So, Pope Leo has made some massive changes in the Catholic Church. Here, Bruce Porter and I outline 10 of these
changes and we apply them to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In other words, what would happen if the
church adopted these 10 things that Pope Leo has done with the Catholic Church. Not saying that we should or that we
shouldn't. It's just what would happen. Is it applicable? Is it not applicable? This episode is brought to you by Gospel
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[Music]
Okay, Bruce. So the first of these 10 changes from Pope Leo here who's kind of
been a reformer for the Catholics uh is he made a he created a ban on the
blessing of same-sex unions. This was something that was beginning to occur uh
especially in certainly Germany for especially in certain parts of the world um where there was a blessing giving on
a same-sex union. It wasn't a marriage. you weren't being married in a Catholic church, but there were blessings uh
being given here. What uh what are your thoughts on that? And what
would happen if the church did the same thing, our church?
Well, you know what I think Pope Leo is doing is just making things clear. he understands the scriptures or what he
has interpreted as the um doctrines in the scriptures and he's just making it
clear you know it's he's just saying okay this this is not going to be accepted we're not going to bless these
type of unions uh which maybe not be a marriage but there is blessings involved in that um that you can sometimes have a
priest do or pay pay a priest or something to do but um he's just saying
Okay, this is this is going to stop. This this is not allowed. This is going to stop right now. And so far as us as a
church, you know, um I sometimes wonder if we couldn't be more clear on the
doctrines that we support. We seem to be focusing on principles more than doctrines. And no, principles are good
as long as they help you keep a doctrine. Yeah. there's kind of that balance that
sometimes especially at the lower levels that that leaders seem to make and that is well
I'm trying to be kind about this um so I'm going to have give some give give I'm going to give a little here uh
and that giving basically is not stating clarity right like you're saying right and and and if
you're holding back on that because you're afraid you're going to offend you might be a afraid of the repercussions
and you might feel that it is the nice thing to do. But the problem is is that
is is the confusion that is given in those circumstances,
right? And I think I think that's what we got to overcome is the confusion. You know, when God placed Adam and Eve in
the Garden of Eden, he didn't say he didn't say don't partake of this fruit. And then when Adam does, he didn't say,
"Okay, I'll give you one more chance or I'm going to kind of ignore it this time." It was when he ptook the
consequences followed. And the clarity was there. The clarity is do this or
don't do this. And this is what's going to happen if you do. And and I think like you're saying that we we don't want
to offend anybody. So let's not teach solid doctrine. Let's let's talk about principles. Love everybody. Well, as
soon as you say we should love everybody, there goes there goes the doctrines and and the and the clarity of
what laws we should keep if we love everybody. You know, it's it's kind of like the rule of law. If you're if you
don't if you don't if there's not a consequence for the rule of law, then laws are nothing more than suggestions.
Yeah, I love that. I love that statement. And it it's also seems to me that, you know, it's a
it it's it's a reversal and a swapping of the first and second great
commandments. Right. Right. And it's saying, "Okay, well, I we're going to we're going to love our
neighbor." And of course, the definition there of love would be have to be corrupted, too. But we're going to love our neighbor and and and we'll get to
God here somewhere else. Yeah. Um I was I was in a uh Sunday school
class from someone I really respect, really uh great guy. Um
and I was shocked at it was on the plan of salvation and it was
There was a to me there was a real lack of clarity in what was given there because it was the the primary focus of
the of the lesson was there is no hell and as you see the great the greatest
the great gift of the atonement is that we'll all be saved in one of these glories
right and and so it's like okay well you're holding back somewhere
right you're holding back somewhere here on what the ideal is in order to help
people feel better. That's what it seemed like to me. Yeah. Do you see that out there as well? Oh, I I do. I just I got a I got an
email this week that had a person's lesson from from back east had a person's lesson that he's giving almost
like an institute class uh for a stake. And in that he's saying the same thing
that God's going to save everybody. God's work and glory will not be frustrated. And his work and glory is
our exaltation. Therefore, our exaltation is basically guaranteed by God whether we like it or not. And that
our agency and character has really nothing to do with it because it's God's work and that won't be frustrated. And
that's that's a real movement within the church. You, you know, Christ said, "If you love me," which is here's your first
commandment again. If you love me, keep my commandments. So, that's the first love of God. If you
love me, keep my commandments. and then love our fellow man after that.
