a positive in many cases yeah I think
that's why I still believe in God so so um so um if you look at Isaiah
3-6 okay I'm just going to tell you how I read them um and tell you why I think that
um you can go look it up on your own but then I'll I'll talk about the Book of Mormon so these four chapters I read
them like um like a call and a response and then a
call and a response okay it's a structured text and and and the call is
there is a catastrophe there is an apostasy in my day here is what heaven does about it so that's Isaiah three and
then Isaiah four and then Isaiah 5 is a different account of the same
catastrophe and Isaiah 6 is a more detail on or a different account of
Heaven's response okay so I think I think we should take Isaiah 3-6
seriously as describing Isaiah's experience of um the beginning of his
ministry the apostasy and how he comes to to be the prophet he is and why and
why he prophesies the way he does okay and by the way we should we should bear
in the back of mind that Nephi several times Compares himself to Isaiah and so
I think we should we should like this this for this all to ring true we need
to be able to go yeah okay Isaiah has some stuff in common with Nephi they've got you know this apparently poetic uh
very well educated Court prophet and you know Nephi the wild man chopping off his
cousin's head and stealing the books right must like what how why does Nephi
look at that guy and say I am like him right okay Isaiah 3 apostasy there is a
crisis of leadership okay there is said to be uh no bread uh there um uh said
all various leaders and skilled people in Jerusalem are missing or will be taken away uh we we grab a brother in
the house of the father and say will you be the leader and he says no I have no
bread and I have no clothing I cannot be a Healer okay um there's a super
interesting Isaiah 3:9 says um they
declare their sin as Sodom they hide it not now I'm going to come back to that
that that matters so in this apostasy and I don't think this is about homosexuality okay but but but these
people are proud LLY doing something the sodomites did is part of their apostasy
and uh in all of this uh late in the chapter uh there is a there is a
reassurance uh the tell say to the righteous they will still be able to eat the fruit okay that's Isaiah 3 what is
the response Isaiah 4 seven men take hold seven women take hold of a man now
I don't think that's about polygamy okay um um let me just leave that where it is
come we may come back to it uh they take they say hey uh we will provide the
bread we will provide the clothing right these are the things that were missing in chapter three so I this is why I
think it's a it's a call and response because chapter 4 Echoes chapter 3 I don't think that's accidental we'll
provide the bread we'll provide the clothing we just need someone to Bear the
name um and uh there is a there is a and and there there's a statement that the
righteous will be able to eat the fruit okay so I think that's uh that's sort of
the the also in Isaiah 4 there is some Exodus imagery where there's a a cloud
of smoke and a pillar of fire they go on they go to Every Dwelling Place on Mount
Zion which is interesting I don't know what to make of it but it feels to me Greg like um hey if the official Temple
is inaccessible if it's corrupted the new Exodus is going to be into every
dwelling place right that's that's that's straight interpretation that's
that's what it seems like to me but okay deficit of leadership these seven women grab a man
and hey you we need you to Bear the name Isaiah
5 um Isaiah 5 um I'm going to tell you
some things about the Hebrew you can go look them up okay Isaiah 5 starts out
says let let me sing or now let me sing a song about uh my beloved in his
Vineyard and you read that in Hebrew the Striking thing is that the first word in
this chapter is ashir ashir is not the same as
Asher but it's oh so close the only difference is it has a jot a yod like a
letter i in it sheer is a song or sing ashier is I sing ashir means let me sing
now may I sing okay but chapter six
sorry five opens with what looks like the name Ashira and in case you didn't
get the reference it's in this little parable about Vines like we get in the New Testament
yes that's right Matthew Matthew plays on this and Enoch does also right this and and those in those passages this is
understood to be a parable about the temple okay so Temple language tree
language ashir now 613 that's 5 1-4 or
something 613 says something like the King James
is something like uh yet a tenth shall return and it shall be as a teal tree and as an um yeah um again the Hebrew
here is really striking because a 10 is Assyria which again sounds a lot like
Ashira so an an Assyria shall return and again we're given a tree context it'll
be like a teal tree and like an oak and by the way a teal the teal tree or it's translated as a tabin in some versions
the Hebrew there is a a is also readable straight up as
goddess L is a God the Father God Hebrew is kind of like Spanish He
