Jew and Palestinian - Is This A Land Dispute Or A Holy War?

Only a portion of this interview was previously uploaded due to a corrupt file. That episode has been removed. This is the full version.

Jason Olson, a Jewish convert, and Jabra Ghneim, a Palestinian convert, discuss from their own backgrounds and perspectives the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians.

How much of this conflict is a land dispute and how much of this is a religious/ideological war?
What exactly is Zionism?
What is the separation, if any, between Hamas and the Palestinian people?
Do the Palestinians need a new approach?

I'm very excited about this interview with Jewish convert Jason Olen and Palestinian convert Jabra ganame they
will each be giving their perspectives on the Israeli Palestinian conflict with a Latter-Day Saint angle you're going to
learn a lot in this interview before we get started I want to talk about our sponsor scripture notes this is the
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all right welcome to Quick show my name is Greg Matson and I am your host in this episode we have Jabra ganame and
Jason Olen a an LDS Palestinian and an LDS Jew that are going to discuss uh
maybe a little debate maybe a little uh commonality on the Israeli Palestinian
Palestinian uh conflict that we are all paying very close attention to Jabra
Jason welcome to the show thank you thank you I'd like each of you to introduce yourself a little bit just
very briefly give a little bit of background on where you're coming from here so that as we listen to what you
have to say we have an understanding of kind of the sourcing of this jobra will you start little background on yourself
sure so yeah Greg thank you again for having me here so I'm basically a member
of the church um Arab I'm Palestinian I'm What's called the diaspora Palestinian I grew up outside of
Palestine I grew up in Kuwait my father lefted there in 59 hoping to save some
money and then get back to be Jala which is our hometown and of course the six
the sixth day war happened and he couldn't get back so I ended up being born in Kuwait and grew up in Kuwait in
86 we left Kuwait and went to Jordan to I I went to Jordan to get my college
degree and there I met the church it wasn't recognized in Jordan and in ' 89
I met the church in 88 but I couldn't get baptized until 1990 when the church
was recognized and it was we we were allowed to baptize Christians if they
asked to join the church I was the first Jordanian you know to join the church in
Jordan when that happened and we baptized there I later came to be Wu did
my Master's Degree and went back to the Middle East and worked for the church as
a translator and interpreter and I did other things in media there but mainly
translating for the church until September 11th happened and my wife
who's from Utah um you know we just the economy
tanked and we didn't feel safe and we knew War would happen so went came back to Utah and I've been here since then so
currently I own a business Ser uh language services company in Utah I cater to the government and Military and
also to the church where I still translate and interpret scripture unscript material and um I'm sort of
like right now my role is like the managing editor of church translations
okay I heard something about that so just real quick so are you working on is there already or are you working on an
Arabic version of The Book of Mormon I retranslated it we had a translation
since the 70s but back in 2012 Elder Holland approved a
retranslation so I R-rated it and it's being released gradually in the website
because you know it has to go through a an ecclesiastical review process so a
bunch of people would you know I get I gave the translation to the church and then a bunch of people in the area read
the translation make changes so that it suits everyone there so right now the
church has just released the whole book of Alma so you can find it on the Arabic app and
hopefully by the end of 2024 or sometime in 2024 they'll finish releasing the
whole thing and then I translated also retranslated the doctrine covenants
which will have to go through a similar process so yeah that's a that's a weighty response ibility how do you feel
about the translation Jabra well uh yeah that's a good question so you
know the old translation was was really was was great it was an artistic it's it
was a piece of literature but it wasn't faithful to the English Book of Mormon
so I'm very proud that I managed to translate it retranslate it in a modern
language that Arabs across the whole Spectrum of the Arab world can
understand because you know we have different dialects and even though we use Modern Standard Arabic the sense we
have for Words differs across dialects so it's sort of you have to negotiate
between 17 dialects to get to that one Modern Standard Arabic that everyone
would appreciate and understand so here's a quick question then on this so you know the Book of Mormon is basically
written in something similar to what we would call Jacobian English yes version that's 400 years old
the Arabic version that you're writing that's it's going to be a more modern language yes it's well okay so that's
another good question so what we did what the church asked us to do both me
and the ecclesiastical Review Committee is to make sure that the language is understandable and is accessible by the
modern audiences but you also stick to that Jacobian Spirit whenever possible
so we followed a style of translation called modified literal translation so
it's literal mostly but you modify it if you know you get stuck in difficult
language okay so yeah but that that I can go on and on about that but that's
the gist of it another time that but that's fascinating Jason can you give us a quick background on yourself sure
thank you than you Greg thank you Jabra I'm just so grateful to be with both of you um I I'm not uh speaking on behalf
of the United States or on behalf of the Church of Jesus Christ latterday Saints but uh I am uh a Jewish convert to the
Church of Jesus Christ the latterday Saints I was uh I'm I'm a diaspora Jew
as JRA said in uh as he's a diaspora Palestinian um I was born and raised in
Arizona and uh grew up there um was raised in Reform
Judaism uh a more liberal Progressive branch of of Judaism which uh has um
influenced My Views about Judaism the Jewish people uh in the Arab Arab
Palestinian Israeli conflict um when I was uh 18 I joined the Church of Jesus
Christ of latterday saints but uh I my Jewish identity
continued to press upon me and persist um and so there was a a period of of
years where I um had dual citizenship with the United States and the state of
Israel and um I lived in Israel for a time as a as an Israeli Citizen and um
and was able to uh support uh some Jewish Arab uh causes in in fact doing
an internship at the Center for Jewish Arab Economic Development where I actually took uh American and Canadian
Jewish donations and uh invested them in
um Arab companies inside Israel and so I've I've been uh that's been my
connection uh to uh Jewish Palestinian peacemaking uh but I do consider myself
uh a Zionist even though um I no longer have Israeli citizenship but I I I do
believe very much in the existence of a a Jewish and Democratic State and I'll
just leave it there that's awesome really appreciate it okay all right let's roll right into the conflict here
um I want to talk a little more specifically about what the conflict is and you know we I I feel that oftentimes
I'll watch a clip or something a news clip or or listen to someone talking
about the conflict and we kind of talk up here without a lot of people understanding I think some of the
fundamentals of of of what leads us to this point um Jabra is this a is this
more a land dispute between Israel and the Palestinians or is it more of an
ideological theological struggle that that is that is a great
question Greg so there are layers so it's not the the whole Palestinian
Israeli thing isn't a binary issue it might have started as such but it's no
longer is so to to understand that I mean I'll try to be to give you a quick
answer here to this so when the state of Israel was declared you so when the
United Nations uh did the partition plan in 1948 it was all about land you had you
had the Jews you had the Jews of Europe and you had the Jews of the Middle East and the Jews of the Middle East not many
people talk about is that we had in different Arab countries like Iraq Egypt
Lebanon Syria Yemen indogen Jewish populations and the hundreds hundreds of
thousands and starting in the 30s there were progams against them in those
countries where they were persecuted and unfortunately nobody talks about that a
lot but those people in in the 30s started being pushed out of those
countries or sometimes being held prisoners in in those countries let me interject real
quick sorry so some people don't understand that right when when the Jews were taken into uh Babylon right this is
the time of Lehi um they stayed there's actually very few people that came back from