Yeah. And I think that's there specifically and and clearly by the authors of the gospels. I think it's I
I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure every gospel has that. Yes. In in there. Um
and wouldn't it be seen also I mean if if the clarity isn't there and this
these movements continue to grow within the church, isn't it doesn't it become
harder and harder to pull it back? Doesn't it become harder and harder to to to give the clarity without real
strong reaction because it's been accepted and tolerated and advocated for
so much more. It is, you know, the old cliche, you know, you give them an inch and they
take a mile. Um, and maybe within the church it's you you you
show that acceptance and you show that inch that you're giving them and they want a mile. They expect a mile.
You know, if they say, "Okay, we're going to we're going to um we're going to accept this type of lifestyle. We're
going to accept that." Then that means that the whole church or at least in their minds, it means that the whole
church is going to accept that. That's why there's that's why there's confusion rather than clarity. Clarity is just
saying, okay, here is the doctrine. Here are the scriptures that describe the doctrine and then here are the laws that
we as a church are going to abide by. If if a religion is not founded on an unchangeable doctrine, it's not a
religion. It can't be as a religion. If it's going to change with every whim or
wish or petition or vote or vigil, it's not a religion.
The second uh big change that Pope Leo made was that he suspended leaders that
supported LGBTQ lifestyles. And to be clear on this again, this is not people that even identify as a certain
sexuality or anything else, but those that do support the lifestyle of of LGBTQ
and and they're they're suspended, right? Um would that be too harsh within
our church if that was the case? I mean, I've seen bishops with a pride lapel,
you know, pen on the on their that they wear up on the stand. I've seen I I I
don't, you know, I don't know what the right answer to all of that is. I don't pretend to know,
but if you've got local leaders that are to the point of advocating for these
movements, what do you do? And that's a good question. And that's
it's a good thing that I don't have to make those kind of decisions, you know, for these leaders. But but you know, it comes down to the
to the statement I've made before that if you don't you can't believe in a god that you don't believe. And if God says
that we shouldn't be doing something, we can't we don't believe in a god. And that's kind of what Pope Leo is saying here. If you're supporting something
beyond what the scriptures are demanding as commandments and and lifestyles,
then you're not believing in the God of the scriptures himself. So, it's a good
question. What do we do with leaders that do support that? Um, and that's that's for somebody that's for leaders
with keys to make that decision. But as soon as we get that support, then what are the what are the youth what are
the youth seeing when their bishop supports that or their leaders are supporting what are what what what's the youth learning from
that? Are they coming away saying well that's all right. I can believe in that because my my leaders do and they just
and my parents are just behind the times. Exactly. Exactly. Parents are behind the
times because my bishop knows what's going on. Yeah. So it's it's a I think it can be a real problem if the clarity is not there
and if if the support if the support of that clarity within the leadership isn't
there then the spiritual entropy is just going to is going to triple in it in its
speed. Yeah. I I had read some of the responses to this change uh by Catholics
and clergy on this and there was there was support on both you know there's support on both sides of this both
against it and and supporting the suspension of of these leaders. But uh
one thing that a number of of of maybe the more conservative clergy had said
was that they had noted confusion that was going on at the time before
this. There were they had noted confusion over, you know, a line between
what is pastoral care and and to to one degree and then even public endorsement,
right? Right. It's like you're saying about the kid, the youth and and they're seeing that is that absolute public
endorsement to them and to other church members, you know, when when there isn't
something clear, etc. There because it's easy to go from, well, they haven't
really said much about this and so I'm not going to make a determination to, well, if they don't say anything, are
are they supporting it? Yeah, I I think that's exactly right because the confusion exists because of that. It's
um you know I see a big problem in the future because as soon as the leader supports it or parents even support it,
the child or the youth will feel justified in their support and their acceptance of the very same thing. It's,
you know, we don't, especially with this uh this lifestyle issue, this LGBTQ
um we don't often connect it with adultery, but in the scriptures, anytime anytime
these types of relationships, homosexual relationships and things are brought up in the scripture, it's always in the
same it's always within that context. Adultery and fornic and and fornication
is brought up at the same time in the same passages whether it's in Romans or or in in Leviticus wherever it might be.