add an A on the end of most things that makes him feminine right so ish is a man Isha is a woman Seuss is a stallion Susa
is a May L is God a yeah it's the word for a terbin but also it's straight up
readable as a goddess right so this Isaiah 613 says acaria a tenth will
return it will be like AA a goddess by the way the I think the um I think the
King James uses some word like Source or something in there um uh which other uh
twice in the verse which other um trans substance that's what it is substance
other translations say this is the root or the stump the word is actually
matet okay which means a pillar so it does mean like a stump but it also means
a standing Stone so when you read the deuteronomist talking about the going down the high place is knocking down the
standing stones they're knocking down the mato this is the same word okay
so AER will return it will be like the goddess like a teal tree like an oak and
you know enough strength remains in the mat boat that it can all come back right
so again we have five and and six a kind of call response with man this big old
looks like a shout out to Asher what it looks like you read the Hebrew okay now
um I'll point out two other passages one and five and 1 and six you and I don't have time to walk through everything
here okay uh 58-
20 so uh and by the way Roberts's commentary the commentary on verses 18
and 19 is awesome he says this is clearly an oracle of judgment I can't figure out what the sin is supposed to
be here so um 18 says something like woe
unto them who sin uh who draw iniquity as it were with chords of vanity okay
who sin by hauling on a cart rope something like that right um I get why this does not seem
like a very clear description of a sin but I think what we ought to imagine as you say later Josiah burns the asheran
grinds the Ashes to nothing in the Kidron Brook okay Hezekiah is said to
have cut down the Asher karat he cut down the Asher not totally clear what
that verb means um I think what we should imagine here
is something very literal in this verse people have something heavy in ropes and
they're pulling it and what that something heavy could be is a big gold
manora a tree lamp which also is an ash which would have been according to
Visionary accounts like first Nephi 8 in The Sermon on the Mount in the holy of holies and they're moving it okay that's
Verse 18 woe unto those guys now verse 19 okay verse 19 uh I'm paraphrasing but
they say like uh make him hurry up hasten the work that let the counsel of
the Holy One of Israel come forth that we may know it something like that right okay is that the sword yeah well
so not not the sword so the word here is is ETA so it's seel not c l ETA now
ETA is very close to ETS again it's like Su Susa Isa ETA looks like the feminine
of ETS okay etsa does mean counsel but ETS means
tree so the etat of the Holy One of Israel looks like it means the tree lady
the feminine tree of the Holy One of Israel let the Fe let the tree the tree
Lady of the Holy One of Israel come forth that we may know her now by the way remember that Isaiah 3:9 says um
they declare their sin as Sodom they hided not so if you go look at Genesis
195 The Messengers have come to lot's house and the men of
Sodom come bang on the door and they say
send the men out that we may know
them so that is the same that we may know them Ned uh is this is the same word here in Hebrew it's the same image
send it out send the tree out that we may know her now in the King James
translation it's sort of baffling it looks like I it looks like they're saying they're asking for a nice thing I
want to understand the advice of the Holy One of Israel that's not it at all
it send the tree out so that we can sexually assault her and they
Echo the language of Genesis 195 and this is why Isaiah says their sin is as
Sodom they hide it not now that's 18 and 19 verse 20
confirms this reading for us and then I'm going to go to the Book of Mormon okay verse 20 says uh woe unto those that
call good evil and evil good okay I think we're talking about the same people they're 2 Kings 18:4
they're patting themselves on the back Hezekiah got rid of the Ashera yeah that was some pag and garbage and Hezekiah
yeah right calling evil good um but then it says uh one one of
them that put light for Darkness Darkness for light that put bitter for
sweet sweet for bitter so um they're not calling anymore they're moving something they're putting
something well if you put light for Darkness Darkness for light that's a
pretty good description of taking the light that was in the holy of holies it's supposed to be there all the
Visionary accounts put the light in the holy of holies and you move that into the center room then the holy of holies
the the place of light and life becomes darkness and the Center Hall that's
supposed to be dark and Smoky becomes light right you're placing light for Darkness Darkness for light the the
order well so the third thing that plays bitter for sweet and Sweet for