Babylon and and came back to Jerusalem it was a small I think they say 40 44,000 something like that it's actually
right in the Bible most of the Jews stayed in Babylon the Persians today's
Iranians right they conquer Babylon and now the large Persian world is accessed
by the Jewish population in Babylon so they are in the diaspora that has always
been out in that area since that time yes with these Jewish populations and then as you say all of a sudden not all
of a sudden but you know in in the earlier part of the 20th century there there's some changes that are made yeah
and they are looking they are looking for refuge and even in the times of Muhammad you had Jewish Arab tribes
living in Medina and you know there were three big massive tribes that unfortunately were
were basically killed off by by the Muslims in
Medina as a part of the Muslim Mecca you know Wars of the period so you have all
of these Jews so you have in culminate in the 40s you have masses and masses of
Jews in the area looking for refuge and of course World War II ends and you have
the Jews of Europe looking for refuge and Palestine to them is the most uh
natural place to be right it's their ancestral land they have connections they have families they've been buying
lands from the Turks in Palestine since the 18 1800s and especially since the basil zus
conference in Switzerland and so you have this situation so it started as people looking for land and then you
have the Palestinians you have my people who are living on the land under the ottoman system now what many people
don't talk about too is that under the ottoman system it was a feudal system
where you had like one noble man who belonged to the ottoman classes and he
had Farmers living on the land and farming the land or working the land and you had these little Paras and they were
working there and they were split into What's called the tanzimat system where
basically every religious minority rules Itself by its own laws but you're all a
part of the Ottoman Empire and that's how it was so if you had land you were either given it by the ottoman or you
were leasing it from an ottoman and then you had a whole bunch of people living other Arabs other ottoman subjects
living in other part parts of the Ottoman Empire who were absentee landlords and so there was a lot of land
transactions but there was a lot of people like my ancestors you know they lived on the land they worked the land
they farmed the land but it they rarely own Deeds to it but you know they lived
on it so and there wasn't really that sense of identity among people until the
Ottomans left they were defeated World War I and that's when you had the French
and the British divide the whole region and you know they of course called that
region they called the what we call now Israel or the West Bank or Gaza they
called that place Palestine okay before the establishment of the state of Israel
so up to that point up to that partition plan when the United Nations said okay
the isra the Jews of the world get this part to be the their Homeland and the
Palestinians get this part you had land issues but the biggest the biggest
mistake that happened I think on my end on the Arab end is that the
partition plan the Arab leaders rejected the partition plan they rejected it
because to them you know this was Muslim land as it was ruled by the Ottomans so they thought oh we're Muslims so we have
to inherit it and rejected it and Wag the first war and now you had this that
war happen and it resulted in Israel taking even more than the partition plan
not a lot more but enough because there is this idea in Israeli military thinking of establishing buffers between
you and the neighbors and you're job are you talking about the 60 war no not yet this is this
is 48 oh back in 48 yes yeah this is 48 and then you have 53 the war of 53 when
the British and the French fought against Egypt to over the Su canal and Israel participated in that which you
know started put paved the way for the next cycle which is the sixth day war because
after 53 you had the NASA regime in Egypt and the nas regime spent I mean
gal ABD Nas spent most of his years in the presidency of Egypt agitating for a
war against Israel and understandably the Israelis would feel threatened a new
nation uh still weak still with old equipment and gear uh and you know the
six the sixth day war happened because of that agitation because of that
agitation and Egypt fired the first shot I mean Israel fired the first shot in
the war but Egypt agitated for it they closed the Tran the uh streets of Tran
and you know they they were planning that war yeah Israel basically is
looking at this at least the story is the Israelis were looking at this as a pro a a preventative measure yes to stop
the war and possible Annihilation and then they go and of course they take
over the West Bank they take over the gulan they take over the Sinai again with the idea of a buffer but the
interesting Nar ative that I started hearing from older Israelis that I
talked to is that when they took that land in ' 67 they had no intention of
keeping it the problem is and this is my perspective not many people will agree
with it it's based on my own studies the problem at the time was that the none of
the Arab countries the Egyptians didn't want the people of Gaza the jordanians
didn't want the Palestinians living in the West Bank because of the Soviet influence I mean I have uncles who were
Communists and socialists and the government of Jordan felt we they didn't
want that influence so they they never went back and said to the Israelis let's
negotiate about this let's have a peace agreement they just decided okay we're
not going to do anything we'll just keep this state of tension war and let's have
the Israelis manage this and that's where the you know what we call the occupation
ensued the historical circumstances so now you have more than the land issue
because now you have Jerusalem you have Israel building settlements of course in
the West Bank which those settlements you know if you look at the 1948
partition those settlements are against the 1948 partition Accords but they are
building settlements and now you're having a very complicated situation then you have the 1973 War which ends up in
more blood but it resulted in one good thing the 1973 war is that with the
defeat I mean it was sort of a semi- win for the Egyptians but it was more of a
defeat than a win and it ended up with Egypt having the Peace Tree and this way the Palestinians lose like
the biggest sort of ally or a strong Arab country standing by them so now
you're you're having all of these Slayers added to the conflict and then we have the osaw Accords in 1990 which
again the complicated things in the in the sense that both Israel and the
United States again this is a perspective that's contrary to what any
Palestinian would tell you but that's my perspective the biggest mistake was
bringing Arafat and the PLO to the West Bank and Gaza because what should have
happened at the time and this is something I've believed in since 1991 what should have happened at the
time is negotiating peace with the people who are already living in the West Bank in Gaza and keeping the PLO
out of it but the PLO comes in and they rule the region they rule the
area pretty much like any Arab government rules they come in you know you have this hierarchy the hierarchy
keeps keeps the aid keeps the gains rules in the corrupt Manner and of
course the government of Israel also made mistakes there which were sort of
using the PE because that was the idea I believe was using the Poo as the police
to police relas the West Bank yeah and of course the building of the settlements didn't
end and so now we have this complicated issue it's land and then it evolved
recently in the last 10 years or so it has evolved into more of a religious
conflict like as a Palestinian Christian I look at it I see more of the Islamic
you know Jihadi symbolism ideas overtaking the conflict and to where the
Palestinian Christians are marginalized and find themselves the ones on the inside living in in the West
Bank in Gaza they find themselves forced I feel to not come out and speak frankly about
the situation you know so that is as we see now you have all of these Palestinian churches issuing calls for
ceasefire but they don't mention the Israeli hostages and and they they don't dare
speak against against either Hamas or the Poo because they will be threatened their existence will especially since
Hamas came in 2006 it's to me it's turned much more ideological much more
religious much less about the land Hamas is very difficult as I've followed it to
you know it's hard to separate Hamas from like an Isis it's basically we want a global calipat this is about religion
uh and not only do we want Israel completely gone you know as the chants go out in the US on the campuses of of
you know from The River To The Sea exactly that that is a that is getting rid of Israel right and this is yeah and
this is this is like all of the vocabulary and you know in the past I've