It's always brought up and we don't think about that is if we're going to be accepting of one the bishop that wears
the the support pin for the gay and lesbian community. Can he also r wear
the scarlet letter A in support of the of the adulterous community? a parent
that wants to accept that wants the church to accept a child uh that's living this uh this gay or lesbian
lifestyle. Are they willing to demand that the church accept that uh uh their
adulterous spouse? You know, it's we you can't you can't if
if you're going to accept one, you have to accept it all. Well, and that's something interesting. You know, it's it's you know, cuz I'
I've seen a number of these talks in these groups. Uh I've seen a number of
these fire sides, unfortunately, youth fire sides, where where it is the
discussion is what is it like to be gay in the in in the church. And
the the interesting thing that never comes up, it never comes up. And it doesn't come up by the leaders either
is the the parameters of
the law of chastity, right? No one says a word about it. It's just
all love and support. Love and support. Okay, great. Love everyone. Uh even the
adulterer. We're going to love the adulterer. But like you said, to put a scarlet letter on an A up on the stand
or something would be ridiculous. Exactly. And and and so it's it's just are aren't
we told to bridle our passions? Aren't we told, you know, that there are there are laws, sexual laws,
uh that we're given to follow as commandments? But I don't know. It's
just it's not odd. I say it's odd. It's not odd. These qualifiers are never mentioned along with these
topics, right? We there's so many people that want to believe and this comes back to
God is going to save everyone. There's so many people that believe in this or
have this idea that the love of God is going to save them no matter who they are or what they've done. They expect to
be saved in their sins rather than from their sins.
And and you know, and I'm not saying what is or what isn't a sin, but the scriptures imply that the scriptures
tell us the character that we ought ought to have. This the scriptures tell us, I mean, the very foundation of our
doctrine and belief is exaltation. And the scriptures tell us that exaltation is man and a woman. And do
you think God's going to change exaltation just because we have a lifestyle tendency? is doesn't everyone
have some type of of of cross to bear or carry or weakness that we have to
overcome whether we like it or not and we do but to God is not going to
save us in our sins the whole atonement is to save us from our sins because
we're to exercise that faith in that atonement unto repentance which is unto
the change of character um to to reach that goal of exaltation which has certain parameters and as
section 131 vers4 says if they don't do it there will be no increase there will
be no exaltation all anyone needs to do and this is all over the scriptures it's everywhere but
if you just start with second Nephi 28 there's very very very clear as they're
leading up to the doctrine of Christ there uh the third the third change doesn't apply to us a whole lot right
this is the annual declaration of celibacy. Right now, fortunately, that's not what
our leaders are required to do. And I don't know a lot about the history of the Catholic Church and why this
started, but uh it's not something that really affects us, right?
Well, it it doesn't, you know, celibacy doesn't, you know, there's there's the old celebrate. There's the old um
uh the old joke about the about the priest who actually got into the old documents and it said it says celebrate,
not celebrate. So, um but
but what they're doing the declaration is a declaration of of their commitment.
And we have I mean we have temple recommends that many of these leaders like you just mentioned the bishop
wearing the the lapel pin. Uh we have a temple recommend that is basically
saying are you living up to the standards? Are you keeping the doctrines? Or do you or do you support
an organization or or a a program or a platform that is contrary to the
doctrines of the church and in my opinion supporting the gay and
lesbian movement is that very thing that you can't you can't answer correctly for
that for that recommend. And so uh even though this declaration of celibacy but
it should it is a we there should be a declaration of commitment to scripture and doctrine.
The fourth thing he did and this is a problem that's in every church but the Catholics have really been highlighted on this was that he he publicly he he
supported the public naming and excommunication of all abusers right physical abusers.