bitter you got to see three other texts alongside this one the first is Exodus 15 so the first
part of Exodus 15 is the so-called song of the sea it's this this whole chapter
is super old poetry and it it it it's in context it's supposed to be about Yahweh
defeating the Egyptians maybe it's even older than that and it's about Yahweh defeating his Cosmic enemies and
building the Temple Hill on their bones okay but the story in the second half is
that the Israelites come along to a place called Mara well Mara means bit her MH and they
can't drink the waters there are Waters of Mara they can't drink them God has a solution God gives Moses a tree an
ETS and when Moses puts the tree in the water it turns the water from Mara
bitter to matoke sweet now this by the way we're going to
get back to Isaiah five here but but this explains something really odd about
first Nephi because because Nephi Lehi has the
vision Nephi asks to understand it he's given his own Vision to explain first Nei
11:25 um he sees that the iron Rod is the word of God the tree is the love of
God the waters were also a representation of the love of God okay that's what he
sees then his brothers say Hey you explain us this thing dude and uh and he
first of all says why don't you ask but they're not going to get their own Vision so he gives them very truncated limited
explanations okay including an explanation about the water and I forget
what verse this is but he says the water is the filthy depths of hell now isn't that interesting because
that's not the answer he got in chapter 11 he was told it was the love of God
how is that possible well remember the vision Lehi from the point of view of
the vision he's all the he walks all the way to the end he's by the tree okay Layman and lemy don't get that
far they go a little way and then they stop right I don't I can't remember I
don't think we hear whether they turn off into the great and spacious building or what but they don't go great spous ability they wander off into the field
they wander off yeah right how can the river both be the love of God and the and the filthy depths of
Hell well the answer is that the presence of the tree makes the river sweet okay where the tree is it's sweet
where it's not where lemon and lemel are it is bitter right which to come back to Isaiah 5
they call good evil and evil good they place they put Darkness for light and light for Darkness they call uh they put
sweet for bitter and bitter for sweet if they move the tree they move the sweetness forward and
the and they move the bitterness back right now all of that is my reading
of Isaiah and and and I get people are going to be saying well a I don't read
Hebrew and like Dave is saying this but Dave is just this goofy looking guy in an office somewhere and why right Dave
is an Elders core secretary by his own admission why should I list the DAT I will say real quick Dave it's
interesting because I've got a note here from many years back in my gospel library and I'm looking at this note
here it says all it says is like the fruit of the
tree sweet yeah that's all I've got there is written on on verse 20 there
yeah first Nephi 8:10 the the fruit was very sweet and uh desirable to make one
happy yeah and by the way as I'm saying this Greg I am cherry-picking a straight
line through there are all kinds of other little things on the S but let me
come back to like the the whammy the punch you in the face which isn't Isaiah
because man we most of us just read the King James and we're like ah okay um
it's it's Nephi so Nephi wants a vision of what his father
saw okay and uh first Nephi 11 oh I
think it's like 6 to 15 something like that one my favorite chapters yeah this is such this is this goes to the heart
of like what is the Book of Mormon about and it goes to the heart of like the whole Tree of Life thing all this to me
Greg I I think this is like right out the at the edge this is the stuff we're supposed to be trying to figure out so
we can get more that's what I that's what I think so
uh the Nei says I want to see what my father saw Angel says cool here's a tree
the tree is white and beautiful and Nephi says I want to know what the tree
means and and the angel says cool and shows him uh I'm par rasing obviously
shows him first of all a vision of cities now that's probably a discourse for another time okay but for
Isaiah cities are women like Zion is the city of Jerusalem is the daughter of
Zion who is a kind of a Divine woman she's a dressed like she's a goddess the whole time okay so um the answer to the
question what is the tree that is white and beautiful is that the angel shows
Nephi a woman who is white and beautiful now that's the answer he gets
the tree with the delicious sweet fruit desirable to make you happy is a woman with a baby in her arms now the answer
he gives Layman and lemel they go uh and what is the tree my bro and he says it's
the tree of life now he's giving them simpler answers but he's not giving them false answers but one thing that tells us is
