When Loved Ones Leave The Church

Tyler Anderson shares his research and observations on family members leaving the church. The dynamics have changed over the years. We need to understand that, usually, underlying it all is a different worldview, not just a disagreement.

 Raw Transcript

In this episode, Tyler Anderson shares his research on those that are disassociating with religion. We're now
up to about 27% of Americans that have no affiliation to religion whatsoever.
And you combine this with the family estrangement for especially Latter-day Saints where members of your family,
others families are leaving the church and maybe Christianity altogether. We're
living in a very different dynamic today than we used to. If you've had a family member leave the church, this episode is
for you. We learned that traditional social structures that we have in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints, such as missionary service and marriage, weekly sacrament meeting
attendance, these things no longer hold the same uh universal capacity
that used to bind families together. We're going to cover those dynamics as well. Now, this episode is brought to
you by Ultimate Holy Land. This is our trip to Israel. Our first trip for 2026 has already filled up. This is our
second trip. It will be happening March 29th to April 6th, 2026.
We are hitting all of the amazing spots. The Mount of Olives in Gethsemane, the traditional spot where John baptizes
Jesus at the River Jordan, the Sea of Galilee, Kuman and the Dead Sea Scrolls,
Bethlehem, and best of all, on Easter day, we will be visiting the Garden
Tomb. pretty amazing thing to have as part of your life resume. And for those
that choose, there's an add-on to Petra Jordan for two days afterward. Go to quickdia.com, cwicdmedia.com,
go up to trips and events, and scroll down to the ultimate holy land. Really like to have you there. Here we go.
All [Music]
right, Ty. So, how have you personally balanced staying active in the church while navigating your own family
dynamics? Well, I think everybody's experience in the church, every everyone's
relationship to uh to God and and their relationship with faith is all very
different. We all come from different experiences. We all have different worldviews. So for me,
I found a community in church. I found a community of like-minded people. I found
uh people in church that I think allowed me to realize a better
version of myself that I wasn't really getting in other places. And so for me,
the reason I've stayed active in the church is because I have found that faith community. I've found what I
consider to be my people. And I want my children and I want my family to have that same kind of support network uh as
as my children grow up and um as I continue to raise my family.
Okay. I'm going to quote something from your article that you have in public square magazine. you say disagreements
and I think this is I have not really thought of this directly in these terms of having family members that have left
the church. I mean I have but I like the way that you you frame this, right? You say disagreements stem less from
isolated issues and more from incompatible frameworks of truth,
authority, and meaning. These fractures manifest in painful misunderstandings
where moral differences are misread as personal rejection. And this is what
I've been saying for a long time. I I think it's so much of what is happening. We think about, okay, well, there's a
story about Joseph Smith or Brigham Young and we're going into some of the things in in church history or the book
of Abraham, you know, or something like this. And it's not that those things aren't inconsequential in people's testimonies, but
there so much is that we're in we've moved into a culture where world views
have have really changed especially for a younger generation and and I I think
that in in your article as you're talking about okay look how do you communicate with your family dynamics
when you have people have left the church if you don't understand that they are coming from a completely
different world view at times and this is something that they've absorbed or grabbed on to that you may have never
really been exposed to then it's hard to make that communication. Is that right?
Absolutely. So what will happen is when a person decides they no longer want to
affiliate with the church, there are all sorts of very complicated reasons why that might be. And I don't want to
overgeneralize uh about anyone and in any particular situation, but when you
make a decision to leave, ultimately you're going to have to land somewhere.