um pretty much universally praised especially by obviously the victims and their families and advoc advocacy groups
around them. Um it was a move a much stronger move toward what people would
call or have called transparency and justice. Um
there were some people on this in their response who expressed some concern about the due
process and the definition of guilt. Right. So, it's we go through the same type of thing. For example, if you've
got someone that is accused of abuse or even adultery uh within the church,
um you're going to lose some privileges. And you may not have gone through a
court of law yet. You may not have done gotten due process yet in the legal system, but you're probably going to
lose privileges in in that case. Yeah, I would I would agree with that. I
mean, you know, I can remember years and years ago when when there was an excommunication, they would have the,
you know, the priesthood would come together and the youth would leave and they would exact, you know, tell you what happened and and what should be
happening in regard to a person. They don't do that anymore. Not doesn't bother me that they do or don't, but but
um there do there does there needs to be some type of responsibility
um both with with the church as well as with the civil authorities. A lot of times now I know that there are cases
where the church will do nothing until the civil authorities make a determination. So you know if a person
denies it has to go through the court system and the civil system before the church will even you know step up you
know in case there is um something wrong or not wrong uh in that event. it. But I
think that I think the Catholic Church in in making this a little more transparent is a good thing and and I
think it should be for the benefit of the community of the believing community. Well, for the credibility
as well, right? I mean, it just offers credibility for everyone apart from just having the justice and
being the right thing. It it just offers more credibility to that they're actually doing something,
you know, strongly uh about this and and taking care of this, right? Uh number five on this is there's a ban
on digital confession. So they've been opening this up for a while where you can long
I don't know what I think about this but it's it's you know from long distance you can confess through a screen a a
literal screen a digital screen instead of a physical screen uh to your priest
and and and confess things and they've taken that away. Um, I think there's so many positives to
a digital revolution and to technology, but there are certainly a lot of
negatives, maybe as many or more negatives to the
the advancement really all it is is the advancement of convenience. Yeah. Well, I would I would agree. you
know, this, you know, h how great how how easy would it be to confess to the bishop if you just had to send him, you
know, if it was digital or there's a or there's a program or a button to push, you know, I've I I've
sinned, you know, there you go. But but uh you know, confession is confession
actually means in the New Testament when it talks about confessing your sins, it actually means to agree.
It means it means that you come in and confess and the bishop agrees that that's either wrong or not or or not
wrong and the bishop's there to assist you or to help you. And that really requires a personal relationship
uh to to receive and participate in that help that the bishop's there to give.
And boy, you know, and um sometimes the spirit works when the people are
together more so than online. And I don't I don't know that there's a a definite online tab for, you know,
here's the spirit, here isn't the spirit. But the spirit works generally when people are together. That's we see
this even in the New Testament when Christ is with a group of people. Uh it
says while he's there, not while he's away from them, but when he's there in their presence, he says and he perceived
their thoughts. They begin to understand because they're in personal contact. And I think that's
a good thing. And like you say, the digital world has some great things and there are some some things that are not
quite as good as they could be. Yeah. Number six is they are selling some of
the stored assets for humanitarian aid. Um some of their treasures so to speak.
Uh obviously I think this is a positive. I don't know exactly what treasures they all are. I wish that they had a Vatican
museum that showed absolutely everything they had. Everything they had
was brought out into a Vatican museum so we could see everything. I don't know if they would want that, but uh um they've
got an awful lot that they they could probably sell off that is not necessarily pertinent to the history of
Christianity. So um that seems like a positive to me. Oh, I think it is. I think it is. I was
I worked in the Vatican library in the museum u a number of years ago and you
know one of the statements of the librarian was we are we're we're collectors of his history history not
displayers of history when questioned about some of the paintings they had you know well we don't display it we just collect it
and and you know it's what's the purpose of that you know that's a good question if
you're not going to display it what's the purpose unless unless the the display is embarrassing
Unless there's something you don't want people to know about and then you're trying to hide it or you know in the
records that they have and the documents that they have there in the Vatican. But is what the pope is doing is saying okay
these things these things can be these treasures can be sold for the better betterment of mankind you know and does
that have a relationship to us as a church? It might do. I don't know what the holdings are. It's not my position
or my worry about it, but uh is what the pope was saying that um that giving is
probably more important than hoarding. Yes, I for sure definitely. Uh number
seven here is a ban on leaders living in luxury. This is really interesting,
right? This is uh because this is universal. Oh yeah. In all churches everywhere and in
society. And so it's, you know, you you kind of have, this seems like a very almost like a populist move. Um,
I know that the response on this has been very positive. Uh, of course the responders are not the
ones with in necessarily they're the the luxurious leaders, so to speak. But, uh,
you know, you look at that and you say, well, how would that apply to our church? How would that apply to our leaders? We have a tendency and I'm not
criticizing it's probably right. I'm just saying that this is the way it is. Is we have a tendency to move people
through the uh what will we call it the the priesthood hierarchal structure based on
success. And and and that's not necessarily okay well that's just economic but it is typically okay this
person has high capacity. They're intelligent. they can lead, they can get things done and so maybe they would be a
good bishop so to speak, right? Um, but that is in the US especially that is
very heavy on that end. I I often ask people where is our
where are who who is our bluecollar apostle that we've hired, you know, who's the guy that started out
as a plumber and built a large business because he follows good principles. you
know, and it's very much a managerial type of uh leadership, but that's that's
this is a tough deal. You're going to get this is very courageous of Pope Leo here because you're going to get a
strong response, I think, from these leaders. Oh, and without without question, you know, we have a almost
everybody, especially in the church, has a tendency to think that that u the
riches that a person has is a determination of the righteousness.