if we read first Nephi 11 it's not as simple as oh he was shown you know the tree is a
symbol of Mary like it's not that simple because the tree is a tree of life Nei
says that so we have we have an idea we have a symbol we have a we have
a we have a Nexus of meaning here okay where the tree is the tree of life is
the mother of the fruit desirable to make one happy um that that's all that's all one thing
and by the way in first Nephi 8:30 when people come into the presence and again I've said this we're probably
not going to talk about it very much more today but uh that is an first Nephi
is an Ascent through three-part space it is a temple Ascent because the the Solomon's Temple is three levels three
three parts and it ends with going through the straight and narrow path someone or something who is the word of
God you grasp it four times and you enter into the presence of the tree and in 8:30 what Nephi says is people when
they come in the presence of the tree they fall down now he doesn't say more than that
but it's really striking because in the ancient east the near
East in the presence of a Divinity or a king and the the line between those is
often very fine you didn't bow from the
waist okay like like frustrate yeah you lay
flat okay Herodotus talks about this he's a Greek about lehi's time and he's kind of he's like you'll never believe
what these crazy people in Asia do when they get into their King's they lie all the way flat on the ground not like us
civilized Greeks okay that I think is what we're seeing here is when you enter
into the presence of the tree and I think you were in the presence of the mother and the son because the sun is clearly the fruit or at least
the sun is here right I think the tree is the mother and the Sun is the fruit um again there's other Trails we could
go down to kind of talk about that people fall down again they don't think they're in the presence of Mary they're
responding like they're in the presence of a Divine being right and and that's
just straight that's just straight Book of Mormon so for me the Isaiah stuff is interesting it's it's telling it raises
lots of questions and Mysteries but I think although he although Isaiah appears to be a court prophet and
appears to be trying to always get Hezekiah to remember his covenants with God as
king he clearly disagrees with the policy of removing the nushan and I
think he to me it seems very clear from Isaiah 5 and6 that he disagrees with
removing the Ashera and I think he is fundamentally the founder of the party
of the Visionary men I think the Visionary men are people who um
um are adopting the method of Isaiah Now give me a second I'm going to say at least one last thing about the method of
Isaiah here um they uh they are rooted in the temple ideologically it is a more
democratic Temple order than the one that's described in in Kings and Chronicles because you don't appear to
have to be a levite or a Cohen right you appear to have to be a keeper of covenants and they believe that God can
appear to you and the testimony of Lehi and Nephi is that he does right and that you can be you can be guided by visions
and and um and they see themselves in Isaiah because he's the founder of their
movement and because in an apostasy in his day aah Isaiah does a takes an
action to kind of Escape like they are taking an action to
escape fleeing uh fleeing Jerusalem now the Isaiah method okay I'll just quote a
few more verses Greg I know we're going long you're fine keep going all right but but we've all we I got a question
for you though but but keep going okay okay Isaiah 6 okay and I'm doing all this without
the verses in front of me so so hopefully you're you're checking on me and making sure I'm at least close
Isaiah's called right he's in the temple God is in the throne his his skirt fills
fills the room the serif the nushan comes forward I think you're right I think that is a representation of Christ
uh I mean that's what Nephi says right it's what Alma says burns his burns his lip and he gets the strangest prophetic
commission ever because he is told to prophesy in a way that people won't
understand that their ears won't hear their heart will be fat so they won't
understand they won't understand they won't repent they won't be healed that is the commission that Isaiah received
now how weird is that but by the way
we see that uh we see that in uh Matthew
13 okay Matthew 133 I forget the verses but it's the middle of the chapter it's like 10
through 17 or something okay Jesus is talking to his disciples and they say
hey why do you speak in Parables and Jesus says uh I speak in Parables
because you your eyes have seen the mysteries of
the kingdom of God there's that word Mysteries again therefore you understand The Parables and you learn but those
people they out there the crowd have not seen the Mysteries and I
speak in a way that you have to have seen the Mysteries to understand what I'm talking about so you so I do that so
you understand and they do not and they do not and then he quotes Isaiah 6 he