You need to be able to find a place where you
where you fit in. And for I think a lot of uh former members of the church, not
only member former members of our church, but exeangelicals and others, um
I think many of them find refuge in other places in secular places. I think
many of them often find res refuge in politics in in social issues whether
it's uh LGBT advocacy or uh any number of those different things and and
we are running into issues where we no longer are able to use the same
language. We no longer have that sort of commonality that we had before with
people. We no longer have the same framework. we're not even uh able to speak the same language because of the
fact that we are now using different frameworks to um to understand the
world. And so for former Latter-day Saints, they're finding a new place. And
uh overwhelmingly while there are some cases in which certain Latter-day Saints might go to a Protestant church or to a
Catholic church, uh many of the la the former Latter-day Saints that I'm running into um become unchurched. They
become agnostics, they become atheists, and their their passion, their their new
religion is essentially rooted in uh politics and those kinds of social
issues. Yeah. And so, you know, there's there are a number of things that, you know,
you sit down at Thanksgiving at the dinner table and you've got a lot of discrepancies in these views and and and
but politics really is entrenched in a lot of this. I mean,
it's, you know, when you come up with a new world view, and I think a lot of what we have is these new critical
theories that have come in in in in the last 25 years, especially little postmodernism, right? just create a
different view of the world. What it changes also is a lot a lot your morality to some
degree. Your morality, actual moral issues change. And so when you're talking to
someone and you're saying, "Well, why do you believe this?" Or or or you know, one of your kids for example, an adult
kid, and you're like, "I don't understand. This isn't right." And this, you know, and they're thinking on the
reverse side, no, you're wrong in your morality. It's so much deeper than just an issue
of of of well they just don't misunder they just have a misunderstanding about the church or they just have a
misunderstanding about the authority of the church which seems to be a big issue. So how do you bridge that? How do you
say I mean to me what I've tried to do for several years in and and not just with people that have left but create an
awareness of these different world views because I don't know I I I guess what
I'm asking you is is there an easier way than saying okay I'm going to watch someone for hours and hours on YouTube
to try and understand all these things or read a bunch of books to understand these other world views. Is there an
easier way to bridge that gap of of a a family member taking on a whole new
world view? Well, I think we we should be mindful of
the small things. And I think when you're when you're trying to bridge that
gap between you and maybe a a family member who has moved on from the church
or gone in a different direction, I think it's going to be really really important to remember those small
gestures. So, what are you doing to acknowledge them in your life? Are you
making them a priority in some way or another? Um, one of the things that I I
sometimes do is let's say I have a an estranged family member or somebody I don't I don't talk to very often. I look
for opportunities that might be natural opportunities to maybe strike up a
conversation. So, for a lot of people, a a good time to check in with friends that you haven't talked to in a long
time, especially through social media, is through like a little birthday message, something along those lines. Uh
for me, reaching out to a family member or to a friend that I haven't spoken to
in a long time, sending them a birthday text just as kind of a foot in the door to have a conversation uh seems to help
at least a little bit. It gives me an opportunity to strike up a conversation
that we might not otherwise have. And also, it's important to remember that not every single conversation that you
have with a family member that is no longer a member has to do with the church. Not every single conversation
has to be rooted in uh whether or not they are attending church, whether
they're not attending church or anything else. So, um think about them as individuals. So, what in their life
matters? I realize that to many Latter-day Saints and to me as well, church matters a great deal. But to
people who have moved on, there are other things that matter to them. So look for opportunities to ask questions
and have conversations about things that do matter to them. And if it's possible
to carefully steer away from those more contentious topics, that's perfectly fine. In communication studies, we call
that strategic topic avoidance. and it's a really good conflict management style.
Um, another thing that I would recommend that people do uh just from a devotional
aspect in terms of bridging that divide um is something that has brought me a
lot of peace and that is uh say a sincere prayer for all of your family
members regardless of whether they're active in the church or not. But but say sincere prayers for them. And sometimes
that means you are saying a prayer for someone who no longer believes in prayer, doesn't care about prayer,
thinks it's meaningless. Um, but for me, it's not so much about getting them to
change their hearts through prayer, but rather getting me to change my heart through prayer. So, how can I view these
people as the savior views them? How can I view them and treat them the way that
Jesus would treat them? And uh so for me bridging that divide is really just
those really small gestures as well as those kind of devotional gestures uh in
in praying for them that I think uh means a great deal. It also might mean
that you do set some boundaries. There might be some topics there might be some
issues that you decide maybe mutually or just you yourself decide you're not
going to talk about. But look for those areas of common ground. Look for those things that matter to them and then
prioritize those things that matter to them and take genuine interest in what they have to say. Um, another thing that
I would maybe recommend that we do, and I don't want to be too long-winded on this, but No, you're good. Another thing that I would really
recommend that people do is just listen. So if people want to have a conversation
with you, if you you have a family member or something that that uh wants to talk to you, listen to them. All
right? So listen to them with intent. Don't just uh listen for opportunities
to attack or respond or rebut or anything else, but listen to them. I think listening is a very therapeutic
thing. We don't necessarily have to agree. Uh but I do think that people feel validated and they feel uh
appreciated and and valued when we are showing that we are listening to them
and that we're showing them that what what they're saying to us matters to us,
that we're actually taking it into consideration. Those are just some things that I think can help to bridge
that divide that might exist between uh faithful members of the church and folks who have moved on.