done my share of river to the Sea and free Palestine and all of that but then
you know a few years ago I did my PhD and I started studying this in more
depth and looking at it in more depth and and Jason and I talked about this a lot what on on our end I think and we'll
probably talk about this some more the best the Israeli people are a people who
need two things for this I believe to move forward and this is a very easy
probably very easy would be very easy for the Arabs to give to them which is one recognition the recognition of
Israel's right to exist as a country within its own geography within its own
you know institutions ruling as they wish they need that self-determination because of not just
the Holocaust but also because of the programs that were committed against Jewish people both in the Arab world and
outside of the Arab world this this trauma runs deep in Jewish psyche and
Israeli psyche and when you look at it through their eyes they have an absolute
right to not trust anyone in the world after what happened to the Jewish people I mean this is like a 3,000 years Saga
where they are persecuted the cross so when you come out and you you give any hint that you don't want them to exist
it doesn't matter you know you have Arab American politicians coming out and saying oh when we say River to the Sea
we mean one state coexisting you know side to side in
peace when you look at it from the Israeli point of view well first you look at the state of the Arab
states in the Arab states there are no equal rights like it so far in 70 plus
years of Arab Independence since all of these countries became independent countries there is no equality or
coexistence like you're talking about for example you look at Jordan we look at
Jordan we think Jordan is a stable peaceful Etc country but you look on the
inside there are four classes of people in Jordan there is the native Jordanian then class number two is
Christian Jordanian and when I say Jordanian I mean someone from a native Jordanian tribe or family and then you
have the Muslim Palestinian and then finally and last Christian Palestinian
when you're a Mormon CHR Palestinian and Jordan you're at the bottom of the
bottom so when Israel is look at that and they say Okay River to the Sea
living next to each other neighbors one state but you've proven so far in 70
plus years of Independence in your own countries you don't even do that amongst yourselves right there is this system so
how can we trust that we can live with you River to the Sea right right right so what let me let me go over to Jason
here real quick just for a second Jason I'm sorry it's okay so Jason you've got according to what Jabra is saying here
you you know it it started off a little bit more as a land issue it's moved more
and more into an ideological and and Theological issue um I want to put
another explosive thing in here I think which is you say you're a
Zionist right so when that's added into the picture I want you to explain what you mean by what you mean by that yeah
and how that might be let's say triggering to the Palestinians and to
others yeah so first of all um there right there is secular Zionism and there
is religious Zionism um and there's also so I to look at it from
that point but then there's also revisionist Zionism and labor Zionism
okay um and and so let me introduce it and then I'll explain kind of where I
where I fit I I'll put it I'll put it you know to to entice everyone I I would
consider myself uh a religious labor Zionist so I'll explain what that means
um so uh first of all in Judaism
uh but also in the Church of Jesus Christ the latterday Saints which we can get to um right it is a commandment of
the Torah of the five books of Moses of the Revelation given at Mount Si and also
the Covenant between God and the Jewish people is a it's a it's a religious commandment to live and settle in the
land of Israel um the first person to do it was was Abraham from from a Jewish
point of view right Abraham is over in what is now modern day Iraq the UR of
the caldes and Abraham receives a commandment by God to go to the land
that I will show you and I will make you a great nation and you shall be a blessing and so Abraham picks up his
family and all of his resources and he moves to um to
Beva and he he buys some land and he settles there and he raises his family
and he he buries his wife Sarah in in KRON uh Hebron which is where we get the
the cave of Mela the Cave of the Patriarchs Abraham Isaac and Jacob and their uh their spouses are are buried
there um and so Abraham is this the first one to follow this commandment to
settle in the land of course there's an exile and then every Moses you've got Jo
you got Joseph and Moses come back um The Exodus is all about coming back to
the land that Abraham initially settled in so from a religious obligation uh there is this religious obligation for
Jews to settle and live in the land of Israel um from a uh then from a
prophetic perspective right there's this idea that the Jewish people must uh
immigrate and return to the land of Israel in the latter days um as latter
Saints we we believe this it's it's very clear in Joseph Smith and Orson Hyde and also many other presidents of the church
um so so there's this Gathering to and return uh but from my point of view when
you have immigrants you can't just you know have Anarchy right immigration even
in the history of the Church of Jesus Christ latterday Saints immigration has to be organized so there's a Zionist
movement that uh Jabra mentioned that that Theodore Herzel created to facilitate Jewish immigration to Israel
um and you can't just have Anarchy you can't just rely on and Jabra did a great
job uh you've got the Ottoman Empire it's an Empire okay is a Muslim empire
pretty pretty moderate Muslim empire compared to what Hamas and Isis want um
and then you have the British Empire right uh and then you have the
independent Jewish state um but from a Jewish point of view the Ottoman Empire
could not be trusted to keep Jewish immigrants safe and planted and neither
could the British Empire there's a whole history of uh the British limiting uh
reducing capping Jewish immigration uh and then also allowing all these you
know the Hebron riots in 1929 allowing right indigenous Jews and Palestinians
to to fight um and then there you know there was also murders um of Jews in the
land so you have to you have to have a a Jewish State um because you have to have
the apparatus of a state to protect and facilitate the Jewish Gathering and the
Jewish immigration so that's what I mean by Zionist yeah J so real quick I mean
you're you're aware I would gu I'm guessing you're aware that there are a number of people that that especially in
the church or that are Christian that go with The Narrative of
well yeah I believe in the Gathering of the Jews but that doesn't mean I believe in the state of
Israel right they completely separate you're saying they have to be one and the same well I'm saying that if you're
if you believe in the Gathering of the Jews who is going to protect the Jews that are
gathered the Ottoman Empire the British Empire the United States of America no
it's Jewish self-determination and that's why I believe that the Israel's Declaration of
Independence is inspired uh and and wise because it's it's creating an opport an
apparatus a structure an organization that can facilitate and protect the the
Jewish Gathering that Judaism supports uh but also Christian Zionism supports
um and and and I'm not saying that in an apocalyptic sense I'm just saying um if
Jews are going to immigrate how do you facilitate that you can't you cannot count on
other organizations or or states to take responsibility for that and so that it's
the necessity of a state of Israel okay so let me go beyond that real quick and
you're you're giving very much a theological I don't know about the labor part yet but you're giving theological
background of the Zionist what is the Practical point of this right go go beyond that a little bit and say well
what is the Practical issue here I mean you're talking about protection that's a practical issue right but when when here
because here's what happens right you have people that say that that use Zionist is a in a very pejorative manner
they do right very pejorative manner you're saying you're a Zionist um what
what is the secular point of view yeah for for Zionism if it's not theological
if it's not about Abraham it's not about the promised land what is the secular point of view for this right so then so
that's and why why is anti semitism so directly tied to that word
because it is absolutely Zionism right so so to so I just I I I'm gonna put I
put God first right put the kingdom of God first and then let uh all these
things shall come to you so now I can focus on the secular um and that is
really the debate between revisionist Zionism and labor Zionism okay and this
really came by with two leading figures uh Zev jabotinski in revisionist Zionism
and his kind of protege was manak bean and also uh Benjamin nanahu the leud