quotes that same passage and he now he says Matthew says something like fulfilling the prophecy of Isaiah
Matthew likes to um have these kind of fulfillment formulas that Jesus does a thing or Joseph does a thing and it
fulfills a prophecy right but I think you could also say following the method of Isaiah let me just point out
two real quick Book of Mormon Nephi passages on the same point okay second
Nephi 324 second secondi 324 he's he's winding
up and he has been talking about some kind of a journey that you the reader can be on which involves developing
faith hope and charity and persevering all the way to the end and walking in
yeah walking in the straight and narrow path and doing the things you have seen Jesus do and uh and speaking the tongues
of angels and then in second Nephi 324 he says if you do not understand these
things it will be because you have not asked and knocked
and you have not been brought forward into the light but you stay outside and perish in darkness now let's just think
about this for a second okay let's assume that he's making a metaphor here and and what he really
means is you've got to pray to find an answer even if that's true for him to
make that metaphor he has to assume that to his readers something about standing
in a straight and narrow path asking and knocking and then being admitted into
the light something about that is familiar to them so he can make the metaphor otherwise that doesn't mean
anything sure but I think it's more than a metaphor I think Nephi is literally
saying I am speaking to those of you who have advanced through a straight and
narrow path where you have to ask for admission you have to knock and and if
you are granted admission you're pulled forward from dark dark nness into light and I think this is the same thing he's
talking about in second Nephi 251 where he talks about the way Isaiah prophesies
and how his how Nephi's own children don't understand because they don't understand the manner of prophesying
among the Jews now it's not the manner in which the Jews
prophesy it's the manner of prophesying among the Jews and I think what Nephi
understands is that Isaiah basically took upon himself a kind of a secret
Prophet status where he wrote using Temple imagery so that those who had
ears to hear would understand those who had had the right experiences would recognize his images and and understand
what he was talking about and those who didn't those who hadn't asked knocked and been admitted from Darkness into
light would would not follow it all I think Matthew has Jesus following in
Isaiah's footsteps I think Nephi has himself following in Isaiah's footsteps
and I think this is one of the we're clearly not going to get to talk about the sermon on the mountain stuff today
probably not but I think this is one of the um this is one of the great keys that we
need to be using to try to under unlock the Book of Mormon and move forward is applying a temple understanding to what
yeah see that's what you're saying which is really interesting because it's and and and I believe this full-heartedly
but but it's okay if you've gone through the temple if you've really understood the temple then all of a sudden what
should happen is you should understand the scriptures yeah a in a completely
different way but we don't usually do that we don't understand the the that
these things are the same right these these prophets have gone through the rights they've gone through the temple
they've done these things and so they're writing about them this is their anchor
right that they're that they're using and they're talking about when we have the Visions the Visionary men whether
it's um you know Isaiah in Isaiah 6 or or you've got Lehi in Nephi first Nephi
1 um you've got um John in the Book of Revelation chapter four or five I can't
remember but it's the same thing wherever there's a throne theophany we it is a temple vision and
we need to see that that's what's going on yeah and why is the temple so Central
is you're picking out all of these verses here that you would normally just kind of blow by because you don't
understand it right why are all of these verses right about the temple why why
are they talking about the temple well because then you can have context and an understanding from the
temple knowledge which is what it really tells you in section 84 yep the
knowledge that you g going through the temple and I'm not talking about watching the drama right right it is
through the covenants and the ordinances and everything goes around them that you actually pick up knowledge and that
knowledge can be applied to the scriptures and I think should be I think look not only does does does uh Nephi
say that you know Isaiah's is great prophet and his he'll all be fulfilled we need be paying
attention but Jesus in third Nephi 23 right not a lot of people get a direct
Jesus endorsement uh Isaiah does that's that's
a coveted endorsement uh I I think that's absolutely right and and I think