You know, it's such a hard thing because, you know, you you've got some parents, right? And I'm going to say
maybe even more a mother who has just been so involved often times daytoday
with a child from the time they were very little. And you've got this goal, right? It's like it's the whole purpose
of your life. You know, if you're a faithful member and you're active and and and you're
like, "Okay, the goal here is we are going to have an eternal family. Exaltation is what we're looking for.
this is the where the greatest joy is. This is, you know, this is everything.
And and to have a child leave the church, then all of a sudden that whole
framework just falls apart and and it's heartbreaking, right? I know several
people that have gone through this. It's it's heartbreaking for them and it's very difficult to get over, right? It's
very difficult to get over and there could be even, you know, all sorts of emotions. You're angry, you're
frustrated, you're uh disappointed. That's a big one, right? Is I I think
that you're there's some personal experience here, too. But it's
are you disappointed in your child? And is that what's showing up most?
Right? I is that what's showing up most? Is your disappointment in the child? And
because they're going to know, they're going to feel that. And that's hard, right? Because in a sense, maybe
you are. It's a disappointment to your whole eternal plan. So
trying to put that to the side and instead just build your relationship
is is is a tough thing to do. But I think that's what you've got to do. Mhm. I I think for
for a lot of people, I mean, we as as Latter-day Saints, we we take very
seriously the command to be therefore perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect. And so, we we strive toward
uh certain elements of perfectionism. And I think uh Latter-day Saints especially can be very hard on
themselves. uh parents, siblings, anyone that's going through these kinds of situations can be very very hard on
themselves when all of a sudden they realize that their their family situation is no longer the ideal. It's
no longer perfect the way it was before. We have people that are going in different directions. Um if I can just
maybe give some some words of counsel when it comes from my own personal
experience. It took me a very very long time to be uh to be at peace with the
fact that my family was broken, that my fa my my family was fractured and that
my family was scattered. And so it's important I think to really understand
that uh you are not failing because of the fact that you know your family
doesn't look like the ideal and you're not necessarily weak. um for feeling
that you uh have to be loyal to your faith and should somehow uh love those
people who no longer um share your faith. And so, um, what I would maybe
recommend that you do is is first of all try to make peace with that
and and realize that it's okay to grieve and it's okay to feel a little bit
disoriented about that situation. Um, I also want to really emphasize the fact
that there are many people who have walked this road as well. Um,
understanding that this is a journey that literally thousands, tens of thousands of other Latter-day Saints
have been on is, uh, I think a very, um, encouraging thing for me at least to
know that I'm not alone, that other people are having a lot of these same sorts of feelings. Um, but I also
understand that, you know, the Savior knows what it means to be misunderstood.
He knows what it means to be rejected. Um, and he knows what it means to love
without being loved in return. And so, as we try to work toward and strive
toward trying to love people as uh the Savior loves them, I think a a good
thing to remember is just to recognize that you're not alone. that the Savior
has walked this path and uh that you you have hope and you have um encouragement
by the fact that other people have experienced this and that the Savior fully understands what you're going through as well.
Those good words, good words. Now, you've you've gone through several of these these polls that I've gone through
several times, and so you're referencing Pew, PRI, Gallup, Yuggov, and uh you
know, the these show they show not some they're not such great numbers. They're not great numbers
for family issues. They're not good great numbers for religious issues. There's a little bit of a tick up in the
last year or so on some things. uh as you've looked at all of this and and seen you know Christianity
especially in a broader view and and religion in a broader view going outside of the church and I think that's
important for also for people to understand this is not a church issue on its own right this is this is
something if you're looking at the US anyway and and and a lot of the western world but especially the US this is a
this is a trend that goes well beyond the church so a lot of people focus on well this is well it's because of uh the
patriarchy in the church or or it's because of a bishop or it's because of you know you're losing confidence in in
the prophet or the leaders of the church. It's like look all those things could be a part of it but in a broader view
there there's there's a cultural move away from religion and there's a cultural move away from some of the
family things that we believe in and and that is certainly playing a part I would think especially with social media and
an understanding of the internet uh in in in what is happening now if you've looked at these these these polls and
these studies is there any statistic there specifically that really struck you that really stood out to you.
