The Real, Real Reason People Leave The Church

All the talk about why Latter-day Saints leave the church may be too superficial. There are underlying cultural issues in the US and the West we should be aware of and talking about. Even to our youth.

 Raw Transcript:

All right. So, this is a uh in the car walk for where are we at? May 23rd.
May 23rd, 2026.
I want to talk a little bit about the highly profiled and discussed topic of
why people leave the church. I am here in coming from let's see I guess I'm in Oram, Utah. I've been up here for a
couple of days checking out the facility for the Warriors of Tankham men's retreat in Rush Valley, Utah. And then
also in studio yesterday all day doing interviews. Had some great interviews, great discussions, uh along with some other things. It was
my wife's birthday. We celebrated up here. We've got uh celebrated with a son in Vegas. Drove up here from Phoenix.
And then uh and then I've got another daughter here in Provo. And so we spent time with her last night. Uh always
enjoy coming up here. I meet so many people. People mostly that I already know. When I say meet, I mean I meet
with so many people. And uh I I find myself coming up here more often than I
used to because uh just business and and communication and the channel kind of
requires it. Uh, this episode, by the way, is brought to you by the Warriors of Tiana Men's Retreat. This is something that is focused on gospel- centered masculinity.
It's something that's desperately needed. There is very little positive messaging to men. This is in a gospel framework. It is about being a better
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If you want to know more, go to the website at quickdia.com, cwycia.com, and go to the top two warriors to find out
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desperately, desperately needed in a world where messaging to men is void of
almost any positive messaging at this point. Uh, and that's inside and outside of the church. I want to talk about this
topic though of why people leave leave the church. I I've heard this now for several years.
I've got the advantage of having been doing this on a cultural side with a church for eight or nine years now. So,
I I use this example often, but I have been on the side of the railroad tracks watching the train go by and seeing the
changes and the speed and the direction and etc, etc. And and that makes a difference because I've seen so many
responses to this topic of why people leave the church.
And it's I I I I interviewed had a great interview with Jeff Strong yesterday who
who wrote the book Torn. Uh that'll be coming out shortly that interview.
Really enjoyed that. Uh there's some really good stuff in there. However, I do have some push back on on what he
says. And and here's the thing, you know, he's he's he's interviewing or or or surveying Latter-day Saints.
And and if you look at the numbers with Latter-day Saints, and I don't want to pull away the positives and and be cynical, but again, we need to be aware
really of actually what is reality and what is happening. We had an amazing conversion
uh baptismal year last year. I I don't remember the la exact number, but I think it's roughly 385,000 for 2025.
Unbelievable, right? I think the year before was like in the 320s, something like that. So, it's been ticking up.
However, so have the other traditional religions in Christianity, right, in the US. In the US, right? So,
you have things like Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity and uh Lutheran and and and Episcopalian and and and you
know, those more traditional, you know, even even the uh more conservative uh Pentecostals, etc. They also ticked way up in 2025.
So, we need to look at that and say, "Oh, we we talk about how the Lord is is is working his magic, so to speak, with the church." Okay, maybe that's the way it's done.
5 minutesBut we have to realize that more broadly, at least in the US, there is something happening
culturally that changes people's attention, focus, and openness to Christianity.
Right? that that's I I think that we would be putting our head in the sand if we said otherwise. Secondly, on the
other end at the bottom down here, we're losing people.
And I've seen this trend trend up and up and up, especially coming in through the millennials, that generation, especially
Gen Z, a little bit less. But you see this tick up of of people leaving the church
in the 40% range. Uh I saw one in the high30s and uh these are credible massive surveys studies that are done
right and and for Latter-day Saints and then and then many of the others trend up toward 45% and higher conversion rate
6 minutesor or or retention rate of you know first first and second year B people in the church after baptism as adults is closer to around 11%.
[snorts]
So you've got this other end here and and you have to say to yourself, okay, well, is that a unique thing to the church?
No, it also like all of the baptisms that is more we can be explained more broadly culturally,
there are also lots and lots and lots of people that are leaving their churches in Christianity in the United States. So
something is happening beyond being specific to the Latter-day Saints. And that's my biggest push back with Jeff is
is why are people going back? Well, this is what people are saying, right? And there he he gives the four main reasons being church history, which is very
interesting. It it is interesting because it's the internet, church history being at 42%. I do remember that number. So, it's by far the largest 42%.
7 minutesUh and then there was social issues.
Uh there is uh boy now I'm going to forget it. Uh social issues and then there's two
others. I'll I'll remember what they are. There's two others. And so these are the what the individuals that have left the church have marked and then
there's an other, right? He gives an other and you can put in what the other is. But 42% is church history. And yet
if you took that survey, the exact same survey of those questions, five
questions, four topics and then other, and instead of putting church history down, which is the biggest issue in
among the Latter-day Saints, you put down the biggest issue within the church of the Baptists, the Methodists, the
Episcopalians, etc., etc. Put down their biggest issue, whatever it is. And it's going to be very very similar.