maybe we'll come back and talk about this another time where people can can look at this on their own but um to give
like a 30,000 foot summary um and this is this is not my
idea um originally this is an Jack Welch wrote a couple books about read that
paper yeah and uh The Sermon on the Mount can be read as an ordinance in
three part Space by which you enter into the presence of God and so one of the
reasons going back to like the the high level questions about the Book of Mormon one of the question is why is the Book
of Mormon always quoting even just like a few words at a time why does it always have Sermon on the Mount imagery why is
second Nephi 4 and second Nephi 2 and second Nephi 9 and Alma 32 and and three
why are they full of the same stuff that's in The Sermon on the Mount well the answer is they're not quoting The Sermon on the Mount they're doing it
they're doing it they know it as an ordinance it's older than Jesus the the Ser Matthew does not say Jesus now made
up this sermon and gave it it says he sat and taught them well it's interesting at the very beginning of
chapter 5 I point this out to people it says this is I'm reading the King James version here it says and seeing the
multitudes he went up into a mountain of course that represents a a temple yeah
setting and then he says and then and then and then Matthew says and when he was set yep his disciples came on what
what do you mean when he was set yeah right what did he put together what what
is going on what are the object you know what did he did he move furniture or bring that with him or objects something
is being set I I like that take yeah if if you if you uh this is probably
another conversation but like if you you know try this experiment someday Get Up In a Pulpit just like when no one's in
the s in the chapel go and stand and just just read The Sermon on the Mount as if you're delivering it as a sermon
it doesn't make any sense as a sermon right but and again it's about three hours to walk two and a half hours to
walk through this um it makes a lot of sense as an ordinance now again there
there if you can see if you can read it in Greek you will see some things that you can't see in English but you can see
most of it in English uh there are three rooms in the temple Ascent there are three three chapters in
in The Sermon on the Mount Nephi quotes it all the time the Matthew 7 the climax
is you ask seek and knock after your last warning about judgment and don't
throw uh don't put Sacred things to before pigs to swine all right you ask
seek and knock uh you pass through a straight and narrow gate and you see a tree with good
fruit NE this is the same thing as when Nephi talks about lehi's dream as
reported by Nephi people coming along a straight and narrow path to a tree with
good fruit right this is this is the Isaiah Temple order the preh Hezekiah
the non deuteronomic order of the temple is that the tree of light and life is in the final room yeah it also
puts it can put this is this puts this uh this verse into into
context a little bit if what we're saying is what it is what you're saying is what it is if you go to verse
15 and in Matthew 5 it says neither do men light a
candle right now A candaleria is a manora yeah neither do men light a
candle and put it under a bushel yeah but on a Candlestick and it giveth light unto all
all that are in the house it's kind of interesting it tells you that manora is coming and it also says you are the
light of the world this is this is the ordinance about becoming those who shine
and Matthew in Matthew 13 and Elma in I think Elma 5 both say the righteous
shine in the kingdom of God this is the ordinance of how you enter the kingdom
of God so here here I want to get back to this I had a I had a couple of discussions with uh Val Larson oh yeah
Val is a big Margaret Barker fan he's a big Dave Butler fan he's read all your
stuff and and and and kind of goes right along with all that and I I addressed this with him but I didn't do it
satisfactorily okay um here's the issue I have with the tree of life being just
ashra okay okay um so in chapter if you go back into
um the ancient near near East and you look at other religions at the time uh you do have a
representation of women with trees I mean in Egyptian uh uh religion when you
die you're going to go right by haor ISIS who's in a tree yep right and
you're GNA pass through there she may offer you something to eat and then you're going to go with an nubis and you're going to go into the underworld
and but when you come back out the other side there's there's a woman with a tree the same thing again right so so that
exists but you also have the king is typically also portrayed as a as a
tree not necessarily other men but the king is represented also as a tree so
you've got really hather IIs who's the mother and then the son would be the King right because the mother is the
throne the mother represents the throne and uh and and and you know and
and the son is sitting in the throne right which is also why you might look