party it's all there's a genealogy of revisionist Zionism and then there's um
there's uh you know Theodore Herzel uh and there's uh David Ben gurian the
first prime minister of Israel um and uh you know I maybe ER laed is he's he's a
bit more moderate but there this idea of you know there are
zionists that are Zion who call for two states for two people right and that's a
little bit more in this the history of Labor Zionism and accepting partition which which jbra alluded to so this
debate now we're just talking secular and historical um there in
1922 uh the League of Nations the entire League of Nations at the time uh voted
and supported a a mandate for Palestine uh the Brit and they assigned the
British to supervise it and that was the entire land uh from The River To The Sea
and it's very clear in that legal document that that was that entire land
was going to be for a Jewish homeland and then there was also a mandate for
Trans Jordan on the East Bank of the Jordan River um so
the of course the the Zionist movement was excited trying to to after 1922 to
try to populate and get as much Jewish immigration to to fill this land um the
revisionists said we whether we get a majority or we don't get a
majority we are going a Jewish majority we are going to take claim of this
entire British mandate for Palestine and the the Arabs can go over to trans
Jordan on the East Bank um the labor Zionist said we really really want a Jewish and
Democratic state so they focused concentrating Jewish immigration in
areas where they could build a Jewish majority uh because they they knew the labor zionists always knew that that uh
we have to be ready for the possibility of partition and partition is not um a
unique thing the Indians and pakistanis also had to deal with Partition and it's it's worthwhile to explore how the
Indians and pakistanis dealt with that but the labor zionists were always trying to to figure out how do we have a
Jewish and Democratic State um and and they and and which may necessitate
partition because if you can't get a Jewish majority in certain portions of the historic land of Israel uh you may
have to partition that to a Palestinian state or an Arab State and that's why
the Labor zionists uh in 1948 uh well 194 they they were willing to accept the
United Nations partition plan and they did um and they they just
wanted a Jewish de and Democratic State wherever they could get it makum beagan and these those revisionists they
continued on to press for well no we have a claim to the entire land of
Israel um so when I say I'm like a religious labor Zionist I understand
number one uh the Jewish people have a claim to the entire land of Israel
because I mean heon is Right Hebron is in the Palestinian Authority but heon
you know it's where Abraham Isaac and Jacob are buried so obviously it's a sacred place for Jewish people but um
then we get the secular argument of it's got to be a Jewish and Democratic state so um should the state of Israel
exercise sovereignty over the entire land of Israel um that's where I kind of
pull back a little bit and I I I look at that what do you mean by the entire what do you mean by the entire land of Israel
The River To The Sea right the Jordan River on the East and the Mediterranean
on the west so that's why I'm including including Gaza including the West
Bank right because the revisionist Zionism will say this entire of Israel
there's a Jewish claim to it because Jews have even even in the 19 19th century and the 20th century there were
Jews in Kon uh there were Jews Hebron there were Jews in gion which is in
between um Jerusalem and Hebron and then e Jerusalem there's always been Jews in
Jerusalem so revisionist Zionism will say typically revisionist Zionism will
say no to partition um and they will will say we got to keep settling uh we
we got to keep pushing for the entire land and that's where you're saying that not Netanyahu would
be ultimately yaho is he's kind of the Bastion of revisionist Zionism he's so
he wants River to the Sea well he he also accepts uh he has right that's what
he what he's talking he's not claim he's not wanting to Annex everything so he's still working under the framework of the
oso Accord and when we talk about the op occupation uh it's very complicated right um I see
this military occupation but you've got and Jabra can can talk to this next
right you've got area a area B and area C area a is Palestinian Authority civil
and security control so pales in area a there's there's most mostly Palestinian
sovereignty in area a there's area B which is Palestinian Authority uh civil
control the judges the courts the schools uh the Civil Administration but
then uh Israel still has some security responsibilities in area B and then you
have area C which is Israeli civil and security control so the when we talk
about occupation it's it's extremely complicated uh there's actually three different pieces but this is what the is
is and the Palestinian Authority worked out in the Oslo cords um and so what what
Jabra and I are really talking about is is updating this um is updating this
peace process looking at area a and area B and area C and seeing how the
configuration could be better for Israelis and Palestinians okay so so
Jabra yeah what what do you think about the river to the Sea as compared to uh
the partitions well so as I said it's
impossible right now just because I believe that the Jews need to see maybe in a
hundred years but not now because Arabs all over and again I'm generalizing I
know this go on for another hundred years but as yeah but as someone who's lived in many Arab countries and lived
amongst many Arabs as a diaspora Palestinian I don't think the Arab mindset is ready
to have a society where there is a Jewish or a Christian ER I wouldn't say minority
like but they wouldn't as Muslims they are not capable of accepting rule by
Christians or Jews over them in all Arab countries the Quran is the basis of the
Constitutions and in the Quran it says you shall not have a Jew or a Christian above you or ruling over you so it's
it's unless there is some major ideological revolution in the Arab world
where we believe in equality representative democracy freedom of
conscience equality of people bu before the law until all of these happen
genuinely we can't have a river to the Sea of Jews and Palestinians so for
now a Jewish state is what needs to happen and to be honest the Israeli
state has proven to be extraordinary in integrating people
from all over the world including 20% of its population who are Arabs now the
situation isn't 100% perfect for those Arabs but they get equality before the
law they get civil rights they get to be represented in the keset etc etc now
what Jason was talking about with areas ab and C what's happening what happened because of the oso course and again
that's because Arafat and the PLO were in rush in 1990 to have any agreement
because you know they supported Saddam during the Gulf War and as a result all of their financial support was withdrawn
from Saudi and Kuwait and all of these Arab countries and Kuwait expelled
basically 300,000 Palestinians Arafat lost like my dad when we lived in
Kuwait you would pay $50 every month to the PLO they took it right out of your
paycheck the kuwaitis did whether you wanted it or not it was one of my dad's
pit peeves so they would take that money and then all of a sudden that money stopped
and he needed something else and that's why he rushed into Oslo and the people inside the
Palestinians who live like people like f Hussein just to name one or Hanan asrawi
who unfortunately you know has lived in now in the PLO tank for years so she can't
think different like she used to if those people would have been perfect to
negotiate with Israel and have a stable Democratic progressive
government the but the PLO came in and started this whole situation now they
didn't give they didn't prove in in the initial years Arafat walks in and he
starts you know when things don't happen immediately as he wanted even though I
think Israel responded at the time under Rabin and the joint Rabin Perot's
presidency or Premiership they responded nicely they relinquished many areas to
Arafat and the poo in Rapid succession but Arafat wanted things to end really
fast so when they didn't happen his way he
started agitating you know the second in the you know violence against against
settlers and all of these things started happening so that's where those areas a
b and c came from a were those areas that were released first and then B and C that Israel said okay well things
don't look stable so we're going to just keep some control over it and it
resulted in the Swiss cheese uh situation where you can't you don't have
one coherent piece of land that you can have sovereignty over or manage effectively and then of course after the
second intifa we you know had the wall which added another burden on the
Palestinians in terms of managing GL and I would say it was a problem created by
the second in which wasn't in hindsight it wasn't
necessary so I think right now and Omar berov and