It's going to be very similar. So when we look at this and we say, "Oh, the church history is the biggest issue." It's the biggest issue because there's
something underlying which is which is social media and the internet.
That that is a bigger deal. There is a cultural shift that we have right now where people are deconstructing. And
you've seen this online, especially in the mainstream, we'll call it Christianity circles where people go in and they are deconstructing their faith.
It's a very interesting choice of words because it comes, it's a post-modern word word, deconstruction, right? Going back to Jacqu Dereda.
And that's important to understand because that word and that postmodernism
permeates the United States today. And you add that in with another social cultural
phenomena of critical theory which academia is has been baptized in and has never even come out of. They're immersed
in critical theory and postmodernism and and and what you get is a cultural change. Our media is not the primary
mover and shaker of of our culture. It is not. It used to be it used to be way back when, but I would say since the 70s
and 80s, this is when postmodernism really came into into the academy and then critical theory had been there for two or three decades and really started
to fulment. You had uh Kimberly Krenshaw, you know, writing about critical race theory and writing her paper, I think in 1989 and then
intersectionality she also does two years later. I think it's 91. It might be 91 93, but I think it's 89 91. And
you know, academia just grabs onto this this they they they are they are immersed in critical theory and postmodernism and they are the ones that
move the needle culturally and they're in a silo. They're in their own silo and yet their influence is is
grand and the media really because because now we've got so many people going through college and we can say
well that's a great thing. I mean look the church teaches we all need a greater education and we all need we we want to become as educated as possible. That that's true but at what cost?
We need to take that into consideration.
I'm hoping that that's kind of what Pathway is for in a in a way is getting away from those philosophies of men that
are so uh uh pervasive throughout all of academia. But that it's academia that
moves the needle with media and then the media with the people and and that includes social media and everything else. So this word deconstruction is the
same thing that's happening with Latter-day Saints.
It is a cultural shift to critique as in critical theory and critique.
11 minutesThe word critical is not about critical thinking. That that's analysis. That's not what it is in academia.
Critique and even going back all the way to say Kant the philosopher Kant where where you get this verbiage starting to
come out. Uh critique in German is not about analysis. It's about tearing down.
That's really what it means. It means to tear down. And and usually there's nothing really a great solution in place
unless it's neo-Marxism or or some collective socialist state-run option.
And and so that's what Latter-day Saints are doing. They're doing the exact same thing. They are deconstructing, critiquing
their religion. And so you see this in in the social circle or or in in in our society today where loss of
institutional trust is is at an all-time high because and again I think it is technology technology has been the mover
and shaker for almost everything even coming in through and what it does is it softens the soil enriches the soil for
these philosophies of men and and for things to for for human nature the downside of human nature to
grab onto these philosophies for example uh um you know tearing up the family everything had to do with
tearing up the family or gender or identity those are those are driven in many ways by transitioning right for
example or the pill I don't think there's anything technologically until maybe the internet will provide will
will show it as strong or maybe AI the next generation of of computing right maybe AI will prove that it's been as
strong as as the pill, but I don't think there's any technological advancement.
I'm putting that in quotes that has changed the world more. And and I don't mean short term. I mean breaking
up the family and and and breaking up, you know, uh uh the order of God, so to speak, that we might see in the Garden of Eden account, for example.
So, so these technologies and and what we have with the internet, they allow for these philosophies of men to to
apply more to human nature because of convenience, because of ease
and we want a better lifestyle and this the technology seems to help create a fertile soil for these things. And then
the internet of course in social media allows for these ideas to be transmitted
to others very very easily. And at a surface level some of them seem great.
They seem really good. I mean you see this happening here in Utah.
unbelievably large amounts of people that are grabbing on to this postmodernism and critical theory and and this idea of the the carrot of
untethered empathy, you know, in front of them and and and leaving truth and justice uh and order behind them and just untethering the empathy completely.
That's that's happening a lot here. It's happening all over but but it's for whatever reason I don't know if that somehow the church
has created uh you know not maliciously of course but it produces a place for
because of that empathy right to to be fostered in a way that at
first might seem positive but is not and it's it's misplaced right it gets
moved to the wrong places. And maybe that's because we want to be good people, right? We want to be nice. And and we have a very much a niceness
culture in the church. And I'm going to say unfortunately unfortunately we want to move through truth. We want
to create and move through truth and order and mercy at the same time and keep those two sides together. Right?