That God blesses the righteous with riches. But God, we don't understand that God's not going to I mean, the
blessings that you have, God's promised that he'll give you what you need and he'll bless you what you need. But beyond that, that's your own your own
valition. That's what you're doing with your own mind and things. And we and we have a tendency to immediately associate
blessings with righteousness. Uh but that's not the case. That's not
it in scripture at all. But uh and that's what the pope is doing here because uh the leaders that they had
that that did have wealth um he's just saying, "Well, we can't we
we need to be with the people and like the people." Now I understand why the church uses people who've been
successful. You know 100 years ago, 150 years ago, maybe even less than that. Uh
almost all the bishops were farmers. Now they're all attorneys and doctors,
you know, or whatever you however you want to look at it. But I can understand why that might be because they think
well or the idea is they have money so they have more time to serve. they have
the the time that they can serve because they don't have to work so hard for to sustain themselves and their family. And
so that's one reason they look at it. But but actually it's it's more management like you just mentioned.
There's a lot of management involved in uh in in that. And that requires some uh
some people to be called because they are good managers. You leaders aren't called because they know more about the
scriptures or that they have a better understanding of doctrine. Most leaders are called because there's work to do
and they can depend on those people to do that work. It's it's management um more so than it is almost leadership.
Interesting. Very interesting statement. Uh number eight is they they uh included
voting rights for women in their councils. Now, we don't typically have a vote outside of disciplinary councils
that uh uh would be on the priesthood side, but we do have women that have a
voice in things. Now, some women might say, "Well, we don't have the voice though in in certain things uh because
of priesthood callings, etc." Um, and we've gone back. I remember when I was a
kid, this is a age as me. I remember when I was a kid, women did not pray in sacrament meeting even, right?
We were still under the the the the
rules of Paul, so to speak, at the time. And uh so there's been a lot of change,
you know, in my lifetime on on that and a lot more women speaking in general conference, etc., which I think is
great. I happen to think that it's a great thing that women are involved in those councils because you get a different perspective that you're not
normally going to get uh etc. And I think it's good for those women. I think
it's good for them to be involved and to help make decisions and it's it's good for them in their progress and being
mothers and wives and everything else. So, I think that that's a real positive. Of course, uh on one end of the
spectrum, you've got the feminists in the in the Catholic Church that are think saying this is great. And of
course, give an inch, take a mile. And some of them are even stating, okay, now we're going to be in a position where
soon we'll be in the priesthood, right? But uh uh there are traditionalists that
have criticized this also as uh it's a uh the creeping Protestantism is what
one person said, right? Or or as some type of a slippery slope, which is kind of going down the same road there. Uh
how does this fit in with our culture today? And is this a positive that you
know even though we may spiral down toward Babylon, is this a positive that has come up in the in the last number of
years where we're involving women more? You know, I think women need to be involved. They are involved when you get
into your word councils and things like that. You know, you have your relief society and primary and young women's
who have a voice in those word councils. And that's really what it's talking about here. um these nods and things
like that where women have a who are involved in that have a voice and we do that in our ward councils and even in
our state councils when the when the stake relief society president or stake young women's or um presidents there too
they they have they do have a voice um I think one thing that we have to understand and I think part of what this
is is that for a leader to make a decision a leader needs to have as many
opinions as possible. He needs to have as many uh views, points of views as
possible in order to make a determination. That was the original me uh purpose of the high council. The high
council was to give the the leadership even at the time, you know, at the time of Joseph even later on. Um the high
council was to give their opinion on certain situations or certain things that um that the state presidency had to
make a decision on so they could get multiple views so that they could make the right decision. And that's kind of
we've kind of lost that a little bit. You know, high councilmen are now the high council is not used as much as for
information for to make a decision as much as they are used as messengers to
war and from whatever the state leaders decide. But the council and using the council of of priesthood leaders, high
councils as well as others and the ward and state councils that include the women, I think are extremely important
when it comes uh when there's a decision that needs to be made that affects men
and women. You know, priesthood is one thing, but decisions that are going to affect men and women, women ought to
have a voice on that or in that if it's something that's going to affect the
young women or the or the relief society. And I think it's good. And we do that. We do that already in our
warden state councils. Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. Right. Number nine is something that they seem to be
adopting more of a a uh Latterday Saint position on this and that is that they
have what has been called a limited welcome to LGBTQ members back to mass
for example. And when I say limited, what they're meaning is is that they do not hold leadership positions and and
they do not preach, right? But they want them there at mass. they want them coming and attending church, which is
very similar to our approach on this. Um, there are some really gray areas
here that have happened in the church where you see uh married gay couples
that are actually holding callings. Um, and uh maybe even in positions of
preaching. Um but uh that they're kind of adopting
a little bit more of a Latter-day Saint perspective on this is look we it's like it's like God's invitation, right?