I just saw this a couple of weeks ago Omar berov is a leading Holocaust studies scholar I forgot what he comes
out of but he's one of the leading Scholars on the subject he was asked what would you do in the situation and
he gave uh especially with all the settlements in the West Bank he said I
would have a situation where the Palestinians where you have sovereignty rights and residency rights so you have
a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza where the Palestinians have
sovereignty and residency rights and the Israeli settlers have Israeli
citizenship and they are under Israeli jurisdiction but they have residency in
the West Bank and we deal with this situation until you know the gradually
move into a situation where people can live together in one state in the West Bank not in Israel proper and I like
that solution I lik it I think especially after what's happened in the
last few weeks I think both Israelis and Palestinians need a period where they
reestablish trust and sort of a hard restart for
everything and the pal Ians focusing on building their institutions I think abas
is finished Hamas will be finished once Israel is done in Gaza and there needs
to be a hard reset in governance there needs to be good governance in the West
Bank and starting this process of establishing trust with with the Israelis and you
know I'm sure I'm sure that if the Israelis feel that they
are recognized that if Palestinians make first steps to feel them make them feel recognized and
safe Israelis will reciprocate but phrases like River to
the Sea right now I just watched the news clip actually right right before I talked to
you some uh some official sitting there giving a statement and behind him there
was a banner death to America death to Israel death to the Jews Allah abbar now
you look at this from an Israeli point of view and you're seeing this guy talking how are you going to feel you're
not going to have any Goodwill towards this person so there's no negotiation with that how do you have any negotiation with that you can't you
can't trust them you cannot trust them and that's why there needs to be a hard reset in governance the Israelis need to
stop like and this is a mistake that Israel has made for the last 30 years
what is that they used Palestinian differences to sort of divide and
conquer which is again understandable I understand that I look at it with
different eyes than I did 10 years ago or even five years ago but that needs to end what Israelis need to say is to say
okay we're done with the with the Palestinian Authority we're finished with Hamas never with those and let's
look inside Palestine let's look at leadership figures who do not not belong to the Palestinian authorities people
living there judges Progressive people and say okay we want you to form the
government we want you to have an election let it let's monitor it and you
elect your own authorities and let's start this a new let's let's reset it
okay yeah uh Jason Jabra was talking about this evolution of this starting off more is a
land dispute moving on to an ideological and religious
dispute from your point of view what what difference do you see is there
any Gap or how big is the gap between Hamas who's been there since 2006 and
the Palestinian people as a whole now Hamas was voted in apparently I don't
know exactly what that means but they were voted in uh and and and they've been there has not been a v since in
2006 so it's basically uh uh tyranny basically right
I mean you've got a dictatorship by a party there um with Hamas but what is
the difference between Hamas which is registered as a terrorist organization
in the US and the people of Palestine yeah thanks Greg
um right so in the 1993 Oslo Peace
process proc you we did have the the the labor Zionism was winning the day Yak
Rabin the the famous prime minister that was assassinated by a fellow Jew uh he
he was a Bastion of Labor Zionism but he's he's also a military commander so
he was all about number one Zionism is about Jewish Gathering Jewish return
Jewish immigration uh to to a set state with
secure borders uh and you know with the state of Israel protecting those those
immigrants that are gathering um and so uh but in that process which
was United States LED at the time uh which United States is always going to
have a role in this um and we could talk about that but uh the Palestinian
Liberation Organization which is the sole you know is in legal speak is the sole and legitimate representative of
the Palestinian people the right the Palestinian Liberation Organization despite the Decades of tear that yaser
Arafat inflicted on Israelis because yaser Arafat also had embraced The River
To The Sea but in the oso process the Palestinian Liberation Organization
recognized the existence of the state of Israel which is what Jabra is saying it
is crucial the the state the Israeli people the Jewish people have no
Palestinian partner unless the Palestinian partner accepts the the
state of Israel's existence that has that's that's number one it so you can't
you can't do anything with Hamas because Hamas you can't do anything so uh part
of American has got to be how do you build
up a Palestinian consensus that will just just accept Israel's right to exist um
and and there's different ways to do that and that's and that's the goal is possible then absolutely possible it's
absolutely in in the Oslo process it was the gears were working because you had
the PLO recognized Israel and you had labor Zionist labor Zionism leading the way but then as Jabra said you had the
second anata which Hamas came in in those days Hamas came in and start and
was responsible for over three quarters of the murders Hamas upset the peace
process and started just murdering indiscriminately Israeli civilians and
they upset and and guess what happened to Israeli Politics the labor zionists lost and the revisionist zionists and
the right-wing came into power and they've been there ever since and that's what Israeli politics is
responding to movements within the Palestinian Mo uh the Palestinian
Authority and the PLO so if you've got we've got to have the the the PLO and
the Palestinian Authority have got to be dominated by those who accept Israel's
right to exist that has got to happen because that would also moderate Israeli
politics and you could get back to that sweet spot where you had Yak Rabin who
was willing to work toward through the Oslo process I believe the Oslo process is all all we have uh we we have to
revive it but you've got to have a trustworthy Palestinian Authority to to
like job was saying to build the trust on the Israeli side so we can get we had people like Zippy Livy Zippy livney kept
saying two states for two people she was trying to she was she used to be a revisionist but then she accepted well
maybe maybe we you know I mean I could get into all the intricacies of this but
that's those are the partners that can actually make this happen so Jason in a in a let's say there was a two two State
solution right let's say it came to that and it started to get momentum right is that even is that a possibility for
Israel to exist in a two-state solution in other words originally I know that part of the uh Israel's grab especially
of Gaza was because of military issues that they where they feared Egypt right
and and coming in across above on Gaza they were afraid of that terrain and the
ability of of of Egypt to to attack in in that area can they is there a
possibility where you could say okay well we're we can give up these areas to an absolute sovereignty to these areas
and still feel as if we are safe well that that's why October 7th is
so dangerous because and and so undermining because Israel in 200
uh 2006 oh sorry 2005 Ariel Chiron who was
a revisionist right Ariel Chiron was the jabotinsky and monum bean Ariel Chiron
said I'm going to unilaterally disengage from Gaza and he pulled out all Israeli
military and he pulled out all Israeli civilian settlers he he pulled out the
state of Israel's apparatus out of Gaza and said okay we're going to let
Gaza Gaza is going to be area a right and if if we need to think in that way
and then what happened Hamas won Hamas started importing uh dual use uh
materials and also weapons I mean go how does Hamas still have Rockets after more
than 40 days of War um so Hamas just immediately turned to war making instead
of peacemaking and so that was a failure right Ariel Chiron you know he he
thought and so that's why this is so complicated because and then October 7th
there is there is a border Israel does have a border between Israel and Gaza
and Hamas terrorists penetrated the border and murdered Israelis in their
sleep so that so Israelis are are really worried about that there there's no
trust right even though we have this vision of two states for two peoples how do you how is Israel going to have
secure borders um I think many Israelis would like to have secure borders but
you've got to negotiate with a trustworthy Palestinian partner so that we can figure out the borders between