Yeah, I would say that um looking specifically at the the number of people
going to church is a a really big one that's fallen under 50%. So, that's a huge number of people that are no longer
uh really doing much here. I've got some things pulled up that I was going to look at here really quick if that's
okay. Yeah. Um but uh 27% of Americans are now
claiming zero religious affiliation at all. So that's more than one in four
people are completely unchurched. And that's really significant to me because a a huge part of my moral framework has
been shaped by these kind of Judeo-Christian values that uh are
informed by the Bible and in the case of Latter-day Saints, by the Book of Mormon, Doctrine of Covenants and so on.
Um so there's no longer that shared language, that shared understanding of
what is good, what is right, what is wrong, and the reasons for why those things are right or wrong. So the the
moral frameworks were uh really starting to separate in really significant ways.
So 27% of Americans are now claiming uh zero uh religious affiliation at all,
which I think is really significant. Um and it's been a kind of downward trend
over the last 20 years that's kind of significant as well. Um, and I would also say that while I don't have
necessarily the numbers to exactly track like how many people are leaving the church or anything along those lines,
that is, you know, the LDS church, um, what I would say is that the typical
things that used to keep people in the church are no longer keeping them in the
church the way they did before. Mhm. So, it used to be that, you know, if you could get a person to graduate from
seminary, uh, go on a mission, get married in the temple, then there's a
really good chance that they're going to stay active and faithful for, you know, the rest of of their lives. Um, that's
no longer the case. Uh it's very very common for me to see people I know
whether they're people from uh from my mission from from uh people I grew up
with that are stepping away from the church and it's heartbreaking for me because I know that they have gone
through the the sort of check mark things that we would typically associate
with uh strengthening a person's testimony and staying active in the church. So
there is a a a big challenge I think to you know keep people in the church for
different reasons and people are staying in the church for different reasons. Um, I also, this isn't cited in the article,
but I uh was looking today at the the research that was done by the uh BH
Roberts Foundation in 2013 where they did a survey of like 2,000 former uh
both current and former members of the church. And I was just trying to identify like what are some some of the
key issues? What is driving people out of the church? and uh he was uh Josh
Coats and and uh Steven Craney and others that were uh involved in the uh
the research for this, they looked at like the questions, what
are the key issues that are like leading people out of the church? And of the 11
or 12 issues that they identified, um the only two statistically significant
ones that seem to be big indicators in causing people to leave the church are
going to be LGBT issues and uh in interestingly enough the book of Abraham. So there's like these two two
key issues and uh so for me it's I think
to to do further research on this I would love to try and understand uh in
more detail maybe looking at some of the research Jana Ree and other people have done um to try and understand what's
what's lead leading them out of the church. Um because if we if we don't understand what's leading them out of
the church, there's no way we're going to be able to uh to get them to stay necessarily.
Yeah. And I've looked at those. I've looked at all the the larger, you know, the studies that you've kind of gone
over here. I've looked at Janice Ree. Um there's some others uh the 10-year one
that Pew does on religion and and and to me there's a trend that goes through the whole thing and and it it really starts
to accelerate about the time that Jan Reese had published her book in I think 2019 I want to say but it it's it is
more that LGBTQ issue. I know the book of Abraham still kind of trails back there in 2013. That is an issue. There
are people that have issues with church history. Um, but I what what I see is
that these are secondary issues. Mhm. Right. You're you're you end up with more importantly I think as you're
describing here a different world view and then you start going into church history and maybe there's things you
don't like about Brigham Young or Joseph Smith or the Book of Abraham and these different things. You start putting that
filter that through a new filter that that you now have an issue with authority, right? and and how authority
acts within the church becomes a big push back for a lot of people. It's still a critical theory. It's it's
something, you know, victim and oppressor type of a dynamic that people fall into. And if you watch that and you
look at those trends, they they really strongly move toward that LGBTQ issue
and and and these critical theories of, you know, gender and and uh even
feminism and a lot of these different things that are really, you know, and that's not all it is. I mean, I I I
think lately, even in the last few years, maybe five or six years, you you you
know, that was those would be things if we're talking about things that are pulled in and where there's some discrepancy politically, those are
things that come in from the left, but from the right now, you're starting to get really a strong push back on several
things also. And I think that's going to increase because there are
certain ideas politically that just don't you think that they have always lined up with a church, but they they
maybe don't. Mhm. And and uh you know, the church is interested in the mission that it has.