at the Tree of Life possibly being the Throne of God you know and getting getting the Throne of God but in chapter
11 of first Nephi two times the Angelic coost
says do you know the condescension of God and the first time he does that
that's when he goes to Mary right so it's how we usually think of condescension where where you know
basically Jehovah comes down is born of a woman and takes on a moral experience
right but then he says again do you know the condescension of God as if it's not fully
explained and this time he goes to John the Baptist right and and in many ways what
you get there the second time is what we have as another birth
right which is being born again of the water and the spirit and and and so it
it's it's like your wait a minute the condescension of God isn't done yet there's a birth to Mary but then there's
also a a birth to the water now there are Waters there with the tree of life so you can see that as kind of maybe hey
maybe there's something there to that being coupled together but as you go through it it's still to me a uh a
discussion of Christ right and and and and so I I do
think it is the divine feminine I do think that there is you know it's probably Mary as a put in place use as a
placemaker so to say of of a Divine heavenly mother but it I think it just seems to
me like it's both and and I think that the way you describe it is the tree is the mother and the fruit is the
son that's how right yep okay um so that
could be but he does but the Angelic host starts off saying do you understand understand do you believe what your
father said about the tree which is always also just so interesting that he goes right to that right the book of
woman's obsessed with the tree yeah he's obsessed with the tree and and but he's
answering what the tree is and it isn't he giving a narration of of of Christ being born to Mary and then
born of the water the woman is white and beautiful and the tree is white and beautiful true
the the um so there's a whole other complex
of things here that make me think that Christ is the fruit in this Vision I do think the vision is about Christ it is
about Christ in the tree so there's Isaiah 9 okay um is
about conventional commentator Jim Roberts will say well this is like uh
maybe it's about Hezekiah specifically it's about the davidic king uh in Isaiah 9 there are a series of Throne names
um which uh which everyone recognizes because we sing them and handles Messiah
every December wonderful counselor the Mighty God the Everlasting father the Prince of Peace that's what those are
the King James translations of the Hebrew um the Greek has none of those
the Greek says uh he is the it just get one title he is the an earlier version
which which maybe you got the subagent right it was
translated in 300 BC yeah so it was the the argument is that sometimes and this
has been Vindicated like like sometimes so so the famous example is in
Deuteronomy where uh the um Hebrew says
uh God divided the Earth according uh or the Earth was divided according to the sons of Israel and the Greek says it was divided
according to the sons of God God yeah and when the Dead Sea Scrolls version showed up they agreed with the Greek yes
and so it turned out that this had been probably deliberately Changed by later scribes and the reason is the the idea
that the world is divided according to the sons of God expresses an old idea that the rabbis didn't like and the idea
was that every nation had its own Every Nation had a son of God at the head of it like a like a national God like Baal
was a Son of God and Yahweh was a Son of God and who you know Osiris was a Son of God right uh the rabbis really didn't
like that so they changed go you know sons of God to son of Israel but the Greek the point is the Greek was
Vindicated sometimes the Greek holds older readings um we don't know for sure we
have to argue about it so the Greek in this case only has one title for the davidic king or for
Jesus and that is the angel of great counsel okay the messenger of great
counsel now I think that councel eel or i e l eel I think the great Council in
um Isaiah 5 and elsewhere is is the tree now I think about that the angel the
sent one the messenger of the tree is a very interesting way to think about
Jesus whose birth we celebrate under a tree and who died nailed to a tree right
there's that's that's interesting getting getting back to you
touched on this right there's there's showbread Leviticus 24 has showbread in
the temple Aaron and his sons eat the bread of the presence in the temple um there's another reference to
bread in the temple which is uh mana mana is some is uh it's not described as
being bread in the Book of Numbers right it's it literally Mana means what is it
it's it's Whatchamacallit that is by the way white and tastes like honey um but uh I think numers or Exodus
says that there's it is kept in the presence of the Lord in Hebrews 9:3 says it's actually in the ark that a pot of
Mana is kept in the ark okay Jesus refers to the Mana in John 6 as bread he