the two peoples jobra go ahead you had something to say yeah so so let let me there's a
lot of comments here so first of all about the the Palestinians and Hamas so
it's it's really interesting because Gaza before Hamas was one of the most
Progressive liberal parts of the Palestinian areas
and it's a mystery of mysteries how Islamic radicalism took hold there I I
still I've read so many things about it and I still can't figure out how that happened ER but like the whole
Palestinian Israeli thing is also an accumulation of things and that's why I'm more focused on the future and the
current situation how can we resolve it rather than looking at the history because you look at the history and
there are layers and layers that complicate understanding so and and it's
sort of like what's first the chicken or the egg right so you can look at what
Hamas did or what how what the poo did and then you talk to other Palestinians who live in in areas A and B and C and
in Gaza and they would say but you know we have the settlers coming in and burning our trees you know there are
cases of settlers coming and burning babies in their homes and there are
cases of is Settlers was coming in and like just this last this last uh Harvest
they prevented the Palestinians from harvesting their olives which is the main source of income for most people in
the west bank and then you have for example Israel to make sure to to when
they have when they want a lead from someone let's say they think you have a lead and you're not going to talk they
go and they arrest your child and I've seen videos and pictures of three-year-old children being arrested
by the IDF so that they forc their parents to turn them themselves in and give information and so you have all of
these Slayers that that cause anger and of course you have the wall I'm sure you've seen pictures of Palestinians
going through cages like in in Bethlehem for example so I told you my family is
from beala and Bethlehem my cousins and I used to go to it and walk you know
like it's a 15 minutes walk walk right now it takes you to walk it it takes you
over two hours so people who lived very close can't can't go and visit each
other because of the wall and because of the security fences and on one hand yes
this it is terrible and I see it from the Palestinian living inside's point of view but I also see it from an Israeli
point of you well are you going to come in and start stabbing people or running
over people with you with your car or throwing rocks or or or or so again
chicken and egg which comes first ER who started this in the end it's it to me it
doesn't it doesn't matter I think to me the best solution is for Palestinians to
because it's my side of things is to take radical responsibility and say what can we do regardless of who started this
regardless of what settlers are doing regardless of what the government of Israel who in power is doing let's take
radical responsibilities and look at what we can do to improve the situation
and my beef is that none that violence
has not worked Palestinians probably more than any nation that resisted you
know in history have used all forms of violence I can go through a long list of
violence that's terroristic non- terroristic and it has not worked old
methods of agitation has not worked and it just made the situation worse and this is a time when we need to think out
of the box laterally and to me that thinking is let's build relations of
trust with our Israeli neighbors let's be the ones to make that step take that
step first let's be the ones who are healing bombs and speaking peace and
building that relationship without even expecting reciprocity you don't do it because you
expect reciprocity you do it to basically in in our LDS language to show
a mighty change of heart you have to be convinced to do it respon personal responsibility personal responsibility
how can how can the Palestinian Authority fix the economy how can you build a system with Justice for All
equality before the law freedom of conscience you know freedom of worship freedom of speech ER I mean just the
other day and I don't say this to beat on the Palestinians I mean I'm not in their shoes living in there in those
difficult conditions but you watch a video of them arresting at The axam Masque arresting this young kid they put
a trash can over his head they beat him and extract a confession from him that
he is a spy for Israel and then they execute him and to me that that was the
epitome of you know what's wrong with the Palestinian side of things
now in in my thinking okay fine you found a spy you take him before a court
you give him a lawyer you you have a constitution you have laws prove your case against him behave as if you are a
civilized society not as if you're a mafia State you know behave like that
and then the Israelis would look at this and say oh okay they have rules they are
orderly people and that's what the Israelis are not see seeing now I mean
the Israelis look on the other side and they see billions and billions of dollars that came to Arafat and to
Mahmud Abbas and the poo and any Palestinian who's speaking honestly to you would like Palestinians amongst
themselves they would acknowledge this it's a government of Thieves and
Israelis look at that and say well it's a government of Thieves we can't trust them how can we trust they will provide
any how can they be honest with us if they are not honest amongst themselves
if all of this money and assistance coming in isn't used to build them up right so that's what needs that's what
needs to happen and just to let you know I mean I have I've pulled up a couple of
surveys even with What's Happening Now 50% of Palestinians don't believe I mean
let me see here so a poll conducted in October in 2023 by the Washington
Institute the majority of gazans uh were against breaking a
ceasefire with Israel and 70% of gazin supported a proposal for the Palestinian
Authority taking charge more than 50% more than 50% where is that
50% uh anyway agreed that should stop calling for Israel's destruction and
accept a permanent two-state solution based on the 1967 borders so I mean
there is still 50% who are against that but 50% is a good place to start and
that's what we need that's what we need to build on now I'm gonna track back Greg and I'm so sorry just before I
forget it go ahead so regarding Zionism and Jason did it's his field he did a
brilliant job but let me add a couple of things about it Zionism is a
nationalistic movement it's a product of the late 19th early 20th century when
people were building Nations I mean it's like Italian nationalism I mean there
was nothing called Italy until 18 I forgot until matr established the
Italian unity and there was a country called Italy Germany the same thing and Zionism wanted is a nationalistic
movement that wanted an National Homeland for the Jews and I've I've read Herzel and I actually find Herzel very
good to read because he talks about a state of Jews Arabs living together
farming the land working together that was the original Vision it wasn't it
wasn't necessarily a colonial settler you know in the lingo of today a
colonial settler movement it was hey we want to start the land that was have Jews and Arabs in it and what we have
self-determination so uh you know and it pains me to say this it
pains me to say this because again radical honesty and and self
responsibility I grew up in Kuwait and I grew up with you know some of the most
popular books were mine K and the protocols of the Elders of Zion this is
what my generation growing up was reading most popular books and the word
Zionist was used as sort pajora cuss word you wanted to even call another
Arab or you see another Arab and you think he's bad you call him a Zionist
and and it's not it's it's not based in
in the it's based basically in anti-Semitism it's not based on an
understanding of what the Zionist movement is now you have Z jensy you have the those
people they had more of a colonial settler perspective on things but the majority of the Zionist movement was of
the Theodore Herzel mode of things which is you know a bational sort of state
where Jews have self-determination and they are safe within borders J what what are your thoughts I
mean moving outside of Israel and Palestine moving to the United States where you have and other parts of the
west where where you have especially on the campuses the from The River To The Sea and you
have you know to me I I look at this I don't see how anyone can look at those
rallies listening to what the people are saying and seeing the hashtag free
Palestine from The River To The Sea and not understand that underlying all of
this is a complete eradication of Israel movement and and
anti-Semitism yes I I I mean I can understand you can you can have there are certainly issues with any state
there's issues with Israel it's like they've made mistakes they they do you've brought up some points that where
um you know I had another uh um Palestinian on last week on the show and you know some things that she grew up