They're not interested in a certain political value. Those political values
are born out of the mission of the church and and and and what they do. So,
but yeah, I think you're right. I think that that trajectory of a of a political
politics that come out of these new world views with these new morals, right, that are a little bit different
left and now increasingly on the right are are things that are really pulling
pulling away from from uh a testimony and a belief in what you
what you're doing. You know, it's interesting. I had a this was probably 2020. This would be
precoid maybe 2019. And I was sitting down with some professors at BYU and one of the interesting things is
that I think needs to be inserted into this discussion is they they weren't
looking they did a pretty large uh study on members of the church and they were
looking at not why people leave but why they come back and and the number one reason why people
do come back to the church is they miss their relationship with God.
And so that's another thing to kind of think about. Um that doesn't mean every time you talk
to them, are you praying? Are you going to church? Are you doing these things? That's probably not constructive, but it
is something to understand and to think about is is that, you know, uh, you
know, for example, I mean, if I'm a parent with a child that is that is not a part of the church anymore, one thing
I might pray about and hope for is simply a spiritual experience,
right? Can can you know I I'd love for my son or my daughter or my brother or
whoever it is to have spiritual experiences in this instead of trying to
say God I wish they'd just go to church or I wish they you know what is going to change their heart and and what is going
to uh help them develop again that that feeling and that need for a relationship
with God. Right. Um now you introduced the
phrase compassionate orthodoxy. I knew exactly what you meant by this when I when I read that. Uh but can you expand
on that just a little bit on what you mean by that? I think this has to do with how you you're going to treat a
member that has left family and otherwise uh in in bringing in kind of
two sides of the coin. Yes. So, uh, compassionate orthodoxy, it
seems kind of like an oxymoron because we would assume that these are two
things that are somewhat incompatible with each other. We often associate
orthodoxy with being very rigid and very stern and uncompromising. Um, I think
what I mean really by compassionate orthodoxy is not necessarily softening
our doctrinal stances on anything, but rather uh doing everything that we can
to small gestures, big gestures, anything that we can to
love more deeply uh our our family members or or friends
or any others who may have gone a different path. So compassionate orthodoxy for me means you are holding
to the truth while you are kind of keeping your your heart soft. So it's
sort of this this sort of faith plus tenderness. You're not compromising necessarily u but you are consecrating
your compassion for these individuals. And I think looking at them as as
children of God, they may not think of themselves as children of God anymore. They may not think that there is a God
anymore at all, but trying to view them as as God views them. Trying to treat
them as God treats them. Um, and I think for me
it can be very tempting to want to be critical of what uh other family members
are doing. It can be very tempting to me to want to uh to lash out at whatever it
is that you're doing. Um, but for me, compassionate orthodoxy means maybe
holding your tongue sometimes. You don't necessarily have to comment on
certain things. You can allow people to say whatever it is that they're going to say on social media or anything else.
You don't necessarily have to comment on that. Um, and I've also found that if I
do react negatively toward, you know, something that's posted or anything else, that can be a source of division.