There's an invitation to everyone. There's an invitation to everyone, but
here's what I expect right in that. And so when I say LGBTQ members, I'm talking about those that are living an LGBTQ
lifestyle is is what they're they're talking about here in this limited welcome. But I
think it's a good move. Yeah, I think participation anybody participation is good in any kind of
spiritual uh environment. The participation is good. I think what it boils down to is that participation are
they are they trying to change? Do they want to change? You know, if you know you're doing something wrong, you know,
and everybody ought to be welcome everywhere, anywhere. I mean, they ought to be welcome, but but the real the real
activity of membership is changing. We talk about the sacrament all the time and partaking of the sacrament
unworthily. And we've used that sacrament. We've used the sacrament almost as a punishment when somebody
sins. But when somebody confesses to the bishop and wants to change, the person who ought to be taking that sacrament is
the one who wants to change because the sacrament is a covenant of obedience.
It's wanting to keep the commandments. And what who better to take the sacrament than the person who wants to
change that's done something wrong? And in my the way I understand the scripture
that talks about partaking of the sacrament unworthily would be partaking of the sacrament and not wanting to
change because the sacrament is for those who do want to change.
And somebody who partakes of the sacrament not caring about changing or not wanting to change. And I think
that's connected even even to this uh statement here. They ought to be welcome. They can be welcome. But really
the church is there to assist people in developing the character that's worthy to dwell with God. That's why the church
exists. And so everyone should come that is is moving towards that direction.
Yeah. And again unfortunately what what happens is is you you do that and you open that up and and we should we need
to we we do do that but um there's still just this push back, you know. It's it's
Yeah. But uh we want more tolerance. We want more acceptance. It's like saying
we need women in the priesthood. Um it's the same idea of
you're you're holding back cultural evolution here. You're holding back the
you're holding back progress uh w within the church. And I see that
constantly. It it's well, you welcome them in, but you don't really welcome them, you know, because
you're not accepting them. You're not tolerating this and and and you're not advocating for who they are. Aren't they
children of God also? You know, and it's tough. I mean, that's a battle out
there. It is. And and I think until that first one that we talked about, until the clarity is there,
it's always going to be tough. until there's until there's some definite clarity that's talked about and and
what's right and what's wrong, black and white. You know, principles are good and is what we are doing is living in a
principle-based environment. Let's love everybody. Therefore, we have to accept
everybody and what they're doing. And that's not the case. You know, God didn't tell Adam and Eve, "Okay, I'll
give you one more chance or wait till your mother gets home or anything like that." They parttook of the fruit and
the consequence was there and and it was very clear and very understandable and it and the Book of Mormon is that way
too. The Book of Mormon could not be clear uh on on on the doctrines that we need
to be believing in. And to think that the church needs to be progressive. We need to we need to come up move up to
the times is is is like saying well God really didn't have a a fornowledge. He
he really is not God because he he didn't really understand. The scriptures were written at a time when people
needed to be that way, but we don't need to be that way now. God's not up with the times. But in my opinion, what God
gave us anciently is just as real and true and right today
as it was anciently. And he's he's given us those scriptures so that we can be worthy to dwell with him. And that
doesn't change because no unclean thing can dwell with God. And God cannot deny himself. And mercy cannot rob justice
whether we like it or not. Key phrase key key phrase in scripture right there. You just mercy cannot rob
justice. People I think believe it can. Yeah. Yeah. And um it cannot cannot. It's it's
there's a there's a way around it. There's a way around it, but it's it's
through Christ and repentance. Exactly. And that's it.