with where it was very uncomfortable and she didn't agree with it and I understand that I get that right but but
this pH to me it's a phenomenon that we have especially in
Academia in the US where there is this movement of
anti-Semitism that is I think even the settler Colonial aspect of that is a
mask for anti-Semitism what where does why would this exist why does this
happen yeah so it's it's a d dilemma for me it's been for the last month and a
half to to understand this especially from Arab American students on American
campuses going to IV League schools I I can't fathom it and you know I've
started seeing it in in Twitter or x uh videos I've started seeing it on
Facebook the whole dialogue is started becoming nonc compromizing non-tolerant
it's very emotional of course it's driven by what's happening in Gaza but it's become very distressing when online
and social media and you know I'm a I'm a qualitative researcher I I look at people's words I look at what people
Project online in videos and iconography and that sort of stuff and uh it's been
the word to it is disgusting I've seen Arabs posting like
Nazis and Nazi Germany would like caricature
about gassing Jews using Nazi symbols and it
is it is heart-wrenching very disappointing and nonone
excusable I cry for the children of Gaza I just mourn for them it breaks my
heart but I would never allow myself to be so angry to be blinded and sink into
that abyss and Cesspool and embracing Nazi ideas now here is the and and I
wrote this about this and I wrote about and I wrote in a manner that is um kind
of sharp and sarcastic but Jews shouldn't and I say
this and hopefully you'll understand the context shouldn't fear this Arab
anti-Semitism because it and I wrote this I said it took the industrial might
of Nazi Germany to try and do something and they did not succeed and Arabs right
now are in such a state you know they can't even produce their own bicycle little alone you know produce you know
gas Chambers to eradicate Jews or anything like that so the Jews of the world are safe but the problem is those
feelings it is you know in Book of Mormon lingo these are are the Creeds
that people chose in the Book of Mormon chose not to write about these are the things that remained hidden that they
didn't want to spread or mention and it's because they are dangerous they are germs the those ideas are like germs and
they are worse than any any plague because virus yeah yeah I mean you're I
can't believe that people would use that like you refus to see the humanity in
this other person no matter what you thought of that person to talk about
gassing them to make fun of something so serious and so sad and disgusting as the
Holocaust and to inflict that on people I don't care what your causes and so the
students on campuses are baffling and the other phenomena that has been distressing to
me is seeing Arab demonstrators you you know resorting to
violence in the United States uh I've seen some videos of demonstrators prop
Palestine demonstrators removing the American flag you know doing things like that that shouldn't be the case that
shouldn't be the case and so it's just distressing Jason but condemn it Greg
yes yes appreciate that Jason what how should we be looking at this as latterday Saints because you're both
Latter-Day Saints you've both got a good knowledge about the conflict what's going on jobra you just brought up uh
some parallels with the Book of Mormon which I think are very apt um how should
we be looking at this as Latter-Day Saints I see in this not only parallels
to the Book of Mormon but what is the Christian approach to this
and regardless of whether you look at op pressor and victim in this
situation when you do not give the victim the chance to have personal
responsibility and to grow and to learn as well I think you are condemning them
in a sense you you are condemning them to a lack of growth and production in
their lives and and so for me you know what real quick for me the the latterday
S approach is on both sides it is not just a okay Israel's got the power and
and they can control this it is no you always have personal responsibility you
always have the ability yeah to make changes in a culture or to make changes in
yourself what do you see as the Latter-Day Saint approach and how should we look at this as Latter-Day Saints
yeah no thank you GRE and and and you you're touching on it and jabra's touched on it uh number one I think you
know we we must view all people Israelis and Palestinians as children of God as
created in the image of God um so we have to recognize the the Dignity of
each human being um and that each human being is a child of heavenly parents and
Adam and Eve and um and uh so starting from there um the
and J historically right Jabra hinted at this the Zionist movement when when when
Theodore Herzel uh started it in 1897
immediately um the the Jewish you know the the Zionist organization later
became the Jewish Agency for Israel built all of the institutions for a
Jewish and Democratic State uh there's an economic organization called the heistad drout which was like this
National Labor Union they built uh militias the hagana uh which later
became the Israel Defense Forces um they they built uh an education system um
they they built uh agricultural system right they built an on industry the
kibuts uh self uh self- sustaining um
self-reliant institutions that is what the Zionist movement did um just like
the Church of Jesus Christ the latterday Saints did in uh in in Utah right I mean
we could we could go back and we could call the Church of Jesus Christ the latterday Saints a settler Colonial Movement we we could go there if we want
that's that's my warning to latter St anti- Zionist if you want to go there
the Zionist movement is an indigenous you know Liberation movement but also a State Building movement and uh I know
that there are there are Palestinians that see that and they they've they've seen the Democracy that is Israel has
they've seen the State Building the problem is is that Hamas hijacked uh a
large portion of of the the Palestinian people and Hamas is only a terrorist
organization that's it they have said they do not want to build a state they
do not want to take care of their own the Palestinian people they just all they want they only exist to wage war on
Jews they've said that they they're not ashamed so what we need from a latterday
saint point of view if we really want to help the Palestinian people which we should because they're children of God
is we should help the Palestinian people build a functioning peaceful prosperous
State um it it's it's going to have to be peaceful uh it's going it's going to
have to start as entirely demilitarized I would love to see a day when a state of Israel and a state of
Palestine could defend themselves from Iran but because Iran is an existential
threat Jabra didn't mention this but an Iranian nuclear weapon is a big gas chamber that is meant to kill Jews and
also kill Palestinians so instead of letting the Iranians into the Palestinian
bubble Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad have just welcomed Iran in they
should reject that and an isra a state of Israel and a state of Palestine could work together for peace prosperity you
know goodness um and they could you know build what we consider to be Zion
together and that's why jobber are able to talk because we have a we have this idea of Zion of peace prosperity and
righteousness that we want to build in both of our peoples that's gonna be pretty tough to get Iran out of that
right I mean because they're not going to want to lose that edge yes it's the same idea with Hezbollah up north right
it's they're not going to want to lose that edge the timing of this October 7th is right when Saudi Arabia was coming in
and looking like they were going to be signing to the the Abraham Accords you know it's it's the same thing it's like
no we don't want this we don't want the peace there and especially Iran who is a rival to Saudi Arabia it's like
that I don't think that is a coincidence no the timing of this happened when it did and Greg you see and I told Jason
this before a few times the I wish on October 88th the situation was
completely different because the best opportunity of for peace in the whole
Middle East I believe was in October 8th if people were willing to think out of the box which is on October 8th you know
the Israeli military surrounds Gaza Cuts them off maybe hits some selected Hamas
targets but call the Saudis and say call the Islamic League call the gulf
Corporation Council here is the abrahamic Accords all of you recognize
the state of Israel's right to exist and basically we will take a different
course of action that doesn't involve full-blown attack on Gaza and I'm
willing to bet the Arab states would have responded because everyone knew
every Palestinian in the world on October 7th knew what the response would exactly be like including Hamas they
were counting on it and the way to disrupt their plan and to disrupt the Iranian plan would have been taking that