Mercy and judgment. They need to be they need to work in tandem. Not one not just one on not not just mercy not just you
know Jesus for example has always been st it's always been stated that he is full
of truth and grace so he has to have both you have to have the truth
so I people leaving the church and this deconstruction I went off a little tangent there and and this deconstruction is not just
about the Latter-day Saints and even critics of the church that come in and say, "See the the church history and oh, look at Joseph Smith or polygamy
or or fennial or whatever it is, whatever." Our numbers are similar to what the rest of Christianity's numbers
are. So, they're not looking at the right place either, right? They're not looking at the right place. There are issues underlying all
of this. And if church history is the biggest issue for the church and people saying that that's what they're living for, whatever the biggest issue is in
the other denominations that they have to deconstruct or critique about their denomination, whether it be policy,
doctrine, history, whatever it is, you put that in place of the church of our church history and you're going to get a
very similar result. Now, we are a little bit better. We're a little bit better at retention than most, if not
all of Christianity. We're a little bit better at growth than most and at times than all of Christianity. We used to be
at the top of that list. We're good at a lot of things. We really are good at a lot of things. Study, knowledge of the
gospel, knowledge of the scriptures. Um, we do a phenomenal job with this relative to everybody else. Phenomenal
17 minutesjobs with these things. and and and so those things are working really well.
But culture, these underlying issues of the culture are what we should be talking about and what we should be
warning about our children and our grandchildren about these cultural issues and
contrasting those cultural issues of anything that goes against family of anything that goes against
the plan of salvation and the covenant path. I saw it was called the gospel path recently. We'll we'll see if that ends up changing to gospel path from covenant path with President Oaks.
But that's where we need to focus. That's the issue.
It it is and that's where we should be putting out warnings to other Latter-day Saints and really to
all of the world especially in the West about these cultural uh um movements and and philosophies
that are assuring west the western western society and Christianity as a whole.
So that's the push back I would have on on on all of this talk about it gets all dialed in on the church.
Look, that that's importance to understand what is pertinent to us. But the problems are down here. They're down
below. They're cultural issues that we need to talk about. The philosophies of men. It it's it's how are we how how has
postmodernism? How has critical theory changed the way we think about things, the way we think about institutions, our trust level with authority?
Um, and then how have we reacted to those things? Because now you have, of course, the right, you know, I'm talking about
these things on the left. The right is always reactionary because they're looking more for a status quo. And you have to have both. You have to be able
19 minutesto move through society and create through time. You can't be stagnant. You have to create. And that to me is the
role of the left. It talks it's more about look going into this chaos a little bit. We have to be creative and we have to learn to adapt to certain
things. But where it gets out of hand is where they lose the core principles
of the gospel. where they allow the liberalism of these other areas that are
needed for creation through time for that same thing to be to morph and
deconstruct core truths, eternal truths like the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the identity and nature of God,
the identity and nature of mankind, the covenant path, truth and mercy.
and and and that's what is happening right now, right? We are losing those those core doctrines as they morph into
something else. And this is exactly what postmodernism has created. It is that is what it is requires.
Jacqu Derry da uh you know a French postmodernist not a good dude. These are not good
dudes. you know, Jacqu Terry Dah, Michelle Fuko, Fish, all these guys look into their lives. Michelle Fuko is the
most uh referenced scholar in in all of scholarship in the US.
And and this guy is that's another podcast. I've talked about this before, but Jean Terry Da retired from UCI, UC Irvine, University of California,
Irvine. That's where he was at the end of his life. and he was interviewed I think it was in the 2000s he passed away somewhere somewhere shortly after this
and he they asked him you know he's one of the fathers of postmodernism which is basically creating a relative
truth there's no objective truth and everything is about power it's very similar to critical theory it's just a variation really in my mind even though
there's they push against each other or they say they push against each other they have the same goal and
he says you My whole life has been dedicated to uh what were the words he used? It
was because I haven't referenced this in a while. It was, you know, basically to to upend
language to to turn it on its head basically is what he said. So taking words and
changing them into something else, you know, like like the ASU professor that came to BYU and told everyone when
they read the Book of Mormon, when you read the word iniquity having to do with, you know, sin, I want you instead
to read inequity, which is the perfect encapsulation of postmodernism.
It's about class distinctions and it's not about the savior and and your personal salvation.
That and and that's what we're doing.
Those are those are issues that are underlying all of these problems and why people are leaving the church. And and we need to address that better.
I need to do this better. I I used to focus on this a lot more, but
we need to do this better. We need the church, I think, you know, we need to be talking about these things a lot more, especially online where these things can really be discussed.
What is the actual root problem here?
Because all is not well in Zion. We want it to be and we get, you know, excited about progress with the church. And I
do, of course, and that's natural and we should we should be excited about things. The the the temple I'm going to the visitor center today up in Salt
Lake. That's exciting. I'm really excited to go look at this and and and see what they're doing.
Um, and the missionary program is amazing. I mean, look what they're doing now. Look at all these baptisms and the and the things that are happening. And
actually, there's a turn in Europe where people are getting baptized like they haven't. These are all really exciting things.
But those core issues need to be addressed. And and those are the real problems, the psychological, philosophical issues underlying the reasons for people leaving the church.
And and we need to address that a lot better. Thanks fo