calls it the Bread of Heaven and then he identifies himself as the Bread of Heaven your fathers ate the Bread of
Heaven I.E mana and died whoever eats me the Bread of Heaven will live forever he Compares himself to Mana
that kind of bread in the heaven uh Leviticus 24 Aaron and his sons um eat
the showbread which by the way is flavored with frankincense which is very interesting so it's like an orange bread
or has an orangey kind of citrusy flavor to it um they do it as a zikaron as a
memorial um offering okay Memorial sacrifice it's not clear what that means
Margaret Barker has argued that that maybe should be read to be something else other than me Memorial because
because the same root can be read to mean something like uh evoke like
summoning okay but I actually think Memorial is probably the right answer is the right understanding because Jesus in
Luke 22 when he's meeting with his disciples in an upper room and by the way here again we have three-part space
we go into an upper room I have a feast with my disciples then we go up to the Mount of Olives where the tree is okay
it's the it's always the same Greg it is always the same in that middle room when
he passes out the bread he says eat this in remembrance of me and I think he uses
the word now of course we had it's it's Greek versus Hebrew uh they're so we
can't know if he's using what exactly he's saying but it seems like he is evoking the uh the the sons of Aaron
eating the bread of the presence and he in the same way he in John 6 says I am
am the Mana I am that bread in the temple he is saying I am the bread of the presence I am that bread in the
temple I am the bread you eat so when you in The Sermon on the Mount hunger and thirst after righteousness you're
led into the second room and you are filled with righteousness because you eat the Flesh and Blood of the Lord
right Jesus is saying I am that bread so so to me what
feels um I don't want to say most correct the thing that resonates for me is the idea
that he is the feast right which makes him the fruit of the tree now these symbols are complex and they are cosmic
and they are multivalent and can they mean multiple things you bet and could a do I think that a prophet might have a
uh two prophets could both be prophets of God and might use the tree imagery in
different ways I absolutely uh think that could be true
so that by way of saying I don't know there has to be a person here who is right and who is wrong I think we're
dealing with very complex powerful symbols um and I think you and I have uh
as far as I can tell vast areas of agreement um and shared curiosity with
maybe like this interesting questions where we might differ interpretation no I've read your stuff I I have I have
said to people that that among all of the Gospel thinkers let's say out there
or L Scholars and even regular Scholars I think that I align more with you than anybody else and and and what is great
about that and I want people to understand this yeah I'm not a scholar a paid scholar you're not a trained
scholar you know nothing exists but it's very interesting to me as I is I've gone
through what you what we talked about at lunch and read your books I have come to
so many of those same conclusions there's something to that you know and it's it's how did I get
there not going through scholarship not being trained or told about these things but I I find it through the scriptures
yeah right and and and yet I read and you you you know I read what what you've said and and of course there's others
that where it's similar to that but it's like that is in many ways it's kind of a
confirmation right of of of one's individual study and I think we all need
to do that yes we don't need to rely on somebody else of course we want to listen to the prophets and the brethren
what they have to say and and their take on the scriptures and and Etc that's that's key but but we need to
individually be get our noses into the scriptures to understand these things
and and I think in the days that we live today I I just you have a tough time if
you don't with your testimony if you are not really rooted in these things I think that is right and I think
that's the religion of the Visionary men right it's small d Democratic God is
everybody's father everybody God will talk to anybody God loves everyone God
loves The Sinner and the saint maybe there are no Saints God loves all of us sinners right uh uh the the way is open
and uh and and salvation is free right and Jesus is the way to uh to enter into
the presence of light and life um and I I do think we're commanded to study and
I this is one of my big frustrations is I I I don't know why I don't know why
this is so hard um but we're struggling yeah yeah I agree well Dave thanks so
much for doing this we will get you back and and go over the sermon of the mount and who knows what else but uh again I
love these discussions uh love what you've studied and learned and the opportunity for you to share that with us so thanks for coming on the show
thanks for having me [Music] Greg