course but as Jason would Point Israel has a right to defend itself they there
are a government elected by people who expected to behave a certain way and something like that probably the
people you know in the evening of October 7th wouldn't have approved of but that would have been the best
opportunity for peace right there and then and you would have had all of those
GCC country is basically signing up I'm
almost certain of it but when we talk about you know a Latter Day Saint
approach for peace I rely on three things first there is this statement
from president kimbal from his Bicentennial speech in 1976 the 200
years of the United States he said something interesting and I think he meant it about humans in general not
just the not just America but he said we are a warlike people easily distracted
from our assignment of preparing for the coming of the Lord when enemies rise up
we commit vast resources to the fabrication of God's of stone and steel ships planes missiles fortifications and
depend on them for protection and deliverance when threatened we become anti- enemy instead of pro kingdom of
God and this is like I underline this with thick red lines we become anti-
enemy instead of pro kingdom of God we train men in The Art of War a man in The
Art of War and call him a patriot thus in the manner of Satan's counterfeit of true patriotism perverting the savior's
teaching love your enemies blessing that curse you Etc so the the first step a
latterday saint approach based on just this line is to say okay what can we do
and of course Muslims and Jews will not think Pro kingdom of God right but this is the latterday saint view of things if
Jason and I were representing the Palestinian Israeli side that's what how we'll probably look at it don't think
anti- enemy don't look at Jason and think Zionist enemy or settler Colonial
or rever to the Sea think what is best to build the kingdom of God what would
the Savior want this relationship to be like and you know president Nelson a
couple of conferences ago told us what that relationship should be like we
should we should have dialogue we should talk we should not resort to contention
it's very simple and that's one reason I choose to appear with Jason when we talk
about this because I want to model to Arab L Day Saints how this dialogue can go within
the framework of the Gospel that we can sit down and talk about this and we can find or suggest solutions to it from a
Latter-Day Sint perspective now the book of Mormon gives us two cases and these
are my favorite things my favorite platform and that
is one there is a story of the alma the Elder and the people of
lim if you remember he thus were the people of Noah and they move with Alma
they are going to zarla and on the way they settled this land and the priests
of Noah and the lame night control them and for a period of time the priests of
Noah prevent them from praying prevent them from doing anything and the the command that the Lord gives to the
people of Alma is bear your burdens with PE peace pray in your hearts do not use
violent resistance do not do any resistance at all continue working and
the second one is the famous case of the anti Nei Lehi they just were sick of
Bloodshed they were sick of killing others they bury their weapons and they say we're not going to say a word to
these people we're just going to kneel and surrender to them and let the work of death is the words of the Book of
Mormon let the work of Death happen if needs be but we're not shedding blood anymore and that is radical peacemaking
people look at that and they say that is not useful that is not practical because
your enemy might come in and it might your enemy might be Hitler and then you will kill six million Jews right but
at some point that enemy will stop because they will be sickened by it and
they will they will Resort they will either come to your side or they will
stop and they will leave you alone because no human and that's how by the
way speaking of Iran that was ayatollah's tactic against the Sha of
Iran in 1978 he basically asked his people to March against the per the soldiers of
the Sha and just be shut at and the soldiers of Shah kept shooting and then
they finally decided they've had enough and joined with the with the Revolution
and turned to's side it's just human nature so you know we I used to believe
okay we need to like boycott Deston sanctions and then I realized there is a
long antisemitic history of boycotts economic boycotts against Jews and that
doesn't play well that antagon Iz as Jews so when I say weapons of war in
this case I'm not saying not I'm saying nothing you do nothing you focus inside
you try to build yourself you take responsibility for your own situation
and you say what can I do within what I have to to build peace and you start
there but the key to it is starting with dialogue and I would say find the Jew
and be their friend you know your perspective will change find currently
my one of my best friends in the world is a is an ultra Orthodox settler Rabbi
in Israel and I talk to him on the phone several times a week and it started as an interes in Translation interes in
Torah and it evolved into a friendship and you know I love the man and uh you
know that's how you start seeing things from the other point of view is
friendship talking together you know peace it's a great great point I really appreciate the words from both of you um
I think this has been very effective I think it's very informative uh love
having both of you on I hope we can do this again and if this conflict continues which it looks like it will
maybe there will be some other perspectives and angles that we can speak on is there anything you want to finish off with very quickly before
we're done either of you I I just say thank you to Jabra
Jabra is is a a profile in moral and religious courage and uh it is important
to to hold to the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ latterday Saints that's that's one thing I'm very worried about
because uh um The Prophet Joseph Smith and Orson Hyde uh they they they wanted
a Jewish state to happen I mean uh the Orson Hy prayed for a a a distinct
nation and government um that does not preclude the existence of a Palestinian
state or any other Arab state but the idea was that the Jewish people should
uh should have a national home um and that's part of our Doctrine it's it's
part of the the Gathering of Israel um and I I want to see a way that is fair
uh for Jews and for Palestinians and that's why I'm just so grateful to Jabra for his his scholarship and his
compassion for the Jewish people um it it has to start with with purging
oneself of the anti-Semitism um but also on the Jewish side I condemn uh Mar kah uh he's he's
passed away but there's this whole idea of kinism which is is is uh very
anti-arab and anti- Palestinian um and I I reject that because I don't think it's
true to to the doctrines the Jews and Christians hold dear which is that every
single human being is is in the image of God and so um we have to find a way to
honor that uh and not denigrate anyone um so I'll just leave it there yeah and
and Greg I just want to say you know many people will watch this and if they are pro Palestinian or they are
Palestinians they would say you know there will be a backlash personally
because what I'm saying is considered high treason right but I'm not afraid of it here is why we
Palestinians have tried everything as I said and I think it's time to try something new it's time to reach out I
feel bad for the people of Gaza the civilians the children I know Israel made mistakes Jason would agree with me
you know as I said there is the children's arrest that is the wall that is you know all of these things but to
dwell on all of that stuff you you're never you're going to sit in a circle and you're going to be continually
blinded by hate and rage again in the Book of Mormon it talks about the traditions of the fathers the stories
that the fathers the lamanites were taught to hate the Nephites and I think
the best way to get the Palestinians to have progress is to get rid of this
mindset I want to read you one quick quote if I can from Abraham Lincoln I
was I was uh driving along the Pacific coast yesterday and listening to the radio and
this quote from Ab Lincoln who happens to be one of my heers he says the dogmas
of The Quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present the occasion is piled
high with difficulty and we must stes with the occasion as our Cas is new we
must think a new and act a new we must disenthrall ourselves and then we shall
save our country and and I was driving I looked at my wife and I said find me this quote because that is what I want
to tell every Palestinian it it's time to have new thoughts and new thinking and you know and I think love and peace
and loving our Jewish brothers and sisters is the key to that great appreciate both of you uh
let's make sure we do this again yeah sure absolutely and we need to talk to the Book of Mormon if you want we'll do
thanks so much thank you okay thank you