So anyway, all right. Number 10 here is really interesting to me. I don't quite get what he's getting at here, but he's
he's a refusal to wear some of the symbols of authority. For example, the papal ring, what they they call the fisherman's ring, right? Which which uh
uhh symbolizes papal authority. Um I I you know, I I don't know. I mean, I
I get to some degree um some of the things that he said here. He's like I
this is does it ingrandise him as the pope in their as their authority in the
Catholic Church by doing these things. Uh but I'm you know I'm
I think if we understand hierarchy spiritual hierarchy per you know properly
and we understand the role of the priesthood the role of the priesthood is service. It is not receiving praise,
right? It's service and love to your fellow man and to God. And and so to me,
the more you have the the let's call it higher up you are
in the hierarchal structure of the priesthood within our church, the more mantle you have to
uh increase the love that you have for your fellow man and for God and for the
capacity to serve those around you. This is what King Benjamin taught, right? It's this is this was his
message. um what you know and I think about also the thing that first thing
that came to my mind with this was and maybe I'm out of context on this but uh
with with what Pope Leo is doing here but the first thing I thought about is well in our sacrament meetings you're
going to give the sacrament to the to the highest authority priesthood authority that is in attendance there in
in in in the congregation and there's a reason for that I mean they did that anciently I mean you gave it to the
priest first who was you know usually is offering the sacrifice and and they ate first. And
you know, it just shows something of respect, but also who's in charge, who's
got the mantle, and who do you look to in this meeting, right? Does that make sense?
It does. And I, you know, I've I've thought of that often. You know, we don't know in scripture, but when Christ
blessed the bread at that last what we call the last supper, I don't I can't I don't ever remember
reading anywhere where he ate it first and then passed it. True. You know, he he ate it and passed. He
said, "He that is greatest among you is the servant of all." And and in that same in that same
context or in that at that same time, he's down on the floor washing the feet of the apostles. Um, and so it's it's
it's an interesting thing, you know, that everyone's supposed to kiss when they come to the Pope. They're supposed to kiss that pack ring. Well, he's not
wearing a ring, so what are they doing? You know, it's um, Brother Nibbly, he nibbly once told me one time, he says,
"In the kingdom, there is no rank. There is only a difference in
responsibility." Which means that your position in the church has no more guarantee on your
salvation or exaltation than having no position in the church. There's no rank in the church at all. No, there no
there's no rank that guarantees uh a greater salvation or greater exaltation. There's only
responsibilities and the responsibilities you can be obedient to your responsibility as the himynel
passer outer uh the same which same obedience uh would exalt you as the
person who is the state president or general authority because there's no rank in the kingdom just different
responsibilities and I think that's kind of what he's getting at here that you know his responsibility is to serve
other people which is our responsibility too. So let's finish up with this question
then going through some of these especially some of these what would happen within the church if a number of
these things were implemented you know that's a good question I think
you know what happened in the Catholic church when they did this they saw an increase of membership
they saw an increase of of confessions uh they even mentioned about how they
were lined up that they had never been that way before and I think that's because of the clarity you know it
that's because they understood um uh what they were supposed to do and what
they should do and they recognized that the church was among them instead of above them and we kind of you know the
church has made a lot of movements that way you know there's there's no more high priest quorm you know you don't
have to be a high priest everybody's an elder you know and so the general authorities we call elders you know I've
I've often wondered, should I throw my uh uh my line of authority away? You
know, who ordained me a high priest? Should I throw that away? Because, you know, it's not it's not the office,
it's the priesthood. And the priesthood is Mazdc. And it's not the office in the priesthood. And the priesthood doesn't
honor the man. The man honors the priesthood is is really the technical term. And I think that's what he's
saying there on that last thing. You know, it's not the priesthood that honors him, but he honors the
responsibility that's there. What would happen in the church? There'd be a lot of people mad if if they just came if
the church came out and said, "Okay, if you're supporting this, if you're supporting this type of lifestyle, then
you're not going to get that recommend that asks and that questions you if you
uh if if you support something that's contrary to the beliefs and doctrines of the church, what would happen? You know,
people might get mad, but people other, you know, they might understand where they need to be and where they need to
stand and what they need to believe in because the clarity is what's needed. The clarity of belief is what's needed.