So, instead, I try to look for those areas of commonality. where are we uh with with
uh our relationship, whatever it might be. Uh looking for those opportunities to uh to find that common ground with
them and and recognize that um I reject a binary. I I reject the idea that
um I cannot be a faithful Latter-day Saint and be a loving, caring sibling to
a a family member who has moved on from the church. But there are a lot of
people uh either in the church or out of the church that seem to think that those are contradictory that you can't have a
relationship with people who have left the church u because
your views are no longer compatible. And in my experience, I I have family members that uh I wish I had a better
relationship with uh that I I wish we talked more, but for various reasons we
don't. Um, but I've also had, I think, really good experiences reaching out to and and having a
relationship with uh at least one of my siblings who uh we text each other. We
we send each other funny reels and and different videos, things like that. Um,
I feel like we found a common language. We found an equilibrium that um not all
not all people are going to have. But look for that area of commonality. look for that equilibrium that you might have
with those other people and realize you don't have to compromise. You don't have to give up your membership in the
church. Um but you can still absolutely take genuine interest in in others who
have maybe moved on. Yeah. And I think you can you can sometimes I mean we're talking a lot about kind of being compassionate on
that side and that's crucial. Uh I I think that the orthodoxy side also is we
what I see sometimes I've seen a lot of friends that have had uh issues directly with this and you can you can you can do
one or the other. You can overdo one or the other. Mhm. Right. So so you can you can you can be
too orthodox in the sense that you're too judgmental on it and this has broken
everything. It's your fault. It's I'm disappointed. Right? All of these things. uh on the other end you can also
begin to compromise and and because to some degree you know
again if there is a moral there's no longer a moral equivalency between you in many things
and so you can be tempted to say I love my child I love my sibling I love my
parent whatever it is and therefore I'm going to accept
the action or the worldview or the morality of them so that I can show that
love. And I think that really I mean I what I've come to learn is that charity,
the pure love of Christ has both sides of that coin, right? He he's not going
to compromise. But but he's going to love beyond, right? He is going to love and and and
strengthen. and he may he may not affirm things but he is going to love you regardless and I think that's the most
important thing is I've if you begin to give up that
you know it's like look if I what have you sat down with your family member or
best friend or whoever it is and said look I love you no matter what I care
about you uh I want you to know that regardless I care about you I want you
to understand my position also. You know, I understand you've changed. You you've got these ideas and this is the
way you want to work your life and do everything. Hey, I love you. I love you no matter what, right? I also have a way
of looking at things. You're very familiar with that. And I'm not going to change that. I'm going to hold on to my
own beliefs and my own practices and and and and how I look at things while I
love you at the same time. Right? And and I don't know that that's always something that's
you know there there's there's like let's sit down and talk about this in this way where you can kind of set boundaries but also open up channels of
communication. Does that make sense? Yes. Yes. I I do think that for a lot of
people they take any kind of disagreement whether it's you know disagreeing on politics or disagreeing
on you know this particular social issue whatever it might be we have been
especially in the world of social media kind of preconditioned to take everything as
like a personal attack on ourselves that like because you disagree with me on
this particular issue you are rejecting me and you're rejecting my whole self. And there are a lot of people that get
into that kind of all or nothing uh type of thinking. And I think it can be
really damaging and really problematic. Uh either whether you're a member of the church doing it or or a person who's no
longer a member. Yeah, I think that's right. I think that's right. Uh
you give you bring up as we're talking about this compassionate orthodoxy, you bring up two thinkers
uh that I like both of them quite a bit. Terrell Given who I love listening to him or reading his books and Ralph
Hancock who's a very good friend of mine. Um how what did you what did you
gather from each of them? What what have you absorbed from each of them in their thinking and how that how does that apply to this this idea of compassionate
orthodoxy? One thing that that Given specifically talks about um is he
emphasizes that faith is something that is a chosen um relational trust rather than a kind
of intellectual ascent. So faith is something that is incredibly personal.
It's deeply personal and it's something that uh is sort of self-defin for a lot
of people. Um Ralph Hancock on the other hand is
a little bit more leaning toward hierarchy for a a place of authority for
for moral authority in particular. So he's going to emphasize the idea of of I
think relying on continuing revelation on relying on a hierarchy that can uh
not necessarily dictate but provide counsel for us in terms of the moral
frameworks that we should adopt in our lives and and what paths we should follow uh toward those things.
Okay. Yeah, I like both of them quite a bit. uh read most of their stuff on on both ends. What advice would you give,
let's say, to a parent who has an adult child who's left the church and now openly criticizes it?
Well, I I have family members that I can I can speak to personal experience with
uh both directly in my family, extended family and so on. If I can give any words of advice, I would say resist the
urge to comment on it. Resist the the urge necessarily to react to it because
I think in a lot of cases when a person is posting that kind of somewhat
inflammatory content, they're looking for a reaction and that kind of reaction is what is empowering to them. And so
when you don't necessarily react to it, you're sort of taking the teeth out of
what they were uh trying to do. So that's certainly one thing that I would I would potentially do. Another thing
that I would uh maybe a a word of counsel that I would maybe give to a a
parent who has a a wayward child is that you should take hope in and and great
confidence in the power of the new and everlasting covenant. Um, I I firmly
believe that when we are faithful, when we have entered into that covenant, when
you're you're sealed as husband and wife, that that covenant means something. It has power. And it has
power not only to bind the two people who have entered into that covenant, but it also has power to bind uh generations
and posterity together. And there have been several people in the past, I know
David A. Bednar and a few others have sort of referenced this. Uh I I know I
think maybe one of the earliest people to reference is it is uh Hebrew C. Kimble. But believe in the power of that
ceiling ordinance and believe in the power that somehow someway it's all
going to work out. Now I'm not necessarily a universalist. Not trying to say that a person is not going to be
held accountable for uh their transgressions or anything else. I'm not saying that at all. But I do say that I
I would say that uh we should believe in a God that is a lot more compassionate
than we might think he is. And I believe that the plan of salvation is
encompassing enough that there will be some kind of way for us to be back
together again somehow. Yeah, I would I think I I think I would add this. I would say
your love for that person matters. And I don't mean it just matters in in in your
relationship with that person. I don't not saying it just matters in whether or not they are uh you have you you're
somehow going to turn them quickly, you know, back to the church. But I think there's power in it and and and it may
be a long-term power. It may it may not be a short-term power. But I think that
living with a certain example and and keeping a strong relationship
as best that you can matters and and and I think it has consequences
that go well beyond maybe even this life into the following life. and and and
there is a bond that is built there also. So we can look at this from the framework of an an eternal covenant and
the Abrahamic covenant. But I think that actually infusing that with our own actions and
with our own love really kind of gives that power to it and an understanding of that. I I
agree with that. Uh final couple questions here. How
how is it that when you see a fractured family as we'll say a religiously fractured family
by not looking at it as a failure which is difficult for somebody it's like you can't get
over that hump right but it's if you don't look at that as a failure but as part of of again you as a
disciple and a responsibil and you have a responsibility for this relationship ship. How can that change your outlook?
I would say that you need to understand that
no family is perfect. We often engage in a lot of social comparison between us
and maybe that that one family in the ward that has
10 kids and they're all active in their church and they're all married in the temple. And yes, that that sometimes
happens. But the reality is for the vast majority of families in the church, they
are really messy. And so learning to live with the mess sometimes and make
peace with the mess is going to be something that uh can be really challenging. Another source of hope that
I found in examining this is uh to really go back to to the cosmic
beginning to go back to the council in heaven and recognize that there were uh
noble and great ones. There were choice spirits who uh existed with our heavenly
father before and who made a choice to take a different path. So even the most
all- knowing, all powerful, allloving being on earth has a fractured family.
And so it's a it's important to recognize that
you loving them is what's going to save you. You forgiving them, you being
compassionate toward them is what's going to shape you into a better disciple of Jesus Christ. And if that
leads them to uh take a path back toward the church, great. Uh if it doesn't,
have hope in the reality that perhaps somehow someway, someday it's all going
to work out. Finish with this. What advice would you
give someone who has left the church that is trying to keep a strong
relationship with a very believing family?
To any person who has left the church, I want you to remember that
even if your family is preachy to you, even if your family seems overbearing, even if they seem
like they're uncompromising, if you love them, if you show your love
toward them, I think they're going to show you love in return. If you can show patience and be understanding, it's
really, really hard for a person who speaks church as a native language to try and learn a new language. But if
you're patient toward them, I think they're going to be a lot more patient toward you. So, if you're a a former
member of the church, you've moved on, you've gone in different directions, uh realize that a a a prayer that a family
member gives for you is not necessarily a personal attack on you. They hold
sincere desires in their heart for your well-being. And uh I think regardless of
what path you take, I think the vast majority of active believing Latter-day
Saint families want you to be happy and want you to find joy in your life.
Great. Appreciate that. Well, this is a very applicable topic and and growing uh
you know, much further than we were before and we're probably going to go even further down that road in in the future. So, I think it's very good
advice. I think it's a good thing. It's a good topic for people to address and a lot of people just don't know what to do. You know, it's it's it's brand new
to someone that's supposed to happen to somebody else, but it's happening to quite a few of us and and it's it's more
common than you might think. That's I think that's a good a good way to look at it. So anyway, Ty, really appreciate it. Thanks for the research you've done
and for the article. For those that want to read that, I'll put a link in the description box uh over to Public Score
magazine. And uh appreciate everything. Thank you.
[Music]