So, I think it would uh I think it would upset a lot of people and I think it make a lot of people happy. But I think
it might, you know, I think that a lot of people come to our church, the converts come because there is clarity
in the doctrine in the Book of Mormon. And I think that's one reason that a lot of people come.
Yeah, I think uh it does seem to me like we have
gone into a position where these things are a little more loose, right? It's there there seems to be a strategy
behind it to me. It seems to me or maybe it is that there is just so much more
information out there that we are bombarded with often times which goes
against what the doctrine is that if our voice on those things of
doctrine hasn't elevated and doesn't come from more sources
then then we kind of get drowned out a little bit right and from from the other
voices that are out there. Of course, if you're reading your scriptures every day, you've probably got a pretty good voice on a regular basis telling you
what the doctrine is. But that's uh that's a tough
that's that's a a a tough objective to get for the entire group of people in
the church. It is, you know, the church, if the church isn't going opposite of
the world, then we're going to the destination is the same for the members.
If we're not doing opposite, if the world says we should be living this way and we should be accepting of this, if
that's the world view, then we ought to be going the the opposite direction because we're
supposed we're not we're supposed to be in the world but not of the world. And it's what so many people are trying to
say. We need to be not only in the world but we need to be of the world. And
God's response is you need to be opposite of that world.
Let me finish with this question. This is a little more direct and but but I'm going to soften it a little bit by where
I'm targeting it. But what as members of the church
are are are we more afraid of offending Babylon or of dividing the church?
Yeah, that's I mean that's a great question. Um I'm more offending I'm I'm more afraid of offending God.
You know, uh we're told to come out of Babylon over and over again in the scriptures. Babylon is spiritual
wickedness, which this is what we've been talking about. Babylon is spiritual wickedness. We're told over and over
again to come out of Babylon, to leave Babylon. You know, popularity is not God's way.
You know, if we want to be popular, then we have to accept the world, embrace the world, and go towards Babylon. We have
to And a lot of people think they can have one foot in Babylon and one foot in in in Zion. And that's not the case.
That's what the Lord's talking about when he talked about the Leodysa in the book of Revelations. You know, I would
that you were hot or cold, one or the other. But because you're trying to be in both camps in Babylon and in Zion, I
will I will spew you out of my mouth. It's better that you be one or the other. But but to try and embrace the
world and think you're righteous in embracing the church at the same time, the Lord says that's that's when that's
when you will not be with me. Yeah. So it's a good question. That question it's a hard question. It's a tough
question because a lot of people will say, "Well, Zion to be built needs to be of one
heart and one mind. Therefore, we need to allow other things in." Yeah. So that we can all agree and and and
support each other in whatever our lifestyle is or whatever we choose to do. And that's Zion. That's more an idea
of Zion and love, right? That's that's that's the battleground to me right
there is is what is love really and and
uh the the the difference between an invitation to everyone
and a narrow path. Yeah. That needs to be followed. A straight and narrow path. You know, if
we know what the work and glory of God is, and that's the exaltation of man and man and a man and a woman together is is
what exaltation is all about according to the Doctrine Covenants. And that the earth was created. It even says in
section 49, I think it is verse uh 15 16 it'd be verse 16. It says that that the
earth was created that a man and a woman are to be married. A man shall cleave
unto his wife. A man shall have only one wife. And the twain become one flesh. All this that the earth might answer the
ends of its creation. That's why the earth was created so that a so that a
man and a woman could get married so that they could be exalted because that's a requirement for exaltation. If that's the work and glory of God, then
we have to ask ourselves, what does it mean to have an eye single to the glory of God? Are we willing to stand up for
that work and glory? stand up for the doctrines that will accomplish that work in glory. Even though we think we should
love and we should love everybody. We should accept everybody, but but we
have to stand true. It's it's God that I don't want to offend. It's not I don't care about the world or
anybody else. It's God that I don't want to offend. All right, Bruce. Appreciate it. You're
clear. You're offer clarity. Appreciate that. Thank you so much, Greg.
